Bruce Lee?

[kfson]

I rewatched one of his movies the other night... you know, the one in the ice plant. Well this might p.o. some people, but, is it me or was Bruce Lee just mediocre as an M.A.?

Compare him to Jet Li, Jackie Chan, or Tony Jaa.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I rewatched one of his movies the other night... you know, the one in the ice plant. Well this might p.o. some people, but, is it me or was Bruce Lee just mediocre as an M.A.?

Compare him to Jet Li, Jackie Chan, or Tony Jaa.

Context is everything and so is choreography !

[David Jamieson]

Isaac Newton once said: "we only see so far because we stand on the shoulders of giants".

The Marx brothers were genius in their day, but now, they fuel nostalgia and are not cutting edge at all.

Max Baer was the HW champ of the world in 1935 or so. A fairly average heavyweight would wipe the floor with max today.

The fastest man in the world in 1972 would be shamefully slow compared to Usain Bolt of Jamaica today.

By todays standards, yes, Bruce Lee is quite mediocre as a martial artist. It's quite clear he would be a stain after having to deal with some of the world fighters these days.

This is exactly how things should be.

When it starts going backwards, that's when we need to start being concerned.

Oh wait, it has already begun! lol

[goju]

nah i dont think so i like all those guys but bruce just has so much charisma and a larger than life presence that they lack

and i never get tired of seeing him kicks bob walls ass in his movies lol

[sanjuro_ronin]

Isaac Newton once said: "we only see so far because we stand on the shoulders of giants".

The Marx brothers were genius in their day, but now, they fuel nostalgia and are not cutting edge at all.

Max Baer was the HW champ of the world in 1935 or so. A fairly average heavyweight would wipe the floor with max today.

The fastest man in the world in 1972 would be shamefully slow compared to Usain Bolt of Jamaica today.

By todays standards, yes, Bruce Lee is quite mediocre as a martial artist. It's quite clear he would be a stain after having to deal with some of the world fighters these days.

This is exactly how things should be.

When it starts going backwards, that's when we need to start being concerned.

Oh wait, it has already begun! lol

CRAZY TALK !!!!

:p

[hskwarrior]

you missing the point. bruce lee is NOT our time....its a time long ago. and at that time bruce was better than alot of people. but he was NO god.

[SifuYui]

For those of us who grew up during this time (early 70's), Bruce Lee was it. No matter what has happened since in the media or in real life (wire work, MMA) has not come close to the mania this one man created. But everything must be taken in context within the time period it happened. The fighters of that the time said Bruce was good and had respect for him - Chuck Norris, Joe Lewis, Mike Stone, Gene LeBell, etc. For people to say he wouldn't have beaten so-and-so today is a moot point because these people have had the opportunity to study how Bruce trained. Isn't that how the Gracies got beat, once people studied how they trained?

As for movie choreography, did you know Bruce choreographed his own fight scenes from day one? Look at how different his fight scenes are compared to the ones without him in The Big Boss and Fist of Fury.

So I'd say he'd kick Jet Li, Jackie Chan, and Tony Jaa's butts.

Yui

[sanjuro_ronin]

Bruce's fight scenes in "return of the dragon are works of poetry.

[goju]

you missing the point. bruce lee is NOT our time....its a time long ago. and at that time bruce was better than alot of people. but he was NO god.


of course he isnt a god but then again so isnt anyone else either

however the mans impact on martial arts was incredible

and theres no point in comparing him to anyone today the mans dead so its nothing but poitnless speculation that goes no where

[kfson]

These guys weren't in the movies, but is time always retrograde:
http://www.egreenway.com/taichichuan/images/bagua37.gif
http://www.egreenway.com/taichichuan/images/sun44a.jpg

[goju]

i never liked people saying "by the todays standards so and so wouldnt be that good"

i always personally thought it was a rediculous notion

sure some martial artists from the past wouldnt fare well but of course theres also plenty of them that would against modern martial artists

[Yum Cha]

I have a fundamental issue with equating movie choreography with martial arts skill to begin with.

Following that logic, any wu shu player would have to be considered patently superior to any other stylist.

As a couple of people have mentioned before, the logic of the comparison is flawed.

[David Jamieson]

i never liked people saying "by the todays standards so and so wouldnt be that good"

i always personally thought it was a rediculous notion

sure some martial artists from the past wouldnt fare well but of course theres also plenty of them that would against modern martial artists

speculation only of course.

but looking back, i think the ratio of those that would do well vs a fighter of today would be small.

More like some would fare well and most would do poorly.

We are simply bigger, better, stronger, faster.
We eat better, we train better, we are not encumbered by disease or deficiency and so on.

We live longer naturally these days and therefore have longer to develop skills into viable abilities.

there is myriad reason why the ancients weren't quite so able as we moderns are.

Of course we have abandoned some of the goodness, but mostly, we've built on things and made them much better through the adaptation.

As for the old men, well, they are old men, I doubt they were as good as the stories that are told about them are anyway.

[goju]

speculation only of course.

but looking back, i think the ratio of those that would do well vs a fighter of today would be small.

More like some would fare well and most would do poorly.

We are simply bigger, better, stronger, faster.
We eat better, we train better, we are not encumbered by disease or deficiency and so on.

We live longer naturally these days and therefore have longer to develop skills into viable abilities.

there is myriad reason why the ancients weren't quite so able as we moderns are.

Of course we have abandoned some of the goodness, but mostly, we've built on things and made them much better through the adaptation.

As for the old men, well, they are old men, I doubt they were as good as the stories that are told about them are anyway.


oh yes well when we are talking about primitive chinese ethnic groups who practiced a proto kung fu in caves then of course modern martial artists have an advatages lol

but when its people like oyama or kimura or lee i think its a bit rash to say they woudlnt do well in this time after all they havent been gone for THAT long and it snot liek weve grown extra limbs to fight with since then

[bawang]

oh yes well when we are talking about primitive chinese ethnic groups who practiced a proto kung fu in caves
i fuk ur mother

[TenTigers]

There will never be another Bruce Lee.
(although Donnie Yen and Tony Jaa are great)
There will never be another Sean Connery
(although Daniel Craig is an awesome Bond)
There will never be another Eddie Van Halen
(but Steve Vai and Joe Satriani are amazing)
There will never be another Hendrix
(although SRV kix azz)
There will never be another Jesus
(although Chuck Norris is da Bomb)
There will never be another Elvis
(although Ozzy Osbourne...ok, now we're getting silly...)

[TenTigers]

There will never be another lkfmdc
(although according to HW108.....)

[goju]

i fuk ur mother
you molest your couch pillows on friday nights

[goju]

There will never be another lkfmdc
(although according to HW108.....)

there will never be another goju or ten tigers either
we are all one of a kind

[bawang]

you molest your couch pillows on friday nights

i call her wanda

[Dragonzbane76]

i think jamie said it best. "we stand on the shoulders of giants" pretty much hits it on the head, my belief as well.

[bawang]

kung fu people stand on shoulders of a midget
bruce lee sux boo hiss

[David Jamieson]

wanda?

really?

what an odd name for a couch.

Mine's Sylvia. A much better name for a couch.
You should consider changing it.

:D

p.s I spit water when I read that...

[David Jamieson]

kung fu people stand on shoulders of a midget
bruce lee sux boo hiss

still, even on a midget we're a little taller.

get it?

"a little" taller.

omg I'm turning into Mickey. :eek:

:p

[bawang]

he couldnt even get a white woman the real way. he married his student. thats low man. REAL LOW

and wtf is wit that high piched scream. it maeks me cringe in shame

[Pork Chop]

Max Baer was the HW champ of the world in 1935 or so. A fairly average heavyweight would wipe the floor with max today.


shows what you know
dude killed someone in the ring with a single shot
only way that would happen today is if one of the klitschkos made one of these muscle-bound, no-gas-tank having cans actually work the whole 12 rounds.

[Lucas]

although we would all get owned by a standard swordsman witha bit of experience from a few hundred years ago....

[Sardinkahnikov]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1w9bRQTHd9g&feature=related

Supposedly, this is some footage of a training session between Bruce Lee and Taky Kimura in the early 60's. What do you think?

[uki]

he brought a concept and applied it to martial arts...

[Lucas]

**** your all just fleas and im the big dog, and ill scratch you off my balls with my mother****ing paws!

[David Jamieson]

shows what you know
dude killed someone in the ring with a single shot
only way that would happen today is if one of the klitschkos made one of these muscle-bound, no-gas-tank having cans actually work the whole 12 rounds.

yeah, he faced a few tomato cans didn't he. lol

I just picked Max outta my hat.
Without digressing into reminiscing about dead people and what they might have been, I still think that boxing has improved vastly in the last generation or two.
The previous one being built from now is the Ali/Foreman/Spinks/Leonard et al legacy.

All of those guys measured up and beyond the generation before them too.

It is to be expected that we grow and get better at all things.

Nothing stays the same. To do so is to stagnate, die and be forgotten.

[Pork Chop]

when it comes to old school boxing i'll admit i'm a bit biased.
but the plain fact is that fighters had more fights back then and there were just more fighters. i remember reading a statistic that there were more pro boxers in nyc back in the 50s than currently in the whole US. not only that, but people were just plain tougher. read dempsey's biography some time if you don't believe me.

max baer was 66w-13l-0d
frankie campbell was 33w-3l-2d with 26 KOs when baer killed him in the ring; by today's standards he'd at least have an alphabet belt or two. "single punch" was probably a bit of an exaggeration, though baer had one of the hardest right hands in the business.
EDIT: can you honestly put baer lower than some of the guys klitschko's lost to?

some guys i think would absolutely destroy new guys:
henry armstrong (welter) 149w-21l-10d
sugar ray robinson (middle) 173w-19l-6d
archie moore (light heavy) 185w-23l-11d
jack dempsey (heavy) 62w-6l-9d

it's telling that a lot of guys that are successful now are considered "throwback" (hopkins, toney, pac, mayweather, etc).

[SPJ]

I rewatched one of his movies the other night... you know, the one in the ice plant. Well this might p.o. some people, but, is it me or was Bruce Lee just mediocre as an M.A.?

Compare him to Jet Li, Jackie Chan, or Tony Jaa.

at the time

Bruce Lee said the real fight should be ended with one blow/strike. one kick, one punch or one move, and the opponent is out.

The Chinese MA cinema at the time, you would keep on fighitng and fighting 25 min later, you are still fighting with the same guy, no serious injuries occur and yes many and many moves and countermoves are crossed hand--

it was "shock" or wakening or rethinking of rendering of CMA related movies

guess what in the beginning, BL would take out the guards one strike one out at a time, but when met with better guards, he needed more moves
and the final fight with shih jian guess what it is still 10 min or longer fights--

[SPJ]

Jet Li was a wushu champ at 13, He played Shaolin temple and made it big.

later he replayed huang hui hong in HK cinema and inspired the audience in the 1990s.

---

Jackie Chan is all about stunts and no substitutes. JC was very good at editing to make fighting scenes not boring but fun to watch. JC is always a comedian at heart.
He like to bring laughters to the world.

