3 section wall bag - any safety issues?

[monkeyfoot]

Hello peeps

I just got hold of a wall bag and wanted to start encorporating it into my training. I have filled the top section with chickpeas, middle with sand, and the bottom with chickpeas also.

I wanted to know if there are any safety issues similar to iron palm training...is the wall bag inherently the same thing as iron palm? Should I use jow on my hands before and after using it? I'm a product designer so need to keep my hands in working condition so I can continue to be able to sketch/draw :)

So yea, just looking for some info

Cheers

Craig

[mooyingmantis]

Craig,
If you are new to hand training, I would suggest sand in each bag and work up to beans. Dit da jow is also a good idea. Safety first!
With hand conditioning, slow is best in the long run.
If your hands are important for your work, as mine are for my work in the medical field, take the least risk possible with them.

Richard

[David Jamieson]

Just to confuse things for you, I would suggest you do NOT use sand at all, it compacts to a concretion and is not good for conditioning hands because it is no longer movable at that point.

fill them all with beans.
use them til teh beans are dust.
then fill them with smooth small river pebbles
use them until those are dust
fill them with bb's or iron shot afetr lining the bag with leather to prevent inhalation of metal dust.

bang away.

[mooyingmantis]

Just to confuse things for you, I would suggest you do NOT use sand at all, it compacts to a concretion and is not good for conditioning hands because it is no longer movable at that point.

fill them all with beans.
use them til teh beans are dust.
then fill them with smooth small river pebbles
use them until those are dust
fill them with bb's or iron shot afetr lining the bag with leather to prevent inhalation of metal dust.

bang away.

The above advice is a nearly foolproof way of injuring your hands. :eek:

When the sand in the sandbags becomes hard simply massage the sandbags to break up the sand.

Condition the hands with sand for a few months before attempting beans. Rushing to beans in a hanging bag will certainly injure your hands.
If I remember correctly, Gene or Gino can correct me if I am wrong, the Ku Yu Cheong lineage of iron palm recommends at least 3 months of practice with sand before changing to beans.

NEVER use iron shot! Though bbs are fine during the final stages of iron palm training. Again, if memory serves me right, bbs are not recommended till after a few years of bean training in the Ku Yu Cheong lineage.

BTW, Ku Yu Cheong was once of the most famous iron palm experts of modern times. So, I'll take their methods.

Richard

[monkeyfoot]

Iron Shot!!! You getting me back David for the so-called 'racist thread' I posted a few months back :D

Anyways thanks guys for the info, i've never done any hand conditioning before so I'm wanting to get this right.

So a 3 section bag is inherently the same thing as iron palm training...just uses the fits instead.

I understand the point about sand compacting to concretion, but then as MYM says, I could work the sand back loose again.

The chick peas are too painful ATM...I might fill it with black beans or corn, that might be a better start :)

In terms of jow, im just using LKWs green 'Wiset Oil' along with his Dit Da Jow. Will this be sufficient? Is it a case of soaking the hands in a solution or simply massaging it into the knuckles etc before and after.

Also I vaguely remember people on an iron palm thread mentioned about relaxing the hand when striking the ironpalm pack...I'm guessing this doesn't apply to the 3 section bag and I can just go at the thing?

I'm a total noob to this sort of training, so I apologise for asking what may seem to be obvious questions!

cheers guys

Craig

[mooyingmantis]

Craig,
Massaging the jow in before and after is the method I would suggest. It is also best to know if the jow you are using was meant to be used hot or cold. Different formulas require different uses.
I have never used LKW's jow. So, I can't comment on it. I have used Kwong Wing Lam's and Mike Biggie's in the past. Both worked fine. Currently, we use one that I cook.
Again, let me repeat what I said in my original posts: start SLOW and build on that. Doing it slow and properly is much faster than adding in "time outs" due to injuries from trying to build too fast.
Just out of curiosity, is the three bag training for CLF?

Regards,
Richard

[SteveLau]

There is not much safety issue in the training with bags in general. That includes the 3 section wall bag. By inference, there is also not much chance to use medication like jow. What I mean is that injuring ourself is unlikely. My only worry is the health of the wall behind the bag. Over time, the decoration of the wall might comes off. I have seen that before.


