MMA hands

[Phil Redmond]

Some people think if it's not MMA then it's no good. The MMA ground game can be fantastic but regarding the hands why are there so many wild, lucky, sloppy haymakers?
I had a list of links of some of the well known MMA fighters and that's what I see.
I don't have to post them because anyone can see the flaws in many MMA guys handwork. I also get the same opinion from one former pro boxer and one present pro boxer that I know. I'm not taking anything for the heart/stamina, etc., you have to have to fight but I'm not impressed with the hands like some people here who think that MMA people are invincible. My experience it the WC hands are better. But some will never agree and that's their prerogative.

[HumbleWCGuy]

MMA striking is just above toughman quality for the most part.

[Phil Redmond]

I'm trying not to name drop but a boxer friend of mine said "exactly" the same thing.

[lkfmdc]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlJvo5R-Wqs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nBoQgeKP-0

If you think he's just "tough man" .......

[HumbleWCGuy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlJvo5R-Wqs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nBoQgeKP-0

If you think he's just "tough man" .......
If you will recall, I said, "For the most part,". That allows for exceptions to the rule. It's obvious that I was speaking about the average quality of the striking in the sport.

[Tao Of The Fist]

[QUOTE=lkfmdc;992218]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlJvo5R-WqsQUOTE]

0:04-0:09 if you keep repeating that it makes a pretty nice beat I think

[HumbleWCGuy]

MMA striking is not at the pinnacle of striking. The real problem is that it is interpreted as the pinnacle of striking by people who have trained striking inconsistently, haphazardly, or for a short time.

[goju]

me and frost got into a debate over that i think its is his catch thread if anyone wants to read it

but supposedly they have to punch like that

even though there are quite a few mma fighters out there who use crisp clean kicking and punching which pretty much cancels out the notion loopy punches are a must:D

i personally blame it on lack of quality stand up coaches

[SAAMAG]

There are few of the MMA guys who are learning to strike better. Guys like Silva, Machida, Penn, and GSP are all champions because they all have not only good strikes, but great precision and timing. The remainder of MMA though, is far below average quality. To be fair you have to remember that most MMA guys are wrestlers and BJJ'ers who learn striking, as opposed to strikers who learn grappling. The sport is consistently growing in overall skill level though. It wasn't long ago when no one knew how to beat a grappler and keep it standing. Now you see a lot more standup because the strikers are learning to counter the grapplers. Give it time. They'll get better as a whole.

One of the things that makes MMA a good testing platform, is that universal truths make themselves evident and you will see a h0m0genization of techniques because what works works.

Though MMA is not the end all be all of skill testing (because it is limited by rules); it's probably the closest thing we have to real life one-on-one combat in terms of pressure testing.

[SAAMAG]

me and frost got into a debate over that i think its is his catch thread if anyone wants to read it

but supposedly they have to punch like that

even though there are quite a few mma fighters out there who use crisp clean kicking and punching which pretty much cancels out the notion loopy punches are a must:D

i personally blame it on lack of quality stand up coaches

One of the reasons for the wide loopy punches is because those punches are only meant to get the grappler close enough to get a takedown. It's to bridge the gap so to speak. Punches like Fedor's casting punch for example. It's taught in many an MMA gym too.

The other reason is, you're right...there could be poor boxing trainers. But then these are all boxing coaches...I'd think that some of them have to have some skill to be able to teach.

Another reason is that the standup is just now making itself more pronounced. As standup fighting becomes more prominant in MMA, you will probably see the striking hopefully get closer to K-1 levels....but until then....we'll have to settle for watching them progress over time.

[Wayfaring]

Some people think if it's not MMA then it's no good. The MMA ground game can be fantastic but regarding the hands why are there so many wild, lucky, sloppy haymakers?
I had a list of links of some of the well known MMA fighters and that's what I see.
I don't have to post them because anyone can see the flaws in many MMA guys handwork. I also get the same opinion from one former pro boxer and one present pro boxer that I know. I'm not taking anything for the heart/stamina, etc., you have to have to fight but I'm not impressed with the hands like some people here who think that MMA people are invincible. My experience it the WC hands are better. But some will never agree and that's their prerogative.

You have somewhat of a point there. There are a couple categories:

1) BJJ background - unfortunately many of these guys have poor hands. The Royce approach to hands won't cut it today. Rolles Gracie is the latest example of this.
2) Good wrestlers - with constant pressure, takedowns, cage work they can get away with sloppier hands.

Also, the top fighters don't seem to be top 5% in one category, they are more top 20% in all categories. I've heard a MT coach say that none of the top MMA guys are in the top 10 in MT strikers - they couldn't hang with the top Dutch or Thai guys under those rules. They also couldn't hang with good boxers under those rules.

However, the threat of takedowns and the ground game definitely changes the approach to hands. Pro boxers can let their hands go because the worst that will happen is clinching up and a ref separating them. There is no threat there of losing a fight from the clinch. Actually one interesting example there is the Tyson Buster Douglas fight - clinch for 13 rounds getting him backing up, then a KO.

With the haymakers, overhand punches and looping hooks, actually if they time them right, they are a safer bet than a closer range punch in MMA if they can get their opponent coming in. Fedor's last 2 fights with Arlovski and Rogers are examples of that. You can't call that luck 2X in a row. Or wild - both hit the button.

[HumbleWCGuy]

One of the reasons for the wide loopy punches is because those punches are only meant to get the grappler close enough to get a takedown. It's to bridge the gap so to speak. Punches like Fedor's casting punch for example. It's taught in many an MMA gym too.

The other reason is, you're right...there could be poor boxing trainers. But then these are all boxing coaches...I'd think that some of them have to have some skill to be able to teach.

Another reason is that the standup is just now making itself more pronounced. As standup fighting becomes more prominant in MMA, you will probably see the striking hopefully get closer to K-1 levels....but until then....we'll have to settle for watching them progress over time.

Sloppy, looping strikes do not bridge more effectively than crisp straight strikes. I assume that you are just repeating what someone said, but there are many ways to bridge to grapple without being haphazard or sloppy.

K-1 has it's problems too. When I see Ernesto Hoost get dropped by Bob Sapp, I have to wonder. In pro boxing, Sapp would never fight in anything above 4 rounds.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Randy Couture has evolved in to one of the more solid boxers in mma. All he is doing is pretty much solid golden gloves boxing hands up, jabs, and basic combinations.

[goju]

Sloppy, looping strikes do not bridge more effectively than crisp straight strikes. I assume that you are just repeating what someone said, but there are many ways to bridge to grapple without being haphazard or sloppy.

K-1 has it's problems too. When I see Ernesto Hoost get dropped by Bob Sapp, I have to wonder. In pro boxing, Sapp would never fight in anything above 4 rounds.

supposedly theres also a theory that this 'casting punch" was actually just an imitation of igor vovchanchyns ridgehand type strike


igor was asked if he thinks this theory that fedor and others who use this punch were influenced by him and his peculiar hand strike and he thought it was indeed a possibilty he even claimed it was common after he became popular to see people in japans gyms trying to imitate that type of strike

[HumbleWCGuy]

supposedly theres also a theory that this 'casting punch" was actually just an imitation of igor vovchanchyns ridgehand type strike


igor was asked if he thinks this theory that fedor and others who use this punch were influenced by him and his peculiar hand strike and he thought it was indeed a possibilty he even claimed it was common after he became popular to see people in japans gyms trying to imitate that type of strike

I have been throwing the "casting punch' for nearly all of my martial arts career. I always considered it a ridge hand variant. In fact, it was the second looping technique that I learned to use.

[goju]

I have been throwing the "casting punch' for nearly all of my martial arts career. I always considered it a ridge hand variant. In fact, it was the second looping technique that I learned to use.

yes this is pretty much just an exagerrated ridge hand

http://www.vidoemo.com/yvideo.php?i=SklTZ0xjcWuRpbGZYM2M&how-to-throw-the-fedor-punch-aka-sambo-s-casting-punch

we have the same in goju ryu you can use the side of the hand or strike with the forerarm

[HumbleWCGuy]

yes this is pretty much just an exagerrated ridge hand

http://www.vidoemo.com/yvideo.php?i=SklTZ0xjcWuRpbGZYM2M&how-to-throw-the-fedor-punch-aka-sambo-s-casting-punch

we have the same in goju ryu you can use the side of the hand or strike with the forerarm

Yea, it is a nice punch. We throw it a little differently, but whatever.

To what some are suggesting, It boarders on the ridiculous for anyone to say that a looping technique to the clinch represents some kind of refined MMA clinching strategy that shapes the entire upright game for grapplers. Looping technique to the clinch has long been a standard clinching tactic. It is a way, and not the preferred or ultimate way to achieve the clinch. There are many ways that are just as effective if not more so.

[Paul T England]

MMA striking is not at the top level yet. Why do they swing and launch haymakers? bacuase they work....especially on people who drop guard etc.

paul

[Frost]

Some people think if it's not MMA then it's no good. The MMA ground game can be fantastic but regarding the hands why are there so many wild, lucky, sloppy haymakers?
I had a list of links of some of the well known MMA fighters and that's what I see.
I don't have to post them because anyone can see the flaws in many MMA guys handwork. I also get the same opinion from one former pro boxer and one present pro boxer that I know. I'm not taking anything for the heart/stamina, etc., you have to have to fight but I'm not impressed with the hands like some people here who think that MMA people are invincible. My experience it the WC hands are better. But some will never agree and that's their prerogative.

why is the standard in MMA so bad?
why are so many of these wild sloppy punches so lucky?
why did Randy get destroyed by someone throwing wide open punches (liddel)

its beacuse MMA is not K1 or kick boxing, and striking in MMA reflects a few basic facts:
1) fecking small gloves which mean all kinds of strikes slip through that would get blocked with nice big boxing gloves
2)wide casting punches are great to set up take downs (that why the sambo guys punch like this, its not russian boxing it comes from the combat sambo guys)
3) you don't get much time to throw nice combinations and set up power shots, you throw more than 3 punches and you normally get clinched and takedown etc, so all your punches better count, (no nice clean jabs to set up the overhand right please)
4) wide swinging punches generate power from the waist so you don't need to set your feet, you can throw them on the move or when you are in trouble, handy if you are moving away from a takeown or your legs are shot and you can't plant them for power (anyone see manioff get knocked out on strike force by a single wild swinging punch when dominating the stand up and taking the guys base out with leg kicks)
5)most fighters stand slightly squarer with lower stances than in pure striking, this helps deal with the take down and allows for power punches of both hands, but does not make for nice clean punches
6) striking is probably the least important aspect of MMA, the clinch and the ground normally dominate so most guys learn just enough to get by (but look at good strikers coming into MMA, daley, Mainoff Hardy, they have to adapt or they lose, you throw too many punches you get takedown or knocked out, so you throw less punches as a striker but try to make them count)
7) no three knock down rule or 8 seconds standing counts, if you get knocked down and can't defend the fights over, this means very few guys are willing to stand and throw combinations for fear of the one lucky punch taking them out (meianoff was winning the above fight hands down, stayed in the pocket too long thinking it was a thai match and got KO'd by a shot that was wild and lucky, go figure)

MMA is not pure striking nor is it pure wrestling or pure BJJ, its different and changes all the rules in the above pure sports: thats why in MMA BJJ blackbelts lose to purples and good wrestlers get takendown by sloppy shots.

[HumbleWCGuy]

The thicker the gloves the harder the punches. Thin gloves do not make any difference. Gloves reduce cuts on the struck, but they protect the hands of the striker allowing for much harder and riskier punches.


Edit:
I like this thread. I would like to be moved off my position that mma strikers are just not that good. People who have attempted to defend mma striking are reinforcing my beliefs as I interpret what they are saying as:

MMA strikers as a group have 1 dimensional clinching tactics by kickboxing/boxing standards

MMA strikers as a group don't have credible defenses to get into exchanges by kickboxing/boxing standards

MMA strikers as a group often don't have credible chins by kickboxing/boxing standards

MMA strikers lack the footwork and strategies to manage distance by kickboxing/boxing standards

MMA strikers as a group lack the understanding necessary to generate power while punching compactly by kickboxing/boxing standards

[Frost]

The thicker the gloves the harder the punches. Thin gloves do not make any difference. Gloves reduce cuts on the struck, but they protect the hands of the striker allowing for much harder and riskier punches.

did i mention anywhere that gloves do not reduce cuts or do not allow for harder strikes?

My point was the smaller the glove the more holes it leaks through, half the punches you see in MMA land would never get through a basic boxing guard, bigger gloves cover a lot more area in denece.... not to mention you feel the knuckles alot more through 4oz gloves than you do through 10 or 12oz

[HumbleWCGuy]

did i mention anywhere that gloves do not reduce cuts or do not allow for harder strikes?

My point was the smaller the glove the more holes it leaks through, half the punches you see in MMA land would never get through a basic boxing guard, bigger gloves cover a lot more area in denece.... not to mention you feel the knuckles alot more through 4oz gloves than you do through 10 or 12oz

I misread. Still, getting hit flush with a haymaker after haymaker really just speaks to having a lack of a credible defense.

[t_niehoff]

The thicker the gloves the harder the punches. Thin gloves do not make any difference. Gloves reduce cuts on the struck, but they protect the hands of the striker allowing for much harder and riskier punches.


Wrong. I routinely spar with both -- and can tell you that there is a huge difference between 4 0z gloves and 16 oz gloves in terms of power -- and the thin ones allow you to deliver more. This is just common sense: swing a lead pipe, one covered in 4 oz of padding another coverd in 16 oz of padding.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Wrong. I routinely spar with both -- and can tell you that there is a huge difference between 4 0z gloves and 16 oz gloves in terms of power -- and the thin ones allow you to deliver more. This is just common sense: swing a lead pipe, one covered in 4 oz of padding another coverd in 16 oz of padding.
If people don't switch punching styles between glove types. Try training with people who know how to use the boxing glove better. Its like training BJJ with a gi and never grabbing the gi. If you never learn to use the gi, you might wonder about the difference between gi and no gi.

