Question for Wah Lum people [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

NorthernMantis

12-13-2001, 12:35 PM

You misunderstand wah lum forms 1-6 were the original forms made by Lee Kwan Shan.There are other original forms though like the tornado broadswords,our trademark weapons, more tam tui drills,I think, and spear forms.

Another thing sigun didn't only train with Chan Wan Ching after Lee Kwan Shan's death.There were other si hings as well,Chan Wa.

A cool little bit of history I found out a while back for us wah lumers :D ---->

I'm sure we've all seen secret of the warriors power where Lee Kwan Shan used the dim mak on the challenger right?Well there's a good connection with that and Chan Wan Ching.

Lee Kwan Shan had traveled a lot before settling down and he even went into Vietnam.After getting into some trouble there (another story) he came back to China to the province where si gung lived which is some where in the south.During there he started teaching some students and opened up a school.Tensions started building bacsically because he was a northen practitioner and they felt he was on the other martial artists territory.

Lee Kwan Shan was good friends with a Yang Taiji stylist,if I remeber correctly ,and even though they were good friends there was still some tension between them sometimes.The Yang stylist always tried to test lee Kwan Shan's kung fu but Lee Kwan Shan always refused.Frustrated ,I don't think I remeber his name was mentioned,the Yang stylist invited Lee Kwan Shan to a feast or party.Anyway it was something similar and during the feast the Yang stylist tried to make Lee Kwan Shan drink but was refused.The more refused the more Lee Kwan Shan got angry.I'm guessing since tam tui was his fmaily style he might have been Muslim and alchohol is not permitted in the religion of Islam,it's only a guess.Finally the Yang stylist must have done something abrupt or violent causing Lee Kwan Shan to react by twisting and striking the Yang stylist spine from behind.The result was that the agressor was disabled and could no longer walk.Lee Kwan Shan told his ex-friend to leave town with his school.Master Chan was rith there when it happened and he was a really young boy.

However before the Yang stylist left with his school, his family begged Lee Kwan Shan to take his younger brother as a disciple and be taugh at his school.That disciple was Mr. Chan Wan Ching, si gung's older kung fu brother.What a mind blower huh?

The End

argentino

12-13-2001, 01:23 PM

I think there is a mistake here. Someone mentioned the Muslim Tan Tuei as influencing Hua Lin Tang Lang Quan (Wah Lum).
The famous Muslim Tan Tui (boxing of the Hui Chinese Moslem) that spead to many Northern styles and was also taught in the Jing Wu assn. means "springing leg". The Lee Kwan Shan's family style is Tam tui meaning "seeking leg". It is a different style and different Chinese characters !!!

Best regards

El argentino

NorthernMantis

12-13-2001, 02:52 PM

I've always wondered about that.Thanks for clearing it.

18elders

12-14-2001, 05:42 AM

Chan wan ching made up 1-6, he also has a different version of big mantis than Chan poi, i like Chan wan ching's better.
Anybody ever learn Saint Hands?
How about the basic exercises 6-10. or the hand moves to the 8 stances?
Anybody know when Chan wan ching was born? It is never shown in the handbook, only the year he died. Why is that?

Joe Mantis

12-14-2001, 11:49 AM

I Agree with 18 Elders. There seems to be a lot of clouded history when it comes to WLPM. Did Chan Poi affiliate himself more so with Lee Kwan Shan because he was well known? This seems to make sense in light of the fact that he was only 6 when he trained under LKS for 2 years.

Does anyone know the applications for forms 1-6. I mean were they formally taught them?

Also LKS studied 8 step PM which is known as Jut Sow in other areas of Asia.

Olethros

12-14-2001, 12:26 PM

"Chan wan ching made up 1-6"

Where are you getting this information?

Hua Lin Laoshi

12-14-2001, 01:07 PM

I have been told that Tan Tui was Lee Kwan Shan's family style. Tainan Mantis has an interesting post concerning the different characters used for Tan.

Master Chan is very traditional and his first Sifu is his Sifu no matter what. That might explain why so much emphasis is placed on LKS over Chan Wan Ching even though he didn't train very long with LKS. It also makes for better stories and marketing. :-)

There are Tan Tui forms in Wah Lum but I haven't reached that far yet.

Master Chan recently told a story about his training where the school had been split in two with each group learning different forms and techniques. This most likely caused variations from the originals. I know that students were taught differently according to their physical attributes and abilities. Somewhare along the line (after LKS died) Wah Lum splintered with senior students going their own way. Master Chan has been trying to pull it all back together and recover as much as he can from his remaining Sihings (mostly relatives from what I understand). I think this explains the variations and different styles that you find in Wah Lum today. I have seen some of the Wah Lum forms from China and they are quite a bit different than what we do here. Master Chan has heavily influenced the forms, techniques and curriculum. Today's Wah Lum (American Wah Lum?) is more a creation of Master Chan than anyone else.

NorthernMantis

12-14-2001, 01:21 PM

Also LKS studied 8 step PM which is known as Jut Sow in other areas of Asia.

uhh I think your mistaken.Lee Kwan Shan learned from Chin Yeung in the real wah lum temple in China.If I remeber reading 8step mantis history,and please correct me if I'm wrong,Lee Kwan Shan was alive diruing the time that 8 step mantis was created.I'm certianly Chin Yeung predates the creation of 8 step.

Hua Lin Laoshi

12-14-2001, 03:35 PM

18elders
By my calculations Master Chan trained with Lee Kwan Shan approximately 6 years. Sifu Tu's estimate of at least 10 years for Chan Wan Ching is probably about right. I'll see what I can find out.

Tianan Mantis
Are you speculating that Chan Wan Ching left to train in Hong Kong then return (after LKS death?) to take ever Master Chan's (and others) training?

NorthernMantis

12-14-2001, 04:32 PM

It's ironic that some guys say it's wu shu because they saw an inverted butterfly twist and others say it's southern.

Anyway I would like to point out the differences between 8 step and wah lum after re-reading 8step history.

1)Although my sifu pointed out some similarities wah lum with ba gua it definitely does NOT have ba gua footwork like 8 step.My sifu's husband know's ba gua very well and it definitely does not use the same foot work.

2)Chiang Hua Long was a 7th generation (from Wong Long ) master and Fong Hua Yi the 2nd generation (8th generation from Wong Long) Grandmaster of Eight Step Praying Mantis.
Chin Yeung was the fourth gerenation successor of the praying mantis system and Lee Kwan Shan was the fith generation successor and they were alive in those times.

That means that 8 step is older than wah lum.

3)Chiang Hua Long was a common citizen while Chin Yeung was an abbot of the real wah lum temple in China and the wah lum temple is still there.I don't think 8 step was passed along monks since it was created outside of those monasteries.

My conclusion is that 8 step is not jut sow.

woliveri

12-14-2001, 05:14 PM

18Elders Wrote:

"Chan wan ching made up 1-6, he also has a different version of big mantis than Chan poi, i like Chan wan ching's better.
Anybody ever learn Saint Hands?
How about the basic exercises 6-10. or the hand moves to the 8 stances? "

Great Posts 18 Elders!!! Gotta get to see you next time I'm in Florida.

I never heard of Saint Hands but I did know the hand movements to the 8 basic stances at one time (like double tiger claw palms with lady horse stance). We learned these in the "old days". Don't know if they are still teaching that.

How about Soft Form? I've heard of this one but never seen it. I don't think anyone has learned the whole thing and only a select few have learned parts of it. I have heard that it contains all the movements in Wah Lum.

I had heard Master Chan's first form was 36 hands. I don't know if that's true or just student rumor.

Joe Mantis

12-14-2001, 09:45 PM

Northern Mantis

It seems to me that there is a discrepancy about Jut Sow and 8 step. They are one and the same styles of PM, however they are referred to differently over parts of China and SE Asia.

_____________________

Still my question remains: Was anyone taught the applications to the forms?

Tainan Mantis

12-15-2001, 06:04 AM

18 elders,
Where have you seen Chan Wan Ching's beng bu? And, can I see it too?

woliveri,
I have seen soft form. I was there when my sifu was teaching Leroy. It was slow but not too soft. I think he called it slow wah lum. It is definetly WLPM and doesn't look like taiji. As I remember it was very difficult to perform because of the enormous amount of muscle control needed.
My impression at the time was that I could just do any WLPM very slow and strict and create this kind of flavor. I'll ask Leroy his opinion.

Hua Lin Laoshr,
I was told by Master Chan's kung fu cousin that Chan Wan Ching left China when young and studied under the head of the HK branch. He heard this from Chan Wan Ching's kung fu brother. What does young mean? I don't know.
Maybe when the history of WLPM is published we will have a better idea of what happened and when.

18elders

12-15-2001, 12:57 PM

Tainan, i think i put the 2 versions of Big mantis on the tape i sent you? If there are 2 versions i think Chan wan ching's is the second one, watch the difference in the hand moves in the very opening of the form.
If there isn't 2 versions let me know and i can get it to you.
Where did you hear Chan poi did lan jie?
If he does know it i think it should be taught in the Wah lum curriculum.

Woliveri
Most people don't learn the hand positions to he 8 stances in wah lum, i know it used to be taught but not now. I don't know why, but it seems it would be better to know them.
My shr-fu told me there was 10 basic wah lum exercises, i learned 7 but he didn't know the other 3.
Yes i have seen saint hand, i had it on video but unfortunately i taped big mantis over it so it is lost.
I had my shr-fu ask chan poi about it and he just walked away from him.
Another one of my kung fu brothers saw tom turcotte(not sure if i spelled his last name correct)do a form he never saw before. I don't know the name of the form but he said it had lots of acrobatic moves in it.
My shr-fu knew part of soft fist, a few of my kung fu brothers know parts of it. As far as i know Bob rosen knows the most of it but i don't think he knows all of it.

Joe mantis-
as far as the wah lum 1-6, i don't know of any 2 person sets to them or any drills that break the form apart to learn the apps.

Has anyone learned the 4th part of lok low?
Anyone ever hear of some kind of elephant trunk mantis or something like that.
I remeber Chan saying something about it and Lila used to have a Kwan do with it on it.

SaMantis

12-15-2001, 04:43 PM

hi 18elders,

on joe mantis' question -- I don't know anyone who has learned the 4th part of lok low, either. Master Chan taught the 1st part in a seminar last spring, a couple of more advanced students know the 2nd part.

Elephant trunk mantis hand -- is the fifth exercise in the curriculum (not the fifth form). It's a drill to teach beginners how to shape and use the mantis hook. The "elephant trunk" (correct me if I'm wrong, folks) describes the motion your arm makes during the drill. A little hard to put into words. :)

BTW, good discussion, everyone.

SamM

NorthernMantis

12-15-2001, 05:28 PM

Joe I don't know if it may be for certain if what you're saying is true.

I'm wondering have you seen the forms in person?I'm guessing you might know 8step as well.Are there any other 8step guys in here that have seen wah lum before?If so did it look like 8step?

I'm sorry to sound skeptic but I find it a bit hard to believe that they may be the same.It doesn't make sense to me.The lineages do not coincide and neither does the foot work.My sifu ,as well as her husband, is very well versed in internal styles such as ba gua.I'll ask her more about it.She's done 7* before and I'm sure she has seen 8 step maybe she can have more input.

I have nothing againts 8 step but I think you might be misinformed.Can you give more reasons why it is 8 step?You have to remeber that there are styles that have nothing to do with each other and have shared the same name.If it is how did it get to wah lum in China?The place is still standing but it was partly destroyed during the Cultural Revolution.What about si gung's other kung fu brothers in China do they do 8 step also?

I just can't see any connection.

NorthernMantis

12-15-2001, 05:45 PM

Hey Sa did you say hi to the guys for me?

Tainan Mantis

12-15-2001, 11:44 PM

Northern Mantis,
I have studied Wah Lum and 8 Step. Also 6 Harmony, Secret Door, Taiji Mantis, 7* and Plum Flower(jack of all, master of none).
There is no similarity in style between wah lum and 8 step.

I posted on another thread that in the GM of 8 Step book he mentions jut sow and so people have some confusion.
In a list of forms(12) that Lee Kwan Shan taught the only form in common is Da Fan Che. But this form is common to several styles of PM.

Wah Lum doesn't have the dzai yao forms until Zhang Bing Do taught them to Wah Lum people, but those forms are the nucleus of 8 Step according to Wei Hsiao Tang's book. So I also find no connection, although my teacher said there was one.
No evidence has come to light, either written or in the curriculum to prove otherwise.

18 Elders,
I heard that Master Chan did Lee Kwan Shan's 12 form curriculum before Boston. This was told to me by his kung fu cousin.

About the curriculum, my choice of forms, in this order:
-beng bu
-lan jie
-8 elbows
while simultaneusly learning 9 turns Pai Da.

