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k gledhill
02-21-2010, 07:31 AM
There are certain drills we use to focus the students on their elbows and not wrists

keep the idea of having every action an attacking action, and that we don't fight like chi-sao with 2 hands equally extended....one leads one follows...cycles of attacking actions..strikes with dual simultaneous ability to block/strike as they move back and forth cycling along the centerlines, as you angle and shift flowing with the opponent ...

developing striking actions without body angling/ movement , then lok sao 2 arms in unison , no body movement ...that comes later in chi-sao seung ma toi ma attacking facing drills & bong /jut drills...

Dan chi-sao , the tan elbow spreads off the line as it hits 'versus' the jum sao elbow stays in as it hits, but done in 2 stages to develop preliminary positions to strike from later in 1 flowing strike.
Mistakes to avoid, using the wrists to move downwards , sideways, or trying to stick with the movements using wrists, etc...iow isolate the arms to point along your own centerlines while using the elbows movements to cover entry to or displace from your centerlines....

By facing squarely we use each others 'facing' to make each other square on, just for the drills and alignment purposes...this makes each arm able to reach the target as we are at angles ...as dummy side facing using tan & jum ...either strike/energy will reach as we face from angles, trying to isolate one 1/2 of the opponent by turning or using their natural turning actions...

We also add the bong sao action for recovering the bridged arm...iow whenever an arm covers [not touches] entry to the target, we use it to displace the arm with sharp left or right energy to our lines , opening up the path for the rear hand , wu sao.... then drop the bong elbow as recovery to strike again with elbow in ...same idea as SLT.
Once the partner strikes over the bong sao, he practices withdrawing his arm back to neutral fok sao ...as a strike that recoils back to strike , the elbow remains relaxed but central , neutral. iow we train to recover the arm after its lifted , as this happens the partner doing bong sao remains in bong , NOT rolling and following the fok sao, this will develop a rolling sticking idea....bad:D

so the dan chi sao is in cycles of strike versus strike tan v jum and recovery of the tans extended strike as the jum remains aimed and in contraction, this stops the drill from making you roll and stick with the tan as it goes back to prepare for bong sao.

so you can see that there are parts of the drill aimed at STOPPING the student from feeling to follow etc...instead we aim strike recover elbows then start another section.

Seen from outside it LOOKS like sticking flowing rolling but then the ideas arent being shared to understand the stop and start sections... the energy developed will later be combined into single striking actions using the 2 stages in 1 striking flowing action....

Some simple ways to show this 2 stage development is to have a student hold their arm off to the side outside their shoulders and the as the coach strikes to their centers [ for drilling purposes] they bring their elbows inwards and attempt to intercept the line of the strike, using the elbow to the centerline , not the wrists.
If the wrists are being used, we can feint the strike to show the wrist traveling past the centerline....another method of showing this idea is to have them slap their own hand off the line ....using the elbow as the focus like all the drills....

moving to double hands rolling and then striking tan v jum without doing the 2 stage stop and hit actions.....strike versus strikes tan v jum strikes , each trying to displace the other ...in one beat, stalemating to develop the strikes along the line ....opening up arms to develop striking into gaps of available space, not sticking etc....

the by-product of alignment training gives the students the feel for incorrect alignment , relative to their own striking lines ....any use of wrists that deviates from the centerlines can be felt instantly, ...maintaining the idea that we dont use 2 arms extended , will show that any deviation felt from the lead arm will be taken advantage of by the following rear hands....if the hands are free , iow nothing in the way they simply hit....

sticking and rolling is a common mistake , it wont develop striking ability required to make the strikes function alone, iow you wont have to use 2 hands to fight one isolated arm always..over trapping or over sticking to control ,compensating for lack of proper alignment drills early on in ones training...

The SLT starts with two hands striking equally along the centerline x at the wrists outwards then back to X wu sao's ...we strike equally facing from each arm....then develop the starting points from which to strike from...tan elbow in , jum elbow in....huen & wu as it travels back to recover the xing strike line, making a natural intercepting angle as it starts to move forwards again along the line....each arm equall...Chum Kil will give us the angles and movement to work the SLT...a fighting bubble SLT and CK ...BG gives recovery to losing the bubble idea....