----

wire fu and CGI revolutionarized kung fu cinema, people has no kung fu may play kung fu such as matrix----

--

[SPJ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9d1lCv-mqI

:)

[Eddie]

Dont you guys know... Bruce Lee won MANY fighting competitions in the USA, and was un defeated as a figter. NO ONE can beat him. He is a CHINESE hero. Oh.. and its not true that he was born in the USA (or HK), he was actually born in Foshan. The west (and HK) just want to claim him for themselves because he was so famous!!

You guys know NOTHING! Chinese people know everything about MA.

... tho before Deng's reform no one in china even knew about BL.

:rolleyes:

[Scott R. Brown]

Everyone here is making the same mistake. You are comparing someone of yester-year to those of today, except that if the men of yester-year were here today they would have the same benefits of progress that the men of today have.

Think how good Bruce Lee, and other famous fighters, would have been if they had had Bruce Lee's, Max Baer's, Jackie Chan's, Sugar Ray Robinson's, Jet Li's, etc. legacies to learn from and inspire and motivate them!

These men would also have had the benefits of today's training protocols, therapeutic recovery methods, medical interventions, diets, etc to assist them in their training and careers.

The defining characteristic about about these men is not their abilities, but what their abilities were built FROM and that was competitiveness, drive, work ethic, etc.

Each of these legends of the past would likely become legends today because what makes a person a legend is not what they accomplished but the personal characteristics that motivated and drove them to excel others.

Whew......now I have to lie down and rest for a few hours, being serious is much more difficult than it looks. It is much easier being a smart aleck!!!:p

[Yum Cha]

Dont you guys know... Bruce Lee won MANY fighting competitions in the USA, and was un defeated as a figter.

Name them.

He sparred once at an Ed Parker tournament in full pads as a demo, but never fought in any of the tournaments of the day. As far as I remember, or have seen documented.

He did some alleged brawling in his youth, between dance competitions.

And then there is the legend of the Louie Jack Man fight....hmmmm, 2 bob each way on that one.

He was an actor. Actors get lots of takes to pummel guys that stand up to be pummeled. You can't judge his skill from his movies.

Just sayin....

Regardless of the truth, there just isn't proof to support your claim.

Everybody loves Siu Loong, fair enough, but lets stick to reality.

[Eddie]

im losing my edge. I was trying to be sarcastic. This is what the people here believe.

thought the :rolleyes: at the end made it clear :cool:

[sanjuro_ronin]

Everyone here is making the same mistake. You are comparing someone of yester-year to those of today, except that if the men of yester-year were here today they would have the same benefits of progress that the men of today have.

Think how good Bruce Lee, and other famous fighters, would have been if they had had Bruce Lee's, Max Baer's, Jackie Chan's, Sugar Ray Robinson's, Jet Li's, etc. legacies to learn from and inspire and motivate them!

These men would also have had the benefits of today's training protocols, therapeutic recovery methods, medical interventions, diets, etc to assist them in their training and careers.

The defining characteristic about about these men is not their abilities, but what their abilities were built FROM and that was competitiveness, drive, work ethic, etc.

Each of these legends of the past would likely become legends today because what makes a person a legend is not what they accomplished but the personal characteristics that motivated and drove them to excel others.

Whew......now I have to lie down and rest for a few hours, being serious is much more difficult than it looks. It is much easier being a smart aleck!!!:p

Well said Bigius ****ius.

[kfson]

Babe Ruth wouldn't break 100 b.a. today, what a lard butt.

[Scott R. Brown]

Babe Ruth wouldn't break 100 b.a. today, what a lard butt.

That is mere specubation, the fact is no alcoholic lard butt would make it into the pros today, but who knows what he would do were he alive today.

In his day you could get away with it. Today, he would have either trained in a meaningful manner or not have played in the pros.

If he trained in a meaningful manner it is likely he would still be a top flight player!:)

[Pork Chop]

Name them.

He sparred once at an Ed Parker tournament in full pads as a demo, but never fought in any of the tournaments of the day. As far as I remember, or have seen documented.

He did some alleged brawling in his youth, between dance competitions.

And then there is the legend of the Louie Jack Man fight....hmmmm, 2 bob each way on that one.

He was an actor. Actors get lots of takes to pummel guys that stand up to be pummeled. You can't judge his skill from his movies.

Just sayin....

Regardless of the truth, there just isn't proof to support your claim.

Everybody loves Siu Loong, fair enough, but lets stick to reality.

he supposedly had some boxing fight(s) too


He enrolled at St Francis Xavier where a teacher encouraged him to enter the inter-school boxing championships. He went through the elimination rounds easily, then faced the three-time champion Gary Elms from the rival British King George V High School. Bruce won by knock out in the third round.

[TenTigers]

I met a guy several years back, (a well-known MA Sensei in the area)who claimed to have sparred Bruce Lee. I'm thinking,Cool. I guess it could've happened. The guy is much older than me, and quite possibly could've been around when Bruce was in NY... until he tells his story.
He said he fought him at Madison Square Garden...but Bruce beat him.'He's got that sidekick, y'know. His side kick is really fast. You can't stop it."
Since he was with his student, I didn't want to say anything.
Sheesh!

[Pork Chop]

... The guy is much older than me, and quite possibly could've been around when Bruce was in NY...

probably Alzheimer's, that wasn't his student, that was an escort from the nursing home
did he have the distinct smell of mothballs & dirty diapers?
:p

*sorry rik, set yourself up for that one*

[TenTigers]

probably Alzheimer's, that wasn't his student, that was an escort from the nursing home
did he have the distinct smell of mothballs & dirty diapers?
:p

*sorry rik, set yourself up for that one*
Hey, it was years ago, so I was only in my forties, he was in his late fifties.
Whippersnapper!
;-)

[Pork Chop]

Hey, it was years ago, so I was only in my forties, he was in his late fifties.
Whippersnapper!
;-)

dude, i'd be happy to be in as good a shape as you

[Yum Cha]

im losing my edge. I was trying to be sarcastic. This is what the people here believe.

thought the :rolleyes: at the end made it clear :cool:


DAYUM! The obtuse monster bit me on the backside!

I thought it was a little out of character for you Eddie, humble apologies for not getting it... :o

[Yum Cha]

That is mere specubation, the fact is no alcoholic lard butt would make it into the pros today, but who knows what he would do were he alive today.

In his day you could get away with it. Today, he would have either trained in a meaningful manner or not have played in the pros.

If he trained in a meaningful manner it is likely he would still be a top flight player!:)

Yea, he would have gone on the juice like all the other big hitters...

[Lucas]

likewise i wonder if bl would never have experimented and used steroids if he'd had modern medical fact to back up the detrimental side effects of the drug.

such as arnold schwarzenegger(who juiced a considerable time frame after BL) who, once he found out the truth behind steroids, started a huge campaign against the use of steriod drugs and educating people.

[Yum Cha]

likewise i wonder if bl would never have experimented and used steroids if he'd had modern medical fact to back up the detrimental side effects of the drug.

such as arnold schwarzenegger(who juiced a considerable time frame after BL) who, once he found out the truth behind steroids, started a huge campaign against the use of steriod drugs and educating people.

Was that before or after Arnies heart operation(s)?

In music they talk about doing a deal with the devil at the crossroads at midnight (66 and 61 preferably...) I guess that's the MA equivalent.

[Lucas]

it was back in his younger days, i believe the late 70s early 80s


edit:

from wiki:

Schwarzenegger has admitted to using performance-enhancing anabolic steroids while they were legal, writing in 1977 that "steroids were helpful to me in maintaining muscle size while on a strict diet in preparation for a contest. I did not use them for muscle growth, but rather for muscle maintenance when cutting up." He has called the drugs "tissue building."[25]

In 1999, Schwarzenegger sued Dr. Willi Heepe, a German doctor who publicly predicted his early death on the basis of a link between steroid use and later heart problems. As the doctor had never examined him personally, Schwarzenegger collected a $10,000 USD libel judgment against him in a German court.[26] In 1999, Schwarzenegger also sued and settled with The Globe, a U.S. tabloid which had made similar predictions about the bodybuilder's future health.[27] Schwarzenegger was born with a bicuspid aortic valve, an aortic valve with only two leaflets (a normal aortic valve has three leaflets).[28][29] As late as 1996, a year before Schwarzenegger's open heart surgery to replace this aortic valve with a human ****graft valve,[29] Schwarzenegger publicly defended his use of anabolic steroids during his bodybuilding career.[30]

[Scott R. Brown]

Yea, he would have gone on the juice like all the other big hitters...

Actually, I was going to say that in my previous post too, but decided not too, LOL!!!

[Yum Cha]

it was back in his younger days, i believe the late 70s early 80s


edit:

from wiki:

Schwarzenegger has admitted to using performance-enhancing anabolic steroids while they were legal, writing in 1977 that "steroids were helpful to me in maintaining muscle size while on a strict diet in preparation for a contest. I did not use them for muscle growth, but rather for muscle maintenance when cutting up." He has called the drugs "tissue building."[25]

In 1999, Schwarzenegger sued Dr. Willi Heepe, a German doctor who publicly predicted his early death on the basis of a link between steroid use and later heart problems. As the doctor had never examined him personally, Schwarzenegger collected a $10,000 USD libel judgment against him in a German court.[26] In 1999, Schwarzenegger also sued and settled with The Globe, a U.S. tabloid which had made similar predictions about the bodybuilder's future health.[27] Schwarzenegger was born with a bicuspid aortic valve, an aortic valve with only two leaflets (a normal aortic valve has three leaflets).[28][29] As late as 1996, a year before Schwarzenegger's open heart surgery to replace this aortic valve with a human ****graft valve,[29] Schwarzenegger publicly defended his use of anabolic steroids during his bodybuilding career.[30]

Well....in MY face...

[Eddie]

DAYUM! The obtuse monster bit me on the backside!

I thought it was a little out of character for you Eddie, humble apologies for not getting it... :o

hehe no worries.

i often have people trying to tell me about how good BL was and yadayadayada. When I ask them about some (real) kung fu heros, they have no clue.

Very funny thing. Almost ALL of the little kung fu schools (in the park area or under the bridge - never in a building), teaches the 'nunchaku' or what they call two section staff. And almost all of them have the SAME moves in - typical BL movie stuff. Thats all cool, Im happy for them, but its still funny.

In HK I met an old Sifu who knew BL well. This guy is well respected by the sifus I know in HK, so I trust that its actually true.

[Lokhopkuen]

The man was a short, big mouth, womanizing, ego maniac with a little man complex.
He took a mish mash of techniques from various traditional styles and claimed he created his own system.

What an a$$hole LOL!
:rolleyes:

[sanjuro_ronin]

The man was a short, big mouth, womanizing, ego maniac with a little man complex.
He took a mish mash of techniques from various traditional styles and claimed he created his own system.

What an a$$hole LOL!
:rolleyes:

Yeah, I liked him too.
:D

[David Jamieson]

Yeah, I liked him too.
:D

ditto! lol

awesome description LHK! :D

[Lokhopkuen]

I really liked him until i developed some skill. Anyone ever notice he did not know how to work a staff? Later I got a chance to speak to many people who had known him. Aside from praise his skills not one person had a good thing to say about him, well except that he could Cha Cha likka mutherfvcker:D

[sanjuro_ronin]

I really liked him until i developed some skill. Anyone ever notice he did not know how to work a staff? Later I got a chance to speak to many people who had known him. Aside from praise his skills not one person had a good thing to say about him, well except that he could Cha Cha likka mutherfvcker:D

That's gotta count for something !

