young sparrow

[EARTH DRAGON]

Can someone help me on this? I am a little confused on the techniques inconjunction with this 2 man form. I am sure I lost some valuable steps in translation becuse the way I have it worded in my notes does not flow! all help would be apprieciated greatly in correcting this set the way it should be performed thanks guys

O & D FIGHTING STANCE
O. RIGHT HOOK
D. STEP TO LEFT BOW , LONG ARM BLOCK , RIGHT PALM STRIKE TO
COLLAR BONE
O. LEFT SIDE BLOCK
D. RIGHT MANTIS GRAB , PULL LEFT ARM , RIGHT PALM STRIKE TO RIGHT
SHOULDER , CROSS LEFT ARM PUSHING DOWN , RIGHT HOOK LOW
O. RIGHT BACK FIST TO BLOCK LOW HOOK
D. RIGHT HOOK
O. RIGHT PALM STRIKE , PUSH , TRADE POSITIONS , PUSH LEFT ARM DOWN
RIGHT LOW HOOK
D. LEFT BLOCK , RIGHT BACKFIST
O. RIGHT HOOK
D. LEFT BLOCK , RIGHT PALM STRIKE
O. BLOCKS , PUSH , TRADE POSITIONS , BACKFIST
D. LEFT DOWN BLOCK , RIGHT HOOK
O. LONG ARM BLOCK , DOUBLE MANTIS GRAB ROOT , CIRCLE INTO
STRAIGHT PUNCH
D. LEFT BLOCK , TURN BODY , RIGHT ELBOW STRIKE , RIGHT BACKFIST ,
STEP TO LEFT BOW AND PUNCH
O & D FIGHTING STANCE
O. RIGHT HOOK
D. STEP TO LEFT BOW , LONG ARM BLOCK , RIGHT PALM STRIKE TO
COLLAR BONE
O. LEFT SIDE BLOCK
D. RIGHT MANTIS GRAB , PULL LEFT ARM , RIGHT PALM STRIKE TO RIGHT
SHOULDER , CROSS LEFT ARM PUSHING DOWN , RIGHT HOOK LOW
O. RIGHT BACK FIST TO BLOCK LOW HOOK
D. RIGHT HOOK
O. RIGHT PALM STRIKE , PUSH , TRADE POSITIONS , PUSH LEFT ARM DOWN
RIGHT LOW HOOK
D. LEFT BLOCK , RIGHT BACKFIST
O. RIGHT HOOK
D. LEFT BLOCK , RIGHT PALM STRIKE
O. BLOCKS , PUSH , TRADE POSITIONS , BACKFIST
D. LEFT DOWN BLOCK , RIGHT HOOK
O. LONG ARM BLOCK , DOUBLE MANTIS GRAB ROOT , CIRCLE INTO
STRAIGHT PUNCH
D. LEFT BLOCK , TURN BODY , RIGHT ELBOW STRIKE , RIGHT BACKFIST ,
STEP TO LEFT BOW AND PUNCH

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[Tainan Mantis]

Earth Dragon,
I thought that we were talking about the same form but don't recognize a singal movement in your form as relating to mine.

Although every version I've seen is different but there are certain techniques common to every version.

In sec. 1:
-Figure ten kick
-Hsuan Feng Tuei- a jump kick where you spin 360 but not the Tae Kwon Do type.

sec. 2:
-move with the wind to sweep the leaves

sec.3:
-360 sweep kick

If your form doesn't have these then we are talking about a different form.

In your manuscript which person is doing the original form?

Although I don't recognize the moves as the form I know but I can almost understand what you wrote. That is pretty good for not knowing the form. What is the section that you feel doesn't flow well?

2 points come to mind:
1-You don't have a translation of the moves from Chinese. It usually sounds better when you do.
2-You mention what the strikes are for. EG strike collar bone.

In Chinese manuscripts of 2 man forms this isn.t usually done. Instead a description of the hand shape or strike will do.

For example here is the beginning of Hsiao Fan Che

FORM-hold elbows
PARTNER-hold elbows, left front stance, straight punch

F-button stance, left feng grab right hook punch

P-left bu punch

F-left di chien block, step forward pi punch

etc.
This is usually, with some exceptions, how I've seen 2 man forms written in Chinese.

