Accreditation? Is one ‘credential’ any better than another?” Prior to the developmen

[Minghequan]

Accreditation? Is one ‘credential’ any better than another?”

Prior to the development of modern martial arts there was no ranking system as we know it today. There was only the Chinese family-seniority system seen in many Chinese traditions.

With regards to ranking practices in the Orient, personality traits and conceptual and philosophical differences have prevented Chinese Boxing from achieving the one-style-fits-all mentality to allow for a unified system of ranking and credentials. This has not prevented various interpretations of Chinese Martial Arts from continuing to use varying aspects of the ranking accreditation system to their own benefit.

Accreditation and ranking credentials are subject to the relationship that exists between the Master and the student which is as it should be. No two ranks are exactly the same as each person brings to it their own personal preferences, physicality and personality.

In my own professional work I have touched on a variety of different fields. I've done my work in Youth Work (5 Years), without any professional credentials in Youth Work other than certification in Group Leadership; in this subject I am completely self-taught, and not very well taught. No one has ever asked me whether I had the appropriate credentials to operate a Youth Centre; the clients couldn't care less. What they want to know is what I had to say and do that could help them.

No one has ever objected to my right to speak and teach at martial arts workshops, classes and seminars.They want to know whether I am right or wrong, whether the subject is interesting or not, whether better approaches are possible - the teaching dealt with the subject, not with my right to discuss it.

I've repeatedly been challenged on the grounds of credentials, or asked, what special training do you have that entitles you to teach these matters. The assumption is that people like me, who are outsiders from a professional standpoint, are not entitled to speak on such things.

In true martial arts people are concerned with what you say and teach, not with your certification. But in order to speak about martial arts, you must have the proper understanding of the subject. This is found in on-going research and training (sweat!) not in pieces of paper. Particularly if you depart from the accepted framework of thinking. Generally speaking, it seems fair to say that the richer the intellectual substance of a field, the less there is a concern for credentials, and the greater is concern for content.

What truly matters is not who your trained with or were guided by, what rank they or you have nor who awarded same. What matters is the quality you bring to the arts and the character of people the training will ultimately produce. Within the White Crane Research Institute, we make good people, better.

[bawang]

Accreditation? Is one ‘credential’ any better than another?”

Prior to the development of modern martial arts there was no ranking system as we know it today. There was only the Chinese family-seniority system seen in many Chinese traditions.



ming army using qijiguang doctrine has nine levels
win a fight be promoted
lose a fight be demoted

in kung fu credentials and reputation was gained by fighting
fight good be famous fight bad be a nobody

[SPJ]

In the army, you are promoted by how many enemy you kill.

You have to kill about 500 enemy soldiers to be a general. Of course, you have to survive or not killed.--

the belt system and ranking system are from kendo, judo,--

they codify everything or standardize every thing

that is how they get popular thruout the world and into olympics

b/c every one may play and advance to a known level/difficulty agreed upon by all

but the very essence of codification and standardization also kills or stifles the arts.

----

[SPJ]

once you have codes and accreditations

there are corruptions.

who decide who win in TKD, Judo, ---matches

the judges may be biased or even bought off--

-----

other forum members may know more--

[TenTigers]

in Mo-Lum, nobody recognizes credentials, titles, certifications, etc. They recognize your intent, your integrity and your hand. All that other stuff? Anyone can create a federation, association, ranking system, etc. Anyone with printshop, can create certificates. It means nothing, except to the unknowing public consumer.
But, I sit and talk with you (yum-cha) get to know you, touch hands with you, see how you react with different people, in different circumstances, talk to those who know you for a long time, then I know you. Then, all that wall paper is just for outsiders.