[Scott R. Brown]

The man was a short, big mouth, womanizing, ego maniac with a little man complex.

What an a$$hole LOL!
:rolleyes:

Not much different than most men I would say!

[David Jamieson]

I really liked him until i developed some skill. Anyone ever notice he did not know how to work a staff? Later I got a chance to speak to many people who had known him. Aside from praise his skills not one person had a good thing to say about him, well except that he could Cha Cha likka mutherfvcker:D

I think that anyone who has invested time and effort to the point where they have fully learned a martial art will come to realize how mediocre Bruce actually was as a martial artist.

He's huge as an inspiration to many, and to the millions and millions who have never crossed hands with anyone, he is stellar in his ability.

To anyone who has put in the hard work of actually learning a style, well, he still has merit, but you come to realize a lot of thing as you grow into power. :)

an excellent observation.

[Lokhopkuen]

Not much different than most men I would say!

I'm no A$$hole I just lack diplomacy:D

[sanjuro_ronin]

One thing we need to remember guys, Bruce was NOT a fully realized Ma when he died, he had been doing MA for what 10 years, maybe 15?
Let us be honest here and remember how much we sucked at the mark !
LOL !

[Scott R. Brown]

I'm no A$$hole I just lack diplomacy:D

LOL!! What's the difference!


One thing we need to remember guys, Bruce was NOT a fully realized Ma when he died, he had been doing MA for what 10 years, maybe 15?
Let us be honest here and remember how much we sucked at the mark !
LOL !

A couple of other things:

-Most top martial artists from back then were not that good compared to today's athletes.

-There is a difference between movie fighting and real fighting!
His true skills cannot be measured against his movie performance.

-His interview demonstrations were not that impressive either.

[lkfmdc]

I've said it before, and faced the consequences! Bruce Lee was not the god people want to make him out to be. Extremely low level of martial arts in this country, lack of education and Lee's talent for wrapping himself in Asian mysticism account for his inspiring many. add to that the fact he was a movie guy who died young and you have the makings of a cult

The fans are rapid, and no amount of fact or reason will change that. I got hate mail for months for pointing out that when Bruce Lee died, Dan Inosanto was a PE teacher, and probably would have stayed that way if the Lee movies had not happened. That isn't saying he doesn't have skills, but tons of people with skills never got famous and made money. Inosanto benefitted greatly from the Bruce Lee cult, to argue otherwise is absurd.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I would say that Dan probably became a better MA than Bruce would have been capable of being.
Bruce seemed a bit to wrapped up in himself and Dan is far more open and just LOVES MA, period.

[lkfmdc]

Dan has no ego (ie learned BJJ from white belt), Bruce was ALL EGO. Dan also still makes his living DOING MARTIAL ARTS. People seem to forget that Bruce wanted to be a movie star, he didn't want to teach the masses his new martial art. Martial art was a tool for Lee to be a movie star.

[goju]

i dont mind the fact bruce was an ego maniac in fact most "masters" are anyway so i dont see the big deal:D

i think the man had legit skills but i think the people who put him into god like status are idiots but i think the same of the people who bash him :p

[Lucas]

Well....in MY face...

i dont get it, i wasnt trying to slam or anything.

but your mention about the devils deal is pretty spot on. funny correlation there.

[David Jamieson]

i dont mind the fact bruce was an ego maniac in fact most "masters" are anyway so i dont see the big deal:D

i think the man had legit skills but i think the people who put him into god like status are idiots but i think the same of the people who bash him :p

so you're a centrist on what you believe about Bruce Lee? lol

I don't think much of centrists regarding Bruce Lee, they're idiots for the most part.

:D

[goju]

so you're a centrist on what you believe about Bruce Lee? lol

I don't think much of centrists regarding Bruce Lee, they're idiots for the most part.

:D

lol

well it applies here bruce wasnt the greatest thing since slice bread nor was he a fraud:D

and of course with many now gone martial artists you have the **** talkers coming out of the wood work only AFTER the man was dead

there should have been plenty of them while he was alive but it seemed like everybody piped down for some reason :D

[David Jamieson]

lol

well it applies here bruce wasnt the greatest thing since slice bread nor was he a fraud:D

and of course with many now gone martial artists you have the **** talkers coming out of the wood work only AFTER the man was dead

there should have been plenty of them while he was alive but it seemed like everybody piped down for some reason :D

Yes, well all those after death talkers have also consistently elevated Bruce to ridiculous levels. In fact, some tribal idiots in the outbacks of SE Asia have deified the guy!

I'm sure Bruce would've loved it. lol

[goju]

Yes, well all those after death talkers have also consistently elevated Bruce to ridiculous levels. In fact, some tribal idiots in the outbacks of SE Asia have deified the guy!

I'm sure Bruce would've loved it. lol

lol

funny thing is bob bremmer( i believe thats his name) mentioned when he was asking bruce about his speed bruce noted he had met other martial artists who are much faster them him


Gasp!

bruce was arrogant but he didnt have his end up his nether orifice either:D

[Lucas]

hey i wish i had a golden statue in moscow...

[Jimbo]

I like some of his films (the 2nd and esp. the 3rd one a lot). I think he had some innovative ideas for the time. And I think he had tremendous natural athletic abilities. IMO he probably used his natural athleticism to make up for a lack of depth in skills. There are lots of athletes who get away with raw physical talent to cover up holes in their overall skills.

When some people say he was the greatest MAist who ever lived, that's just ridiculous. One of BL's early students, who I won't name, made a statement to the effect of: "Bruce Lee was the best fighter on the planet. I know, because where I grew up, I could fight anybody, but he toyed with me like a child." So by association, this person was saying that it would have taken the best fighter on the planet to have beaten him.

I also wouldn't take the word of the Hollywood people of the time who over-exaggerated his abilities. Sure, BL knocked Roman Polanski head over heels during a private lesson. How hard could that have been?

I also don't believe BL beat the challenger (Wong Jack Man) as easily as his wife says. Maybe he didn't defeat him at all. After that fight, he supposedly changed his entire lifestyle and belief system about the MA and physical conditioning, which became an obsession. Beating on someone who was supposedly running away and begging for a couple minutes would not cause someone to question his entire belief system to that point.

All that said, I believe he accomplished a lot in his life. 32 is pretty **** young. Had he lived, I doubt he would have become a legend. His popularity would have eventually waned, like all trends do. He most likely would have matured a lot more. Some who knew him said how down-to-earth he was; others considered him to be just an arrogant a-hole. My guess is, he was somewhere in-between, like a lot of people. So many guys are a-holes on the planet, how was BL much different, other than becoming famous? IMO he was definitely charismatic, and he had some very real skills, just not as good skills as the BL cult have made him out to be.

[Jimbo]

lol

funny thing is bob bremmer( i believe thats his name) mentioned when he was asking bruce about his speed bruce noted he had met other martial artists who are much faster them him


Gasp!

bruce was arrogant but he didnt have his end up his nether orifice either:D



I believe BL mentioned Steve Sanders (now Steve Mumammad) (sp?) as being the man with the fastest hands he'd ever seen.

[David Jamieson]

I also wouldn't take the word of the Hollywood people of the time who over-exaggerated his abilities.

I wouldn't take the word of any Hollywood people now! lol

That town is a lie built on a foundation of lies and their principle product is sweet sweet lies. lol :p

They (people of hollywood, particularly film industry types) have zero credibility when it comes to reality. Even Hollywood's version of reality ISN'T reality! :D

[Jimbo]

I wouldn't take the word of any Hollywood people now! lol

That town is a lie built on a foundation of lies and their principle product is sweet sweet lies. lol :p

They (people of hollywood, particularly film industry types) have zero credibility when it comes to reality. Even Hollywood's version of reality ISN'T reality! :D

Well said!

[Lokhopkuen]

LOL!! What's the difference!

Yo Mama?:D

[goju]

at the same time you had guys like lebell or nishioka who said he was good:D

[Yum Cha]

Lets just say he was a nice boy, who made a few bad mistakes....
:p

[kfson]

http://www.northatlanticbooks.com/images/dyn/cover/?source=9781583941997&height=240

In Jess O'Brien's book Nei Jia Quan, pgs 323-325, James Wing Woo (Yang Tai Chi) discusses his experiences with Bruce Lee.

[pazman]

hehe no worries.

i often have people trying to tell me about how good BL was and yadayadayada. When I ask them about some (real) kung fu heros, they have no clue.

Very funny thing. Almost ALL of the little kung fu schools (in the park area or under the bridge - never in a building), teaches the 'nunchaku' or what they call two section staff. And almost all of them have the SAME moves in - typical BL movie stuff. Thats all cool, Im happy for them, but its still funny.

In HK I met an old Sifu who knew BL well. This guy is well respected by the sifus I know in HK, so I trust that its actually true.

Wow, why didn't I notice this thread before?

The Chinese perspective on Bruce Lee is pretty interesting, and since moving here I've discovered that bringing up Lee in conversation tends to bring out a fiercely nationalistic sentiment among some of my students, almost on par with the Taiwan or Tibet issues.

According to my students:

- Bruce Lee was a master at the shuangjiegun (num-chucks):rolleyes:

- The shuangjiegun is a traditional Chinese weapon, found in many gongfu styles.:rolleyes:

- Bruce Lee developed his own traditional martial art, of which there are several masters of it in China :rolleyes: This is often accompanied by the question "Did any Americans ever come to China to train with him?"

Things that I can say that may bring them to tears:

- Lee was an American citizen.:p

- Lee was trained in boxing and fencing before taking up wing chun (BL nuthuggers, feel free to correct me).:p

- The numchuck sequences that are practiced here certainly do not come from traditional gongfu.:p

[Drake]

The biggest thing I like about Bruce Lee was how he looked at all the fighting systems and said "Hey guys, let's analyze what we've been doing for the last few centuries and see if we can't find ways to improve and optimize it..."

And I thought he was a fine actor as well.

[bawang]

The biggest thing I like about Bruce Lee was how he looked at all the fighting systems
what systems.
he only learned yip man wing chun and old people tai chi

then critisize the entire kung fu world. he only lived on a mole on the ass of china.
he was a rich upperclass mixed blood eurasian. in hong kong. a foreigner


movie stars never helped kung fu. they fuked it all up. just look at kung fu today.

[Scott R. Brown]

what systems.
he only learned yip man wing chun and old people tai chi

then critisize the entire kung fu world. he only lived on a mole on the ass of china.
he was a rich upperclass mixed blood eurasian. in hong kong. a foreigner


movie stars never helped kung fu. they fuked it all up. just look at kung fu today.

yeah bawang, blame it all on the Shaw Bros.!

You are just jealous because you can't do a forward moving back flip and kick the guy sneaking up behind you, or fall off of trees, balconies, and clocks onto your head and walk away from it fine!

It only proves you have no kung fu!:p

[Drake]

what systems.
he only learned yip man wing chun and old people tai chi

then critisize the entire kung fu world. he only lived on a mole on the ass of china.
he was a rich upperclass mixed blood eurasian. in hong kong. a foreigner


movie stars never helped kung fu. they fuked it all up. just look at kung fu today.

Just admit he took all the monehs...