Regards,

KC
Hong Kong

[David Jamieson]

The above advice is a nearly foolproof way of injuring your hands. :eek:

When the sand in the sandbags becomes hard simply massage the sandbags to break up the sand.

Condition the hands with sand for a few months before attempting beans. Rushing to beans in a hanging bag will certainly injure your hands.
If I remember correctly, Gene or Gino can correct me if I am wrong, the Ku Yu Cheong lineage of iron palm recommends at least 3 months of practice with sand before changing to beans.

NEVER use iron shot! Though bbs are fine during the final stages of iron palm training. Again, if memory serves me right, bbs are not recommended till after a few years of bean training in the Ku Yu Cheong lineage.

BTW, Ku Yu Cheong was once of the most famous iron palm experts of modern times. So, I'll take their methods.

Richard

The method from Ku yu-cheong does not use a wall bag at all. It's quite well known and tehre are books about just the iron palm.

It uses a single bag on a horizontal platform and the starting media is mung beans, the secondary media is river stone and the third media is shot. The shot requires and extra liner in the bag.

Sand is NOT a good media to put in there because it doesn't absorb force. It is too small and will go hard in two or three strikes. Use Mung beans first.

Sorry for the confusion to the original poster, but MYM I think you are dead wrong about using sand. And to the original poster, if you do not have a sifu guiding you in this who has been guided themselves through the method, then you are taking a risk here.
:)

[Lucas]

isnt there supposed to be some quality to the mung beans, thats why people use them over other beans? idk but i remember hearing about it, sometime from someone somewhere i cant remember. :D

[lost lohan]

The conditioning method IS myng beans 3-6 mos, gravel 6-12 mos, and then steel shot. You can get Ku Yu Cheongs Dit Da Jow from sifu Mike Biggie, who I would highly recomend. Its cheaper to get a gallons worth of herbs and mix it yourself. But then you have to wait about 2 months for it to brew, but his is the best I've used.

[mooyingmantis]

The conditioning method IS myng beans 3-6 mos, gravel 6-12 mos, and then steel shot. You can get Ku Yu Cheongs Dit Da Jow from sifu Mike Biggie, who I would highly recomend. Its cheaper to get a gallons worth of herbs and mix it yourself. But then you have to wait about 2 months for it to brew, but his is the best I've used.

After checking with a friend who is an instructor in the Ku Yu Cheong lineage I must admit that I was wrong about the use of sand. Mung beans are the first part of the training. I was speaking from memory, which in my case is not always a good reference. My apologies! :(

Lost Lohan's description is the newer revised method. The old school method required much longer time between moving on to a different striking medium. For example, 3 times a day for 2 years on mung beans till gravel was used. Chi gong exercises are also a required part of the KYC iron palm training.

Richard

[sanjuro_ronin]

I have done two methods of IP:
The standard method of various substances working your way up to Iron and the one that starts right off with iron ( though it tends to be geared towards those that have some conditioning already).
Done properly both methods work very well and the direct to iron was just fine and I had no problem with it at all.
You MUST use very good/strong jow from the very beginning though.
As for the hanging bags, I use iron pellets and it worked fine.
You just need to remember that you are NOT drilling full force.
The "forging" process is a slow process and rushing it is when you get hurt.

[lost lohan]

Every thing I've learned says not to go to iron or steal right away! When it comes to the hands I tend to be more carefull, I for instance used mung beans 1-3 times a day for approx. 4 years. I then worked on gravel for about 6 years, and have been using steel shot for 1 year. A fyi about steel shot bags.....you can go to Cabela's and get steel shot for reloading there. Take two five pound bags and combine them in one bag. Then cover a second time with the extra bag. Steel bird shot comes in a nice canvas bag already. Three minutes of sewing and you save approx. 80.00 over buying one. Then as you wear them out, save the shot and put them in a nice canvas commercial bag till full. You can also get realy nice canvas bags from warrior martial arts supply, they double stitch the canvas so it lasts longer. Just some tips from a cheap cheap person.
And yes what I posted was the newer method, as there is alot more info on it. But yes everything I've learned is slow and steady wins the race!