[Pork Chop]

reminds me of my job field "information security"
i used to work with the guys/gals that actually wrote the policy
but never went out and got the certifications
don't have a terribly hard time getting hired by the folks that understand my experience
but going outside that small circle of folks, my resume isn't even considered
even had some insults hurled my way during phone interviews for that reason
will probably get the cert before i try interviewing again for another position
but the cert itself really doesn't affect my ability to do the job

when it comes to martial arts,
i've got a cert
but it isn't a widely known one
so if i were trying to start my own gym, my experience would carry much more weight

[Lokhopkuen]

in Mo-Lum, nobody recognizes credentials, titles, certifications, etc. They recognize your intent, your integrity and your hand. All that other stuff? Anyone can create a federation, association, ranking system, etc. Anyone with printshop, can create certificates. It means nothing, except to the unknowing public consumer.
But, I sit and talk with you (yum-cha) get to know you, touch hands with you, see how you react with different people, in different circumstances, talk to those who know you for a long time, then I know you. Then, all that wall paper is just for outsiders.

Stated so well I have nothing to add.

(what he said) :D

Okay one thing:
Whom outside of my teacher would be qualified accredit me for my learnings?
NO ONE.....

[Minghequan]

Great to hear your views regarding this subject. I am so pleased to hear that the majority of you do not care for the matter of accreditation/credentials. its highly refreshing and inspiring to hear.

Having come up through the ranks since childhood (during the seventies) and having stayed active for the past 39 years or so --- along with going to extremes to better understand what has remained terribly ambiguous, unsystematized and relatively incoherent (particularly with regards to the study of Taolu/Xing) I and those who choose to walk this path with me remain happy. I see myself as a seasoned veteran, no longer willing to accept and or swallow the ignorance, arrogance and incongruous practices so widespread in this tradition. I’d guess that the idea of “legit,” or “authentic” martial arts, is probably based upon the Chinese tradition (Okinawan/Japanese also have a similar motif) --- pedigree/lineage; i.e., if your style IS NOT connected directly (or possibly even indirectly) to some “original” Chinese/Asian tradition then it's NOT legit/authentic! The idea of functionality has long been reason for some of us seniors to re-evaluate many of the long-established practices of traditional Wushu. Much of it has to do with the contextual premise that technique is supposed to work against. Such “re-evaluation” has, without question, given birth to a myriad of eclectic Wushu-like “traditions.” Some of this Western-based eclecticism has been done within the accepted boundaries of Chinese cultural landscape and social mindset, some has not and then there’s stuff that is way out there. I am sure that one could even argue that even the most accepted Chinese traditions (Wushu, Gongfu) are eclectic by nature. The Martial Arts industry (of which Wushu is a part) is largely unregulated. Based purely on this one issue alone I don’t believe there’s anything stopping anyone “making up something” and calling it whatever they want. My ongoing comparative study with progenitor forms (Fuzhou, YongChun, Shaolin), has given me much to consider when trying to accurately evaluate the essence, energy and spirit of same. I am largely a self made man and proud of it. A seeker not a follower.

[Lokhopkuen]

People "make it up and call it what they want" quite a bit actually but thanks to an increased access to information and broader communications fewer and fewer of these types are able to propagate their nonsense. I like it when I see post on this forum where some seeker asks about the background and reputation of Grand Master So and So of the Shaolin Ninja Association:D

[uki]

the best credentials are the ones we give ourselves, afterall, we are the only ones that truly matter to us. :D

[B-Rad]

As long as someone isn't going out of their way to present false credentials, I'm not overly concerned. Unless I was doing some kind of research I guess and needed something very specific.

[SPJ]

certificate of completion of training

these are generally acceptable

1. complete basic training,

2. complete single posture training

3. complete tao lu training

they only means that the students received instructions and learned the course from a teacher.

but if he or she is good at using these in real fight is a whole different story

or if he or she really understands all the theory, principles and applications is a whole different story

---

[bawang]

northern martial arts was focused on the spear and 99% of the spear was six harmony
today almsot every single surviving martial art's spear is a variation of six harmony spear

quanfa is much harder to verify because it was not important

today the names for 50% of the moves of weapon taolu is wu hua "flower twirling"
weapon forms with up to 100 moves might have 10 to 30 moves thats actual technique the rest is filler for performance

[taai gihk yahn]

I like it when I see post on this forum where some seeker asks about the background and reputation of Grand Master So and So of the Shaolin Ninja Association:D
oh yeah - it's like "time out from all flame wars for a collective discrediting of the shaolin ninja in question"!

