What does "Siu Lim Tau" mean?

[TenTigers]

What does it actually mean,(not so much how the words translate literally, but figuratively as well) and why was that name chosen?
I believe in some cases, the name of the set often tells alot, similarly to the kuen kuit.

[Eric_H]

Hello TenTigers,

In Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun Kuen 红花义詠春拳 we have two variations on that term.

Siu Nim Tao - Little idea in the beginning
Siu Lin Tao - Little drilling in the beginning

I believe the Yip Man lines use "Siu Nim Tao" only. Many consider it to merely be a pronunciation difference, for my family that is not the case.

Take Care,
~Eric

[t_niehoff]

"Siu" translates into small, compact, without waste.

"Nim" translates into immersing yourself in the study of a subject; "Lien" refers to training.

"Tao" refers to your head.

Putting it all together, you get the message to put in your head to study or train in using small, compact movements.

FWIW, it was Yip Man who changed the name of the first form from Siu Lien Tao to Siu Nim Tao, and other branches of WCK have adopted that change. Apparently when Sum Nung learned that Yip had changed the names of WCK's first two forms, he is said to have commented along the lines of "that's not bad."

[Vajramusti]

What does it actually mean,(not so much how the words translate literally, but figuratively as well) and why was that name chosen?
I believe in some cases, the name of the set often tells alot, similarly to the kuen kuit.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. pronunciations can vary region to region-Fatshan Toishan etc and strictly literal translation
can by pass "tacit knowledge" which can help understand a serious subject.And there can be various levels of understanding the meaning of sil lim tau

2.At a basic level it's about embedding a starting fundamental idea of the art of wing chun in oneself- once embedded properly, the idea grows with proper practice, awareness, application and experience, and is no longer little... it becomes vast and open ended.Quieten the mind, internalize the understanding by doing things correctly. Aspects of kuen kuit point towards doing sil lim tau correctly.

joy chaudhuri

[Lee Chiang Po]

It was told to me as "Use Your Imagination", by a man that spoke Canton. Use your head, use your imagination. Would do tan sao left, right, left, right, left, right. Over a hundred times, Then punch left, right, left, right. Over a hundred times. Bong sao left, right, mid level, high level, low level, over a hundred times. Anything you need to work on, put it into Sil Lim and do it multiple times. You do not have to have a set form. You can add and take away as you need to add and take away. Just use a little imagination.

[Phil Redmond]

Just like in any language there are varied levels of comprehension. Just because a person speaks a language it doesn't make them an academic in their own native tongue. Knowing this I asked to different University Professors of Chinese to explain to me what SNT meant.
The one in Detroit spoke Cantonese and after having thought for a while gave me the example of an old newspaper cartoon character with a balloon over his head with a light bulb. Implying that said character had an idea. So he said it's like having multiple detailed concepts in your tauh (head). Ok, that still didn't quite do it for me.
Then I moved to NJ. At the NJ school we have a Chinese Professor teaching Mandarin classes. After seeing the Chinese characters for Siu Nihm Tauh he thought for a while and said epiphany. It's like having small epiphanies in your head or contemplating small details

[Xiao3 Meng4]

I learned it as "little idea." To me, this means basic Martial ideas. SLT can therefore be a basic progression of fighting ideas, expressed in shadow boxing form.

[bennyvt]

i have little idea what it means.

[chusauli]

It means "A little presence in the moment as a foundation".

It also means to get out of your own way.

Make the "Little" me come into the grand nature, and put that first.

It is a failure to not live up to Siu Nim Tao.

[mikelee]

Here's a crazy different take:

- siulim (shaolin in fujian dialect)

- tao (thought or way)

The Way of Shaolin?

[chusauli]

Here's a crazy different take:

- siulim (shaolin in fujian dialect)

- tao (thought or way)

The Way of Shaolin?


Sorry, that is totally wrong. The Chinese characters are not what you mention. Who is your teacher? If that is what he/she taught you, you are taught something totally incorrect.

[LoneTiger108]

... Then I moved to NJ. At the NJ school we have a Chinese Professor teaching Mandarin classes. After seeing the Chinese characters for Siu Nihm Tauh he thought for a while and said epiphany. It's like having small epiphanies in your head or contemplating small details

I like this interpretation as it reflects the simplest explanation of what all three characters mean as one whole. But I would still explain to a new student that it basically translates as "Little Idea".


2.At a basic level it's about embedding a starting fundamental idea of the art of wing chun in oneself- once embedded properly, the idea grows with proper practice, awareness, application and experience, and is no longer little... it becomes vast and open ended.Quieten the mind, internalize the understanding by doing things correctly. Aspects of kuen kuit point towards doing sil lim tau correctly.

