Traditonal Versus Progressive Arts

[HumbleWCGuy]

In my gym we talk about the technician phase and the practitioner phase of training. The technician learns techniques and hones them to perfection although he/she may not be a master of application. The practitioner has understands timing rhythm, and application.

Often, in traditional arts students spend far too much time in the technician phase. That is people spend too much time drilling in unrealistic ways which might have great value for a time, but ultimately do not provide the student with the feedback necessary to become a practitioner. In progressive arts people enter into the practitioner phase too early. That's is too much heavy sparring and competition before developing a full skill set which leads to relying on very basic and limited skills just to survive.

Conclusion: People who spend a year or two doing solid traditional training and make the move to more progressive training techniques will be better fighters on average than those who strictly follow the traditional training or the progressive training.

[sanjuro_ronin]

When did traditional stop being progressive?
We can have the best of both worlds.

[Knifefighter]

In progressive arts people enter into the practitioner phase too early.
No they don't.


Conclusion: People who spend a year or two doing solid traditional training and make the move to more progressive training techniques will be better fighters on average than those who strictly follow the traditional training or the progressive training.
No they won't.

[HumbleWCGuy]

When did traditional stop being progressive?
We can have the best of both worlds.

In reality, never, which is why I think that traditional arts still produce the best fighters.

[HumbleWCGuy]

No they don't.


No they won't.

You think that you can fight and you study bjj and kali. Are those not traditional arts?

[Knifefighter]

You think that you can fight and you study bjj and kali. Are those not traditional arts?

It's not the arts being traditional or not... it's the training and how soon you put it into practice. The sooner, the better. The best competitors in the world- BJJ, boxing, Judo, SAMBO, and MT- all start hard application early. The "waiting until you get all the basics down" just delays the process of really learning and gives one a huge disadvantage over the long run.

[HumbleWCGuy]

It's not the arts being traditional or not... it's the training and how soon you put it into practice. The sooner, the better. The best competitors in the world- BJJ, boxing, Judo, SAMBO, and MT- all start hard application early. The "waiting until you get all the basics down" just delays the process of really learning and gives one a huge disadvantage over the long run.

Since I know boxing and MT the best, I will speak to them. Both produce great fighters no doubt, but both also produce a lot of really sloppy fighters getting by on athletic ability, heart, and good chins.


I think that you have a point with the grappling arts. I think that the grappling arts might be a bit different because heavy sparring doesn't put people in mortal danger. Getting tapped out is annoying but one can feel free to experiment more in grappling.

[Frost]

Since I know boxing and MT the best, I will speak to them. Both produce great fighters no doubt, but both also produce a lot of really sloppy fighters getting by on athletic ability, heart, and good chins.

without sounding like a **** where are all the technical good traditionally based fighters then? where is the proof that a few years of solid training makes you a better fighter? Are they dominating K1, international full contact bouts, or MMA with there slick stand up skills?


I think that you have a point with the grappling arts. I think that the grappling arts might be a bit different because heavy sparring doesn't put people in mortal danger. Getting tapped out is annoying but one can feel free to experiment more in grappling.

Mortal danger?
Heavy sparring in class (stand up) is different than full contact fighting, just as full out grappling sparring is different from competition, in both cases you know your training partner and you know he will stop if you get hurt (most of the time) its not the same danger as you face in a fight where the opponent is not looking to get better or help you improve your game, but to actually hurt you

[YungChun]

There has to be a base... And depending on the art, each can choose how much of a base... They don't let the noobs at my local boxing gym spar until they get a 'good base'.... At least a few months..

WCK is more complicated than boxing and requires it's own base like it or not. (Then of course we can debate what that base should be and how to train it..)

The key is not one way or the other it's both.

In the beginning, the core training guides application, later application guides the core training.....

Folks get too complacent in their WCK training and go off on goofy tangents..

Low intensity or even boring repetition is very necessary, for *perfection work* grapplers/boxers do it too. But to do one to the near exclusion of the other is the error IMO.

What most train is really Ving Tsun Do, not Ving Tsun Kuen...

[uki]

most traditions progress...

[t_niehoff]

This is a classic example of how-I-think/want-things-should/to-be (theoretical nonfighter) POV versus this-is-what-the-evidence-shows (fighter) POV.

[Kansuke]

Um, the 'progressive' arts want to redistribute all your money?

[k gledhill]

Um, the 'progressive' arts want to redistribute all your money?


nailed it ...:D

[Dragonzbane76]

Um, the 'progressive' arts want to redistribute all your money?

over long periods of time. :)

[Kansuke]

over long periods of time. :)

Well, F those arts then.

[sanjuro_ronin]

In kyokushin, as well as judo ( two examples I am very familiar with, "freestyle" sparring happens as soon as possible.
The amount of contact allowed in kyokushin is dependant,to an extent, on how comfortable the rookie is.
Same thing goes for boxing and MT.
Those systems, by the way, are all, basically, traditional systems.

[HumbleWCGuy]

There has to be a base... And depending on the art, each can choose how much of a base... They don't let the noobs at my local boxing gym spar until they get a 'good base'.... At least a few months..

WCK is more complicated than boxing and requires it's own base like it or not. (Then of course we can debate what that base should be and how to train it..)

The key is not one way or the other it's both.

In the beginning, the core training guides application, later application guides the core training.....

Folks get too complacent in their WCK training and go off on goofy tangents..

Low intensity or even boring repetition is very necessary, for *perfection work* grapplers/boxers do it too. But to do one to the near exclusion of the other is the error IMO.

What most train is really Ving Tsun Do, not Ving Tsun Kuen...

Exactly, martial arts is more complicated than boxing so depending on a person's dedication it may take a anywhere from 6 months to 2 years before they can ramp up their training considerably.

[HumbleWCGuy]

without sounding like a **** where are all the technical good traditionally based fighters then? where is the proof that a few years of solid training makes you a better fighter? Are they dominating K1, international full contact bouts, or MMA with there slick stand up skills?


Mortal danger?
Heavy sparring in class (stand up) is different than full contact fighting, just as full out grappling sparring is different from competition, in both cases you know your training partner and you know he will stop if you get hurt (most of the time) its not the same danger as you face in a fight where the opponent is not looking to get better or help you improve your game, but to actually hurt you

My point is that starting traditional and then moving to a more progressive style of training is the most beneficial. The only ones that I can list are the ones that started in karate or TKD and then moved to something that uses progressive training. One can go into a Muay Thai gym and get the same level of coaching, but I don't see it as often in the U.S. because instructors are usually interested in running guys to smokers to build their reputation.

Anderson Silva
Duke Roufus
Rick Roufus
Andy Hug
Bas Rutten
Loyoto Machida


Mortal was an overstatement, I assumed that a reader could handle it and move on.
FYI-Heavy sparring is full-contact sparring. And, when beginners are forced into it before they have a full-command of basic offense and defense, they develop sloppy habits. Getting punched and kicked hard without having a command of basic offense and defense is not a good situation whether it is in the class or the ring.

[sanjuro_ronin]

My point is that starting traditional and then moving to a more progressive style of training is the most beneficial. The only ones that I can list are the ones that started in karate or TKD and then moved to something that uses progressive training. One can go into a Muay Thai gym and get the same level of coaching, but I don't see it as often in the U.S. because instructors are usually interested in running guys to smokers to build their reputation.

Anderson Silva
Duke Roufus
Rick Roufus
Andy Hug
Bas Rutten
Loyoto Machida

FYI-Heavy sparring is full-contact sparring. And, when beginners are forced into it before they have a full-command of basic offense and defense, they develop sloppy habits.

You can add George St.Pierre to that list too.

[Knifefighter]

There has to be a base... And depending on the art, each can choose how much of a base... They don't let the noobs at my local boxing gym spar until they get a 'good base'.... At least a few months..

WCK is more complicated than boxing and requires it's own base like it or not. (Then of course we can debate what that base should be and how to train it..)

.
BJJ is 10 times more complicated than WC, but that doesn't stop them from sparring relatively soon.

[Knifefighter]

You can add George St.Pierre to that list too.

Why do many of those guys have traditional backgrounds? Because if you started off as a kid, those were the types of programs your parents put you in. Most fighters, cr@ppy and good, had some kind of karate or kung fu training as kids.

[HumbleWCGuy]

BJJ is 10 times more complicated than WC, but that doesn't stop them from sparring relatively soon.

I agree, but it is much easier to spar regularly and hard with a bjj beginner than a beginner in upright fighting because there is not a severe consequence for not having all of the skills.

[Knifefighter]

And, when beginners are forced into it before they have a full-command of basic offense and defense, they develop sloppy habits. Getting punched and kicked hard without having a command of basic offense and defense is not a good situation whether it is in the class or the ring.

Getting into sparring and competition early has nothing to do with being sloppy. Being sloppy has to do with bad coaching and or not being "coachable". The guys with sloppy technique would be sloppy even if they didn't compete. While they may be "sloppy", they are better fighters than if they wouldn't have the sparring/competition under their belts.

[m1k3]

I agree, but it is much easier to spar regularly and hard with a bjj beginner than a beginner in upright fighting because there is not a severe consequence for not having all of the skills.

Unless you are the person rolling with the beginner. I think the spaz factor causes more injuries in BJJ/grappling than anything else.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Why do many of those guys have traditional backgrounds? Because if you started off as a kid, those were the types of programs your parents put you in. Most fighters, cr@ppy and good, had some kind of karate or kung fu training as kids.

If that style of training is wholesale crap then there should be no reason why the list of people who started in traditional arts is also a list of standouts. It should provide no advantage.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Unless you are the person rolling with the beginner. I think the spaz factor causes more injuries in BJJ/grappling than anything else.

I had to laugh when I saw this. My buddy just got to where he started hammering beginners because he was sick of getting hurt.

[Knifefighter]

WC is only "more complicated" than boxing because it has so many "filler" techniques and training methods that don't translated well into fighting.

Boxing and MT are just as complicated, and probably more so, in terms of what works.

[Knifefighter]

If that style of training is wholesale crap then there should be no reason why the list of people who started in traditional arts is also a list of standouts. It should provide no advantage.

It doesn't. You will also find that just as many (probably more) second and third rate fighters also have traditional backgrounds.

[Knifefighter]

Unless you are the person rolling with the beginner. I think the spaz factor causes more injuries in BJJ/grappling than anything else.

If you are an advanced BJJ practioner and are getting injured by beginners, you aren't really advanced after all.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Getting into sparring and competition early has nothing to do with being sloppy. Being sloppy has to do with bad coaching and or not being "coachable". The guys with sloppy technique would be sloppy even if they didn't compete. While they may be "sloppy", they are better fighters than if they wouldn't have the sparring/competition under their belts.

I am not advocating that people stop competing and sparring in upright to become better fighters. I am just suggesting that a slower process of developing fighters is a better one.
Jumping straight into sparring and fighting will create a competent fighters more quickly but it does not produce great fighters with complete skill sets.

[HumbleWCGuy]

It doesn't. You will also find that just as many (probably more) second and third rate fighters also have traditional backgrounds.

It doesn't change the fact that the best strikers have traditional backgrounds. We can always find strikers with no traditional training who are better than those who had traditional training. The important point is that fighters are generally better off by starting out with traditional training. As evidence to that, the best upright fighters almost categorically had traditional training prior to their full-contact careers.

[m1k3]

If you are an advanced BJJ practioner and are getting injured by beginners, you aren't really advanced after all.

Never said I was advanced but I have moved beyond the spaz phase. Maybe one shouldn't read too much into people's posts. :p

[Knifefighter]

I am not advocating that people stop competing and sparring in upright to become better fighters. I am just suggesting that a slower process of developing fighters is a better one.
Jumping straight into sparring and fighting will create a competent fighters more quickly but it does not produce great fighters with complete skill sets.

Sure it does. Muay Thai and boxing start sparring early and those systems produces the best standup fighters in the world.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Why do many of those guys have traditional backgrounds? Because if you started off as a kid, those were the types of programs your parents put you in. Most fighters, cr@ppy and good, had some kind of karate or kung fu training as kids.

Very true, no argument there.

[Knifefighter]

It doesn't change the fact that the best strikers have traditional backgrounds. We can always find strikers with no traditional training who are better than those who had traditional training. The important point is that fighters are generally better off by starting out with traditional training. As evidence to that, the best upright fighters almost categorically had traditional training prior to their full-contact careers.

The worst fighters also had traditional training as a base. Since there are more bad and mediocre fighters in the world, by using your reasoning, one would have to assume that the traditional training is a hindrance.

[uki]

The worst fighters also had traditional training as a base. Since there are more bad and mediocre fighters in the world, by using your reasoning, one would have to assume that the traditional training is a hindrance.best and worst defined by rules and regulations... LOL... you're funny. :rolleyes:

[HumbleWCGuy]

Sure it does. Muay Thai and boxing start sparring early and those systems produces the best standup fighters in the world.

boxing does not produce the best standup fighters in the world. Boxing is incomplete as an upright art. Any fighter with a plumb can shut a boxer down. The best upright fighters in the world typically have trained in Muay Thai but it isn't their base art as my list shows.

[HumbleWCGuy]

The worst fighters also had traditional training as a base. Since there are more bad and mediocre fighters in the world, by using your reasoning, one would have to assume that the traditional training is a hindrance.

The worst fighters do ONLY traditional training which is not what I am advocating. I am speaking to the interaction between the traditional and progressive.

[Knifefighter]

boxing does not produce the best standup fighters in the world. Boxing is incomplete as an upright art. Any fighter with a plumb can shut a boxer down. The best upright fighters in the world typically have trained in Muay Thai but it isn't their base art as my list shows.

Boxers have shut down MT fighters just as often as MT guys have shut down boxers. Both are the best at producing fighters.

"Base art" just means they started it as kids. Has nothing to do with them being good now.

There has been a much bigger percentage of MMA champs over the years whose base art was wrestling. Again, by your reasoning, anyone who wants to be a good fighter should start with wrestling first.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Boxers have shut down MT fighters just as often as MT guys have shut down boxers. Both are the best at producing fighters.

"Base art" just means they started it as kids. Has nothing to do with them being good now.

There has been a much bigger percentage of MMA champs over the years whose base art was wrestling. Again, by your reasoning, anyone who wants to be a good fighter should start with wrestling first.

In Full Rules MT guys with good boxing skills can shut down a traditional MT fighter but no one who is a strick boxer will shutdown a MT fighter in Full Rules (even matching assumed).

There is some truth to the fact that wrestling is an important determinant in who will be a UFC champion. Takedown defense and positional dominance on the ground cannot be underestimated.

[Knifefighter]

The worst fighters do ONLY traditional training which is not what I am advocating. I am speaking to the interaction between the traditional and progressive.