[t_niehoff]

What is clear is tha for the most part we have people talking about MMA who have never trained MMA or trained with good MMA fighters.

MMA is NOT boxing. Some people in MMA use a boxing skill set, but it is APPLIED differently since the conditions of the fight are different (you have to adjust for the possiblity of kicks, takedowns, clinches, etc.). You need to modify how you move, defend, throw, etc. Boxers tend to look at MMA striking through boxer's eyes (that's not how it's done in boxing). But there are many MMA fighters that have either fought pro boxing or been golden gloves. BJ Penn, Nick Diaz, Jens Pulver, and I could go on and on, all have great hands.

And for many in MMA, their stand-up is not their main game. They just want enough skill to get by until they can take the fight to the ground, for instance.

What I find interesting is the people who couldn't last a minute with a decent (competent) MMA fighter pointing out the "technical flaws" in their game. To me, this is like really poor golfers trying to technically critique the games of the pros. Every one of you would be wel;l-served to spend some significant time training with some good fighters instead of theorizing how you really know better.

[t_niehoff]

If people don't switch punching styles between glove types. Try training with people who know how to use the boxing glove better. Its like training BJJ with a gi and never grabbing the gi. If you never learn to use the gi, you might wonder about the difference between gi and no gi.

http://finneyskickboxing.com/

I'll take that up with Jesse and tell him he's cheating us. ;)

[HumbleWCGuy]

What is clear is tha for the most part we have people talking about MMA who have never trained MMA or trained with good MMA fighters.

MMA is NOT boxing. Some people in MMA use a boxing skill set, but it is APPLIED differently since the conditions of the fight are different (you have to adjust for the possiblity of kicks, takedowns, clinches, etc.). You need to modify how you move, defend, throw, etc. Boxers tend to look at MMA striking through boxer's eyes (that's not how it's done in boxing). But there are many MMA fighters that have either fought pro boxing or been golden gloves. BJ Penn, Nick Diaz, Jens Pulver, and I could go on and on, all have great hands.

And for many in MMA, their stand-up is not their main game. They just want enough skill to get by until they can take the fight to the ground, for instance.

What I find interesting is the people who couldn't last a minute with a decent (competent) MMA fighter pointing out the "technical flaws" in their game. To me, this is like really poor golfers trying to technically critique the games of the pros. Every one of you would be wel;l-served to spend some significant time training with some good fighters instead of theorizing how you really know better.

You could think of it as people with great technical expertise pointing out poor technical expertise by superior athletes. Bill Bellichick didn't play football but he might be the greatest coach ever.

Look at it this way. Randy Couture could beat a lot of BJJ black belts. does that make him a BJJ black belt or BJJ technical expert?

[t_niehoff]

You could think of it as people with great technical expertise pointing out poor technical expertise by superior athletes. Bill Bellichick didn't play football but he might be the greatest coach ever.

Look at it this way. Randy Couture could beat a lot of BJJ black belts. does that make him a BJJ black belt or BJJ technical expert?

Who on this forum has "great technical expertise" in boxing? Yet, you want to technically analyze the form of people who would beat you to a pulp!

You can't analyze MMA from a "pure" boxing stand-point since it is not pure boxing, but modified. And, unless you have a lot of experience doing MMA, you can't understand how you need to modifiy it for MMA. This is what you don't appreciate.

Even BJJ for MMA is not sport BJJ.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Who on this forum has "great technical expertise" in boxing? Yet, you want to technically analyze the form of people who would beat you to a pulp!

You can't analyze MMA from a "pure" boxing stand-point since it is not pure boxing, but modified. And, unless you have a lot of experience doing MMA, you can't understand how you need to modifiy it for MMA. This is what you don't appreciate.

Even BJJ for MMA is not sport BJJ.
So if you disagree with the assessment of the technical expertise then please explain to use why off-balance, telegraphed, and looping punches at a high rate are justifiable "adjustments" for mma from standard boxing/kickboxing. Thus far the rationalizations don't seem to hold up to scrutiny. As WCers, kickboxing to standing grappling should be right in our wheel house.

[Phil Redmond]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlJvo5R-Wqs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nBoQgeKP-0

If you think he's just "tough man" .......
Heck no. He doesn't fit into that category. But there are many that do. Also, I noticed that he uses blocks as well.

[m1k3]

The casting punch is a standard part of Sambo. I also think that one of the reasons you don't see a whole lot of combinations is a combination of fear of takedowns and the small gloves.

MMA striking is more like bare knuckle boxing. It tends to be long range and more power shots than jabs. If either fighter gets inside it immediatly switches to clinch fighting, either mauy thai with lots of knees or wrestling with takedowns. In bare knuckle boxing throws were allowed so little or no clinch fighting (punches) developed there either.

Jabs can be dangerous because a good wrestler will follow the jab back with a single leg takedown shot, so if you hit you must do some damage to discourage the shot. Jabs came about in boxing after the throws and grappling were removed from the rules.

Edit: Another thing that makes combinations difficult is that wrestlers will shot immediatley after a punch and if you get caught in the takedown attempt while throwing your straight right following the jab you are scr3wed.

[t_niehoff]

So if you disagree with the assessment of the technical expertise then please explain to use why off-balance, telegraphed, and looping punches at a high rate are justifiable "adjustments" for mma from standard boxing/kickboxing. Thus far the rationalizations don't seem to hold up to scrutiny. As WCers, kickboxing to standing grappling should be right in our wheel house.

Look, MMA fighters -- especially those at the higher levels -- have top quality boxing, MT, wrestling, etc. coaches. They are getting excellent training and instruction. Do they make mistakes? Sure. That's the nature of fighting. You see the same things in boxing, kickboxing. And as I said, some aren't trying to be great boxers, they just want enough to take it to the ground.

WCK is NOT kickboxing and doesn't have kickboxing tools. That's why when WCK people fight/spar at noncontact they don't "look" like WCK -- they're not using WCK tools.

[t_niehoff]

The casting punch is a standard part of Sambo. I also think that one of the reasons you don't see a whole lot of combinations is a combination of fear of takedowns and the small gloves.

MMA striking is more like bare knuckle boxing. It tends to be long range and more power shots than jabs. If either fighter gets inside it immediatly switches to clinch fighting, either mauy thai with lots of knees or wrestling with takedowns. In bare knuckle boxing throws were allowed so little or no clinch fighting (punches) developed there either.

Jabs can be dangerous because a good wrestler will follow the jab back with a single leg takedown shot, so if you hit you must do some damage to discourage the shot. Jabs came about in boxing after the throws and grappling were removed from the rules.

Everything you said is correct.

[sanjuro_ronin]

To simple echo was was already stated by a few like Frost and M1K3, MMA striking is just that, MMA striking.
It is NOT boxing, or KB or MT, it is unique to MMA.
Boxers and boxing coaches are notorious for their ragging on MMA striking, heck even I STILL do it at times, but the fact is, you try to strike in correct boxing from you will get taken down and beat far more easily, as been shown over and over.
MMA requires a more stable and wider stance with less forward leaning than a typical boxing stance or even a MT/KB stance.
You need a hybrid wrestling/KB stances and you want deliver much power with strike done in a "correct" boxing manner from that stance.
In many ways the "looping and long arm" strikes of CLF or even HK lend themselves better to MMA than do classical boxing.
The fact that the bets strikers in MMA have a solid "traditional" striking background BEFORE they adapted to MMA simple shows that a strong core in a "classical" striking system builds a far better "power platform" than what is typiclaly taught in MMA from the get go.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Look, MMA fighters -- especially those at the higher levels -- have top quality boxing, MT, wrestling, etc. coaches.

No they don't.

[Frost]

No they don't.

yes they do, i know the guys that coach the tp guys in the UK, and they are all pro thai coaches, hell some of the fighters go to holland and train with the top teams on a regular basis

[Frost]

The casting punch is a standard part of Sambo. I also think that one of the reasons you don't see a whole lot of combinations is a combination of fear of takedowns and the small gloves.

MMA striking is more like bare knuckle boxing. It tends to be long range and more power shots than jabs. If either fighter gets inside it immediatly switches to clinch fighting, either mauy thai with lots of knees or wrestling with takedowns. In bare knuckle boxing throws were allowed so little or no clinch fighting (punches) developed there either.

Jabs can be dangerous because a good wrestler will follow the jab back with a single leg takedown shot, so if you hit you must do some damage to discourage the shot. Jabs came about in boxing after the throws and grappling were removed from the rules.

Edit: Another thing that makes combinations difficult is that wrestlers will shot immediatley after a punch and if you get caught in the takedown attempt while throwing your straight right following the jab you are scr3wed.

its easy to see who on this site has actually trained with some MMA guys, nice post:)

[Frost]

To simple echo was was already stated by a few like Frost and M1K3, MMA striking is just that, MMA striking.
It is NOT boxing, or KB or MT, it is unique to MMA.
Boxers and boxing coaches are notorious for their ragging on MMA striking, heck even I STILL do it at times, but the fact is, you try to strike in correct boxing from you will get taken down and beat far more easily, as been shown over and over.
MMA requires a more stable and wider stance with less forward leaning than a typical boxing stance or even a MT/KB stance.
You need a hybrid wrestling/KB stances and you want deliver much power with strike done in a "correct" boxing manner from that stance.
In many ways the "looping and long arm" strikes of CLF or even HK lend themselves better to MMA than do classical boxing.
The fact that the bets strikers in MMA have a solid "traditional" striking background BEFORE they adapted to MMA simple shows that a strong core in a "classical" striking system builds a far better "power platform" than what is typiclaly taught in MMA from the get go.

Gosh its nice when someone who has actually trained and faught NHB comes on here and talks sense:D

[HumbleWCGuy]

There are essentially two types of upright in mma boxing with kicks and kickboxing. If a school is not teaching kickboxing the instructor is downgraded just by that fact almost irrespective of pedigree. Old karateka and boxing coaches teach boxing with kicks. MT and some Kung Fu men teach kickboxing. They are a world apart.

[Frost]

There are essentially two types of upright in mma boxing with kicks and kickboxing. If a school is not teaching kickboxing the instructor is downgraded just by that fact almost irrespective of pedigree. Old karateka and boxing coaches teach boxing with kicks. MT and some Kung Fu men teach kickboxing. They are a world apart.

sorry i am not getting your point here, the stnad up in MMA can be split into two groups that is true, but the slpit is between the stand up that works and the stand up that does not

a school is downgraded if non of its guys compete or do well in competition, if they do well they are respected and people will go and learn from them because fighters are always looking for an edge

[HumbleWCGuy]

yes they do, i know the guys that coach the tp guys in the UK, and they are all pro thai coaches, hell some of the fighters go to holland and train with the top teams on a regular basis

If they are going to Holland or TL then they are getting trained. If they are using guys in the U.K. not likely. Top coaches in a sport stay in their sport for the most part. Top coaches are not that interested in teaching people who can't or won't master their art.

[HumbleWCGuy]

sorry i am not getting your point here, the stnad up in MMA can be split into two groups that is true, but the slpit is between the stand up that works and the stand up that does not

a school is downgraded if non of its guys compete or do well in competition, if they do well they are respected and people will go and learn from them because fighters are always looking for an edge

Exactly.....

[HumbleWCGuy]

To simple echo was was already stated by a few like Frost and M1K3, MMA striking is just that, MMA striking.
It is NOT boxing, or KB or MT, it is unique to MMA.
Boxers and boxing coaches are notorious for their ragging on MMA striking, heck even I STILL do it at times, but the fact is, you try to strike in correct boxing from you will get taken down and beat far more easily, as been shown over and over.
MMA requires a more stable and wider stance with less forward leaning than a typical boxing stance or even a MT/KB stance.
You need a hybrid wrestling/KB stances and you want deliver much power with strike done in a "correct" boxing manner from that stance.
In many ways the "looping and long arm" strikes of CLF or even HK lend themselves better to MMA than do classical boxing.
The fact that the bets strikers in MMA have a solid "traditional" striking background BEFORE they adapted to MMA simple shows that a strong core in a "classical" striking system builds a far better "power platform" than what is typiclaly taught in MMA from the get go.

Given allowances for adjustments to mma, the striking is not premium.

[m1k3]

???

Neither of your choices is suitable for MMA because of the rules. Wrestling has a huge impact on the way you stike and striking has a huge impact on the way you wrestle.

The strikers can not use their typical stances because they will get taken down and gnp'ed.

Wrestlers can not use their typical stances or their faces become nothing more than targets for knees and low kicks.

Both styles had to change because of the rules.

[Frost]

If they are going to Holland or TL then they are getting trained. If they are using guys in the U.K. not likely. Top coaches in a sport stay in their sport for the most part. Top coaches are not that interested in teaching people who can't or won't master their art.

top guys also go where the money is, at the moment in the UK MMA pays more than Thai so the trainers don't mind training the guys for a cut of the purse

[HumbleWCGuy]

???

Neither of your choices is suitable for MMA because of the rules. Wrestling has a huge impact on the way you stike and striking has a huge impact on the way you wrestle.

The strikers can not use their typical stances because they will get taken down and gnp'ed.

Wrestlers can not use their typical stances or their faces become nothing more than targets for knees and low kicks.

Both styles had to change because of the rules.