[EARTH DRAGON]

I was hoping you would answer this I highly doubted anyone else has even hear of it. My teacher has it written in chinese but seeing as how I cant read it well enough a lot must have been lost. My shrfu showed us only once and said practice till you get it right. it has been quite some time since I played around with this form and last night it didnt flow very well at all. As far as the collar bone target i,e it is just where you are striking to to help your partner know when and where to block , I am not sure as you said the way it is written but alot of times I add things to help me remember the exact technique or movement. I was wondering how much different your version is and if you would be willing to share it through email? As I said before this is the only 2 man form I know and would like to be able to teach it to my students. You were talking about hsiao fan chi being a 2 man form? I only know it as a single person form our 2nd set called small rolling wheel we also have da fan chi 4th set big rolling wheel but again this is not a 2 person form please help

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[Nutt'nhunny]

Sifu, I love you to death, but this is pathetic. Your a sifu trying to learn a set you barely know over the internet. Why don't you just call up one of your kung fu brothers. Doesn't Sifu Cimino live in your same town? I saw it on the web site. If your both in the federation, why don't you just walk down the street and ask him?

[EARTH DRAGON]

I wish it was that easymy freind! But the truth is he only taught it to a few of us in San fransisco on a sunday when I lived at the school and I am the only one left. The other 3 people that learned the set have quit the federation and there is no way to get in touch with them. The reason I didnt pay much attention to the set when master shyun showed us once (other than jotting down some notes) is it is not in the cirriculum that we teach and with so much IN the cirriculum I figured I would spend my time learing what is required. But now I wish I had more 2 person forms to play with and so far tainan mantis is the only source of real mantis that I can rely on for he is extremly knowledgable in his art as well as other branches of mantis.
As for cimeno he has only been in the system for 3 years and doesnt know that much.
P.S you still havent told me who you are and its killing me cause you speak of me like we were freinds so please the suspense is to much to bear who are you?

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[Tainan Mantis]

One thing I have learned from my Shr-fu is to never stop trying to learn something new. He has been practicing for around 40 years and yet the other day I saw him and he was all excited about finding a monkey stylist who had retired in the mountains.

Last year it was a cavity strikes expert.

Before that it was a Tong Bei master.

When I first met him he was flying to Hong Kong at every opportunity to learn Taiji PM.

Even my grand teacher, Li Hong Jie, flew to Hong Kong to meet the GM. Alas, he was too late.

Master Li also encouraged my Shr-fu to seek out Jiang Hsiag San in order to learn 6 Harmony PM.

Other masters, such as Su Yu Zhang, corrosponded with Huang Han Hsun, the Seven Star master of Hong Kong.

Adam Hsu wrote in the forward to Su's Beng Bu how impressed he was with Su's collection of PM manuscripts.

I have done private exchanges with more than a few students and teachers just because I write on KFO.

How lucky we are that we can converse on the internet faster than the teachers of old could in order to share knowledge and e-mail info or manuscripts.

It is sad when someone looks at a method of knowledge exchange as a bad idea.

[Tainan Mantis]

1. Is this form also done as a solo exercise?
2. If so, who in the 2 man is doing the solo side? D or O?
3. Are any techniques I mentioned from sec. 1-3 in the form?

I believe the Su Yu Zhang branch may know this 2 man as I have heard it is done in Taipei, although have never seen how they do it.

If your solo form was exactly the same as mine I might be able to describe some parts of the 2 man. But as I can't recognize a single move from your manuscript I think it must be hopeless.

On the bright side, there is a published book with the 2 man for Seven Hands. It is most likely the same as your version.

I have seen the 8 step Hsiao Fan Che and Da Fan Che. Very different from 7 Star. But all the PM moves are still arranged in a logical way that makes performing the solo as a 2 man a snap.

That is one of the things I like about PM. That all the solo forms are arranged in a logical way so that they can be done as a 2 man set.

[18elders]

My shr-fu is Tainan Mantis's kung fu brother, he lived in Taiwan for almost 10 years and relocated back to Florida.
I agree with you about Tainan's knowledge and my Shr-fu's. You can try calling my shr-fu and make a trip down to Florida to train. Not too sure about the 2 person stuff though as i know that is what really distinguishes out style from others is Master Shr's knowledge of 2 person forms and drills and applications, so not sure if they want to give it out to other people.
I'll ask him about it.