OK, let's follow your route of reasoning...

Karate is clearly better than WC as a base art for producing good fighters since none of the fighters you listed have WC backgrounds, but most of them have karate backgrounds.

[Knifefighter]

In Full Rules MT guys with good boxing skills can shut down a traditional MT fighter but no one who is a strick boxer will shutdown a MT fighter in Full Rules (even matching assumed)..

Please site the evidence where this has happened.

[taai gihk yahn]

Getting into sparring and competition early has nothing to do with being sloppy. Being sloppy has to do with bad coaching and or not being "coachable". The guys with sloppy technique would be sloppy even if they didn't compete. While they may be "sloppy", they are better fighters than if they wouldn't have the sparring/competition under their belts.
qft;

if u look at GOOD motor learning research, it's pretty straight forward: the "best" method of acquiring skill involves a short initial period of training where things are broken down and practiced in a simplified, rote manner, but that very quickly gets changed into a relatively random-style of practice; that's because random practice forces you to "relearn" at every given moment; in ML research it's called a higher level of "contextual interference" (CI); the trick is getting just the right amount, not too hard, not too easy...rehab medicine is the same way; which is why the field has spent so much time studying ML; the key is that random training w/higher CI increases the degree of both retention and of transfer (being able to take an existing skill and apply it under a novel circumstance; which is where things get real interesting and where the whole TMA vs. MM argument really arises out of - IOW, what approach wil enable one to function best in "the street" - LOL, we have the same arguments in the world of PT guys, it's nothing new!;

the thing about learning is that if u have too much success at any stage in the game, you are actually degrading your overall degree of skill building! the problem w/most MA training is that it feeds this need for success; so you do your one steps 10,000 times - be honest, after the first 100, you've pretty much got that down; but you get feed some mumbo about "it's never perfect" - well, true, but what is? problem is that it's an artifact; as is most sparring too - at the same time, the "real world" is not the most convenient to train in either; so you go for as close as an approximation as u can, because this is what gives u the best chance of being able to "transfer" the skill; meaning that it is better to go all out but not use certain specific techniques (eye gouges, throat rips, etc.) than it is to practice specific techniques out of context (eye gouges w/compliant opponents); IOW, the CI effect in TMA is usually way lower than in more "live" environments; sorry TMA guys, that's what the research shows (and u can argue that "research" doesn't show what's what, but my next question would be is, how much do u really know about the research method? poo-pooing research w/out knowing what it's really all about would be like denegrating ITCMA w/out having actually studied it, right?)

if u look at any "great" fighter, artist, musician, etc., they will spend more time talking about their failures and frustrations (if they are being honest, that is) then they do about their relative success...that's because they r always training at the edge of their ability, they rarely live in a comfort zone...

[Knifefighter]

qft;

if u look at GOOD motor learning research, it's pretty straight forward: the "best" method of acquiring skill involves a short initial period of training where things are broken down and practiced in a simplified, rote manner, but that very quickly gets changed into a relatively random-style of practice; that's because random practice forces you to "relearn" at every given moment; in ML research it's called a higher level of "contextual interference" (CI); the trick is getting just the right amount, not too hard, not too easy...rehab medicine is the same way; which is why the field has spent so much time studying ML; the key is that random training w/higher CI increases the degree of both retention and of transfer (being able to take an existing skill and apply it under a novel circumstance; which is where things get real interesting and where the whole TMA vs. MM argument really arises out of - IOW, what approach wil enable one to function best in "the street" - LOL, we have the same arguments in the world of PT guys, it's nothing new!;

the thing about learning is that if u have too much success at any stage in the game, you are actually degrading your overall degree of skill building! the problem w/most MA training is that it feeds this need for success; so you do your one steps 10,000 times - be honest, after the first 100, you've pretty much got that down; but you get feed some mumbo about "it's never perfect" - well, true, but what is? problem is that it's an artifact; as is most sparring too - at the same time, the "real world" is not the most convenient to train in either; so you go for as close as an approximation as u can, because this is what gives u the best chance of being able to "transfer" the skill; meaning that it is better to go all out but not use certain specific techniques (eye gouges, throat rips, etc.) than it is to practice specific techniques out of context (eye gouges w/compliant opponents); IOW, the CI effect in TMA is usually way lower than in more "live" environments; sorry TMA guys, that's what the research shows (and u can argue that "research" doesn't show what's what, but my next question would be is, how much do u really know about the research method? poo-pooing research w/out knowing what it's really all about would be like denegrating ITCMA w/out having actually studied it, right?)

if u look at any "great" fighter, artist, musician, etc., they will spend more time talking about their failures and frustrations (if they are being honest, that is) then they do about their relative success...that's because they r always training at the edge of their ability, they rarely live in a comfort zone...

Hey! Quit talking evidence and scientific fact.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Taai has stated the correct.
If we take any physical endevour we see that pattern he states yields the best results.

[HumbleWCGuy]

OK, let's follow your route of reasoning...

Karate is clearly better than WC as a base art for producing good fighters since none of the fighters you listed have WC backgrounds, but most of them have karate backgrounds.

That's probably true on the whole.

[HumbleWCGuy]

qft;

if u look at GOOD motor learning research, it's pretty straight forward: the "best" method of acquiring skill involves a short initial period of training where things are broken down and practiced in a simplified, rote manner, but that very quickly gets changed into a relatively random-style of practice; that's because random practice forces you to "relearn" at every given moment; in ML research it's called a higher level of "contextual interference" (CI); the trick is getting just the right amount, not too hard, not too easy...rehab medicine is the same way; which is why the field has spent so much time studying ML; the key is that random training w/higher CI increases the degree of both retention and of transfer (being able to take an existing skill and apply it under a novel circumstance; which is where things get real interesting and where the whole TMA vs. MM argument really arises out of - IOW, what approach wil enable one to function best in "the street" - LOL, we have the same arguments in the world of PT guys, it's nothing new!;

the thing about learning is that if u have too much success at any stage in the game, you are actually degrading your overall degree of skill building! the problem w/most MA training is that it feeds this need for success; so you do your one steps 10,000 times - be honest, after the first 100, you've pretty much got that down; but you get feed some mumbo about "it's never perfect" - well, true, but what is? problem is that it's an artifact; as is most sparring too - at the same time, the "real world" is not the most convenient to train in either; so you go for as close as an approximation as u can, because this is what gives u the best chance of being able to "transfer" the skill; meaning that it is better to go all out but not use certain specific techniques (eye gouges, throat rips, etc.) than it is to practice specific techniques out of context (eye gouges w/compliant opponents); IOW, the CI effect in TMA is usually way lower than in more "live" environments; sorry TMA guys, that's what the research shows (and u can argue that "research" doesn't show what's what, but my next question would be is, how much do u really know about the research method? poo-pooing research w/out knowing what it's really all about would be like denegrating ITCMA w/out having actually studied it, right?)

if u look at any "great" fighter, artist, musician, etc., they will spend more time talking about their failures and frustrations (if they are being honest, that is) then they do about their relative success...that's because they r always training at the edge of their ability, they rarely live in a comfort zone...

Sorry, but you basically support my point and then conclude that only the progressive or fight training is needed. One of the most important points to remember about learning is the yerkes-dodson law applied to learning. YDL says that optimal performance occurs at moderate levels of arousal. Similarly, moderate arousal best facilitates learning. Solid traditional training provides this. Hard sparring is a high arousal situation and is not an appropriate time to learn large amounts of new material.

[Kansuke]

Again, by your reasoning, anyone who wants to be a good fighter should start with wrestling first.



That is very solid reasoning.

[anerlich]

In progressive arts people enter into the practitioner phase too early. That's is too much heavy sparring and competition before developing a full skill set which leads to relying on very basic and limited skills just to survive.


This is (of course) a gross overgeneralisation. If you think all "progressive" schools are like this, you need to go to a few more.

The most progressive MAist and MA instructor I've met, John Will, does not advocate hard sparring straight away (or even that often). There is a progression to be followed in sparring along with everything else. He does a lot of moderate speed rolling and sparring with varying degrees of cooperation. There is full on rolling and sparring, which is essential to some degree for physical and mental conditioning, but this would probably max out at a couple of rounds a night. Black belts smashing white belts round after round doesn't help either group progress.

John's also a "technician", as you describe it, from hell. As KF said, BJJ is WAY more complex than WC. Technique is almost all. You don't have decent technique, you aren't going to become good at BJJ or enjoy it much.

No one can go balls to the wall all the time anyway. Too many injuries. Also a "hard, tough" culture gets counterproductive, because no one is prepared to experiment because the consequences of mistakes are too high. So the improvement rate is slower.

Another coach I respect won't let his guys train MMA until they've done a minimum six months each of kickboxing, wrestling, and BJJ classes. My coach doesn't do that, but he does expect six months of technique before he allows anyone in the ring even at training.

Your labels and categories don't really match reality. I've met many "technicians" in "progressive" schools (at 55, I've had to become one myself), and LOTS of "progressives" in TMA's.

[SAAMAG]

Unless you are the person rolling with the beginner. I think the spaz factor causes more injuries in BJJ/grappling than anything else.

Truth. I had a girl who was a relative beginner jack me in the mouth with her foot from the bottom because she was flailing all over the place instead of controlling and using position to gain the advantage during a roll at the local MMA gym.

So I can definitly attest to that.

To the original post however, I think a more succinct way of putting things is that those who have spent an appropriate amount of time learning / drilling their techniques will have an easier time transitioning to the application part of things against resistant opponents. Why? Because they will not have to concentrate as hard on the literal movement and focus more on things like the strategy, tactics, timing, and conditioning of fighting.

[taai gihk yahn]

Sorry, but you basically support my point
I don't know what your point was in the first place, i wasn't trying to either support it or refute it; I was simply posting in a general sense;


and then conclude that only the progressive or fight training is needed.
I don't "conclude" anything; I presented what the research in the field of ML has indicated in regards to optimal motor skill acquisition; if we examine the research, it would seem that, in general, skill acquisition in TMA's do not coincide with the findings, since many TMA's devote disproportionate time to relatively abstract practice of technique (form) out of context of application (fighting);


One of the most important points to remember about learning is the yerkes-dodson law applied to learning. YDL says that optimal performance occurs at moderate levels of arousal. Similarly, moderate arousal best facilitates learning. Solid traditional training provides this. Hard sparring is a high arousal situation and is not an appropriate time to learn large amounts of new material.
your counter-argument does not address my point; I said nothing about arousal level, nor even about sparring per se; I was talking about things in a general principle sense; and what I presented in no way advocates "learning large amounts of new material" in a "high arousal" situation; you either misread my post or are deliberately attempting t mischaracterize it; so here's what I said, in a nutshell: at the very beginning of motor skill acquisition, breaking things down and repeating them in a controlled situation is preferable; however, one should then start to introduce randomness into practice at a relatively early stage, increasing the level of contextual interference to a point where the task is not too hard, but not too easy (how one determines this, the criteria for this happy medium, is a subject for further discussion, of course, and tends to be highly skill and context specific); the goal is to make the practice context as close to ultimate performance context as much as possible, as quickly as possible; however, within this context, there are other parameters that can be adjusted so as not to overwhelm the student (e.g. - intensity / duration of practice, knowledge of results and feedback ratios, etc.);

[HumbleWCGuy]

This is (of course) a gross overgeneralisation. If you think all "progressive" schools are like this, you need to go to a few more.
.
Generalization... Of course... "Overgeneralized" only in that all generalizations are overgeneralizations. I am not going to spend an hour typing out qualifications because people can't get their mind around the short version. What makes you think that all traditional schools are a certain way either? Anyone with any sense knows that there are schools at the extreme and a gamut of schools on the continuum between those extremes.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Please site the evidence where this has happened.

It would be difficult to find such evidence because boxing versus kickboxing isn't done. Boxing in a kickboxing match is bringing a gun to a knife fight. Full rules MT fighter easily capitalize on the mistakes made in boxing. Basic boxing defenses turn into dangerous mistakes in full rules MT. If you trained in MT, I should not have to explain it to you. You should already know this.

[Knifefighter]

It would be difficult to find such evidence because boxing versus kickboxing isn't done. Boxing in a kickboxing match is bringing a gun to a knife fight. Full rules MT fighter easily capitalize on the mistakes made in boxing. Basic boxing defenses turn into dangerous mistakes in full rules MT. If you trained in MT, I should not have to explain it to you. You should already know this.

Actually, if you had trained the way you have claimed, you wouldn't be making such stupid generalizations.

BTW, sparring when done regularly is not a high arousal state after a relatively short amount of time. It quickly becomes the norm. You would know this if you had the background you claim.

[Knifefighter]

It would be difficult to find such evidence because boxing versus kickboxing isn't done.
Yes it is. Again, if you had the background you claim, you would know this.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Yes it is. Again, if you had the background you claim, you would know this.

Dude, you can't fight at all so you really need to just stop. You are almost always wrong. Your techniques is sloppy and in in mma you are easily defeated by blue belt BJJ players with decent striking. If you see boxers beating kickboxers then you are kickboxing with the worst kickboxers on the planet.

[Knifefighter]

Dude, you can't fight at all so you really need to just stop. You are almost always wrong. Your techniques is sloppy and in in mma you are easily defeated by blue belt BJJ players with decent striking. If you see boxers beating kickboxers then you are kickboxing with the worst kickboxers on the planet.

LOL... you should just STFU now because you are making yourself look even stupider than you have in the past.

It's very clear by every post you have ever made that you have no clue about anything related to actual full-contact fighting.

[weakstudent]

It would be difficult to find such evidence because boxing versus kickboxing isn't done. Boxing in a kickboxing match is bringing a gun to a knife fight. Full rules MT fighter easily capitalize on the mistakes made in boxing. Basic boxing defenses turn into dangerous mistakes in full rules MT. If you trained in MT, I should not have to explain it to you. You should already know this.

you mean with there leg techniques only, never with the hands, a mt champion will never beat boxing champion if they just use there hands

[Knifefighter]

If you see boxers beating kickboxers then you are kickboxing with the worst kickboxers on the planet.

Really now?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLDJ6GeRRh4
http://www.fighttips.com/videos/other-federations/real-muay-thai-vs-boxing:-style-vs-style-200812111465/

Thanks for proving your stupidity once again.

[HumbleWCGuy]

you mean with there leg techniques only, never with the hands, a mt champion will never beat boxing champion if they just use there hands

Absolutely not! I am saying that boxing is a subset of MT. In FULL RULES MT, much of boxing is irrelevant. A person trained in boxing who just has a leg check will get destroyed in a full rules MT match. Conventional boxing in a full rules MT setting amounts to a lot of mistakes from a MT stand point.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Really now?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLDJ6GeRRh4
http://www.fighttips.com/videos/other-federations/real-muay-thai-vs-boxing:-style-vs-style-200812111465/

Thanks for proving your stupidity once again.