[Siu Lum Fighter]

What I can't understand is why so many so-called traditionalists worship him so much:confused: It seems like he slandered every martial art there is except for western boxing. He had some rather silly ideas too. He said that the northern styles of Chinese kung fu have no power and that Muay Thai was flawed because their fighters wear gloves:confused::confused: Oh ya, and Wing Chun is "insufficient" because you can't use it to finish off someone who's running away from you, that's a good one:rolleyes:.

Sorry, but the more I've learned about Bruce Lee the more I've found myself thinking he was sort of a punk. At least in his earlier years after he had just come from Hong Kong where he was in "The Tigers of Junction Street" gang. I've known guys in martial arts like him. They always want to put on an air like they're the baddest dude on the planet. Oh, but just be sure not to show them up or make them lose in front of everyone. Not that you'd get a chance anyway since they don't spar and if they did they'd end up getting so p!ssed off during the match that they'd throw all the rules out the window.

[goju]

d He had some rather silly ideas too. He said that the northern styles of Chinese kung fu have no power and that Muay Thai was flawed because their fighters wear gloves:confused::confused: Oh ya, and Wing Chun is "insufficient" because you can't use it to finish off someone who's running away from you, that's a good one:rolleyes:.

can you quote him saying any of this? theres alot of nonsense out there about what he supposedly said or did, most of its heard from somebody who knew somebody who knew this guy that new this other guy that posted this thing on a forum in 1999
:D

[Yum Cha]

Like many westernes become enamoured with TCMA, many Chinese became enamoured with Western fighting.

Bruce was one of them.

He slagged off TCMA because Yip Man told him to go fu*k himself when he went back for proper training, and his ego told him, he could do better.

[goju]

from what ive heard yip man was pressured by his other students to stop teaching bruce because he wasnt full chinese and because these other students were pretty much providing him with money to live off of he didnt have much of a choice but he had william cheung and wsl train him since he couldnt do it himself

i dont know how this is telling him to **** off according to wsl yip man was quite fond of bruce from the first time he met him


bruce made many good points about kung fu especially when he stated there are more frauds in it than any other martial art:D

[bawang]

bruce lee is the biggest fraud in the universe

i cant take u seriously when u call kung fu "primitive chinese caveman fighting" but like wingchun and karate

[goju]

bruce lee is the biggest fraud in the universe

i cant take u seriously when u call kung fu "primitive chinese caveman fighting" but like wingchun and karate

um what?:confused:

[bawang]

im saying bruce lee can suck my balls
my balls r very dry

[Frost]

from what ive heard yip man was pressured by his other students to stop teaching bruce because he wasnt full chinese and because these other students were pretty much providing him with money to live off of he didnt have much of a choice but he had william cheung and wsl train him since he couldnt do it himself

i dont know how this is telling him to **** off according to wsl yip man was quite fond of bruce from the first time he met him


bruce made many good points about kung fu especially when he stated there are more frauds in it than any other martial art:D

nope bruce got dropped because of his ego and the fact he wanted to cut corners in his training, yip man had more than enough students he did not have to listen to those that trained under him, he could get more students at a drop of the hat

how good he was or was not is pointless, he made some good movies, trained hard and got alot of people interested in the TCMAs

[Siu Lum Fighter]

can you quote him saying any of this?
It's all right there in Tao of Jeet Kune Do as well as other books.
Also, it's my theory that a lot of the pressure on Yip Man was due to Bruce always being an @sshole to his older classmates. He always tried to show them up when they did chi sao and trained together. Instead of a instructor/student type relationship he was always trying to beat them up and show everyone that he was the best among all of Yip Man's students. They complained about him because he was such a disrespectful young hothead. If you don't believe me, just read William Cheung's take on the matter: http://www.cheungswingchun.com/g/10410/bruce-lee-william-cheung---the-early-years.html

[goju]

nope bruce got dropped because of his ego and the fact he wanted to cut corners in his training, yip man had more than enough students he did not have to listen to those that trained under him, he could get more students at a drop of the hat

how good he was or was not is pointless, he made some good movies, trained hard and got alot of people interested in the TCMAs

yet according to what ive read from cheung yip told him and wsl to instruct bruce

if bruce was being a **** why would yip have done this?

i agree with your last sentence though the mans dead no one of us will ever know how good he was so its pointless

[bawang]

if bruce was being a **** why would yip have done this?


because hes a crazy greedy opium addict

[goju]

because hes a crazy greedy opium addict

lol well...

no in all seriousness from what ive read from wsl and cheung they have made no mention of bruce being kicked out because he was a ****

i believe specifically it was "the william cheung story" in black belt many many many moons ago that discussed bruces leaving and explained why


and yip seemed to be a little trouble maker himself so i doubt he would mind bruces tude
:D

[sihing]

First of all, stating the Bruce L was a mediocore Martial Artist, without ever meeting him, training with him, fighting him is pure speculation, but I guess speculation is truth on this forum, lol. It sounds like a few here are jealous or envious for some reason. If you can't see the skills from watching the video available on him then I don't know what to say (not necessarily talking about his movie footage, there's other footage out there that show his attributes). Lots of top level MMA guys/Boxers have stated that they think Bruce was the man and had good skills, but the people here (who are you again, who have you fought, what have you done???) state otherwise, again alterior motives are in place here.

What I don't like about the Bruce Lee legend is the false self image they have given him, with him being the best of the best fighters, and some sort of god of fitness and such. IMO he was a good fighter, and would fight with most anyone if the opportunity arose. Of course in his later years, he had something to protect, his family, his health, his career so he couldn't just go and fight anyone at anytime, would you if you were in his shoes?? In that book that was written, by that Tom guy, it states some stuff about him being on steriods and stressed out paranoid, and I can believe that, I think he had that type of personality, the drugs don't help and neither did his lifestyle. He definetly had an ego, but I think he was aware of that, but his sudden rise in fame may have taken him of course for awhile. He only made it the last 2yrs of his life, super stardom, so who wouldn't be effected by that happening to them. He was far from perfect, but they portrayed him like that to keep the legend and BL gravy train going.

Bruce was a great inspiration, a great Martial Artist, and IMO a good fighter for sure. He lead the way in many areas in Martial Arts and was way ahead of his time. To degrade him like some have here, 35+yrs after his death, really shows the mentality of the forum, the lack of any type of ability to recognize talent, and totally discredits in my mind what the nay sayers have to say regarding anything Martial Arts related.

James

[pazman]

First of all, stating the Bruce L was a mediocore Martial Artist, without ever meeting him, training with him, fighting him is pure speculation, but I guess speculation is truth on this forum, lol.

And yet, your post was full of speculation.

His movies were cool, he did a lot to popularize martial arts, but saying he was a great fighter needs some evidence.

Sihing, when I think of great fighters from that time I think of Ali, a guy with extensive evidence of fighting skills. What tournaments did he win? What fights are well documented. Hint: look it up on Wikipedia, the results are kind of disappointing.:rolleyes:

[sihing]

And yet, your post was full of speculation.

His movies were cool, he did a lot to popularize martial arts, but saying he was a great fighter needs some evidence.

Sihing, when I think of great fighters from that time I think of Ali, a guy with extensive evidence of fighting skills. What tournaments did he win? What fights are well documented. Hint: look it up on Wikipedia, the results are kind of disappointing.:rolleyes:

My post was based on the information available that I've been able to receive over the last 20+yrs of being a fan of Bruce. All of it says the man was a great Martial Artist, good fighter, and so forth. Some may interpret that differently, that's the beauty of a free country:)

Again, I stated he was a "good" fighter. The truth of the matter is, we can't really define accurately how good he was or wasn't, he's dead and no one here trained with him or fought with him. He looked damm'd good to me. Let's look at it this way. Was Bruce fast? The people that trained with him and sparred with him have all said yes, really fast. He looks fast to me in the vids as well. Was Bruce powerful? Yes, same as above, according to those involved with him he was very powerful and strong for his size, with good power in his strikes. He sure did look like he had good footwork, that can be seen by the way he moved, it's pretty hard to fake that, even if it is cooreographed, one still has to be able to perform and move to make it look real. Was Bruce aware of the fighting arts, like boxing and other arts? Yes, he was known for studying lots of fighting arts. Bruce was also known for his work ethic and kept a steady workout schedule for years. William Cheung told me that back in the 50's they would train for 5 or 6hrs straight, then he would stop for the night but Bruce would continue training for a few more hours. So, so far it looks like he has the ability, attributes and training ethic to be a good fighter. I would say that he probably didn't have a good chin, since he was not a big guy, but who knows. The people he did fight, yeah they could have been scrubs, but who really knows? More speculation, and from what I understand he beat all of them rather easily.

Ali of course was a great fighter, he proved that in the ring countless times. Competition brings about the best in athletes for sure, as it allows them to focus on one thing, plus the good ones get the best help. Just imagine how much better Bruce would have been if he choose that path and had the help Ali did. But to say that because Bruce didn't compete he wasn't a good fighter, well I have to giggle at that. There's plenty of sleepers out there, unknowns that for one reason or another don't compete. I've known a few personally over the years.

So for me, most of the naysayers here are full of it, and have a chip on their shoulders regarding Bruce. Maybe they should look into themselves to find out why?

James

[lkfmdc]

Probably no one here trained with him, probably most people alive in teh world haven't trained with him, but we all can look at footage he took of himself

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BluUhcEvPtI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nf12iowNH38

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOFCMvb43jA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9GRApeZ-_w

none of this is very impressive....

[cerebus]

none of this is very impressive....

I don't know about that. How many 2-finger pushups can YOU do? I can't do any myself (almost, but not quite) even though I can do 1-arm pushups... ;)

[sihing]

Probably no one here trained with him, probably most people alive in teh world haven't trained with him, but we all can look at footage he took of himself

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BluUhcEvPtI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nf12iowNH38

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOFCMvb43jA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9GRApeZ-_w

none of this is very impressive....

Too be impressive or non impressive you must be comparing it to something else, now what would that be, some present day MMA icon or super pro boxer with more help and assistance than you can shake a stick at?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kvyjK8j3jg&feature=PlayList&p=68BB1960562EC81E&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=20 , Ali on the bag, not so impressive either, at least compared to some other bag work I've seen done by other boxers. So what does that prove?

Besides, I thought there was really nothing wrong with the clips posted. A couple of them were demo's, the sparring one looked good (again it's hard to know what his intentions were with his partner, maybe he didn't feel like killing him in front of all those people??), and the bag work looked like power shots to me.

JR

[Scott R. Brown]

I don't know about that. How many 2-finger pushups can YOU do? I can't do any myself (almost, but not quite) even though I can do 1-arm pushups... ;)

No, but I have done 3 one arm pullups from a dead hang with either arm. In my younger days I could hold one leg in the air, nearly vertical, while standing on ONLY the TIP of the big toe of my base leg, and hold it indefinitely, AND I could do it with either leg.

I could also do 4 kicks in a second!

Therefore, I was an awesome fighter when I was younger!:D

[Scott R. Brown]

The evidence of BL's martial greatness are ALL anecdotal.

The evidence of Ali's boxing greatness can be viewed by anyone first hand!

[sihing]

The evidence of BL's martial greatness are ALL anecdotal.

The evidence of Ali's boxing greatness can be viewed by anyone first hand!