:D

uki
02-21-2010, 10:16 AM
i hear iron ball juggling is an excellent training method for developing strikes. :)

k gledhill
02-21-2010, 02:49 PM
i hear iron ball juggling is an excellent training method for developing strikes. :)

iron ball juggling eh ...tried it got good at juggling iron balls , strike no improve :D

sihing
02-21-2010, 03:30 PM
Good post Kev, and a good representation of the types of threads that should be more prevelent on this forum, you've explained your method and reasons why you do things the way you do, with logical thinking to back it up. Now, does it work? That cannot be answered in anyway by anyone outside of yourself. No one here can say to me that it does or doesn't work as you are not me and I am not you. It's an individual thing, and most do not understand it nor are willing to go thru it to develop the skills. I was not aware of this stuff until I felt it for myself, you can't understand it by reading about it, having it explained to you, or by seeing it on a vid. When you feel it you understand, and even then it still may not be for you, that is fine, but you will understand it alot better.

It's a training method, not a style or exact technique way of doing something. Like you always say, we don't fight with two hands forward like in chi sau but it is teaching us something that can be used in a variety of way in application.

It's all training.

James

uki
02-21-2010, 04:39 PM
It's all training.you can say that again. :D

k gledhill
02-21-2010, 04:44 PM
Agreed, its only a hands on thing...trying to explain it is hard work, but Im like Philipp and his mind set of being open to all with it...the systematic development of a free fighter using the VT drills to achieve a simple end.
Many as I did too, get involved with chi-sao as the 'way' to figure out what the forms are for. They fight/spar at the end of every class and cant get the connection facing head on with lead legs etc...you have a great lead leg chain punch attack :o pak sao works :D
But I found that I needed a way to free myself of over controlling uys when fighting, iow I was asking the questions that WSL gave to Philipp, t5ransfering strikes with other strikes utilizing the natural arm angles along the centerline, as they cycle one after the other using opposite sides of the arms to maintain defensive cover ..ie tan is your outside forearm using the elbow leaving the line to displace with sharp ballistic forces ....forward striking AND using muscle memory to recover the elbow line before the next strike, at high speeds.....same for the strike staying on the line or moving to the line from raised elbows as bong...manipulation of the forearms to the positions of the opponents arm actions is available ...as you thread the strikes in simultaneously using combintaions of facing and shifting relative to the action in real time...not sticking but seeking to strike like a two headed snake coiling into gaps as the opponents arms attempt to prevent its relentless entry ...it takes one or maybe 2 bite :D if it Terence 9-10 bites hahah! just kidding T.

just a btw but WSL was meant to have beaten most guys within 3 moves ! understanding his ideas you could see why. Genius. I could never have seen it if it wasnt shown to me. to dumb :D

t_niehoff
02-22-2010, 04:59 AM
There are certain drills we use to focus the students on their elbows and not wrists


The power of the punch -- like everything else -- comes from your body, not your elbow or wrist.

uki
02-22-2010, 05:26 AM
The power of the punch -- like everything else -- comes from your body, not your elbow or wrist.yet if your wrist and arms are out of harmony(weak) with your body, they'll collapse under the power transfer. :)

k gledhill
02-22-2010, 05:57 AM
The power of the punch -- like everything else -- comes from your body, not your elbow or wrist.

never mentioned power source... just strike development. The source is simple physics.
Whatever you drive into the ground has an equal and opposite force....short shuffling steps allow a constant unbroken line of force , whatever you channel that force into with strikes in cycling rotation coupled with quadriceps driving into the ground to attack ....add the turning facing force coupled with seung ma toi ma " point of impact " training to a precise point and we have KO ability ...been there done that, may have been 'scrubs' but I treated all results of fights as ' information' feedback from striking ...practical out of class experiences ;)
Keeping elbows in helps channel force of the body weight ,etc.... into the target.