I don't have the second beng bu you mentioned.
By the way, do you hear sleigh bells?

NorthernMantis

12-16-2001, 10:13 AM

Thanks for confirming it Tainan.Joe I think you might have been misinformed about wah lum.

Oh yeah Merry Christmas and Happy Hanuka everyone!!

SaMantis

12-16-2001, 02:45 PM

Hey NM,

Didn't get a chance to say hi for you this week! :(

Sifu Mimi and Co. took off on the Wah Lum cruise this week, but I will see them when they get back!

Peace,

Sam

Kempo

12-16-2001, 10:52 PM

I have heard of a Wah Lum form called Wood Jung that is performed on the plum flower posts. Has anyone seen this form or have it?

Thanks

18elders

12-17-2001, 06:16 AM

Yes there is a form performed on the jong poles.

When Lee kwan shan combined the tam tui and mantis did he just teach both styles in his curriculum or did he make up the forms using mantis techniques and tam tui?
Also it is always said Chan poi named it Wah lum tam tui northern praying mantis out of respect for his teacher, what did Lee kwan shan call it?
Lee kwan shan spent some time in Vietnam, does anyone know of any wah lum there or would it even be called wah lum?

Who was Chin yeung's teacher?

A guy i know had some rental proptery in St. Pete, FL, he was renting to a chinese man. He went to collect the rent check one day and he was wearing his wah lum t-shirt. The old guy started to ask him about it and he told him it was jut sow mantis style.
The guy was from mainland china, zhengzhou and his grandfather was a jut sow master. He learned from his grandfather and later on he was the body guard to a high up political leader in vietnam. He showed him all kinds of stuff and some nice 2 person forms he had on tape. When my friend did some of the wah lum forms for him the guy said it isn't jut sow mantis. I know he didn't know big mantis so he didn't show him that one.
He started to train with the guy and they did alot of forearm strengthening, he said the guys forearms where the size of someones calf muscle.
I don't know the name of the chinese guy, he moved shortly after the guy started to train with him.
I also never met the man, the guy i knew always avoided me ever meeting the chinese man, i think he didn't want me to learn from him, he wanted the knowledge to himself.

Sa mantis, yes i know the exercise and that it is called elephant trunk but i remember Master chan was sent some information about some elephant mantis style, he used to have it pinned up on the board beside the coke machine.
Lila had a kwando with the symbol on it.

18elders

12-17-2001, 06:27 AM

Hey tainan, in the one i sent you, in the opening moves when he steps out to the left, if he does a double knife hand strike and then they chop down to the collar bone then that is chan wan ching's version. If the knife hand strike isn't there it is chan poi's version. There are some more differences in the form, chan wan ching's version has some better moves in it.

Do you still have contact with his kung fu cousin?

Yes, the sleigh bells are ringing, how about you?

Hope to see you in March.

18elders

12-17-2001, 06:31 AM

Does anyone know Kenny Edwards, he lives in CA, he used to do Wah lum but not he does eagle claw. He was in the first Mortal combat movie.
He was training in a park one time and a chinese guy was watching him, he came up and started to talk to him, it turns out this guy trained with Chan wan ching.
I have tried to contact Kenny to ask him about it but i can't get ahold of him.

woliveri

12-17-2001, 10:41 AM

Hey 18 Elders, try here.

http://www.kungfuusa.com

I've been to Kenny's school a couple of times since I moved out from Florida.

Hope this helps.

Hua Lin Laoshi

12-17-2001, 02:16 PM

18Elders
I've never heard of Saint Hands but you can bet I'll be asking about it. The hand moves to the 8 basic stances were taught before my time although Mike and I have pieced together some of them. I don't know why they were dropped but i would prefer to have them. As for the 4th part of Lok Low, there was a cruise seminar not too long ago (did you go) where he taught the 3rd part but it was for Sifus only so I missed it. I only have 1 and 2. I would guess that nobody knows part 4 except maybe Mimi.

Lee Kwan Shan named the style Wah Lum out of respect for the temple where he learned Praying Mantis. Tam Tui was his family style. He added mantis hand techniques to Tam Tui to create Wah Lum. It appears to me that the higher you go the more original the material. At least that's my impression.

If you talk to Kenny ask him about the old Wah Lum guy he met. Kenny performed an advanced form (don't remember which one) and afterwards an old man about Master Chans age came up to him and told him it was wrong. He showed Kenny the correct way and then managed to disappear back into the crowd. Kenny said he moved as good or better than Master Chan.

woliveri
Haven't seen you post in awhile. Master Chan taught the 2nd part of Soft Form on the last Mexico cruise. I've heard there are 6 parts with part one being very simple, like 8 Chain Punch. I don't know anyone who knows all if it.

Tainan Mantis
The Lan Jie taught currently at Wah Lum did not come from Master Chan and it is not in the curriculum. There may be one on a level higher than 7.

Kempo
There is a form done on the poles but I haven't seen or heard of anyone knowing it. I had (I guess I still have) a goal to be one of the few to learn it. So far Master Chan just thinks I'm crazy climbing around the poles but did suggest that I had to learn certain material first AND exhibit sufficient physical ability. I'm fairly close to meeting those requirements.

SaMantis

12-17-2001, 03:55 PM

18 elders,

That's right, I remember Lila showing a few of the students/si hings her kwan do, there was a symbol on it but I never asked what it was. That was a couple years back.

That bulletin board by the coke machine has been changed around ... I wonder if they still have that info lying around.

Thanks for the clarification! :)

Sam

whitewhirlwhind

12-17-2001, 07:23 PM

I once traveled to watch and participate in a community celebration. To my surprise, there were two kung fu schools to perform at the exhibition. As a sincere student myself, I was excited at the opportunity and settled in and watched the two schools.

The first school presented themselves in the same uniforms. Each member of the school carried themselves in a positive way. The teacher said very little; he only gave encouragement to his students. His focus seemed to be on his school and their actions.

The second school’s students also carried themselves in a positive way. And the school’s teachers also encouraged the nervously excited students. There was no difference between the two schools before each performed.

The second school, who seemed to have no discernable uniform, went first. The school opened with a lion dance performed by young children. The crowd loved it! I clapped and laughed too! Then the school did various forms and two-person exercises. Some exercises and drills were tight, but the majority seemed loose. The teachers participated in many exercises and drills. But the school just seemed preoccupied?

The first school went second. Their drills and exercises were tight! The teacher stood in front of where the school performed and pounded out cadence and melodies on a drum. His only other participation was to watch his school intently and smile encouragement and approval at his students.

I later learned that the teacher of the first school was ever inward looking and soft-spoken. He teaches his students to think for themselves. He encourages them to find for themselves through kung fu their own applications and answers to life. His goal is to make his school worthy of its system’s inspiring lineage. He seemed to know his school was judged by his actions.

I also learned that a teacher from the second school was preoccupied with disparaging and discrediting the authenticity and lineage of the first. I wonder if his preoccupation was reflected in the performance that I watched.

18elders

12-18-2001, 06:13 AM

I saw the same demo, some interesting points though,
the second school that performed first had a majority of children. Since it was a Santa fest gathering, it was thought it should be for the kids to have fun. I didn't see any children in the first school that went second.
I also know someone in the first school that went second. He stated that all they have done for 3 months is practise for that show to try and upstage the first perormers. I agree they did a nice job on lining up and everything was pretty tight. It is that someone with real kung fu knowledge would see the technique and body movement and power of the first performers was great.
They may have not been as tight with lining up as children get a bit stage fright.
The second group of perfomers have no power, no fa jing in their moves, nice dancers but no martial spirit.
The same guy that said the second performers(he goes to that school) trained for 3 months for the show, also stated the teacher(that soft spoken one you mentioned) from that school said the teacher and the master from the first performers suck. I found that odd since many of the students from the second group of performers have left that school to train with the first group of performers.

Olethros

12-18-2001, 06:51 AM

I think I get the identities of the "first group of performers" and the "second group of performers" and I'm prettty sure that there's a history between the two sifu's that goes back a while.

As for the accusations that the one school had weak attacks, I think that might be attributed to the fact that they were doing exhibition stuff and not true forms.

argentino

12-18-2001, 10:40 AM

Please contact me and I will forward you Ken Edward's contact information. I do not want to post his e-mail address here because someone could abuse it.

Best regards

El argentino
mantisking@hotmail.com

vixie

12-18-2001, 11:30 AM

ALL THOSE WHO ARE PARTICIPATING IN THIS BASHING SESSION NEED TO FOCUS MORE ON YOUR OWN ART AND STOP WORRYING ABOUT THINGS YOU HAVE NO CONTROL OVER...LIKE SOMEONE ELSE'S SCHOOL, STYLE AND TEACHING...

I IMPLORE YOU...ESPECICALLY THOSE WHO ARE SUPPOSED TO BE SETTING AN EXAMPLE...FOR THE REPUTATION OF MARTIAL ARTISTS AND FOR YOUR OWN PEACE...STOP THIS NOW...NO MORE.

LOVE AND ENCOURAGEMENT TO ALL THOSE WHO PRACTICE,

VIXIE

:D

Joe Mantis

12-18-2001, 12:44 PM

Vixie

It seems that you have missed the point. This thread is about finding out information on the WLPM system. There are many questions that have been unanswered. I appreciate all the knowledge that has been shared so far and am grateful to ALL who have contributed to this discussion.
Questioning a style is not bashing, it is merely seeking to know more.

Thanks: Tainan, 18 Elders, Hua Lin, Mantis108, Northern Mantis... and all who contributed. Keep up the great work.

vixie

12-18-2001, 12:56 PM

Learn Kindness

Learn Fellowship

Learn Kung Fu

....one need not be a genius to read between the lines....or perhaps my old Sihing has forgotten what this means...it's not a Wah Lum thing, you know? It's a kung fu thing.

I for one will no longer participate here. I urge anyone who truly wishes to discuss kung fu to open a new thread that does not encourage the painfully obvious negativity found here.

Farewell friends,

Vixie

whitewhirlwhind

12-18-2001, 01:13 PM

I would not claim to know the thoughts or feelings of either teacher in either school; I would also say nothing against either, as both demonstrate sincerity in walking the paths of their own study and kung fu even though their paths are separate and different.

I certainly compliment the second school for the use of children in their performance. As I stated, the crowd—both kung fu students from both schools and civilians—enjoyed it very much. I hope the school has continued success with its children, as it was certainly a strength of their show.

I am certainly excited after a performance and need time to reorganize my energy and thinking, and I imagine that others also need the same. The first school had children for the first five or six minutes, and you may have missed them. They did quite well. They ran into their places screaming, and they came to a silent halt. Their performance only got better from there.

I must agree to a point with Olethros concerning the lack of power. But did you see the Leopard Form? Wow! Speed, power, and skill; that guy was made for the Leopard. He learned and was taught well.

The students in the first school train for any show from the day that they start the school. They are taught that kung fu is to be learned and lived rather than merely exhibited for demonstrations.

I, too, find it odd that the teacher of the first school would say that another teacher “suck[s].” I cannot imagine one of the three students that left the first school and attended the second would back up such an accusation. I am glad, though, that the three had a chance to study under two serious teachers with similar and yet different systems in one area.

It is also great to see someone in the same area, like yourself, who has such a strong knowledge, study, and practice of your own system that you can question the well-known masters and ancestors of others as well.

Tainan Mantis

12-18-2001, 06:01 PM

e-mail me.

9dragonshijin

12-18-2001, 06:31 PM

Cant we just all get along...:D
This is just so upsetting to me...I cant sleep, my hair is falling out...it's really not a pretty sight.:o

18elders
I really dont think it is fair for you to say that your school sucks. Nobody is perfect and we're all trying our best, so just keep tr......
oh...I'm sorry...I misread that...someone else supposedly said that aboutyou ...oh,sorry.:rolleyes:

18elders

12-18-2001, 08:58 PM

an escort that would kill for money, kindness??

woliveri

12-18-2001, 09:22 PM

I love these conversations when involving Wah Lum for some reason certain people start whining about bashing. It really cracks me up. Vixie, your comments come right out of left field. Tell me where the bashing is? I can't find it. The comments made where abstract enough to for anyone not in the loop to know what's going on. I think the comments where in much better context than I would have written them and personally I think you're thin skinned to let some comments bother you like this. I have no idea who they are talking about and if I did, who cares? A kung fu school is just a business entity just like any other business such as a restaurant and such. Certainly you're not going to whine if I post some criticism about Pizza Hut are you? I think their pizzas are too greasy. Oh, Oh... Please stop bashing pizza hut... Can't we all just get a long and love one another? Excuse me while I barf.