This is true, as Ali was involved with the most popular sport in the world at the time, so he had the advantage of having large scale media attention. If he was a karate fighter or sumo fighter he wouldn't have the same attention. The thing is Ali wasn't invincible, and got hit quite often. It was a combination of his great skills, heart and will to win that made him who he was. Nobody really knows how good they are until they are put to the test, Bruce included. There were people that new that fact 1st hand, some have told us all of their experiences with Bruce. Also, like I mentioned before, one can see his skills in the way he moves. The facts are, Bruce could kick most people's a$$es, incl. the majority of the Martial Artists of today, professional boxers/KB/MMA and so forth excluded, and they make up what % of the total population, .0001?

I guess I'll have to agree to disagree with the majority here:)

James

[Scott R. Brown]

The facts are, Bruce could kick most people's a$$es, incl. the majority of the Martial Artists of today, professional boxers/KB/MMA and so forth excluded, and they make up what % of the total population, .0001?

James

Herein lies the problem....it is NOT a fact he could, it is surmise based upon watching his movies and anecdotal evidence.

Surmise is NOT a fact, it is a belief!

Do not get me wrong, it is clear, if nothing else, that BL influenced, motivated and inspired a few generations of martial artists, including myself, but if from observing his movies and demonstrations he has led you to believe he was one of the all time best, you are not a very good martial artist yourself or you are just too young in your training to have achieved a high level of skill.

[sihing]

Herein lies the problem....it is NOT a fact he could, it is surmise based upon watching his movies and anecdotal evidence.

Surmise is NOT a fact, it is a belief!

Do not get me wrong, it is clear, if nothing else the BL influenced, motivated and inspired a few generations of martial artists, including myself, but if from observing his movies and demonstrations he has led you to believe he was one of the all time best, you are not a very good martial artist yourself or you are just too young in your training to have achieved a high level of skill.

Well like I said before, I never said he was the best, all I said was he was a good fighter and great Martial Artist, that's what I see in him. I don't believe in the word "best", as it is very subjective to make a claim like that. Was Ali the best boxer ever?? I think he may have been one of the best, up there with a group of guys.

As for my skills, who knows, for some I am good, for others I suck, it depends on whom I'm going up against, and how good my training was. This applies for all of us. Against Anderson Silva we all suck, against our next door neighboor we're great, unless of course our neighboor is Anderson S:)

James

[Scott R. Brown]

Well like I said before, I never said he was the best, all I said was he was a good fighter and great Martial Artist, that's what I see in him. I don't believe in the word "best", as it is very subjective to make a claim like that. Was Ali the best boxer ever?? I think he may have been one of the best, up there with a group of guys.

As for my skills, who knows, for some I am good, for others I suck, it depends on whom I'm going up against, and how good my training was. This applies for all of us. Against Anderson Silva we all suck, against our next door neighboor we're great, unless of course our neighboor is Anderson S:)

James

I am not intending to insult or belittle you or your skills, but if your skills have/had anywhere near approximated what you perceived to be BL's perhaps you would have a different perspective.

At best we can say he had a reputation for being a fighter, and in the eyes of some, a pretty good fighter. The problem is, there is no real evidence of this.

Where does the marketing of the man end and truth begin? It is doubtful it will ever be certain. For years it was heresy to say anything negative about the man. This is primarily due to the marketing that created his legend and the uniqueness of his personality and movies.

He was the man who changed the face or martial arts and martial arts movies. He was an inspiration to millions, but most of those millions were either marital arts novices or non-martial artists. This made it difficult for anyone to criticize him.

I wish I still had all of my posters of him from my childhood though!:)

[sihing]

I am not intending to insult or belittle you or your skills, but if your skills have/had anywhere near approximated what you perceived to be BL's perhaps you would have a different perspective.

At best we can say he had a reputation for being a fighter, and in the eyes of some, a pretty good fighter. The problem is, there is no real evidence of this.

Where does the marketing of the man end and truth begin? It is doubtful it will ever be certain. For years it was heresy to say anything negative about the man. This is primarily due to the marketing that created his legend and the uniqueness of his personality and movies.

He was the man who changed the face or martial arts and martial arts movies. He was an inspiration to millions, but most of those millions were either marital arts novices or non-martial artists. This made it difficult for anyone to criticize him.

I wish I still had all of my posters of him from my childhood though!:)

There's no evidence to us. None of "us" have experienced it for ourselves, that is all. That still doesn't deny the possiblity that he was a good fighter, lots of people have said so including some of the present elite fighters of today, so who am I to say otherwise. I do know that no one is unbeatable, and no one ever lives up to the legend other people portray to the public. It's like Elvis, James Dean and other famous people that die before their time.

I agree, back in the day it was a no no to say anything other than he was a god. But when that book came out a few years ago, revealing some things that he was involved with, it brought the legend down to a more reality based image of who and what he was, just a man with a huge dream and extreme motivation to succeed.

James

[Scott R. Brown]

I just prefer to stick to what we can be sure of, he was an inspiration to millions, THAT cannot be denied. :)

[sihing]

I just prefer to stick to what we can be sure of, he was an inspiration to millions, THAT cannot be denied. :)

I'd much rather be known for that, than being a fighter anyday. As Rocky once said "You gotta be a moron to want to be a fighter...".

The interesting part is that he still is today to some of this generation, which is amazing after this much time since his death.

[Scott R. Brown]

I'd much rather be known for that, than being a fighter anyday. As Rocky once said "You gotta be a moron to want to be a fighter..."

LOL!!! Ain't it the truth!

Although I wouldn't also mind being known for having awesome skills regardless of whether I fought or not!

[goju]

So for me, most of the naysayers here are full of it, and have a chip on their shoulders regarding Bruce. Maybe they should look into themselves to find out why?


exactly !
but remember this is the internet where everyone is martial arts expert and can do better lol

id like to see the guys who said he wasnt very good demonstrate what skill is to us:D

[kfson]

exactly !
but remember this is the internet where everyone is martial arts expert and can do better lol

id like to see the guys who said he wasnt very good demonstrate what skill is to us:D

I think your point of view is incorrect.
One doesn't have to be an expert to critique someone's skills or to post on KFMF.

What is an expert?

[goju]

I think your point of view is incorrect.
One doesn't have to be an expert to critique someone's skills or to post on KFMF.

What is an expert?

well for example if a person is going to say its obvious by watching him he wasnt that good well then lets see you do good martial arts then

on tape bruce demoed the power of his side kick

his finger strength

his one inch punch

and his speed

lets see the naysayers show the supposedly correct or better way to do them

the person doesnt have to be an"expert" they just have to be able to do better:D

[kfson]

the person doesnt have to be an"expert" they just have to be able to do better:D

That's a pile of juvenile junk.

[David Jamieson]

well for example if a person is going to say its obvious by watching him he wasnt that good well then lets see you do good martial arts then

on tape bruce demoed the power of his side kick

his finger strength

his one inch punch

and his speed

lets see the naysayers show the supposedly correct or better way to do them

the person doesnt have to be an"expert" they just have to be able to do better:D

Until you can build a call phone, network it, distribute them to people and make them work, you will not be allowed to complain to your service provider of same anymore.

Until you can build a car, make it safe and drivable, you are not allowed to call someone else's a pile of junk, especially not if it is road legal and used for it's intended purpose.

You don't have to be an expert to point out where something is lacking, especially when it is blatantly obvious that it is lacking.

I completely disagree with your stance. You are approaching from the wrong vector really when it comes down to it.

Bruce borrowed heavily from sources that were outside the scope of common philosophy for everyday people but common in reference to asian heritage.

He would use this void to promote himself as something special, which to some he was, to many, he was not.

From a personal perspective, BL had nothing to do with my martial arts path and came much later as a person of interest only because some of my kungfu brothers were into chop sockey flicks.

BL was into film. He used what martial arts he did have combined with the ignorant and reverse racist view that chinese were all good at that stuff as the vehicle for him to get into movies.

But, let dreamers dream! They awaken eventually.

:)

[goju]

That's a pile of juvenile junk.

so you cant demonstrate whats better technique you just "know"?

ah thats makes sense:D

[goju]

Until you can build a call phone, network it, distribute them to people and make them work, you will not be allowed to complain to your service provider of same anymore.

Until you can build a car, make it safe and drivable, you are not allowed to call someone else's a pile of junk, especially not if it is road legal and used for it's intended purpose.

You don't have to be an expert to point out where something is lacking, especially when it is blatantly obvious that it is lacking.

I completely disagree with your stance. You are approaching from the wrong vector really when it comes down to it.

Bruce borrowed heavily from sources that were outside the scope of common philosophy for everyday people but common in reference to asian heritage.

He would use this void to promote himself as something special, which to some he was, to many, he was not.

From a personal perspective, BL had nothing to do with my martial arts path and came much later as a person of interest only because some of my kungfu brothers were into chop sockey flicks.

BL was into film. He used what martial arts he did have combined with the ignorant and reverse racist view that chinese were all good at that stuff as the vehicle for him to get into movies.

But, let dreamers dream! They awaken eventually.

:)

yes bruce was a notorious **** talker and apparently the cma community is still butt hurt over it after how many decades?lol


really like i said if you a person here can supposedly "tell" he wasnt skilled then lets see better i want to see naysayers here do those demos the right way or the correct way

if not then.......:D:rolleyes:


anyone can say any martial artists out there is blatantly lacking it doesnt mean they are and when not only can they not explain whats lacking but they cant demonstrate it better themselves then i tend to think they are talking out of their hole

but im cooky that way

[David Jamieson]

yes bruce was a notorious **** talker and apparently the cma community is still butt hurt over it after how many decades?lol


really like i said if you a person here can supposedly "tell" he wasn't skilled then lets see better i want to see naysayers here do those demos the right way or the correct way

if not then.......:D:rolleyes:


anyone can say any martial artists out there is blatantly lacking it doesnt mean they are and when not only can they not explain whats lacking but they cant demonstrate it better themselves then i tend to think they are talking out of their hole

but im cooky that way

You're not kooky, you're just not open minded and you create defenses for attacks that aren't there.

demanding a demonstration for one thing is indeed a juvenile approach. NO offense, but when I see that, I say it in reference to the call for "better demonstration" to be close minded as opposed to "can you indicate where the failing is" or "how would it be better?"

Bruce's demonstrations have all been reiterated by a great many people.
The CMA community is not Butt Hurt by BL's crap talk, or his co-opting of teachings and ideas to fuel his agenda of becoming an american movie star which was his true dream.

Bruce is an icon of martial arts cinema. Of that, there is NO denying.
But was he a great martial artist? Not by a longshot.

In his day. my inspiration was his superior in every way when it came to martial art. My inspiration for martial arts was Muhammad Ali. the one and only. lol
But even he now pales compared to some of the modern fighters that are in teh here and now. But in the day, Ali was a real martial champion and not a movie poseur like Bruce who knew a little but didn't train fully or properly like a martial athlete.

BL really had NO place saying a lot of the things he did because he was hypocritical in so many senses in that respect and borrowed from the Analects and the I Ching and Tao te ching with great frequency to baffle his all to often ignorant interviewers.

he'd hit a bag with nothing or no one else to serve as a comparison.
he would hit people on film, so not actually.
He never was in a sanctioned fight and had no actual fight record at all.
In fact, all rumours of his fighting prowess were mostly that, rumours.