As this is a CMA board, we have seen every conceivable stance and many more that aren't conceivable. Trust me when I say this, a few little mma tweaks do not freak us out. We can get our minds around it. We have also come across every conceivable strike. We recognize needlessly sloppy and off balance at least I do.

[HumbleWCGuy]

top guys also go where the money is, at the moment in the UK MMA pays more than Thai so the trainers don't mind training the guys for a cut of the purse

Who are the top MT trainers in the U.K. right now?

[t_niehoff]

top guys also go where the money is, at the moment in the UK MMA pays more than Thai so the trainers don't mind training the guys for a cut of the purse

Not only that, but many good MMA guys GO to, seek out, top trainers in particular fields.

But, you need to keep in mind, they go to the best trainers that also have a good grasp of MMA -- so they may not seek out the "best" boxing coaches since they may have no grasp of how boxing needs to be modified for MMA.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Given allowances for adjustments to mma, the striking is not premium.

Compared to what?

[t_niehoff]

Who are the top MT trainers in the U.K. right now?

Why don't you name some of the top MT schools in the US? Would you consider Saekson Janjira, Fairtex, Sityodong, The Wat as top schools? Don't they all also train MMA fighters?

[Frost]

Who are the top MT trainers in the U.K. right now?

not really that up on thai these days but here are some i know

master sken and his guys, always produce world champs. sandy holt former world champ runs some mma classes and trains some fighters

Charles Joseph andTony Myers, who both teach at troygen MMA gym and who have also taught in mikes gym in holland and a few other places and are International referees in thai boxing

Rupert Smillie produces some great thai guys in nottingham and also trains paul daley dan hardy etc for mma

[Frost]

As this is a CMA board, we have seen every conceivable stance and many more that aren't conceivable. Trust me when I say this, a few little mma tweaks do not freak us out. We can get our minds around it. We have also come across every conceivable strike. We recognize needlessly sloppy and off balance at least I do.

really, i have seen those same MMA strikes freak out TCMA stylists and knock them out, if you could do better why not offer your services to some of the bigger teams in the US?

[HumbleWCGuy]

Compared to what?

Read every post that I have written. I am tired of repeating myself.

[CFT]

really, i have seen those same MMA strikes freak out TCMA stylists and knock them out, if you could do better why not offer your services to some of the bigger teams in the US?Didn't you read him, my old Frosty?


Top coaches are not that interested in teaching people who can't or won't master their art. I wouldn't want to cast these professionals as mercenary, but a job's a job right? Driving instructors don't pre-vet their potential students.

[t_niehoff]

Phil, let me set you straight.


Some people think if it's not MMA then it's no good.


No, that's not it.

Fighting, unless you have a ruleset that restricts the range/skillset, is going to "look" like MMA since MMA permits you to fight in every range of the fight -- it's going to involve stand-up/free-movement, clinch, and ground. That's what we have to prepare for IF we want to be a well-rounded fighter, if we want to be prepared for whatever comes our way. Sure, we can sometimes get away with a limited skill set, we can win with just boxing or just WCK or just BJJ, but we can't rely on that always being the case.

And, if you want to make your art, whatever it is, functional in fighting (dealing with all ranges) then you NEED to go work with MMA people since then you will be dealing (sparring) with people who are proficient in all ranges, whoo will be trying to take advantage of your weaknesses, and that will allow you to modify what you are doing to take all that into account. You may, for example, be a superb boxer, but when you go train at a MMA gym you will see how many of your habits open you to things outside of boxing (takedowns, kicks, etc.).

[Sardinkahnikov]

The casting punch is a standard part of Sambo. I also think that one of the reasons you don't see a whole lot of combinations is a combination of fear of takedowns and the small gloves.

MMA striking is more like bare knuckle boxing. It tends to be long range and more power shots than jabs. If either fighter gets inside it immediatly switches to clinch fighting, either mauy thai with lots of knees or wrestling with takedowns. In bare knuckle boxing throws were allowed so little or no clinch fighting (punches) developed there either.

Jabs can be dangerous because a good wrestler will follow the jab back with a single leg takedown shot, so if you hit you must do some damage to discourage the shot. Jabs came about in boxing after the throws and grappling were removed from the rules.

Edit: Another thing that makes combinations difficult is that wrestlers will shot immediatley after a punch and if you get caught in the takedown attempt while throwing your straight right following the jab you are scr3wed.

I don't know much about MMA or boxing, but there is something I wanted to ask regarding distance fighting and the transition to the clinch or takedown:

Most of the Wing Chun schools tend to emphasize the "short brigde" aspect of the fight, correct? Well, I've heard many people saying that the said "short bridge" isn't such a useful tactic because, when you close the distance, you'll probably end up in a clinch or getting taken down, or at least finding yourself defending against a takedown attempt. So, how do you think the "short bridge", as usually practiced in Wing Chun, relates to the dangers presented by grappling?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Read every post that I have written. I am tired of repeating myself.

That's just it, isn't it?
You are comparing it to something that it is not.
The grappling in MMA is "atrocious" compared to Submission grappling in the Abu Dhabi for example, but you can't compare it because MMA grappling is NOT submission grappling.

BTW, your humility is outstanding.

[t_niehoff]

I don't know much about MMA or boxing, but there is something I wanted to ask regarding distance fighting and the transition to the clinch or takedown:

Most of the Wing Chun schools tend to emphasize the "short brigde" aspect of the fight, correct? Well, I've heard many people saying that the said "short bridge" isn't such a useful tactic because, when you close the distance, you'll probably end up in a clinch or getting taken down, or at least finding yourself defending against a takedown attempt. So, how do you think the "short bridge", as usually practiced in Wing Chun, relates to the dangers presented by grappling?

WCK is a method of dirty clinch boxing, where our objective is to control the opponent while striking him (a combo of grappling and striking). So, we close the distance TO clinch. And if you control the clinch, you have less likelihood of being taken down.

[Dragonzbane76]

The grappling in MMA is "atrocious" compared to Submission grappling in the Abu Dhabi for example, but you can't compare it because MMA grappling is NOT submission grappling.

Heard this many times and seems to be true when watching some of the abu dhabi events. Lots of top fighters in mma have tried it and lost. only one i can think of off the top of my head that actually did well was Jeff Monson, but i think that's where he started his career was in the abu dhabi if i'm not mistaken.

[Frost]

I don't know much about MMA or boxing, but there is something I wanted to ask regarding distance fighting and the transition to the clinch or takedown:

Most of the Wing Chun schools tend to emphasize the "short brigde" aspect of the fight, correct? Well, I've heard many people saying that the said "short bridge" isn't such a useful tactic because, when you close the distance, you'll probably end up in a clinch or getting taken down, or at least finding yourself defending against a takedown attempt. So, how do you think the "short bridge", as usually practiced in Wing Chun, relates to the dangers presented by grappling?

i think that in most cases if you are not including the full clinch in your bridge training and allowing takedowns your bridge skills will fall apart when these areas are allowed they are simply to easy to get to and such a natural movement for most people.
people do not hang about in the bridge zone if they are allowed to clinch and takedown, if you are trained to deal with them then your bridge skills will be useful, if not you will be in trouble

[m1k3]

WCK is a method of dirty clinch boxing, where our objective is to control the opponent while striking him (a combo of grappling and striking). So, we close the distance TO clinch. And if you control the clinch, you have less likelihood of being taken down.

Agreed, unless your opponent is a Judo or Greco player, then all bets are off. :D

[Frost]

Heard this many times and seems to be true when watching some of the abu dhabi events. Lots of top fighters in mma have tried it and lost. only one i can think of off the top of my head that actually did well was Jeff Monson, but i think that's where he started his career was in the abu dhabi if i'm not mistaken.

they are two seperate skills, i know a guy that at best is a bjj purple beat 4 bjj blackbelts in a row in MMA last year, now he is a judo champ but no where near these guys in terms of pure grappling, getting hit changes the game alot

[Dragonzbane76]

getting hit changes the game alot

agree 100%, adding any of the levels of fighting to others changes the way you fight.

[t_niehoff]

Agreed, unless your opponent is a Judo or Greco player, then all bets are off. :D

That's why cross-training is your friend. :)

[goju]

the mma gym i was at was heavily boxing oriented and they didnt tell us to change our punching style or that punching in these wide arching motion was the way you had to do it


of course you had to modify the boxing but this jsut meant adding thing to it like take down defense clinching etc etc

i recall it may have been nick or nate diaz talk about boxing in mma and he said that so many mma people are too busy running around just flat out saying something doesnt work instead of stfu and learning the technique and actually trying it out:D

[t_niehoff]

That's why cross-training is your friend. :)

And to quote my own post, I just don't understand why people see MMA or cross-training as "the enemy". It can only help you.

[Frost]

the mma gym i was at was heavily boxing oriented and they didnt tell us to change our punching style or that punching in these wide arching motion was the way you had to do it


of course you had to modify the boxing but this jsut meant adding thing to it like take down defense clinching etc etc

i recall it may have been nick or nate diaz talk about boxing in mma and he said that so many mma people are too busy running around just flat out saying something doesnt work instead of stfu and learning the technique and actually trying it out:D

and thats your experience, the gyms i have trained at and that others have trained at have had a different experience

[Frost]

agree 100%, adding any of the levels of fighting to others changes the way you fight.

true, thats why its pointless saying mma fighters have bad hands, or that the takedowns in MMA would never happen in wrestling...they are all different sports and need to be treated differently

[goju]

and thats your experience, the gyms i have trained at and that others have trained at have had a different experience

but thats the point if it can be trained and applied in the traditional boxing way than people are just making excuses for having sloppy stand up

[sanjuro_ronin]

i recall it may have been nick or nate diaz talk about boxing in mma and he said that so many mma people are too busy running around just flat out saying something doesnt work instead of stfu and learning the technique and actually trying it out

You're not suggesting that Fedor is lazy or sloppy are you? because he doesn't have "classical boxing punches" ?

[Frost]

but thats the point if it can be trained and applied in the traditional boxing way than people are just making excuses for having sloppy stand up

as i have said this is your point of view and your conclusion, mine is different as is alot of peoples, you seem to think most pros stand up is sloppy, i know from feeling their standup its not, you believe striking does not have to change in MMA, my views and that of the coaches i know is different

[Frost]

You're not suggesting that Fedor is lazy or sloppy are you? because he doesn't have "classical boxing punches" ?

come on he quoted the diaz brothers for gods sake like they are some source on MMA striking:D

[goju]

You're not suggesting that Fedor is lazy or sloppy are you? because he doesn't have "classical boxing punches" ?
yes but the man has one hell of a punch and thats saved him .. so far :)

hey dont get me wrong im a huge fedor fan but the guy isnt a great striker

[Frost]

yes but the man has one hell of a punch and thats saved him .. so far :)

hey dont wrong im a huge fedor fan but the guy isnt a great striker

not a great striker, he beat rogers, cro cop and alovski on his feet, never been knocked down.... you really need to think these statements through more

[HumbleWCGuy]

but thats the point if it can be trained and applied in the traditional boxing way than people are just making excuses for having sloppy stand up

That's exactly It. Nothing but excuses for sloppy fighting.

[HumbleWCGuy]

not a great striker, he beat rogers, cro cop and alovski on his feet, never been knocked down.... you really need to think these statements through more

Cro Crop proved to be a 1 trick pony Arlovski has no chin.

[goju]

not a great striker, he beat rogers, cro cop and alovski on his feet, never been knocked down.... you really need to think these statements through more
yes and rogers was kicking his ass before he landed his hay maker so was arvloski and so was cro cop

what saved him is what ive said the man has incredible punching power
probably some of the best out there in mma today if not ever

[m1k3]

the mma gym i was at was heavily boxing oriented and they didnt tell us to change our punching style or that punching in these wide arching motion was the way you had to do it


of course you had to modify the boxing but this jsut meant adding thing to it like take down defense clinching etc etc

i recall it may have been nick or nate diaz talk about boxing in mma and he said that so many mma people are too busy running around just flat out saying something doesnt work instead of stfu and learning the technique and actually trying it out:D

I find this quote interesting. I am currently a submission grappler and I train at an mma gym. The guy who teaches the class is a bjj blackbelt who has fought mma and trains mma fighters. In class we always go over the moves from a pure grappling standpoint and then how the move has to be modified to be used in mma or just how to use it when striking is involved.

Goju, are you saying that your trainer uses a straight boxing methodology to teach striking with only adding some grappling defenses on top?

Speaking from the grappling point of view the footwork, timing and stances can change a lot as you transition from sub-grappling to mma

[Frost]

That's exactly It. Nothing but excuses for sloppy fighting.

quite right they don't spend hours on their stand up training at all:rolleyes: if only they had a traditional guy like you to show them ow its done:)

[Frost]

Cro Crop proved to be a 1 trick pony Arlovski has no chin.

one of K1's top striekrs of all time and prides number 2 for 4 years or so, thats one hell of a trick

Arlovski was UFC champ as well as a good boer, not bad for a glass chin

[Frost]

yes and rogers was kicking his ass before he landed his hay maker so was arvloski and so was cro cop

what saved him is what ive said the man has incredible punching power
probably some of the best out there in mma today if not ever

have you watched the cro cop fight, he beat him sensless for all 5 rounds, rogers was kicking his ass... LMAO did you ven watch the fight?

yep and that power comes from sloppy boxing, imagine how good he would be if he followed your example and boxed properly:D

[goju]

I find this quote interesting. I am currently a submission grappler and I train at an mma gym. The guy who teaches the class is a bjj blackbelt who has fought mma and trains mma fighters. In class we always go over the moves from a pure grappling standpoint and then how the move has to be modified to be used in mma or just how to use it when striking is involved.

Goju, are you saying that your trainer uses a straight boxing methodology to teach striking with only adding some grappling defenses on top?