Also an excellent way of describing the purpose of SLT and why it's mostly used at the beginning of a students training in Wing Chun.

FWIW I was often told that without Siu Lim Tao there can be no Chum Kiu, no Chum Kiu no Biu Jii so I'd guess that this little idea has some very important knowledge locked within it. Somewhere!

[Lee Chiang Po]

Just like in any language there are varied levels of comprehension. Jus because a person speaks a language it doesn't make them an academic in their own native tongue. Knowing this I asked to different University Professors of Chinese to explain to me what SNT meant.
The one in Detroit spoke Cantonese and after having thought for a while gave me the example of an old newspaper cartoon character with a ballon over his head with a light bulb. Implying that said character had an idea. So he said it's like having multiple detailed concepts in your tauh (head). Ok, that still didn't quite do it for me.
Then I moved to NJ. At the NJ school we have a Chinese Professor teaching Mandarin classes. After seeing the Chinese characters for Siu Nihm Tauh he thought for a while and said epiphany. It's like having small epiphanies in your head or contemplating small details


Is this not the very same thing as using your imagination? Just put into different words?

[LoneTiger108]

Anything you need to work on, put it into Sil Lim and do it multiple times. You do not have to have a set form. You can add and take away as you need to add and take away. Just use a little imagination.

Very interesting too, as it sounds like we were taught by the same guy!

Although I have to say, I was always under the impression that Ip Man himself 'took everything away' and stripped the set back to it's basics we commonly see today SO you can't take away any more but you can add as much or as little as you please. ;)

[Lee Chiang Po]

Sil Lim is simple. So simple that what you see is what you get. There is nothing hidden within it. No secrets. We can alter it or leave it be, depending upon our needs. I have altered and added techniques, repeated techniques over and over, all sorts of things that I might have had trouble with. It is a very simple training aid that habituates your actions to be the same every time you apply them. Trying to read too much into it is going to make it far too complicated. It should not be complicated at all, but remain as simple as you can possibly make it.
I think people try to see hidden information in the moves, but what they are looking at are concepts that can be applied to various situations, but these are not secret or hidden. You just have to use a little imagination.

LCP

[Lee Chiang Po]

Sil Lim is simple. So simple that what you see is what you get. There is nothing hidden within it. No secrets. We can alter it or leave it be, depending upon our needs. I have altered and added techniques, repeated techniques over and over, all sorts of things that I might have had trouble with. It is a very simple training aid that habituates your actions to be the same every time you apply them. Trying to read too much into it is going to make it far too complicated. It should not be complicated at all, but remain as simple as you can possibly make it.
I think people try to see hidden information in the moves, but what they are looking at are concepts that can be applied to various situations, but these are not secret or hidden. You just have to use a little imagination.

LCP

[dirtyrat]

It means "A little presence in the moment as a foundation".

It also means to get out of your own way.

Make the "Little" me come into the grand nature, and put that first.

It is a failure to not live up to Siu Nim Tao.

I like that definition. :cool:

Would you be so kind as to elaborate on how you came to that interpretation?

Thanks!

[Hendrik]

Siu means Minute, detail, subtle

Lien means training

Tau means essential


So,

Siu Lien Tau = Essential of Minute/Detail/subtle training.


In today's word, it means the devil is in the details training.






According to evidence, we now know:

Siu of Siu Lien Tau was inherit from the Siu Training of Emei 12 Zhuang.

In Emei 12 Zhuang, Siu training is to train using the intention to subdue both one's own mind and the enemy. In this training, it uses fast Qi and Jing operation with the emphasis on all things source from the minute details.




Also, this training is to train to know the details and subtle so that one could liberate or remove one's limitation.

This is a set give birth to unlimited applications via one liberates or remove one's limitation.


So, why is it not training applications? because every application is a limit. and to have no limit means one needs to be unbound. and Thus, again, the training is suppose to remove one's limitation in mind and body.

It is via this remove of one's limitation one be able to make use of everyting without be tie up by a certain concept or certain move.

However, for past 100 years or so, this set has become a training of tie oneself up instead of librate oneself to unleast the power of unbound and using a minute move or effortless to dissolve the incoming attack.


SLT is not a basic set but an advance set. an advance set to help one remove one's limitation into formless. Thus, it said come accept goes let it, using silence to lead action.

The training of SLT is a journey of liberation toward boundless. the lesser one's limitation the closer one could do the come accept.... and thus the closer one to the silence.

It is an un ended journey but keep refining in every practice. It is not doing something to meet certain criterial or form or shape.

The core of training it is as simple as at every move can one be mindfully aware with the mind quiet and totally effortless to move the physical with ease.


This quiet mind and effortless physical with ease are the weapon one cultivate and carry with one when facing challenge. Not some robotic programing applications or structure. It is about let go and let GOD be.