[PlumDragon]

Hanging wall bags are usually treated differently than iron palm training because most wall bags are meant to be struck with fist attacks rather than more meaty parts of the hand like iron palm. Really there is a system to this that is more than the product of a simple thread. Pick someone (a local teacher, an internet correspondence, whatever) and spend the time to go through all the details with them. If you have qeustions and they cant provide specific concise and rational answers, move on. Its not rocket science, its relaly all quite simple...but there are some common pitfalls.

With fist strikes on a wall bag, you need to still go slow so you dont damage the knuckles, but you also should be more careful about putting things like iron, steel, or lead shot in these bags. If you want to issue power and work on power development on a wall bag, you should stick with something less dense and less hard, such as gravel or rice. Rice is a very good choice because on top of being lower in density, it has a relatively low hardness rating (Brinell hardness is about 1/100 of steel, for example), so it will not cause serious problems when doing initial knuckle conditioning.



Every thing I've learned says not to go to iron or steal right away! When it comes to the hands I tend to be more carefull, I for instance used mung beans 1-3 times a day for approx. 4 years. I then worked on gravel for about 6 years, and have been using steel shot for 1 year.Personally, for iron palm type training, I feel the only reason to ever touch beans is until a student gets down the feel of the strikes. One or 2 months as a basic start and then they should be off to gravel, and really theres little reason why one cant start on gravel. Three months on gravel is plenty, and then on up to some kind of shot. Wallbag training is no different with iron palm type strikes; for fist strikes, be more conservative.

Of course, thats just my opinion, many people train in many different ways and still obtain results. I just think that youre cheating yoruself by keeping away from shot for more than a few months in the beginning with palm strikes...




Steel bird shot comes in a nice canvas bag already. Three minutes of sewing and you save approx. 80.00 over buying one.You can buy a well-made vinyl-lined canvas bag for way less than $80. We sell em for $20.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Hanging wall bags are usually treated differently than iron palm training because most wall bags are meant to be struck with fist attacks rather than more meaty parts of the hand like iron palm. Really there is a system to this that is more than the product of a simple thread. Pick someone (a local teacher, an internet correspondence, whatever) and spend the time to go through all the details with them. If you have qeustions and they cant provide specific concise and rational answers, move on. Its not rocket science, its relaly all quite simple...but there are some common pitfalls.

With fist strikes on a wall bag, you need to still go slow so you dont damage the knuckles, but you also should be more careful about putting things like iron, steel, or lead shot in these bags. If you want to issue power and work on power development on a wall bag, you should stick with something less dense and less hard, such as gravel or rice. Rice is a very good choice because on top of being lower in density, it has a relatively low hardness rating (Brinell hardness is about 1/100 of steel, for example), so it will not cause serious problems when doing initial knuckle conditioning.


Personally, for iron palm type training, I feel the only reason to ever touch beans is until a student gets down the feel of the strikes. One or 2 months as a basic start and then they should be off to gravel, and really theres little reason why one cant start on gravel. Three months on gravel is plenty, and then on up to some kind of shot. Wallbag training is no different with iron palm type strikes; for fist strikes, be more conservative.

Of course, thats just my opinion, many people train in many different ways and still obtain results. I just think that youre cheating yoruself by keeping away from shot for more than a few months in the beginning with palm strikes...



You can buy a well-made vinyl-lined canvas bag for way less than $80. We sell em for $20.

Do you sell wall bags too?
In regards to your IP vinyl lined bags, do you sell them filled as well as unfilled?

[PlumDragon]

Hey Sanjuro,

We dont currently sell wallbags but we make everything in-house from scratch and have taken custom orders on that sort of thing before.

As of now we do not sell the vinyl-lined bags pre-filled, primarily because of the weight involved with shipping a 50+ lbs bag. Filling one with rice or beans and stitching it up prior to shipment would be no problem, although I imagine that wouldnt be what youre looking for...If you want the bag prefilled with somethign else, contact me off-forum and we can talk about it...

[sanjuro_ronin]

Hey Sanjuro,

We dont sell wallbags but we make everything in-house from scratch and have taken custom orders on that sort of thing before.