Definately stupidity because neither K1 nor that other fight are full rules MT. If boxing is superior why don't boxing champions transition and just use boxing?

In both cases a weak MT fighter was put against a boxer who was much better. In the second link, the boxer was wearing shin pads. Like I said, horrible kickboxing can be beaten by boxing. If the fights are matched equally that crap does not happen especially in full rules MT.

Boxing VS. Full Rules Muay Thai is nothing but a sideshow. If you really know MT we would not be having this conversation. The first clip shows a boxer who has transitioned to kickboxing not a boxer versus a kickboxing.

In the k1 fight, Choi Yong-Soo was throwing kicks so I think that he has brought kickboxing to a kickboxing match not boxing to a kickboxing match.

[goju]

It's very clear by every post you have ever made that you have no clue about anything related to actual full-contact fighting.

this coming from a guy who considers grappling matches "fights"
LOLLOLOLOLOLOL

[weakstudent]

holy crap, does bodying shots broke your MT champion, a champion boxer whip his ass, heres the guide to being a mma fighter

1. hands = boxing
2. legs = muay thai
3. body = wresters
4. and of course Bjj

thats about it. i mean if i was a young buck and wanted to be a mma fighter thats what i'll do.

[anerlich]

Anyone with any sense knows that there are schools at the extreme and a gamut of schools on the continuum between those extremes.

Duh ... so your thread focusing on only the two extremes would be pretty pointless then, wouldn't it?


"Overgeneralized" only in that all generalizations are overgeneralizations.

OK, grammar nazi. :rolleyes: You seem to agree, then, that you're pushing this barrow further than it's little rusty wheels will take it.


I am not going to spend an hour typing out qualifications because people can't get their mind around the short version.

Your short version makes no sense, that's why no one can get their mind around it.


What makes you think that all traditional schools are a certain way either?

I never said they were. They're your labels, not mine. Sheesh. I can go on about how your "traditional" label is just as inappropriate as your "progressive" one if you think I haven't given them equal time, or something.

Perhaps you should consider changing your screen name to arrogantwcguy. Not a lot of humility going on here.

[anerlich]

why don't boxing champions transition?

It's an Olympic sport for amateurs, and, though that may change, it still pays better than MMA or MT for pros.

[HumbleWCGuy]

It's an Olympic sport for amateurs, and, though that may change, it still pays better than MMA or MT for pros.

Yea, but if you can make a quick 60 grand pounding chumps, why turn it down if boxing trumps kickboxing so thoroughly. That's a lot of money for a young boxing pro or journeyman.

[anerlich]

I've edited my previous post. I was answering the part about why boxers don't transition. I have no opinion to share on the superiority or otherwise of anything -fighters win fights, not styles or rules.

[HumbleWCGuy]

I've edited my previous post. I was answering the part about why boxers don't transition. I have no opinion to share on the superiority or otherwise of anything -fighters win fights, not styles or rules.

Why do you train bjj then if any ol' thing will work?

[anerlich]

What's that got to do with why boxers stick with boxing?

I train BJJ because the internet forums are saner.

[YungChun]

WC is only "more complicated" than boxing because it has so many "filler" techniques and training methods that don't translated well into fighting.

Boxing and MT are just as complicated, and probably more so, in terms of what works.

There are more tools, techniques, attributes and tactics in WC, whether you like them or not.. To say WB which has FAR less (not necessarily a bad thing btw) is more complicated is to ignore what each art is about...and the meaning of what I wrote.

[HumbleWCGuy]

this coming from a guy who considers grappling matches "fights"
LOLLOLOLOLOLOL

He really needs to pull his head out of his a$$. I think that he dreamed that he did some MT once, but it was actually PKA style kickboxing which is trumped by boxing. Forget the MT, if he knew his WC like he says that he does, this conversation would not be occurring.

[Frost]

Why do many of those guys have traditional backgrounds? Because if you started off as a kid, those were the types of programs your parents put you in. Most fighters, cr@ppy and good, had some kind of karate or kung fu training as kids.

Bingo well pointed out, Bas started in karate but moved to Thai very early and this is the art he uses to fight with, saying its because of the traditional art he trained in as a kick is silly

[goju]

He really needs to pull his head out of his a$$. I think that he dreamed that he did some MT once, but it was actually PKA style kickboxing which is trumped by boxing. Forget the MT, if he knew his WC like he says that he does, this conversation would not be occurring.

i personally couldnt make out any known stand up style in his play match that was caught on tape

bit of drunken monkey here and there and some stanky leg thrown in for good measure butme thinks his striking experience is grossly exaggerated:D

[goju]

Bingo well pointed out, Bas started in karate but moved to Thai very early and this is the art he uses to fight with, saying its because of the traditional art he trained in as a kick is silly

funny ive heard him giv alot of credit to kk karate he even claimed he still did kata when he was fighting

[Frost]

If that style of training is wholesale crap then there should be no reason why the list of people who started in traditional arts is also a list of standouts. It should provide no advantage.

It does not prove that training in a traditional arts provides any advantage if it did the following who never trained a traditioanl art would not have been good fighters

ernesto hoost
Remy Bonjasky
Cro Cop
Wanderi
the Rua brothers

All never seen a traditional martial art all started in kick boxing or Thai, so your point is exaclty?

[goju]

i think you misread
from this it soundslike he got into mt because they had more full contact oppurtunities

http://www.fightingmaster.com/fighters/rutten/

"While Bas prefers fighting he actually believes in kata (prearranged martial arts movements) which is unusual among most UFC fighters. He believes that it is very good for controlling your breathing. To go through 45 movements and have your last kick be as powerful is very difficult."

[Frost]

It doesn't change the fact that the best strikers have traditional backgrounds. We can always find strikers with no traditional training who are better than those who had traditional training. The important point is that fighters are generally better off by starting out with traditional training. As evidence to that, the best upright fighters almost categorically had traditional training prior to their full-contact careers.

Hoost and Remi are two of the best strikers the world has seen, where was there traditional back ground? All it proves is that they were attracted to martial arts from an early age and trained in what they could find, and when it did not work for them they moved on to something more effective

[Frost]

It's an Olympic sport for amateurs, and, though that may change, it still pays better than MMA or MT for pros.

try why would a good boxer give up a much better pay day to fight in mma? it makes sense to go where the best money is

[Frost]

He really needs to pull his head out of his a$$. I think that he dreamed that he did some MT once, but it was actually PKA style kickboxing which is trumped by boxing. Forget the MT, if he knew his WC like he says that he does, this conversation would not be occurring.

If you have been on this forum for any length of time you would remember he wrote about being invited to fight in Japan against pro Thais when he was a kid, so let me ask you this question since you are again flinging the mud about Knifes credentials where are your videos and fight records, dale at least put up some clips of full contact fighter where are yours?

[Frost]

i personally couldnt make out any known stand up style in his play match that was caught on tape

bit of drunken monkey here and there and some stanky leg thrown in for good measure butme thinks his striking experience is grossly exaggerated:D

get f*cking youtube his full contact fights showed some very nice thai clinch work... he about watching them before comentating?

[Frost]

i think you misread
from this it soundslike he got into mt because they had more full contact oppurtunities

http://www.fightingmaster.com/fighters/rutten/

"While Bas prefers fighting he actually believes in kata (prearranged martial arts movements) which is unusual among most UFC fighters. He believes that it is very good for controlling your breathing. To go through 45 movements and have your last kick be as powerful is very difficult."

he believes its good for your breathing, said nothing about it helping him in fighting, it said he started Ma's at 14, stopped and then restarted at 21, as far as i know he restarted MA at 21 in thai not karate, does not say how long he trained Karate etc so it proeves neither of our points

[goju]

get f*cking youtube his full contact fights showed some very nice thai clinch work... he about watching them before comentating?

i doubt ill be impressed lookat that clip he moved like he was made of tin:D

[goju]

he believes its good for your breathing, said nothing about it helping him in fighting, it said he started Ma's at 14, stopped and then restarted at 21, as far as i know he restarted MA at 21 in thai not karate, does not say how long he trained Karate etc so it proeves neither of our points

its not important to breathe properly in fights or have stamina?

[Frost]

i doubt ill be impressed lookat that clip he moved like he was made of tin:D

i love young kids who make fun of people when they have never competed or done anything :rolleyes:

show us your tapes of you moving better that dale please:D

[Frost]

its not important to breathe properly in fights or have stamina?

did i say that? i said he said nothing about it helping him fight, and from the clips i have seen of him training other fighters he uses his Bas workout tapes to get them in shape, not Kata:D

[goju]

did i say that? i said he said nothing about it helping him fight, and from the clips i have seen of him training other fighters he uses his Bas workout tapes to get them in shape, not Kata:D
:p

yes he believes in kata for himself

that quote from the webpage points to him believing it improves breathe control and stamina which obviously help in a fight

i dont see why you think this is not him stating its useful for fighting by him claiming that hes is saying just that

[goju]

i love young kids who make fun of people when they have never competed or done anything :rolleyes:

show us your tapes of you moving better that dale please:D

i said dale looked stiff as board

i think its safe to say im not stiff XD
http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=5207&d=1242157392


and it has nothing to do with the fact he is old as dust ive seen phil redmonds and dale dugas stuff online and was very very impressed

[HumbleWCGuy]

If you have been on this forum for any length of time you would remember he wrote about being invited to fight in Japan against pro Thais when he was a kid, so let me ask you this question since you are again flinging the mud about Knifes credentials where are your videos and fight records, dale at least put up some clips of full contact fighter where are yours?

Yea, I keep hearing about this big invite, the B.S. that he spouts pretty much says it all. If you want to believe what he says about upright fighting, be my guest. There isn't any substance to most of his comments.

[Frost]

:p

yes he believes in kata for himself

that quote from the webpage points to him believing it improves breathe control and stamina which obviously help in a fight

i dont see why you think this is not him stating its useful for fighting by him claiming that hes is saying just that

That quote from the website is not from him, its a piece written about him by a third party, that is not really an accurate way to get information, it does not site any references for the points its says. How are we to know its accurate?

in the actual interview he says nothing about Kata, but does say this “striking wise I would say that I learned the most at Mean Ho gym in Breda Holland.” Ie from thai boxing not from kata

[goju]

also come on he calls himself "knife fighter "

how the hell can you take him seriously?

[Frost]

i said dale looked stiff as board

i think its safe to say im not stiff XD
http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=5207&d=1242157392


and it has nothing to do with the fact he is old as dust ive seen phil redmonds and dale dugas stuff online and was very very impressed

lol if you think the splits helps you be relaxed in a fighter then you really need to get out more:)

[goju]

That quote from the website is not from him, its a piece written about him by a third party, that is not really an accurate way to get information, it does not site any references for the points its says. How are we to know its accurate?

in the actual interview he says nothing about Kata, but does say this “striking wise I would say that I learned the most at Mean Ho gym in Breda Holland.” Ie from thai boxing not from kata

yeah im not saying he claimed kata was the key to teh ultimate deadly i dont know why your trying to turn it into that

[HumbleWCGuy]

i personally couldnt make out any known stand up style in his play match that was caught on tape

bit of drunken monkey here and there and some stanky leg thrown in for good measure butme thinks his striking experience is grossly exaggerated:D

That clip was a bad attempt at using empty hand Kali. There is no doubt that it (his upright) was exaggerated. If I were to rank him at my gym, he would be a white sash which is essentially anyone with less than 2 years of consistent training.

[goju]

lol if you think the splits helps you be relaxed in a fighter then you really need to get out more:)
actually they do the more stiff you are well...the more stiff you move

i didnt say you have to do the splits to be fluid or graceful but being as flexible as you can helps and i find it funny that someone like dale who moves like he has rigormortis teaches people how to gain flexibility

[Frost]

Yea, I keep hearing about this big invite, the B.S. that he spouts pretty much says it all. If you want to believe what he says about upright fighting, be my guest. There isn't any substance to most of his comments.

well lets see everyone on the net makes BS claims, i.e. to have had plenty of full contact fights in the past, to be a great grappler etc these claims are everywhere.....now hypothetically who would you believe if two guys were arguing a point about fighting? , the one who posts videos of himself in full contact matches both with and without weapons, who has an actual record in grappling, MMA etc or the guy without any proof they have had even one fight?

[Frost]

yeah im not saying he claimed kata was the key to teh ultimate deadly i dont know why your trying to turn it into that

ok what I am saying is that I have not seen him say anything about Kata helping anywhere, all I have seen is a third party comment on a website about Kata, what i am saying is that he does say that the Thai gym taught him how to fight, and that when actually training his fighters for stamina he uses the Bas workout tapes not kata, so how he really feels about kata is to me still a mystery. If I see an acutall interview with him talking about kata I will change my mind Is that fair enough?

[goju]

well lets see everyone on the net makes BS claims, i.e. to have had plenty of full contact fights in the past, to be a great grappler etc these claims are everywhere.....now hypothetically who would you believe if two guys were arguing a point about fighting? , the one who posts videos of himself in full contact matches both with and without weapons, who has an actual record in grappling, MMA etc or the guy without any proof they have had even one fight?

i would take the well known fighter whos fought high caliber opponents opinion over anyone

but i dont see anybody around here like that do you?:D

when anderson silva joins the board ill stop laughing and start listening:D

[goju]

ok what I am saying is that I have not seen him say anything about Kata helping anywhere, all I have seen is a third party comment on a website about Kata, what i am saying is that he does say that the Thai gym taught him how to fight, and that when actually training his fighters for stamina he uses the Bas workout tapes not kata, so how he really feels about kata is to me still a mystery. If I see an acutall interview with him talking about kata I will change my mind Is that fair enough?

certainly but again i didnt claim or care what he teaches his fighters im sure lyoto isnt teaching guys he trains with kata either but he does it himself:D

and of course youc an have two different stories rigth form the horses mouth as well look at cung lees contradictory comments about his legs scissor takedown

[HumbleWCGuy]

yeah im not saying he claimed kata was the key to teh ultimate deadly i dont know why your trying to turn it into that

Kata and forms teach you how to control your body, breathing, tension, relaxation, and basic combination. Bas has asthma. People with asthma are more sensitive to proper breathing technique and mastery of ones body. Your average mma fighter is a complete knuckle head and they have no appreciation for the finer points of fighting.

