which drills make you feel GREAT!?

[TenTigers]

I was reading the over 50 thread, and people are sharing how great Martial Arts makes them feel, and got to thinking about which drills and exercises really make me feel good.
Here's a few:

1. Wu-Shu line drills. Yeah, yeah. I'm a Hung Kuen guy, but I did have an opportunity to train a bit with Yu Shao-Wen, and he taught me the line drills, (as well as Kwai-Ding and Whip Chain) These drills stretch the body,legs and spine, increase flexiblity and really just opens everything up. I think they improve overall performance, no matter which style you do.

2. Tan-Tuie- like the line drills, the large open movements and deep stances opens up the body and channels, and improves overall structure.

3. makiwara- there is something about the total concentration, striving for perfection in each strike, coupled with impact training that just makes me feel good.

4. Tiet Sien Kuen-both a physical as well as mental pump.

5. nothing like the feeling you get after a few good rounds on the heavybag
so, what are yours?

[MasterKiller]

After an 8-set 3-round Tabata session, I feel awesome.

[cerebus]

The 8-postures training set from the Northern Shaolin/ Mantis I learned through a Korean lineage followed by the 6-kicks training set from that same curriculum.

I end up literally buzzing and pumped with energy, even though my legs are a bit shaky afterward. I try to do these every day without fail.

[sanjuro_ronin]

#2 Phillips Head.
:p

[sanjuro_ronin]

After an 8-set 3-round Tabata session, I feel awesome.

Those aren't Tabata's, they're HIIT's :p

[Drake]

#2 Phillips Head.
:p

Huhuhuhuhuhuhuh... you said "head"... huhuhuhhuhuhu...

[MasterKiller]

Those aren't Tabata's, they're HIIT's :p

I thought Tabatas were 20 seconds on/10 seconds off, or does it only qualify you do it for just 4 minutes?

[sanjuro_ronin]

I thought Tabatas were 20 seconds on/10 seconds off, or does it only qualify you do it for just 4 minutes?

Not to be anal retentive but Tabatas are HIGH Intensity HIIT !!
The 20:10 protocol is the same, but the intensity level is much higher, around the 120% Vo2 max.
Which basically means that IF you can do more then 1 set, you aren't doing Tabata's.
However, for the vast majority, they way you do it is, in my view, far better.

[Dragonzbane76]

3-3minute rounds on the mitts with partner who is pushing hard.

and sparring and rolling at a high intensity lvl with someone of equal intensity.

[MasterKiller]

Not to be anal retentive but Tabatas are HIGH Intensity HIIT !!
The 20:10 protocol is the same, but the intensity level is much higher, around the 120% Vo2 max.
Which basically means that IF you can do more then 1 set, you aren't doing Tabata's.
However, for the vast majority, they way you do it is, in my view, far better.

I see lots of variation for HIIT times, up to 1:30 minutes on, depending on the program.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I see lots of variation for HIIT times, up to 1:30 minutes on, depending on the program.

Boxing is the original HIIT :)

Tabata Method

A popular regimen based on a 1996 study[2] uses 20 seconds of ultra-intense exercise (at 170% of VO2max) followed by 10 seconds of rest, repeated continuously for 4 minutes (8 cycles). In the original study, athletes using this method trained 4 times per week, plus another day of steady-state training, and obtained gains similar to a group of athletes who did steady state (70% VO2max) training 5 times per week. The steady state group had a higher VO2max at the end (from 52 to 57 ml/kg/min), but the tabata group had started lower and gained more overall (from 48 to 55 ml/kg/min). Also, only the tabata group had gained anaerobic capacity benefits unlike the steady state group.

I stand corrected, it was 170% of the max :eek:

[Pork Chop]

believe it or not, i usually feel pretty good when i do a nice, slow paced workout of static stretches, 24-step competition taiji, some taiji walking, and a good run through of the ram muay.

problem is i don't really do workouts like this often enough; so focused on high intensity and calorie burning.

otherwise, the drills that make me feel the best are
16oz curls

http://www.harpoonbrewery.com/harpoon/Image/labels/beer_photos/ipa_b_g_200x367(1).jpg

[sanjuro_ronin]

A nice glass of milk is good too'
http://www.tmuscle.com/img/photos/2010/10-019-nutrition/05.jpg

[Hardwork108]

I was reading the over 50 thread, and people are sharing how great Martial Arts makes them feel, and got to thinking about which drills and exercises really make me feel good.
Here's a few:

1. Wu-Shu line drills. Yeah, yeah. I'm a Hung Kuen guy, but I did have an opportunity to train a bit with Yu Shao-Wen, and he taught me the line drills, (as well as Kwai-Ding and Whip Chain) These drills stretch the body,legs and spine, increase flexiblity and really just opens everything up. I think they improve overall performance, no matter which style you do.

2. Tan-Tuie- like the line drills, the large open movements and deep stances opens up the body and channels, and improves overall structure.