The reason of it is fast in response because there is lesser and lesser limit or obstrucle in mind and body after one keep training with it.

The reason it can resolve incoming force with ease and effortless because it doesnt create limitation for oneself in term of mind and body and it doesnt bewitch by others' move or momentum, nothing fix thus everything flow.


Why Qi is also train in this set? because when the body is loosing up, the mind quiet down, the breathing deepen, Qi realm got to surface to aid one to have better handling of one's body inward.



That simple, let go and let God be, but most cant do it.

Happiness/Freedom = Simple
Struggle = complex

If your training doesnt lead you to the Happiness and Freedom, try my simple path and see for yourself.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2nxr...eature=related

誰在懸崖沏一壺茶
溫熱前世的牽掛　

[chusauli]

I like that definition. :cool:

Would you be so kind as to elaborate on how you came to that interpretation?

Thanks!

Siu = small, but one is represented by one's self is small; what counts is the great or Buddha Nature...

Nim = composed of 2 characters: Present mind

Tao = the head, the start, the foundation.

[Lee Chiang Po]

Siu means Minute, detail, subtle

Lien means training

Tau means essential


So,

Siu Lien Tau = Essential of Minute/Detail/subtle training.


In today's word, it means the devil is in the details training.









According to evidence, we now know:

Siu of Siu Lien Tau was inherit from the Siu Training of Emei 12 Zhuang.

In Emei 12 Zhuang, Siu training is to train using the intention to subdue both one's own mind and the enemy. In this training, it uses fast Qi and Jing operation with the emphasis on all things source from the minute details.




Also, this training is to train to know the details and subtle so that one could liberate or remove one's limitation.

This is a set give birth to unlimited applications via one liberates or remove one's limitation.


So, why is it not training applications? because every application is a limit. and to have no limit means one needs to be unbound. and Thus, again, the training is suppose to remove one's limitation in mind and body.

It is via this remove of one's limitation one be able to make use of everyting without be tie up by a certain concept or certain move.

However, for past 100 years or so, this set has become a training of tie oneself up instead of librate oneself to unleast the power of unbound and using a minute move or effortless to dissolve the incoming attack.


SLT is not a basic set but an advance set. an advance set to help one remove one's limitation into formless. Thus, it said come accept goes let it, using silence to lead action.

The training of SLT is a journey of liberation toward boundless. the lesser one's limitation the closer one could do the come accept.... and thus the closer one to the silence.

It is an un ended journey but keep refining in every practice. It is not doing something to meet certain criterial or form or shape.

The core of training it is as simple as at every move can one be mindfully aware with the mind quiet and totally effortless to move the physical with ease.


This quiet mind and effortless physical with ease are the weapon one cultivate and carry with one when facing challenge. Not some robotic programing applications or structure. It is about let go and let GOD be.

The reason of it is fast in response because there is lesser and lesser limit or obstrucle in mind and body after one keep training with it.

The reason it can resolve incoming force with ease and effortless because it doesnt create limitation for oneself in term of mind and body and it doesnt bewitch by others' move or momentum, nothing fix thus everything flow.


Why Qi is also train in this set? because when the body is loosing up, the mind quiet down, the breathing deepen, Qi realm got to surface to aid one to have better handling of one's body inward.



That simple, let go and let God be, but most cant do it.

Happiness/Freedom = Simple
Struggle = complex

If your training doesnt lead you to the Happiness and Freedom, try my simple path and see for yourself.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2nxr...eature=related

誰在懸崖沏一壺茶
溫熱前世的牽掛　


This is what I mean by complicated. This is enough to confuse anyone. I have read this over and over in order to be fair in my assessment, but I have to say that I am still just as confused. Sil Lim is not ment to be complicated. It is ment to be simple. Simple is best understood, where complicated is seldom understood.
Everything has a beginning. Everything. Even Wing Chun training. Sil Lim is the beginning. It is a simple hand form where one links all his hand techniques in a chain and trains them going from one to the next, left and then right, so that both hands get the same training. It teaches the new trainee how to apply his techniques by doing them over and over. The day comes when it is no longer as necessary as it is in the beginning. You then move to the next forms.

[Phil Redmond]

Here's a crazy different take:

- siulim (shaolin in fujian dialect)

- tao (thought or way)

The Way of Shaolin?
You're refering to siu-lum/shao-lin.
We are speaking about completely different characters.
The Tao you used for 'way/path' is not the same character as tauh 'head'
In Cantonese the same word can be said in different tones and have different meanings and characters.