The elbow alignment is for defensive ideas as we strike. naturally intercepting along an invisible line we create as we attack....like a traffic intersection you may crash you may not all depends on timing when you cross X ..only we dont worry because we have countermeasures to being stopped from crossing..we cross aggressively :D the intersection turns and we face to cross over ...

there are heavy bag routines with simple elbow strike regimens to re-enforce the ideas...the whole system is always re-enforcing the cycling attacking alone or in partnership strike/s

the dummy develops the 'shock' Ging force , displacement energy for transfering our energy stopped abruptly to another object that takes the energy and is moved, while we hold our lines and strike or recover elbows to strike from....not having 'chased' across our own line after a redundant action....feint etc...

cycling through not posing in kwan...kwan is not used against one arm, and we dont stand with two extended arms as chi-sao so it presents itself as redundant to turn away from a guy with kwan ...high low gausn sao is high jum strike low gaun sao...cycling to high tan strike , bong trained on the low arm fr displacement....not a pose :D not a 'move, but each arm individually cycling from attacking to defensive back to attacking , defensive again , while the other arm does the same ...only one is always attacking..

until you see the tan and jum as simple elbow pre-strike training , you will see the system as a bunch of moves ..not a flowing ability to deliver an unbroken attack...

conceptually we are trying to do this ...from day one , the system teaches techniques to deliver it....

low front kicks allow movement towards a taragte that has passed beyond hands....po pai to shove back into strike range, not just out the nearest window.....flowing attacking, like rushing water, attacking water.

t_niehoff
02-22-2010, 08:12 AM
never mentioned power source... just strike development. The source is simple physics.


You don't understand -- by body I am not talking about the torso but the whole person, including the arms. You can't isolate the parts. Just like you can't separate mechanicsfrom power from anything else. The WCK punch is the whole body working together to perform a certain task.



Whatever you drive into the ground has an equal and opposite force....short shuffling steps allow a constant unbroken line of force , whatever you channel that force into with strikes in cycling rotation coupled with quadriceps driving into the ground to attack ....add the turning facing force coupled with seung ma toi ma " point of impact " training to a precise point and we have KO ability ...been there done that, may have been 'scrubs' but I treated all results of fights as ' information' feedback from striking ...practical out of class experiences ;)
Keeping elbows in helps channel force of the body weight ,etc.... into the target.


You aren't KO'ing anyone with your WCK punches.

I've seen Bayer's videos and he is all arms and ONLY arms. One of the easiest ways to recognize poor WCK is the fast hands stuff -- since fast hands only come from localized muscle. It means you are not using your body. That won't do anything and will fall apartunder pressure.



The elbow alignment is for defensive ideas as we strike. naturally intercepting along an invisible line we create as we attack....like a traffic intersection you may crash you may not all depends on timing when you cross X ..only we dont worry because we have countermeasures to being stopped from crossing..we cross aggressively :D the intersection turns and we face to cross over ...


This is all nonsense. You're not goingto "intercept along an invisible line as you attack." People aren't going to be feeding you weak WCK punches that permit you to do these things.

SAAMAG
02-22-2010, 10:40 AM
Guys c'mon. This thread has a good potential for being a good WING CHUN thread. Uki, Terence, can we try not to have this one turn sour too?

If you want to contribute, how about talking about the things that YOU do develop striking as a whole? What are the actual drills you're doing? How often do you do it? That sort of stuff.

t_niehoff
02-22-2010, 11:00 AM
Guys c'mon. This thread has a good potential for being a good WING CHUN thread. Uki, Terence, can we try not to have this one turn sour too?

If you want to contribute, how about talking about the things that YOU do develop striking as a whole? What are the actual drills you're doing? How often do you do it? That sort of stuff.

OK.

I develop my striking just as boxers, muay thai, etc, does: by striking -- and I mean REALLY striking (with power). This is just another example of you develop a skill by doing that skill. For me, that involves a lot of pad work (hitting things), and then sparring (hitting things). I do pad work and sparring every time I train WCK.

You don't -- and can't -- develop your striking by not hitting things or by "hitting" them with little power.

In WCK people tend to segment things, like the hand/arm and the body. The segmentation, both in "concept" and in practice, only leads to poor results. Tan sao, for instance, isn't just what your arm is doing -- it is what your whole body is doing, as your whole body is involved in performing it. The kuit tells us that Siu Nim Tao Lien Yiu Sen Ma: Siu Nim Tao trains the waist, torso and horse. It doesn't say it is to learn the basic arm movements. The arm movements are just the extension of your waist, torso, and horse.