3. makiwara- there is something about the total concentration, striving for perfection in each strike, coupled with impact training that just makes me feel good.

4. Tiet Sien Kuen-both a physical as well as mental pump.

5. nothing like the feeling you get after a few good rounds on the heavybag
so, what are yours?

I love my Chow Gar Sarn Bo Jin. When done properly it makes me feel great on many levels.

Hitting the sand bowl (Iron Palm) with all the proper breathing and concentration (qigong) also had very positive effects on many levels and gives me a special "buzz".

There are more stuff but the above two are very special. :)

[uki]

i feel refreshed after doing some form and walking in some circles in the morning moonlight, which of course is after i do a brief juggle of the iron balls to get the blood racing in order to help keep me warm. :)

[kfson]

I use the Makita drill. It is quick, efficient, and easier on the hands and wrist... it really packs a punch. It will knock out any other drill.

[Drake]

Up up down down left right left right B A Start.

I do that and I'm invincible. :D

[David Jamieson]

down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out and release, or retain, depending. Repeat after 5 minutes or until painful dryness occurs.

:D

[kfson]

down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out down and in, up and out and release, or retain, depending. Repeat after 5 minutes or until painful dryness occurs.

:D

That looks like a 2 minute drill.

You better have some alternate drills to please the master.

[David Jamieson]

That looks like a 2 minute drill.

You better have some alternate drills to please the master.

sorry, no can do as I've already rolled over and gone to sleep.

Or I'm downstairs eating some cornflakes...

[jdhowland]

1. I like to fall, for some reason. I particularly like a TWC kicking drill in which we do a high front kick, then retract the leg and fall back onto the thigh in a splits position. Good dynamic stretching and the way the dorsal part of the foot slows the descent to make it safe is just cool. I experience much the same thing when falling correctly after being thrown. Solo breakfall drills are tedious but being thrown by a partner is a blast.

2. Any Choy Lei Fat set or section drilled repeatedly because of the amazing sense of flow in the system. Continuous movement without pause corrects balance and frees the mind from focusing on single techniqes. It encourages a more adaptive strategy.

3. TWC Lohon Kyuhn, repeated three times or more. An exhilarating workout.

4. Attentive walking: circling a room, taking one...maybe two steps per minute. The focus is on balance and the sensation of the steps. The movement is continuous--no pauses allowed. Not as easy as it looks. Works the brain, but it really improves proprioception and provides a good break from the habit of thinking about stuff. Usually thought of as a Chan practice, but I learned this from a Tibetan teacher of the Kagyu school. Hard work but really refreshing.

5. Hei gung/qigong. I've been working lately on "opening" my upper back which was relatively stuck after years of concentrating too much on mid- and low-spine. The feedback/awareness I'm starting to get is blissful.

[David Jamieson]

1. I like to fall, for some reason. I particularly like a TWC kicking drill in which we do a high front kick, then retract the leg and fall back onto the thigh in a splits position. Good dynamic stretching and the way the dorsal part of the foot slows the descent to make it safe is just cool. I experience much the same thing when falling correctly after being thrown. Solo breakfall drills are tedious but being thrown by a partner is a blast.

2. Any Choy Lei Fat set or section drilled repeatedly because of the amazing sense of flow in the system. Continuous movement without pause corrects balance and frees the mind from focusing on single techniqes. It encourages a more adaptive strategy.

3. TWC Lohon Kyuhn, repeated three times or more. An exhilarating workout.

4. Attentive walking: circling a room, taking one...maybe two steps per minute. The focus is on balance and the sensation of the steps. The movement is continuous--no pauses allowed. Not as easy as it looks. Works the brain, but it really improves proprioception and provides a good break from the habit of thinking about stuff. Usually thought of as a Chan practice, but I learned this from a Tibetan teacher of the Kagyu school. Hard work but really refreshing.

5. Hei gung/qigong. I've been working lately on "opening" my upper back which was relatively stuck after years of concentrating too much on mid- and low-spine. The feedback/awareness I'm starting to get is blissful.

YOu should try my drills instead. way more fun than all this...lol :D

[mooyingmantis]

I'm in my early 50s.

I enjoy a personal workout of:
1. 45 minutes of bodybuilding three times a week,
2. Fast repetitions of one Praying Mantis form,
3. Yang style Tai Ji Quan

Richard

[jdhowland]

YOu should try my drills instead. way more fun than all this...lol :D

Nah. Too limited in scope and duration.
jd

[charp choi]

I just love the 2 man drills in Chow Gar SPM.

chy sau, doy chong, dan chong, the 5 directions drill, soc sau chong, gau choi chong etc and the sarm sup luk lin jer see 2 man fighting form.
Pains, aches and bruises. I love it!

Did those the other night at training and I felt great.