[Frost]

actually they do the more stiff you are well...the more stiff you move

i didnt say you have to do the splits to be fluid or graceful but being as flexible as you can helps and i find it funny that someone like dale who moves like he has rigormortis teaches people how to gain flexibility
And I can’t help but think back to the Gracie challenge with the hapkido guy doing the splits, then in the actual fight looking very stiff as he got beaten up go figure

Also there is a difference between static and dynamic flexibility, you do know that right, just because you have static flexibility does not automatically mean you have dynamic flexibility

[Frost]

i would take the well known fighter whos fought high caliber opponents opinion over anyone

but i dont see anybody around here like that do you?:D

when anderson silva joins the board ill stop laughing and start listening:D


that’s like saying you will only take grappling advice from a BJJ black belt and world champion, when in actuality you can learn a lot from a blue belt if your level is that low

you can learn a lot from an amateur Thai fighter if you have never competed, and you can learn a lot from an amateur MMA guy if you have never competed.

[goju]

lol again im not saying if youcan do the spilts you are an ass kicker
but it certainly helps with your movement

i can demosntrate some dynamic stuff tomorrow if not this week some time

granted it will be pics because i dont know how to make vids but still.....

[HumbleWCGuy]

well lets see everyone on the net makes BS claims, i.e. to have had plenty of full contact fights in the past, to be a great grappler etc these claims are everywhere.....now hypothetically who would you believe if two guys were arguing a point about fighting? , the one who posts videos of himself in full contact matches both with and without weapons, who has an actual record in grappling, MMA etc or the guy without any proof they have had even one fight?

I would evaluate the substance of the claims. Dale may have posted videos but they were not impressive and you forget the fact that he serves as a troll on this board rather than a top contributor.

[goju]

that’s like saying you will only take grappling advice from a BJJ black belt and world champion, when in actuality you can learn a lot from a blue belt if your level is that low

you can learn a lot from an amateur Thai fighter if you have never competed, and you can learn a lot from an amateur MMA guy if you have never competed.

yes but when this amateur or blue belt is a complete egotistical ass and lives in his delusional fantasy world then i have no use for him or her

actually i was very impressed with a local amateur fighter in colorado he had amazing foot work and speed but again he was humble, his proverbial cup was empty, and he didnt think he knew more than he did

[Frost]

also come on he calls himself "knife fighter "

how the hell can you take him seriously?


So what? we have an ultimatewingchun guy who has never competed or proved his wingchun is ultimate, a humblewingchun guy who at times is anything but humble, a guy posting as Goju .....

Seeing as he actually fights with knifes (all be it dull metal blades) in full contact competition then what’s in a name?

[Frost]

That clip was a bad attempt at using empty hand Kali. There is no doubt that it (his upright) was exaggerated. If I were to rank him at my gym, he would be a white sash which is essentially anyone with less than 2 years of consistent training.

did you see his full contact clips?

[Frost]

.... Your average mma fighter is a complete knuckle head and they have no appreciation for the finer points of fighting.

oh christ can we cut out the gross generalisations... or at least change your handle as this is not exactly humble is it:rolleyes:

[goju]

So what? we have an ultimatewingchun guy who has never competed or proved his wingchun is ultimate, a humblewingchun guy who at times is anything but humble, a guy posting as Goju .....

Seeing as he actually fights with knifes (all be it dull metal blades) in full contact competition then what’s in a name?

its the equivalent of me or you calling ourselves

joe kick @ass: undefeated street fighting king

[HumbleWCGuy]

did you see his full contact clips?

Yes, I saw a highlight real.

[Frost]

its the equivalent of me or you calling ourselves

joe kick @ass: undefeated street fighting king

my point is that there are alot of silly names here, at least dale has faught with knifes (and been attacked with real ones on a few occasions, read some of his old posts) so picking fault with his name is silly

[Frost]

Yes, I saw a highlight real.

and what did you think of his stand up then?

[goju]

my point is that there are alot of silly names here, at least dale has faught with knifes (and been attacked with real ones on a few occasions, read some of his old posts) so picking fault with his name is silly

oh yeah i wrestled alligators with my barehands as well back when i was young i could crush their skulls with my tiger claw...true story

and another reason i cant take him seriously is because of those rediculous pms he sent me about only fighting like they do in teh hardcore streets

[Frost]

oh yeah i wrestled alligators with my barehands as well back when i was young i could crush their skulls with my tiger claw...true story

and another reason i cant take him seriously is because of those rediculous pms he sent me about only fighting like they do in teh hardcore streets

Pms i don't care about i have not read them and everyone is silly on these boards.

And Dale saying he faces a few knifes back in the day and that is why he looked into grappling with knifes so much is not that outlandish, i know the guy who invented the STAB programme and his story was very similar. And the fact is if you read Dales posts about knife defence and the like and have any knowledge of effective edge weapons stuff what he writes is golden. The same when he writes about grappling, so i don't boudt the stuff he writes about stnadup fighting is also good, and i don't think his name on the board is that silly when compareed to others

[goju]

Pms i don't care about i have not read them and everyone is silly on these boards.

And Dale saying he faces a few knifes back in the day and that is why he looked into grappling with knifes so much is not that outlandish, i know the guy who invented the STAB programme and his story was very similar. And the fact is if you read Dales posts about knife defence and the like and have any knowledge of effective edge weapons stuff what he writes is golden. The same when he writes about grappling, so i don't boudt the stuff he writes about stnadup fighting is also good, and i don't think his name on the board is that silly when compareed to others

the unfortunate/amusing thing is he was being serious

the stuff he writes about stand up is good? did you see his comments on the reverse punch? lol

[HumbleWCGuy]

and what did you think of his stand up then?

His best striking moments were a lot of hit and run single shots and clinch knees. He didn't have command of the ring. I didn't see a command of anything that wasn't super basic. I had a 12 year-old white sash who had a self defense episode who demonstrated about the same level of command: single shots to the clinch. Dale could be at the next level which is 2-4 years of experience if I quizzed him. I cut older guys a break on execution to some extent. I am not saying that he looks like a total newbie, but I can't make a case for him having more than 2 years of experience based on those clips.

[Frost]

His best striking moments were a lot of hit and run single shots and clinch knees. He didn't have command of the ring. I didn't see a command of anything that wasn't super basic. I had a 12 year-old white sash who had a self defense episode who demonstrated about the same level of command: single shots to the clinch. Dale could be at the next level which is 2-4 years of experience if I quizzed him. I cut older guys a break on execution to some extent. I am not saying that he looks like a total newbie, but I can't make a case for him having more than 2 years of experience based on those clips.

I agree to some extent, i saw some nice clinch work, and someone who these days is obviously much better with weapons and grappling then straight stand up. And in MMA command of the basics in strking is all you need. How would you agree that if someone had faught full contact a few decades ago but now spends most of there time on grappling and weapons stuff, thats how they might look?

[Frost]

certainly but again i didnt claim or care what he teaches his fighters im sure lyoto isnt teaching guys he trains with kata either but he does it himself:D

and of course youc an have two different stories rigth form the horses mouth as well look at cung lees contradictory comments about his legs scissor takedown

So how about posting an interivew where he says he still uses kata and why he uses them, otherwise we might as well not talk about it as it is all guess work

[HumbleWCGuy]

I agree to some extent, i saw some nice clinch work, and someone who these days is obviously much better with weapons and grappling then straight stand up. And in MMA command of the basics in strking is all you need. How would you agree that if someone had faught full contact a few decades ago but now spends most of there time on grappling and weapons stuff, thats how they might look?

That is certainly possible. I also don't see much evidence that he has kept up on it mentally judging by the way that he talks at times.

[Frost]

That is certainly possible. I also don't see much evidence that he has kept up on it mentally judging by the way that he talks at times.

i would also say that thats how people look when fighting without gloves and with very little protection, do your guys compete like this as well as in kickboxing, and how different do they look from one venue to another?

[HumbleWCGuy]

i would also say that thats how people look when fighting without gloves and with very little protection, do your guys compete like this as well as in kickboxing, and how different do they look from one venue to another?

There are differences across events for sure. The differences are mostly rules related. Although, protective equipment can play a role. I was brought up in the martial arts using the predecessor to the mma glove and no other pads. I pretty much teach my students to fight bare knuckles and give them additional techniques that are specific to having nice think boxing gloves to protect their hands. Basically, I train them to the rules of the competition but the base art is a bare-knuckles, no-rules. I am about half and half on shin guards because they allow people to get away with bad habits.

On a different note:
Dale's upright is probably sufficient for mma as you suggest, but it is not sufficient to come to a board of upright specialists to pontificate.

[t_niehoff]

Dale's upright is probably sufficient for mma as you suggest, but it is not sufficient to come to a board of upright specialists to pontificate.

"Upright specialists"! LOL!

Let me rephrase this -- Dale's stand-up is fundamentally sound and has been proven to work against well-conditioned, skilled fighters in fighting but some of us don't like it when he comes to a board of mainly theoretical nonfighters who believe they really know how things should be done, and point out how they are really clueless.

[Frost]

There are differences across events for sure. The differences are mostly rules related. Although, protective equipment can play a role. I was brought up in the martial arts using the predecessor to the mma glove and no other pads. I pretty much teach my students to fight bare knuckles and give them additional techniques that are specific to having nice think boxing gloves to protect their hands. Basically, I train them to the rules of the competition but the base art is a bare-knuckles, no-rules. I am about half and half on shin guards because they allow people to get away with bad habits.

On a different note:
Dale's upright is probably sufficient for mma as you suggest, but it is not sufficient to come to a board of upright specialists to pontificate.

so your guys fight in MMA then which venues do they fight im?

they might specialise in upright fighting but until a few of them put out videos of themseles fightsing full contact like Dale did i sill hold judgement on whether their skill level is better than his

[Frost]

"Upright specialists"! LOL!

Let me rephrase this -- Dale's stand-up is fundamentally sound and has been proven to work against well-conditioned, skilled fighters in fighting but some of us don't like it when he comes to a board of mainly theoretical nonfighters who believe they really know how things should be done, and point out how they are really clueless.

To be fair they probably can be described as up right specialists... where that specialisation is any good or of any use is a different matter

[YungChun]

"Upright specialists"! LOL!

Are called bi-peds...:o

[HumbleWCGuy]

"Upright specialists"! LOL!

Let me rephrase this -- Dale's stand-up is fundamentally sound and has been proven to work against well-conditioned, skilled fighters in fighting but some of us don't like it when he comes to a board of mainly theoretical nonfighters who believe they really know how things should be done, and point out how they are really clueless.

Dale is a troll as are you.

[Knifefighter]

There are differences across events for sure. The differences are mostly rules related. Although, protective equipment can play a role. I was brought up in the martial arts using the predecessor to the mma glove and no other pads. I pretty much teach my students to fight bare knuckles and give them additional techniques that are specific to having nice think boxing gloves to protect their hands. Basically, I train them to the rules of the competition but the base art is a bare-knuckles, no-rules. I am about half and half on shin guards because they allow people to get away with bad habits.

On a different note:
Dale's upright is probably sufficient for mma as you suggest, but it is not sufficient to come to a board of upright specialists to pontificate.

LOL @ upright specialists. As your posts constantly prove, you are far from that.

You or any of your students have never having actually fought full-contact. You, as well as your students, are nothing but a bunch of theoretical non-fighters. Your posts show that over and over again.

The fact that you have a bunch of kung fu forms training and then picked up a bunch of videos on MT makes you no standup expert.

Please feel free to prove me wrong, though by posting the link to your school and some of these competitions that your pretend, theoretical non-fighting students compete in. Of course everyone knows you can't do that, because it's all made up stuff.

[HumbleWCGuy]

so your guys fight in MMA then which venues do they fight im?

they might specialise in upright fighting but until a few of them put out videos of themseles fightsing full contact like Dale did i sill hold judgement on whether their skill level is better than his

That sounds good to me.

[HumbleWCGuy]

LOL @ upright specialists. As your posts constantly prove, you are far from that.

You or any of your students have never having actually fought full-contact. You, as well as your students, are nothing but a bunch of theoretical non-fighters. Your posts show that over and over again.

The fact that you have a bunch of kung fu forms training and then picked up a bunch of videos on MT makes you no standup expert.

Please feel free to prove me wrong, though by posting the link to your school and some of these competitions that your pretend, theoretical non-fighting students compete in. Of course everyone knows you can't do that, because it's all made up stuff.
Dale I would beat your a$$ senseless like half the people on this board. I am still waiting for you to post something where you don't look like a complete ham and egger.

[Knifefighter]

so your guys fight in MMA then which venues do they fight im?

they might specialise in upright fighting but until a few of them put out videos of themseles fightsing full contact like Dale did i sill hold judgement on whether their skill level is better than his

Of course they don't compete. Anyone who has a competition background can immediately tell by his posts he has no experience in this realm other than watching fights.

[Knifefighter]

Dale I would beat your a$$ senseless like half the people on this board.

LOL... I'm sure you would. Just like in the rest of your fantasies.

[Frost]

Dale I would beat your a$$ senseless like half the people on this board. I am still waiting for you to post something where you don't look like a complete ham and egger.

and we are still waiting for you to post anything..... anything.......

[Knifefighter]

and we are still waiting for you to post anything..... anything.......

LOL... of course he can't. It should be obvious to everyone by now this guy is 100% troll.

[HumbleWCGuy]

LOL... of course he can't. It should be obvious to everyone by now this guy is 100% troll.

Frost has no video up and the ones that you have up just confirm how horrible your kickboxing is.

[Knifefighter]

Frost has no video up and the ones that you have up just confirm how horrible your kickboxing is.

And your clueless statements prove how crappy your kickboxing is.

[Frost]

Frost has no video up and the ones that you have up just confirm how horrible your kickboxing is.

true but then i am not saying Dales videos suck and that i can do better, if i was i would have to put something up to prove i could do better, i happen to think think they are quite good

[sanjuro_ronin]

We have ALL seen what Dale can do, in MMA, submission grappling, in full contact stick and "knife" fighting.
We have all seen what he can do.
We have seen NOTHING from those that are "devaluing" His stuff.
Enough said.

[Frost]

We have ALL seen what Dale can do, in MMA, submission grappling, in full contact stick and "knife" fighting.
We have all seen what he can do.
We have seen NOTHING from those that are "devaluing" His stuff.
Enough said.

oh would you stop being sensible and constructive and post some naked girls please!

[HumbleWCGuy]

We have ALL seen what Dale can do, in MMA, submission grappling, in full contact stick and "knife" fighting.
We have all seen what he can do.
We have seen NOTHING from those that are "devaluing" His stuff.
Enough said.

Whether you have seen my stuff or not, it doesn't make his any good.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Whether you have seen my stuff or not, it doesn't make his any good.