Hey Tainan, what did you think of Master Jang's forms on the video?

[Tainan Mantis]

Good Points:
-Dzai Yao 2 man form is interesting
-Wah Lum version of Beng Bu is interesting. I didn't recognize it as Beng Bu the first time I saw it.

Bad points:
Zhang Bing Do's version of Dzai Yao doesn't follow his grand teacher Li Kun Shan's manuscript. He left out a significant chunk in the beginning.
So I'm worried, is this a further watering down and modification of the forms?

Later I'll make a compilation tape of PM, I'll put you and John on the list.

[Nutt'nhunny]

Isn't that what Sifu Camps are for? That and new material? I talked to Sifu Cimino after he got back from the last one. He said that you didn't go, but wouldn't tell me anymore about it. Sifu, do you still learn from Master Sun?

[EARTH DRAGON]

thank you for the invite and advice but I feel like I would be intruding or pushing my luck by asking to be priveledged to obtain knowledge from someone with whom I dont know. I am sure my shrfu would also be displeased to find out that I graciuosly offered his kindness without his consent, but thank you anyways you are very generous and possible when I am in florida I would stop by and say hi as I do with my freind chan pui and talk and bring a small gift. Last time I brought some real maple syrup from up north and he loved it! So possibly I will ask for his address when the time comes but thanks again

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[EARTH DRAGON]

The young sparrow set as far as I know it is a 2 man form only, and the only 2 man form that I have seen master shyun show. I do not recongnize or know what a figure 10 kick is, but we do have a tornado kick which you call Hsuan Feng Tuei I think that is the same. Also we have a low sweep like360 degree sweep kick like as shown in our 3rd set LIPI (powercut)
As far as D and O..... D stands for defender (yourself) and O for opponent so I would gather that if it can be done solo it would be D's play that would go alone however I do not know how?
I would love to get copy of chi sao (7 hands) book that you said has been published, however is it in taiwan in chinese or is it available in the US and where? PS you said this...
Later I'll make a compilation tape of PM, I'll put you and John on the list. can that also include me? and what where and when? ha ha please get to tapin'we cant wait

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[EARTH DRAGON]

you still havent told me who you are? so please excuse me for not answering you and the questions that you ask until I know who you are thanx again and please answer

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[Nutt'nhunny]

Sifu, I want to tell you who I am, but I can't. I'm afraid you'll be mad at me. I like you very much, you've been a great teacher and I like the system. Its just that I feel that I will only be able to go so far at your school. Please don't take that the wrong way. Your very very good, its just a lot of little things. Like on the main site, it never mentions you at a Sifu camp? Is your learning cut off for some reason? Your name isn't on the list of schools. If I make it to gold level 5, will I even be able to test to become a Sifu? You know a lot of stuff, Its just that I want to be one of those great masters you read about, and I think I'll need higher education for that. Again you have been great for me, which is why I can't tell you who I am, please don't take it the wrong way,

Your student,

x

If my fears are ungrounded, just let me know and I'll be back at your school full force bringing in friends and doing everyhing I can to become a sifu.

[Tainan Mantis]

Earth Dragon,
I'm pretty sure that we are talking about different forms. i hope to see what yours looks like. As both of our Lipi and 7 hands forms are probably the same, are there any of the same moves?

Figure 10 kick- shr dz tuei. So named becuase of a slight resemblence to a Chinese # 10.
EG. A simultaneus right toe kick and left straight punch.

My lipi has two 180 sweeps. Did you make a mistake when you said lipi has a 360?

7 Hands, only in Chinese and only in Taiwan.

Right now I'm working on my 2nd video. It is the Eagle Claw form ba bu lien huan. It will include the 1 man and 2 man. I haven't started making the compilation tape, although I'm collecting materials. So, you wouldn't want to hold your breath.

The purpose of these tapes is for my students to remember the forms and also to make a lasting record of kung fu as it was in the beginning of the 21st century.
Don't you wish you could get your hands on Wang Lang's hand written manuscript?
Sorry, you can't. With each generation the kung fu changes.