Many folks even state he had some skill, but it is safe to say that many of those who do say that would not even have any sort of career at all in the martial arts if not for their knowing the movie star. For many of them (Wall, Norris, Urqidez, et al to name a few) BL was the springboard from which they all launched careers.

virtually all of them were veritable nobodies before their contact with BL. So, they owed him at least props. :)

Bruce was a little guy. He was of diminutive stature and was never actually challenged outside of the Wong jack man thing which was ridiculously portrayed in the Linda Lee joint "Dragon: the story of Bruce Lee" and by all accounts is Linda's rendering of events. But hey, Linda needs a career too right? And BL's son took that ride and I would think his daughter shall now take up the torch of BL was the greatest in order to begin a career of her own.

Did he have skill? Sure. However, there are hundreds of people out there that are far more deserving of recognition for martial ability than he.

By the way, I don't seek to bash Bruce, I seek to find the correct perspective on his true contributions to the martial arts, which by my reckoning was the promotion of the concept of jeet kuen do.

His actual fighting ability is unknown. One inch punching someone into a waiting chair while theyr co-operate is laughable and anyone, anywhere can kick a heavy bag or punch at it with equal skill to BL or better. I have those back yard films. They really aren't worth much talk.

the only value they have is that they portray Bruce. lol

You'll see better training on a friday night at the fights vids or in a ufc promotional vid. seriously.

[Dragonzbane76]

I agree david. BL was awesome to watch but there is not 'evidence' of him fighting that we can compare.

What made BL great was his idea's. His idea's were ahead of there time or were just coming into. He made a lot of 'masters' money off american teens wanting to learn 'teh deadly' :) he also brough in the concepts of mma and cross training.

[goju]

You're not kooky, you're just not open minded and you create defenses for attacks that aren't there.

demanding a demonstration for one thing is indeed a juvenile approach. NO offense, but when I see that, I say it in reference to the call for "better demonstration" to be close minded as opposed to "can you indicate where the failing is" or "how would it be better?"

Bruce's demonstrations have all been reiterated by a great many people.
The CMA community is not Butt Hurt by BL's crap talk, or his co-opting of teachings and ideas to fuel his agenda of becoming an american movie star which was his true dream.

Bruce is an icon of martial arts cinema. Of that, there is NO denying.
But was he a great martial artist? Not by a longshot.

In his day. my inspiration was his superior in every way when it came to martial art. My inspiration for martial arts was Muhammad Ali. the one and only. lol
But even he now pales compared to some of the modern fighters that are in teh here and now. But in the day, Ali was a real martial champion and not a movie poseur like Bruce who knew a little but didn't train fully or properly like a martial athlete.

BL really had NO place saying a lot of the things he did because he was hypocritical in so many senses in that respect and borrowed from the Analects and the I Ching and Tao te ching with great frequency to baffle his all to often ignorant interviewers.

he'd hit a bag with nothing or no one else to serve as a comparison.
he would hit people on film, so not actually.
He never was in a sanctioned fight and had no actual fight record at all.
In fact, all rumours of his fighting prowess were mostly that, rumours.

Many folks even state he had some skill, but it is safe to say that many of those who do say that would not even have any sort of career at all in the martial arts if not for their knowing the movie star. For many of them (Wall, Norris, Urqidez, et al to name a few) BL was the springboard from which they all launched careers.

virtually all of them were veritable nobodies before their contact with BL. So, they owed him at least props. :)

Bruce was a little guy. He was of diminutive stature and was never actually challenged outside of the Wong jack man thing which was ridiculously portrayed in the Linda Lee joint "Dragon: the story of Bruce Lee" and by all accounts is Linda's rendering of events. But hey, Linda needs a career too right? And BL's son took that ride and I would think his daughter shall now take up the torch of BL was the greatest in order to begin a career of her own.

Did he have skill? Sure. However, there are hundreds of people out there that are far more deserving of recognition for martial ability than he.

By the way, I don't seek to bash Bruce, I seek to find the correct perspective on his true contributions to the martial arts, which by my reckoning was the promotion of the concept of jeet kuen do.

His actual fighting ability is unknown. One inch punching someone into a waiting chair while theyr co-operate is laughable and anyone, anywhere can kick a heavy bag or punch at it with equal skill to BL or better. I have those back yard films. They really aren't worth much talk.

the only value they have is that they portray Bruce. lol

You'll see better training on a friday night at the fights vids or in a ufc promotional vid. seriously.

no im just trying to use logic in a rediculous thread

see lets sum it up

"yeah bruce wasnt that good when you think about it especially if you have any high level of training yourself"

What does high level of skill look like?"

"how should i know?"

lol see why i find it silly if you cant demonstrate skill yourself than how do you know what it is or what it looks like?

by what you think you know or by what youve read or supposedly seen?

[Scott R. Brown]

I agree david. BL was awesome to watch but there is not 'evidence' of him fighting that we can compare.

What made BL great was his idea's. His idea's were ahead of there time or were just coming into. He made a lot of 'masters' money off american teens wanting to learn 'teh deadly' :) he also brough in the concepts of mma and cross training.

Actually even his ideas were retreads from Masters of the past!

But since most people haven't done any serious reading on the matter it isn't surprising that most people are unaware of that fact as well!

[goju]

Actually even his ideas were retreads from Masters of the past!

But since most people haven't done any serious reading on the matter it isn't surprising that most people are unaware of that fact as well!

this is very true especially with his classic "be like water" philosophy:D

[Scott R. Brown]

this is very true especially with his classic "be like water" philosophy:D

And the "Art of fighting without fighting" even so far as to taking it out to "That Island"!

[SPJ]

These guys weren't in the movies, but is time always retrograde:
http://www.egreenway.com/taichichuan/images/bagua37.gif
http://www.egreenway.com/taichichuan/images/sun44a.jpg

the first image is Wang Shu Jin.

cheng style ba gua zhang. he wrote "Ba Gua Zhang". I learned his line of teaching in college in Taichung, Taiwan.

the second image is Sun Lu Tang

he wrote Xing Yi Quan Xue and Ba Gua Zhang/Quan Xue (?).

Sun explained his idea of "internal martial arts" in his books.

Bruce Lee was/still is an icon and inspiration for many and many people in various cultures.

my point is that they are all cool for me.

:cool:

[Siu Lum Fighter]

It's my opinion that Sun Lu Tang could have schooled Bruce without any problem. Kuo Yu Chang and Fu Zhen Song could have totally mopped the floor with Bruce. Of course, this is all speculation BUT these men were proven fighters in public bouts and on the viscous streets and roads of China. Bruce didn't want to fight any public matches because he feared he might lose his rep.

[goju]

It's my opinion that Sun Lu Tang could have schooled Bruce without any problem. Kuo Yu Chang and Fu Zhen Song could have totally mopped the floor with Bruce. Of course, this is all speculation BUT these men were proven fighters in public bouts and on the viscous streets and roads of China. Bruce didn't want to fight any public matches because he feared he might lose his rep.

how do you know they fought? how do you even know they were good fights or if they even won?

[David Jamieson]

how do you know they fought? how do you even know they were good fights or if they even won?

Ku Yu Cheong was by all accounts an amazing martial artist and soldier.
It is through this individual that we see North Shaolin still perpetuated in the west and of course, the Iron Palm that is attributed to his propagation of it and the golden bell as well.

Seriously, someone make a movie about this guy already! I would pay to go see it and I would buy the DVD! lol

Talk about a martial hero. This is the guy!

[sanjuro_ronin]

how do you know they fought? how do you even know they were good fights or if they even won?

You sound like Terrence.:D

[goju]

Ku Yu Cheong was by all accounts an amazing martial artist and soldier.
It is through this individual that we see North Shaolin still perpetuated in the west and of course, the Iron Palm that is attributed to his propagation of it and the golden bell as well.

Seriously, someone make a movie about this guy already! I would pay to go see it and I would buy the DVD! lol

Talk about a martial hero. This is the guy!

he may very will have been but like douglas wong noted chinese martial artst ales are full of a lot of made up nonsense as well lol

[David Jamieson]

he may very will have been but like douglas wong noted chinese martial artst ales are full of a lot of made up nonsense as well lol

Yeah well, I don't know much about Wong.
And I am sure there is lots of stuff that was made up about Ku yu cheong.

None of what was made up compares to teh stuff that was not though.
Not to mention his legacy, which amounts to literally thousands of people learning the style he propagated.

You know, as compared to the thousands of people who think jkd is a style and issuing weird ass permutations of karate and calling it jkd style. lol

Bak Sil Lum on the other hand is probably one of the most difficult traditional chinese martial arts styles to learn and to perform.

At least, by my understanding and of all the things I've viewed or tried my hand at.

BSL is the trad style you would use to compete with those wushu junkies who have the audacity of entering traditional forms competitions with their standardized wushu sets.

at least bsl can be used to kick ass and take numbers. Unlike flimsy monkey flies through the air, then spends 37 second posing and sucking air. lol

[goju]

Yeah well, I don't know much about Wong.
And I am sure there is lots of stuff that was made up about Ku yu cheong.

None of what was made up compares to teh stuff that was not though.
Not to mention his legacy, which amounts to literally thousands of people learning the style he propagated.

You know, as compared to the thousands of people who think jkd is a style and issuing weird ass permutations of karate and calling it jkd style. lol

Bak Sil Lum on the other hand is probably one of the most difficult traditional chinese martial arts styles to learn and to perform.

At least, by my understanding and of all the things I've viewed or tried my hand at.

BSL is the trad style you would use to compete with those wushu junkies who have the audacity of entering traditional forms competitions with their standardized wushu sets.

at least bsl can be used to kick ass and take numbers. Unlike flimsy monkey flies through the air, then spends 37 second posing and sucking air. lol


really who did he fight wheres the evidence?:D

its funny people can accuse somebody of not proving themselves yet praise a guy they have never even seen in action lol

[Lucas]

i always thought of it like this. what evidence is left behind. for both sides of the debate. this goes for anything that is being debated from a historical stand point, its the only way to properly make sense of things.

what evidence shows us any martial art skills or attributes bruce lee possessed.

what evidence shows us the opposite of that, shows us lack of skill and lack of martially related attributes.

because what evidence is left is all we really have to go by. and i believe both of those are covered best by his demos and people who knew him.

was he a good fighter? who knows, he didnt have a fight record.

did he have good attributes for a fighter. at a certain range in his life, absolutely, to argue otherwise would be silly.

we have witness accounts of 'feats of skill' much like how other martial artists demo skill without fighting. but other than that not much to go on. also word of mouth is iffy at best, people talk better of idols than they would of themselves!

we have some small vids, that show skills decent martial artists possess. he was fast, strong, and keen of mind, thats obvious as well. his thoughts regarding martial arts were pretty on track. thats got to count for something.

now the guy just wasnt a big time fighter. plain and simple.

was he a chump? personally i dont think so, but i also am basing this off of the facts and evidence left behind. was he the greatest? hardly.

but its my opionion that the small amount of vids in existance as well as his compiled notes are the best sources of information to base this debate around.

all sources point to the fact that:

bruce lee was not a big time fighter, he had some skills and some good attributes that compliment a martial artist. i just dont see how most people cant see the plain truth. you dont have to love or hate him you CAN be in the middle....

