Wing Chun and Bare Knuckle Boxing

[m1k3]

This is a thread that should not lead to pi$$ing matches about how to train or who has the skillz or any of that.

I read something recently; sorry I don’t remember where, about the possible influence of bare knuckle boxing (bkb) on southern Chinese kung fu and wing chun in particular. The premise was that there would have been interactions between British and American sailors familiar with bkb and kung fu fighters in the port cities of southern China. WC and BKB share similarities in the vertical fist, short shuffling foot movement and grabbing/trapping techniques to set up a strike.

Do you consider it a possibility or even a probability that there was a BKB influence on the evolution of Wing Chun?

Just thought I throw something different out there for discussion, arguments and more. This may have been discussed before but it has been awhile since I have seen any threads with this type of topic.

Also, this is not a position that wing chun is a direct decendant of BKB, just that BKB may have had some influence in its evolution.

[sihing]

You should get Alan Orr's NHB series of videos, he discusses this topic there. From what I understand, when the invention of the boxing gloves took place, they realized they had to change the way they punched, as compared to bare fisted. I think Alan talks about this and I believe I read about it somewhere as well. Not saying that is true, just relaying some info.

It's quite possible that BNB influenced the southern chinese arts, whenever people from different places get together things do happen, hard to know though unless someone has spent sometime investigating the possibility.

James

[HumbleWCGuy]

This is a thread that should not lead to pi$$ing matches about how to train or who has the skillz or any of that.

I read something recently; sorry I don’t remember where, about the possible influence of bare knuckle boxing (bkb) on southern Chinese kung fu and wing chun in particular. The premise was that there would have been interactions between British and American sailors familiar with bkb and kung fu fighters in the port cities of southern China. WC and BKB share similarities in the vertical fist, short shuffling foot movement and grabbing/trapping techniques to set up a strike.

Do you consider it a possibility or even a probability that there was a BKB influence on the evolution of Wing Chun?

Just thought I throw something different out there for discussion, arguments and more. This may have been discussed before but it has been awhile since I have seen any threads with this type of topic.

Also, this is not a position that wing chun is a direct decendant of BKB, just that BKB may have had some influence in its evolution.

Certainly there are similarities between the two. There is no reason that good ideas can't develop somewhat independently, but your conjecture makes sense.

[SAAMAG]

WC and BNB have a common attribute--neither used gloves. The fact that both were bare knuckle means that universal truths will take hold and that could be a theory as to why there are similarities. Of course its evident that just like today...fighters will learn from one another and retain what works well. That's why you see a common assimilation of the fighting techniques and strategies in MMA...because all fighters want to use what works for their given environment.

Take for example the modern hook. One method (in short), you make a tight "C" motion with the fist in a horizontal position (parallel with the ground). Doing this bareknuckle however, can easily end with the pinkie knuckle being fractured. So for no gloves--I was taught another method of the hook whereby you use the same "C" motion but the hand is held vertically, like in the wing chun straight punch. The reason for it was to help minimize fractures of the last knuckle.

[Vajramusti]

FWIW- the forum is in pretty bad shape IMO- pretty much taken over by people who write repetitious posts and lack depth of understanding of wing chun. There is no problem with doing things other than wing chun but there are several other forums more appropriate for that kind of discussion and one can read and comment freely in the general,jkd, street fighting , mma and other forums.
But the BNB thread a least tries to bring up a comparative topic. While western sailors may have had fights in ports- I do not think that it influenced WC much- of course people can have coulda would a speculation.
Not just WC most kuen Northern and Southern were bare fist, bare palm and except for street shoes bare feet arts. Different activities can develop independent of each other.The structural dynamics of BNB training and wc are considerably different from each other.

On Vankuen;s point on the hook-the wc hooking is IMO considerably different from BNB and boxing.
Regarding the infamous boxer's fracture of the pinky- more likely when the training of the fist is wrong. One should develop the wc hooking fist landing as square on as possible. When the fist is structurally sound and the wc coordination is properly developed one can hook at different angles - depending on target and is not limited to only horizontal usage. Proper training on the wall bag helps focus inter-knuckle support structure and focus. Regular development practice can help before actual application IMO of course- your POV could be different..no problem!

joy chaudhuri

[SAAMAG]

On Vankuen;s point on the hook-the wc hooking is IMO considerably different from BNB and boxing.
Regarding the infamous boxer's fracture of the pinky- more likely when the training of the fist is wrong. One should develop the wc hooking fist landing as square on as possible. When the fist is structurally sound and the wc coordination is properly developed one can hook at different angles - depending on target and is not limited to only horizontal usage. Proper training on the wall bag helps focus inter-knuckle support structure and focus.