[Hendrik]

This is what I mean by complicated. This is enough to confuse anyone. I have read this over and over in order to be fair in my assessment, but I have to say that I am still just as confused. Sil Lim is not ment to be complicated. It is ment to be simple. Simple is best understood, where complicated is seldom understood.
Everything has a beginning. Everything. Even Wing Chun training. Sil Lim is the beginning. It is a simple hand form where one links all his hand techniques in a chain and trains them going from one to the next, left and then right, so that both hands get the same training. It teaches the new trainee how to apply his techniques by doing them over and over. The day comes when it is no longer as necessary as it is in the beginning. You then move to the next forms.



Seriously, do you know why it is so complicated for you?

Simply because you keep using your mind to figure out what I post. and your mind doesnt have the answer because your mind dont know.

quiet your mind and what I post above will reveal in front of you effortlessly. dont figure out, let go and let things surface by itself. Similar to doing Chi Sau, cant go the path of trying to figure things out.

If you cant stop trying to figure out you cant get to where it is.


Keeping using your mind the way you do will block you off from knowing Qi and awareness. you become the slave of your own mind programing.

[sihing]

This is what I mean by complicated. This is enough to confuse anyone. I have read this over and over in order to be fair in my assessment, but I have to say that I am still just as confused. Sil Lim is not ment to be complicated. It is ment to be simple. Simple is best understood, where complicated is seldom understood.
Everything has a beginning. Everything. Even Wing Chun training. Sil Lim is the beginning. It is a simple hand form where one links all his hand techniques in a chain and trains them going from one to the next, left and then right, so that both hands get the same training. It teaches the new trainee how to apply his techniques by doing them over and over. The day comes when it is no longer as necessary as it is in the beginning. You then move to the next forms.

In my experience I'm finding that the development and learning of the tools that WC provides is anything but simple. It's complex and precise. The ability to bring it about, once learned is the easy part. When one is learning how to punch thru the WC system, lots of things are happening at the same time. There's lower body alignment and balance (what is your hips and torso doing at this time), this has too be coordinated with your elbow initiation and movement as well, since this is what leads our upper body strikes, not a simple process. Eventually one learns this so that it is natural (kinda like first learning how to crawl, walk and then run). Once it is natural you wonder what the big deal was learning it.

The way I've been taught to think about Siu Nim Tau, is too look at it as a "Young Idea" being brought about into one's awareness and movement. One learns to feel what the body is doing by putting it into unnatural places and stances. All of it is uncomfortable in the beginning, but soon you learn to relax into it. Then you learn the young idea of intention and what the purpose is of things. People think that YJKYMA is a fighting stance. It is not, rather it is teaching one to become aware of there lower body, angles and structures, while training alone, reminders persay. In the upper body, one learns that the elbow has to initiate all the arm movements, this is done in a still environment, so that total focus can be placed on the elbow bringing the arm out in tan, back in wu and out again X3 for fok sau. The ability to focus, learned in the 1st section of the form, is used again and again in other training drills thru out the system.

James

[dirtyrat]

Siu means Minute, detail, subtle

Lien means training

Tau means essential


So,

Siu Lien Tau = Essential of Minute/Detail/subtle training.


In today's word, it means the devil is in the details training.






According to evidence, we now know:

Siu of Siu Lien Tau was inherit from the Siu Training of Emei 12 Zhuang.

In Emei 12 Zhuang, Siu training is to train using the intention to subdue both one's own mind and the enemy. In this training, it uses fast Qi and Jing operation with the emphasis on all things source from the minute details.




Also, this training is to train to know the details and subtle so that one could liberate or remove one's limitation.

This is a set give birth to unlimited applications via one liberates or remove one's limitation.


So, why is it not training applications? because every application is a limit. and to have no limit means one needs to be unbound. and Thus, again, the training is suppose to remove one's limitation in mind and body.

It is via this remove of one's limitation one be able to make use of everyting without be tie up by a certain concept or certain move.

However, for past 100 years or so, this set has become a training of tie oneself up instead of librate oneself to unleast the power of unbound and using a minute move or effortless to dissolve the incoming attack.


SLT is not a basic set but an advance set. an advance set to help one remove one's limitation into formless. Thus, it said come accept goes let it, using silence to lead action.

The training of SLT is a journey of liberation toward boundless. the lesser one's limitation the closer one could do the come accept.... and thus the closer one to the silence.

It is an un ended journey but keep refining in every practice. It is not doing something to meet certain criterial or form or shape.

The core of training it is as simple as at every move can one be mindfully aware with the mind quiet and totally effortless to move the physical with ease.


This quiet mind and effortless physical with ease are the weapon one cultivate and carry with one when facing challenge. Not some robotic programing applications or structure. It is about let go and let GOD be.

The reason of it is fast in response because there is lesser and lesser limit or obstrucle in mind and body after one keep training with it.