[goju]

You sound like Terrence.:D

lol i know
but it applies here

you cant rag on guy for not having proved anything then praise some ancient chinese master who you never have met much less seen in action at all:D

[David Jamieson]

really who did he fight wheres the evidence?:D

its funny people can accuse somebody of not proving themselves yet praise a guy they have never even seen in action lol

lol. i never saw Bruce in action. But KYC was an Officer in the KMT during a revolutionary war!

Your lack of will to read about Chinese history in the 20th Century only makes your post as quoted fall into the category of egg, on your face.

I don't dis Bruce, I just don't put him on teh martial arts pedestal like so many do.

I like my beer cold, my women hot and my martial heros to be hardcore real.

Oh and h0m0s flaming. I prefer them like that so I don't wind up in some awkward conversation at the end of the night with the guy who keeps touching my arm while talkin. :D

[kfson]

lol. i never saw Bruce in action. But KYC was an Officer in the KMT during a revolutionary war!

Your lack of will to read about Chinese history in the 20th Century only makes your post as quoted fall into the category of egg, on your face.

I don't dis Bruce, I just don't put him on teh martial arts pedestal like so many do.

I like my beer cold, my women hot and my martial heros to be hardcore real.

Oh and h0m0s flaming. I prefer them like that so I don't wind up in some awkward conversation at the end of the night with the guy who keeps touching my arm while talkin. :D

I really don't like Mr. David, but that was a good post.

[goju]

lol. i never saw Bruce in action. But KYC was an Officer in the KMT during a revolutionary war!

Your lack of will to read about Chinese history in the 20th Century only makes your post as quoted fall into the category of egg, on your face.

I don't dis Bruce, I just don't put him on teh martial arts pedestal like so many do.

I like my beer cold, my women hot and my martial heros to be hardcore real.

Oh and h0m0s flaming. I prefer them like that so I don't wind up in some awkward conversation at the end of the night with the guy who keeps touching my arm while talkin. :D

so? how do you know he used any of his martial abilities during the revolutionary war?

its all hearsay :D

i dont put bruce on a pedestal either but im certainly not going to favour another guy with no evidence of his fights over him either

as far as im concerned he is in the same boat as bruce:D

[Lucas]

to be fair Napoleon Bonaparte was an officer in quite a bit of military action, but he was no warrior.... :p

[sanjuro_ronin]

You know, eventually you kids will figure out that it doesn't matter AT ALL what ANYONE ELSE can do.
It only matters what YOU can do.

[Lucas]

ya right. you're married, you know it matters what someone else can DO too.

:p;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

ya right. you're married, you know it matters what someone else can DO too.

:p;)

Puny Mortal.
You know how a real man knows his woman has been satisfied?





I real man doesn't care !!
:D

[goju]

You know, eventually you kids will figure out that it doesn't matter AT ALL what ANYONE ELSE can do.
It only matters what YOU can do.

lol what does this have to do with the thread:D:p

[goju]

Puny Mortal.
You know how a real man knows his woman has been satisfied?





I real man doesn't care !!
:D

and this is why my country was ahead of canada in the best lovers list among women lol:D

[sanjuro_ronin]

and this is why my country was ahead of canada in the best lovers list among women lol:D

You keep telling yourself that junior, and you might even start to believe it someday.
Better yet, you might find yourself a girl drunk enough to believe it too and finally get laid !
:p

[goju]

You keep telling yourself that junior, and you might even start to believe it someday.
Better yet, you might find yourself a girl drunk enough to believe it too and finally get laid !
:p

ireland-1 canada-0:D

[sanjuro_ronin]

ireland-1 canada-0:D

Now it Ireland?
Dude, you need an atlas !

[David Jamieson]

ireland-1 canada-0:D

You're Irish!

Well, that explains everything.

sorry to bother you miss.

:D

[goju]

Now it Ireland?
Dude, you need an atlas !

born in ireland raised here
:D

my ma's side was from spain too so that doubles my dracula like allure to women:D:p

i beleive kramer called it the kavorka:D

[goju]

You're Irish!

Well, that explains everything.

sorry to bother you miss.

:D\
shouldnt you have known by my stubborn willingness to argue a point to death? lol
:D

[Dragonzbane76]

You're Irish!

Well, that explains everything.

sorry to bother you miss.

what's wrong with irish????

I'm Irish, does that explain everything as well???;)

[Lucas]

Puny Mortal.
You know how a real man knows his woman has been satisfied?





I real man doesn't care !!
:D

**** im talkin bout the dinner and the laundry! ;) :p

[Scott R. Brown]

\
shouldnt you have known by my stubborn willingness to argue a point to death? lol
:D

Don't you mean your drunken reasoning??:eek:

[David Jamieson]

Only a drunken Irishman will argue his deep and sincere love of Bruce Lee.

especially late at night after touching another man a lot.

:D

[cerebus]

I may not like anything at all about David Jamieson (in fact, I may even despise everything about him as a sorry excuse for a human being), but I gotta like his current sig line: "Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go back in the same box."

In the end, all returns to Tao... ;)

[lkfmdc]

Too be impressive or non impressive you must be comparing it to something else, now what would that be,



How about the boxers of the day (hint: BL's bag work was horrible)

How about the Muay Thai boxers in Thailand...

Heck, how about the full contact kung fu people in HK at the time, let's not forget that Bruce Lee was in HK during the time of the south east asian cup, but he didn't enter to prove he was a fighter, he sat in the stands and watched.....

[goju]

funny bruces non telegraphic strait punch was taught to jhoon rhee who then taught it to ali ( ali has said this is true quite a few times) and ali used it with sucess in the ring


you would think an actor who had horrible technique wouldnt be able to have anything to offer a pro boxer:rolleyes:

[cerebus]

How about the boxers of the day (hint: BL's bag work was horrible)

How about the Muay Thai boxers in Thailand...

Heck, how about the full contact kung fu people in HK at the time, let's not forget that Bruce Lee was in HK during the time of the south east asian cup, but he didn't enter to prove he was a fighter, he sat in the stands and watched.....

Well, Bruce was a product of his time. We're judging him by different standards than what were in effect in his day. When he was living in Hong Kong as a young man, he engaged in informal "gong sao" matches as well as having fought in (and won) a high school boxing tournament. At that time he was too young to be fighting in the SE Asian tourneys. Later on when, he was back visiting in Hong Kong, he was a movie actor. Of course he wasn't about to break his own rice bowl by getting all facked up in a full contact tournament.

His bag work? Well, he kept his hands too low, and could've shown better/ faster combos, but I think he was concentrating on power in those clips. And for someone his size, he seemed to have some decent power.

But to try and compare him to professional fighters (whether boxers or Muay Thai fighters) is kinda ridiculous. He was possibly the best (or one of the best) amateurs out there (in the US), but professionally he was an actor. Most people in the US at the time were either a) amateurs who BL could probably have beaten, or b) professional non-contact fighters, of whom BL could've given most of them a serious fight (at least any of those anywhere near his weight).

[goju]

in the bag work vid bruce was throwing power shots OBVIOUSLY and they didnt look like they would feel nice

and for all we know he was ****ing around for the camera i beleive that was the same clip where he kept power side kicking the bag and was laughing

[TenTigers]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUqdoWL-Bok
this seems to be what BL was doing on the heavybag as far as the punching is concerned.


Find the three interviews with Dan Inosanto explaining how BL was really a pioneer in MA.
I think this speaks volumes over whether or not he was "the best fighter" etc., which really ends up just being the "Batman can beat Spiderman" argument.

[David Jamieson]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUqdoWL-Bok
this seems to be what BL was doing on the heavybag as far as the punching is concerned.


Find the three interviews with Dan Inosanto explaining how BL was really a pioneer in MA.
I think this speaks volumes over whether or not he was "the best fighter" etc., which really ends up just being the "Batman can beat Spiderman" argument.

well...I gotta say I'm not impressed.

But that's just me.

guys who promote jkd as a style are potheads.

sidekick is not as fast as front kick, or even a shovel kick. anything where you have to change your profile and take a step to make force = inferior to the counterpart that doesn't require this.

jkd is about economizing what you already have.
Many of these guys make it more complex and then go so far as to turn it into a "style" which is contrary to the actual writings as produced by BL.

go figure. again, the ugly money monster renders MA goofy.

[TenTigers]

sidekick is not as fast as front kick, or even a shovel kick. anything where you have to change your profile and take a step to make force = inferior to the counterpart that doesn't require this.

jkd is about economizing what you already have.
Many of these guys make it more complex and then go so far as to turn it into a "style" which is contrary to the actual writings as produced by BL.



1) if you are fighting, you should not be in any fixed position anyway. My body position is constantly changing and adapts freely from side facing to front facing., so it is not an issue.
A small example is, I start beginners with a boxer's guard, in order to train them to have elbows down, and the non-punching hand, cover as the strike goes out.
Once this is ingrained, the hands go to a more centerline cover, so as to intercept and strike/grab,trap, etc quicker. As the strikes go out, the non striking hand covers automatically.

2)what you said in your second statement is addressed by Dan Inosanto in the interview.

[David Jamieson]

1) if you are fighting, you should not be in any fixed position anyway. My body position is constantly changing and adapts freely from side facing to front facing., so it is not an issue.
A small example is, I start beginners with a boxer's guard, in order to train them to have the non-punching hand, cover as the strike goes out.
Once this is ingrained, the hands go to a more centerline cover, so as to intercept and strike/grab,trap, etc quicker. As the strikes go out, the non striking hand covers automatically.

2)what you said in your second statement is addressed by Dan Inosanto in the interview.


I don't take Issue with Inosantos approach at all. If anything, he seems to know what is going on.

Some of the other guys are clearly...out there. lol

[bawang]

didnt bruce lee say all traditional kung fu is useless
how does that inspire people to do kung fu

[goju]

didnt bruce lee say all traditional kung fu is useless
how does that inspire people to do kung fu

no he didnt

[bawang]

he called it classical mess and quit wing chun and made his own matial arts
he took advantage of his student and married her.
he became actor because his father was a actor and used connections.
the taint on kung fu by that rich hongkong douchebag can still be felt today

[goju]

he called it classical mess and quit wing chun and made his own matial arts

he called a lot of the pointless training that was done a classical mess and he was right for the most part

he still kept a lot of wc in his art as well

[bawang]

what part of kung fu is pointless you tell me

because he kept the old tradition of conning outsiders very well

[goju]

what part of kung fu is pointless you tell me

because he kept the old tradition of conning outsiders very well

its not that kung fu is useless its that over time the way it was trained became useless

to much chi wizardry nosense . masters hiding chunks of their art from their students, unrealistic training cmbined with little sparring, etc,etc

[bawang]

bruce lee made it worse

people only now join kung fu because of movies and bruce lee started it all
movies distorted kung fu so bad if u show real kung fu today nobody will respect u.

bruce lee talked about philosophy in kung fu which is just as useless as qi power. its even more pointless and more confusing.
the last real fight he had was when he was a kid. the art of fighting without fighting indeed

[TenTigers]

bruce lee made it worse

people only now join kung fu because of movies and bruce lee started it all
movies distorted kung fu so bad if u show real kung fu today nobody will respect u.

bruce lee talked about philosophy in kung fu which is just as useless as qi power. its even more pointless and more confusing.
the last real fight he had was when he was a kid. the art of fighting without fighting indeed
Blasphemer!
LaLaLaLaLa I can't hear you LaLaLaLa

[bawang]

if someone sees u break a brick and wants to join martial arts, or sees u fighting and wants to join martial arts, its different from someone who saw a chop socky movie and wants to learn martial arts

thats why bruce lee ruined kung fu. very very few movie fans can give up the fantasy and illusion of kung fu and reform, because real kung fu is not attractive

real kung fu is repulsive to most westerners and abc these days

[TenTigers]

if someone sees u break a brick and wants to join martial arts, or sees u fighting and wants to join martial arts, its different from someone who saw a chop socky movie and wants to learn martial arts

thats why bruce lee ruined kung fu
ok, lemmie see if I have this straight:
Someone sees me break a brick, and wants to join Martial Arts and pay me
$150.oo a month.
Someone sees me fighting, and wants to join martial arts and pay me
$150.00 a month.
Someone sees a chop socky movie and wants to learn martial arts and pay me
$150.00 a month.
And this sucks because of Bruce Lee?

