Questions: Short versions of Taiji

[sanjuro_ronin]

I have seen some short versions of Yang and Chen Taiji and I was wondering what benefits they may have and what people though of them.

[kfson]

Shorter versions of Chen when lacking interior space. Otherwise the continuous backing up and repositioning can break the flow and concentration.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yang short:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AoAa-xc6WEk

Chen short:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAXXjasSkU0

[kfson]

Chen 38 slow form:
http://www.vidoemo.com/yvideo.php?chen-style-taiji-quan-38-form-e38=&i=NkU2WFB3cWuRpUmtRM1E

[mooyingmantis]

I think they are easier to teach for very short term classes designed to promote interest in the art. For example, at a health spa, gym or community canter. After the people are "hooked" bring them into a class where a longer version is taught.
Yang 10 is a good start before introducing Yang 24 or Yang 108.

Richard

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think they are easier to teach for very short term classes designed to promote interest in the art. For example, at a health spa, gym or community canter. After the people are "hooked" bring them into a class where a longer version is taught.
Yang 10 is a good start before introducing Yang 24 or Yang 108.

Richard

So you find that have no or minimal benefits?

[Xiao3 Meng4]

This is the story I heard on Yang's short form.

The PRC asked doctors in the 50s: "what is the best exercise to promote for public health?" Pretty much everyone replied "Tai Ji." The PRC said, "Tai Ji takes too long to learn and do. What else do you suggest?" Again, everyone said "Tai Ji." The government then said "Fine, but we need a version of Tai Ji which is easy to learn, takes little time to do, and offers as many benefits of classical Tai Ji as possible." So in 1957 a bunch of masters, including Li Tian Ji, got together and developed the shortened "Yang" style Tai Ji form (really a combination of Yang, Sun and Wu,) which is the "standard" form taught in PRC high schools. It's relatively easy to learn, difficult to master, takes 5 minutes to do in its entirety, and today it is the most popular form of Tai Ji in the world. usually, no fighting aspects are taught - it was developed for health first and foremost.

The group that developed the 24 form is the same group that developed the early wushu competition forms, hence the shortened Chen and whatnot.

BTW, I have never seen the Yang version you posted before.

[kfson]

Some instructors have a 12-18 move form that works the essential or "Golden" movements.

Some very short forms are devoid of the more exerting movements.
The medium length forms are usually designed to be devoid of repetition but lack in some different relationships that duplicity can give.

[sanjuro_ronin]

This is the story I heard on Yang's short form.

The PRC asked doctors in the 50s: "what is the best exercise to promote for public health?" Pretty much everyone replied "Tai Ji." The PRC said, "Tai Ji takes too long to learn and do. What else do you suggest? Again, everyone said "Tai Ji." The government then said "Fine, but we need a version of Tai Ji which is easy to learn, takes little time to do, and offers as many benefits of classical Tai Ji as possible." So in 1957 a bunch of masters, including Li Tian Ji, got together and developed the shortened "Yang" style Tai Ji form (really a combination of Yang, Sun and Wu,) which is the "standard" form taught in PRC high schools. It's relatively easy to learn, difficult to master, takes 5 minutes to do in its entirety, and today it is the most popular form of Tai Ji in the world. usually, no fighting aspects are taught - it was developed for health first and foremost.

The group that developed the 24 form is the same group that developed the early wushu competition forms, hence the shortened Chen and whatnot.

Interesting, thanks.

[taai gihk yahn]

So you find that have no or minimal benefits?

from one perspective, it's no better or worse than any intentioned, movement/breath coordinated activity that emphasizes sustained unilateral weightbearing, organization around / orientation to midline; u could just as well do any of the moves in pretty much any order for as long or as little time as u wanted to and would derive benefit accordingly

that's one perspective; there is, of course, another...;)

from a Taoist alchemical viewpoint, the "classical" form (whatever one might construe that to be, of course) is a "formula" for internal longevity / immortality practice, centering on the generation of the "dan", the Elixir / Pill; as such, to change the macro-structure of the form is to nullify this aspect of the form; so, for example, in the opening road of the Yang form, there traditionally are 5 "brush knees"; according to this interpretation, each one represents one of the Five Phases, and therefore each one is done slightly differently, with the supposed effect on each corresponding organ (and yes, the order can be changed depending on what one wishes to do); and the moves before the brush knees" lay the ground for this process, while the moves after complete it;

of course, one need not subscribe to this belief system to gain benefit from the form;

personally though, it's easier to learn qigong to get the same effects...