[David Jamieson]

I thought Tabatas were 20 seconds on/10 seconds off, or does it only qualify you do it for just 4 minutes?

yeah you have to stick to the 4 minutes apparently. lol

[Frost]

Those aren't Tabata's, they're HIIT's :p

try so badly not to reply.......

[Frost]

Not to be anal retentive but Tabatas are HIGH Intensity HIIT !!
The 20:10 protocol is the same, but the intensity level is much higher, around the 120% Vo2 max.
Which basically means that IF you can do more then 1 set, you aren't doing Tabata's.
However, for the vast majority, they way you do it is, in my view, far better.

Oh f*ck it i cant help myself,

actually it was more like 170% of VO2 which means no one unless they are on a mechanically braked bicycle ergometer with a gun to their head is actually doing tabata ( the fact it was on a bike is so fecking important for so many reasons and is so overlooked by everyone who's on the tabata band wagon!)

[Frost]

Boxing is the original HIIT :)

Tabata Method

A popular regimen based on a 1996 study[2] uses 20 seconds of ultra-intense exercise (at 170% of VO2max) followed by 10 seconds of rest, repeated continuously for 4 minutes (8 cycles). In the original study, athletes using this method trained 4 times per week, plus another day of steady-state training, and obtained gains similar to a group of athletes who did steady state (70% VO2max) training 5 times per week. The steady state group had a higher VO2max at the end (from 52 to 57 ml/kg/min), but the tabata group had started lower and gained more overall (from 48 to 55 ml/kg/min). Also, only the tabata group had gained anaerobic capacity benefits unlike the steady state group.

I stand corrected, it was 170% of the max :eek:

yep id like to see anyone hit that doing bodyweight exercises, sprints or front squats :)

[bawang]

i used to get pumped up when i do forms or lift weights. but after i got my ass brutally beat in high school i always keep my ego in check and remind myself of that fight. i train to be strong and tuff and build character, not to feel good.

u guys are just feeling endorphin pump that u can get from any kind of cardio.

its an illusion. try keep exercising a few hours after that initial rush. u dont feel so good no mor. u wont be hearing the wong fei hong song in ur head after some real bitter training.

[uki]

some exercises make me feel like i did a gagger or two. :)

[Yum Cha]

David, the secret is in the reps and recovery time. Active warm down, back to the Anaerobic sprint, then 10 minutes of continuous mid level exerting. Full rest, another rep.

Aren't you paying attention??? We can send Frost over...

[Frost]

David, the secret is in the reps and recovery time. Active warm down, back to the Anaerobic sprint, then 10 minutes of continuous mid level exerting. Full rest, another rep.

Aren't you paying attention??? We can send Frost over...

out of respect for ronin and all his great pictures i try to keep away from tabata and all the cr^p that surrounds itt.......... but its hard.....never in the field of conditioning has one study been so mis understood and abused :)

[Yum Cha]

out of respect for ronin and all his great pictures i try to keep away from tabata and all the cr^p that surrounds itt.......... but its hard.....never in the field of conditioning has one study been so mis understood and abused :)

<facepalm>

Tabata? Is that what you call drillin the missus?

[Syn7]

I'm in my early 50s.

I enjoy a personal workout of:
1. 45 minutes of bodybuilding three times a week,
2. Fast repetitions of one Praying Mantis form,
3. Yang style Tai Ji Quan

Richard

i understand that you may be settling down and all... but ur students do atleast 10 times as much right??? i mean, stength and conditioning and actual sparring??? right???

[Syn7]

I use the Makita drill. It is quick, efficient, and easier on the hands and wrist... it really packs a punch. It will knock out any other drill.

gotta love them litheon ion batteries....

[Syn7]

Oh f*ck it i cant help myself,

actually it was more like 170% of VO2 which means no one unless they are on a mechanically braked bicycle ergometer with a gun to their head is actually doing tabata ( the fact it was on a bike is so fecking important for so many reasons and is so overlooked by everyone who's on the tabata band wagon!)

im still waiting to read the original study in english... EVERYONE says theyve read it, yet nobody can hook me up with a copy... and ive asked sooo many people... ive looked myself, nothing.. just regurgitated opinions, nothing more... no wonder its so misunderstood, nobody has access to the original study!

[Violent Designs]

Anything from Buk Sing.

Like stated earlier the flow, the full body motion is something else.

[Frost]

im still waiting to read the original study in english... EVERYONE says theyve read it, yet nobody can hook me up with a copy... and ive asked sooo many people... ive looked myself, nothing.. just regurgitated opinions, nothing more... no wonder its so misunderstood, nobody has access to the original study!

i cant find the copy i had, and to get on pubmed you need to be a member, i can post the abstracts from it (which show the original intent, the methods used and the out come) but i think i have posted this before so not sure what much else i can post on it!