The reason it can resolve incoming force with ease and effortless because it doesnt create limitation for oneself in term of mind and body and it doesnt bewitch by others' move or momentum, nothing fix thus everything flow.


Why Qi is also train in this set? because when the body is loosing up, the mind quiet down, the breathing deepen, Qi realm got to surface to aid one to have better handling of one's body inward.



That simple, let go and let God be, but most cant do it.

Happiness/Freedom = Simple
Struggle = complex

If your training doesnt lead you to the Happiness and Freedom, try my simple path and see for yourself.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2nxr...eature=related

誰在懸崖沏一壺茶
溫熱前世的牽掛　

Christ, I actually understood that!!! LOL!

[LoneTiger108]

Siu means Minute, detail, subtle

Lien means training

Tau means essential


So,

Siu Lien Tau = Essential of Minute/Detail/subtle training.


In today's word, it means the devil is in the details training.

Well Hendrik, now you have translated the Su Lien Tao, how about the Siu Lim Tao this thread was about?? :confused:

I can understand what you're saying in relation to the way we can practice the SLT (by letting go etc) but when you say this it seems confusing (and I like Lee CP believe this form should be kept simple)


SLT is not a basic set but an advance set. an advance set to help one remove one's limitation into formless. Thus, it said come accept goes let it, using silence to lead action...

... It is an un ended journey but keep refining in every practice. It is not doing something to meet certain criterial or form or shape.

Firstly, the kuit you use 'come accept etc' is specifically related to interactive practice (chi sau) and not intended for SLT FME although I can see how it could be I think that would cause confusion.

Just as your final comment about having 'no shape or form' seems a bit strange as we all have similar 'looking' versions of SLT.

Now, if you're just talking of the practice of 'Siu' (as you explain originates from Emei) then I see what you're saying. But I personally feel this could also be misread/interpreted wrongly as it sounds to me like you're saying the SLT form itself (as practised by millions) need not exist at all :eek:

[wtxs]

Seriously, do you know why it is so complicated for you?

Simply because you keep using your mind to figure out what I post. and your mind doesnt have the answer because your mind dont know.

quiet your mind and what I post above will reveal in front of you effortlessly. dont figure out, let go and let things surface by itself. Similar to doing Chi Sau, cant go the path of trying to figure things out.

If you cant stop trying to figure out you cant get to where it is.


Keeping using your mind the way you do will block you off from knowing Qi and awareness. you become the slave of your own mind programing.


The famous Foghorn Leghorn sayings: Lookit here son, I said son ... I'm trying to learn you some thing here. :p

[Hendrik]

Well Hendrik, now you have translated the Su Lien Tao, how about the Siu Lim Tao this thread was about?? :confused: ------


My WCK lineage doing Siu LIen Tao. so that is how I answer.

I dont know Siu Lim Tao.





I can understand what you're saying in relation to the way we can practice the SLT (by letting go etc) but when you say this it seems confusing (and I like Lee CP believe this form should be kept simple) ------




Moving a finger is simple? How simple is the Nature of moving a finger? the Intention made, the blood flow, the muscle ...., ..etc?

Nature careless if a human think it is simple or not.







Firstly, the kuit you use 'come accept etc' is specifically related to interactive practice (chi sau) and not intended for SLT FME although I can see how it could be I think that would cause confusion.



There is no confusion.

This Kuit if it is used specifically related to practice Chi sau and not intended for SLT doesnt making any sense at all.

This Kuit is for real life applications from mind to body at all time. 24/7/365.




It is clear

Comes accept means non resistance in MIND and body. If one Resist one stuck.
Dont believe me?

Think of something you dont like and feel how your mind resist it and create all kind of tension and sensation in your chest or abdoment or head.....etc



Next time when you go to the restorant, and the waiter bring you food which you are not order. practice come accept...... Just says thanks and let is passed.
not create all kind of resistance and angle..... and waste of energy.

How the heck is one with this type of resistance state be lively and flow?
It is self damaging.




So, it is a key to train in SLT to not get into this type of state. That is what the Kuit is for.

Again, it is simple when one knows it. otherwise it is complicate because the mind doesnt have the answer.





Just as your final comment about having 'no shape or form' seems a bit strange as we all have similar 'looking' versions of SLT.


No shape or form doesnt mean not shape or form, I am a human I have shape and form. even water has shape or form.

No Shape or form means not attached to any shape or form. and not resistance to any shape or form.






Now, if you're just talking of the practice of 'Siu' (as you explain originates from Emei) then I see what you're saying.

But I personally feel this could also be misread/interpreted wrongly as it sounds to me like you're saying the SLT form itself (as practised by millions) need not exist at all :eek:


From the angle of spinning mind speculation, you are certainly right.