It calls into question any validity you make about YOUR fighting prowess and even you MA ability, as you have mentioned t Terrence a few times I think.

[Frost]

It calls into question any validity you make about YOUR fighting prowess and even you MA ability, as you have mentioned t Terrence a few times I think.

stop argueing from a sensible position and show us the women already!

[sanjuro_ronin]

stop argueing from a sensible position and show us the women already!

nazi !
http://blog.officialbabe.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/karla-spice-02.jpg

[HumbleWCGuy]

It calls into question any validity you make about YOUR fighting prowess and even you MA ability, as you have mentioned t Terrence a few times I think.

I don't care if you think that I can fight or not or if you believe anything that I have to say. It is your loss as far as I am concerned.

[Knifefighter]

Whether you have seen my stuff or not, it doesn't make his any good.

No, but since you are using it to question my abilities and claim that yours are better, it would necessitate you posting your own clips. Should be a simple matter. Simply record some full-contact sparring sessions.

Until then, all you prove is that you are worse than I am.

[Frost]

No, but since you are using it to question my abilities and claim that yours are better, it would necessitate you posting your own clips. Should be a simple matter. Simply record some full-contact sparring sessions.

Until then, all you prove is that you are worse than I am.

would you stop being sensible too and go back to being a troll :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

I don't care if you think that I can fight or not or if you believe anything that I have to say. It is your loss as far as I am concerned.

I can tell you don't care by how you don't post replies and by your humility.
:D

[Wayfaring]

Whether you have seen my stuff or not, it doesn't make his any good.

Why do these conversations always degrade into "seeing each other's stuff"? No wonder sanjuro has to post so many pics of hot chicks. It's to counterbalance th3 gay on these threadz.

[taai gihk yahn]

I don't care if you think that I can fight or not or if you believe anything that I have to say.
then why do you bother to post?


It is your loss as far as I am concerned.
we all feel the loss...

[HumbleWCGuy]

then why do you bother to post?


we all feel the loss...

Primarily I post because I learned non-traditional WC so I am interested in how the traditional people approach training and fighting. Secondly, I like to think out loud and run ideas by people to see how people will react to them. Occasionally, I like to offer up my knowledge and experience when I feel that it is appropriate.

lately I have been getting sidetracked by laughing at Fale and Niehoff; both have gone insane since I called them out for having sloppy skills and limited understanding. However, it really doesn't matter if anyone believes that I am a credible resource or not. I am not here to give free martial arts lessons to fools.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Why do these conversations always degrade into "seeing each other's stuff"? No wonder sanjuro has to post so many pics of hot chicks. It's to counterbalance th3 gay on these threadz.

BAM !!
http://www.funniest-stuff.com/wp-content/uploads/denise_milani_hot_babe_from_police.jpg

[m1k3]

Primarily I post because I larp non-traditional WC so I am interested in how the traditional people approach training and fighting. Secondly, I like to run at the mouth and throw up stupid ideas all over people to see how they will react to them. Occasionally, I like to offer up what passes for knowledge and experience, at least to me, when I feel that it is appropriate, which is all the time.

lately I have been getting sidetracked by being laughed at by Dale and Niehoff and pretty much everyone else; both have driven me insane since they called me out for my limited understanding and petty comments. However, it really doesn't matter if anyone believes that I am a credible resource or not. I am here to give free martial arts lessons to fools.


There, fixed that for you, and thanks for the honesty. :D

[HumbleWCGuy]

There, fixed that for you, and thanks for the honesty. :D

You forgot to change the name on the quote to M1K3. You have never posted an original or intelligent thought. You are killing me because you are trying to suck up to one of the worst mma fighters in existence.

[m1k3]

You forgot to change the name on the quote to M1K3. You have never posted an original or intelligent thought. You are killing me because you are trying to suck up to one of the worst mma fighters in existence.

Ahhh, you don't like humor when its pointed at you.

Don't care about t. or Dale one way or the other. I just thought it might be fun to do a little trolling here. If this bothers you don't ever post on Bullshido, you wouldn't last a week with skin this thin.

Ask not for whom the bell trolls, it trolls for thee.

Booyah!

Actually that was too ez. I expected more from you HWC. At least an appreciation of how good trolling is done.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Ahhh, you don't like humor when its pointed at you.

Don't care about t. or Dale one way or the other. I just thought it might be fun to do a little trolling here. If this bothers you don't ever post on Bullshido, you wouldn't last a week with skin this thin.

Ask not for whom the bell trolls, it trolls for thee.

Booyah!

Actually that was too ez. I expected more from you HWC. At least an appreciation of how good trolling is done.

Fair enough then ha ha.

[anerlich]

Secondly, I like to think out loud and run ideas by people to see how people will react to them.

It would appear that your ideas overwhelmingly result in either irritation or ridicule, so maybe you could bring the experiment to a conclusion? Please?


upright specialists

I think that means "people who can't groundfight".

[HumbleWCGuy]

It would appear that your ideas overwhelmingly result in either irritation or ridicule, so maybe you could bring the experiment to a conclusion? Please?

the irritation of niehoff and dale frank along with a few guys who aren't experienced enough to understand that these two really don't know what they are doing when it comes to upright fighting. I would hardly call that cause for alarm.


I think that means "people who can't groundfight".
It has more to do with committing time and effort to the upright game than lack of grappling skill. Although most specialists have to let something suffer to be really good at something else.

[HumbleWCGuy]

No, but since you are using it to question my abilities and claim that yours are better, it would necessitate you posting your own clips. Should be a simple matter. Simply record some full-contact sparring sessions.

Until then, all you prove is that you are worse than I am.

The problem with that is that your skills are weak and you dispense nothing but foolishness on the board. Like I said before Dale, if you had a big boy job with insurance, you would understand my need for anonymity.

[Knifefighter]

the irritation of niehoff and dale frank along with a few guys who aren't experienced enough to understand that these two really don't know what they are doing when it comes to upright fighting. I would hardly call that cause for alarm.

And your "expertise" comes from what experience exactly?

[Knifefighter]

The problem with that is that your skills are weak and you dispense nothing but foolishness on the board. Like I said before Dale, if you had a big boy job with insurance, you would understand my need for anonymity.

LOL... plenty of people have outside jobs, yet post their credentials and those of their schools.

If anyone dispenses foolishness, it would be you. You are either a complete troll or completely clueless about anything having to do with standup fighting.

[HumbleWCGuy]

LOL... plenty of people have outside jobs, yet post their credentials and those of their schools.

If anyone dispenses foolishness, it would be you. You are either a complete troll or completely clueless about anything having to do with standup fighting.
Working at a gas stations, delivering pizzas, and being desk clerk at a hotel aren't jobs that qualify as professional jobs.

[HumbleWCGuy]

LOL... plenty of people have outside jobs, yet post their credentials and those of their schools.

If anyone dispenses foolishness, it would be you. You are either a complete troll or completely clueless about anything having to do with standup fighting.

Credentials only have value when you can back them up with something other than foolishness. You have a few credentials posted but who would allow you to instruct them?

[Knifefighter]

Working at a gas stations, delivering pizzas, and being desk clerk at a hotel aren't jobs that qualify as professional jobs.

Yeah, I can see how you would be embarrassed that people might see the dumba$$ things you post here. It would be embarrassing to be exposed as someone who is that clueless.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Yeah, I can see how you would be embarrassed that people might see the dumba$$ things you post here. It would be embarrassing to be exposed as someone who is that clueless.

Nah, I just would be able to expose a moron like you so thoroughly. The funny thing about you is that you come on to this board to tell others how to do their WC but it really seems to me that you are the one who is struggling. Any long-time instructor could set you up with a list of 6 or 8 trapping sets that you could train that would make you look like you were a WC master over the course of a few months, but you have burned so many bridges that I can't imagine that you will ever have effective WC. I could leave this board for 10 years and come back and you will still be looking for the secret ingredient. LOL

[Knifefighter]

Nah, I just would be able to expose a moron like you so thoroughly. The funny thing about you is that you come on to this board to tell others how to do their WC but it really seems to me that you are the one who is struggling. Any long-time instructor could set you up with a list of 6 or 8 trapping sets that you could train that would make you look like you were a WC master over the course of a few months, but you have burned so many bridges that I can't imagine that you will ever have effective WC. I could leave this board for 10 years and come back and you will still be looking for the secret ingredient. LOL

Nah, I'll stick with the real stuff that actually works. I'll leave the fantasy trapping stuff to clueless guys like you. You can practice that along with your tape-trained kickboxing.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Nah, I'll stick with the real stuff that actually works. I'll leave the fantasy trapping stuff to clueless guys like you. You can practice that along with your tape-trained kickboxing.
That's because you just don't know what you are doing. You will be posting clips from here to 2050 about effective WC looking for the secret ingredient. It is comical really. Fale, it is obvious that tape-training is all you have ever done. I really question your grappling to be honest. If you actually knew what you were doing, you would not be one this board trying to convince us that you know what you are doing. If you had confidence in your skill you would not have backed down from Goju like you did.

[Knifefighter]

That's because you just don't know what you are doing. You will be posting clips from here to 2050 about effective WC looking for the secret ingredient. It is comical really. Fale, it is obvious that tape-training is all you have ever done. I really question your grappling to be honest.

I'm not looking for any secret WC ingredient. I already know it is not effective unless you are bigger and stronger than your opponent.

[HumbleWCGuy]

I'm not looking for any secret WC ingredient. I already know it is not effective unless you are bigger and stronger than your opponent.

That is a clear sign that you have no F***ing clue about what proper WC is.

[anerlich]

Working at a gas stations, delivering pizzas, and being desk clerk at a hotel aren't jobs that qualify as professional jobs.

TN's a lawyer, I'm a IT professional. I work for a small company now but was an AVP for a large finance company earlier on. Those real enough jobs for you?

No one at work has ever called me out on my posting style on KFO, and if they did I'd first laugh at them and then go to HR and sue their a$$e$ off for harassment.

Your statements in this regard are ridiculous, as well as being unfair to pump jockeys, pizza guys and hotel employees. I wouldn't dial a pizza for a while in case those guys, like your employers, are searching MA forums for posts which violate the corporate culture :rolleyes:

[HumbleWCGuy]

TN's a lawyer, I'm a IT professional. I work for a small company now but was an AVP for a large finance company earlier on. Those real enough jobs for you?

No one at work has ever called me out on my posting style on KFO, and if they did I'd first laugh at them and then go to HR and sue their a$$e$ off for harassment.


You have a naive point of view.

[Knifefighter]

That is a clear sign that you have no F***ing clue about what proper WC is.

LOL @ "proper WC". Of course you have the secret to that, but can't let anyone see. Bwaaahahahahaaha!

[goju]

LOL @ "proper WC". Of course you have the secret to that, but can't let anyone see. Bwaaahahahahaaha!
and then theres others who let us see and it results in wanting to gouge our eyes out:D

[Knifefighter]

You have a naive point of view.

You are more likely to get caught from internal monitoring software installed on your employer's system than you are from posting a video of you or your students fighting.

If you are worried about that stuff, you shouldn't be posting at work. Of course, that just shows further lack of integrity that you've already demonstrated in your posts. In that case, you deserve to get Wiresharked.

[Knifefighter]

This message is hidden because goju is on your idiot troll ignore list.

Bwhaaahaaaahaaa!!!

[goju]

This message is hidden because goju is on your idiot troll ignore list.

Bwhaaahaaaahaaa!!!

how amusing is that someone who claims they come on here to mess around with people and make fun of them happens to be sensitive at the same time


i guess i can expect not to get anymore street fight challenge pms from you now buddy?:D

[HumbleWCGuy]

LOL @ "proper WC". Of course you have the secret to that, but can't let anyone see. Bwaaahahahahaaha!

proper WC is is no mystery. It everywhere but you are to foolish to recognize it. You have probably been shown a lot of it but Fale to recognize its value. If I had to guess, the extent of your trapping knowledge is those JKD traps done out of Dan Chi Sao. If you actually studied WC or sparred half as much as you have been telling people you would be able to pull off some traps that aren't on the JKD list. Not that I want to disparage the JKD trapping as it is fine but it really only consists of 1 or 2 trapping sets that are most effective against McDojo karate.

[Knifefighter]

This message is hidden because goju is on your idiot troll ignore list.

What a great invention the ignore option is. You no longer have to read the adolescent brain-damaged dribble from high school dropouts.

[Knifefighter]

proper WC is is no mystery. It everywhere but you are to foolish to recognize it. You have probably been shown a lot of it but Fale to recognize its value. If I had to guess, the extent of your trapping knowledge is those JKD traps done out of Dan Chi Sao. If you actually studied WC or sparred half as much as you have been telling people you would be able to pull off some traps that aren't on the JKD list. Not that I want to disparage the JKD trapping as it is fine but it really only consists of 1 or 2 trapping sets that are most effective against McDojo karate.

LOL... yeah, you can really see all that WC trapping being done all over the place. You "real WC trapping guys" sure do scare all the real fighters out there. You are definitely dominating all the pro leagues. Oh, wait a minute, you aren't. That's right, your stuff only works on the deadly streets.

[goju]

This message is hidden because goju is on your idiot troll ignore list.

What a great invention the ignore option is. You no longer have to read the adolescent brain-damaged dribble from high school dropouts.

yet you're still carrying on about me

:D

[SAAMAG]

I'm not looking for any secret WC ingredient. I already know it is not effective unless you are bigger and stronger than your opponent.

Ouch.

That could be said of just about any fight, style aside. That's why there are weight classes in fighting sports.

I do agree that wing chun isn't effective in all situations, but then again the same could be said for any other style as well.

[HumbleWCGuy]

LOL... yeah, you can really see all that WC trapping being done all over the place. You "real WC trapping guys" sure do scare all the real fighters out there. You are definitely dominating all the pro leagues. Oh, wait a minute, you aren't. That's right, your stuff only works on the deadly streets.

It's all "real." I am just going on record as saying that you don't know what you are doing which is nothing that anyone with more than a few years of training can easily determine.

I don't know about deadly and dominating but I know that having varied ways of closing the distance makes any fighter a little bit better. Although, it seems that you just get your head lit up no matter how you try to move in so to each his own I guess.

[anerlich]

You have a naive point of view.

And you have the POV of someone who is too much of a pu$$y to put his name to his posts. If someone at your workplace is trawling google or KFO checking out what you are posting, you should find a different workplace, or make sure your "upright specialist" skills :rolleyes: are up to date, because you are being stalked.

You sound like you should be sacked anyway, but for outrageous stupidity rather than any particular statements on KFO.

[anerlich]

All:

Could humblewcguy be Hardwork108? Knucklehead, mcdojo, general inability to understand logic, delusional, ...