Speaking from the grappling point of view the footwork, timing and stances can change a lot as you transition from sub-grappling to mma

no they just blended the boxing stand up perfectly with grappling

obviously you have to add things to boxing to suceed in an mma type scenario
however they kept pretty much everything youll find in a traditional boxing gym they just expanded on it a it by adding other things instead of removing huge chunks of it

[Frost]

I find this quote interesting. I am currently a submission grappler and I train at an mma gym. The guy who teaches the class is a bjj blackbelt who has fought mma and trains mma fighters. In class we always go over the moves from a pure grappling standpoint and then how the move has to be modified to be used in mma or just how to use it when striking is involved.

Goju, are you saying that your trainer uses a straight boxing methodology to teach striking with only adding some grappling defenses on top?

Speaking from the grappling point of view the footwork, timing and stances can change a lot as you transition from sub-grappling to mma

what a shock you train at an MMA gym that actually competes and trains good fighters..so do i and our veiws seem to be the same...makes you wonder about those on here saying something different from us doesn't it?

[sanjuro_ronin]

yes and rogers was kicking his ass before he landed his hay maker so was arvloski and so was cro cop

what saved him is what ive said the man has incredible punching power
probably some of the best out there in mma today if not ever

As one CLF master one said, "Fedor has some nice CLF".
:D

[goju]

have you watched the cro cop fight, he beat him sensless for all 5 rounds, rogers was kicking his ass... LMAO did you ven watch the fight?

yep and that power comes from sloppy boxing, imagine how good he would be if he followed your example and boxed properly:D

yes the only time fedor was dominant in that fight was when he took rogers to the ground and when he dropped him like a sack of potatoes at the end

i saw that fight the first it was aired rogers was controlling the stand up

same with arvolski his foot work and leaping in an out one twos were frustrating fedor until he decided he was ong bak thia arior and went for the leaping knee

lol yeah no thats not where is power comes from:D

[ittokaos]

Ha ha. Why is everybody that is quick to "defend" MMA sloppiness not defending it at all. It's all "Well, you can't compare it to a style that is more technical." and the like. Why not though? Why is it that all styles can be compared to MMA and then deemed "unfit for fighting" but when one aspect of MMA is called sloppy, all of a sudden comparrisons are considered unfair. The arguement given is "MMA isn't boxing, KB, MT, etc.." when it very much is.

It is a mixture of all of that and the way you know is that the fighters are constantly telling the viewer that. "I trained in (Insert style here) for x amount of years" and then the commentators will repeat that. The bell rings and everyone goes back to the school yard with sloppy haymakers. On the way down to the ring, the fighters will throw a few punches and elbows to let the crowd know that the battle is getting ready to start. However, half the punches they did, they won't use and almost no one uses elbows at all.

One arguement was the wild haymakers are used to set up for grappling later. I suppose since they possibly dont train to strike someone when they are in "grappling" range, a straight punch when someone is at a perfect distance(and completely open I might add) makes no sense. I get that. I do. But why no elbows? Aren't elbows used in MT(which is a part of MMA) when you are in the clinch in order to pummel/get out of it?

The Anderson Silva link was awesome but that itself is an unfair comparrision. If you were to get the majority of MMA stirkers(not BBJers that also strike, almost pure stand up fighters) they may never be able to compare to the technical striking and precision of Anderson Silva. Period. He is, right now, the best (in my opinion of course). If this discussion were to switch from "MMA striking sucks when compared to (insert style here)" and became "Standard MMA striking sucks compared to Anderson Silva", would it be better received?

The bottom line is that the majority of MMA people have bad hands(and feet for that matter). Making excuses isn't going to change that. So, with that solved, how would you guys change that? What styles do you think MMA fighters should focus on to be better fighters? What styles would you like to see used in order to make MMA more entertaining?

[HumbleWCGuy]

quite right they don't spend hours on their stand up training at all:rolleyes: if only they had a traditional guy like you to show them ow its done:)

They don't need me when they have you to apologize for their mistakes. There is nothing more pathetic than a grown man apologizing for another.

[goju]

http://www.vidoemo.com/yvideo.php?i=aW05TnpCcWuRpY2l0aHM&iron-body
another casting type strike used with the forearm

[Frost]

They don't need me when they have you to apologize for their mistakes. There is nothing more pathetic than a grown man apologizing for another.

as per usual you can't fault the arguement as you have no frame of reference so you start the insults :rolleyes:

want to know what is really pathetic? a no name arm chair fighter afraid to give his fight record or school out who says its all done wrong but who can't prove he has had 1 single fight or even beem in an MMA gym much less trained in one

[Frost]

yes the only time fedor was dominant in that fight was when he took rogers to the ground and when he dropped him like a sack of potatoes at the end

i saw that fight the first it was aired rogers was controlling the stand up

same with arvolski his foot work and leaping in an out one twos were frustrating fedor until he decided he was ong bak thia arior and went for the leaping knee

lol yeah no thats not where is power comes from:D

you need to watch the rogers fight again

[Frost]

Ha ha. Why is everybody that is quick to "defend" MMA sloppiness not defending it at all. It's all "Well, you can't compare it to a style that is more technical." and the like. Why not though? Why is it that all styles can be compared to MMA and then deemed "unfit for fighting" but when one aspect of MMA is called sloppy, all of a sudden comparrisons are considered unfair. The arguement given is "MMA isn't boxing, KB, MT, etc.." when it very much is.

It is a mixture of all of that and the way you know is that the fighters are constantly telling the viewer that. "I trained in (Insert style here) for x amount of years" and then the commentators will repeat that. The bell rings and everyone goes back to the school yard with sloppy haymakers. On the way down to the ring, the fighters will throw a few punches and elbows to let the crowd know that the battle is getting ready to start. However, half the punches they did, they won't use and almost no one uses elbows at all.

One arguement was the wild haymakers are used to set up for grappling later. I suppose since they possibly dont train to strike someone when they are in "grappling" range, a straight punch when someone is at a perfect distance(and completely open I might add) makes no sense. I get that. I do. But why no elbows? Aren't elbows used in MT(which is a part of MMA) when you are in the clinch in order to pummel/get out of it?

The Anderson Silva link was awesome but that itself is an unfair comparrision. If you were to get the majority of MMA stirkers(not BBJers that also strike, almost pure stand up fighters) they may never be able to compare to the technical striking and precision of Anderson Silva. Period. He is, right now, the best (in my opinion of course). If this discussion were to switch from "MMA striking sucks when compared to (insert style here)" and became "Standard MMA striking sucks compared to Anderson Silva", would it be better received?

The bottom line is that the majority of MMA people have bad hands(and feet for that matter). Making excuses isn't going to change that. So, with that solved, how would you guys change that? What styles do you think MMA fighters should focus on to be better fighters? What styles would you like to see used in order to make MMA more entertaining?

LMAO not another one, i gave 7 points as to why MMA striking is different to normal straight stand up and to why it looks different. Want to know why there are few elbows like in thai, try training those elbows when takedowns are aloud then you will know why

[HumbleWCGuy]

as per usual you can't fault the arguement as you have no frame of reference so you start the insults :rolleyes:

want to know what is really pathetic? a no name arm chair fighter afraid to give his fight record or school out who says its all done wrong but who can't prove he has had 1 single fight or even beem in an MMA gym much less trained in one
You are here to tell us how WC is wrong and I don't see your fight clips, record, or name. I am still waiting for a reasonable justification for why sloppy, off-balanced striking is necessary for mma. Why don't you put up a video to break it down for us?

[CFT]

But why no elbows? Aren't elbows used in MT(which is a part of MMA) when you are in the clinch in order to pummel/get out of it?You're confusing the skillset for the competition. MT and MMA competition rules are not the same.


The bottom line is that the majority of MMA people have bad hands(and feet for that matter). Making excuses isn't going to change that. So, with that solved, how would you guys change that? What styles do you think MMA fighters should focus on to be better fighters?Why is it so hard for people to accept that the competition rules change the expression of the component techniques?


What styles would you like to see used in order to make MMA more entertaining?Cotswold shin kicking, Lancashire clog fighting, Drunken boxing, thumb wrestling.

[goju]

LMAO not another one, i gave 7 points as to why MMA striking is different to normal straight stand up and to why it looks different. Want to know why there are few elbows like in thai, try training those elbows when takedowns are aloud then you will know why

yes but again why do you see guys in their with text book thai boxing, boxing etcetc?

hell most of the ufc champiosn now are crisp clean punchers
bj penn. gsp. anderson, lyoto

if they can do it why cant anyone else:D

sure you can argue they have a ground game so they dont have to worry about being taken down but so so should every other fighter as well

[sanjuro_ronin]

hell most of the ufc champiosn now are crisp clean punchers
bj penn. gsp. anderson, lyoto

if they can do it why cant anyone else:D

sure you can argue they have a ground game so they dont have to worry about being taken down but so so should every other fighter as well

Lets be honest here, What Lyoto does would drive ANY TMA ( Shotokan) sensei crazy.
Gsp has a core kyokushin and MT and while he has flashes of excellence in his strikes, they are NOT classical Kyokushin or MT and as for Anderson, his striking is superb, but is hardly "picture perfect" for a Thai fighter.
if we are gonna nit pick lets nit pick across the board.

[goju]

Lets be honest here, What Lyoto does would drive ANY TMA ( Shotokan) sensei crazy.
Gsp has a core kyokushin and MT and while he has flashes of excellence in his strikes, they are NOT classical Kyokushin or MT and as for Anderson, his striking is superb, but is hardly "picture perfect" for a Thai fighter.
if we are gonna nit pick lets nit pick across the board.

yes but the point is look a their strikes you rarely see wide loopy attacks out of them and it doesnt seem to hurt them ( obviously since they are holding belts)

most people just have a hard time punching tighter and more direct for some reason

:D

[sanjuro_ronin]

yes but the point is look a their strikes you rarely see wide loopy attacks out of them and it doesnt seem to hurt them ( obviously since they are holding belts)

most people just have a hard time punching tighter and more direct for some reason

:D

Every time you critique "wide loopy punches" you make all the CLF guys wanna best your ass !
LOL !

[goju]

Every time you critique "wide loopy punches" you make all the CLF guys wanna best your ass !
LOL !

lol i know ive been thinking that for a while now ahahaha:D

[sanjuro_ronin]

lol i know ive been thinking that for a while now ahahaha:D

While I admit that too many MMA tend to be sloppy because they just don't focus that much on striking, at least not compared to those that came IN with a striking background, you do need to understand how much the grappling and takedown elements change the delivery platform of strikes, some fighters just end up preferring "wide" punches because they have to commit less of their BW to each strike.
Other times some guys are just sloppy.

[Frost]

You are here to tell us how WC is wrong and I don't see your fight clips, record, or name. I am still waiting for a reasonable justification for why sloppy, off-balanced striking is necessary for mma. Why don't you put up a video to break it down for us?

nope i am here to tell YOUyou are clueless about mma and grappling and training principles, i have posted my club before and the guys i train with, i'll do it again if you want to do the same, oh and frost is my name

[Frost]

You're confusing the skillset for the competition. MT and MMA competition rules are not the same.

Why is it so hard for people to accept that the competition rules change the expression of the component techniques?

Cotswold shin kicking, Lancashire clog fighting, Drunken boxing, thumb wrestling.

thank you, pure gold and 100% correct on every point

[goju]

, some fighters just end up preferring "wide" punches because they have to commit less of their BW to each strike.
Other times some guys are just sloppy.

oh yeah defintely a bit of both

[Frost]

Lets be honest here, What Lyoto does would drive ANY TMA ( Shotokan) sensei crazy.
Gsp has a core kyokushin and MT and while he has flashes of excellence in his strikes, they are NOT classical Kyokushin or MT and as for Anderson, his striking is superb, but is hardly "picture perfect" for a Thai fighter.
if we are gonna nit pick lets nit pick across the board.

oh stop being sensible you know that does not work here:)

on a side note he lists what 5 or 6 people he considers to have good striking in MMA, i tend to look at the norm and not the exceptions. Now there are dozens of good strikers who transition to MMA who look nothing like they look in thai, K1 or kick boxing, i wonder why this is.....:rolleyes:

[HumbleWCGuy]

nope i am here to tell YOUyou are clueless about mma and grappling and training principles, i have posted my club before and the guys i train with, i'll do it again if you want to do the same, oh and frost is my name

No, you are just here to demonstrate that you are clueless and here you go again. Tell us more about how sloppy off-balance striking is the way to go. Are you a monkey kung fu practitioner?

[goju]

oh stop being sensible you know that does not work here:)

on a side note he lists what 5 or 6 people he considers to have good striking in MMA, i tend to look at the norm and not the exceptions. Now there are dozens of good strikers who transition to MMA who look nothing like they look in thai, K1 or kick boxing, i wonder why this is.....:rolleyes:

i dotn believe in exceptions

if it can be done once it can be doen again and again and again:D

[Frost]

No, you are just here to demonstrate that you are clueless and here you go again. Tell us more about how sloppy off-balance striking is the way to go. Are you a monkey kung fu practitioner?

me clueless this is pure comedy gold coming from you:)

What MMA gyms have you trained in, and with which figthers and coaches?:D

[Frost]

[QUOTE=goju;992421]i dotn believe in exceptions

if it can be done once it can be doen again and again and again:D[/QUOTE

and if its not done over and over there is usually a good reason for this

[goju]

my dislike of wide looping punches also comes fromt he fact i have extremely long limbs(think bones jones like)

by the time my spider monkey arm comes around the person im attacking has time to to go see amovie and come back before it connects lol

so as a result of my body i tend to make my punches direct and i move around alot and leap in an out when i spar so it only makes sense to use strait attacks when youre constantly moving around

[goju]

[QUOTE=goju;992421]i dotn believe in exceptions

if it can be done once it can be doen again and again and again:D[/QUOTE

and if its not done over and over there is usually a good reason for this

its been done more than enough to prove it works:D:p

[HumbleWCGuy]

me clueless this is pure comedy gold coming from you:)

What MMA gyms have you trained in, and with which figthers and coaches?:D

Every word that you type demonstrates that you are completely clueless.

