Fighting

[DBAC]

I was curious and wanted to ask in this open forum; how do you teach your students to fight?

Seems simple, but the question is much more complex. I consider styles such as Praying Mantis to be advanced fighting styles that require a greater deal of control than most mainstream styles. As such, the path to becoming a proficient fighter using PM is a very difficult one that very few can attain. More often than not I see schools teach the drills, forms, principles, etc., but once actual fighting commences most everything that was taught disappears.

So to expand on the above question:

What do you do to progress a student's training such that they can execute their techniques at full speed?

And a second part to the same question:

What do you do to progress a student's training such that they can use their skills regardless of the situation?

The intent of the second question is to understand how you train the mind and body to react using the principles of PM.

For example, suppose you take your student and do a basic drill (Au Lou Choi) that goes back and forth. Now suppose your change the drill midstream so that as your student is punching instead of countering with [Au Lau Choi] you execute [Diu Hyun Cheui]. How does your student react?

Note that I do not ask how he SHOULD react, but what will he actually do? Will he stand there confused or will he yield and counter with a different technique?

Now expand that into a freestyle training scenario where you could attack with anything, but you don't wait for your opponent to counter as you continue to attack. Will your opponent react using his skills to defend himself or will he fall back on his natural instincts? Will you as the attacker be able to feed off everything your opponent gives you to develop a new counter?

In PM the fighting should adhere to the principles and look like the forms. So back to my original question, how do you train your students to fight?

[mooyingmantis]

Great questions!

To train my students for fighting:
1. Stationary drills
2. Moving drills at every angle
3. Sparring each other
4. Bring in friends that train in other styles for sparring.
5. When I spar with them, they are allowed to go full contact on me with no padding for their hands and feet. Yes, sometimes I get hurt.

As far as a drill like au, lou, choi (ou, lou chui in Mandarin) we do not practice them much as defenses. We train them as attacks, attempting to steal the opponent's initiative and blasting away their guard. My philosophy is "those who wait, get served (hit)". Our fighting is VERY aggressive.

We also fight leitai (on a raised platform that is six feet in diameter). Very little room for running away or standing around blocking. Either hit, get hit, or get hit while hitting the opponent. This gives a little more taste of reality. When they master that, the platform gets smaller. :) Ever practice with the lead ankles tied together (the inner side of the foot touches the opponent)?

Sometimes they start fighting at contact range back to back. Grappling works the same way. No time to think, no room for error.

I guess its fair to say that in our school sparring IS self-defense. True, most Americans won't train this hard. Let em leave! I don't charge for lessons so I can't afford half-hearted peeps wasting my time.

So, anyone up for getting some leitai matches together? I have 5 acres of property with a platform and would be glad to host it. :)

[MightyB]

and an interesting question.

Something that I wrestle with now...

What elements have to be retained for it to be called or considered Mantis fighting? or how do you define Mantis fighting?

[B.Tunks]

In PM the fighting should adhere to the principles and look like the forms. So back to my original question, how do you train your students to fight?

I don't agree. It should look like the fundamentals but absolutely nothing at all like the forms. It has always been said (by our own predecessors) that fighting does not and should not resemble forms. Kungfu movies have a lot to answer for.

BT

[mooyingmantis]

and an interesting question.

Something that I wrestle with now...

What elements have to be retained for it to be called or considered Mantis fighting? or how do you define Mantis fighting?

I agree with Kevin, it doesn't have to look like the forms. However, IMHO it should reflect the strategies and keywords taught within the forms.

I guess it comes down to the question, "What makes Mantis strategies and methods unique?" After that is ascertained MightyB's question can be answered.

Richard

[DBAC]

Perhaps my statement about fighting looking like forms is being taken too literally. While I would agree that you will not execute a road from a form verbatim while fighting, you should move similarly as you do in your forms. The way you flow from technique to technique and the erratic motions of the monkey footwork are all demonstrated in the forms and that should correlate in your fighting as well.

In my opinion, the principles define mantis fighting. Of course the principles are hard to define themselves, but are the driving force behind the way we move and the techniques we use. In my experience, people take a liking to certain principles which they become strong in while the others take a backseat and are seldom demonstrated well. So now comes the question as to whether you train people to be effective with all principles so that they diversify their fighting or do you allow them to focus and settle in on what they believe works for them?