Your thoughts?

Personally, Id say no on probabilities, but there are some similarities.

[HumbleWCGuy]

And you have the POV of someone who is too much of a pu$$y to put his name to his posts. If someone at your workplace is trawling google or KFO checking out what you are posting, you should find a different workplace, or make sure your "upright specialist" skills :rolleyes: are up to date, because you are being stalked.

You sound like you should be sacked anyway, but for outrageous stupidity rather than any particular statements on KFO.

At least I am not swinging from the nuts of a man who gets beaten up at smoker competitions. Your problem is that you just don't have any idea about how the world really works. Of course, IT guys are a dime a dozen.

[HumbleWCGuy]

All:

Could humblewcguy be Hardwork108? Knucklehead, mcdojo, general inability to understand logic, delusional, ...

Your thoughts?

Personally, Id say no on probabilities, but there are some similarities.

LOL, so you can't deal with the fact that more than one person thinks that you are a complete and utter fool so you have to create a story to make them all the same person. Now that is funny.

[goju]

i thought we were all alters of uki?:D

[Hardwork108]

All:

Could humblewcguy be Hardwork108? Knucklehead, mcdojo, general inability to understand logic, delusional, ...
That just demonstrate what a delusional world you live in. You and "kung fu clueless" people like you cannot accept the fact that even in these days of your fellow Mckung fu-ists and knucklehead MA-ists, there would be more than one guy disagreeing with you, "so it must be the same guy"....LOL.


The "logic" that you and people like you fail to understand is that you have been taught incomplete Wing Chun.

It seems that you are not alone because even some Yip Man students or so called disciples have suffered the same way. Apparently, YM taught different "versions" of WC to different people. Are there people here naive enough to think that his students learned different but complete versions? Or did YM do what many TCMA masters do and teach the more complete version to a trusted few, perhaps primarily to his SONS???

So do you and people like you think you have seen enough Wing Chun to criticize it the way you do or "improve" it the way you suggest that it has to be "improved"???

Do you realize that there are at least 7 different lineages in Mainland China, and there are other lineages across the Far East, in countries such as Malaysia, Singapore and Taiwan. Perhaps you should send emails to the masters in those countries and suggest your improvements on their Wing Chun. I am sure, they could use the laughs....LOL

Think about that for before you try and see weaknesses in art that you have not practiced properly. Yes, there are Wing Chun lineages that train many striking varieties; stand up grappling and yes, even ground fighting, using this art's principles and concepts. There are lineages that practice proper Iron Palm and body skills. There are WC schools that practice the art in an Internal manner.

The short story is that you and people like Terrence and knifefighter are no kung fu experts. You have no ideal of the dimensions of Wing Chun, its Internals and the variety of technical abilities that the style can teach you. You are just kick boxers and MMA-ists. That is your essence and of course, there is no problem with that. It is your pompous and "all knowing" attitudes that is the problem.

Even if my none WC sifu was reading your "insights" regarding Wing Chun, he would fall off his chair laughing. You guys are just clueless regarding authentic TCMA practice. You get away with your attitudes here because the internet is full of kung fu-tagged MMA-ists, meaning you have "moral" support.


our thoughts?
I believe that you should be the one focusing on your thoughts before you try and come off as a smart @ss.....


Personally, Id say no on probabilities, but there are some similarities.
Personally, I think that you should find an authentic traditional kung fu school and start from scratch!

HW108

[Frost]

That's because you just don't know what you are doing. You will be posting clips from here to 2050 about effective WC looking for the secret ingredient. It is comical really. Fale, it is obvious that tape-training is all you have ever done. I really question your grappling to be honest. If you actually knew what you were doing, you would not be one this board trying to convince us that you know what you are doing. If you had confidence in your skill you would not have backed down from Goju like you did.

You question his grappling knowledge and say all he has done is study from tapes LMAO :eek:, mate you are losing it his BJJ and grappling record and rank is easy to find, as is his dog brother status and MMA record.... where as you don't tell us jack sh*t about yourself, your training or your club... if any one has no confidence its you

[HumbleWCGuy]

You question his grappling knowledge and say all he has done is study from tapes LMAO :eek:, mate you are losing it his BJJ and grappling record and rank is easy to find, as is his dog brother status and MMA record.... where as you don't tell us jack sh*t about yourself, your training or your club... if any one has no confidence its you

If you had more experience you would be able to look at his posts and tell with complete certainty that he has limited knowledge of the upright game. The videos reveal the same story. I am well aware that fale has a Bjj black belt, however, his mma record and videos tell me that he can't apply them well in real situations. Being a dog brother just means that you show up to the gatherings consistently and not much more. If you want to put him on a pedestal, I laughingly invite you to do so. Just remember that ultimately he is a 2-1 fighter at mma smokers.

[Frost]

If you had more experience you would be able to look at his posts and tell with complete certainty that he has limited knowledge of the upright game. The videos reveal the same story. I am well aware that fale has a Bjj black belt, however, his mma record and videos tell me that he can't apply them well in real situations. Being a dog brother just means that you show up to the gatherings consistently and not much more. If you want to put him on a pedestal, I laughingly invite you to do so. Just remember that ultimately he is a 2-1 fighter at mma smokers.

If i had more experience... well lets see i train out of the same gym that paul daley and dan hardy train in, i think i have a little experience in stand up training

No it does not being mean that being a dog brother means alot more than that, it means you have skills and more you have the heart to hang with them, you really should do some research before making statements.

His ground work on the videos is very good, i can judge this because i have grappled for years and competed and have an eye for grappling, what is your grappling back ground to judge his skills from his videos?

[goju]

If i had more experience... well lets see i train out of the same gym that paul daley and dan hardy train in, i think i have a little experience in stand up training

i repeat did you not see his reverse punch comment:D

[Frost]

what did he say, that the hand on the hip punch is useless?

[goju]

what did he say, that the hand on the hip punch is useless?
he thought for one kung fu, karate and tkd guys spend most of their time punching like that

and two he thought thats how we punched when we actually sparred/fought

and to make it worse he really didnt seem to know what the punch even was to begin with

but of course hes knowledgeable about stand up lol

[HumbleWCGuy]

That just demonstrate what a delusional world you live in. You and "kung fu clueless" people like you cannot accept the fact that even in these days of your fellow Mckung fu-ists and knucklehead MA-ists, there would be more than one guy disagreeing with you, "so it must be the same guy"....LOL.


The "logic" that you and people like you fail to understand is that you have been taught incomplete Wing Chun.

It seems that you are not alone because even some Yip Man students or so called disciples have suffered the same way. Apparently, YM taught different "versions" of WC to different people. Are there people here naive enough to think that his students learned different but complete versions? Or did YM do what many TCMA masters do and teach the more complete version to a trusted few, perhaps primarily to his SONS???

So do you and people like you think you have seen enough Wing Chun to criticize it the way you do or "improve" it the way you suggest that it has to be "improved"???

Do you realize that there are at least 7 different lineages in Mainland China, and there are other lineages across the Far East, in countries such as Malaysia, Singapore and Taiwan. Perhaps you should send emails to the masters in those countries and suggest your improvements on their Wing Chun. I am sure, they could use the laughs....LOL

Think about that for before you try and see weaknesses in art that you have not practiced properly. Yes, there are Wing Chun lineages that train many striking varieties; stand up grappling and yes, even ground fighting, using this art's principles and concepts. There are lineages that practice proper Iron Palm and body skills. There are WC schools that practice the art in an Internal manner.

The short story is that you and people like Terrence and knifefighter are no kung fu experts. You have no ideal of the dimensions of Wing Chun, its Internals and the variety of technical abilities that the style can teach you. You are just kick boxers and MMA-ists. That is your essence and of course, there is no problem with that. It is your pompous and "all knowing" attitudes that is the problem.

Even if my none WC sifu was reading your "insights" regarding Wing Chun, he would fall off his chair laughing. You guys are just clueless regarding authentic TCMA practice. You get away with your attitudes here because the internet is full of kung fu-tagged MMA-ists, meaning you have "moral" support.

our thoughts?
I believe that you should be the one focusing on your thoughts before you try and come off as a smart @ss.....


Personally, I think that you should find an authentic traditional kung fu school and start from scratch!

HW108[/QUOTE]

I don't think that I could have said it better. Allow me to recapitulate.

These guys know incomplete and or fraudulent versions of WC and don't have a clue about how to use or innovate WC.

The internet is flooded with morons who don't know what they are doing who flock together for moral support of incorrect conclusions.

They all need to find legitimate TCMA schools and start from scratch. LOL

It could not be any more plainly put. One thing that is worth mention as well is that legitimate traditional training borders on brutal. People who begin over the age of 20 usually can't handle it mentally or physically. The level of precision is high and the margin for error allowed is small. As I see it, what is often accepted as training in the U.S. is basically B.S. irrespective of the art. Little things like not being able to do the splits are just not acceptable in top tier TCMA schools. Some will let you hang around around a be a career white sash other will just kick you out.

I have seen every style of TCMA work when taught properly from WC to Monkey kung fu. The proper way for animal styles to be taught is that the students are selected into them by their attributes and then put through the most brutal conditioning programs imaginable. Then at 25 you are usually washed up (in terms of northern animal styles) as your body is near completely spent.

[Frost]

he thought for one kung fu, karate and tkd guys spend most of their time punching like that

and two he thought thats how we punched when we actually sparred/fought

and to make it worse he really didnt seem to know what the punch even was to begin with

but of course hes knowledgeable about stand up lol

oh lets see. that is how a lot of karate schools and kung fu schools i have see teach new students, walking up and down or in a horse stance throwing punches from the hip... i thought you were mostly trained by your uncle and had not been to many karate schools?

if you don't spar that way why train it is a very good question don't you think, kind of like why train high kicks if all you are going to do is low kicks in sparing...

he has faught full contact stand up, both here and in Japan, that makes him probably more knowledgeable than alot here on what does and does not work

[Dragonzbane76]

That just demonstrate what a delusional world you live in. You and "kung fu clueless" people like you cannot accept the fact that even in these days of your fellow Mckung fu-ists and knucklehead MA-ists, there would be more than one guy disagreeing with you, "so it must be the same guy"....LOL.


The "logic" that you and people like you fail to understand is that you have been taught incomplete Wing Chun.

LOL....coming from the man who thinks everyone is dave ross. LOL...

[goju]

oh lets see. that is how a lot of karate schools and kung fu schools i have see teach new students, walking up and down or in a horse stance throwing punches from the hip... i thought you were mostly trained by your uncle and had not been to many karate schools?

if you don't spar that way why train it is a very good question don't you think, kind of like why train high kicks if all you are going to do is low kicks in sparing...

he has faught full contact stand up, both here and in Japan, that makes him probably more knowledgeable than alot here on what does and does not work

yes and what he seems to not notice is those line drills from punching with the hip are only a warm up excercise and nothing more:D

i was taught to punch with my hands up for the majority of practice time and i recently had the oppurtunity to ask my uncle when i saw him if they way he taught me was any different than how he was taught( he learned at a traditional school)
he said no :D

as i told dale lyoto does kata. one and two step sparring etc etc with his hands chamberd it doesnt seem to hurt him HOWEVER and this is the big point he does not spend THE MAJORITY of his time doing this and this is because any tma school worth its weight does not make their students waste hours doing this

actually no it doesnt when you run around trying to talk about arts you clearly have not studied it generally hurts your credibility

[HumbleWCGuy]

If i had more experience... well lets see i train out of the same gym that paul daley and dan hardy train in, i think i have a little experience in stand up training

Meaningless



No it does not being mean that being a dog brother means alot more than that, it means you have skills and more you have the heart to hang with them, you really should do some research before making statements.

Written rules and what is done in practice are two different things. I have read the statements on the Dog Brothers website. Now if we go to case law, the way the rule is applied. The skill level required is not what you would think. Seriously, look at Dale.


His ground work on the videos is very good, i can judge this because i have grappled for years and competed and have an eye for grappling, what is your grappling back ground to judge his skills from his videos?

Yup Dale looks GREAT! on the ground until he gets punched in the face hence the 2-1 record. It really just boils down to a champion bjj black belt getting choked out by some garage trainer named Mike Dixon and going to a decision with another journeyman mma fighter http://www.sherdog.com/fighter/Dale-Frank-4206.

[t_niehoff]

Putting aside all the personal attacks, and the question of "how good" any particular person is -- which as I've tried to point out doesn't matter -- the issue here is a simple one: what is the best, most effective way to train to develop fighting skill?

If we look at fighting as we do any other sport or athletic activity (since the mechanism or process for the development of physical skill is the same), then we can see that this is done by looking at the elite since what they are doing in their training has made them elite. You don't learn howto do something well by looking to people who don't do it or don't do it well.

Now, this is not to say that we can all duplicate the amount or intensity the elite put into their training, but we can do the same things they do, use the same process, mirroring their training at our own level. This is precisely what people do in athletics -- amatuer boxers train like the pro's, following the same training process, just not at the same level of intentiy. Same with wrestlers and all other athletes. The level of intensity of their training changes as they develop, it progressively gets more intense, to develop higher level of skills. Yet, from beginners to the elite, they are all doing pretty much the same fundamental things. By looking not to individual cases but across the population of the elite, we can by seeing what they are doing in common, what it is that produces their results.

When people suggest doing things other than what these elite - and other proven, good fighters - do, the issue then becomes one of evidence. Where is the evidence that training this "other way" produces good results?

[m1k3]

HWC, bad poster, bad poster!

I spent time yesterday showing you how to properly troll on the internetz. I took your own words, changed them a little to come up with something both humorous and insulting. Because it was a GOOD troll you took the bait and posted a rant in response which gave me the opportunity to mock you again by explaining my post to you as if you were too dim to understand it.

Now, I sign on this morning to find you continuing to post in your same old "you fail moron" and whiny emo style.

To be a good troll you need to be able to use others peoples words, intentionally misunderstood in a humorous fashion, to make them look bad. Or you need to take a dominate characteristic and exaggerate it, again humorously, to make your point.

Obviously I am dealing with a slow learner so I hope you appreciate the time I am spending on you, trying to help you improve your game.

You do notice I am not making the same effort with GOJU as it would only be wasted. He would simply claim his uncle has taught him the real internetz and that if you would just travel to his house he would show you his awesome trolling skillz.

Now spend a little time in preparing your thoughts and you too can become internetz awesome and others here will forget about your lack of fighting skillz.

Peace :)

[goju]

HWC, bad poster, bad poster!

I spent time yesterday showing you how to properly troll on the internetz. I took your own words, changed them a little to come up with something both humorous and insulting. Because it was a GOOD troll you took the bait and posted a rant in response which gave me the opportunity to mock you again by explaining my post to you as if you were too dim to understand it.