Life is interesting isnt it?

[Hendrik]

The famous Foghorn Leghorn sayings: Lookit here son, I said son ... I'm trying to learn you some thing here. :p



Dont mimic anything.

As the famous internal art ancient sifu said, your art is dead if you mimic me.


What you keep posting thinking I am open a subject and watch others to debate or fight is actually your own thinking not what it is.

If fact I am starting a evolution that everyone will be benifit from the exchange and chaos as how the nature suppose to be, contradict to what your thinking think.

So, a smart man must not trap himself by his own mind.

[Lee Chiang Po]

Seriously, do you know why it is so complicated for you?

Simply because you keep using your mind to figure out what I post. and your mind doesnt have the answer because your mind dont know.

quiet your mind and what I post above will reveal in front of you effortlessly. dont figure out, let go and let things surface by itself. Similar to doing Chi Sau, cant go the path of trying to figure things out.

If you cant stop trying to figure out you cant get to where it is.


Keeping using your mind the way you do will block you off from knowing Qi and awareness. you become the slave of your own mind programing.

Hendrik, I have no problem understanding Sil Lim. My problem is trying to understand your words. You make it complicated with all the stuff you refer to. Sil Lim is not complicated at all. It is easy to understand what it is and what it can do for you. It is when one tries to make it complicated that it becomes so.
I know about Chi, or Qi if you will. I know a great deal about my Wing Chun. I do have a problem understanding what others sometimes say, and especially when they speak in terms that are not direct and to the point. When talking with you, one has to work his way through the riddles first, and then attempt to determine exactly what it is you were saying. That is where my confusion is, not in understanding Sil Lim. I have been a practitioner for over 50 years now, and I think I would have learned something about my Wing Chun by now, wouldn't you think?

[Lee Chiang Po]

The famous Foghorn Leghorn sayings: Lookit here son, I said son ... I'm trying to learn you some thing here. :p

I sometimes think I am in a cartoon. I must be stupid as dirt because I don't understand anything he just told me. I am not sure it even refers to what I was saying anyway.

[dirtyrat]

I sometimes think I am in a cartoon. I must be stupid as dirt because I don't understand anything he just told me. I am not sure it even refers to what I was saying anyway.

The things he say can be summed up to a few sentences. In fact, most of the things he talk about can applied to a lot of things in life not just kung fu or wing chun in particular.

One of the things he's talking about is freeing the mind, so that a fighter will respond spontaneously to any situation he comes across. As opposed to a fighter who can only reacts like a robot. That fighter never learn to think for himself, so his art is never truly alive.

[Hendrik]

The things he say can be summed up to a few sentences. In fact, most of the things he talk about can applied to a lot of things in life not just kung fu or wing chun in particular.

One of the things he's talking about is freeing the mind, so that a fighter will respond spontaneously to any situation he comes across. As opposed to a fighter who can only reacts like a robot. That fighter never learn to think for himself, so his art is never truly alive.



Yup, one got to get that from the SLT training, otherwise it is pulling reverse gear and get one stuck in all situation.

If one keep asking " am I do it right? is this tan right? my sifu told me this way ...... I need to put forward presure......" those are dead trap due to trapping in one's mind and lost in touch with reality or liveliness. those type of training makes one a robot and cant response lively. One can spend a life time with this mislead way and will not get much out of it beyond mimicing and lost contact with the reality. To be best they are good performer mimic-ing a beautiful dance.

The difficult part is get to quiet down the mind, until then one usually not realized one keep thinking even though one claim one is calm and quiet....and meditate......

[Lee Chiang Po]

The things he say can be summed up to a few sentences. In fact, most of the things he talk about can applied to a lot of things in life not just kung fu or wing chun in particular.

One of the things he's talking about is freeing the mind, so that a fighter will respond spontaneously to any situation he comes across. As opposed to a fighter who can only reacts like a robot. That fighter never learn to think for himself, so his art is never truly alive.

Now see the difference? You said it in just 2 short paragraphs what it took him a full page to do. I can understand what you just said to me. If Hendrik could do this it would make so much more sense to someone like myself. It is so much easier when you know what a person is saying rather then have to first figure out what he has said. Thanks

[Lee Chiang Po]

Yup, one got to get that from the SLT training, otherwise it is pulling reverse gear and get one stuck in all situation.

If one keep asking " am I do it right? is this tan right? my sifu told me this way ...... I need to put forward presure......" those are dead trap due to trapping in one's mind and lost in touch with reality or liveliness. those type of training makes one a robot and cant response lively. One can spend a life time with this mislead way and will not get much out of it beyond mimicing and lost contact with the reality. To be best they are good performer mimic-ing a beautiful dance.