9dragonshijin

12-19-2001, 03:45 AM

Maybe 18 elders can help me...or Joemantis...sorry...same person.
Anyway.
Does anyone know Chan Wan Ching's shoe size?
I was told it was 44 / 9-10 u.s....but now ...I'm starting to have my doubts.
Also.
Did Lee Kwan Shan like his eggs scrambled ,or sunny side up?
It's not in any of the teachings, and I think it is strange that it isn't.
What sort of cover up is going on?
Why can't I get an to this?
What is Wah Lum hiding?

9dragonshijin

12-19-2001, 04:25 AM

As for Vixie...don't worry about her.
When I find her, I'll settle her hash...peacenik.

18elders

12-19-2001, 06:03 AM

I'm not the same person as joemantis. I have nothing to hide so i wouldn't need 2 user names.
Yes i do suck compared to my shr-fu, and his shr-fu. I know they have great kung fu. You can bash me all you want, i don't care it doesn't bother me, i never stated my kung fu is great.
I'm guessing you train with sifu TH?

Joe Mantis

12-19-2001, 06:47 AM

Sorry Guys and Gals but I'm not 18 Elders.

Anyway, The question still remains: Did Chan Poi teach anyone the applications to the forms?

What is do difficult about that?

Also, Vixie, If you feel so insecure about your art then maybe it may be time for a change. Who knows? All advancement has been made through questioning. Can I have some answers please?

Joe Mantis

12-19-2001, 07:01 AM

HAS CHAN POI TAUGHT THE APPLICATIONS TO THE FORMS?

Is that bashing?

woliveri

12-19-2001, 09:15 AM

Master Chan only personally taught me one application to one move. I asked him what the position was where you have your left hand extended with one finger sticking up (I don't know the name of the palm). It's kinda like a ready position. When I asked him he just grabbed my arm. That's it. I learned much more about Wah Lum applications after I left Wah Lum and trained with a Vietnamese man who trained in Tai mantis and many other arts in Vietnam. When I was at the school the focus was on forms training. I think 18 Elders, if I remember correctly who you are, the same applies. Correct me if I'm wrong.

9dragonshijin

12-19-2001, 09:29 AM

I'm not bashing you, I just misread one of

your posts.
Next.
Try and work with me here...I'm going into the abstract here a little, I'll try and go slow. When I said that you and Joemantis were the same , I didn't mean in the physical sense. You both say basically the same thing, always coming on and backing the other one. O.K.
Now.
you are both of the same mind, unified.
Hence my saying you are the same person...there's is a little step that must be taken in that thought process.
YOU ARE THE SAME PERSON UNDER TWO NAMES ADMIT IT!
As to your question , yes

18elders

12-19-2001, 12:23 PM

Yes, that is the same with me also.

I'm sure it is the same with many others too.
I learned more in one day with Master Shr Zheng Zhong about mantis applications than i did in 10 years in Wah lum. That is why i'm trying to get more answers about wah lum. Why doesn't it have 2 man forms to all of it's sets, no drills from the forms. You can't dream up the applications as they tell you you should.
Why can't we trace the lineage before Ching yeung? Do they just not wish to teach the applications from the forms and if so then why not?
Where are the real jut sow mantis forms in wah lum?
I really liked wahlum when i trained in it but me and many of my kung fu brothers always wondered why the applications where not being taught and why there was so many unanswered questions about the style.
Master Shr will answer any question, show you any application you ask about and then show you 10 other variations and counters to it.
After i started to train with my shr-fu now it feels like a let down and a waist of time doing what i was doing before because i wasn't learning real kung fu and how to use it. If you want to dance around go do tae bo.

9dragonshihin,
your still wrong, i'm not joemantis. If we do have the same thoughts on questions i'm sure there are alot more who feel the same way but just don't say it.
I'll give you some more material to read when i have more time to type. I have an e-mail that i have saved for a long time but always was pondering if i should show it or not but since a few of you WM people bring up kindness and fellowship i guess i'll show you a great example from your sifu.

Hua Lin Laoshi

12-19-2001, 12:46 PM

I've learned some applications from the instructors I've had over the years in Wah Lum and I got a couple from Master Chan. I'll admit it isn't fun trying to get them from him as he usually thinks I'm an idiot for not seeing the application in the form. However, I've got quite a few years of Kenpo training and have had more than a few real fights so most of the applications are fairly easy for me as long as I'm shown the forms correctly. By that I mean that I've learned moves in forms where I didn't get the application until I saw Master Chan do the move. Sometimes just a minor difference brings it to light. Also, the way he moves more closely resembles actual fighting (sorry Sihings and Sifus) than the instructors I learned from early on. Luckily for me most of my advanced forms I learned from Master Chan. I still have a problem with a few moves in some of the forms (I'm out on a limb now). I've been told that they're not exactly right on purpose (hidden until you're advanced enough to understand them?). Whether that's true or not I don't know but I still think there are hidden applications in the forms that I haven't found yet and I'll be spending the rest of my life after the Temple figuring them out.
It's actually fun trying them out to see if they work. Example: In 18 Elbows - left hand block, grab, right elbow (breaking arm), turn into Lady horse Stance, left elbow to ribs. I was told after the arm break the right hand grabs the arm while turning into LHS then elbow to ribs. Everyone brings the right arm straight across the body. If you actually try this it doesn't work because you can't pull the arm through your neck. Master Chan holds the right arm high (like an upper block) when he turns. When I tried it his way the right arm stays under the opponents arm as I turn keeping it over my head and giving me a clear shot at the ribs. Now when I do the form I keep my right arm high even though I wasn't taught it that way. If I ever teach it that's how I'll do it and I'll explain why. All this is my own personal experience and opinion and this discovery process has fueled further research into the applications in the forms. It's a bit more fun than having everything handed to me but without some previous experience or training it's hard to figure out. That's why some of us put more effort into explaining applications than we received when we were students. Once your eyes are opened it's amazing what you'll find.

PS - I edited the above. After talking about this with a few friends I realized I was wrong about who showed me the moves in 18 Elbows. I got it confused with material in another form. My apologies to TF, what he showed me was valid and made sense.

Guess I'm getting old, the first thing to go is the memory! :-)

NorthernMantis

12-19-2001, 05:58 PM

No need to start messing things up when the thread was going well, though not smoothly.

Vixie-

It wasn't any bashing at all (untill a while ago anyway) even though you can feel some bad vibes.Some people just wanted more information.You might want to re-read Joe Mantis' post.

whitewhirlwhind-

I have no idea about what your talking about.What two schools..what demo?

18elders-

For a former wah lum student you sure have a lot of questions that you should know already know, especially the simple ones.

kindness, fellowship, kung fu... an escort that would kill for money, kindness??

18elders you know as well as I do Lee Kwan Shan did it to protect the people he was escorting,it was a job and a noble one at that.Protecting others is a good part part of kung fu and it does not take away any of the said qualities.You have to remember that back then fights were to the death or you would die and much less the lives of the ones you are trying to save.

That was a mundane question with no useful purpose other than frustrate Vixie ,boost your ego, plus take a stab at wah lum and you know it.It was his job and also a kind one, even though he was protecting the caravan for money.However, bodyguards are paid to protect their clients from danger period.

I think it is obvious now that you have something againts wah lum and si gung.It's okay to ask questions but it's not okay to attack others wether it be directly or indirectly by asking them questions that you know they have no answer to.If you want to say that you want the students to think for themselves then fine I accept that but they still have to respect their elders as so should you.

"Why can't we trace the lineage before Ching yeung? "

The tiger claw people have the same situation where the lineage is unknown past a certain person.Things happen or people mmake mistakes along the way.Don't blame wah lum for it.We just don't know becuase either Lee Kwan Shan never asked or was never told.If we don't know then we don't know but I can assure that the known part of our lineage is legit.

"Do they just not wish to teach the applications from the forms and if so then why not?"

They do.Why you didn't learn them I do not know.Why would they not teach every single application?Probably because you may not be a disciple.Sorry to be blunt about it but hey you have to watch who to teach in order to preserve the sytem.There have been many people who have done things which they shouldn't with wah lum.

For example:There was this one guy who took wah lum and combined it with Muay Thai using the jut sow name.Claimed something about giving it better leg techniques.Lee Kwan Shan made wah lum so it would have better leg techniques.It wasn't even another Chinese style that guy combined our style with although if Lee Kwan Shan hadn't combine tam tui and jut sow there would be no wah lum.

Some other guy decided to put belts (yes the Japanese ranking system) into wah lum.Don't know what happened to that guy but I don't think he might be in our style and he still is my apologies to him for mentioning this. belts

No offense to anyone but people wore sashes with many different colors and styles back in the day it didn't mean that they were at a certain level.You either know how to use what you know or you're in the process of trying to make it work period.

"Where are the real jut sow mantis forms in wah lum? "

I suppose only a few advanced people may know it.I have seen this wah lum form in a Masters Demo that a friend gave to me.Then again 4 1/2 years of training is considered young in the learning of martial arts.

"Master Shr will answer any question"

No one teaches the same way.

"If you want to dance around go do tae bo"

Who says we dance?What about when I told you how Sifu Troy beat down that dude in China when he challenged si gung?I know there are lot's of good fighters in our style and there are other non-wah lum members in here that can contest to it.

Joe Mantis-

About your question.. sigung has taught many, including me, the applications to forms.In fact he has taught some of them to me without having to ask.The reason why I believe si gung hasn't taught some applications to some students is because they were students and not disciples.

Wolivery-

I love these conversations when involving Wah Lum for some reason certain people start whining about bashing. It really cracks me up.

As a martial artist with years of knowledge I would expect more from you.You know that Vixie doens't know as much about what you are talking about than you do.

Getting pleasure from seeing people frustrated or confused isn't proper as a person or a martial artist.Although I have know you for a while online I expected more from you.Sorry to be on the offensive side or play "moderator" but I felt you have to know your own faults before you point out others' errors.

By the way I lost the address to that Traditional Chinese Medicine doctor that you told me about.I have yet to visit the place since I hvaen't had time or the transporation:(

How's training going?Hope you have a good Christmas this year.:cool:

Hua Lin-

Your cool and I'm not just saying that because you're my si hing
:D .I remeber almost passed out in your class once and you made a speech about it at the end of class:D Those were the days.I think you showed me part of right hand stick also along with my brother when he used to be in kung fu.Tell big Mike andrew said hi.Take care and Merry Christmas.

18elders

12-19-2001, 06:26 PM

i was with troy in china, don't ever remember that someone challenge sigung.
Troy is a good fighter but his knowledge is more in kick boxing than him using wah lum techniques. After his fight in the tournament Master Jang told him he didn't use enough technique and showed him a few moves to block a kick.
The crack about escort killing for money was a joke, you don't train you whole life to turn the other cheek.
I don't have anything agains si-gung,nor you. I think you are one of Shelly's students, it is more about another school and things they are saying and stuff they did that has ****ed me off.

Hua lin -
Did you find out about Saint hands? When SC asked him about it years ago he didn't answer him.
As far as the techniques, Master Shr explained a 5 step process in learning your technique and progressing through the 5 steps to be able to apply your technique and be able to mix them with any other technique into a real combat situation.
It is not that you are just handed a technique and you are able to master it. It takes a long time to be able to master techniques and drill them until it is not even a thought in your mind anymore.
It is a continuous 2 person work out learning the techniques, counter, attack, counter etc. It takes a long time, you can't waist your time trying to dream up an application, you need to be drilling the heck out of them.
It's like learning to add, someone gave you the answer, 1+1 is 2. Learn that until it is second nature, now let's add subtraction to the picture. YOu had to learn the answer to that. Now let's add multiplication, learn that, now division, learn that etc.
If someone just gave you a long mathematical problem and nobody ever gave you the process to figure it out you won't get the correct answer. Sure you can come up with something, we all did in school but we got it marked wrong.
It's hard to explain, Master Shr will be here in the summer, it would be great for you to see him but i'm sure you would be putting your head on the chopping block.
Anyways, nothing against you guys, there's alot of people i like in wah lum and keep in touch with.
Have a great Christmas!

7kicks

12-19-2001, 07:04 PM

It seems as though most of the replys on this topic are from the Florida area. I do not know what your sifu's are teaching at your kwoons but I can tell you at our kwoon we are taught all the combat applications to the forms in detail and broken down step by step. If there is more than one way to use the application then our sifu is more than willing to show us. There are no secrets witheld from us. Our sifu feels that if we are to represent the Wah Lum system then we should know the combat apps behind it. Everyone is considered equal and a prospect to become a sifu if he/she wishes. One of the nice things is you can approach sifu on any topic you don't understand and he will and always has the time to explain it and then demonstrate it for you. He also teaches self defense techniques that are not in the forms we practice, after all it is kung-fu!!!

NorthernMantis

12-19-2001, 07:05 PM

"i was with troy in china, don't ever remember that someone challenge sigung. "

It was on a video my sihing saw.I don't think you were there.