Now, I sign on this morning to find you continuing to post in your same old "you fail moron" and whiny emo style.

To be a good troll you need to be able to use others peoples words, intentionally misunderstood in a humorous fashion, to make them look bad. Or you need to take a dominate characteristic and exaggerate it, again humorously, to make your point.

Obviously I am dealing with a slow learner so I hope you appreciate the time I am spending on you, trying to help you improve your game.

You do notice I am not making the same effort with GOJU as it would only be wasted. He would simply claim his uncle has taught him the real internetz and that if you would just travel to his house he would show you his awesome trolling skillz.

Now spend a little time in preparing your thoughts and you too can become internetz awesome and others here will forget about your lack of fighting skillz.

Peace :)

why are you trying to drag me into your arguement with him i really could care less
about it

[m1k3]

why are you trying to drag me into your arguement with him i really could care less
about it

See, this is exactly why I am not spending anytime trying to educate GOJU on good trolling technique.

[goju]

He would simply claim his uncle has taught him the real internetz and that if you would just travel to his house he would show you his awesome trolling skillz.

i know youre making fun but

m1k3's about me page:

"and working some wing chun on my own."



as they say those who live in glass houses......:D:p

[m1k3]

i know youre making fun but

m1k3's about me page:

"and working some wing chun on my own."



as they say those who live in glass houses......:D:p

Very good, you did some research. Maybe you aren't as dim as HumbleWC said in his pm's to me.

The problem is that you are trying to apply my lack of WC knowledge against my trolling skillz.

As such you fail again, just not as badly. Keep up the good work.

BTW I have had about 9 months of wc training ending 2007 when I switched to BJJ.

[goju]

Very good, you did some research. Maybe you aren't as dim as HumbleWC said in his pm's to me.

The problem is that you are trying to apply my lack of WC knowledge against my trolling skillz.

As such you fail again, just not as badly. Keep up the good work.

BTW I have had about 9 months of wc training ending 2007 when I switched to BJJ.
http://upload.na.aiononline.com/file/AION/download/200909287f267b41-123fdd92ef6-5315

again i have no interest in your feud with hardwork i actually dont even know what you two are carrying on about as i havent read it so dont drag me into it kay?:D

[HumbleWCGuy]

Putting aside all the personal attacks, and the question of "how good" any particular person is -- which as I've tried to point out doesn't matter -- the issue here is a simple one: what is the best, most effective way to train to develop fighting skill?

If we look at fighting as we do any other sport or athletic activity (since the mechanism or process for the development of physical skill is the same), then we can see that this is done by looking at the elite since what they are doing in their training has made them elite. You don't learn howto do something well by looking to people who don't do it or don't do it well.

Now, this is not to say that we can all duplicate the amount or intensity the elite put into their training, but we can do the same things they do, use the same process, mirroring their training at our own level. This is precisely what people do in athletics -- amatuer boxers train like the pro's, following the same training process, just not at the same level of intentiy. Same with wrestlers and all other athletes. The level of intensity of their training changes as they develop, it progressively gets more intense, to develop higher level of skills. Yet, from beginners to the elite, they are all doing pretty much the same fundamental things. By looking not to individual cases but across the population of the elite, we can by seeing what they are doing in common, what it is that produces their results.

When people suggest doing things other than what these elite - and other proven, good fighters - do, the issue then becomes one of evidence. Where is the evidence that training this "other way" produces good results?

I am not against all the modern attribute training. Only a complete fool would suggest otherwise. I am just in favor of starting people out a bit slower so that they can develop a wider range of skills. One the extreme end, I see guys walk into a MT school and day one they are going through brutal warm ups, drilling the bags and sparring without much coaching and the coaching that they receive isn't taken in because they are too overwhelmed physically. Some schools offer boxing 101, MT for beginners it gives people a chance to learn proper mechanics, stretching, how to train. TMA training can serve the same purpose as I believe that most of the training is geared towards beginners. However, that style of training will NOT allow one to reach their ultimate goal of becoming a competent fighter. I believe that this is also a slightly slower process towards effectiveness but it gives people a higher ceiling of effectiveness because they have had the opportunity to hone a greater repertoire while not under heavy pressure so to speak.

[t_niehoff]

I am not against all the modern attribute training. Only a complete fool would suggest otherwise.


I don't know why you call it "modern attribute training" -- since it isn't about developing attributes but skills (and attributes are a part of skill).



I am just in favor of starting people out a bit slower so that they can develop a wider range of skills. One the extreme end, I see guys walk into a MT school and day one they are going through brutal warm ups, drilling the bags and sparring without much coaching and the coaching that they receive isn't taken in because they are too overwhelmed physically. Some schools offer boxing 101, MT for beginners it gives people a chance to learn proper mechanics, stretching, how to train.


My experience is that good schools or gyms don't just throw people into the deep end of the pool. If they do, that's not a reflection on the modern training method but on a particular school. The people I've cross-trained with all have focused heavily on good, sound fundamentals that were trained at an appropriate level.



TMA training can serve the same purpose as I believe that most of the training is geared towards beginners. However, that style of training will NOT allow one to reach their ultimate goal of becoming a competent fighter. I believe that this is also a slightly slower process towards effectiveness but it gives people a higher ceiling of effectiveness because they have had the opportunity to hone a greater repertoire while not under heavy pressure so to speak.

The point I and others have made is that there is a process by which we best learn and develop dynamic, open skills (like those used in the fighting arts). That process has been identified, studied, verified, etc. It's used by all athletes, including the elite. Anyone who believes they have a "better" way of training or some"improvement" in that training methodolgy, has the burden of proof (that your way is better than what the elite do).

[HumbleWCGuy]

The point I and others have made is that there is a process by which we best learn and develop dynamic, open skills (like those used in the fighting arts). That process has been identified, studied, verified, etc. It's used by all athletes, including the elite. Anyone who believes they have a "better" way of training or some"improvement" in that training methodolgy, has the burden of proof (that your way is better than what the elite do).

In my case I am suggesting that we consider what the elite did throughout the life-cycle of their training and not just a snapshot when they are at the peek of their career. Although, I think that we mostly agree.

[t_niehoff]

In my case I am suggesting that we consider what the elite did throughout the life-cycle of their training and not just a snapshot when they are at the peek of their career. Although, I think that we mostly agree.

I agree. As I mentioned previously, amatuer boxers and wrestlers pretty much train the same way (same methodology) as the elite, just at a lower level of intensity. And that the intensity of their training increases over time corresponding to their level of development at that particular moment. At any level I think all good athletes and coaches/trainers stress sound, solid fundamentals.

[m1k3]

In my case I am suggesting that we consider what the elite did throughout the life-cycle of their training and not just a snapshot when they are at the peek of their career. Although, I think that we mostly agree.

On a serious note. I don't think the life-cycle of their training paradigm works. Too often the initial entrance into martial arts is during childhood and schools are selected by parents based on coast, convenience and driving time.
These early classes may lead to a career or passion for martial arts but in no way should their training methodology be held up as example of how to train.
In addition many of today’s top competitors have wrestling as their initial background. Wrestling teaches fundamentals as well as sparring and competition even at an early age. I started my wrestling training in Jr. High and my 5 year old grandson is already training and competing. If I am allowed to brag he has won 2 gold medals in local tournaments.

[Frost]

On a serious note. I don't think the life-cycle of their training paradigm works. Too often the initial entrance into martial arts is during childhood and schools are selected by parents based on coast, convenience and driving time.
These early classes may lead to a career or passion for martial arts but in no way should their training methodology be held up as example of how to train.
In addition many of today’s top competitors have wrestling as their initial background. Wrestling teaches fundamentals as well as sparring and competition even at an early age. I started my wrestling training in Jr. High and my 5 year old grandson is already training and competing. If I am allowed to brag he has won 2 gold medals in local tournaments.

don't bother he simply ignores points like this that does not agree with his theory. i pointed out that two of the best strikers ever, hoost and Remi never went near traditional martials arts, neither did the Rua brothers or the axe murderer and he didn't even respond th this because he can't, it blows his theory out of the waterthis..... but hey they all played soccer as kids maybe thats the reason they are such good fighters:D

[Knifefighter]

Yup Dale looks GREAT! on the ground until he gets punched in the face hence the 2-1 record. It really just boils down to a champion bjj black belt getting choked out by some garage trainer named Mike Dixon and going to a decision with another journeyman mma fighter http://www.sherdog.com/fighter/Dale-Frank-4206.

Actually, that was not my record. I was 7-3 in MMA. Remember, I was fighting bareknuckle MMA before it was legal here and those records were not recorded.

However, lets assume that by some incomprehensible fluke, you are right for the only post you have ever been right on in your life and that my record was 2 -1. Do you know how old I was when I was fighting MMA? Do you know how old my opponents were?

I'd say someone fighting and winning even a couple of pro mma in his 40's against guys in their 20's probably knows a lot more than the pretend, theoretical non-fighter who sits in his little training studio and pontificates about the REAL TMA, meanwhile hiding behind his "big, important, corporate job."

The fact is, you got your a$$ handed to you in the only "kickboxing" match you ever had and have been rationalizing that crappy performance ever since by trying to pretend you have since perfected your "real" TMA combined with what you think you have learned by watching Muay Thai tapes.

[Frost]

Meaningless].

you said if i have more expereince with stand up then i would see your point, i pointed out my stand up was quite experienced as i come from the same gym as some very good fighters and that is meaningless:confused:



Written rules and what is done in practice are two different things. I have read the statements on the Dog Brothers website. Now if we go to case law, the way the rule is applied. The skill level required is not what you would think. Seriously, look at Dale. ].

i did look at Dale and judged his weapons stuff as good, so does marc deney are you saying you are better at judging weapons than he is?



Yup Dale looks GREAT! on the ground until he gets punched in the face hence the 2-1 record. It really just boils down to a champion bjj black belt getting choked out by some garage trainer named Mike Dixon and going to a decision with another journeyman mma fighter http://www.sherdog.com/fighter/Dale-Frank-4206.


they only list a few of his fights you can see on his video more than just 2 fights, what grappling expereince have you had to judge how good he is as a grappler in MMA or BJJ, and what MMA fighters have you competed against be able to judge Dales and his opponents skill levels?

[Knifefighter]

I am not against all the modern attribute training. Only a complete fool would suggest otherwise. I am just in favor of starting people out a bit slower so that they can develop a wider range of skills. One the extreme end, I see guys walk into a MT school and day one they are going through brutal warm ups, drilling the bags and sparring without much coaching and the coaching that they receive isn't taken in because they are too overwhelmed physically. Some schools offer boxing 101, MT for beginners it gives people a chance to learn proper mechanics, stretching, how to train. TMA training can serve the same purpose as I believe that most of the training is geared towards beginners. However, that style of training will NOT allow one to reach their ultimate goal of becoming a competent fighter. I believe that this is also a slightly slower process towards effectiveness but it gives people a higher ceiling of effectiveness because they have had the opportunity to hone a greater repertoire while not under heavy pressure so to speak.

Should beginners start out slow? Of course they should. Progression is one of the fundamental principles of any kind of human performance training. However, they should start out learning the same movements in the same manner they will be using in the actual activities. The only difference will be duration and intensity.

[goju]

you said if i have more expereince with stand up then i would see your point, i pointed out my stand up was quite experienced as i come from the same gym as some very good fighters and that is meaningless:confused:

well my gym i was at had duane ludwig and shane carwin but that doesnt give me or my abilities any legitamacy i suppose thats what he means

[Frost]

yes and what he seems to not notice is those line drills from punching with the hip are only a warm up excercise and nothing more:D

i was taught to punch with my hands up for the majority of practice time and i recently had the oppurtunity to ask my uncle when i saw him if they way he taught me was any different than how he was taught( he learned at a traditional school)
he said no :D

as i told dale lyoto does kata. one and two step sparring etc etc with his hands chamberd it doesnt seem to hurt him HOWEVER and this is the big point he does not spend THE MAJORITY of his time doing this and this is because any tma school worth its weight does not make their students waste hours doing this

actually no it doesnt when you run around trying to talk about arts you clearly have not studied it generally hurts your credibility

so your expereince in your 20 years on this earth tells you one thing, as does your uncles, mine and dales tells us something different, i have lost count of the schools i have seen teach the chambered walk over and over.... and i have done chinese japanes and korean arts. And it is worthless even as a warm up if you are not going to actually use it in a fight, the same with the hands down sparring, why practise it if you won't use it ?

hurts your credibilty talking about arts you know nothing about hmm..... maybe you should think about that one for a bit.....:D

[Frost]

well my gym i was at had duane ludwig and shane carwin but that doesnt give me or my abilities any legitamacy i suppose thats what he means

how long where you there though, weeks months or years? and how often were they there? and he said nothing about skills he said just said experience and training week in and week out with pro fighters, watching, training and talking with them over years gives me some expereince and knowledge even if i suck as a fighter :D

[goju]

so your expereince in your 20 years on this earth tells you one thing, as does your uncles, mine and dales tells us something different, i have lost count of the schools i have seen teach the chambered walk over and over.... and i have done chinese japanes and korean arts. And it is worthless even as a warm up if you are not going to actually use it in a fight, the same with the hands down sparring, why practise it if you won't use it ?

hurts your credibilty talking about arts you know nothing about hmm..... maybe you should think about that one for a bit.....:D

Well ive met quite a few karateka who were trained like me( to keep their hands up during most of the training) so i would say my experience was nothing unique or special if anything it seemed to be rather normal training.

if all a dojo is doing is making their students do endless line drills for the majority of the time then i can quote general chois advice he gave to people with bad tkd

"ask your teacher for your money back":D

why should i think about that being that i was oen of the only ones being rational in your catch thread proves im that way:p

[Frost]

Well ive met quite a few karateka who were trained like me( to keep their hands up during most of the training) so i would say my experience was nothing unique or special if anything it seemed to be rather normal training.

if all a dojo is doing is making their students do endless line drills for the majority of the time then i can quote general chois advice he gave to people with bad tkd

"ask your teacher for your money back":D

why should i think about that being that i was oen of the only ones being rational in your catch thread proves im that way:p

you are comentating on that thread about grappling, which apart from a few intro bjj classes and a couple of judo classes you know nothing about... and i can't for the life of me remember what wing chun or kung fu in general you hve done :)

[goju]

how long where you there though, weeks months or years? and how often were they there? and he said nothing about skills he said just said experience and training week in and week out with pro fighters, watching, training and talking with them over years gives me some expereince and knowledge even if i suck as a fighter :D

year and a half

though i forgot to ask are you a part of those fighters camps?

that would obviously change things

but i think he may have meant even in good gyms that turn out fighters there are always lousy students or guys who go there just to say they train at place some famous athlete does to make it seem like they are a bad ass

[goju]

you are comentating on that thread about grappling, which apart from a few intro bjj classes and a couple of judo classes you know nothing about... and i can't for the life of me remember what wing chun or kung fu in general you hve done :)

ive only messed around with a wc guy from here and picked up a bit ill admit that and alwayshave

yes but i am not saying one grappling style is better than the other or commenting on how to do this technique or hold or choke etc etc

ive said numerous times im way behind on my ground stuff im not embarassed to admit it

[Frost]

year and a half

though i forgot to ask are you a part of those fighters camps?

that would obviously change things

but i think he may have meant even in good gyms that turn out fighters there are always lousy students or guys who go there just to say they train at place some famous athlete does to make it seem like they are a bad ass

He said nothing about my fighting skill he said if i had more expereince, i think my training at the same gym as those guys does give me that expereince don't you agree? I have witnesed Dan Hardys fight prep at our gym when he comes back here, and over the years i have been a sparring partner tp him, Andre Winner, Paul Daley and a few others, mostly in the grappling area as thats what i specialize on these days, that does not mean i have not sparred stand up with them, or watched there fight prep . I have also helped visitng heavy weights fighters prep for fights in the UKs mostly big polish guys getting ready for their first comps, i also was a sparring partner to a local kick boxer who just one a title belt. for how good a student i am i was part of the gyms grappling team for a few years and won a few comps for them, enough to be voted the clubs grappler of the year in 2005.