The difficult part is get to quiet down the mind, until then one usually not realized one keep thinking even though one claim one is calm and quiet....and meditate......

I think this is pretty much what I was saying. I did Sil Lim over and over and over and over, fast and slow. I took each section and did it seperately. I did it until I did not have to even think about it. I just responded to a situation out of pure habit rather than have to think about it. I can do that today. It is engrained into me. Even if a different situation dictates a different action, it is still without thought.
As for meditation, I do that all the time. I can do something in my mind over and over until I can do it flawlessly in reality. Some people meditate different from others. Some simply clear the mind so that their thoughts become fresh. I meditate by using my imagination. Thinking if you will. But Sil Lim I have no problem understanding.

[k gledhill]

concentrating on the finger will make you miss all that heavenly glory....

SLT = Genius at work ...genius in its simplicity... seeing genius takes little time, while mastery of it, a lifetime in the pursuit of its perfection.

The longer you wait the longer it will take to see it....Philipp Bayer may be coming to New York early August :D If you want to see genius at work ...you need not look elsewhere.:D

[wtxs]

Dont mimic anything.

As the famous internal art ancient sifu said, your art is dead if you mimic me.


What you keep posting thinking I am open a subject and watch others to debate or fight is actually your own thinking not what it is.


If fact I am starting a evolution that everyone will be benifit from the exchange and chaos as how the nature suppose to be, contradict to what your thinking think.


So, a smart man must not trap himself by his own mind.




- Some times the quote{s} is used to illustrate a point, or inject some humor to help calm the situation at hand, we 're all guilty of prostitute it.

- I would not be alone in safely saying that is your MO {mode of operation}, and it can be seen all over this forum. Don't think of what I think that you think I'm thinking, because your mind can't know what I think.

- Fact is, WC has been on its evolutionary journey since inception. It needs not to be championed. We are to uphold its banner, pass it on to the next generation.

- To appreciate the silence, one must first quiet ones mind. A smart man can not be trap by his own mind...for he's too smart to be fooled.

[Hendrik]

-

- Fact is, WC has been on its evolutionary journey since inception. It needs not to be championed. We are to uphold its banner, pass it on to the next generation.




青山旧 雨初歇 豪情却 向谁说

　　机遇难赊

　　东风且暂借

　　流年似水足印难重叠

　　赤壁难辨

　　风流云散处

　　只剩下当时明月

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uaWRwRdW6zs

[wtxs]

青山旧 雨初歇 豪情却 向谁说

　　机遇难赊

　　东风且暂借

　　流年似水足印难重叠

　　赤壁难辨

　　风流云散处

　　只剩下当时明月

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uaWRwRdW6zs


Ooooow! You make my head hurt, may a couple of beers will dull the pain, yeha... thats the ticket. :D

[Hendrik]

Ooooow! You make my head hurt, may a couple of beers will dull the pain, yeha... thats the ticket. :D


仰天笑 全忘了
潇洒如风轻飘飘

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZAzv1oXAfk&feature=related

[LSWCTN1]

You're refering to siu-lum/shao-lin.
We are speaking about completely different characters.
The Tao you used for 'way/path' is not the same character as tauh 'head'
In Cantonese the same word can be said in different tones and have different meanings and characters.

i have also raised this point before;

many TCMA allude to Shaolin origins, and many of the people involved with th early formation of wck where NOT scholars.

is it beyond the realms of possibility that the characters followed the words and could all be subject to one persons slight misunderstand of the meaning?

in many TCMA forms were only passed down to lineage holders and san sik made up the 'art'. therefore the form could have been seen very seldomly and the name heard even less. way back when.

i do think that there is a slight possibility this could be the case.

let the attacks commence....

[wtxs]

仰天笑 全忘了
潇洒如风轻飘飘

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZAzv1oXAfk&feature=related

Uncle! Uncle that I say, you're really puttin' the hurting to me this time, gonna need 2 six packs and more for all these pain. :D

Can't think of anyone appreciates the hard work you invested in finding all those music videos. We're not any where near your mental :p level, to understand and to receive the enlightenment of your grace. But if we were to be on-par, this forum would had died a slow death from boredom, at least you got this much going for you ... cheers my friend, I'm going to put a dent on those beers. :D

[SAAMAG]

As far as literal translation goes, one would think that two collegiate professors of the language who simply stated "epiphany" and "idea" would get the point across. Even breaking down each character gives sufficient insight as to what the general goal of the set is.

Since the OP wanted elaboration outside of literal translation, here's my contribution: The form set to me is an introduction set. Essentially, it gives the student the foundational tools and ideas that comprise wing chun. Things like YKYJM, the three hand forms (tan, bong, fook), the basic vertical fist, the centerline theory, the immoveable elbow, pak sao, dai jeung, and etc.