Merry Crhistmas to you too

NorthernMantis

12-19-2001, 07:10 PM

Originally posted by 7kicks
It seems as though most of the replys on this topic are from the Florida area. I do not know what your sifu's are teaching at your kwoons but I can tell you at our kwoon we are taught all the combat applications to the forms in detail and broken down step by step. If there is more than one way to use the application then our sifu is more than willing to show us. There are no secrets witheld from us. Our sifu feels that if we are to represent the Wah Lum system then we should know the combat apps behind it. Everyone is considered equal and a prospect to become a sifu if he/she wishes. One of the nice things is you can approach sifu on any topic you don't understand and he will and always has the time to explain it and then demonstrate it for you. He also teaches self defense techniques that are not in the forms we practice, after all it is kung-fu!!!

7 kicks-

It's the same thing here.I was just giving possible answers why 18elders might have missed some aplications.I have been taught every almost every aplication up to date of what I know and their variants also.

I need to learn how to type correctly :rolleyes:

7kicks

12-19-2001, 07:43 PM

NorthernMantis you brought up some really good points in your post. One of the topics I can relate to personally.
You mentioned how some people have taken WahLum and then mixed it in with other styles and still claimed it was traditional wahlum I have seen this first hand it happened to me when I first started training. I soon found out I was being taught chop suey.I have also seen a school who claims to teach wahlum and they wear karate gi's and belts for rank. Yes they are learning some wahlum mixed with karate from some guy who took wahlum for a few years.
I feel sorry for the students who are not quick to catch on but they will find out once they start to do a search on the internet and their school is not listed.
However there are some people still teaching the system who are not affiliated with the organization who have kept it pure.

Joe Mantis

12-19-2001, 08:19 PM

Northern,

Thanks for the reply. I'm glad to know that you have learned some apps.
Do you feel confident to use them at this point in your training?
Most people do not fight with their Kung fu, 18 Elders is correct in saying this. They normally resort to some sort of "kick boxing" as seen in Tae Kwon Do sparring matches.
It is one thing to know an application is it another to be able to use it at will.
_____________________________________
9Dragon

I can tell you that there are many who have has similar experiences in the WLPM system. I agree with 18 Elders on a lot of issues, NOT ALL but a lot.
Sorry, we're different people.

To All:

I will say that from my personal experience, Wah Lum left a negative taste in my mouth. The system itself is great. the techniques are awesome....

I don't appreciate a certain WLPM Sifu telling me that I need to study a "pure" style like WLPM and not something "Chop Suey."
When in fact WL is "Chop Suey." It combines different pure styles of kung fu. I didn't like being misled.
Furthermore when I approached this Sifu about becoming better at Kung fu his implied that all that was left was more forms. At that time I realized that I was missing how to use the actual techniques and wasn't being Trained to use them.....
Alas I was merely a "kick boxer."

Furthermore the pervasive controlling attitude which the WL sifu's exhibit over their students is disgusting.
The attititude of don't question, do as I say. Don't look elsewhere for answers.... sad sad sad.

Anyway, when I chose to expand my learning by going elsewhere, the negative attitude I received from this Sifu and his students left me in disbelief.

I'll leave you with this: ( Some of you newbies might not recognize these names but if you do your research you'll find out that these guys were great.)

HAVE YOU EVER WONDERED WHY ALL THE GREAT PRACTITIONER OF WLPM LEFT: Tracy Fleming , Troy P , Sean Cochran, Art D'agostino , Tom Turcotte, Andre, Dean Wong, Ryan, Yao Li,
just a few?

18elders

12-19-2001, 08:33 PM

It's great if you are taught the apps to all your forms, if you don't mind me asking who is your sifu?
You must have one of the lucky one's because the one's i know where not taught the apps.

NorthernMantis

12-19-2001, 08:58 PM

7 kicks-

My si hing MiamiMantis told me a story about how this karate guy came in and did a really modified 1st form but then he explained it was a wah lum form and the guy left never came back.

Oh and by the way MiamiMantis' wife is going to give birth to his second child.I'll make a new post so you guys can congratlate him.

Joe Mantis-

To tell the truth even though I have used my kung fu very little before I am starting to be more comfortable with my kung fu and the moves are starting to be more natural.Everyonece in a while I'll pull out a couple of moves from my forms and use them.It's a lot compared to a 2 years ago when a move would actually come out onvce in a while.

The answer is yes I'm comfortable that I can use my kung fu now.I've used techniques from my style like the contreversial horse stance that most people say they don't know what it's for.I've held my own before agints talle people (yes I got my but whipped but I wasn't dominated) plus the movements from little mantis and second form when you trip and attack the threat at the same time.I can't tell you how effective it is for me.

There's one thing about about using your techniques at will.That's a higher level of kung fu but it supposed to come in different stages,I'm talking out of my own experience and some of what i was taught.

At first you train so that the response is automatic and you do your techniques without thinking.Then at higher levels you learn to use your techniques at will.

Years ago a while after I started sparring every now and then I would just pull out a move from the forms.I was a begginer at the time but one night I was sparring with this guy and this move just came out of no where and the next thing I knew the guy was on the floor.The next thing I knew I would hear some of my friends clapping and cheering and I didn't know what it was all about.When I was done one of my friend pulls me off to the side congratulated me and asked me how did I do that.I didn't know what he was talking about and I said did what?He just looked at me and got irritated a bit and didn't talk to me.Later on I noticed that every know and then I would use a technique staright out of the forms without knowing it.Frustrated I went to my one of my instructors and told him that I would do the move without knowing that I did untill I fished executing it.Foolishly I told him that I wanted to apply them by my own will not knowing that was the first step of the process although I was explained that executing a technique by will was the the goal but using them unconciously as a reflex was the first step to get to that level.

I believe that is true because 3 years have passed and I'm starting to use my techniques and apply them more naturally.Don't get me wrong I haven't mastered the concept but it's a lot easier to use a technique for me by my own will.I can actually just come up and uproot a person at time with my stances and attack their balance.

I also think the part of doing it unconciously serves as a backup in case a strike hit slips in to go for a hit.

All in all I thank God for helping me stick things through and all my kung fu family that pushed me along the way.*sigh* I still have a lot to learn.It's been a long way since I first started.

"The attititude of don't question, do as I say. Don't look elsewhere for answers.... sad sad sad."

Well what can I say.That's the Chinese way of kung fu.There was apost similar to this about a year ago.I think it's m,meant to keep the newer sudents in line and you can ask when yo're at higher levels, after all how can a studdent who can't hold a basic horse stance ask if something is applicable ior not don't you think?Strong basics frist questions later.

Sorry about the typos but I was practing in my back yard a while ago and I'm dead tired.I need tsome sleep.I'll edit tomorrow.:(

Pong Lai

12-19-2001, 09:46 PM

¥~¦æ¬Ý¼ö¾x¡A¤º¦æ¬Ýªù¹D
(Let me know if the above characters can be read on the forum)

Layman¡¦s observe flashiness and bustling ¡§surface¡¨ activity ¡A
One whom is adept observes the ¡§inner¡¨ hows and why¡¦s.

For Tainan Mantis (®v¥S):
Following is what I emailed you.
1)¤T¨¬¹©¥ß
2)¥ª¥k§æ¸}
3)Às§Î¤TÅ|
4)¬ÂÄn¤jÂà(same as ¤jÂà¸y??)
What is the English name for»I¨w??)

woliveri

12-19-2001, 10:32 PM

Joe Mantis, you remember Andre Wong? Are you that old of a student or just know of him. Andre was a heavy set guy and you'd think he couldn't move or have power but boy he put welts on my forearm one time for sure. I'll tell you a guy that could really move, John Quinn. Anyone remember him. There were so many talented pratictioners in WL it's just sad to see them all leave. Yeah, every wonder why?

9dragonshijin

12-20-2001, 03:54 AM

I've been playing around with you alot, but this is my first serious statement for you.
If you don't have anything against si-gung, then why does it sound as if youare trying to discredit him?
You have to admit what you are basically saying is that he is misrepresenting himself, and his system. You trained many years with him, and would not be where you are in your martial arts training without him. Don't you think that means something?
I don't take any of this seriously.
What I take seriously is going to work every day, paying my bills, surviving, and TRAINING.

Tainan Mantis

12-20-2001, 05:30 AM

in English is also gao huang. As there is no English I would guess it is not recognized by western medicine, no surprise there.
Vital region between heart and diaphragm. Presently used to describe a deep sited incurable disease.

About 1-4, when you come you can see my notes. I guess you are talking about the Chinese names for the exercises. We never said them so I don't remember. But I have it written down. I believe there is also a copy on the wall of the Tainan school.

Funny I can read Your Chinese on the forum but not through Yahoo.

argentino

12-20-2001, 08:19 AM

Pong Lai

Chinese characters did not go well...

How do you like "vital organs" as a translation for gao huang.

1) san zu ding li
2) zuo you ban jiao
3) long xing san die
4) ling long da zhuan

Easier to read now. What are these names referring to ?

Best regards

El argentino

9dragonshijin

12-20-2001, 08:43 AM

"Court gowns of red and purple are not attractive.
Instead, I love white clouds embracing emerald mountaintops.
So i sit in solitude, forgetting the year or month
While in the mundane world below, lifetimes and generations
pass."

good luck

Hua Lin Laoshi

12-20-2001, 09:14 AM

To All
All the styles are MADE UP and all the styles are a mix of moves and techniques gathered from personal experiences of the originator and people around him. The only question is did the originator have the experience and know what he was doing? For some, how long ago the system was created is also important. Most likely the older styles would not have lasted unless they worked. That doesn't diminish the practicality of newer styles.

18Elders
Everyone is on the cruise. Give me some time. After thinking about it I seem to remember hearing the name Saint Hands before. Probably around the time SC was asking about it.

I agree with you 100% about drilling. That's something I don't think we do enough of around here. Coming from a Karate background I know how important drills are in training. And Karate is easy (sorry Karate guys) compared to Kung Fu. I believe even the most flashy and outlandish techniques could work if you drill them enough but then I'm in the minority with that kind of thinking. If you can execute a complex move smoothly and quickly it will work. And the only way to reach that level is to drill it over and over until you can't stand doing it anymore and then do it some more. :-)

You also can't train reflexes by doing forms! Two man sets and sparring are a must.

As far as getting answers I believe once you reach a certain level and understand theory you can find the applications and even make up some of your own. For all my years in Kenpo I came away with more knowledge of how to move, how to defend, how to attack, where to attack than I did specific techniques. I have a terrible memory so I operate more on theory than specifics. It's much easier for me. That's why I have trouble with my forms. I know what I'm supposed to be doing so I do the move accordingly. I'm only precise when it makes a difference in the application not whether it looks right or not.

Once I show a student a few applications from forms and they understand what to look for they get excited and start finding the meanings for other moves in the form. Some get it right away, others take longer. If you constantly have to have everything explained then maybe you should take up something simpler like TKD (sorry TKD guys).

I wish we could all be one big happy Kung Fu family but that doesn't seem to work in reality. It would be interesting to speak with Master Shr but it probably stir up trouble. Master Chan is my Sifu and I guess I'm a little old fashion myself. I would never disrespect him by going behind his back to another Sifu. I am open to discussing Martial Arts with anyone and generally like to make friends with others in the Martial Arts community but for any type of formal training I would get Master Chan's permission first. I'm thankful for what I've learned so far. How much I learn in the future is yet to be seen. I may end up being an old timer like Bob Rosen (I'm not saying you're old Bob :-)) or I might move on, it's not up to me.

NorthernMantis and 7kicks
Apparently not everyone got the same level of training as your Sifu's received. Consider yourselves lucky. I suspect they both learned approximately the same time period. Way back. I don't know who 7kicks Sifu is so I'm not sure.

BTW, there sure is a lack of information in all these profiles. Why is that?

Anyhow, 18Elders was in China when Troy fought but it was in the ring, not in the street. NorthernMantis may be confusing this with a story from an earlier China trip in which the fight was in a alley and it wasn't Troy.

Joe Mantis
Funny how Kung Fu people do the fanciest forms in competition and then kickbox when sparring. I've got video of tournaments from CA and the guy doing the fancy Monkey form didn't use any Monkey moves when he sparred. Ditto for pretty much all the styles. Tough time spelling Troy's last name? :-) All those people left for different reasons but there is something of a pattern. People drop out for different reasons anywhere from the first month to 15 years. If you think you've outgrown where you are then move on to something else. No problem.

Pong Lai
I can't see the Chinese even though I'm running NJStar Communicator. I'm not even getting it pasting into a translator. I don't know why. For those interested the Chinese to Pinyin translator is at http://www.ocrat.com/reaf/reanG.html

woliveri
I've met John Quinen. He was teaching Kung Fu to a few private students at a Kenpo school in Oviedo. Haven't seen him in quite a few years but last I heard he was teaching Ashtanga Yoga at the sportsplex in Altamonte Springs.