[Syn7]

i cant find the copy i had, and to get on pubmed you need to be a member, i can post the abstracts from it (which show the original intent, the methods used and the out come) but i think i have posted this before so not sure what much else i can post on it!

u put those up in the strength and conditioning thread where we first talked about TBs right???



anyone got the study? by all means, please throw us a bone...

[Frost]

u put those up in the strength and conditioning thread where we first talked about TBs right???



anyone got the study? by all means, please throw us a bone...

Yes I did, and to be honest it should be enough to draw conclusions from, I’m not sure what else you can extrapolate from the original study that the extracts don’t show, they show the premise behind the study, how the study was done, and the outcome of the study, that’s normally enough to make a judgement on


Effects of Moderate-Intensity Endurance and High-Intensity Intermittent Training on Anaerobic Capacity and VO2 Max
Title and Abstract

Tabata I. et. al. Effects of moderate-intensity endurance and high-intensity intermittent training on anaerobic capacity and VO2max. Med Sci Sports Exerc. (1996) 28(10):1327-30.

This study consists of two training experiments using a mechanically braked cycle ergometer. First, the effect of 6 wk of moderate-intensity endurance training (intensity: 70% of maximal oxygen uptake (VO2max), 60 min.d-1, 5 d.wk-1) on the anaerobic capacity (the maximal accumulated oxygen deficit) and VO2max was evaluated. After the training, the anaerobic capacity did not increase significantly (P > 0.10), while VO2max increased from 53 +/- 5 ml.kg-1 min-1 to 58 +/- 3 ml.kg-1.min-1 (P < 0.01) (mean +/- SD). Second, to quantify the effect of high-intensity intermittent training on energy release, seven subjects performed an intermittent training exercise 5 d.wk-1 for 6 wk. The exhaustive intermittent training consisted of seven to eight sets of 20-s exercise at an intensity of about 170% of VO2max with a 10-s rest between each bout. After the training period, VO2max increased by 7 ml.kg-1.min-1, while the anaerobic capacity increased by 28%. In conclusion, this study showed that moderate-intensity aerobic training that improves the maximal aerobic power does not change anaerobic capacity and that adequate high-intensity intermittent training may improve both anaerobic and aerobic energy supplying systems significantly, probably through imposing intensive stimuli on both systems.




The Study

The study set out to compare both the anaerobic and aerobic adaptations (in terms of one parameter only, VO2 max) to two different protocols of training. The study recruited 14 active male students who were, at best moderately trained (VO2 max was roughly 50 ml/kg/min which is average at best; elite endurance athletes have values in the 70-80 range).

All work including the pre- and post tests were done on a mechanically braked bicycle ergometer; this is an important point that is often ignored and I’ll come back to in the discussion. Every test or high-intensity workout was proceeded by a 10 minute warm-up at 50% of VO2 max (This is maybe 60-65% maximum heart rate).

The two primary tests were VO2 max and the maximal accumulated oxygen deficit (this is a test of anaerobic capacity, basically people with higher anaerobic capacity can generate a larger oxygen deficit) and then subjected to one of two training programs.

The first program was a fairly standard aerobic training program, subjects exercised 5 days/week at 70% of VO2 max for 60 minutes at a cadence of 70 RPMs for 6 straight weeks. The intensity of exercise was raised as VO2 max increased with training to maintain the proper percentage. VO2 max was tested weekly in this group and the maximal accumulated oxygen deficit was measured before, at 4 weeks and after training.

The second group performed the Tabata protocol. For four days per week they performed 7-8 sets of 20 seconds at 170% of VO2 max with 10 seconds rest between bouts, again this was done after a 10 minute warm-up. When more than 9 sets could be completed, the wattage was increased by 11 watts. If the subjects could not maintain a cadence of 85RPM, the workout was ended.

On the fifth day of training, they performed 30 minutes of exercise at 70% of VO2 max followed by 4 sets of the intermittent protocol and this session was designed to NOT be exhaustive. The anaerobic capacity test was performed at the beginning, week 2, week 4 and the end of the 6 week period; VO2 max was tested at the beginning and at week 3, 5 and the end of training.




Results

For group 1, the standard aerobic training group, while there was no increase in anaerobic capacity, VO2 max increased significantly from roughly 52 to 57 ml/kg/min (I say roughly because the paper failed to provide vaules, I’m going by what’s in the graphic below). Frankly, given the lack of anaerobic contribution to steady state training, the lack of improvement in this parameter is absolutely no surprise.

For group 2, both the anaerobic capacity and VO2 max showed improvements. VO2 max improved in the interval group from 48 ml/kg/min to roughly 55 ml/kg/min (see graphic below). It is worth noting that the interval group was starting with a lower value and may have had more room for improvement. Also note that they still ended up with a lower Vo2 max than the steady state group.