SAAMAG
02-22-2010, 11:34 AM
There are certain drills we use to focus the students on their elbows and not wrists

keep the idea of having every action an attacking action, and that we don't fight like chi-sao with 2 hands equally extended....one leads one follows...cycles of attacking actions..strikes with dual simultaneous ability to block/strike as they move back and forth cycling along the centerlines, as you angle and shift flowing with the opponent ...
Although Wing Chun as most know it favors being square on to allow for equal representation of each side; your description is the way I like doing it as well because it is more natural feeling for me and is more closely resembling the way I'd actually fight. You're using long bridge and short bridge as well I assume?

...

Well, to define my idea of "striking" development, I first define my idea of a proper strike. A proper strike requires (1) maximum power generation, (2) maxmimum speed, and (3) Proper timing

Power Generation

Definition: The development of kinetic force.

Correct body mechanics / joint alignment

Example: for the Kuen, making sure the punch is directed with the elbow, making sure that power flows from the ground through the heel, knee, hip, spine, shouler, elbow, and wrist.
Softness in delivery (relaxation)

Establishing the idea that when the muscles are relaxed in movement, that more speed can be developed and subsequently more power (to the limit of the mass being moved).


Speed

Definition: The time it takes for an object to move from point a to point b; and also the time it takes for the brain to respond to stimulus and command an action.

Mechanical speed

This is done simply through repitition with the already ingrained mechanical structure and relaxation.
Neural-response speed

This is achieved through stimulus drills that vary in nature like a beep, the initiation of a partners punch (they punch first you hit first)...etc.


Timing

Definition: Timing is proper application of the technique that maximizes the chance of success and allows for the strike to work at an even higher efficacy because the opponent's movement adds to the effectiveness of the impending strike.

Single step drills

For example a drill where the parter punches once and the student learns to stop-hit.
Multi step drills

Using the example above, where this occurs in 2-3-4-X steps.
Focus Mitts & Pad Hitting

It is important to note this is done while moving and using footwork, to ingrain distance and timing and the success is determined by how "square" the hit lands on the mitt or pad
Heavy Bag

If you're alone, heavy bag work can be used for this as well by simple having the bag swing (and keeping it swinging) in order to time when to hit it with maxium effect. Punching it as it swings away produces less power than if it is going towards the strike. Hitting bag in general also aids in developing power as it "corrects" the person on their mechanics if it is done wrong.
Sparring drills

Where sparring is done, but limits are placed on one or both individuals to work on a specific skillset.
Sparring drills

The epitomy of one's training IMO. This is where everything is put together, and where you learn through doing the proper application of striking using all its components.

JPinAZ
02-22-2010, 11:49 AM
IMO, you develop striking power in 'stages'. You can teach the student the whole body connectivity, and it should be a very important factor and end-goal for delivering the most powerful punch, but it surely isn't the only, or most efficient way to train it.
You also have to break it down by isolating the separate parts of the body - foot work/knee, hip alignment, wrist/elbow position along with or slightly prior-to using the whole body. Basically, you can't just say 'hit the bag with your whole body connected' and then they figure it all out. That's the long long road, and can lead to people becoming frustrated with their WC and looking to other stuff like MMA for answers, when they are right there in front of you ;)
Plus, without the isolation training, there is no way to fine tune what isn't working for them.

To teach someone how to punch, while punching with total-body connectivity is the end goal, you have to also focus on the separate parts. This is done with both solo work and bag work.
For the arm, you can drill from a stationary stance (YJKYM). You have to learn how to set proper elbow/wrist/striking point position to be able to maintain the strongest structural alignment each time (triangle theory). You focus on all 3 dimensions for each part - height, depth and width so your structure doesn't fall apart when you start using more energy or in application. Of course they won't get it on day one, but you have to start somewhere. And this is done solo and also with pad/bag work.

For the footwork, proper position of the toe/heel and knee hip alignment is important when they step, as well as when they land. There is also consideration of distance if stepping, and also alignment of the parts to target when landing. Again, this can be isolated without the hands both solo, and also with a target/person for alignment.

These separate training methods are then put together when striking with the whole body connectivity as the focus again. Both solo and with targets and ultimately in sparring (applying what you learned). This will teach them how to put their parts together and work as the whole body being one unit - Learning proper heaven/human and earth triangles and how they connect together.