Well I wasn't really trying to focalize on the hook punch persay, only using it as an example at how punching bareknuckle is can be approached differently than with gloves.

Every style teaches structural integrity, form, and technique. So yes, punching the wall bag, hitting the heavy bag, and the like helps to ingrain that. The problem has more to do with the fact that in a fight your punches aren't all going to hit square. They're not all going to even hit the target, some will miss altogether, some with make contact with harder parts of the body like the forehead, the elbows, and etcetera. Doesn't matter how hard you train...stuff happens.

That is more the reason why the hand fractures occur in my opinion...because if you hit something with 180lbs of force and it focalizes on one pinkie knuckle that has no structural support...something is going to break. Hence the reason why punching styles were different in boxing way back when versus the methodology of today.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Does classical WC even have a hook punch? I have never seen it. Instead of hooks, I thought that strict classical practitioners primarily relied upon elbows rather than hooks. I thought that the hook was an add-on. When I had dealt with traditionalists, they never used it.



EDIT
I had seen some articles back in the early 90's detailing that one of the "secret" techniques of upper-level WC was the hook and the uppercut. Obviously, classical wc has an uppercut-like punch but it isn't quite the same. These articles seemed to be a bit disingenuous. I thought that they were an attempt to make WC appear modern with the backing of many year of tradition behind it.

[Vajramusti]

Does classical WC even have a hook punch? I have never seen it. Instead of hooks, I thought that strict classical practitioners primarily relied upon elbows rather than hooks. I thought that the hook was an add-on. When I had dealt with traditionalists, they never used it.



EDIT
I had seen some articles back in the early 90's detailing that one of the "secret" techniques of upper-level WC was the hook and the uppercut. Obviously, classical wc has an uppercut-like punch but it isn't quite the same. These articles seemed to be a bit disingenuous. I thought that they were an attempt to make WC appear modern with the backing of many year of tradition behind it.
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My roots are in "classical" wing chun derived through a Ip Man lineage(Augustine Fong)-and the foundation for developing WC "hooks" and "uppercuts" are there in wc forms that I do. Of course they are not the "same"
as many western hooks and uppercuts.Structural details and dynamics are different. Think "motion" rather than "techniques". The uppercut is there in chum kiu and the jong, the hook is there in the jong and biu jee. And with proper development you can sharpen their timing in chi sao, gor sao and lat sao. If you briefly lose the centerline you can recover with a hook.
Not secret techniques-just developments-not limitations- along the way.

When properly developed with good timing skills- you can play your game against other styles
and adapt to circumstances...in sparring and beyond.

Not debating just commenting on this part of the thread(i.e.,Humble wc's post)

joy chaudhuri

[Lee Chiang Po]

This is a thread that should not lead to pi$$ing matches about how to train or who has the skillz or any of that.

I read something recently; sorry I don’t remember where, about the possible influence of bare knuckle boxing (bkb) on southern Chinese kung fu and wing chun in particular. The premise was that there would have been interactions between British and American sailors familiar with bkb and kung fu fighters in the port cities of southern China. WC and BKB share similarities in the vertical fist, short shuffling foot movement and grabbing/trapping techniques to set up a strike.

Do you consider it a possibility or even a probability that there was a BKB influence on the evolution of Wing Chun?

Just thought I throw something different out there for discussion, arguments and more. This may have been discussed before but it has been awhile since I have seen any threads with this type of topic.

Also, this is not a position that wing chun is a direct decendant of BKB, just that BKB may have had some influence in its evolution.

No, No, No, and NO!

[Knifefighter]

It's quite possible that BNB influenced the southern chinese arts, whenever people from different places get together things do happen, hard to know though unless someone has spent sometime investigating the possibility.
Effective punching is the same with or without gloves.