I’ve put Figure 2 from the paper (showing improvements in VO2 max) below


Click to Enlarge

As I noted, pay attention to the fact that the Tabata group (black line, filled circles) started lower than the steady state group, they also still ended up lower than the steady state group. As well, note that pattern of improvement, the Tabata group got most of their improvement in the first 3 weeks and far less in the second three weeks. The steady state group showed more gradual improvement across the entire 6 week period but it was more consistent. As the researchers state regarding the Tabata group

After 3 wk of training, the VO2 max had increased significantly by 5+-3ml.kg/min. It tended to increase in the last part of the training period but no significant changes [emphasis mine] were observed.

Basically, the Tabata group improved for 3 weeks and then plateaued despite a continuingly increasing workload. I’d note that anaerobic capacity did improve over the length of the study although most of the benefit came in the first 4 weeks of the study (with far less over the last 2 weeks).

[SPJ]

so, what are yours?

1. Ba Ji and Ba Gua standing in postures.

usually 8 breaths, but I may stand longer for each posture.

2. Tong bei relaxation drills and 5 palms drills

I may do a couple with fixed step and then variable moving steps

square forward left backward right

zig zag

circle

figure 8

9 palace.

when I do a single palm so many times, I feel just great.

:)

[Syn7]

Yes I did, and to be honest it should be enough to draw conclusions from, I’m not sure what else you can extrapolate from the original study that the extracts don’t show, they show the premise behind the study, how the study was done, and the outcome of the study, that’s normally enough to make a judgement on

the reason why i wanted the study in the first place is coz we were talking about how unreliable all these interpretations are... so i mean, im not questioning your word, but i dunno who these people are that condensed the study or how well they understood it in the first place... reading the original study is the only way for me to get to the bottom of this... i keep seeing so many contradicting opinions... i dunno what to think...

the only thing i think i know forsure is that a real tabata isnt realistic if you can do more than one interval you didnt put out ur all...

but does it not still have good results if you put out less than 170 but still push real hard??? in a tabata fashion, like following that structure without actually doing real tabatas... finding that range where you are close to maxing out but keep enough held back so you can keep going for a bit???

[Frost]

the reason why i wanted the study in the first place is coz we were talking about how unreliable all these interpretations are... so i mean, im not questioning your word, but i dunno who these people are that condensed the study or how well they understood it in the first place... reading the original study is the only way for me to get to the bottom of this... i keep seeing so many contradicting opinions... i dunno what to think...

the only thing i think i know forsure is that a real tabata isnt realistic if you can do more than one interval you didnt put out ur all...

but does it not still have good results if you put out less than 170 but still push real hard??? in a tabata fashion, like following that structure without actually doing real tabatas... finding that range where you are close to maxing out but keep enough held back so you can keep going for a bit???

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/vo2max

if you click the link you can scroll down to the actual graph tabata used

read the figures below, they show how the study was done, the protocols used and the outcome,



Tabata I. et. al. Effects of moderate-intensity endurance and high-intensity intermittent training on anaerobic capacity and VO2max. Med Sci Sports Exerc. (1996) 28(10):1327-30.

This study consists of two training experiments using a mechanically braked cycle ergometer. First, the effect of 6 wk of moderate-intensity endurance training (intensity: 70% of maximal oxygen uptake (VO2max), 60 min.d-1, 5 d.wk-1) on the anaerobic capacity (the maximal accumulated oxygen deficit) and VO2max was evaluated. After the training, the anaerobic capacity did not increase significantly (P > 0.10), while VO2max increased from 53 +/- 5 ml.kg-1 min-1 to 58 +/- 3 ml.kg-1.min-1 (P < 0.01) (mean +/- SD). Second, to quantify the effect of high-intensity intermittent training on energy release, seven subjects performed an intermittent training exercise 5 d.wk-1 for 6 wk. The exhaustive intermittent training consisted of seven to eight sets of 20-s exercise at an intensity of about 170% of VO2max with a 10-s rest between each bout. After the training period, VO2max increased by 7 ml.kg-1.min-1, while the anaerobic capacity increased by 28%. In conclusion, this study showed that moderate-intensity aerobic training that improves the maximal aerobic power does not change anaerobic capacity and that adequate high-intensity intermittent training may improve both anaerobic and aerobic energy supplying systems significantly, probably through imposing intensive stimuli on both systems.

The figures are the mis interpritation, its the context they were used in and the things people left out (liek the fact the group also did one steady state session a week), look at the figures above and the chart i linked, it shows how much they increased VO2 max dby in both groups

Make your decision from the data, nothing else. its pretty consistant across all articles, people quote the anerobic increase and the VO2 increase in the interval group...but its what they leave out thats important.....what they leave out is the fact the VO2 increase slowed in the interval group, as shown in the graph and tabatas own words (dont take my word for it look at the chart i linked), the fact that the VO2 max was lower in the interval group (and as we all know the less conditioned people are the better they respond) and the fact that the VO2 increase for the steady state group contiuned througout the study and always stayed ahead of the interval group) most importnantly they leave out the fact the interval group did 1 session a week of steady state aerobic work, so was it the tabatas or the steady state work that caused the increase in VO2 max?