As of now we do not sell the vinyl-lined bags pre-filled, primarily because of the weight involved with shipping a 50+ lbs bag. Filling one with rice or beans and stitching it up prior to shipment would be no problem, although I imagine that wouldnt be what youre looking for... ;)

My IP bag is a few years old and I was thinking of getting a new one.
I will PM you :)

[lost lohan]

Hey PlumDragon What I was talking about was the canvas IP bags filled with steel shot costing 90.00-150.00 plus shipping. The bird shot(steel not lead) costs about 30.00 for two 5 pound bags that come in canvas already. Just combine in one bag sew shut and cover with extra bag, with your new seam on the inside. So that would save the average practitioner 40.00-120.00 on 1 bag filled. The finished bag is aprox. 6" x 11", which will cover most of your strikes. And rather than throwing out a worn bag I'm all for buying a bag from you, I just bought a bag that I fill with steel from my worn bags. And the only reason to continue use of the mung bean bag is warm ups and the idea that many IP masters believe that the powder that is produced is good for fortifying the skin. In my case as I could afford to, I moved up.
Do you double stitch your seams? I ask because the cheaper wholesale bags tend to blow out to easily. 1 row of thread doesn't seem to cut it with hard use.:)

[PlumDragon]

And the only reason to continue use of the mung bean bag is warm ups and the idea that many IP masters believe that the powder that is produced is good for fortifying the skin.Well, thats the antiquated theory. In actuality, you get nothing from mung bean dust created within a bag. Many people claim that the dust comes through the bag and mixes with the jow and a bunch of other hoopla. This is silly, the herbal action comes from the jow, nothing medicinally useful seaps out of the bag, especially if its lined with vinyl.

Best off to just start with gravel, IMO and move to shot sooner than later.


Do you double stitch your seams? I ask because the cheaper wholesale bags tend to blow out to easily. 1 row of thread doesn't seem to cut it with hard use.:)Its a zigzag double-stitch, we make the bags with a professional sewing machine. The bags last.

[monkeyfoot]

Hi people thanks for the replies

I am currently using a choice of the following jows

- http://www.wushudirect.co.uk/acatalog/Wisest%20Oil.jpg
(i also have the green one which is apparently stronger)

- http://www.wushudirect.co.uk/acatalog/ditda.jpg

- and some new stuff I got
http://www.tcmherbs.co.uk/images/shenggushui88ml.jpg


Can anyone comment on the effectiveness of any of these...

C

ps: What do you guys do about cuts on the knuckles...ive had to stay off my bag for a week now because my misses can't stand how my white canvas is now red...
takes bloody ages to heal!

[Dale Dugas]

My IP bag is a few years old and I was thinking of getting a new one.
I will PM you :)

going to the other side I see?

;)

Monkey foot, unfortunately I have no idea what is in their medicines so no one will be able to tell you what they are good for.

too many commerical products are just too weak for anything other than a minor bruise.

I make some of the strongest medicine on the planet. There are others. Such as Plumdragon, who make strong medicine as well. The rest of the suppliers are ripping people off selling watered down drek as potent medicinals.

I can ship you the herbs to make THE strongest Iron Palm medicine as well as injury formulas out there.

Ronin can attest to my formulas as many others on this board and others.

Let me know how I can be of service to you .

[Dale Dugas]

Hey PlumDragon What I was talking about was the canvas IP bags filled with steel shot costing 90.00-150.00 plus shipping. The bird shot(steel not lead) costs about 30.00 for two 5 pound bags that come in canvas already. Just combine in one bag sew shut and cover with extra bag, with your new seam on the inside. So that would save the average practitioner 40.00-120.00 on 1 bag filled. The finished bag is aprox. 6" x 11", which will cover most of your strikes. And rather than throwing out a worn bag I'm all for buying a bag from you, I just bought a bag that I fill with steel from my worn bags. And the only reason to continue use of the mung bean bag is warm ups and the idea that many IP masters believe that the powder that is produced is good for fortifying the skin. In my case as I could afford to, I moved up.
Do you double stitch your seams? I ask because the cheaper wholesale bags tend to blow out to easily. 1 row of thread doesn't seem to cut it with hard use.:)

Not only antiquated but dangerous.

You can breath in that dust can cause serious harm to your lungs and your health.

You want to use lined bags for whatever medium you are using.

I make my bags through an industrial bag maker who also makes training pads. The stitching on my bags will not fail under normal use. Also you do not want any contact with metals of any kind with your medicine leaking back to your skin.