It's meant to give someone a "little idea" as to what the system is all about. Now the real question is...how does the set help your fighting prowess? Keep in mind that's a rhetorical question meant to impose a thought process.

[-木叶-]

念头正
终生正

Is the meaning of Siu Nim Tao.

To elaborate further, if your thoughts are correct, then your life will be correct.
Also means if your principles and training are correct, then your Wing Chun life
will be correct.
正 in this sense can also means Righteous.

正 in this sense can also refer to the centre line, 正中。
Also, this is why Siu Nim Tao is the first form of Wing Chun, it forms the basis
for all the rest of the forms.

念头 means the idea, Chinese says 善恶旨在一念之间，it means to be Righteous
or Evil is only at the instance, when you have the idea.

[wtxs]

What does it actually mean,(not so much how the words translate literally, but figuratively as well) and why was that name chosen?
I believe in some cases, the name of the set often tells alot, similarly to the kuen kuit.


Unless we can step back in time to ask the person/people which had given the WC forms their names, the true meanings will never to be revealed. :(

We can debate over these for an million years, the best we can come up with is .. little/small/simple idea of the mind/head.

The best we can do is to use our mind/head, explore all possibilities of the tools given.

[Hendrik]

Unless we can step back in time to ask the person/people which had given the WC forms their names, the true meanings will never to be revealed. :(

We can debate over these for an million years, the best we can come up with is .. little/small/simple idea of the mind/head.

The best we can do is to use our mind/head, explore all possibilities of the tools given.



That is not applied to those who have SLT kuen kuit.

The issue so far is people keep question and suspicious on the teaching of the ancestors with their mind set because everyone wants to have a say disregard of either they know or dont know the subject. It is a sickness cause by ego.


I have told many that the Hung Gar Iron wire is not WCK's SLT. and some keep arguing...etc.
I also told many that SLT is not so called Shao Lin. and some give me those look.

Well, the fact is, if one have never train SLT with Extremely minimum effort ( meaning applied only enough effort to carry the body and limbs) one doesnt know SLT as from the Kuen kuit.

and where is this Extremely minimum effort teaching is from ? Emei 12 Zhuang. Thus, SLT is not WHite Crane of Fujian even thought it uses White Crane of Fujian's shape often.


That is how to get the Snake of SLT, using Extremely minimum effort. but how many start to argue without see for oneself practice it that way for a month and see the different?

[wtxs]

Unless we can step back in time to ask the person/people which had given the WC forms their names, the true meanings will never to be revealed. :(

We can debate over these for an million years, the best we can come up with is .. little/small/simple idea of the mind/head.

The best we can do is to use our mind/head, explore all possibilities of the tools given.

Quoting Hendrik's post: That is not applied to those who have SLT kuen kuit.


It can applied to any spoken or written words, drawings, carvings, pictures, videos or SONGS... We applied our own interpretation to what is presented with our own frame of references, can never capture the original intend, some may get pretty close...but no cigar.

Need not wast time dwelling on what they supposed to mean, time better use in more training IMHO.

[Hendrik]

Quoting Hendrik's post: That is not applied to those who have SLT kuen kuit.


It can applied to any spoken or written words, drawings, carvings, pictures, videos or SONGS... We applied our own interpretation to what is presented with our own frame of references, can never capture the original intend, some may get pretty close...but no cigar.

Need not wast time dwelling on what they supposed to mean, time better use in more training IMHO.



that is your view. sure.

[-木叶-]

train SLT with Extremely minimum effort ( meaning applied only enough effort to carry the body and limbs)


This is correct.

[mikelee]

robert, phillip,

just noticed the thread is still active and your earlier posts. to answer your points, i am a fan of, but not a practitioner of wing chun, the source of my information is an accomplished teacher who studied under a number of different wing chun lineages. born into a relatively wealthy guangzhou family, he could afford to pay the fees of his multiple tutelages. however, i must emphasize what i put forward here is hearsay, and for discussion purposes only.

from what i understand:
- much of the art of wing chun has yet to be passed into public domain.
- wing chun in its entirety is a complete, effective, even brutal martial art, notwithstanding its legendary feminine origins.
- in old school martial arts training, if the sifu did not tell, one did not ask.
- wing chun is a fighting tradition, less a scholarly, intellectual one.
- codifying of oral terms into written characters is a recent development.
- examples of ambiguous phrases: chum kiu, chum: seek or sink; kim yeung ma, yeung: goat or groin?
- the alternative siu lim tao meaning i posted earlier is an amalgamation of different inputs, i am not sure if it is a valid interpretation, and had posted it to see if anyone else have heard of something similar.

thank you for your feedback and comments.