[HumbleWCGuy]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My roots are in "classical" wing chun derived through a Ip Man lineage(Augustine Fong)-and the foundation for developing WC "hooks" and "uppercuts" are there in wc forms that I do. Of course they are not the "same"
as many western hooks and uppercuts.Structural details and dynamics are different. Think "motion" rather than "techniques". The uppercut is there in chum kiu and the jong, the hook is there in the jong and biu jee. And with proper development you can sharpen their timing in chi sao, gor sao and lat sao. If you briefly lose the centerline you can recover with a hook.
Not secret techniques-just developments-not limitations- along the way.

When properly developed with good timing skills- you can play your game against other styles
and adapt to circumstances...in sparring and beyond.

Not debating just commenting on this part of the thread(i.e.,Humble wc's post)

joy chaudhuri

Thanks, Joy. I was actually hoping for your response. The first looping techniques that I learned were precisely because of the forms that we practice and in the manner that you discuss. Although, our forms are different than your lineage, they (the first "hooks" that I learned) were more similar to a karate ridge hand, a boxing corkscrew, or the casting punch used by mma fighters than a boxing hook. Is that something that you can attest to as well?

[Vajramusti]

Thanks, Joy. I was actually hoping for your response. The first looping techniques that I learned were precisely because of the forms that we practice and in the manner that you discuss. Although, our forms are different than your lineage, they (the first "hooks" that I learned) were more similar to a karate ridge hand, a boxing corkscrew, or the casting punch used by mma fighters than a boxing hook. Is that something that you can attest to as well?
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Re my wc and:
1. karate ridge hand? NO- much of karate involves hip swiveling.

2. boxing corkscrew-no- many boxers load up on their shoulders.

3. Sorry I don't know what a mma casting punch is.

joy chaudhuri

[sihing]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LEQJtWap0M&feature=related ,

Bas Rutten on punching and striking. Aroung the 5:55 mark he talks about why boxers break their hands when striking. From what I understand Bas is one of the most powerful strikers out there, or at least was. Plus he advocates palm striking as well. The whole vid is very useful information.

As a side note to the vid, please observe the parallel concepts he talks about between his method of striking and what VT advocates i.e. proper facing, elbows in, fist position, using the ground, non telegraphic motions, just some things I found facsinating when I first viewed the video a few weeks ago. It doesn't guarantee anything for anyone viewing it, it just provides proof that VT advocates some soild ideas about how to strike.

James

[SAAMAG]

Is it the clip from his training vids? I personally like the one where he's in the bar...dang bong bang..."I'm sorry sir -- but I'm going to have to break your leg":D

[sihing]

Is it the clip from his training vids? I personally like the one where he's in the bar...dang bong bang..."I'm sorry sir -- but I'm going to have to break your leg":D

It's from one of his DVD's I'm sure. I just found it searching his name on youtube. Yeah I love that vid, where he makes all the sound effects. I think Bas is a good representation of the attitude one should have, he doesn't take is so seriously, and has fun with it at times, but when it's time to rock all jokes are out the window. Some here should use his example and mellow out a bit, but I guess when there are agenda's to populate and egos to inflate, mellow is out of the question:eek:

James

[Knifefighter]

Bas Rutten on punching and striking. Aroung the 5:55 mark he talks about why boxers break their hands when striking. From what I understand Bas is one of the most powerful strikers out there, or at least was. Plus he advocates palm striking as well. The whole vid is very useful information.

There's one huge problem with trying to strike with a certain knuckle vs. another one. In the chaos of a streetfight, you are unable to control which knuckle you are hitting with. Personally, in a real fight, I have no problem breaking my hand on someone's face.

[sihing]

There's one huge problem with trying to strike with a certain knuckle vs. another one. In the chaos of a streetfight, you are unable to control which knuckle you are hitting with. Personally, in a real fight, I have no problem breaking my hand on someone's face.

Don't look at the knuckle, or you will miss all that heavenly glory:eek::cool::D

[Matrix]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LEQJtWap0M&feature=related ,

Bas Rutten on punching and striking. Aroung the 5:55 mark he talks about why boxers break their hands when striking. From what I understand Bas is one of the most powerful strikers out there, or at least was. Plus he advocates palm striking as well. The whole vid is very useful information.James.
Interesting video. Thanks for posting.