Unlike certain fraudlent Iron Palm "masters" who claim you need the metal to mix with your medicine to create the iron palm, you want to avoid that at all costs. You can poison yourself over time even if you are using iron shot directly. Direct training is not to be undertaken. You can OD from having too much iron in your body and it will harm you.

Hence you want to seal your bags that have been lined.

My bags are lined with waterproof polyester vinyl.

My bags sell for 25.00. Not a big investment for your health, and training safety.

[goju]

plum dragon does have amazing jow

to my knowledge ive never heard any one say otherwise either

[sanjuro_ronin]

going to the other side I see?

;)

Monkey foot, unfortunately I have no idea what is in their medicines so no one will be able to tell you what they are good for.

too many commerical products are just too weak for anything other than a minor bruise.

I make some of the strongest medicine on the planet. There are others. Such as Plumdragon, who make strong medicine as well. The rest of the suppliers are ripping people off selling watered down drek as potent medicinals.

I can ship you the herbs to make THE strongest Iron Palm medicine as well as injury formulas out there.

Ronin can attest to my formulas as many others on this board and others.

Let me know how I can be of service to you .

LMAO !
Yes, indeed, Dale's stuff is of the highest claiber and I have tried manyother types.
BTW Dale, I didn't know you had LINED bags.

[Dale Dugas]

I have them.

All you had to do was ask brother.

I sell unlined and lined.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I have them.

All you had to do was ask brother.

I sell unlined and lined.

I recall when you first started you didn't have lined bags.

[Dale Dugas]

That was a long time ago brother.

I have since hired the same bag maker that Steve had.

All my bags are made by him.

Lined and unlined.

you can find them HERE (http://www.coilingdragon.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=30_17&products_id=166)

I have one here in stock and an another order on the way of the lined bags.

[sanjuro_ronin]

That was a long time ago brother.

I have since hired the same bag maker that Steve had.

All my bags are made by him.

Lined and unlined.

you can find them HERE (http://www.coilingdragon.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=30_17&products_id=166)

I have one here in stock and an another order on the way of the lined bags.

Thanks for the info :D

[lost lohan]

I'm sorry but I'm confused over this, There are reports of lung disease from smelting metals.....but this occurs in closed in areas, and its actually from the smoke. As for metal dust coming through two canvas bags and then "floating in the air like dead skin?", sounds like marketing to me. Not saying anyones full of it, just that there is a fine line between scientific possibilities and marketing. If you are using lead, then I would definately follow suite with the lined bags, as that causes cancer. And its not the cost of the bag in question but the cost of steal shot! Cost example: 10 x 11 inch bag will take about 30-40 pounds of steal shot @ 15.00 per 5 pounds. 6 x 15=90.00 + 25.00 + 6.00 ship and handle = 121.00.

I have used my bag for well over a year, yes there is steal dust, but only on the bottom, and only a 3"x 4" ring. Not hardley the size of the bag which I said before is 6"x 11"(I was wrong here as I went and actually measured my bag which is 5 1/2 x 8"), which tells me that it is sinking because of weight and not floating around in the air. And If steal leaking into your skin is so dangerous, why do we use it for needles,surgeries, bike handles, chairs,etc.? But if you wish to error on the side of caution thats cool too. Just remember that hunting regulations are switching from lead to steal because it doesn't harm the envirnment, or poison game that only got a flesh wound. But then I'm not a doctor, and I don't sell jow or bags. And I was just giving free advice, If it helps someone cool, If not cool!

[PlumDragon]

Hi Lohan,

In your reply, you elude to the cost of the shot, which I dont think anyone is arguing about--that stuff is expensive. So Im not really sure what you are arguing about anyway. Nevertheless, it doesnt really have anything to do with marketing, but rather here is a bit of thought process on the matter:

- PRICE: The vinyl lined bags cost no real additional money. In fact, Dale and I sell our vinyl-lined bags for the same price or less than some people sell non-lined bags, primarily because I think we are both more concerned that people use safer equipment than making a profit on them.

Coincidentally, the big cost you elude to is the cost of the shot, not the bag. Lead, steel, iron, its all pretty expensive--I dont suppose by chance youve checked the cost of tungsten shot lately?? If you want to go the cheap route, buy yourself some gravel from Home Depot and have it be done. Problem is, you can only get so far with gravel...