As for your last question people also leave out the fact that as the study says when output dropped below the 170% mark they stopped the session,

[Syn7]

hey... thanx... if its the original numbers i should be able to work thru it... this stuff isnt my 4tay, but i am interested... i'll muddle through...




As for your last question people also leave out the fact that as the study says when output dropped below the 170% mark they stopped the session,

really... and nobody thought it important to mention that??? the info train can be so frustrating... now with the net and all... this is getting rediculous... am i the only onbe that sees a means of large scale control thru mass disinformation??? i mean, thats always beam the M.O. right, tell em what they will believe and work it to your advantage... but never on such a scale as today... its starting to **** me off... :rolleyes:

also, ur the first person to mention it was all done on an exercise bike... you know, i assumed it was a range of different sets... consistant thru the test group and the control group, but varied none the less... i mean, thats a really important piece of info... i shouldnt have assumed tho, ive only read opinion pieces to date, so you can see why i dont get it very well... anyways, thanx for the links, i'll work thru that...

[Frost]

Syn7 11-30-2010 02:18 PM

hey... thanx... if its the original numbers i should be able to work thru it... this stuff isnt my 4tay, but i am interested... i'll muddle through...


Quote:

Originally Posted by Frost (Post 1063415)
As for your last question people also leave out the fact that as the study says when output dropped below the 170% mark they stopped the session,

really... and nobody thought it important to mention that??? the info train can be so frustrating... now with the net and all... this is getting rediculous... am i the only onbe that sees a means of large scale control thru mass disinformation??? i mean, thats always beam the M.O. right, tell em what they will believe and work it to your advantage... but never on such a scale as today... its starting to **** me off... :rolleyes:

also, ur the first person to mention it was all done on an exercise bike... you know, i assumed it was a range of different sets... consistant thru the test group and the control group, but varied none the less... i mean, thats a really important piece of info... i shouldnt have assumed tho, ive only read opinion pieces to date, so you can see why i dont get it very well... anyways, thanx for the links, i'll work thru that...


We have all been there and done that so don’t feel bad, the fact is people tend to jump on a band wagon and ride it for all its worth, its not tabatas fault he was looking at a very specific point, the Effects of moderate-intensity endurance and high-intensity intermittent training on anaerobic capacity and VO2max, that was it, but people skimmed it (or read extracts of it) and extrapolated all kinds of things from it,

For example
1) All you need to do is intervals for aerobic development (forgetting the fact tabata himself had his people doing an hour of steady state cardio, one 30 min session plus 10 minutes warm up at each interval session)
2) Tabatas is just working hard so anything can be a tabata…. forgetting all about the 170% of VO2 max they were working at, try reaching that doing press ups and sit ups…no one short of having a trainer shouting at them and working on a heavy resistance cardio machine will be able to reach that and work hard for 1 or 2 sets, and no one short of having a gun to their head will actually finish all 8 sets (even the guys doing it were throwing up and lying shaking on the ground afterwards)
3) Safety, it was on a bike so output was very easy to maintain, and safety was paramount, if you blow up on a bike what happens, you stop and maybe fall off, if you blow up doing thrusters or front squats what happens to the bar you are holding….and if you blow up sprinting what tears first?
4) tabatas/intervals are all you need for fat loss…where this comes from I have no idea, tabata didn’t even mention fat loss in the study but people still say its best for fat loss because it elevates hormonal levels for a long time after training, compared to steady state work but cant point to any empirical evidence for this. (Actually I am wrong one study on intervals showed elevated levels for 36hrs after finishing the workout, and burned whopping 36extra calories)



Its not that intervals are not good for you or that aerobic training is all you need, its that calling what you are doing an tabata when you are not following the protocols he is using is silly, and if you are not following those protocols then how on earth can you expect to actually get the results he did?

The industry is a mess to be honest if in doubt look at what has worked for centuries, how do boxers and Thai boxers keep in shape? Lots of steady state cardio (ie running) sports specific intervals on pads and bags and sparring) and that’s about it. If it works for the best conditioned and paid combat athletes in the world chances are its still a good idea

The sports that really understand energy system training are the endurance sports, there even amateurs in triathlons and marathons use heart rate monitors, lactic threshold training etc as standard look up their research and training, or I can post some articles that have scientific backup if you like

[Syn7]

i would like...

bboysyn7@yahoo.com

[Frost]

i would like...

bboysyn7@yahoo.com

no problem ill either post some or e-mail them to you this weekend, what are you after MMA/ figthing specific stuff or just general conditioning stuff and the science behind the energy systems?

[Yum Cha]

@ Frost - I did a little profile of a "Traditional" style of workout, just to see how it compared to the circuit routines being discussed. I see a lot of common ground, would be interested on your thoughts. And anybody elses, for that matter.