[Frost]

Every word that you type demonstrates that you are completely clueless.

lmao sure nice reply

[Phil Redmond]

. . . . What I find interesting is the people who couldn't last a minute with a decent (competent) MMA fighter pointing out the "technical flaws" in their game. To me, this is like really poor golfers trying to technically critique the games of the pros. Every one of you would be wel;l-served to spend some significant time training with some good fighters instead of theorizing how you really know better.
I'm not saying ALL MMA fighters. Two friends of mine are/were boxers. One still is boxing and one was once an Olympic medalist before he became pro say the same thing. You can't say they haven't fought against "skilled" opponents in the ring.

[t_niehoff]

I'm not saying ALL MMA fighters. Two friends of mine are/were boxers. One still is boxing and one was once an Olympic medalist before he became pro say the same thing. You can't say they haven't fought against "skilled" opponents in the ring.

Yes, they've sparred against good boxers and certainly know boxing -- but it doesn't give them great insight into how to apply the boxing skillset in MMA.

And, while THEY may have the ability to point out technical flaws, that doesn't mean YOU do.

[t_niehoff]

You are here to tell us how WC is wrong and I don't see your fight clips, record, or name. I am still waiting for a reasonable justification for why sloppy, off-balanced striking is necessary for mma. Why don't you put up a video to break it down for us?

This wasn't directedat me, but I thought a reply was warranted.

No one is here saying "how WC is wrong". Rather, various person's -- like your's -- ideas, interpretations, practices, etc. concerning WCK are good, bad, wrong, etc.

As I said before, fighting is fighting, it tends to get sloppy, that's the nature of it. After all, you've an opponent that is doing everything they can to make you miss, to hit you, etc. Boxers are sometimes off-balance, sloppy, etc. Is that necessary for boxing?

[goju]

And, while THEY may have the ability to point out technical flaws, that doesn't mean YOU do.

you should follow your own advice bubba
:D

[Frost]

I'm not saying ALL MMA fighters. Two friends of mine are/were boxers. One still is boxing and one was once an Olympic medalist before he became pro say the same thing. You can't say they haven't fought against "skilled" opponents in the ring.

ok so why do you think MMA fighters look as you put it sloppy, and how can you account for so many good K1 and thai guys going into MMA and looking nothing like they do in thai?

[Frost]

Yes, they've sparred against good boxers and certainly know boxing -- but it doesn't give them great insight into how to apply the boxing skillset in MMA.

And, while THEY may have the ability to point out technical flaws, that doesn't mean YOU do.
True
heres an idea go put 2 boxers in a cage stick 4oz gloves on them tell them that at the first sign of a knock down the ref will stop the fight, and that if one of them gets knocked down the other can kick him on the ground and watch hos the game changes:D

[t_niehoff]

you should follow your own advice bubba
:D

Dude, I'm not trying to point out their technical flaws.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Dude, I'm not trying to point out their technical flaws.

As a matter of fact, the only thing you have every really done is point out that most WC training isn't as realistic as it can and should be, which means that, UNLESS YOU weren't doing the training that YOU advice, YOU would be guilty of where you are being "accused" of, which isn't the case.

[SAAMAG]

That's why cross-training is your friend. :)

The most simple and profound epiphany that others have yet to realize.

[SAAMAG]

I just read the entire thread....and main question was answered most thoroughly on the second page with Frost's reply.

I mean...how hard is it to understand? They're not at the same level as other styles that deal with striking only...and the ruleset of each sporting event will determine how and what is used.

If in Judo, I start punching people as they come at me, that's going to change how people randori, because now they have to worry about getting around those punches. Same thing goes for BJJ. Same thing goes for Boxing (or WING CHUN) if you add in takedowns and ground and pound.

But to put it more succinctly...they do it because it works in that environment. As the threats change, so will the tactics and techniques...its evolution.

[Frost]

I just read the entire thread....and main question was answered most thoroughly on the second page with Frost's reply.

I mean...how hard is it to understand? They're not at the same level as other styles that deal with striking only...and the ruleset of each sporting event will determine how and what is used.

If in Judo, I start punching people as they come at me, that's going to change how people randori, because now they have to worry about getting around those punches. Same thing goes for BJJ. Same thing goes for Boxing (or WING CHUN) if you add in takedowns and ground and pound.

But to put it more succinctly...they do it because it works in that environment. As the threats change, so will the tactics and techniques...its evolution.

you read it all? man you are a glutten for punishment :D

[Pork Chop]

why is the standard in MMA so bad?
why are so many of these wild sloppy punches so lucky?
why did Randy get destroyed by someone throwing wide open punches (liddel)

its beacuse MMA is not K1 or kick boxing, and striking in MMA reflects a few basic facts:
1) fecking small gloves which mean all kinds of strikes slip through that would get blocked with nice big boxing gloves
2)wide casting punches are great to set up take downs (that why the sambo guys punch like this, its not russian boxing it comes from the combat sambo guys)
3) you don't get much time to throw nice combinations and set up power shots, you throw more than 3 punches and you normally get clinched and takedown etc, so all your punches better count, (no nice clean jabs to set up the overhand right please)
4) wide swinging punches generate power from the waist so you don't need to set your feet, you can throw them on the move or when you are in trouble, handy if you are moving away from a takeown or your legs are shot and you can't plant them for power (anyone see manioff get knocked out on strike force by a single wild swinging punch when dominating the stand up and taking the guys base out with leg kicks)
5)most fighters stand slightly squarer with lower stances than in pure striking, this helps deal with the take down and allows for power punches of both hands, but does not make for nice clean punches
6) striking is probably the least important aspect of MMA, the clinch and the ground normally dominate so most guys learn just enough to get by (but look at good strikers coming into MMA, daley, Manhoeff Hardy, they have to adapt or they lose, you throw too many punches you get takedown or knocked out, so you throw less punches as a striker but try to make them count)
7) no three knock down rule or 8 seconds standing counts, if you get knocked down and can't defend the fights over, this means very few guys are willing to stand and throw combinations for fear of the one lucky punch taking them out (meianoff was winning the above fight hands down, stayed in the pocket too long thinking it was a thai match and got KO'd by a shot that was wild and lucky, go figure)

MMA is not pure striking nor is it pure wrestling or pure BJJ, its different and changes all the rules in the above pure sports: thats why in MMA BJJ blackbelts lose to purples and good wrestlers get takendown by sloppy shots.

saw that i was late to the game on this thread
started reading to see if i had anything to add
read this post and realize that i have don't have anything else of value to contribute
Frost didn't even have the common courtesy to give "the correct" a reacharound.

oh yah, one more example - surprised you didn't mention hendo vs bisping (any of his KO wins actually); dan takes a deep step like he's going for a shot - gets perfect position between mike's legs & instead of dropping level, he drops a megaton bomb that takes bisping's head off. using the shot to set up strikes is a valid strategy.

[Frost]

saw that i was late to the game on this thread
started reading to see if i had anything to add
read this post and realize that i have don't have anything else of value to contribute
Frost didn't even have the common courtesy to give "the correct" a reacharound.

oh yah, one more example - surprised you didn't mention hendo vs bisping (any of his KO wins actually); dan takes a deep step like he's going for a shot - gets perfect position between mike's legs & instead of dropping level, he drops a megaton bomb that takes bisping's head off. using the shot to set up strikes is a valid strategy.

yep i've seen guys fake the shot and kick the guy or knee him as he level changes to defend.

it works boths ways though I also seen a friend of mine beat a thai guy do faking a leg kick then shooting as he raised his leg to check the kick

[SAAMAG]

yep i've seen guys fake the shot and kick the guy or knee him as he level changes to defend.

it works boths ways though I also seen a friend of mine beat a thai guy do faking a leg kick then shooting as he raised his leg to check the kick

Didn't Bruce say that the use of the feint is the sign of an experienced fighter? As good as MT is, using it purely outside of the ring is a little dangerous as illustrated by your post.

Then again, the other day I had a buddy of mine thai kick my thigh and I dropped because of how spot on it was. I think I'd rather be taken down and work from the back or side or top or whatever.

[m1k3]

That is why I prefer grappling. I am too pretty to get hit and besides that I cry easily when struck. You can twist me into horrid positions and even choke me but what ever you do don't hit me. :D

[SAAMAG]

Don't be so sure on not getting struck. I had a girl in the MMA / BJJ class jack me in the face with her foot trying to scramble for a transition from her back. Normally, I like to keep things at a nice steady / slow pace when rolling, use control and technique...but man...this chick was all over the fuggin place flailing around trying to get subs.

Gave me a nice deep gash above my lip...but a little superglue later and a few weeks and the scar is barely noticeable. Who says white belts aren't dangerous?! ;)

[Dragonzbane76]

super glue fixes anything. I could have an open fracture and be like stick some super glue on it i'll be fine. :)

[HumbleWCGuy]

This wasn't directedat me, but I thought a reply was warranted.

No one is here saying "how WC is wrong". Rather, various person's -- like your's -- ideas, interpretations, practices, etc. concerning WCK are good, bad, wrong, etc.

As I said before, fighting is fighting, it tends to get sloppy, that's the nature of it. After all, you've an opponent that is doing everything they can to make you miss, to hit you, etc. Boxers are sometimes off-balance, sloppy, etc. Is that necessary for boxing?

I wish that you would stop acting like no one but you has had a spec of legitimate sparring time or full-contact fights. Missing punches or being hit does not imply sloppy by the way. These are to be expected. Sloppy is in part being repeatedly hit with haymakers and other telegraphed shots consistently along with repeatedly attempting to deliver them . Defensive and offensive errors along with some footwork mistakes or lack there of and you have sloppy.

[SAAMAG]

I wish that you would stop acting like no one but you has had a spec of legitimate sparring time or full-contact fights. Missing punches or being hit does not imply sloppy by the way. These are to be expected. Sloppy is in part being repeatedly hit with haymakers and other telegraphed shots consistently along with repeatedly attempting to deliver them . Defensive and offensive errors along with some footwork mistakes or lack there of and you have sloppy.

I'd consider sloppy to be defined as inferior technique. For example throwing a punch without all the joints lined up, or not following through, or not pulling back, etc.

Any technique can be sloppy or precise be it a haymaker, jab, cross, hook, or uppercut.

[Phil Redmond]

While I admit that too many MMA tend to be sloppy because they just don't focus that much on striking, at least not compared to those that came IN with a striking background, you do need to understand how much the grappling and takedown elements change the delivery platform of strikes, some fighters just end up preferring "wide" punches because they have to commit less of their BW to each strike.
Other times some guys are just sloppy.

That was my point for starting the thread. Some people think that the only skilled fighters have to train MMA. Does that mean MMA fighters can beat any other MA or street fighter simply because they do MMA? Of course not. In real fights there are too many X factors. The whole story isn't told here but here's an example of S**t can happen in the streets. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uL3s41Sbubo
I have nothing against MMA. Those guys are in better shape and can take more punishment that the average TMA.
Now I know that skilled fighter should have a better chance in a fight but I've always believed that any fighter can have his ass handed to him on any given day.
No man, Grandmaster, MMA fighter, boxer. or whatever is invincible.
Also, do all skilled fighters have to be formally trained in MMA, TMA, boxing, MT or whatever?
There are some skilled street fighters out there with no "formal" training who gained skill in street fighting by street fighting. Yeah I know someone will say that they only fought unskilled fighters but some people's strength and attitude can overcome skill.

[Frost]

That was my point for starting the thread. Some people think that the only skilled fighters have to train MMA. Does that mean MMA fighters can beat any other MA or street fighter simply because they do MMA? Of course not. In real fights there are too many X factors. The whole story isn't told here but here's an example of S**t can happen in the streets. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uL3s41Sbubo
I have nothing against MMA. Those guys are in better shape and can take more punishment that the average TMA.
Now I know that skilled fighter should have a better chance in a fight but I've always believed that any fighter can have his ass handed to him on any given day.
No man, Grandmaster, MMA fighter, boxer. or whatever is invincible.
Also, do all skilled fighters have to be formally trained in MMA, TMA, boxing, MT or whatever?
There are some skilled street fighters out there with no "formal" training who gained skill in street fighting by street fighting. Yeah I know someone will say that they only fought unskilled fighters but some people's strength and attitude can overcome skill.

I thought the point of the thread was to ask my MMA stand up looked different to other forms of stand up fighting but hey ho to answer your question:


No some people think that the best way to learn how to fight empty handed is to train like an MMA guy, rather than do some forms, some sensitivty drills, some old weapons and do a bit of sparring, they should be doing mostly sparring standing up, in the clinch and on the floor, leaning to generate power through working the bag and the pads

yes some people are naturally good fighters, but the majority of normal peoplehave a better chance of becoming a fighter training this way that the way alot of TCMA schools train

[Dragonzbane76]

i think the debate has been beat down like the dying horse it is.

MMA hands may look sloppy but given the environment they are fighting in we can honestly say that grappling and clinch change a lot of things when fighting. It changes the dynamics of stand up. If we took the same MMA guy and told him that he can only use kicks and punches now, he would train in the manner of perfecting those area's while not having to worry about take downs. His hands would probably look more in the league of Muay thai and boxing. I've also seen some guys that have excellent hands get into the cage and it turns to crap because of the excitment and pressure.