-SAFETY: When hitting lead, having a vinyl sealed bag is a must, as you admit. And while you may be correct that dust formed from other substances is not harmful in the small quantities it is released, I tend to prefer to be better safe than sorry because there is very little evidence either way, although Ive heard accounts of dust in closed areas causing lung problems over the years, and for me thats all I need. Given that the vinyl-lined bags dont cost more money, why let the possibility even exist? If you use a vinyl-lined bag you set that infinitesimal doubt to rest and it doesnt cost you any more money...

- DURABILITY: The vinyl-lined bags do provide some additional level of durability. This seems to become most apparent with gravel and iron, which are not as uniform or smooth as steel or lead shot.

[lost lohan]

Mike said you were a good guy, so I will explain. The Whole concept that Dugan eluded to kinda got me fired up. I apologize. The whole You can have too much Iron in your body from contact with steal is kinda crazy. My point in my original post was a cheap iron palm bag. The fact that you got 2 canvas bags with 10 pounds of steal shot 1 bag for each 5 pounds you buy, at cabelas (a chain of fishing/hunting stores, really any hunting store could help.) for 30.00 plus tax versus paying for a filled IP bag is an inexpensive alternative. The we can make a great lined bag that is safer, kinda.. is like huh? And my point was shipping plus steal plus bag.

And if to much Iron from contact is a problem.......then why do surgeons use steal instruments? Or why are bike handles made from steal? Etc.? That is the marketing crap I'm talking about. Can a person develop respiratory problems from breathing bad air? Every day at home! So why do we insist on vinyl wrapped steal? Because someone told us a danger exists, some one selling something. I know that you sell quality products because someone I trust mentioned you as being someone to trust, actually "a good person". So I don't mind explaining myself.

So if I upset YOU personally....I'm sorry, your post had merit. I tried to acknowledge that. I do have a source for bags, but I would be willing to try some of your other products sometime. I just have little patience for people working on an agenda that slights others. I hope I made it clear, my original post was about the total package, not just the shot, not just the bag and not just the shipping. But an iron palm bag for around 30.00 - 40.00, that was it. And the savings over purchasing a combined product, that was it. It wasn't complicated, people not reading the thread made it complicated to further commercial interests....that's it.

[LSWCTN1]

i started on 10mm pea shingle gravel in a canvas bag from pagoda

started without jow, then bought leung jan jow from pagoda too - didnt notice a diffence really - maybe i wasnt doing it right or maybe its more in the massage than the oitment? i dont know.

was fighting once and missed the guy on the floor, hitting the pavement. grazes were frustrating but dont 'hurt' as such. no pain whatsoever from hitting a very solid object (the floor!)

still only using the pea shingle but it seems to be doing what i need it for. improving my structure, pain threshold and hand strength.

[Dale Dugas]

Lost Lohan,

It seems you missed to what I was trying to allude.

There are many people out there promoting the direct training method of Iron Palm. This method can be dangerous as you are in direct contact with the training medium.

Your material is in the open where if its powders you are at risk LONG TERM, for inhaling dust from beans, gravel and IRON pellets. I did not say STEEL shot. If there is any kind of mold, or other fungi on your direct training medium, you could be at risk for lung issues. why take that risk at all? Hence my explanation of putting your medium into a bag, and a lined bag is always going to be safer than non-lined.

Steel shot will be hard to break down over time. but it tends to happen if you are using regular carbon steel shot and not stainless steel which is usually hardened more.

Whether you train indirectly in a bag or directly, having porous bags that can leak any form of dust over time can lead to health issues. If you are using Iron Pellets indirecyly or in a thin bag you are at a higher risk for stroke and heart attack as having too much iron in your blood which will cause ill effects to your health. I was not talking about Steel.

If you use a thin porous canvas bag you can be at risk from inhaling medium dust over the long term, as Iron Palm training is not something you train short term. It is a lifetime of study for those interested. Unless you are training out in the open you could be at risk.

I mentioned lined bags as I have used lead shot bags in my training and have never tested for any lead in my body nor has my teacher. The lined bags prevent any of the lead to get out. Why take the risk of doing ANY damage to your body.