Resting heart <80/min
Max recommended 170/min.

75% = 127/m - my recommended training level.

Phase 1: Stretching and warm ups, staff work, shadow boxing
- gets heart up to 120-130. VERY active rest?

Phase 2: 30 second to 1 minute 'sprints' (forms)
( like 200 or 400m run times, but forms).
80 to 100% exertion.
- Pusle rate 163+/m

Phase 3:
1 minute walking rest - 140/m
2 minute walking rest - 100/m
---------------------------------------
4 minutes and 1 cup of tea - 78/m (must be over 50....otherwise dangerous to your training)
----------------------------------------

Repeat -
Another sprint, on this 5-7 minute cycle of: sprint, recover, stretch strength and technique, sprint again. Cups of tea as needed....

Generally start a training session with the longer sprints, and work down to the shorter ones.

I've always considered this pattern to be anaerobic, but from what you are telling me, If I understand correctly, that there is indeed aerobic conditioning as well.

Now, a session may go 30-45 minutes before a full rest, and 1 to 3 hours in total.

My morning workout is less intense, with maybe 50% of the time spent at that 70-75% mark through grass drills, weapons, callisthenics for strength and flexibility, and only maybe 2-3 full sprints over an hour. I'm finding that low impact, wide range of movement, easy going workout to be great for my fitness, strength and weight control, and is providing a better platform for my more intense workouts.

Its really two completely different routines on a weekly cycle, 5-7 small ones, 1-3 big ones.

This is modelled on a TCMA traditional workout, nothing but sticks and trees as training tools, all our little groovy exercises, etc.

One huge difference to my mind, is the "Sprint" nature of our forms execution, vs other more relaxed executions.

Fi lan Di Ah!!

By the way, as an interesting side note, we have one form, twice, and a bit, longer than the others that is all about strength and endurance. Its not until you throw up you know your are having a proper go. Our "Super Sprint" if you will.

[donjitsu2]

For me, nothing beats working on the heavy bag - especially when I'm doing conditioning work.

Zhan Zhuang is probably #2 on the list.

[Frost]

@ Frost - I did a little profile of a "Traditional" style of workout, just to see how it compared to the circuit routines being discussed. I see a lot of common ground, would be interested on your thoughts. And anybody elses, for that matter.

Resting heart <80/min
Max recommended 170/min.

75% = 127/m - my recommended training level.

Phase 1: Stretching and warm ups, staff work, shadow boxing
- gets heart up to 120-130. VERY active rest?

Phase 2: 30 second to 1 minute 'sprints' (forms)
( like 200 or 400m run times, but forms).
80 to 100% exertion.
- Pusle rate 163+/m

Phase 3:
1 minute walking rest - 140/m
2 minute walking rest - 100/m
---------------------------------------
4 minutes and 1 cup of tea - 78/m (must be over 50....otherwise dangerous to your training)
----------------------------------------

Repeat -
Another sprint, on this 5-7 minute cycle of: sprint, recover, stretch strength and technique, sprint again. Cups of tea as needed....

Generally start a training session with the longer sprints, and work down to the shorter ones.

I've always considered this pattern to be anaerobic, but from what you are telling me, If I understand correctly, that there is indeed aerobic conditioning as well.

Now, a session may go 30-45 minutes before a full rest, and 1 to 3 hours in total.

My morning workout is less intense, with maybe 50% of the time spent at that 70-75% mark through grass drills, weapons, callisthenics for strength and flexibility, and only maybe 2-3 full sprints over an hour. I'm finding that low impact, wide range of movement, easy going workout to be great for my fitness, strength and weight control, and is providing a better platform for my more intense workouts.

Its really two completely different routines on a weekly cycle, 5-7 small ones, 1-3 big ones.

This is modelled on a TCMA traditional workout, nothing but sticks and trees as training tools, all our little groovy exercises, etc.

One huge difference to my mind, is the "Sprint" nature of our forms execution, vs other more relaxed executions.

Fi lan Di Ah!!

By the way, as an interesting side note, we have one form, twice, and a bit, longer than the others that is all about strength and endurance. Its not until you throw up you know your are having a proper go. Our "Super Sprint" if you will.

is your resting HR really 80bpm?

If you are doing it that way, extended sprints over 30 seconds with an average HR in thr 160bpm, and then resting between sets until HR is down around or below 100bpm then you are indeed working anearobically not really aerobically

there is a difference between only just going out of the aerobic zone (generally 120 to 150bpm for most people) and going out of it for a long time over 160bpm for example for extended periods and the below 120 for extended periods, the work has to be continious to be effective

[Yum Cha]

is your resting HR really 80bpm?