[taai gihk yahn]

northern martial arts was focused on the spear and 99% of the spear was six harmony
today almsot every single surviving martial art's spear is a variation of six harmony spear

quanfa is much harder to verify because it was not important

today the names for 50% of the moves of weapon taolu is wu hua "flower twirling"
weapon forms with up to 100 moves might have 10 to 30 moves thats actual technique the rest is filler for performance

and I wonder to what degree the spear that we see now was a descendent of a foot infantryman's long pike;



it seems to me that "ancient" warfare had three preferred weapons: long range projectile (archery, any other machine-flung ballistic, including rockets), long-range ground (pike men) and calvary, which is how the dao was used, because it was a slashing weapon;

my sense is that most of what we see now is derivative of this; the other "class" of weapons were for personal, urban use, and often needed to be concealable;

comments? (only the credentialed need reply)

[bawang]

and I wonder to what degree the spear that we see now was a descendent of a foot infantryman's long pike;



it seems to me that "ancient" warfare had three preferred weapons: long range projectile (archery, any other machine-flung ballistic, including rockets), long-range ground (pike men) and calvary, which is how the dao was used, because it was a slashing weapon;

my sense is that most of what we see now is derivative of this; the other "class" of weapons were for personal, urban use, and often needed to be concealable;

comments? (only the credentialed need reply)ming dynasty saw the end of mass attrition warfare and beginning of squad tactics because of fast developing technology


after the qing dynasty the manchus used chinese soldiers only as human shields and all knowledge and record of advancements in warfare stops from there



and I wonder to what degree the spear that we see now was a descendent of a foot infantryman's long pike;



pike is the super heavy ganzi from hebei and henan. the 13 ganzi from chen taiji is a pike

[mooyingmantis]

Minghequan,
I agree with your assessment. In praying mantis kung fu even the easily recognizable lineage holders do not accept the legitimacy of each other's students. It was the same way in Hung Gar for years. People prefer to set up their own little kingdoms. So you can train with a well know Master for years and still be considered "illegitimate" by the rest of the community.
Even in other fields in which I have worked, the "paper trained" were often the most clueless workers when it came to getting the job done. So sad!

Richard

[kfson]

My previous Chinese Tai Chi instructor told me, "It is you Americans who need rankings because of your insecurities."

[Minghequan]

My previous Chinese Tai Chi instructor told me, "It is you Americans who need rankings because of your insecurities."

Kfson,

Its not just Americans.

As one who spent a reasonable amount of time of my personal involvement within the martial arts (I’ve been involved in the martial arts for 32+ years) looking to rank and titles, I can honestly say without any doubt or hesitation that I think the whole issue of rank within the modern perspective of the martial arts is nothing but bull! In saying so, I mean no offence to anyone within the martial arts world, I am simply stating a personal view..

Firstly lets examine briefly just what is a rank in the context of the martial arts. It is a mark of the personal relationship that exists between the teacher and the individual student. It is based on the teacher’s knowledge of his/her teachings and or art and the skill and personal advancement made by that of the student within same. It has no relationship to those outside of that style, group, association or Wushu Guan (although many will seek to make it an issue).

Titles are equally the same: representative of the relationship developed between the individual teacher and student.

My personal view of ranks, well honestly, up until recently, I thought them to have value, depth and meaning. In many ways, I guess I still do. I am proud of the ranks I received while on Okinawa from my Sensei and from China from my Sifu. Not because of the rank mind you, but because of what they represent … the relationship developed between two people! They are a wonderful cultural link and true works of art. My former teacher is a master calligrapher of the highest degree! But that’s where it ends.