Bill

[SAAMAG]

There's one huge problem with trying to strike with a certain knuckle vs. another one. In the chaos of a streetfight, you are unable to control which knuckle you are hitting with. Personally, in a real fight, I have no problem breaking my hand on someone's face.

I completely agree. That's what I was saying before...you can plan on hitting a certain way but in reality there's always a chance that it won't happen that way.

Although to that point, I think another way to say it is that whatever part of your fist that hits its target, it needs to be structurally aligned to be completely successful (powerful and safe). Just like in Karate you hit with the first two knuckles aligned with the radial bone, and in wing chun you hit with the bottom three (again, wrist in such a way where the knuckles are supported by the radial bone).

But he makes valid points in his theories. Of course it's always a case of quid pro quo. You stand square, you show more of your body, but you gain ambidexterity in both power and options. So it's all about what works for you.

Lastly....Bas is awesome. Gotta love a guy who can make jokes while pummelling you.

[HumbleWCGuy]

There's one huge problem with trying to strike with a certain knuckle vs. another one. In the chaos of a streetfight, you are unable to control which knuckle you are hitting with. Personally, in a real fight, I have no problem breaking my hand on someone's face.

Do you train people to not worry about how the knuckles land?

[YungChun]

IME the horizontal fist is problematic.. Unlike our vertical fist the horizontal fist floats the wrist, is never locked and often impacts with the non aligned part of the fist causing what is called a boxer's fracture, where the pinky side knuckles shear away from the larger side knuckles.. By striking with the (in general) bottom of the fist this in my experience significantly reduces this tendency to impact on the unsupported side of the fist and cause this common fist injury...

However, most modern combative trainers today advocate not using fists for a myriad of reasons not the least of which is getting blood infections from teeth penetrating into the thin skin over the knuckle area.. when impacting the mouth of the opponent... Instead many modern approaches use open handed strikes and power slaps known to the Marines as the B1tch Slap....can be very powerful.

[Matrix]

Do you train people to not worry about how the knuckles land?Bingo...............

[m1k3]

Bingo...............
Bingo, you agree with knifefighter that you don't worry about how the knuckles land or bingo you agree with HumbleWingChunGuy that you should be concerned about how the knuckles land? I'm sooo confused.:confused:

To be honest I am primarily a grappler and consider striking as a set up for a takedown. As such I am not as worried about damaging my hand because I'm not trying to hit with a lot of force. Having trained TWC before switching to grappling I use it as my striking platform.

[Matrix]

Bingo, you agree with knifefighter that you don't worry about how the knuckles land or bingo you agree with HumbleWingChunGuy that you should be concerned about how the knuckles land? I'm sooo confused.:confused: Nope. I'm agreeing with HumbleWCGuy.

We should train to have correct biomechanical structure, with the expectation that we will hit that way in practice. Of course Dale is correct in saying that in the chaos of a real fight that things may not work as planned, but I think HumbleWCGuy is saying that we should train in a way so as to expect that the knuckes will land in the "proper"position.

At least that's how I read it. Sorry if I caused some confusion.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Nope. I'm agreeing with HumbleWCGuy.

We should train to have correct biomechanical structure, with the expectation that we will hit that way in practice. Of course Dale is correct in saying that in the chaos of a real fight that things may not work as planned, but I think HumbleWCGuy is saying that we should train in a way so as to expect that the knuckes will land in the "proper"position.

At least that's how I read it. Sorry if I caused some confusion.

You read between the lines. I am suggesting that we should always train with correct bio-mechanical structure to give ourselves the greatest odds of not hurting ourselves.

[goju]

huh never heard that theory before
but id assume it doesnt have much weight to it because southern kung fu had the shuffing. vertical fist, and trapping in it before the chinese interaction with brits

[Matrix]

You read between the lines. I read on the center line. ;)

[Knifefighter]

You read between the lines. I am suggesting that we should always train with correct bio-mechanical structure to give ourselves the greatest odds of not hurting ourselves.

Of course one should train with the best biomechanics. Unfortunately, most people don't even know what this is.

[SAAMAG]

Of course one should train with the best biomechanics. Unfortunately, most people don't even know what this is.

Could that be a bit of an overstatement? All styles try and use the best body mechanics possible based on the guidelines of their respective styles.