If you are doing it that way, extended sprints over 30 seconds with an average HR in thr 160bpm, and then resting between sets until HR is down around or below 100bpm then you are indeed working anearobically not really aerobically

there is a difference between only just going out of the aerobic zone (generally 120 to 150bpm for most people) and going out of it for a long time over 160bpm for example for extended periods and the below 120 for extended periods, the work has to be continious to be effective

Let me clarify, the full rests only come every maybe 3 cycles of sprint and active warm down. In that 3-5 minutes of active warm down, heart rate stays around 120-140 for most of it, then there's a breather, down to 100, that's the aerobic part I'm thinking I could possibly extend. I've always felt like I shouldn't get too 'cold' when working through a series of sets. But from what I"m hearing, I could add the extra minute or 3, as long as I keep the heart rate up over 120ish. Sound right?

Is 80 high? That's not the 'wake up' rate, that's maybe 4-5 minutes and half a cup of tea after a few sets. Its my 'sitting around' pulse, I guess.

[LSWCTN1]

10mm gravel filled wallbag...

nothing like beating away the days stresses - leaves you strangely relaxed!

[Frost]

Let me clarify, the full rests only come every maybe 3 cycles of sprint and active warm down. In that 3-5 minutes of active warm down, heart rate stays around 120-140 for most of it, then there's a breather, down to 100, that's the aerobic part I'm thinking I could possibly extend. I've always felt like I shouldn't get too 'cold' when working through a series of sets. But from what I"m hearing, I could add the extra minute or 3, as long as I keep the heart rate up over 120ish. Sound right?

Is 80 high? That's not the 'wake up' rate, that's maybe 4-5 minutes and half a cup of tea after a few sets. Its my 'sitting around' pulse, I guess.

Yep its high!

A general test of fitness is your resting HR rate, normally tested after a few minutes quite sitting down, if its above 70bpm, then you have a poorly developed aerobic system and you need to spend time developing the aerobic base. This is normally seen in people, who do a lot of anaerobic work, hard conditioning, heavy power lifting etc,


Anaerobic work tends to lead to Concentric hypertrophy in the heart, it causes thickness in the muscle walls so the heart doesn’t become bigger it just becomes stronger and able to push more blood through with each beat (hence you still have a high resting heart rate generally when you over do this type of trainng)

This means that although the heart may be stronger, cardiac output is not improved much, if at all, and the heart must work harder to deliver the necessary blood. The end result is your power can be higher, but you will fatigue much faster.

Aerobic work in the correct range tends to create another form of Eccentric hypertrophy, the left ventricle fills with blood and enlarges if enough constant pressure is kept on it (hence you need extended time in the correct HR zone) a bigger left ventricle means your HR comes down (both at rest and whilst working) because with each beat you are able to push more and more oxygen rich blood around the body and to the muscles, this means you can produce more power aerobically, are less likely to go anaerobic too soon, and when you do go anaerobic you can recover quicker ( a win win situation, especially when you consider the huge influence genetics has on the anaerobic system and the relative inability to make real improvements in it, compared to the real ability to influence the aerobic systems power and capacity)

That’s one reason why you shouldn’t train truly anaerobic and aerobic methods together and expects good results: they cause different adaptation in the heart. The hearts a muscle like any other and if you ask it to do two conflicting things you don’t get good results (just as you wont get great results in maximum strength gains if you do tonnes of muscular endurance work at the same time)

They also have different effect on the body itself, some of those differences are as follows:

Aerobic training causes an increase in the oxygen carrying capacity of the blood (through both increased blood volume and increased hematocrit)

(anaerobic training teaches the body to work better without oxygen)

Aerobic training causes an increase in capillarization around skeletal muscle

Aerobic training causes an increase in both mitochondrial number and density, these are the oxygen systems power plants for want of a better phrase (anaerobic training causes a decrease in the number of mitochondrial)

Aerobic training causes Increases in levels of enzymes involved in energy production (anaerobic training causes a decrease in enzyme levels)

When you take this into account you come to realise that aerobic and anaerobic training should as much as possible be separated, and that it’s a good idea to create an aerobic base before hitting the anaerobic stuff, otherwise you wont have the ability to recover from the training or train hard enough to actually get any results :)

[donjitsu2]

Is 80 high? That's not the 'wake up' rate, that's maybe 4-5 minutes and half a cup of tea after a few sets. Its my 'sitting around' pulse, I guess.


Then 80 isn't you true resting pulse. It isn't high. I'd say that's a fairly typical pulse rate for a normal adult male who's been up for a bit.

Could it be better? Maybe. I've never been concerned with (nor have I ever heard of any other trainers being concerned with) a "sitting around" pulse rate. Typically, you only need to concern yourself with your TRUE resting pulse, your training heart rate, and the speed at which your heart rate returns to it's "base" level (which for you would be around 70-90 bpm).

Train Hard,
Josh Skinner

[Yum Cha]

thanks Heaps guys, that's the good oil. In a language I understand.

My style is an anaerobic style, but I can see how I can improve my aerobic training as well towards better health and performance by stretching out that interim phase a bit.