Man, for someone who doesn't talk much in person I sure do write a lot!

18elders

12-20-2001, 09:15 AM

In your original post about the 2 schools performances, you make it sound as if you are just a spectator. I ask then how a spectator would know the form the guy did was leapord form???
It is obvious you are from the wah lum school and you were taking a stab at the other school. Busted CH!

18elders

12-20-2001, 09:29 AM

The result was that the agressor was disabled and could no longer walk.Lee Kwan Shan told his ex-friend to leave town with his school.Master Chan was rith there when it happened and he was a really young boy.

However before the Yang stylist left with his school, his family begged Lee Kwan Shan to take his younger brother as a disciple and be taugh at his school.That disciple was Mr. Chan Wan Ching, si gung's older kung fu brother.What a mind blower huh?

In your story here it says that the family begged LKS to take the younger brother as a disciple and that it was chan wan ching.
If chan poi saw this then was he already a student of LKS and if so then he is chan wan ching's older kung fu brother.
If he was just there by chance and chan wan ching trained with LKS for 10 years then how old was chan poi when this happened?
If chan poi started when he was 6 and LKS died when he was 10 how did chan wan ching train with LKS for 10 years, that means chan poi was 1 when he saw this? don't think he would remember it and why was he with LKS at 1?

whitewhirlwhind

12-20-2001, 09:59 AM

18 elders

It is true that I am with Wah Lum. It is an honour, for me, to study under such a strong-minded, knowledgeable and skillfull teacher and practitioner of the system. But any serious kung fu student would have recognized the form. And any serious kung fu student would recognize (or work to recognize) applications without the applications being spoon fed to them. A wise teacher once told me I should find six applications (I rarely find six!?) for every move in a form--that is higher level teaching and thinking.

As with the alleged e-mail you possess of a certain sifu in the WLPM system, you hold on to things much too long. Internally, one who does this will ultimately suffer. All people who hold regrets do. You and the others who seek to question why the WLPM system was not handed to them on a platter should simply move on. Focus on your current systems. Learn what you can from your current teachers.

Maybe we all spend too much time in an attempt to answer asinine questions on this thread? Maybe we should all practice our forms and theorize about the applications we can find? Maybe we should all be more secure in our current systems, and apply ourselves to them?

But maybe some people like to suffer.

vixie

12-20-2001, 10:23 AM

"BUSTED"?????

Good grief! ....YOU'RE supposed to be setting an example for CHILDREN!!!???

....oh well, I suppose those who can see will see...and in the end we all die anyway.

Good luck man, I hope you find peace in solitude and silence...

p.s.
Feel free to attack me now, JoeMantis...I'm sure we're all waiting with baited breath for your witty retort...

isol8d

12-20-2001, 10:25 AM

Where was this exposition? When was it? What schools were involved? Inquiring minds want to be in the know.

vixie

12-20-2001, 10:25 AM

you rock :D

18elders

12-20-2001, 10:35 AM

You don't understand about he apps, it is not spoon fed, you can watch someone throw a baseball, sure it looks like i can do that , but can you throw a curve, breaker etc., someone shows you the technique to it. It is the true deeper knowledge of the technique that is taught.

Mantis catches the cicada, give me 6 different applications for it and no you can't use eye poke as one of them.

Pong Lai

12-20-2001, 10:36 AM

argentino:

the names are that of some warm up exercises. I have the exercises, but needed Tainan Mantis' assistance putting a name and movement together on those 3. Have an educated clue, just needed his confirmation. Putting together info for my students and wouldn't provide them incomplete info.

Chinese should be able to be encoded by selecting "view" , "encoding" on your windows. If it comes from me, it would be in Traditional characters. Easier to read than my crude translations.

Who is mantis and who is not? This is intersting and can be simply answered. All known mantis styles have movements that you will find in any particular one of the styles, whether plum flower, 7*, etc.

Just ask yourself or your teacher, does my mantis style have "Go Luo Tsai"? Praying Mantis Catches the Cicada? And if so, ask then what are at least 5 application and counters of each.
These of course are just the tip of the ice berg in regards to foundational tech./appl.

There should be no guessing game in understanding applications, or any need to meditate deep in the dark woods in order to become enlightened of each attack & defense. Why reinvent the wheel? Apllications / Fighting was invented long ago and perfected by our Mantis ancestors. Train Hard, be loyal, shut up and practice, and your teacher will teach you. Make contact when you are drilling and you will be enlightened quickly in what you need to do to progress.

And if you have been with someone for 2,3,5,10 years and still do not have a clue how to use your techniques, (haven't been shown a thing) you are not going to wake up some day and obtain all that missing knowledge. Relocate. It must be a give and take relationship between the teacher and student. Student gives his dedication and loyalty (spiritually "not religious" & monetary) and the teacher will in turn pass along what he has worked so hard to attain.

Maybe I am wrong in this philosophy, perhaps I should STOP teaching applications and two person drills/forms and revert to the humble way of letting the students do all the work. That way I could be on line more often!?!?!

Comes to another point. "Peace, Love, Unity":
If some discussion get out of text and a bit heated, that is fine!
COme on, we study "Martial ARts", just a humble name for "The art of kicking ass." If you do not have a little fire in you, forget the apllications, two person forms/ drills, and sparring, take up pottery and meditation.

18elders

12-20-2001, 10:39 AM

grow up, funny why don't you say that to you buddy whitewhirlwind. It was their comment about the demo that got it going.
An example for kids, yes, fight for what you believe in, seek knowledge.

woliveri

12-20-2001, 11:44 AM

vixie you said you weren't coming back. What happened? Please commit to your previous statement. Why have you lied to us?

vixie

12-20-2001, 12:07 PM

:D HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!! :D

Good one...

Hua Lin Laoshi

12-20-2001, 12:15 PM

The Chan Wan Ching story can be found here http://www.kungfumagazine.com/HomePage/eZine/eZine.htm

Top right COLUMNISTS drop down to Mimi Chan to read the article.

vixie
Welcome back. If you don't like the negativity turning your back on it won't make it go away. Deflect and counter, neutralize the attack. :-)

whitewirlwind
Everyone has their own path to follow. If you're happy with where you are and what you're learning then stick with it and enjoy. What's right for you and what's right for 18Elders is entirely different. I've seen good and bad in all the schools I've been in and I can't say one is better than the other, just different. I have my preferences but that's my opinion, what's right for me. Other most likely wouldn't agree and I respect their opinion but still believe what I believe. Guess I'm just stubborn like that.

I don't know who all the players are here but I do know most of you and you're all good people. You should expouse the merits of your school or Sifu rather than elevating yourself or your school by picking apart others. I think we could all gain a lot more knowledge while at the same time deciding what's right for each of us.

I am getting old, I'm starting to sound like a wimp. 20 years ago I would have called you all out over some of these remarks. :-)

Robinf

12-20-2001, 12:36 PM

Thanks for the link. I hadn't seen that article before.

And to the poster here who said TKD is a simpler system and asked TKD folk to not take offense: none taken. I've been studying TKD for almost 8 years and it is a simple system.

Robin

Olethros

12-20-2001, 02:15 PM

"Furthermore the pervasive controlling attitude which the WL sifu's exhibit over their students is disgusting.
The attititude of don't question, do as I say. Don't look elsewhere for answers.... "

But, isn't this how it was done traditionally in China?
What we in America see as "controlling" was normal training procedure in traditional Kung Fu instruction, if I'm not mistaken.

Maybe soemone can correct me on this, but it seems alot of former students are noting that they didn't learn many applications. Are there any former disciples that have similar feelings?

NorthernMantis

12-20-2001, 02:31 PM

Looks like Hua Lin beat me to the punch (no pun intended:D ).

18 elders, sigung was there when he was a small child yes but I'm guessing he might have learned about it when he got older from his other kung fu brothers.

18elders

12-20-2001, 02:33 PM

He was taken from the banquet hall to be attended by his students. Among the shocked onlookers was a small boy of seven years old and the last, and perhaps most brilliant, disciple to be taken by Master Lee. That young disciple's name was Chan Poi. The boy, who at the time didn't know what the Master had done later discovered from the acupuncturist who treated Master Yun that Master Lee had used the Dim Mak (death touch) to disable his younger rival.

Master Lee had always liked Master Yun and for years they had gotten on very well. It was only during recent times that there was trouble between them, and it was in honor of their years of friendship that he only crippled him rather than conclude the duel with his usual finality. Yun was told to leave town with all his students and to never return. One of Master Lee's students begged him to relent and let his brother, a disciple of Yun's, stay in the village. Master Lee finally gave in and the young brother not only studied with Master Lee but became his senior disciple and inherited the system on Master Lee's demise in 1948. The man was Chan Wan Ching

In this article by Mimi it states Chan poi was 7 when this happened. That is when chan wan ching started to study with LKS. LKS died when chan poi was 10 so that means chan wan ching only trained with LKS for 3 years.
This brings up my original point, I don't think LKS's knowledge of praying mantis was passed on.
It seems wahlum is lacking in the mantis area compared to what i have seen and learned. That's why i have questioned it because i thought i was learning mantis in wah lum but it is way different from what i have learned now.
When you guys go to china why does everyone get so excited about learning mantis from master jang? Why not go learn more from wah lum people?
I'm not bashing it , just trying to find out unanswered questions that many people have in wah lum.

woliveri

12-20-2001, 03:03 PM

When you guys go to china why does everyone get so excited about learning mantis from master jang? Why not go learn more from wah lum people?

Excellent 18Elders. Why also water your kung fu down with Choy Lee Fut, Chen Tai Chi, Wing Chung, and any other outside school seminar that doesn't pertain to WL. And then tell your students you'll get kicked out if you take a seminar from another school.

I, for one, fully support your quest for the answers, keep it up. I don't know why anyone currently in WL wouldn't also be interested in the answers.

I am getting old, I'm starting to sound like a wimp. 20 years ago I would have called you all out over some of these remarks. :-)

I guess we can thank father time for saving all our @sses. :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

Swannee

12-20-2001, 03:34 PM

"Busted CH!"

Sorry, Steve it wasn't me.

Hope everyone has a nice holiday...

CH

Hua Lin Laoshi

12-20-2001, 04:10 PM

18Elders
Got an answer for you right here. For some reason, and I don't know if it was intentional or not, Wah Lum is often percieved as a Mantis style when in fact it's more Tam Tui with some Mantis hand techniques added because LKS liked them and they worked. Look at the name: Wah Lum TAM TUI Northern Praying Mantis System. Just in the name alone Tam Tui comes first indicating a higher priority. Why would LKS add a little bit of his family style (which he most likely spent his life learning) to Praying Mantis? It makes more sense that he added a little bit of Praying Mantis to Tam Tui.
Ni dong ma?

Now let's look at the CWC story. Master Chan started with LKS at 6 (1942). The incident took place when he was 7 (1 year with LKS - 1943) at which time he convinced LKS to teach his brother CWC. Five years later LKS dies - 1948(Master Chan 12). Master Chan trained 6 years, CWC 5 years. According to Tainan Mantis CWC left at an early age to train in Hong Kong. Did he return to complete Master Chan's training? If so then who did Master Chan train with during that time? If CWC became LKS's senior disciple did he inherit the system at less than 12 years of age (being the younger brother)? Did Master Chan go to Hong Kong with CWC and return years later? Now does this mean that LKS never passed on the system? Not at all. What happened to the senior students that trained before Master Chan and his brother? There are still many sources for the two of them to have completed the system. The timeline just isn't matching up. Eventually the story will be told. Until then we'll all wonder but either way the fact is, Master Chan knows his stuff and is capable of demonstrating it even to this day.

Let me know when the limb I'm on starts breaking. :) :) :)

Hua Lin Laoshi

12-20-2001, 04:25 PM

My opinions are mine alone. I don't claim to have any special knowledge of Wah Lum history or what transpired before my first day at the Temple. These are my own views according to what I've seen and heard. The real story could be entirely different but that's for someone else with more intimate knowledge of events to tell.

Obligatory on topic comment:
Wo hen xi huan tang lang quan. Personally I would like to learn more mantis. I've taken quite an interest in it over the years.

woliveri

12-20-2001, 04:35 PM

Hey Hua Lin, where are you learning your Chinese Pin Yin from? When I was in O-Town the sources were few and far between. Heaven forbid a Community College offer it like they do out here in the "real" world :-).

Pong Lai

12-20-2001, 05:03 PM

"But, isn't this how it was done traditionally in China?
What we in America see as "controlling" was normal training procedure in traditional Kung Fu instruction, if I'm not mistaken. "

Sorry to bust a bubble, though the American idea of how things were and are done in Asia are misleading and often incorrect.
Religion has nothing to do and is not part of Martial ARts training. If the teacher had bad vibes about you, you were disloyal, or seldom in attendence, you were not taught applications. If you went to class, worked hard, paid your dues, you were often "shown" multiple applications, theories, and all that good stuff.
I am sure one thinks everyone in China is a great Martial Arts practitioner, as Chinese think we Americans are all great Basketball and golfers.