[goju]

He said nothing about my fighting skill he said if i had more expereince, i think my training at the same gym as those guys does give me that expereince don't you agree? I have witnesed Dan Hardys fight prep at our gym when he comes back here, and over the years i have been a sparring partner tp him, Andre Winner, Paul Daley and a few others, mostly in the grappling area as thats what i specialize on these days, that does not mean i have not sparred stand up with them, or watched there fight prep . I have also helped visitng heavy weights fighters prep for fights in the UKs mostly big polish guys getting ready for their first comps, i also was a sparring partner to a local kick boxer who just one a title belt. for how good a student i am i was part of the gyms grappling team for a few years and won a few comps for them, enough to be voted the clubs grappler of the year in 2005.

ah i see then that certainly is different cool:D

[Frost]

ah i see then that certainly is different cool:D

None of that actually means much apart from i know exactly how much i suck, i weigh 105kg getting thrown around by guys weighting around 70kg is soul destroying, but i think it does mean i have a little expereince in being able to judge Dales skills.

[goju]

None of that actually means much apart from i know exactly how much i suck, i weigh 105kg getting thrown around by guys weighting around 70kg is soul destroying, but i think it does mean i have a little expereince in being able to judge Dales skills.

lol try getting your ass kicked standing up by a guy who weighs 160 and is 5 foot seven when your 230 pounds and 6 foot 2!

happened to me sparring the little *******

[HumbleWCGuy]

Should beginners start out slow? Of course they should. Progression is one of the fundamental principles of any kind of human performance training. However, they should start out learning the same movements in the same manner they will be using in the actual activities. The only difference will be duration and intensity.

I would agree for the most part. I would only add that there are some beginner's activities that people can perform that are useful that won't necessarily do much for an advanced player. Forms and chi sao might be useful to beginners.

[Knifefighter]

I would agree for the most part. I would only add that there are some beginner's activities that people can perform that are useful that won't necessarily do much for an advanced player. Forms and chi sao might be useful to beginners.

No, they are counter-productive. They teach skills that then have to be re-learned when sparring and full-contact fighting begin. People who start out like this and then become good, do so DESPITE learning these things in the beginning.

[HumbleWCGuy]

No, they are counter-productive. They teach skills that then have to be re-learned when sparring and full-contact fighting begin. People who start out like this and then become good, do so DESPITE learning these things in the beginning.

I disagree about the WC forms. Weapons forms are basically crap though because by the time that you get to them in WC you have some time in. Chi Sao, I could take it or leave it. Several non-WC instructors have told me that the class runs much more smoothly if they teach SLT to the students. I really like the forms when teaching children. You can teach breathing in other ways but forms are a good place to do it as well in my humble opinion of course.

[m1k3]

Interesting point, but couldn't you teach the same things with drills? Once comfortable with drills progress to pad work and shadow boxing.

One of the things I dislike about forms is they teach you do movements in a predictable order. Whereas shadow boxing, at least if you have a good coach, is to teach you NOT to be predictable.

[t_niehoff]

No, they are counter-productive. They teach skills that then have to be re-learned when sparring and full-contact fighting begin. People who start out like this and then become good, do so DESPITE learning these things in the beginning.

Exactly.

Why do people continue to cling to out-moded ways of learning and poor ways of developing skills when we know more today about how to best learn and develop skill?

[YungChun]

No, they are counter-productive. They teach skills that then have to be re-learned when sparring and full-contact fighting begin. People who start out like this and then become good, do so DESPITE learning these things in the beginning.

The form's tools are the art's tools and textbook... The tactics/moves in ChiSao are the art's tactics and moves..

The same moves, mechanics, tools, etc are intended to be used in application..

Classical learning is misunderstood.. Most train Wing Chun Do not Wing Chun Kuen..

It's the transitioning to application and fighting that is often completely skipped. If more quality classical schools began targeting some kind of competitive full contact venues things might change.....

WCK is what it is...a style of fighting or an "art form" of fighting.. Depends on the training focus..

Folks also forget completely the culture from where it came and who and how it was intended to be used.. You used the knives when the $hit hit the fan.. Most of the folks you would fight hand to hand did a style much more similar to WCK, a close range bridge happy style, like Mantis, Southern White Crane, etc...

Dale, if you were fighting for your life with two REAL WCK "knives". I assume you know them, against all manner of other weapons how would you use them?

http://www.wushudirect.co.uk/acatalog/wing_chun_knifes.jpg

Like a boxer, or *more* like a WCKer...or something else? Would it resemble Dog Bros matches or not? What would be your tactics with such tools?

[m1k3]

Are you saying that WC is first a weapons system(knives) and then an open hand system?

[YungChun]

Are you saying that WC is first a weapons system(knives) and then an open hand system?

Yes.

In terms of the purpose of the art as a battle field art to originally, if I am not mistaken, defend against the Manchu.. If you had the knives you are going to use them (to protect your life) they were the mainstay of WCK and all the training acts as a base for them.

Not to say it wasn't for hand to hand as well, you could become separated from your knives, sure, also used for assassin work, challenge matches, etc, or in the case of more modern times used as a base for Internet combat.. LOL

[m1k3]

Thanks for the reply, you are the second person I have heard that from. He was Moy Yat also.

If could answer another questin for me, why don't they train the knives first? It seems backwards to spend a lot of time on the h2h first and then train the knives.

[YungChun]

Thanks for the reply, you are the second person I have heard that from. He was Moy Yat also.

If could answer another questin for me, why don't they train the knives first? It seems backwards to spend a lot of time on the h2h first and then train the knives.

You'd have to check with the WCK historians for a good understanding...

As far as I know...

It is part of the Shaolin influence to teach starting with no weapons--empty hands.. Then work up to weapons at higher levels of training. With a progression of force concept, some use such things today, called the Force Continuum..

Some classical weapons arts just had mainly forms as I recall.. Then you just go fight to the death.. Those who survive, survive.. The WCK way seems quite deep comparatively..

Of course it would be real easy to get killed training hard with real knives, which are really two short swords..

And of course in more modern times the emphasis has changed, which sucks because now we can't walk around with those cool knives strapped to our waist.. :)

[t_niehoff]

It's the transitioning to application and fighting that is often completely skipped.

Therein lies the problem -- there SHOULD be no "transitioning". The fact that you need to "transition" indicates that you are training ineffectively (learning or practicing one thing to then do something else). If you learn X just as you will do it in fighting, then practice X just like you will in fighting, then do X in fighting just as you learned and practiced it, there is no "transitioning".

[t_niehoff]

Yes.

In terms of the purpose of the art as a battle field art to originally, if I am not mistaken, defend against the Manchu.. If you had the knives you are going to use them (to protect your life) they were the mainstay of WCK and all the training acts as a base for them.

Not to say it wasn't for hand to hand as well, you could become separated from your knives, sure, also used for assassin work, challenge matches, etc, or in the case of more modern times used as a base for Internet combat.. LOL

Battlefield art! LOL! The stories people dream up.

[YungChun]

Therein lies the problem -- there SHOULD be no "transitioning". The fact that you need to "transition" indicates that you are training ineffectively (learning or practicing one thing to then do something else).


Bull Niehoff it means transitioning from basic training to fight training, just like they do at my local gym and just like you said somewhere else on this board..

First you introduce the tools, tactics, methods, THEN you have them spar. And in the case of WCK there is a comprehensive set of steps to cover first.

You said anyone can teach the system, but now you say apparently that the system, (that training) is the problem... On the one hand this and on the other hand that and blah, blah, blah...

[YungChun]

Battlefield art! LOL! The stories people dream up.


Really, so I suppose it was *created* for little Tommy, oh I mean little Ping to fend off the school bullies way back then huh, with the pole and knives? Right!

Not for warfare, no of course not--they just gave out the best weapons/training they had for $hits and giggles, right? right!


Okay, more BS direct from the **** factory...

Why not tell us EXACTLY what YOU think Shaolin styles were created for..if not for war/combat?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Shaolin styles?
There's a can of worms !!
LOL !

Have you read Brain Kennedy's work or Meir's ?

[t_niehoff]

Why not tell us EXACTLY what YOU think Shaolin styles were created for..if not for war/combat?

The "Shaolin" styles didn't come from Shaolin, but from various individuals that created origin myths attributing their art to Shaolin (for various reasons). WCK was developed in the early to mid-1800s on the Red Boats by various persons associated with it.

[YungChun]

The "Shaolin" styles didn't come from Shaolin, but from various individuals that created origin myths attributing their art to Shaolin (for various reasons). WCK was developed in the early to mid-1800s on the Red Boats by various persons associated with it.

Dodge

I asked WHAT they were created for.......... if not for combat/war....

[sanjuro_ronin]

Dodge

I asked WHAT they were created for.......... if not for combat/war....

The staff arts, which shaolin was famed for, were used to protect the monestary so yes, they were created for combat, but not warfare.
two different things.

[YungChun]

The staff arts, which shaolin was famed for, were used to protect the monestary so yes, they were created for combat, but not warfare.
two different things.

I never claimed to be a historian on the matter, in fact I claimed not to be..

But according to "what's his name", they weren't from Shaolin so why would there be a connection to same?

Nevertheless these same tools and methods must have seen war...no?

If not what did?

[sanjuro_ronin]

I never claimed to be a historian on the matter, in fact I claimed not to be..

But according to "what's his name", they weren't from Shaolin so why would there be a connection to same?

Nevertheless these same tools and methods must have seen war...no?

If not what did?

I think that the some systems COULD have one time or another been used by soldiers, this is true as for as conjecture goes, but the moment they became civilian arts that changed dramatically.
WC may have indeed been a "blade system" that became an empty hand system, it make a lot of sense to "control and stab" and to use speed over "power" when you have a blade, especially the short swords.

[YungChun]

to use speed over "power" when you have a blade, especially the short swords.

Just to be clear.. The WCK I learned emphasizes position and timing over strength and speed...

[sanjuro_ronin]

Just to be clear.. The WCK I learned emphasizes position and timing over strength and speed...

Even better.

[Knifefighter]

I disagree about the WC forms. Weapons forms are basically crap though because by the time that you get to them in WC you have some time in. Chi Sao, I could take it or leave it. Several non-WC instructors have told me that the class runs much more smoothly if they teach SLT to the students. I really like the forms when teaching children. You can teach breathing in other ways but forms are a good place to do it as well in my humble opinion of course.

Like usual, you have it backwards. If you were going to pick the most functional of the two, chi sao would be much more functional than SLT. At least with chi sao, you have person to person contact and some form of resistance. Chi sao has 10 times more specificity than does SLT.

If you had even an ounce of basic human athletic performance training knowledge, you would have know that.

[Knifefighter]

Dale, if you were fighting for your life with two REAL WCK "knives". I assume you know them, against all manner of other weapons how would you use them?

http://www.wushudirect.co.uk/acatalog/wing_chun_knifes.jpg

Like a boxer, or *more* like a WCKer...or something else? Would it resemble Dog Bros matches or not? What would be your tactics with such tools?

I've mentioned this before... I've use WC "empty-handed" techniques with the knives in the past. I believe they work pretty well with a blade of 8" or less. The WC blades, however, need to be wielded more like a sword.

[David Jamieson]

I've mentioned this before... I've use WC "empty-handed" techniques with the knives in the past. I believe they work pretty well with a blade of 8" or less. The WC blades, however, need to be wielded more like a sword.

actually, butterfly knives are unique and more cleaver like in how they work.

the original wu dip do are butcher knives really.

the wc ones can be pointier and not having the rounded tip at all.
so, it would accomodate stabbing more.

mother son techs in wu dip do tend to be chop/chop deflect/chop deflect/deflect

wc blade shae is different depending on the wc school too.

Sil Lum style wu dip do are the same as those depicted in teh picture withe the rounded tip.

[anerlich]

LOL, so you can't deal with the fact that more than one person thinks that you are a complete and utter fool

If you can handle the fact that >1 person thinks you are an utter fool, good for you. You should be proud of the abilities you have, since they are so few.

Obviously you've had no choice other than to deal with that, based on the responses to your posts and extrapolating that out to the wider populace..

[YungChun]

One of the things I dislike about forms is they teach you do movements in a predictable order. Whereas shadow boxing, at least if you have a good coach, is to teach you NOT to be predictable.

Actually, as I was taught..

The moves in the forms are supposed to be essentially random.. IOW, one move is not intended to be part of some combination...like A,B,C.. . Rather in most cases, you have the form saying, something like, here is tool A... It moves like this, this is tool B, it moves like this.. Sometimes you have two moves that may go together, so the form is saying here is action A, it is often followed by, or changes into action B... However, there are no "combos" in the forms, and if you look at SLT, it clearly is not a "simulated fight" more like a catalog of tools and tactics.. The intent then to specifically not teach patterns, but rather tools and tactics that can go together in whatever way is needed.

Then ChiSao is where the student begins to learn how to apply those tools, not in some preordained pattern but rather in whatever way is needed to adapt to his partner.

So, we teach no patterns ideally, because all fixed patterns are dead and cannot adapt... (sounds familiar--no?)