[sanjuro_ronin]

from one perspective, it's no better or worse than any intentioned, movement/breath coordinated activity that emphasizes sustained unilateral weightbearing, organization around / orientation to midline; u could just as well do any of the moves in pretty much any order for as long or as little time as u wanted to and would derive benefit accordingly

that's one perspective; there is, of course, another...;)

from a Taoist alchemical viewpoint, the "classical" form (whatever one might construe that to be, of course) is a "formula" for internal longevity / immortality practice, centering on the generation of the "dan", the Elixir / Pill; as such, to change the macro-structure of the form is to nullify this aspect of the form; so, for example, in the opening road of the Yang form, there traditionally are 5 "brush knees"; according to this interpretation, each one represents one of the Five Phases, and therefore each one is done slightly differently, with the supposed effect on each corresponding organ (and yes, the order can be changed depending on what one wishes to do); and the moves before the brush knees" lay the ground for this process, while the moves after complete it;

of course, one need not subscribe to this belief system to gain benefit from the form;

personally though, it's easier to learn qigong to get the same effects...

Which qigong would you suggest?

[Skip J.]

This is the story I heard on Yang's short form.

The PRC asked doctors in the 50s: "what is the best exercise to promote for public health?" Pretty much everyone replied "Tai Ji." The PRC said, "Tai Ji takes too long to learn and do. What else do you suggest?" Again, everyone said "Tai Ji." The government then said "Fine, but we need a version of Tai Ji which is easy to learn, takes little time to do, and offers as many benefits of classical Tai Ji as possible." So in 1957 a bunch of masters, including Li Tian Ji, got together and developed the shortened "Yang" style Tai Ji form (really a combination of Yang, Sun and Wu,) which is the "standard" form taught in PRC high schools. It's relatively easy to learn, difficult to master, takes 5 minutes to do in its entirety, and today it is the most popular form of Tai Ji in the world. usually, no fighting aspects are taught - it was developed for health first and foremost.

The group that developed the 24 form is the same group that developed the early wushu competition forms, hence the shortened Chen and whatnot.

A few years back the PRC had all five of the major style Grandmasters develop a short 16 movement form for their own style called "take a break taiji" for busy folks in China. Same reasons, etc..... not much changing there... The idea is a 5 minute workout a day is better than nothing. Due to lack of repetition described above and more advanced movements than the 24, it's not really a beginner's form.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

If you're not needing to add any MA training then yeah, why not offer a Qigong?

Ba Duan Jin is nice and simple. Wild Goose has some good stuff too but it's quite long, complex and multi-leveled.

TGY, interesting about the 5 element connection to the form. The Yang I know uses 3 repetitions instead of 5; on the metaphysical side, it's linked to the 3 treasures/levels/harmonies etc. On the tongue in cheek side, my instructor used to say "any move repeated more than 3 times is pure specubation." ;)

[Xiao3 Meng4]

A few years back the PRC had all five of the major style Grandmasters develop a short 16 movement form for their own style called "take a break taiji" for busy folks in China. Same reasons, etc..... not much changing there... The idea is a 5 minute workout a day is better than nothing. Due to lack of repetition described above and more advanced movements than the 24, it's not really a beginner's form.

New packaging, same great taste! Maybe more people will buy it.

With the 24 form, it's very easy to just repeat the whole form unceasingly until you're satisfied. Taking 5 minutes out of breakfast lunch and dinner breaks to practice doesn't negatively impact your day or your breaks (unless you only have under 10 minutes I guess.)

[taai gihk yahn]

Which qigong would you suggest?

depends what u r trying to accomplish...

[taai gihk yahn]

TGY, interesting about the 5 element connection to the form. The Yang I know uses 3 repetitions instead of 5; on the metaphysical side, it's linked to the 3 treasures/levels/harmonies etc.
ok; I guess for us the the 3 levels would be the 3 chapters of the form (Earth, Man, Heaven)


On the tongue in cheek side, my instructor used to say "any move repeated more than 3 times is pure specubation." ;)
we all know that the sign of true Immortality is to be able to specubate without limit (just look at Scott - he's been around since before, well, anything!)