[mooyingmantis]

DBAC,

I attempt to give my students a thorough understanding of the keywords and how to apply them. As well as the hard and soft principles. However, I emphasize the need for them to find things that particularly click with them and master those things.
I am not saying this is the only approach or the best approach. Yet, it is the approach that has worked for me.

Richard

[Tainan Mantis]

I agree with Kevin, it doesn't have to look like the forms.

Actually, that was Brendan Tunks talking.
But, I'm like his little echo 'cuz I don't think that I have ever disagreed with a word that he has posted.

Mantis Boxing doesn't look like Mantis Forms.
A lot of drills that I do, while obviously mantis, are not in forms.

[mooyingmantis]

oops, sry for the mix-up, lol

Richard

[-N-]

I was curious and wanted to ask in this open forum; how do you teach your students to fight?
[...]
What do you do to progress a student's training such that they can execute their techniques at full speed?
[...]
What do you do to progress a student's training such that they can use their skills regardless of the situation?


Recent class was 3 hours of the following.

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=990694&postcount=4

[Dragonzbane76]

train the mechanics and increase muscle memory and then spar as close to the real thing as possible. simple.

[EarthDragon]

I have found that keeping it simple will always work in combat type situation.

i.e side block mantis grab and closing the center line with a flurry of follow up attacks will work.
The less application for this and for that you have to recall in a fighting situation the more successful you will be.
there are far too many things leanred in kung fu that will never be practiced to the point of mastery and it takes mastery or **** close to it, to use any given technique in a split second and make it work.

when we try to many complex things students get frqazzeled and forget how to move and instinct takes over.. So I teach instinct combined with mantis priciples and it it works very very well.

trust me I am a fighter and I dont form collect or any of that BS I have used my mantis to bounce, concert event security, teacjing the NYS police dept and body guarding. so "KIS" keep it simple

[Emeraldphoenix]

Simplicity is good.:eek:

[Emeraldphoenix]

I knew a guy that was very good at 1 tech. He could pull it off on just about anything you threw at him. Punch, kick block and counters . It didnt matter to him.

[EarthDragon]

exatcly emerald 1 mastered technique beats a 1000 known techniques

[Xutreck5601]

I don't agree. It should look like the fundamentals but absolutely nothing at all like the forms. It has always been said (by our own predecessors) that fighting does not and should not resemble forms. Kungfu movies have a lot to answer for.





BT

I certainly mean no disrespect by this question. But my curiosity begs me to ask. On some level are the fundamentals not derivatives of the forms, (I apologize, I am not a mantis student, I am a student of Taiji) or are the forms not derivitaive of the fundamentals? And if those are related, should those not shine through in some way during free sparring?

PS, saw your student's videos on youtube. They looked great. And those were only the intermediate ones! Thanks for posting.

[B.Tunks]

I certainly mean no disrespect by this question. But my curiosity begs me to ask. On some level are the fundamentals not derivatives of the forms, (I apologize, I am not a mantis student, I am a student of Taiji) or are the forms not derivitaive of the fundamentals? And if those are related, should those not shine through in some way during free sparring?

PS, saw your student's videos on youtube. They looked great. And those were only the intermediate ones! Thanks for posting.

Thanks for the positive feedback.

Regarding forms, they are built on elements of the fundamentals. It is very likely that in the beginning there were no forms.

BT

[EarthDragon]

we all know that forms hide the application so therefore if you fight and you look like you do when performing the sets your in trouble...

[Dragonzbane76]

I knew a guy that was very good at 1 tech. He could pull it off on just about anything you threw at him. Punch, kick block and counters . It didnt matter to him.


don"t fear the man who does 10,000 techniques a day. fear the man who does 10,000 of the same technique a day. :p or some horsesh!t like that. :p

[EarthDragon]

Fear not the man who does 10,000 techniques once......
Fear the man who does 1 technique 10,000 times

I think that is but who the hell knows

[mooyingmantis]

Fear not the man who does 10,000 techniques once......
Fear the man who does 1 technique 10,000 times

I think that is but who the hell knows

that has always been my philosophy. i tell students to MASTER 3 techniques and the principles behind them.

Richard