[HumbleWCGuy]

i think the debate has been beat down like the dying horse it is.

MMA hands may look sloppy but given the environment they are fighting in we can honestly say that grappling and clinch change a lot of things when fighting. It changes the dynamics of stand up. If we took the same MMA guy and told him that he can only use kicks and punches now, he would train in the manner of perfecting those area's while not having to worry about take downs. His hands would probably look more in the league of Muay thai and boxing. I've also seen some guys that have excellent hands get into the cage and it turns to crap because of the excitment and pressure.

The hands look sloppy because they are. I would do some investigating before you go buying into what a few grapplers who think that they mmaists who come to a kung fu forum to talk smack after being called out on other mma forums.

[Dragonzbane76]

so your saying the grappling and clinch do not change the dynamic of the fight?

[HumbleWCGuy]

so your saying the grappling and clinch do not change the dynamic of the fight?

It changes the dynamics of a fight but it does not change the fundamentals of sound striking and striking defense. Boxing and kickboxing strategies can and do account for grappling. Grapplers are here just trying to justify slop.

Edit: Silva, Machida, GSP, and others are good examples. They have sound fundamental boxing and kickboxing that is not sloppy that they integrate into their mma. Guys who are sloppy, just aren't that good and that's all.

[Frost]

It changes the dynamics of a fight but it does not change the fundamentals of sound striking and striking defense. Boxing and kickboxing strategies can and do account for grappling. Grapplers are here just trying to justify slop.

Edit: Silva, Machida, GSP, and others are good examples. They have sound fundamental boxing and kickboxing that is not sloppy that they integrate into their mma. Guys who are sloppy, just aren't that good and that's all.

actually it does change the fundermentals, it changes stance, power generation, timing, and the ability to throw combinations, these are all fundermentals.

boxings strategy to deal with the clinch to to let the ref break it up, kick boxing does not have any take downs or clinching skills, thai does but its clinch looks different because of the no leg attacks in the clinch and the fact you do not score or really allow takedowns from body control

[HumbleWCGuy]

actually it does change the fundermentals, it changes stance, power generation, timing, and the ability to throw combinations, these are all fundermentals.

boxings strategy to deal with the clinch to to let the ref break it up, kick boxing does not have any take downs or clinching skills, thai does but its clinch looks different because of the no leg attacks in the clinch and the fact you do not score or really allow takedowns from body control

Every fundamental that you mentioned doesn't even figure into my assessment of mma striking. Although timing is an attribute; everyone is taught to throw combination but strategy dictates their use so no credible upright trainer would worry about it. As far as power generation mma only has a couple modified strikes that a boxer might mistake but not a kickboxer/MT.


Boxing and kickboxing/MT strategy can and does account for these adjustments. The fact that you only are looking at the offense feeds into my point. It's not just the fact that telegraphed strikes are consistently thrown it is that they consistently land. It's a clear lack of training in head movement, blocking, footwork, and other defensive tactics.

No one has accounted for this fact. You keep saying that mma striking is so different from standard striking but the fact is that the best mma strikers all look good to boxers and kicboxers/MT trainers. Would a credible boxer kickboxer/MT trainer disparage Silva, GSP, or Arlovski? Of course not. They are fine strikers. Quality striking is quality striking no matter forum.

[Dragonzbane76]

It changes the dynamics of a fight but it does not change the fundamentals of sound striking and striking defense. Boxing and kickboxing strategies can and do account for grappling. Grapplers are here just trying to justify slop.

I agree to some extent. There are those that are sloppy in there stand up. I don't think anyones trying to justify slop. Just trying to point out that adding different levels of fighting changes a fighter dynamically. They have to account for different timing, level changing, stance, etc. These MIGHT and MIGHT not change the game. Dependent upon person.


Boxing and kickboxing strategies can and do account for grappling.

really? last time i checked a boxer didn't really have that great of a ground game and defense against the shot.

[m1k3]

The hands look sloppy because they are. I would do some investigating before you go buying into what a few grapplers who think that they mmaists who come to a kung fu forum to talk smack after being called out on other mma forums.

What are you talking about? Grappling does change the way you do things. Look at the old Gracie Challange vids. You see a lot of TMA guys have problems because they weren't ready to deal with grappling. 10 years later you probably wouldn't have as much of an issue because instructors realise that grappling is now part of the landscape.

I don't mean just BJJ either, even though there are a fair number of people who train that, but wrestlers who now realize that their sport is also a martial art and people who have served in the militare as both the Army and Marines now train grappling as a major part of their H2H program.

[m1k3]

Maybe some of the striking is slop simply because as a grappler I am only interested in using my striking as a bridge to get the game to the ground. Just like there are stikers whose ground game doesn't look that good because they prefer to strike and only train enough grappling to keep the fight standing and to escape and stand up when taken down.

[sanjuro_ronin]

That was my point for starting the thread. Some people think that the only skilled fighters have to train MMA. Does that mean MMA fighters can beat any other MA or street fighter simply because they do MMA? Of course not. In real fights there are too many X factors. The whole story isn't told here but here's an example of S**t can happen in the streets. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uL3s41Sbubo
I have nothing against MMA. Those guys are in better shape and can take more punishment that the average TMA.
Now I know that skilled fighter should have a better chance in a fight but I've always believed that any fighter can have his ass handed to him on any given day.
No man, Grandmaster, MMA fighter, boxer. or whatever is invincible.
Also, do all skilled fighters have to be formally trained in MMA, TMA, boxing, MT or whatever?
There are some skilled street fighters out there with no "formal" training who gained skill in street fighting by street fighting. Yeah I know someone will say that they only fought unskilled fighters but some people's strength and attitude can overcome skill.

The best strikers in MMA are those that came for a solid cores striking system AND have modified their striking to work in MMA.
One of the best issue I have with MMA is that the striking taught in a typical MMA class is not doen the way it should be, ie: it is ALREADY MMA instead of becoming MMA.
Some can argue that it doesn't make that much of a difference but, so far, that doesn't seem to be the case.
The bets strikers are those that have a solid BACKGROUND in a solid striking system BEFORE they begin MMA.

[m1k3]

The best strikers in MMA are those that came for a solid cores striking system AND have modified their striking to work in MMA.
One of the best issue I have with MMA is that the striking taught in a typical MMA class is not doen the way it should be, ie: it is ALREADY MMA instead of becoming MMA.
Some can argue that it doesn't make that much of a difference but, so far, that doesn't seem to be the case.
The bets strikers are those that have a solid BACKGROUND in a solid striking system BEFORE they begin MMA.

Good post, I think that this logic applies to grappling also and it just makes sense.

[SAAMAG]

I think that what he's (humblewc) saying is that while grappling and the clinch change the dynamics (strategy and tactics) with regards to strikes, it doesn't promote or create sloppy technique.

Hence the reason why there are MMA guys who never punch sloppy and have good technique, timing, and so forth.

But **** good replies by Sanjuro and M1k3. I'm definitely of the latter group that is primarily a striker with enough ground skills to survive and maybe pop off a couple subs here and there. Goal is to stand back up though or get back into a dominant position to strike on the ground.

[HumbleWCGuy]

What are you talking about? Grappling does change the way you do things. Look at the old Gracie Challange vids. You see a lot of TMA guys have problems because they weren't ready to deal with grappling. 10 years later you probably wouldn't have as much of an issue because instructors realise that grappling is now part of the landscape.

I don't mean just BJJ either, even though there are a fair number of people who train that, but wrestlers who now realize that their sport is also a martial art and people who have served in the militare as both the Army and Marines now train grappling as a major part of their H2H program.

I have said this several time already but it is worth saying again. The "modifications" in boxing and kickboxing/MT to account for grappling are not so significant that boxers and kickboxers/MTs can't recognize whether their own arts are being practiced properly. All of those arts contain the necessary strategies to deal with grapplers, and kickboxing/MT uses some of the punching modifications.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Maybe some of the striking is slop simply because as a grappler I am only interested in using my striking as a bridge to get the game to the ground. Just like there are stikers whose ground game doesn't look that good because they prefer to strike and only train enough grappling to keep the fight standing and to escape and stand up when taken down.

On that level, you will get no argument from me. I just felt the need to shoot down the notion that mma striking was so specialized that boxing and kickboxing/MT could not comment on the use of their own arts.

[HumbleWCGuy]

I think that what he's (humblewc) saying is that while grappling and the clinch change the dynamics (strategy and tactics) with regards to strikes, it doesn't promote or create sloppy technique.

Hence the reason why there are MMA guys who never punch sloppy and have good technique, timing, and so forth.

But **** good replies by Sanjuro and M1k3. I'm definitely of the latter group that is primarily a striker with enough ground skills to survive and maybe pop off a couple subs here and there. Goal is to stand back up though or get back into a dominant position to strike on the ground.

Well put sir.

[Dragonzbane76]

I have said this several time already but it is worth saying again. The "modifications" in boxing and kickboxing/MT to account for grappling are not so significant that boxers and kickboxers/MTs can't recognize whether their own arts are being practiced properly. All of those arts contain the necessary strategies to deal with grapplers, and kickboxing/MT uses some of the punching modifications.

ah i see what your saying now. think i misunderstood you to begin with about MT/boxers having a ground game. you were talking about the ability to deal with pressure from ground fighters from take down not having the ability to grapple. mix up of wording there.

But yeah I would say that there is the ability in the styles, but some are more limited than others for the defense.

[HumbleWCGuy]

ah i see what your saying now. think i misunderstood you to begin with about MT/boxers having a ground game. you were talking about the ability to deal with pressure from ground fighters from take down not having the ability to grapple. mix up of wording there.

But yeah I would say that there is the ability in the styles, but some are more limited than others for the defense.

Exactly... Upright fighting is about managing distances as much as anything. Boxing doesn't have anti/grappling techniques per say but I can insert pressure fighting and counter punching strategies into an mmaists game with no real adjustment. If you tell your upright coach, "I want to stay on the outside," "I want to get in close," or "I want to counter fight," he can establish a strategy for you that will work.


Boxing coaches have a bigger adjustment because pure boxing is incomplete and mistake riddled by mma and kickboxng standards but if you are in a school that does kickboxing with standing grappling there is really no adjustment to make.

Also, no doubt Phil's boxers understand striking for mma as Phil trains at least one if not both of them.

[sihing]

ah i see what your saying now. think i misunderstood you to begin with about MT/boxers having a ground game. you were talking about the ability to deal with pressure from ground fighters from take down not having the ability to grapple. mix up of wording there.

But yeah I would say that there is the ability in the styles, but some are more limited than others for the defense.

Most of it has to do with your exposure to the threat. If your a MT guy, or boxer (any striker), and you do not deal with wrestlers and their takedowns, you will not be able to handle it in the beginning. I was watching some of Bas Rutten's old fights, with him commentating, and even admitted that in the beginning he had no idea of how to deal with the takedown and that it frustrated him alot. He still won alot of those fights in the ring. Now he says things would be alot different because his knowledge is better, and his experience too. So the key thing is, whatever threat you are concerned with, whether it dealing with a boxer or kicker or grappler, you need to expose yourself to that threat and see what your art provides for an answer. What I like about Wing Chun is that is teaches us to square up more in our striking (not to over reach or stretch out our blows), and from what I understand that is a good thing when having to deal with takedowns and preventing them. Plus it teaches us to keep our elbows low and in, which helps prevent guys from coming up and under when we strike.

James

[sanjuro_ronin]

So the key thing is, whatever threat you are concerned with, whether it dealing with a boxer or kicker or grappler, you need to expose yourself to that threat and see what your art provides for an answer.

And there, ladies and gentlemen, is the reason that, since the beginning of time, people interested in MARTIAL arts have fought and trained in more than one MA.

[sihing]

And there, ladies and gentlemen, is the reason that, since the beginning of time, people interested in MARTIAL arts have fought and trained in more than one MA.

Well that brings up another question, does one "have" to train in another MA to be able to deal with it, or is it okay to "expose" yourself to their method and learn to deal with it within your own aresenal.

It depends on your needs and wants. Of course if your goal is to compete in MMA to a high level, or something similar, then of course you need to be training in all of the ranges/MA, since the other guys are as well, you have to keep up on everything to deal with them as they are becoming more and more proficient in striking/takedowns and ground work.

But if you goal is not to compete in MMA, then one doesn't really have to train in wrestling or BJJ (unless that is of interest to them for enjoyment), to be able to deal with them, since your chances of meeting a really good wrestler or BJJ guy on the street that is sober and sane is nil to none.

Exposing yourself to them, training and exchanging with them and reflecting upon it will probably be good enough to get yourself back to your feet. Just like a specialized ground grappler should expose himself to a striking system to be able to pull off his own game when the time comes, no difference.


Just a thought.

I like your previous posts Paul, regarding striking and that the good MMA strikers come from a core striking system and adapting it to MMA, I agree totally.


James

[sanjuro_ronin]

Well that brings up another question, does one "have" to train in another MA to be able to deal with it, or is it okay to "expose" yourself to their method and learn to deal with it within your own aresenal.

I think its a time issue, if you CAN train, do train, you will get far greater insight on the "enemy" by training with them then by just fighting them.
But if time is limited then testing on a regular basis with the best you can test with, than can be enough.
Know the enemy...


I like your previous posts Paul, regarding striking and that the good MMA strikers come from a core striking system and adapting it to MMA, I agree totally.


You're gonna make me blush :D

[sihing]

I think its a time issue, if you CAN train, do train, you will get far greater insight on the "enemy" by training with them then by just fighting them.
But if time is limited then testing on a regular basis with the best you can test with, than can be enough.
Know the enemy...