I have touted these ranks in the past that is true. But the truth is I am a “nobody’ in terms of the martial arts and contrary to what others “out there” may think, say, write or spew forth, this is exactly what I am. If I am to be viewed as “good” (whatever that means!) at what I do or teach within the martial arts then this is up to others to decide after meeting me personally, spending time with me both on and off the school floor. The simple honest truth is If you are “good” people will know by the way you treat others in everyday life, not by the rank and Sash/Belt you may or may not wear.

For those people who have sought me out and who are still following my teachings, I am nothing important nor do I claim to be. They know my worth as a person and within the martial arts and they understand the views I hold true to. If I am afforded any respect by my students it is because I have personally earned it via my actions and teachings and not by imposing ranks upon them as a means of boosting myself.

To me the martial arts are something I love doing. It is not how I make my living so I have very little commercial interest other than the continued up-keep of running the Wushu Guan. The martial arts and my involvement in same is a personal pursuit.

The same goes for titles. Do I have a “title?” Yes. Do I force this down my student’s throats? No! Just about all of my students call me by my first name in the Wushu Guan and I would not have it any other way. My students are my friends. Some in the martial arts would say this is offensive, others would say that its not correct etiquette and they may well be right but by whose views and standards?

Anyone “out there” in the big old wide world of martial arts are more than welcome to come to my home or dojo for a visit. Be it as a friendly visit or simply to satisfy their individual curiosity. I have no grudge to bear against anyone and I think that my wife and I make reasonable hosts. You can respect me. You can like me. You can hate me. Either way the decision will be yours. You can make your decisions as what rank you would like to "label me" after meeting, talking with and or training alongside of me. I’ll even shout for the beers (although I’m a Bourbon man myself!).

My rank? I have none. Why? Why not! It’s not important to those outside of my association / style. What is important is what type of person I am and I think I’m doing okay in that area.

My ideas and way of teaching are to some unique, often going against the views of others within the martial arts world today. To others, they may seem “off the planet”. To a great many “martial artists” I know I’m seen as being a 'whacko lunatic' type of character. A rebel. Many dismiss my views as being bulldust!. But that’s okay, each holds true to his own views, nothing wrong with this as this is the way of the world and human nature.

Many have attempted to assassinate my character as a person involved within the martial arts. And I wish I had a dollar for every martial artist that has belittled my views and my teachings! I have had my name posted on numerous Internet boards, sometimes in a positive manner, often in a humorous way and yes even in a political manner, in turn revealing the politics and insecurities of others.

Some even admire me for what they view as being my commitment and enthusiasm to martial arts (which is really just one of my loves in life). My message is simple:- It's not the style. It's not to be found in one's fame or lack of it. it's not about having thousands of students and schools all over the world. It's not about being a "big gun". It's not about having a certificate from Okinawa, Japan, China or downtown Cobar for that matter! It's about friendship and living your life as best as you can. It's about being strong enough in your heart and mind to take a stand for what you believe in, even when it goes against popular opinion, and to hold on to what you believe in, all in the face of adversity. It's about people, not the martial arts. It's to be found in making good people, better.

Let’s be bloody honest. In today’s martial arts world, ranks are dime a dozen. They are like opinions and bums …. everyone’s got one!

And it almost goes without saying that many ranks out there should be introduced to the respected bums as a means of toilet paper.

The “human” element of the martial arts is being lost. Very few schools view their teachings as human relationships. To many (not all) it can be business or politics. I’m not against the business of teaching the martial arts, not at all. I just think that people come first.

The old arts were not so much about style but about people. Diploma’s, certificates, scrolls, documents and titles mean bugger all without the human element!

Diploma’s, ranks, certificates and titles don’t make people. People make people!

Who you learned from, what you learned, all these things matter little. What is important that you have learned something good or bad and can make your own decisions as to what is right or wrong. No piece of paper or the words negative or positive of others can take away from this truth.

[Penfold]

"the best credentials are the ones we give ourselves, afterall, we are the only ones that truly matter to us."

SO TRUE :o

[kfson]

Obama should start a new federal department for martial arts testing and accreditation.

We don't want anyone to get away with any do-do.