Huang Han Hsun of Hong Kong 7 Star did his students a great service in publishing all the forms.
Although I'm no Huang but I think future generations will appreciate seeing past kung fu that I video.

Also I've just gotten permission from my Shr-fu to re-publish his lan jie book. This is the secret door version full of Zhang De Kuei doing the form. I'll also want to have it translated into English at some point.

Of course when these things become available I'll do my best to let everyone know about them.

[EARTH DRAGON]

It is a shame that you feel like you cant tell me who you are! I am not and never would be mad at you for trying to learn as much as you can even if you have to learn from someone other than me! I say this becuse I did the same thing with my shrfu DEAN. He taught me a lot but I wanted more so I moved to San Fransico to live with master Shyun. For the simple fact that I wanted to become ranked in the system and wanted better training than my shrfu had the time for.
The only shrfu's that are allowed to attend shrfu camp is the state representitive, which I lost when I closed my amherst location. Since then I have reopened on Elmwood ave, and steve creel the web creator has quit and the 8step.com site is in dire need of updating. Some of the schools listed are'nt even opened anymore and some other ones have, but It has not been updated for quite some time. Yes Master shyun is still my shrfu and always will be, so you see I wont be mad at you at all so I dot know why you would be afraid to tell me! If anything I would be happy that you learned from me and you still are in the system. I wish you luck in your training and remember it is a long road to gold 5!

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[EARTH DRAGON]

You are correct about 2 180 sweeps as opposed to 360 here are the movements of LIPI

MANTIS STANCE

LEFT DOWN BLOCK , STEP TO RIGHT BOW , RIGHT STRAIGHT FIST

TURN TO RIGHT BOW , RIGHT GROIN STRIKE

RIGHT LOW BLOCK , PUNCH LEFT , PUNCH RIGHT

STEALING HANDS RIGHT POWERCUT

STEP TO RIGHT BOW , RIGHT BACKFIST

TURN TO LEFT BOW, LEFT BACKFIST

STEP RIGHT , POWERCUT

STOMP , RIGHT STRAIGHT FIST

STEALING HANDS , SIDE STEP TO UPPER-POWERCUT

TAI CHI HI –LOW BLOCK

DROP SHIN

CROSS OVER , STEALING HANDS , OVERELBOW

TURN TO RIGHT BOW , RIGHT BACKFIST

TURN TO LEFT BOW , LEFT BACKFIST

STEP RIGHT , POWERCUT

DOUBLE OPEN BLOCK , BOX EARS , PULL , FRONT KICK

UPPERCUT PHENOIX EYE

STEALING HANDS , OVER ELBOW

RIGHT GROIN STRIKE , RIGHT BACKFIST, RIGHT STRAIGHT FIST

RIGHT CHOPPING HANDS , X-LEG , GROIN STRIKE

STEALING HANDS , ELBOW STRIKE

STEP TO RIGHT BOW , PUSH ELBOW

RIGHT EYE ATTACK , STEALING HANDS , HOOK FIST

TURN LEFT , LOW SWEEP , LOW SWEEP

RIGHT BACKFIST , DOUBLE MANTIS GRAB , MANTIS KICK

PROTECT HANDS , MANTIS STANCE

does this resemble yours?
As far as the videos, are you taping them for yourself or for sale to others? I would love to purchase them!
I wish I could get my hands on Wei xiao tung's manuscripts let alone wong long's!!!!!!LOL
I wish you luck in your ability to get lost knowledge out to the publics eye! I think that if the chinese did not hold their knowledge so secret for so many years it would help in understanding the greatness of the history in kung fu, for so many things have been lost do to selfishness, greed and secretcy!

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[Tainan Mantis]

I can recognize this as the form I know.

Tai Chi block- I believe this is a Hsing Yi block. In the book it is called ride the tiger.

Pheonix eye- In the book it is called pu mien palm. The name and technique form Hsing Yi.

Before the 2 sweeps is called pu chan hands. Throwing the cicada hands.

After the sweeps 3 moves are missing. Did you forget to write it?

1.Tai mountain presses the nail (left and right power cuts)
2.to the face(left) straight punch
3.add a (right) punch

[Nutt'nhunny]

I E-mailed a couple of sifus and one of them E-mailed me back.