You're gonna make me blush :D

Well Paul, your one of the good guys on this forum, your level headed and you have ton's of experience all of us could learn from.

From what you have told us of your history, you travelled alot so therefore had to take what you could get, and in this situation it has benefited you alot. I know guys that have crossed trained, but when injuries and life takes over they eventually decided to focus on one method. I think their experiences in the other arts helped them along the way, and that experience, or at least the mistakes and triumphs they encountered can be passed along up to a point to anyone willing to listen and absorb what they have to say.

For me I just really enjoy the WC experience that I am having, but that wasn't always the case, for now it is, so that is the main reason why I continue to train in the way I am, but I continue to explore the best I can into what other methods are about, so in a way I am open minded enough to explore and investigate up to a point, without being fixed in my thinking that WC is the be all end all.


James

[sanjuro_ronin]

Well Paul, your one of the good guys on this forum, your level headed and you have ton's of experience all of us could learn from.

From what you have told us of your history, you travelled alot so therefore had to take what you could get, and in this situation it has benefited you alot. I know guys that have crossed trained, but when injuries and life takes over they eventually decided to focus on one method. I think their experiences in the other arts helped them along the way, and that experience, or at least the mistakes and triumphs they encountered can be passed along up to a point to anyone willing to listen and absorb what they have to say.

For me I just really enjoy the WC experience that I am having, but that wasn't always the case, for now it is, so that is the main reason why I continue to train in the way I am, but I continue to explore the best I can into what other methods are about, so in a way I am open minded enough to explore and investigate up to a point, without being fixed in my thinking that WC is the be all end all.


James

Thanks for the kind words.
I got a lot from my WC and still kept some of it but the truth is, it was not a perfect fit for me.
I am a Hung Kuen guy all the way it seems, but with my exposure to WC and SPM, I have a little something there when the bridge is "transversed".
;)

[t_niehoff]

Well that brings up another question, does one "have" to train in another MA to be able to deal with it, or is it okay to "expose" yourself to their method and learn to deal with it within your own aresenal.


How can you "expose" yourself to their method without training with them?

[sihing]

How can you "expose" yourself to their method without training with them?


Well that's what I mean, you exchange with them, spar with them, talk about things and go from there. If someone came to me and said I'd like to learn about what you guys are all about because he was curious about how to defend themselves against our method I would show him some stuff, spar with him and exchange info that way, so that at the least he has some more exposure to the type of pressure we give when we fight, maybe just maybe he might become interested in joining the class, if not then that's okay too.

The meaning behind my post was, you can learn about a MA method by what I said above, without signing up at the school they are in and talking formal classes, and going thru their complete curriculum. It's all about learning their basics, and how they would apply it and then sparring with them and seeing what happens.

Plus there is so much info on the net about the various systems you could get a basic idea of how the various MA apply their sh!t, but like I said this would do you little good if you are going to be consistently "competiting" against them in sporting events, this of course requires that you actually learn and go thru there curriculum from someone qualified to teach it.

Needs and wants right.

James

[Phil Redmond]

The best strikers in MMA are those that came for a solid cores striking system AND have modified their striking to work in MMA.
One of the best issue I have with MMA is that the striking taught in a typical MMA class is not doen the way it should be, ie: it is ALREADY MMA instead of becoming MMA.
Some can argue that it doesn't make that much of a difference but, so far, that doesn't seem to be the case.
The bets strikers are those that have a solid BACKGROUND in a solid striking system BEFORE they begin MMA.
That makes sense to me.

[RisingCrane]

Do you find it ironic that people criticize TCMA people for looking like kickboxers when they fight, and kickboxers trash MMA people for NOT looking like kickboxers when they fight?
Many of the strikes in Lama/Hap Gar are designed to keep the fight at long range, so they are naturally more open and the stance a little higher. At close range the style uses wrestling techniques as well as knees and elbows. All the things my sifu told me 20 years ago about why Hap Gar techniques are not the same as kickboxing are the same very good points you guys are making about MMA hands being different to boxing hands. The truth is that fighting is fighting. If the rules allowed groin kicking and throat attacks, then the stance would be toe in more and the clinch game would not be so open. Then it would look like TCMA. :D

[Frost]

No one has accounted for this fact. You keep saying that mma striking is so different from standard striking but the fact is that the best mma strikers all look good to boxers and kicboxers/MT trainers. Would a credible boxer kickboxer/MT trainer disparage Silva, GSP, or Arlovski? Of course not. They are fine strikers. Quality striking is quality striking no matter forum.

arlovski and gsp both got knocked out because they treated mma like boxing and not its own sport, gsp now only uses strikes to set up his wrestling

[t_niehoff]

Well that's what I mean, you exchange with them, spar with them, talk about things and go from there.


This IS training with them.



If someone came to me and said I'd like to learn about what you guys are all about because he was curious about how to defend themselves against our method I would show him some stuff, spar with him and exchange info that way, so that at the least he has some more exposure to the type of pressure we give when we fight, maybe just maybe he might become interested in joining the class, if not then that's okay too.

The meaning behind my post was, you can learn about a MA method by what I said above, without signing up at the school they are in and talking formal classes, and going thru their complete curriculum. It's all about learning their basics, and how they would apply it and then sparring with them and seeing what happens.


I agree that you may not need to go through their whole curriculum but that is different than training with them. You should have said that you don't need to go and learn their whole curriculum.



Plus there is so much info on the net about the various systems you could get a basic idea of how the various MA apply their sh!t, but like I said this would do you little good if you are going to be consistently "competiting" against them in sporting events, this of course requires that you actually learn and go thru there curriculum from someone qualified to teach it.

Needs and wants right.

James

You might get the "idea" from watching videos, but that won't give you the training.

[Frost]

The best strikers in MMA are those that came for a solid cores striking system AND have modified their striking to work in MMA.
One of the best issue I have with MMA is that the striking taught in a typical MMA class is not doen the way it should be, ie: it is ALREADY MMA instead of becoming MMA.
Some can argue that it doesn't make that much of a difference but, so far, that doesn't seem to be the case.
The bets strikers are those that have a solid BACKGROUND in a solid striking system BEFORE they begin MMA.

this is true at the moment but it may change in the future. just as the best grapplers come from a grappling enviroment and have adapted it to the MMA arena.

MMA has not yet developed its own striking system yet, just as it has not yet developed its own grappling system. But as kids grow up and all they know is MMA and don't have a thai/boxing or wrestling background this might change

[t_niehoff]

Do you find it ironic that people criticize TCMA people for looking like kickboxers when they fight, and kickboxers trash MMA people for NOT looking like kickboxers when they fight?


Fighting can involve three "ranges", stand-up or free-movement, clinch, or ground - or some combo of them.

When you fight and "allow" all ranges, it will look like MMA. It doesn't matter what your style, art, etc. it will look like MMA since MMA is fighting at all ranges.

If you take away the ground, and only allow stand-up and clinch, fighting will look like muay thai or dirty-boxing since muay thai and dirty boxing is fighting at stand-up and clinch.

If you take away clinch and only allow stand-up, fighting will look like kickboxing since kickboxing is fighting at stand-up/free-movement. If you only allow punching (and take away kicks) fighting will look like boxing since boxing is fighting at stand-up/free-movement when kicks aren't allowed.

[goju]

arlovski and gsp both got knocked out because they treated mma like boxing and not its own sport, gsp now only uses strikes to set up his wrestling

oh this is a load of crap if there ever was one


and guess what? theyve beat plenty of people with their way of striking too

i havent see andre's fight with rogers but he lost to fedor because he tried a flying knee

now i dont know about any of you but ive never seena flying knee in boxing:D

[HumbleWCGuy]

arlovski and gsp both got knocked out because they treated mma like boxing and not its own sport, gsp now only uses strikes to set up his wrestling

They don't have good chins.

[Frost]

oh this is a load of crap if there ever was one


and guess what? theyve beat plenty of people with their way of striking too

i havent see andre's fight with rogers but he lost to fedor because he tried a flying knee

now i dont know about any of you but ive never seena flying knee in boxing:D

watch the rogers fight, and yes he did treat it like a boxing game against fedor in that he forgt about the nice big overhand right, he also forgot about the clinch an takedowns, he fell in love with boxing and wanted to make it a boxing match, he should have trusted his grappling more.

[Frost]

They don't have good chins.

its hard to have a good chin when the opponent is wearing 4oz gloves that land in ways a boxing glove can't, just ask melvin meianoff/ great thai fighter from holand, was owning robbie lawler all ends up, forgot it was not thai and started throwing punches and low kicks in combinations and as a result was in the pocket way to long and opened himself up to a overhand right which would have never landed in a thai match

[goju]

watch the rogers fight, and yes he did treat it like a boxing game against fedor in that he forgt about the nice big overhand right, he also forgot about the clinch an takedowns, he fell in love with boxing and wanted to make it a boxing match, he should have trusted his grappling more.

uh no... you cant claim he treated it like a boxing game when what did him in was a flying knee attempt :D

[HumbleWCGuy]

its hard to have a good chin when the opponent is wearing 4oz gloves that land in ways a boxing glove can't, just ask melvin meianoff/ great thai fighter from holand, was owning robbie lawler all ends up, forgot it was not thai and started throwing punches and low kicks in combinations and as a result was in the pocket way to long and opened himself up to a overhand right which would have never landed in a thai match

Don't you think that someone with nearly 80 professional fights has a chin issue? Why do you think that these guys switch to mma? It isn't just for money. They lose a "step" in their sport of choice and than go to mma.

[HumbleWCGuy]

You can only make the argument that, "He treated it like a boxing/kickboxing match and therefore lost," If the loss is due to something other than strikes. In striking sports better fighters lose here and there because they get hit with big shots. This is getting absolutely ridiculous.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Boxing and MMA gloves are nearly identical in force delivery for the same strikes. However, I can tell you with absolute certainty that people actually will hit harder with thicker gloves because they will attempt riskier strikes because of the hand protection. Not only will strikes be riskier, but people will hit with strikes that you can't use with mma gloves and bare knuckles. In fights, Bare knuckles, the punches least hard as people want to protect their hands.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T14JMqi4qr8

The key here is that the striking surfaces have nearly the same amount of padding. Boxing gloves have a lot of meaningless padding in them. In addition, the foam in mma gloves is different, harder, distributing the force more which make them more similar to boxing gloves.

[t_niehoff]

Boxing and MMA gloves are nearly identical in force delivery for the same strikes. However, I can tell you with absolute certainty that people actually will hit harder with thicker gloves because they will attempt riskier strikes because of the hand protection. Not only will strikes be riskier, but people will hit with strikes that you can't use with mma gloves and bare knuckles. In fights, Bare knuckles, the punches least hard as people want to protect their hands.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T14JMqi4qr8


Your own cited video refutes your "people hit harder with thicker gloves" nonsense. The numbers cited show just the opposite.

Your notion of "riskier strikes" is more nonsense. A jab is a jab, a cross is a cross, a hook is a hook, etc. And, the last thing anyone is thinking about when fighting - even bareknuckle - is protecting their hand.



The key here is that the striking surfaces have nearly the same amount of padding. Boxing gloves have a lot of meaningless padding in them. In addition, the foam in mma gloves is different, harder, distributing the force more which make them more similar to boxing gloves.

You have no idea what you are talking about.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Your own cited video refutes your "people hit harder with thicker gloves" nonsense. The numbers cited show just the opposite.

Your notion of "riskier strikes" is more nonsense. A jab is a jab, a cross is a cross, a hook is a hook, etc. And, the last thing anyone is thinking about when fighting - even bareknuckle - is protecting their hand.



You have no idea what you are talking about.
I can tell you how to find out if I am full of it. Go and it a bag until you get a dull ache in or hands that you are sure will never go away and then get back with me. Use bare knuckles, mma gloves, and boxing gloves. Focus on maximum power with each. I would recommend that you spar people with each but I am sure that this would never happen.

[anerlich]

Quality does vary, but just looking at UFC 110 Velasquez and Sotiropoulos were both pretty tidy boxers. Even Bisping looked OK, tidier than Silva IMO - though Bisping lost, which I guess says something on the topic as well. Jardine wasn't all that bad either (though he lost too, to a wilder brawler, and the KO blow was set up by a flying knee).

The need to defend takedowns requires modification to structure, stances and approach. If you move and plant exactly like a boxer, you give the other guy opportunities for takedowns.

As Frost implied, MMA is different in requirements to both kickboxing and straight sub grappling. It's more than just doing one and adding bits of the other. It's still a new sport and its strategy and tactics wll become increasingly sophisticated.


They don't have good chins.

A good chin doesn't have a lot to do with technical boxing, the subject of the thread.

In UFC 110 only Jardine and Noguiera were real KO's. The rest were TKO's, mostly cuts, one submission and the decisions.

[HumbleWCGuy]

A good chin doesn't have a lot to do with technical boxing, the subject of the thread.

.

People are asking why technical proficiency gets beaten at times. That is one of the big reasons. Several guys who have great technical upright, have poor chins.

[goju]

diego sanchez vs guida was another great example of linear striking vs loopier punches
:D

[Frost]

Boxing and MMA gloves are nearly identical in force delivery for the same strikes. However, I can tell you with absolute certainty that people actually will hit harder with thicker gloves because they will attempt riskier strikes because of the hand protection. Not only will strikes be riskier, but people will hit with strikes that you can't use with mma gloves and bare knuckles. In fights, Bare knuckles, the punches least hard as people want to protect their hands.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T14JMqi4qr8

The key here is that the striking surfaces have nearly the same amount of padding. Boxing gloves have a lot of meaningless padding in them. In addition, the foam in mma gloves is different, harder, distributing the force more which make them more similar to boxing gloves.