[Xiao3 Meng4]

ok; I guess for us the the 3 levels would be the 3 chapters of the form (Earth, Man, Heaven)

K

Does "Grasp the sparrow's tail" have a Wu Xing breakdown? I could see it being possible...



we all know that the sign of true Immortality is to be able to specubate without limit (just look at Scott - he's been around since before, well, anything!)

lol! :D

[Bob Ashmore]

I heard a wonderful quote at the Symposium, but I have no recollection who said it....
Nope, just not coming to me.
The way I remember it is this: "Short forms are for when you are short on time"
I liked that.
At the Symposium we learned the five 16 Posture Hand forms from the five families: Chen, Yang, Wu/Hoa, Wu and Sun. We learned these directly from the GM's themselves.
I like the short forms, I practice the Yang, Wu/Hoa and Wu forms nearly every day (I did not retain the Chen and Sun short forms, too much information too fast and I'd never studied either of those styles before the Symposium. Wu/Hoa is similar enough to the Yang and Wu forms I train that I was able to pick it up quickly and retain it).
Where/when do I use these forms?
In my companies rest room.
Seriously.
When I go in for a quick "break", I lock the door behind me and do one of these three short forms. It only takes me a few minutes and I feel totally refreshed when I come out.
There is plenty of room for these short forms in your average rest room, while even a single section of any of the long forms would have you bumping into walls in no time.
Another good place to do these short forms in on the landing of any "fire escape" rated stairwell, which is what you will find in most commercial buildings.
All three of these forms can be done with room to spare on a landing like that, they are wide and flat so they work out perfectly.

I do these forms several times a day and I find great benefit from them. They clear the mind, move the body and keep the spirit up throughout the day.

As I recall from the Symposium, more than one of the GM's stated that these forms were created so that they could be taught in a typical college semester, allowing them to be taught to students in a short time while still retaining the principles and spirit of the style of TCC from which they were created. Also that these forms would be good for people short on time and space to do during the day as I have mentioned I use them above (that's where I got the idea, actually). Also good for seniors, as the short forms do not have any of the more strenuous aspects from the art.
If there were other reasons why they were created, I did not hear anyone state that at the Symposium.

Bob

[sanjuro_ronin]

depends what u r trying to accomplish...

The perverted side of me says YANG POWER !!!

But it's for the wife, relaxation and womens stuff, know what I mean?

[taai gihk yahn]

The perverted side of me says YANG POWER !!!

But it's for the wife, relaxation and womens stuff, know what I mean?

have her go to this - I promise you, it's worth it;
http://www.kripalu.org/program/view/EFP-101/empowering_the_feminine_principle_taiyin_qigong_fo r

(it's my sifu, btw)

[sanjuro_ronin]

have her go to this - I promise you, it's worth it;
http://www.kripalu.org/program/view/EFP-101/empowering_the_feminine_principle_taiyin_qigong_fo r

(it's my sifu, btw)

Dude, we are in Toronto, remember?

[taai gihk yahn]

Dude, we are in Toronto, remember?

yes, I know; it's a one-time weekend retreat; it could help her get a sense of what the good stuff is like, so if she goes looking around for something near home, she'll know what to look for qualitatively

OTOH, if u have some ideas of what's local to you, send me a link, I can give you some input if you like

[sanjuro_ronin]

yes, I know; it's a one-time weekend retreat; it could help her get a sense of what the good stuff is like, so if she goes looking around for something near home, she'll know what to look for qualitatively

OTOH, if u have some ideas of what's local to you, send me a link, I can give you some input if you like

Cool, I will let you know, thanks for the help Chris, you knucklehead !
:D

[taai gihk yahn]

Cool, I will let you know, thanks for the help Chris, you knucklehead !
:D
that's Mr. Glorified Knucklehead to you; only HW108 get's to refer to me in a more familiar sense now that he and I have had a detente of sorts...

[sanjuro_ronin]

that's Mr. Glorified Knucklehead to you; only HW108 get's to refer to me in a more familiar sense now that he and I have had a detente of sorts...

Traitor !!:mad:

[taai gihk yahn]

Traitor !!:mad:

he plied me with promises of secret de-knuckleheading training, what else could I do?;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

he plied me with promises of secret de-knuckleheading training, what else could I do?;)

Don't forget to take a shower after.