It is impossible (to me at least) for any teacher to possess an encyclopedia of applicational knowledge and NEVER to let any out of his bag.

Research is key to better understanding your ARt and where you are in the scope of the Art. Thus the purpose of forums such as this. I personally offer and encorouge inquiring practioners to observe and enter dialogue with every other school in town before signing on with us. Even provide addreses and numbers. Know what your getting into before the long term committment.

"Spoon fed"?? Teach me, Teach me so I may get on with actually practicing the techniques and "mastering" them!

7kicks

12-20-2001, 06:30 PM

18ELDERS I train in Quincy massachusetts under sifu Nelson Chan who I am extremely grateful to have at my reach for any questions I may encounter in my training.

18elders

12-21-2001, 06:31 AM

7 kicks
Did you learn his double dagger vs. empty hand set? Does Nelson have any good stories on LKS ?

Hua lin,
I agree with you about the name tam tui comes first but the logo is all mantis, maybe it should be different?
I'm sure he combined the two but he also would have taught strictly mantis sets.
I like big mantis alot, are there many more strictly mantis sets?

Question about seminars: When Chan takes you guys to china there is no problem to learn from different masters and even different styles. Same at tournaments, then why would he get mad if you did one of Master Shr's seminars?

Hua Lin Laoshi

12-21-2001, 07:54 AM

woliveri
I picked up a little chinese while in China back in September. A friend in Zhengzhou helped me out. Also the big book, thanks Fuzzy. Anyhow, I've been trying to keep at it and I've been learning on my own. Mostly from looking up words on the Internet. I also talk to China on a daily basis through a Chinese chat program. I now have friends in Beijing, Harbin, Shanghai, Guangzhou, Shenzhen and others (they all want me to help them with English).

7kicks
How's it going in the cold NorthEast? Someday I'll get up there to see the schools and meet everyone but it has to warm up a bit first. :-)

18Elders
Only Master Chan knows why he does what he does. I guess it depends on his relationship with the other Masters. I don't know what relationship he has with Master Shr, if any, so I don't know whether he would get mad or not. Since there seems to be a slight conflict (I sense a little tension) I suspect he wouldn't approve.

I haven't learned Big Mantis yet but it's definitely a good one. I need to get 5th form first. Finally, gettin' to the good stuff!

18elders

12-21-2001, 09:42 AM

Master Chan told doc. that 5th form has the best fighting techniques of all the forms so you should like it. Big mantis is still my favorite.
I also don't know the tension, i was disappointed when Chan wouldn't let Master Shr perfrom in the Masters demo for the Wah lum tournament 2000. He came all the way from Taiwan for it and they wouldn't let him perform. It is a Masters demo, i would've prefered to see more Masters and less skits.
Thanks for your help with the questions

NorthernMantis

12-21-2001, 11:31 AM

18elders-

There were a lot of masters there that night,real good masters that would have cleaned house and let you awe but the demo was done extremely late at night.There simply wasn't enough time to keep doing it.I guess Master Shr wasn't allowed to perform not because of any tension porbably because si gung wanted to end the demo as early as possible.I remeber my mom and family complaining about when it was going to end and I left before seeing all of it.It doesn't mean anything.

Chan Sau Chung and some others perfomed and they didn't show up on the video highlights.Does that mean that there's something weird going on?No it's not,there wasn't enough money or time for the production of the tape.

SaMantis

12-21-2001, 04:31 PM

I'm with Northern Mantis here -- I was at the master's demo. They had to end it because it was running long and because there was a master's banquet after.

18elders, I remember there being only 1 skit (I'll have to review the tape again) during the demo, and 1 chi kung guy who did little tricks. There were a lot of masters there and a few didn't get to perform because of the time constraint. The Shaolin monks were a featured part of the performance so they took up more time, too.

As far as the videotape -- money played a factor because the tournament was done for charity and dropping 20 grand for a production crew was not an option; the taping was done pro bono (free) and none of the video guys were martial artists. For example there was only one cameraman for the master's demo, and just before Chan Sau Chung came on the camera batteries ran out. Also, every time he went to another spot in the gym to shoot from, he skipped a performance. Some masters were left out because of this and not because of any ill will on Si Gung's part. Sifu Mimi did her best to put together a good video from what she had.

I went to a master's demo at a karate tournament last summer that was the longest frickin' bore I've ever had to sit through; we got there at about six o'clock and by 11 p.m. they weren't even half finished thanks to all the long-winded speeches, skits, demos, skits and skits that every school in attendance put on. I snuck out and found several others working their way out, too; they couldn't sit around for hours just to see the one or two masters they wanted to see perform.

Sifu Mimi tried to accommodate everybody. Tell me, 18elders, was Master Shr disappointed that he couldn't perform? Or just you?

Sam

18elders

12-21-2001, 09:06 PM

Of course i was disappointed as was many others that know master Shr.
I'm not sure if you mean that there was Masters that were supposed to perform but didn't because of time restraints but Master Shr was not allowed to at all. He was not on the list of performers.
I think it would've been a bit more diplomatic to say we will put you on the list but if we are pressed for time you may not be able to perform than flat out saying no.
He is the head coach for the Taiwanese Kung fu team and knows many people here. His good friend is the head of the Koushu federation here and i'm sure they would have like to see their kung fu brother perform.
Master Shr wasn't too disappointed, he knows why.
He did perform but not during the demo, after the demo some people met him and he was showing them dzai yao behind the stage. He actually corrected someone's form and showed them part of the 2 person set and demonstrated some techniques so some people where able to appreciate his knowledge.

I haven't seen the tape but i thought there was 2 skits, i may be wrong?

chrisreed

12-22-2001, 02:26 PM

hey 9drag. it should not be hard to find vix.. after reading your posts im guessing your married to her. i have not figured out who whirl is. no one at our school has anythng that was not true and you are welcome to come by. whats up with that contrived poem, look down to see who is wearing purple. and a retort to your poem : a liar with a shaved head is not a monk. not trying to be lame. i am learning mantis. not just learning chinese lit. "9 dragons".

Hua Lin Laoshi

12-22-2001, 04:57 PM

18Elders
I've seen 5th Form enough to see that it has some good fighting moves. The forms seem to start getting good after about 36 Hands.

You're right, there were two skits at Tournament 2000. Most don't remember the second one because of a lack of Kung Fu. Quite a few people left after the first one. I know, I was in the audience. I was a bit angry myself because I wasn't included in the show but now I'm glad I wasn't. I don't do well in front of crowds anyhow.

18elders

12-24-2001, 06:30 AM

Well i can't blame the people for leaving, i thought it was boring myself. probably because i have seen the skits so many times but actually i thought that was the worst i had every seen them perform it.
I know they wanted to kind of promote Wah lum but i would have much prefered Master Chan perform and forget the skits and have more time for many more Masters to do the demo.
Anyways that's in the past so nothing can be done about it.
Master Shr was going to come over for Nics tournament at the Bayfront in St. Pete but i'm not sure he is having it this year.

Hope you have a nice Christmas.

SaMantis

12-24-2001, 12:32 PM

You're right, I guess there were 2 skits. I must have blocked them out, because I remember them being downright painful. No bashing intended here; I'd seen the Star Wars skit before and it was done better.

18elders, I haven't heard anything about a St. Pete tournament either. That's too bad -- I had a good time at last year's event!

Hey, what am I doing online? I'm supposed to be out Christmas shopping! :eek:

Merry Holidays and happy Christmas --

Sam

PlayingMantis

01-02-2002, 04:45 PM

Vixie: You are the most hypocritical person I have never met. You say people should be training yet you, yourself are doing little more than developing you stubby fingers and ego. If you are so far above these people why do you post that you won't post but do post?

18elders: Why do you care about the history of other people is you are no longer part of the system. History is created by man and ****roaches do not give birth to butterflies. If this history is shrouded in mystery, does that really affect you? History is only what people choose to remember. If you spend so much time worrying about other peoples business, how can you develop your system to its full potential.

Joe Mantis: Joe Camel? see above ^^ both...Southern? Are you some kind of moron? or just really really stupid.

Chrisreed: I noticed in one of your "witty" retorts that you quote Socrates and his allegory of the cave. However, it most definately is found in Plato's Republic not Socrates' Republic (which does not exist, just so you know..... unless you own the only copy) and most likely is Plato's belief. I just guess you just are not the studious type. Funny how you insult people for quoting stuff, and yet in your attempts to sound educated you misquote people and sound stupid. Maybe you should study more so you can atleast sound smart.

9dragonshijin: What the hell is a shijin? My Grandma used to say "Why buy the cow when you can get the sex for free?" See we all can do it. Quotes only mean anything when others can make sense of them, otherwise they simply serve to feed your "enlightened" ego. If the world stinks would you swim in sh*t?

Whitewhirldwhind: there is no "h" in wind. But I guess it is okay because you are Jesus. At least with that parable told, that is what I assume you meant to establish. Ironically, you threw gasoline on the fire instead preaching Peace. 18elders simply presented "questions" and you started the feud. I don't get why you tell it like you are unbiased, when clearly you are not. It sounds drug induced, at least I hope thats the explanation. Your a Facade you not son of man. Charlatan.

NorthernMantis: What makes you so educated after 19 short years of life? P.S. only 124 lbs , do you work in the circus. How about some dwarf tossing?

Pong Lai: I take it you are "the man" since you readily make challenges to people you have never met using the anonymity. I would like a free trip, send one of those tickets ("challenges" ) my way.... wait you don't know me

wolverine: you misspelt your name, just so you know.

Hua la fa shin din dim sum etc....: How far along are you, you remind of one Obi Wan Kenobi.

You all are pretty pathetic to be issuing challenges/insults over the internet. You all sound like a bunch of illiterate slack jawed yokels. I am glad you guys feel the need to degrade yourself and free exchange of ideas via the internet, but what should I expect?

:mad:

MightyOak

01-02-2002, 05:05 PM

I have enjoyed perusing this here forum for many months. However, I decided this thread because of all the replies it had recieved. At times little of it made sense. Eventhough most of what was said was garbage with little insight. However just as you stated this is a forum for the "free exchange of ideas." You try to sound smart and yet you do not practice what you preach. You are a bigger hypocrit than vixie, who was only presenting his point of view and opinions. While there are some vague insults present within this posting. Yours was by far the most direct and offensive. I find it humurous that you resorted to swearing within your post but yet present yourself as these peoples' better. What gives you the right to condemn these people. :confused: You question their motives and yet you seem to lack any. do you know any of these people? It does not sound like you do, but that does not stop you from posting hate filled replies on the internet. Just wanted to give you something to think about even though you probably are going to just make fun of me too. Word to the not so wise. Just my opinion could be right , could be wrong, thats the beauty of the internet.

Pong Lai

01-02-2002, 07:48 PM

Playing Mantis:

Thanks for the "The Man" compliment. Never looked at myself in that manner.
If you would like to know more about me just ask! Nothing to hide.
I am assuming that any difference in tactics, theories, or questions (in the form of doubtfulness), Means a challenge in your world. Fine with me.
As far as challenges, internet or otherwise, no bluff here. Send me your details to book.
Post on line or email me as posted on my KFO profile.

chrisreed

01-02-2002, 08:46 PM

playing,

it was more pf a typeo then a mistake in knowledge.
i caught the elementry mistake the next day; however, i did not change it. see, i was not trying to sound smart i was actually make a point. i am glad that you noticed it but if anyone took my advice i am sure they could of found the info with just socrates, since evrery thing in the republic was socrate any way.

are you going to take pong lai up on his offer? we've got great weather.

isol8d

01-03-2002, 06:00 AM

Great weather?!? 47 degrees and overcast? The coldest chill of the season? I'd suggest waiting until about March or April.

When you practise outdoors in the cold, do you wear a sweatshirt?

Just wondering.

18elders

01-03-2002, 06:56 AM

Even though i'm not in the system i still have many kung fu brothers i keep i touch with. It is a topic we spoke about so i asked on the forum because nobody knew.

At least you realized it was whitewhrilwind who got things going.

Hua Lin Laoshi

01-03-2002, 08:10 AM

PlayingMantis
Great post. Insulting people for insulting others. Way to go. Proved you're much better than everyone one else. And you are ???? nobody according to your profile. Do you just play mantis or are you serious? How about contributing something instead of insulting people you don't know. My suggestion is either post intelligently or go back to lurking. We don't need anymore insulting crap posts from people afraid the make their names, MA style, experience etc. known to others. Tear into me all you want, I won't respond until you talk civilized.