Sorry but this is wrong. Go to any pro MMA gym and you will see they spar with the bigger gloves, the 12, 14 or 16oz ones; they do not use the small MMA gloves for a reason, getting hit with them hurts alot more than getting hit with the boxing gloves. MMA gloves offer just enough protection to allow you to hit hard, but not so much that you can't feel the knuckles when your opponent hits you, it’s this bone on bone contact that results in so many one punch knock outs, you see more 1 punch ko's in MMA than you do in boxing precisely because of the small gloves and small padding, thus you have to change your strategy accordingly.

The other side of the equation is that smaller gloves make it much harder to defend punches, in boxing simply remembering to keep your back hand on your cheek, both hands up and simply shelling with the gloves covers alot of the areas that are at risk of knocking you out, in MMA these same defences can be easily slipped through by small gloves

[Frost]

People are asking why technical proficiency gets beaten at times. That is one of the big reasons. Several guys who have great technical upright, have poor chins.

it not just having bad chins, MMA gloves allow you to almost hit bone on bone: on the temple, behind the ear etc, in places the bigger boxing gloves won't allow you to hit. this is another reason why the swinging punches work in MMA more than they doin boxing, and why people get knocked out much more with one punch than they do in boxing, its not just because of weak chins, its the nature of the targets the small gloves allow you to hit

[Ludeviews]

I can tell you how to find out if I am full of it. Go and it a bag until you get a dull ache in or hands that you are sure will never go away and then get back with me. Use bare knuckles, mma gloves, and boxing gloves. Focus on maximum power with each. I would recommend that you spar people with each but I am sure that this would never happen.

Simple question to answer this... would you rather be hit by a guy wearing 4oz gloves or 16oz gloves?

If you've been hit with both then its an easy answer.


it not just having bad chins, MMA gloves allow you to almost hit bone on bone: on the temple, behind the ear etc, in places the bigger boxing gloves won't allow you to hit. this is another reason why the swinging punches work in MMA more than they doin boxing, and why people get knocked out much more with one punch than they do in boxing, its not just because of weak chins, its the nature of the targets the small gloves allow you to hit

To add to the above...

Smaller Gloves = Smaller impact area... therefore more force per sq inch.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Simple question to answer this... would you rather be hit by a guy wearing 4oz gloves or 16oz gloves?

If you've been hit with both then its an easy answer.



To add to the above...

Smaller Gloves = Smaller impact area... therefore more force per sq inch.

First, 16 oz gloves aren't professional competition size gloves. The glove in the video was probably 12 to 14. Second, the total ounce weight of boxing gloves is determined in part by a lot of padding that is outside the striking surface.

In terms of just pure hitting, I will take boxing gloves, better tape job, and more guaze along with my greater striking repertoire. With boxing gloves one can tee off with impunity using using risky strikes, the same cannot be said for mma and bare knuckles.

[Ultimatewingchun]

In general I agree with Phil Redmond's original post on this thread that mma hands are usually sloppy...with some notable exceptions like Fedor, Machida, Liddell, Cro Cop, etc.

But an underlying issue is the fact that what a pro boxer might have to say about the lack of skills in mma striking has to be taken with several (and one particular) grain of salt:

there is no kicking, clinching, striking in the clinch, knees, elbows, and takedowns allowed in boxing.

And it's especially the takedowns that require major adjustments when using striking hands (ie.- boxing, wing chun, whatever...) in an mma setting.

The whole striking game changes when clinch fighting and especially takedowns are allowed.

And boxing has to take this into account - regardless of how good the boxing skills.

In an alley....how much stick-and-move, use the jab and back away Ali-type boxing would really work? Incredible "boxer"...Muhammad Ali was (for example)....but he even remarked once that if he had to fght Chuck Wepner in an alley - he'd bring his blade!

[Dragonzbane76]

In terms of just pure hitting, I will take boxing gloves, better tape job, and more guaze along with my greater striking repertoire. With boxing gloves one can tee off with impunity using using risky strikes, the same cannot be said for mma and bare knuckles.

i can't see why MMa/BK can't be risky, as you state? actually I think they have more risks involved than boxing, at least for knockouts, or the potential for knockout. Smaller gloves=harder hits. Dont' know if you've taken a shot from those 4oz gloves or not but they do not feel very good. impunity=most of the guys i've seen swinging for the fences in mma charge in like a bull. :)

[HumbleWCGuy]

i can't see why MMa/BK can't be risky, as you state? actually I think they have more risks involved than boxing, at least for knockouts, or the potential for knockout. Smaller gloves=harder hits. Dont' know if you've taken a shot from those 4oz gloves or not but they do not feel very good. impunity=most of the guys i've seen swinging for the fences in mma charge in like a bull. :)

I was figuring it up the other day. I have about 150 hours of sparring with a flimsy predecessor to the mma glove. If you are going to be a full-contact minded WC school, what else was their to use? MMa gloves make the shots hurt more but the KO art of it is probably less IMO. When I switched to boxing gloves full time, I learned to hit differently because I did not have to worry about hurting my hands.

[Dragonzbane76]

i agree that there are plus factors to boxing gloves. Do you remember the old gloves bruce lee kinda made famous? i'm wanting to say kendo gloves not sure on that, but anyways, i used to use those they had a lot of padding but you could grasp with them and could do throws and grappling type stuff in them. hum.. wonder if i could still buy a pair of those today?
Anyways, i see your point about the injury factor totally.

[Ludeviews]

First, 16 oz gloves aren't professional competition size gloves. The glove in the video was probably 12 to 14. Second, the total ounce weight of boxing gloves is determined in part by a lot of padding that is outside the striking surface.


I don't think you got my question... I simply asked what you would prefer to be hit by... 16oz or 4oz?

I'll take 16's all day (and I often do!)



In terms of just pure hitting, I will take boxing gloves, better tape job, and more guaze along with my greater striking repertoire. With boxing gloves one can tee off with impunity using using risky strikes, the same cannot be said for mma and bare knuckles.

Just because you think you hit harder with boxing gloves doesn't mean everyone does.

The video you posted showed Bas (who needs no introduction) hit harder in terms of total force with MMA gloves than boxing gloves in a controlled scientific environment.



wonder if i could still buy a pair of those today?

I believe you're looking for Kenpo Gloves

[Ludeviews]

there is no kicking, clinching, striking in the clinch, knees, elbows, and takedowns allowed in boxing.


In addition to the adjustments you and others mentioned that are required for MMA, there's just more to practise...

its no wonder boxers are more skilled at boxing. They only practise boxing all day long.

There's only 24 hours in a day for training... they have to make compromises!! More time spent on striking... less time spent on grappling. Its all balance.

[Dragonzbane76]

I believe you're looking for Kenpo Gloves
ah you might be right i knew it was something with a k in it. :)

[HumbleWCGuy]

i agree that there are plus factors to boxing gloves. Do you remember the old gloves bruce lee kinda made famous? i'm wanting to say kendo gloves not sure on that, but anyways, i used to use those they had a lot of padding but you could grasp with them and could do throws and grappling type stuff in them. hum.. wonder if i could still buy a pair of those today?
Anyways, i see your point about the injury factor totally.

Actually, believe it or not, we were using some gloves that were primarily for points sparring. They were not the foam dipped gloves. Kempo gloves would have been quite heavy in comparison. I pulled a pair out of the closet. The were called cobras and they were made by a company called Kim Pacific Corp. It looks like they don't make the glove that I am talking about anymore. The padding in the was a little thicker and not quite as firm. I felt the knuckles a bit more in the old gloves.

Here is the link to that company, Kim Pacific Corp.
http://www.kimpacific.com/sparring-gear-sets.html

Here are the "Bruce Lee" gloves.
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31OYajE22FL._AA280_.jpg

Edit:
I found the gloves that we used to use back in the old days
http://www.amazon.com/Cobra-Chop-Vinyl-Red-Child/dp/B000N1C4ZK/ref=sr_1_16?ie=UTF8&m=A3K2APUOYFZD7U&s=sporting-goods&qid=1266906574&sr=1-16

[Frost]

I was figuring it up the other day. I have about 150 hours of sparring with a flimsy predecessor to the mma glove. If you are going to be a full-contact minded WC school, what else was their to use? MMa gloves make the shots hurt more but the KO art of it is probably less IMO. When I switched to boxing gloves full time, I learned to hit differently because I did not have to worry about hurting my hands.

actually although there are more actual knockouts in boxing than MMA you see more one punch knock outs in MMA than you do in boxing, the gloves play a big part in this, not only there 4oz part but the fact they are so small, i took have used the old semi contact foam pads and i can see why you felt hitting with the boxing gloves increased your power because of the reduced risk of injury, but the modern MMA gloves over almost as much protection as the boxing gloves so you can hit really hard with them

[HumbleWCGuy]

actually although there are more actual knockouts in boxing than MMA you see more one punch knock outs in MMA than you do in boxing, the gloves play a big part in this, not only there 4oz part but the fact they are so small, i took have used the old semi contact foam pads and i can see why you felt hitting with the boxing gloves increased your power because of the reduced risk of injury, but the modern MMA gloves over almost as much protection as the boxing gloves so you can hit really hard with them

It seems like you are starting to agree with me that hand protection makes you punch harder. I am surprised that you won't take the next step.

On mma K.O.s versus boxing, MMA has larger weight classes, greater age ranges of fighters, and greater skill disparities within the given fighting ranges. It is not surprising that there are more "one punch" K.O.s.

I keep saying this and nobody has even noticed, but the real difference between boxers/kickboxers and mma-strikers in general is their defense. MMA strikers are not as precise or careful to hone their defense. Certainly, there are boxing defensive methods that don't work in mma but there is plenty that does. I think that too much is being made of the gloves and the striking mechanics, and bad defense is being ignored. I would be shocked if Phil's boxing buddies would not comment on poor defense within the mma structure as much as anything.

[Frost]

It seems like you are starting to agree with me that hand protection makes you punch harder. I am surprised that you won't take the next step.

On mma K.O.s versus boxing, MMA has larger weight classes, greater age ranges of fighters, and greater skill disparities within the given fighting ranges. It is not surprising that their are more "one punch" K.O.s.

I keep saying this and nobody has even noticed, but the real difference between boxers/kickboxers and mma-strikers in general is their defense. MMA strikers are not as precise or careful to hone their defense. Certainly, there are boxing defensive methods that don't work in mma but there is plenty that does. I think that too much is being made of the gloves and the striking mechanics, and bad defense is being ignored. I would be shocked if Phil's boxing buddies would not comment on poor defense within the mma structure as much as anything.

I don't think we ever disagreed on the fact that gloves allow you to hit harder than bare hand, you actually see the number of KO's increase in MMA when they introduced gloves, i simply argue that the size of the MMA gloves: there relative small size and small padding acounts for a lot of the 1 punch knock outs, and contributes to the what phil clled bad standup we see.

They do hone there defence the difference is the smaller glove can get through vurtually any defence: shelling, high guards, hands on the cheek, turning the palm outwards, all of which you see in boxing simply do not work in MMA, the small gloves simply slip through the gaps that are not there with 12 oz boxing gloves. Slipping can work, as can bobing and weaving, the problem is these do not work well that well if the clinch/takedowns/knees are allowed.

the end result is that fighters spend less time in the pocket striking and more time moving in and out, or on the floor knocked out. this is magnified by the fact there are no standing counts in MMA and no three knockdown rule, if you get clipped and hurt you go down and get pounded/submitted or the ref steps in. this again makes MMA fighters much less willing to stand in the pocket and trade.

[HumbleWCGuy]

I don't think we ever disagreed on the fact that gloves allow you to hit harder than bare hand, you actually see the number of KO's increase in MMA when they introduced gloves, i simply argue that the size of the MMA gloves: there relative small size and small padding acounts for a lot of the 1 punch knock outs, and contributes to the what phil clled bad standup we see.

They do hone there defence the difference is the smaller glove can get through vurtually any defence: shelling, high guards, hands on the cheek, turning the palm outwards, all of which you see in boxing simply do not work in MMA, the small gloves simply slip through the gaps that are not there with 12 oz boxing gloves. Slipping can work, as can bobing and weaving, the problem is these do not work well that well if the clinch/takedowns/knees are allowed.

the end result is that fighters spend less time in the pocket striking and more time moving in and out, or on the floor knocked out. this is magnified by the fact there are no standing counts in MMA and no three knockdown rule, if you get clipped and hurt you go down and get pounded/submitted or the ref steps in. this again makes MMA fighters much less willing to stand in the pocket and trade.
1. Trading is not a sign of refined boxing.
2. Boxers rarely trade. MT fighters will trade which is why I only sort of like it.
3. Boxing has hit and run strategies so no boxer would look at an mma fighter and call a fighters hitting and running sloppy.
4. mma fighters generally lack proper footwork and set themselves up for all manner of mayhem.
5. There are so many problems with mma strikers that it would be hard to pin it on just gloves getting through smaller openings. There is too much legitimate sloppiness.
5. MMa is full

[sanjuro_ronin]

its no wonder boxers are more skilled at boxing. They only practise boxing all day long.

End of discussion, time to close the thread, common sense has arrived.

[Phil Redmond]

its no wonder boxers are more skilled at boxing. They only practise boxing all day long.
End of discussion, time to close the thread, common sense has arrived.
Wow, a thread with a logical ending? Go figure.

[Ludeviews]

its no wonder boxers are more skilled at boxing. They only practise boxing all day long.
Wow, a thread with a logical ending? Go figure.

Did I pass the test?

[Phil Redmond]

End of discussion, time to close the thread, common sense has arrived.


Did I pass the test?
With flying colors. :D You simplified what should have been obvious, to me a least.