[bawang]

ban martial arts in america then we will c who iz hardcor
srsly

[sanjuro_ronin]

Credentials, lineages, FLUFF !!!
It is all about what YOU can do, NOT what your Teacher can or could, not about what a classmate can or could, it is about what YOU can do, period.

[Blacktiger]

Yes true - but you want to make sure that the knowledge you are getting is of a high standard.

If your teacher is feeding you peanuts the end result is always going to be a monkey. It makes no difference what you do if the knowledge is poor - except for quitting and going somewhere else.

I think that is when lineages and credentials can be handy to cut the rubbish down a bit. There are always those who will come up with fluffed up credentials but then there are others who are the real deal - its just a case of being able to identify them... and for the newbie kung fu student could be a bit of a mine field.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

Credentials are marketing. Ranks can be useful though.

Dividing juniors from seniors in terms of the hours spent training at the club can streamline training: we can focus one the juniors as a group, the seniors as a group, or the group as a whole. We can challenge the juniors by pairing them off against a senior during some sparring sessions.

Another way would be to establish an in-house sparring ladder. Rank is determined by who is at the top. The higher rank you have, the more mental/behavioural training occurs. The lower rank you have, the more physical training occurs. This is just an idea I have - I'm still brewing over the pros and cons of a system like this.

[David Jamieson]

I possess several rank certificates for 3 different martial arts and instructors certificates as well.

They mean nothing outside the context of the arts themselves and the people directly involved in the same styles.

I guess in a global sense, my kungfu accreditation has less street cred than the tkd certs! Kungfu is more fragmented organization-wise whereas TKD has 2 huge bodies of governance and everything falls under those.

It's funny to me that the most credible certs have the least value to me personally as I have zero to do with the ITF or WTF!

Anyway, I keep mine tucked away in a cupboard. lol

[pazman]

I'll go ahead and answer the title question.

Yes, there are credentials that are better than others.

If a guy introduces himself at a 5th degree black belt in Judo, I can call some people quite easily and have that verified. If true, a 5th degree in Judo would certainly mean something skill wise. If two Judo players wanted to compare skills, they could so, rather objectively, at a competition.

If a guy introduces himself as the master/inheritor of an ancient gong fu system that he learned in rural China, well, his claims are not as easily verified. Furthermore, there is no objective way of measuring his fighting skills short of challenging him to a brawl.

[David Jamieson]

I'll go ahead and answer the title question.

Yes, there are credentials that are better than others.

If a guy introduces himself at a 5th degree black belt in Judo, I can call some people quite easily and have that verified. If true, a 5th degree in Judo would certainly mean something skill wise. If two Judo players wanted to compare skills, they could so, rather objectively, at a competition.

If a guy introduces himself as the master/inheritor of an ancient gong fu system that he learned in rural China, well, his claims are not as easily verified. Furthermore, there is no objective way of measuring his fighting skills short of challenging him to a brawl.

semantics. the 5th black in judo might suck because he has failed to practice since getting his fifth.

ergo his certificate of rank is paper and worthless in context to skill assessment.

besides, you say so yourself. you fight in either scenario you've given as teh true assessment.

so, it is all about the hands and never about stories and certs.

[Lucas]

so DJ are you telling the that the jesus quan guys cedentials are no good?!?! :eek:

[David Jamieson]

so DJ are you telling the that the jesus quan guys cedentials are no good?!?! :eek:

I think that was made quite clear to him. Don't you?

[Lucas]

haha ya i guess so. i just have a habit of kicking dead horses...

[pazman]

semantics. the 5th black in judo might suck because he has failed to practice since getting his fifth.

ergo his certificate of rank is paper and worthless in context to skill assessment.

besides, you say so yourself. you fight in either scenario you've given as teh true assessment.

so, it is all about the hands and never about stories and certs.

The Judo 5th degree would have a competition record and a testing record to prove his understanding of his martial art.

Traditional gongfu guy might not.

Which would you choose as a teacher?