[goju]

bruce lee made it worse

people only now join kung fu because of movies and bruce lee started it all
movies distorted kung fu so bad if u show real kung fu today nobody will respect u.

bruce lee talked about philosophy in kung fu which is just as useless as qi power. its even more pointless and more confusing.
the last real fight he had was when he was a kid. the art of fighting without fighting indeed

theres also many top atheltes in prize fighting hat idolize bruce and he inspired them to get into martial arts like manny paciao for example:D

well of course its a movie most fights are just to people wailing on each other and rolling around on the floor no one wants to see that when they go to a theater


im not big on philosophy myself so i could care less about that

[David Jamieson]

ok, lemmie see if I have this straight:
Someone sees me break a brick, and wants to join Martial Arts and pay me
$150.oo a month.
Someone sees me fighting, and wants to join martial arts and pay me
$150.00 a month.
Someone sees a chop socky movie and wants to learn martial arts and pay me
$150.00 a month.
And this sucks because of Bruce Lee?

i believe you've snatched the pebble from his hand now Brother. :p

[bawang]

ok, lemmie see if I have this straight:
Someone sees me break a brick, and wants to join Martial Arts and pay me
$150.oo a month.
Someone sees me fighting, and wants to join martial arts and pay me
$150.00 a month.
Someone sees a chop socky movie and wants to learn martial arts and pay me
$150.00 a month.
And this sucks because of Bruce Lee?

yes
movie guy should pay 10 tiems more



well of course its a movie most fights are just to people wailing on each other and rolling around on the floor no one wants to see that when they go to a theater



NO
thats what kung fu is about. crazy chinese people wailing on each other and rolling on the floor.

[TenTigers]

yes
movie guy should pay 10 tiems more
In the long run, they do.
Many of the people who grew up watching Martial Arts flicks, were so inspired that they stayed with it for their entire lives. Many in fact are now teachers.

[bawang]

not many of them can let go of the fantasy and reform.

[TenTigers]

not many of them can let go of the fantasy and reform, and end up making up their own styles
fixed it for ya, and purt darned good, if ya ask me!

[TenTigers]

great segue...

[sanjuro_ronin]

You guys are fine unless you dare to used the trademarked AUTHENTIC TCMA !!

[bawang]

i dont mean reform like changing traditional kung fu. i mean changing the way u see kung fu and urself as a maritla artsist

i mean would it be such as chore to teach students the actual fighting stance of ur style for examlpe, or stop milking people for money . that kind of things as reform

lots of kung fu teach strong stance with feet nailed to the floor but people always say its no good. then ufc fighters start standing flat feet and stable stance but they make it work. its because of different ways we see martial arts and ourself

[goju]

NO
thats what kung fu is about. crazy chinese people wailing on each other and rolling on the floor.

lol who would have thought

thata side bruces movie fights were much more relaistic than what came before with the wire sword fights and the hand to hand sequences that looked like a shaolin two man form

[David Jamieson]

i dont mean reform like changing traditional kung fu. i mean changing the way u see kung fu and urself as a maritla artsist

i mean would it be such as chore to teach students the actual fighting stance of ur style for examlpe, or stop milking people for money . that kind of things as reform

lots of kung fu teach strong stance with feet nailed to the floor but people always say its no good. then ufc fighters start standing flat feet and stable stance but they make it work. its because of different ways we see martial arts and ourself

all is mind.

sorry for the platitude spouting, but your point is not lost.
I agree with it.

It is about an attitude and a perception that involves each person who would undertake practice, their motivation to do so, the goals they set and how they actually are able to understand what they are doing with depth.

[bawang]

yeah man
look at all the ex shaolin wuseng. they trained so hard for so many years, but finally left. they never really wanted to be monks but movie stars.


my opinion is bruce lee made a lot of people join kung fu, but most of them dont take it seriously, or cant becase the culture gap is too big. the consequence is today where kung fu is a joke.


i dont think average suburban teenagers in the 70s can really understand vengeance ,cruelty, thousand year feuds, humiliation of an entire race, patriotism etc etc

[taai gihk yahn]

bawang, you are one complicated, conflicted MF'er; :D

sometimes it's hard to tell WHAT your real feelings are about TCMA training, history, etc.

but I think in a way it underscores the difficult relationship that many Chinese have w/their home-grown art: attraction and repulsion at the same time;

that said, we appreciate your posting here because, of course, you represent ALL Chinese people, and so whatever you write, we will take as indicative of the feelings of your ENTIRE RACE ;)

srsly bro, keep w/it, stay the course, all that shiite...

[David Jamieson]

bawang, you are one complicated, conflicted MF'er; :D

sometimes it's hard to tell WHAT your real feelings are about TCMA training, history, etc.

but I think in a way it underscores the difficult relationship that many Chinese have w/their home-grown art: attraction and repulsion at the same time;

that said, we appreciate your posting here because, of course, you represent ALL Chinese people, and so whatever you write, we will take as indicative of the feelings of your ENTIRE RACE ;)

srsly bro, keep w/it, stay the course, all that shiite...

You mean Bawang isn't the collective hive mind of the billion+ Chinese who wander the earth?

Now I'M Conflicted!! :mad:

[bawang]

sometimes it's hard to tell WHAT your real feelings are about TCMA training, history, etc.



hey man i troll internet a lot but my view is very simple, preserving kung fu tradition with no compromise.
a lot of times we come up with our own opinions of what kung fu should be like. tv and movies distorts our view of kung fu and fighting and its very hard to let that go.

[SnowDog]

Bawang,

I understand what you are saying about wanting to "preserving kung fu tradition with no compromise"
But I believe this is where his "Clasical Mess" comment came from. BL pointed out how a lot of TMA (Not only Kung Fu) would continue to do things that were no longer relevant simply because they were a tradition and someone 500yrs ago did it, so I'll do it too. He stated that MA back in the day were constanly evolving, because they were being tested.
Then Flash forward to Modern days and too many (not all) were just doing patterns and drills or Mystical Chi Blasting that lost their connection to the reality of fighting, but were still practiced because my master did it, and his master , and his master before him. And no longer were evolving and were losing their relevance.

And from what I read it seems like he thought Kung Fu was a superior MA, but was being watered down and not trained properly.

I don't think he was a god, but I do think he helped open people's eyes to what was wrong with much of the MA training at his time, and the introduction of modern sports conditioning and the willingness to cross train (which the masters of old would do).
But of course you have the LARPers that watched his movies and thought that was real Kung Fu, and then the scam artists that then taught the Movie-Fu as authentic kung fu and created a whole new generation of MA students that were nothing more than a joke.

[yutyeesam]

things evolve the way they need to. if kung fu were really needed for fighting (or even sport fighting for that matter) en masse, then it would've stayed/evolved that way.

[bawang]

hi snowdog, i think we have a misunderstanding
lots of "old traditions" today never existed 600 years ago.thats what i meant by no compromise. not modernizing but not scared to correct past mistakes.

[David Jamieson]

I may not like anything at all about David Jamieson (in fact, I may even despise everything about him as a sorry excuse for a human being), but I gotta like his current sig line: "Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go back in the same box."

In the end, all returns to Tao... ;)

a) you don't even know me, so stick to the reality that on these forums, you are meeting not me as a whole person, but only one aspect of a set of opinions taht I hold. :)

b) just let the jesus quan episode go dude! I'm not changing my view on it. :mad:

c) thanks, i thought it was a cool quote too! :D

[SnowDog]

hi snowdog, i think we have a misunderstanding
lots of "old traditions" today never existed 600 years ago.thats what i meant by no compromise. not modernizing but not scared to correct past mistakes.

Sorry Bawang,

I did misunderstand what you were saying. I too would like a lot of the kung fu to drop the flowery and performance aspect it has today and move back to an actual fighting art, Kung fu has many sound theories and techniques, but unfortunately many schools today either don't understand them or force you to wade through too much B.S. before you can ever learn them.

[bawang]

Sorry Bawang,

I did misunderstand what you were saying. I too would like a lot of the kung fu to drop the flowery and performance aspect it has today and move back to an actual fighting art, Kung fu has many sound theories and techniques, but unfortunately many schools today either don't understand them or force you to wade through too much B.S. before you can ever learn them.

we cannot keep blaming others

change starts wit you and me

[cerebus]

a) you don't even know me, so stick to the reality that on these forums, you are meeting not me as a whole person, but only one aspect of a set of opinions taht I hold. :)

b) just let the jesus quan episode go dude! I'm not changing my view on it. :mad:

c) thanks, i thought it was a cool quote too! :D

a) And as little as I know about you, it's far more than I would like to know.

b) What the fack are you going on about? You're the one who needs to get over it and drop that issue, I never mentioned or even alluded to it so I have no idea which part of your arse you pulled that comment out of.

c) You're welcome.

[Scott R. Brown]

we cannot keep blaming others

change starts wit you and me

Personally.......I have always thought it was all YOUR fault......I wasn't going to mention it.....but since you brought it up....well

IT IS ALL YOUR FAULT!!!!!!:mad:

[taai gihk yahn]

Personally.......I have always thought it was all YOUR fault......I wasn't going to mention it.....but since you brought it up....well

IT IS ALL YOUR FAULT!!!!!!:mad:
:mad:
oh fine - start blaming someone else now - I mean, it USED to be all MY fault, but I suppose that buying a high-power rifle scope to watch someone with just doesn't carry the same sort of loyalty it used to;

so go ahead, heap the blame onto someone else; but when they start in with "it's not my fault", don't come crying back to me!:mad:
:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

[Scott R. Brown]

:mad:
oh fine - start blaming someone else now - I mean, it USED to be all MY fault, but I suppose that buying a high-power rifle scope to watch someone with just doesn't carry the same sort of loyalty it used to;

so go ahead, heap the blame onto someone else; but when they start in with "it's not my fault", don't come crying back to me!:mad:
:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

Whoa there partner.....are you saying you and bawang are NOT the same person? :confused:

[David Jamieson]

a) And as little as I know about you, it's far more than I would like to know.

b) What the fack are you going on about? You're the one who needs to get over it and drop that issue, I never mentioned or even alluded to it so I have no idea which part of your arse you pulled that comment out of.

c) You're welcome.

a) the little you know is almost nothing!

b) I know you are but what am I?

c) Thanks again. :)