You mentioned cost. The bags alluded to are 25 dollars at my store, the lead shot to fill them is about 70 dollars shipped. You now have a bag for less than a $100.00 that will last a lifetime if used correctly. That is not overly expensive by any ways or means.

It can be seen as cost restrictive by some.

Sometimes it is better to invest in your health now so you do not have to pay for it later.

You also can seek out sand blasting and steel blasting companies and see if you can purchased recycled steel blasting shot.

Soybeans/Mung Beans/ Kidney Beans can be used for 1-2 years before moving to metal shot. You can gain much through the use of such mediums.

I know both Mike Biggie and Josh personally, and speak with them on a regular basis. Mike and I have shared much over the years.

Why make underhanded comments about people having commercial interests at heart? I make and sell real medicine for people that train for real. Mike makes it as well. So does Josh, why not make the same comments about them?

Nothing wrong with promoting the right manner in which to train which will help rather than harm people. There are way too many unskilled amateurs out there who are outright lying and stealing peoples money.

I am not one of them.

[mooyingmantis]

Since most who know me would agree that I am a cheapskate... I would much prefer a lined bag since it should last much longer than an unlined bag. And I think $20-25 for a quality sewn lined bag that should last a lifetime is a bargain.

As for dust, I do not know about the dangers of steel or iron shot. However, lead and aluminum are definite no-nos for health reasons. Lead dust can cause a health risk due to lead poisoning. Aluminum dust is considered one possible cause of Alzheimer's Disease. So definitely avoid lead and aluminum.

Richard

[lost lohan]

I agree a 25.00 bag is a bargain, but a 40.00 filled steel shot bag is a steal! And Dugan, you didn't allude to anyone else when you quoted my entire text, and there wasn't anything in it that said make direct contact with steel shot. So I guess I didn't miss the point, there is nothing "antiquated or dangerous" about using a steel bag double wrapped in canvas. I also never said to use lead, I said to use steel. So I didn't miss anything, but I do appreciate you expounding on some issues people have with IP training. But if you were only talking about the mung bean portion of my text, perhaps only quoting that part would leave out any miss understandings? Just a thought.

And I would never use lead, as Richard mentioned its just to dangerous. And I think much too soft, actualy softer than gravel. So going to lead I would think is almost a step backwards. I haven't seen mung beans get moldy yet, as my school is indoors, but I suppose that could happen if you keep your stuff outside.

[Dale Dugas]

lost lohan,


if you actually knew Mike and his Iron Palm method you would not make such comments about Lead.

If you want to train the wrong way, by all means go ahead. when you want to learn how to develop serious Iron Palm, come find me.

good luck with your training.

[mooyingmantis]

Dale,
You know I am in your corner. :)
However, I do know Mike. I have practiced on the bag at his school. And I have heard him warn others about the danger of breathing in lead dust. I am not saying he hasn't or doesn't use it. But he does warn about the danger. I choose to use steel shot because I just don't think it is worth the risk, even with quality lined bags such as you sell.
I don't know if Lost Lohan is a student of Mike Biggie's since he remains anonymous. And I have no idea why he is coming off so nasty and aggressive, but knowing Mike as I have since the late 1980's, he wouldn't approve of his behavior. Mike is and always has acted like a gentleman on forums the very few times he has posted. If Lost Lohan is or has been a student of Mike's, I hope he will follow Sifu's example.

Richard A. Tolson

[lost lohan]

Hello Richard,

I'm sorry that I came of as aggressive, That wasn't my intent! The fact that some people are willing to make claims of "your wrong I'm right" is definitely not Wu De! And in that spirit I am willing to apologize to Dale "Dugas" as I did misread his name and have been referring to him by the wrong name....I'm sorry. And to clear the air a little, I will let you know why I choose anonymity. First I am not a student nor ever have been of Sifu Mike Biggie, I only buy DTJ from him, and occasionally a couple other products. I don't follow his methods, I don't know what they are, really. I just know that his KYC formula is the best I've used. As for the rest about me, if we ever become friends, then I'll consider it. Otherwise I have no need or agenda to share who I am, I practice and teach CLF that's it. The rest really doesn't matter. I wish every one the determination to continue there training, and good luck with the future.

[Dale Dugas]

lost lohan.

No need to apologize.

good luck with your training.

let me know if you ever get to Boston.

would love to see how CLF deals with training the hands.