BTW, my name is David Scott and you can find me at the Wah Lum Temple in Orlando, Florida. Stop by anytime.

NorthernMantis

01-03-2002, 02:23 PM

Originally posted by PlayingMantis

NorthernMantis: What makes you so educated after 19 short years of life? P.S. only 124 lbs , do you work in the circus. How about some dwarf tossing?

You all are pretty pathetic to be issuing challenges/insults over the internet. You all sound like a bunch of illiterate slack jawed yokels. I am glad you guys feel the need to degrade yourself and free exchange of ideas via the internet, but what should I expect?

:mad: [/B]

Playing Mantis ....

How about I pop you one in the mouth.You're such a fool don't you know when it comes to knowledge quality is more important than quantity?I have done research and I know the kung fu I learned well thank you very much.What makes you think you know more about my style than I do?Wait I forgot you're the wah lum expert :rolleyes:Not only that I have pretty good knowldge on other styles as well.

I may be 124 lbs but I'm 124 lbs of muscle.I train my butt off almost everyday (I thank God for helping me push myself through so much pain becaume I am nothing without Him) and you can ask my kung fu brothers about that.I bet I am in better shape than you are.You're probably some fat lazy kung fu wanabe who's been in martial arts for a long time hasn't progressed an inch.Tossing?How about I toss your sorry behind on the floor?

I never threw challenges or insults in this thread until now,hey you're the one who came with insults and on your first post.Look who si making himself look dumb?

At least 18elders and Pong Lai had a brain to post something with content.You ,Playing Mantis, aren't worth anything.

I have nothing againts Woliveri,18elders,or Pong Lai I'm simply defending my style.I still repect them as people.I have talked to woliveri before without a problem.Just because we have different views doesn't mean I hate them.

You're the hypocrite.I assume you calim to be a martial artist [ I think] since you're posting online and you come in here throwing insults and challenges.What's worse even on yor first post.I hope you do take on Pong Lai and he tosses you around.You have nothing to contribute to this thread.

As our friend Miighty Oak stated

While there are some vague insults present within this posting. Yours was by far the most direct and offensive. I find it humurous that you resorted to swearing within your post but yet present yourself as these peoples' better. What gives you the right to condemn these people. You question their motives and yet you seem to lack any. do you know any of these people?

Playing Mantis....you mean like a wu shu player?

************************************************** **

The official bat boy

a.k.a: the chair thrower

SaMantis

01-03-2002, 04:41 PM

Whew! I wasn't in there, but just a couple things:

1. I'm the one who asked vixie to come back, she's no hypocrite as far as I know. She took things a little personally and I told her not to worry about it (check the lion dance thread).

2. Hua Lin IS Obi-Wan! :D :D :D Didn't anyone tell you? He's very good, I'm not saying that just because he's my si hing.

Relax, Player!

Peace,

Sam

woliveri

01-04-2002, 10:28 AM

PlayingMantis was just fishing and it looks like he got a couple of bites. Just ignore, don't respond to the ignorance and he/she/it will pass.

8secretherbs

01-05-2002, 08:10 PM

The mantis who plays
may be shrowded in haze
His reflections and projections
are merely instropections
Hidden in the abyss
he deals a fat dis
there's more than meets the eyes
it is a lesson in disguise
his ideals have come to fruition
What you lack is this intuition
You have fallen prey to his trap
So you sit around and spew crap
The mantis from the north
bit at what was put forth
He ended up like the fair fish
that loses its scales for the dish
The tree that stood strong
perhaps has it wrong
The situation of the present
brought out sides unpleasant
Those who want to prove their might
challenge that which is out of sight
I sit here alone
watching everyone groan
All composure has been lost
but at precisely what cost?

PlayingMantis

01-06-2002, 12:01 AM

Wow.....You guys are soooo smart. You figured out that I was a "wushu playa" from just one post. Got something againt us wushuers? What's the official sport of China?? That's what I thought.

My apologies , one Dave Scott of the Wah Lum Temple Orlando, Florida aka Obi Wan Kenobi. I did not realize you were so important. Wait.... your not. Are you the Colonel? NO. Bet you don't even do chicken right. While you are a clown, your not the clown. I mean you don't own McDonalds. And you are correct, I am a no one, but then again, who are you? You cannot be much because you paid attention to me......nothing.

Northern Mantis....... I valiantly accept your challenge. I assume you'll be the midget that stands front and center.
P.S. I wrote you a poem.....to match the guy above.
The mantis from the north
is still a friggin dwarf.

8secretherbs: Loved the love poem....I didn't know you cared. However, I decline your subtle invitation. And you are completely wrong these people are losers.

wolive....wolverine....... I saw the pics they were great for a laugh. Hah Hah Hah....hehehe.....

Samantis: Nothing but Love i suppose......You didn't take my "bait" even though I didn't aim at you. I suppose wolverine didn't either but..........pictures are worth a thousand words and we all know how I think.

Olethros: Missed ya in round one......How the heck* did that happen.*(note I am civilized)

18elders: Most impressive. Despite the fact that I insulted you directly, you answered me in civilized and rational tone. You gave good answers and maintained your composure. Solidarity Brother.

Pong Lai: Me being a wushuee realize you would probably pumble me(beat the snot out of me). I am not as stupid as I may seem. However, it is paradoxical that you should juxtapose such an invitation with my satirical tyrade about you issuing challenges over the internet all the time. If we must duel then I choose pistols at high noon. (any weather in Florida is better than that in Ohio).

Chrisreed: While that mistake is not really elementary, seeing how Socrates didn't write anything. However, most anyone would note the mistake and be able to locate the reference. Nevertheless, in my attempts to get all the people posting (although I missed a few) it did provide the perfect example to exemplify what I was saying. Ultimately it was a cheap shot at a reasonable/understandable mistake.

Mightyoak: I am glad you have faith in me. Your point had a little validity until Northenmantis quoted you. That is when it all went down hill(in your terms, the toilet). I noted that was your only post. Plumber....... I am honored that you have so much love for me. It is funny that you should defend these people that you do not even know. I feel that I was demonstrating a point, but obviosly your career suits you, being a cleaner of the crapper. I mean, read most of these peoples posts. They spend time arguing over trivial stuff and get all riled up over nothing, from nobodies. Apparently, I don't sugar-coat (heh heh) my points enough for you.

Whitewhirlwhind: When are you going to accept the truth and apologize for starting this trouble. I feel you owe us all an apology. I came to this board to find information, but instead found a whole bunch of bickering. While you did feed the fire, gasoline does not start fires.........

chrisreed

01-07-2002, 08:14 AM

playing,

it is elementary as far as philo. goes. as far as i know everything in the republic was socrates. i am sure that plato spiced it up.

i could take a cheap shot at your first sentence or should i say fragment. i do not mean to i am only pointing out that it was a cheap shot. what i was saying i do think is true. so many of the people posting on this site are ill-informed. they do as they are told and are feed info they take as truth. that was the point i was making. you seem like you could understand that.( don't worry i am not trying to make assumption of who you are.)

chris

NorthernMantis

01-07-2002, 08:30 AM

Stupid ballerina. We’ll see how small I am when I cut your ego down to size. Schedule a date ‘cause it’s on now. Not now though since I just scraped my knee real bad but soon as it heals make the date. In the mean time post your stats, school, style, what styles you had experience in or against, current sifu, who you have trained under,how many years you have trained. I want this to be as public as possible so nothing will be held back and there will be no speculations. However this isn’t about style vs. style. It’s about me whipping your sorry behind for insulting me. I will post the same after you have done first. Some people know me here but you have no info.

NorthernMantis

01-07-2002, 08:42 AM

Wait till tomorrow though and I will talk to my sifu about it today when I go to class.If she agrees then it will be official.Can't issue a challenge without permision.

Hua Lin Laoshi

01-07-2002, 09:22 AM

Cool your jets there NorthernMantis. Playing Mantis is just pushing buttons. Some people get their kicks that way. I recommend ignoring him until he posts some useful content. Let's stick with the thread topics or create new ones. I think this one is about played out since nobody has been able to give more than just a guesstimate and it really doesn't add any value to your training.

isol8d

01-08-2002, 07:18 AM

This thread has been very interesting. If you filter out the crap in this & 18 Old Men thread, you get some neat insite into the history of Wah Lum students here in Florida.

Tainan Mantis

01-08-2002, 08:03 AM

It seems that the abbot of Wah Lum temple learned from Liang Hsueh Hsiang or a brother or disciple of his.

The reason I think this is because from Liang we get the Taiji and Mei Hwa split.
In Mei hwa they are missing beng bu, 7* is missing 8 elbows, only Wah Lum and TJPM have all three old forms.
It seems Liang new all three but his students who are in Mei Hwa didn't.

This is just a theory. Does anyone have info to support or contradict it?

If Wah Lum's last 2 forms became visible like they are in TJPM and Mei Hwa then we could make a better judgement.

MightyB

01-08-2002, 08:24 AM

Is there a site or some pics. that show or describe 8 Elbows? I'm curious as to what it looks like. What are some of 8 Elbows's key principles and theories?

Hua Lin Laoshi

01-08-2002, 01:01 PM

I'm interested as well. Let's kick this to a new thread on basic mantis forms and their differences from style to style. I'll fire it up.

Brad

01-09-2002, 10:20 PM

PlayingMantis,

(any weather in Florida is better than that in Ohio).
Do you live in Ohio? Our school is the only wushu school I know of in Ohio. Who's your coach?

Brad

01-09-2002, 10:27 PM

If you don't want to say anything publicly, you can just email me.

PlayingMantis

01-11-2002, 11:53 PM

Brad: Yes I do live in Ohio. My coach is An Tian Rong. Where do you train? However, I was interested in other forms of martial arts..........therefore, I came here looking for information, but found lots of bickering.
:o

NorthernMantis: Since you are MIA, I guess you backed out of your challenge. Guess that happens when you get a scraped knee. I had one of those when I was little. I cried for weeks. Realistically, I don't think you would be able to fly out here from where ever you are. I'm glad you proved my point better than I ever could have. Please don't "pop" me in the mouth, I mean no harm. You're obviosly a big hulking stud. I mean you speak with such authority and are "pure muscle." What was your sifu's response? Seriously though, if your such a dedicated martial artist why do you bother with this stuff? I simply wanted to prove a point. Take this time, and possibly your planeflight, to reflect on what you have allowed yourself to succumb to.

Now for some real stuff......I need information please. I was interested in Wushu mantis forms, and I was wondering if anyone can tell me the origins of it? What styles have influenced and have been used to derive it? Can anyone tell what styles of kung fu would not be completely foreign to my Wushu training? (i.e. if i decided to take a traditional style)

Tainan Mantis

01-12-2002, 06:16 AM

Playing Mantis,
Not a bad question on wushu mantis, but you'll have to convince me that you can talk like a gentleman before I answer any of your questions.

Brad

01-12-2002, 07:57 AM

PlayingMantis,

It seems we have the same teacher. I'm Brad Bauman, the Taiji guy. Please email me: bradbauman@worldnet.att.net I know a little bit about the mantis form you're talking about.

PlayingMantis

01-12-2002, 08:53 PM

Brad: Due to the nature of my posts I would prefer to remain anonymous. However, I will inform that I am relitivaly new, and I think I know who you are(not sure, no offense). I must say, I am quite surprised that I stumbled upon one of my fellow trainees. :eek:

Tainian Mantis: Umm.... would you like me to fly to Taiwan and hold a door open for you? Maybe recite some poetry? Throw me a bone.... I don't think that I am a Gentleman......Anyways isn't that something you only do to impress the ladies??? I'm not a knight....I don't ride horses..... I mean seriously I didn't say anything to you....You don't know me..... I am like the Angel of death.... The day of reckoning came and passed..... You were spared from the onslaught....I think you ought to be greatful.... You didn't spew garbage so you weren't smited by my fiery sword.......of anger and hatred. I meant everything I said. No remorse. Is it gentlemanly to lie to these people and pretend I am something I am not? We will dance in a chariot of fire. I have rubbed you the wrong way and now you try to censor me. You wreak of communism.COMMUNISM!!! I could care less if you answer my question or not, but I will not pretend to be something for you. Sorry..... Simply put, just becuase you do not agree with me, does not mean I am not your peer......
I don't practise what I preach, 'cos I'm not the kind of person I'm preaching to. Pure hatred is the purest form of love.

flem

01-12-2002, 08:56 PM

playing mantis

tainanmantis must have a good heart, if you want to learn mantis wushu i suggest you hold your hands as if you have chopsticks and jump around, maybe throw in a few splits, as for help, i don't think you should look here. it is too late to talk like a gentleman

oh, could you write me a poem too!