In responce to your questions:
All sifu's of the 8step system are now invited to the sifu camps, not
just the state representives. This has been federation policy for a
couple of years now.
Also, in response to your question about the updated 8step.com site,
while it is true that we are very badly in need of an update, the school
page is current and correct to our knowledge. If there are any
descrepancies please feel free to contact me.

thank you,

Sifu


Now you can go to the medical and Sifu camps, you can get all the gaps filled in. Best yet, I have a direct, unkinked link to the system. I've been traveling so I'll need to save up some cash, I want to put a downpayment on the sifu program. I'll be in a couple of months. I'm trying to get my friend to start with me. Will you cut us a deal if we do it together? Please let me know, Your student,

Nutt'nhunny

[Kagerou]

Dear Nutt'nhunny,
I don't know what Mikael's (Haley)been telling you but, he hasn't been in the federation for some time now. Thats why he hasn't been learning anything new lately. If he was, he wouldn't be asking about the Young Sparrow Set on the forum. He made me laugh when he said that only 3 people know the set. Even the kids in our class know that set. I think you should switch over to Cimino's school. ;)

Kagerou

[Nutt'nhunny]

Listen Up Kangaroo or whatever your name is, I am loyal to my Sifu. I just want to make sure that I have room to spread my wings when the time comes. If I can learn everything, become a Sifu and continue my learning, I have no reason to change schools. It would be really cool if I could do the Sifu program under both of them. Then I could learn more often and apprentice more, learn from two different perspectives. But we'll have to see how it all goes.

[EARTH DRAGON]

Not really sure who you are or how you know me seeing that you are from some city from japan.... but it is true I have not been in the federation for a couple of years now, but thats becuse I closed my amherst location and It took a while to find a new one. And with personal conflicts between me and other people who have quit or been thrown out of the system due to their attitudes towards the ACMAF. But please dont advise people to go to another school based on your limited knowledge of me, besides mike cimeno doesnt have a school! he teaches 2 morning classes at the gym he uses at the jewish center! so I would not call that a official school and his moring classes are hard to attend if you have a job.
Plus the real young sparrow only 3 people know. What ever the kids in your class know is not the real 2 man set. I have seen it taught to the kids in San fransisco and I can assure you master shyun has not shown the real set to people other than dean and robert and danny all of who you dont even know so please dont laugh at something your not aware of.. thank you

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[Nutt'nhunny]

Sifu, What if those kids he's talking about ARE doing the set your asking about? I mean, you have been out of the federation for a while. Can you still learn from Master Sun if your not affiliated with the federation? Maybe you could take a road trip to Kogeruou's kids class to learn the set. It really makes me think. I think I will check out Sifu Cimino's school. He has weird times, but I have wasted years of my life learning such styles as hsing I, shuai chiao and bits of eagle claw, but after 3-5 years you will hit a glass ceiling without a grandmaster to continue learning from. I'm sick of repeating past mistakes. As far as I'm concerned, you can have a school that looks like a chinese restaurant with all the bells and whistles, but without that connection to a master, it doesn't matter. Sorry Sifu, but I just can't afford to spend years with you only to learn that I can't go any ****her. Best of luck,

honeysmacks

[EARTH DRAGON]

to be brutaly honest with you I dont think that you trained with me at all. My highest ranking student is andrew who has spent 4 years with me and is in the sliver level, other than him no one has reached higher than red sash which is 4 away from beginner. So you see by saying that you spent 3-5 years learning I seriously doubt you took the time to learn anything worth while. I have been a shrfu for 6 years and trained mantis for 5 before that, mike was a yellow sash when master shyun came to my school and did a seminar in 1998. So you can base your judgment accrodingly. I really dont care who you train with as long as you train but I can garantee you will not learn more from anybody else. I have 11 years of knowledge to teach so unless you plan on spending 12 years with someone you will not learn anything new.
PS the kids young sparrow set I used to teach in the childerns class in San Fransisco and I can assure you it is not the same 2 man form that shfu showed only a couple of us behind closed doors on a sunday in the old HQ school on noriega st. but thanks for your concern. Let me know how you like studying with mike! he seems like a nice guy.

http://www.kungfuUSA.net