[David Jamieson]

The Judo 5th degree would have a competition record and a testing record to prove his understanding of his martial art.

Traditional gongfu guy might not.

Which would you choose as a teacher?

depends on the hands.

The competition record is a piece of paper, I don't know which one is legit or not.

The judo guy mighta been good, but is now a slacker as for teaching ability, that has absolutely zero to do with competition records. :-)

I'd choose the one I was most comfortable with as a person and who could demonstrate knowledge and skill readily. I really don't care about paperwork.

It doesn't mean a dang thing in martial arts.

It means something in academia, which MA is not.

[Lucas]

thats why i only learn from ex cons who receive extended sentences for excessive violence.

[David Jamieson]

thats why i only learn from ex cons who receive extended sentences for excessive violence.

they're crappy teachers. most of them can barely read, I doubt they can actually transmit a cohesive system of martial arts.

Oh wait...

[Lucas]

hahahaha, almost spit water all over my screen.

[mooyingmantis]

Credentials may mean something at the moment you get them, but what about six months, a year, or ten years later? I have been teaching Chinese and Japanese MAs for about 32 years. Four peeps have earned black sashes and four peeps have earned black belts during that time. Out of eight peeps I only know of three that can still do what I taught them, the way I taught them. So do the others' rank really mean anything? Not to me.

Richard

[David Jamieson]

Credentials may mean something at the moment you get them, but what about six months, a year, or ten years later? I have been teaching Chinese and Japanese MAs for about 32 years. Four peeps have earned black sashes and four peeps have earned black belts during that time. Out of eight peeps I only know of three that can still do what I taught them, the way I taught them. So do the others' rank really mean anything? Not to me.

Richard

applied practice and continuing education is the key.

anyone who rests on their laurels will get their comeuppance! lol

[pazman]

David, I think your approach is fantastic considering that most of us on this forum have extensive experience with martial arts; we should be able to recognize good martial arts.

Unfortunately, most people with no martial arts experience can be easily impressed. Shave an athletic guy's head, dress him up in orange robes, teach him some tiger poses and I guarantee he can find some foreign students here in China.

Having respectable organizations with objective standards to vouch for people help to ensure at least a minimal quality in the martial arts. There are far too many people in the US now (I guess it would be same anywhere, though) who think they are qualified to coach martial arts, or have really goofy ideas of what martial arts are about. Go to any gym, dojo, or guan that have coaches backed by respectable organizations and with verifiable experience and a lot of that bullshyt fades away pretty quickly.

[David Jamieson]

David, I think your approach is fantastic considering that most of us on this forum have extensive experience with martial arts; we should be able to recognize good martial arts.

Unfortunately, most people with no martial arts experience can be easily impressed. Shave an athletic guy's head, dress him up in orange robes, teach him some tiger poses and I guarantee he can find some foreign students here in China.

Having respectable organizations with objective standards to vouch for people help to ensure at least a minimal quality in the martial arts. There are far too many people in the US now (I guess it would be same anywhere, though) who think they are qualified to coach martial arts, or have really goofy ideas of what martial arts are about. Go to any gym, dojo, or guan that have coaches backed by respectable organizations and with verifiable experience and a lot of that bullshyt fades away pretty quickly.

In some instances, I believe your point is true, but unfortunately, I do not think that is the case at all times.

Some people have magnificent credentials, but their peccadilloes concerning acquisition of money goes contrary to what those credentials represent.

These days, there are too many athletic youngsters who proclaim themselves sifu without having the trips around the sun to work some wisdom into them. I appreciate their skills, but they are not sifu in my eyes. that takes more than just the skill set. Heck, that's true of coach or sensei or guru as well.

It takes time to develop an eye towards what is good martial arts and what is not good martial arts. It is not unlike developing an ear to what is well played and executed musical pieces and what is not.

Not having experience with time is a huge factor. Having the experience from time is a huge factor. A greater factor than any credential.

A doctor who has held his credential and practice for 20 years has much more solid grounding than a doctor who is fresh from uni. Both hold the same accreditation.