PlayingMantis

01-12-2002, 09:02 PM

Remarkable.....3 minutes??? Gotta blow my nose....see ya in a few...... Got something against wushu??? Who are you? You don't own the internet......only the founder does (Al Gore)

flem

01-12-2002, 09:15 PM

(impersonating) mantis,

was that the poem, it didn't rhyme
wushu is fine, so is the polka
i am al gore, get off my internet

MightyOak

01-12-2002, 09:22 PM

You are really weird. You're starting to scare me. Do you live in a unibomber style shack? I hope Northernmantis tosses your behind like it has never been tossed before. Then I hope he thrashes you with his tongue like no other and puts you in your place. I too would like a poem. I'm a lady.WOW me!:p I take it you don't get the ladies and that's why you don't care to be a gentleman??? :confused: Hey 8secretherbs, I liked your poetic response. I added some flav to this thread.

PlayingMantis

01-12-2002, 09:36 PM

I really don't expect much more
seeing how you claim to be Mr. Gore
Truth be told your just an internet *****
I bet your social life is a bore
I came here to make the mind soar
however, dealing with you is more like a chore
What do I do this for?
to simply touch you at the core
Now why you feed on a smore
you have chosen the wrong war
I smite you like Thor
You probably resemble a boar
Do you live your life in lore
cuz you seem like your really poor
Not with friends but rather your losing score
It's time I showed you the door
A new butt hole I have tore
I hope you are not sore
But, you have hit the floor
Your like the idiot of yore
Stuck up a river w/o an oar
Shuddup and hear me roar
Oh the Horror, the Horror!

Brad

01-13-2002, 12:12 AM

Brad: Due to the nature of my posts I would prefer to remain anonymous. However, I will inform that I am relitivaly new, and I think I know who you are(not sure, no offense). I must say, I am quite surprised that I stumbled upon one of my fellow trainees.
No offense takin. I pretty much stay out of club affairs, while I work on Taiji over in my corner of the room :P It's my own fault for not getting to know all your names yet. I would like you to apologize and treat others with respect. You're still a beginer, with less than 6 months of experience in wushu. I don't think Prof. An would aprove of this kind of behaviour.

China Village

01-13-2002, 04:32 AM

You've insulted just about eveybody in the KFO world, and you've hurt me deeply. I am formally challenging you. The fight will have to take place in about two weeks because I got a paper cut while opening a box of Twinkees. But after the cut heals I'm gonna pop you in the jaw for insulting all of us. Please send me your name, address, date of birth, social security number, and a cashier's check for $80,000 (to cover the medical costs of you kicking my arse) . This isn't about money though, it's about me teaching you a lesson for insulting all of KFO. You're going to have 110 pounds of pure muscle to deal with when I get to Ohio.

China Village

01-13-2002, 04:36 AM

We'll have to wait to make my challenge official. I have to make sure my mom will let me borrow her Yugo so I can drive to Ohio. I'll talk to her about it tomorrow and post after I know if I can come or not. You'd better pray that the welfare check didn't come yet so I don't have enough gas money to drive all 4' 9" of myself up there to teach you a lesson.

NorthernMantis

01-13-2002, 06:55 AM

Heh that was my hot Colombian blood talking.Pretty funny CV.I haven't been missing.I'll post another time when I can on another thread to repond to both of you questions.

I suggest that you both stop acting like trolls and change your behavior.Wether you know it or not your making your school and coach lose face.Many martial artists come to these boards.

Oh and CV I hurt my knee sparring one of my cma friends.:D

$80,000?Hey I'm not Ashida Kim now.

Later

flem

01-13-2002, 09:16 AM

china village

weren't you jut sow?

China Village

01-13-2002, 04:07 PM

Northern Mantis:

I suggest that you both stop acting like trolls and change your behavior.Wether you know it or not your making your school and coach lose face.Many martial artists come to these boards.

I think you should take a piece of your own advice. Out of all the moronic posts on this thread (and there are many, including my own) I think yours are the worst. You challenged Pong Lia, and then backed down. You challenged Playing Mantis, and then took it back. You and your mythical Doug Flutie like body shouldn't be challenging anybody. But since you lose your temper and get too big for your Superman Underoos I think you deserve to get shredded by both of them (and I'm sure you would).....Maybe you should give up this whole Kung Fu thing. I mean, you've got the build to be a succesful NFL kicker. It would be your dream come true. You would be surrounded by hundreds of people who are much bigger than you that could beat the living snot out of you. Then you could talk smack to them, and hide behind the big guys on your side. OH WAIT, you've already got that here. My bad...

Flem:
Not sure what you're talking about. I study Ju Jitsu.

flem

01-13-2002, 06:14 PM

china village

you sure. you remind me of jut sow. have you studied anything else?

SaMantis

01-13-2002, 06:26 PM

Hi there jut sow, how nice to hear from you again. :rolleyes:

I think you and PlayingMantis are mistaking NM for Ralek. The difference is, NM actually studies CMA; Ralek plays video games.

PlayingMantis, I think your first post was to take jabs at people you perceived to be trolls, for what, to teach them a lesson? Their opinions will remain the same; you can't change that. People poke fun at Wah Lum just like people poke fun at wushu. No use getting mad, just study your martial art, get good at it, and prove them wrong. Listen to your si hing Brad.

p.s. do you study with An Tianrong at Ohio State? How's that going?

jut sow -- er I mean, "China Village," that last post was pure trolling. I think a few people on this forum could post some not-so-nice things about you. All NM's guilty of is having a temper, and he admits it.

Sam

NorthernMantis

01-13-2002, 07:12 PM

That's a promise Hua Lin

Listen up this is my last post on this thread so read it well!Open up a new thread if you have to!

SaMantis-

I think Pong Lai was the first to invite NM to a challenge ... I need to follow the thread back to confirm it one way or the other. In any case the challenge would have to go through the temple in Orlando..

flem-

samantis

do you know northern mantis? what makes you think he needs to worry? by the way pong lai gave the invite- at least thats my impression

Hua Lin Laoshi-

Ok, Pong Lai read flem's comment about learning fighting techiques from Master Chan as a challenge. NorthernMantis let his hot Colombian blood get the best of him and said come on over and fight. Hey, I was just as hotheaded when I was his age. He has since retracted his personal invitation to fight in favor of my statement that the Wah Lum Temple will handle any challenges to the system. Don't say we can't fight unless you're prepared to come down and find out. My previous posts were personal opinions. Now I speak for Wah Lum and the Temple. You say Wah Lum stinks then tell it to Master Chan and the Wah Lum Sifu's personally.

Who challenged who?

Originally posted by Pong lai

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wake up and smell thr roses, do your own research, learn Chinese, (your learn much more about what your studying) and perhaps consider another forum that pertains to your style, southern kung fu . The WL practitioner will then start to understand the forum contents. Obviously you are unable to particpate in the Northern Praying Mantis Section because you have NOTHING within your style that relates beasides a Name!

Who was trolling?

You challenged Playing Mantis, and then took it back.

I never took anything back.My si hing Hua Lin advised me not to post again on this thread and I was going to open a new one to discuss it with him.I sent my sifu an e-mail since she wasn't in Florida at the time.I will open up a new thread soon on this matter.

You and your mythical Doug Flutie like body shouldn't be challenging anybody.

I have the experience, the knowledge, and the Colombian background to do so.I'm not as thin as you think ask Hua Lin or anyone else that knows me on this board and I'm not as short as you think.5'4 is not that short.

But since you lose your temper and get too big for your Superman Underoos

I don't lose my temper much and I usually restrain myself.Ask anyone.

Hey Pong Lai,Woliveri,18elders did I lose my temper much in this thread or anyother?(with Playing Mantis as an exception

I think you deserve to get shredded by both of them (and I'm sure you would).....

Tell that to my kung fu brothers and see what their response is.Maybe Pong Lai will mop the floor with me but not PlayingMantis.I must admit that you tempted me to brag but I know that is frowned upon and unbecoming as a martial artist and as a human being.It took a whole lot of restraint to hold back.However if you think I'm lying ask my kung fu brothers on this board MiamiMantis,DannyfromMiami.Knh13[sp?],and others about who can take on who.

I'm not afraid to lose and I'm not afraid to admit it.It's not about ego with me.The more experince the better.However I won't be figthing Pong Lai.To tell the truth I have nothing agints him.

Maybe you should give up this whole Kung Fu thing Hua Lin I should have listened.:D
You would be surrounded by hundreds of people who are much bigger than you that could beat the living snot out of you Not a probblem.I love to sparr with people who are bigger and better than I am.I learn by losing.

Not sure what you're talking about. I study Ju Jitsu there's the problem right there.You have no idea what we are taliking about.You mistook another thread with this one.I suggest you read things clearly before you come to insult
anyone.To see how I usually am go here

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=5628 I will not come to to this tread anymore if anyone want's to talk open a new thread or e-mail me.

Hua Lin my sincerest apologies.For all the other's SaMantis,18elders,flem,Pong Lai,and all those who contributed to this thread and others I offer you my gratitude for your contributions and apologies for the ugly side of me that you had to see.

I will not come to this thread anymore.If you want to talk open a new thread.

Chao

flem

01-13-2002, 09:19 PM

northernmantis

your last post speaks well of you, i hope that you stick to them. as i said somewhere on kf online that this jerry springer crap wastes alot of time that could be spent learning from one another.

Tainan Mantis

01-13-2002, 09:40 PM

Northern Mantis,
I too learn better by losing.
I think that it was also a big inspiration for Wang Lang to lose.

China Village

01-14-2002, 10:51 AM

there's the problem right there.You have no idea what we are taliking about.You mistook another thread with this one.I suggest you read things clearly before you come to insult

True, Northern Mantis, I don't know Kung Fu. That is why I have been reading this thread (among others). So far though all I have learned is that some Praying Mantis practitioners talk $hit and then back out (at least that's what I've learned from you in this thread).

Thanks for the lesson.

-CV

P.S. - You're right, 5'4" isn't that short. Another inch taller, and you'll be able to ride the tea cups at Disney Land....... Oh, and
I did talk to your classmates. Pappa Smurf and Brainy Smurf said you we're pretty tough, but Lady Smurf said you were a wuss. However, they all did agree that you were incredibly tall.

flem

01-14-2002, 11:19 AM

jut sow alias china village

you see it just doesn't add up. you're a jujitsu practitioner trying to learn from a kung fu forum. shouldn't you atleast call yourself japan village, brazilian village, etc. also, did you learn your jujitsu online as well???

Hua Lin Laoshi

01-14-2002, 12:00 PM

China Village is not Jut Sow from previous posts. While Jut Sow said some negative things about Wah Lum and some of the people at the Temple he didn't insult the general forum like Playing Mantis and China Village.

This thread has degenerated into childish insults and should be left to the children (Playing Mantis and China Village). Let's get other threads started to discuss techniques and such.

China Village

01-15-2002, 07:42 AM

Flem
To Answer your questions I'm going to have to go on kind of a rant, but you wanted to know so here goes. I've been studying Ju Jitsu for a long portion of my life (about 13 years). It has been challenging, but I think it is time to move on and learn something new and different. That's why I've been looking in these forums - to see if I can find information on which style of Kung Fu I might want to try. I've looked through many threads in the Northern and Southern sections. I stumbled upon this thread and saw all you guys bickering about who taught who what, and where it all came from. I thought it was kind of interesting (and funny). Northern Mantis was right when he said I don't know anything about what is going on here. In other words, I only know that people from one style seem real butt hurt that people from another style are asking questions about their technique and history. It seems to me though that Northern Mantis (among others) were taking insults out of simple questions. I found it really funny that Northern Mantis was issuing all of these challenges, boasting about his 4 and 1/2 years of experience and 124 pounds of "pure muscle". I also found it funny that he kept taking his challenges back or "re-routing" them to other more experienced fighters. I had alot of respect for Hau Lin on this thread (because he was giving answers not insults) until he started defending Northern Mantis and his "hot Columbian blood". Don't you guys find it funny that somebody with 4 and 1/2 years experience thinks so highly of himself as to challenge people who he has no idea of their skill or experience. (More balls than brains I guess). So I created this logon to take a few cheap shots at him. Why? because I knew he would respond. Personally I think it's kind of funny. Sorry everybody, I did not mean to ruin this thread for you (although you guys seem to have ruined it for yourselves long before me or Playing Mantis got here). I've ignored all of the subtle insults you guys have thrown at me (except for Northern Mantis). You'll notice in my first post I did not even mention Northern Mantis at all. I just spoofed one of his challenges. If he'd have not read too deeply into it and just ignored it, it would not have gone any further than that. I found it really funny that he tried to counsel me, and let me know that I was making my coach lose face. Especially since that's what he's been doing this entire thread. Enough said though, I think I've gotten my point across (not that any of you guys would agree with me anyway). I wish you all the best, Even you Northern Mantis.

P.S. - The Name "China Villiage" is a resteraunt in Queens.