[Skip J.]

At the Symposium we learned the five 16 Posture Hand forms from the five families: Chen, Yang, Wu/Hoa, Wu and Sun. We learned these directly from the GM's themselves. I like the short forms, I practice the Yang, Wu/Hoa and Wu forms nearly every day.Where/when do I use these forms?
In my companies rest room. Seriously.

When I go in for a quick "break", I lock the door behind me and do one of these three short forms. It only takes me a few minutes and I feel totally refreshed when I come out. There is plenty of room for these short forms in your average rest room, while even a single section of any of the long forms would have you bumping into walls in no time. Another good place to do these short forms in on the landing of any "fire escape" rated stairwell, which is what you will find in most commercial buildings. All three of these forms can be done with room to spare on a landing like that, they are wide and flat so they work out perfectly.

I do these forms several times a day and I find great benefit from them. They clear the mind, move the body and keep the spirit up throughout the day.and........would be good for people short on time and space to do during the day as I have mentioned I use them above (that's where I got the idea, actually). Also good for seniors, as the short forms do not have any of the more strenuous aspects from the art.Bob

So, you got to hear the Grandmasters talk about these take-a-break-taiji 16 forms...

[Bob Ashmore]

Skip,
Yes, each GM talked about how his particular short form was created before they began to teach them.

Bob

[bawang]

I have seen some short versions of Yang and Chen Taiji and I was wondering what benefits they may have and what people though of them.

teaching short forms instead of actual health adnd strength building excercises are good for ripping people off

[Skip J.]

teaching short forms instead of actual health adnd strength building excercises are good for ripping people off
Well, thats kinda hard to do when most of'em come down to the senior center and take classes for free.... they don't even have to pay to park... It's the instructor that feels ripped off... sorry... just my 2 cents worth...

[kuntao]

We start people off with an 8 move set. It has all the benefits of a short form that have already been mentioned and students can learn it quickly. So instead of spending a long time just learning choreography we can get to the internal principles of Tai Chi much sooner.

We find that this helps students gain a functional understanding of Tai Chi (both for health & self defense) much faster.


How you move is much more important than how many moves you know.



teaching short forms instead of actual health adnd strength building exercises are good for ripping people off

Teaching choreography instead of Tai Chi is good for ripping people off. Doesn't matter if it's long or short.

[bawang]

learning any kind of moves and techniques doesnt help u

u need to teach qigong and standing post

if u want ur students progress faster do standing post with weight vest holding medicine ball

then punch wit 25 pound dumbells in standnig post + hit sandbag lead qi to fists from dantian

do it for 2 years

[Skip J.]

learning any kind of moves and techniques doesnt help u

u need to teach qigong and standing post

if u want ur students progress faster do standing post with weight vest holding medicine ball

then punch wit 25 pound dumbells in standnig post + hit sandbag lead qi to fists from dantian

do it for 2 years
You must be talking about beginners in their 50's or younger, and in good physical condition to start with....

Not many taiji students that young and in good shape... a few - but not many....

[PQS]

I've just started Tai Chi and my teacher is just teaching the first five movements of the CMC form repeated a couple of times and that helps to understand the principles of pushing hands.
Regards
Peter

[Skip J.]

I've just started Tai Chi and my teacher is just teaching the first five movements of the CMC form repeated a couple of times and that helps to understand the principles of pushing hands.
Regards
Peter
Good to see you over here on the dark side Peter!

Coming from a combat background, you will fit into push hands well - once you shift into the basic taiji principles....

[mooyingmantis]

Skip,
Yes, each GM talked about how his particular short form was created before they began to teach them.

Bob

Bob,
Could you elaborate on this please?
How did they decide what to put in and what to leave out?
Were the short forms developed only for health benefits, or was self-defense taken into account?
Any pearls of wisdom that each Master dropped?

Thanks,
Richard

[Bob Ashmore]

Mooying,
I don't have much information beyond what I heard them say at the Symposium.
The most often asked question was if these were "simplified" forms, the answer was always, "easy forms, but not simplified".
I recall that most said that they were for health and for ease of teaching during a college semester.
What criteria they used to choose the forms and sequences...? I don't recall if that was brought up or not. I don't remember any specific discussions along those lines but I did not hear all the discussions as I was also working at the Symposium.