Obviously though some methods are more condusive to achieving speed and power but that's another discussion.

[m1k3]

huh never heard that theory before
but id assume it doesnt have much weight to it because southern kung fu had the shuffing. vertical fist, and trapping in it before the chinese interaction with brits

It wasn't so much that bkb was the forefather of wing chun or other southern boxing but that there may have been some influence because of fighting. If you are a good fighter and you run into something new, that works, you tend to pick it up and add it to your toolbox.

[goju]

It wasn't so much that bkb was the forefather of wing chun or other southern boxing but that there may have been some influence because of fighting. If you are a good fighter and you run into something new, that works, you tend to pick it up and add it to your toolbox.

oh i understood what was meant but the theory seems a bit silly too me:D

[Wilson]

Of course the "mechanics" of a punch CAN be the same with gloves on or without. My question to you is SHOULD the mechanics be the same? If not, then you should train with your answer to that question in mind.

Go out and hit your punching bag with gloves on and with gloves off. Palm strikes and vertical punches start looking (I should say feeling) a lot better.

To look at MMA...how effective was Urijah Faber when he broke both hands against Mike Brown in the first round of their fight? He had to change his whole striking method and became ineffective. He also said he couldn't grapple as well. Remember, gloves in MMA are to protect the punchers' hands...not the punchees' faces.

To say you don't mind breaking your hand in a fight seems silly to me. It could happen, but I'm pretty sure you don't want it to....which relates back to my question in the first paragraph.

Happy training.

[Matrix]

All styles try and use the best body mechanics possible based on the guidelines of their respective styles. This sounds rather circular to me. Are the biomechanics driving the guidelines, or the style-guidlines driving the biomechanics. I see these as two very different things.

[SAAMAG]

This sounds rather circular to me. Are the biomechanics driving the guidelines, or the style-guidlines driving the biomechanics. I see these as two very different things.

In other words...the styles are driving the biomechanics based on what the style's guidelines. Assuming all individual performance variables are equal, that's why you see varying effectiveness in power generation, speed, injuries, and the like from one style's methods to another. That's also why we're probably having this conversation. ;)

[Matrix]

In other words...the styles are driving the biomechanics based on what the style's guidelines. Assuming all individual performance variables are equal, that's why you see varying effectiveness in power generation, speed, injuries, and the like from one style's methods to another. That's also why we're probably having this conversation. ;)Yes, that's definitely a reason for the discussion.
To me the biomechanics should be the driver, not the style. If your style guidelines dictate a certain "technique" in response to a situation, even if you respond in a biomechanically efficient way, if the response itself (based on the style guideline) is flawed then biomechanical efficiency is a waste, IMO.

[Lee Chiang Po]

A punch is a punch is a punch. Everyone knows how to punch in one form or another. It is the mechanics of how they punch that makes it good or bad. And punching with a thick glove on is like running in a pair of those really tall shoes. the ones with the 3 and 4 inch soles. You can sprain an anke, or a wrist, depending on which activity you are involved in. A hook is not a well aligned punch. It comes at an angle, and can easily fold on you causing a wrist injury or even a finger bone injury. A hook is short also. Any time you curve your arm you shorten it. The longest reach is from a direct straight line punch. And the more natural a fist you can make, the less likely you are to injure yourself. If there is any chance of your injuring yourself in a fight, you need to do some alteration on your punching technique. A broken or sprained wrist in a fight leaves you one handed. Providing you can withstand the pain, you still have to defend with one hand and your feet. This can end in your further being injured.
A knuckle gouge can be painful to an opponent, but it can also be painful to your self. And it does not cause the shock of a more flat surface. Painful it might be, but it will usually not carry the impact energy to the brain or internal organs like a good slap or flat knuckle punch, like the vertical punch for instance. When the hand strikes, it should empart impact energy into the target, radiating through the target in a way as to shock the brain or internal organs which can disrupt an opponents ability to function, either by being knocked out or put into severe pain. The idea being not to just inflict pain, but to disable one effectively.

[SAAMAG]

Here's some particularly interesting videos from 1993. It was done by a late close quarters combat instructor.

You'll find some interesting and similar concepts to wing chun. Pay attention to his discussion of the punch, the targets, and the deflections (at the end of the vid).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFpEoMsW8kg