The one thing I recall the clearest relating to discussions over the short forms was from GM Yang Zhen Duo. During a panel discussion of Grand Masters with Scientists the question was raised over what was an ideal "short form" to teach someone who had limited time in which to learn.
GM Yang Zhen Duo held the opinion that only ONE form is necessary to teach someone both the health benefits and martial content rolled into one.
He then demonstrated this form for us. When it was asked why that one form and how it could be so beneficial for both health and martial he also demonstrated that as well.
For health aspects he spoke of the whole body movement, the integration of waist and hips and kua with upper body turning, chi and jin movement for internal aspects and how all of the thirteen energies were inherent in this one form.
He also used one of his disciples (Dave Barrett) to demonstrate how over all martialy applicable this one form was and how it included most of the martial aspects to be found in the entire traditional Yang family long form (hand).
It was an incredible eye opener. Well for me, at least. I'm sure a lot of the more accomplished people there knew this already.
The other GM's there agreed wholeheartedly that this single form was all that GM Yang Zhen Duo claimed it to be.
It's been my favorite form ever since the Symposium. I practice it all the time now with an entirely new insight into it's intricacies.

Bob

[PQS]

Good to see you over here on the dark side Peter!

Coming from a combat background, you will fit into push hands well - once you shift into the basic taiji principles....
Thanks I have been meaning to take up Tai Chi for years but have not had the time to train for more than 6 months before changing jobs so it has been good to find a good teacher who emphasises the Martial side. There aren't that many around here:(
Regards
Peter

[mawali]

Were the short forms developed only for health benefits, or was self-defense taken into account?
Thanks,
Richard

The short forms were mainly adapted for health but if one was taught the martial side then, sure, they would be applicable.

When you objectively examine a short form (4-6 minutes duration) taken from a long one (14-20min) they are essentially the same animal. The Yang style 88 (103/108), depending on how you count a posture, comes down to, when shortened, may be between 25-35 unique postures (never repeated). It is the repeated postures over the form duration that adds up to a "long form".

As long as you are physically active, incorporate the structure of the specific taijiquan form (jibengong and shenfa) then you are good to go!

[mooyingmantis]

Bob,
Thanks for sharing that story! Very insightful! :)
Richard

[Skip J.]

Thanks I have been meaning to take up Tai Chi for years but have not had the time to train for more than 6 months before changing jobs so it has been good to find a good teacher who emphasises the Martial side. There aren't that many around here:(
Regards
Peter
Hello Peter;

Yes, that is hard to do anywhere... congrats on your good fortune!

Train every chance you get.... you will be amazed at all of the small things in life that can be done in the Tai Chi manner every day.... especially walking any where you go, even just across the room.

For me, the absolute most difficult transition to make was letting the adrenalin surge go instead of stoking it to build the warrior spirit. Or, as as some folks my age over there would say, just..."let it be"...... After about 3 years I could move ahead beyond just the "empty form" but it sure did take me awhile...

[Skip J.]

Mooying,
I don't have much information beyond what I heard them say at the Symposium.
The most often asked question was if these were "simplified" forms, the answer was always, "easy forms, but not simplified".....When it was asked why that one form and how it could be so beneficial for both health and martial he also demonstrated that as well.
For health aspects he spoke of the whole body movement, the integration of waist and hips and kua with upper body turning, chi and jin movement for internal aspects and how all of the thirteen energies were inherent in this one form.
He also used one of his disciples (Dave Barrett) to demonstrate how over all martialy applicable this one form was and how it included most of the martial aspects to be found in the entire traditional Yang family long form (hand).
It was an incredible eye opener. Well for me, at least. I'm sure a lot of the more accomplished people there knew this already.
The other GM's there agreed wholeheartedly that this single form was all that GM Yang Zhen Duo claimed it to be.
It's been my favorite form ever since the Symposium. I practice it all the time now with an entirely new insight into it's intricacies.

Bob

What Bob said......

I can't speak about the other styles, but ours has 8 movements from the 24 and 8 more from intermediate forms; none of which were simplified, and none repeated, so all 16 are different from each other. It only takes about 3 minutes - but even an advanced guy can get a good workout from it.