Then, when something breaks down or further development is needed, you go back and focus on areas that need work then try again. Nothing is really linear in your learning, and it's all important. Sure, they should be working on striking with the whole body from the begining, both with targets and in sparring, but they also need to be able to do focused training to build the attributes and structures up properly. You have to learn to crawl before you walk, walk before you jog, etc.

Of course, I didn't even talk about how things like timing, breath and energy usage are trained or untilized. Mostly just on structure and mechanics, but it's all important as well. Your training is never done IMO and it is always a benifit to re-focus on the simplest of the basics.

SAAMAG
02-22-2010, 11:54 AM
IMO, you develop striking power in 'stages'. You can teach the student the whole body connectivity, and it should be a very important factor and end-goal for delivering the most powerful punch, but it surely isn't the only, or most efficient way to train it.
You also have to break it down by isolating the separate parts of the body - foot work/knee, hip alignment, wrist/elbow position along with or slightly prior-to using the whole body. Basically, you can't just say 'hit the bag with your whole body connected' and then they figure it all out. That's the long long road, and can lead to people becoming frustrated with their WC and looking to other stuff like MMA for answers, when they are right there in front of you ;)
Plus, without the isolation training, there is no way to fine tune what isn't working for them.
VERY good point and absolutely correct. Though it's not too hard to watch someone throw a punch and see where those errors lie, and then you can go about simply focusing on the connectivity pieces that aren't quite right.

k gledhill
02-22-2010, 03:29 PM
You don't understand -- by body I am not talking about the torso but the whole person, including the arms. You can't isolate the parts. Just like you can't separate mechanicsfrom power from anything else. The WCK punch is the whole body working together to perform a certain task.



You aren't KO'ing anyone with your WCK punches.

I've seen Bayer's videos and he is all arms and ONLY arms. One of the easiest ways to recognize poor WCK is the fast hands stuff -- since fast hands only come from localized muscle. It means you are not using your body. That won't do anything and will fall apartunder pressure.



This is all nonsense. You're not goingto "intercept along an invisible line as you attack." People aren't going to be feeding you weak WCK punches that permit you to do these things.

You cant even understand what Im talking about....

-木叶-
02-22-2010, 10:52 PM
Actually both gledhill and terence are correct, gledhill emphasizes on 发劲在膊 (Cyclic punches etc), whereas terence emphasizes on 力从地起 (Strength comes from the body)。

One very good way of developing the strikes is to hit on the wall bag, firm and slow with
each strike, (not the Yip Man movie ones).

YungChun
02-23-2010, 01:05 AM
The WCK punch is the whole body working together to perform a certain task.


Correct.



You aren't KO'ing anyone with your WCK punches.


:confused:



fast hands only come from localized muscle. It means you are not using your body. That won't do anything and will fall apartunder pressure.

Slightly off.

Actually really fast hands (speed) does come from the body.. If you only use localized muscle you will never get as much speed or power as when you are grounded and the body is powering the arms.. (sequential summation of motion) The fastest attacks with arms are powered by the body.. Of course it depends on what kinds of movements...

What you really mean here is that the arms must be synced with the body as a single unit in motion, action. So then no, the ultra high speed CPs we often see are not synced, not connected and will have very little power.

EDIT:

BTW T a good example of why and what folks need to be shown.. Many don't get this point... and need to be shown.....shown...!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So there goes your 'your teacher can't show you....' Students do need to be shown many a thing...

Wayfaring
02-23-2010, 03:45 AM
As another viewpoint in developing strikes, I wanted to highlight how boxers, MT boxers, and MMA fighters develop strikes. In this, I won't necessarily focus on the science and specific technique of the strikes, but in the training methods which are utilized to take the specific science and technique and train them to a high level that is effective in striking an opponent who is moving around and trying to strike you back in an alive fashion. If WCK boxers would train strikes with the same developmental model you see boxers, MT boxers, and MMA fighters they might see better results.

One interesting point about the training methodology here - you don't really see a whole lot of MMA fighters, boxers, or MT boxers growing frustrated with their striking skills as learned via this training method and turn to WCK. Yet apparently through other methods of training WCK striking that occurs with people leaving it and taking up MMA. This is worth reflecting on. The skills being learned and the method they are trained in MMA, MT, Boxing have ENOUGH BUILT-IN FEEDBACK that they don't have to wonder if they are increasing in ability, strength, power, agility, effective fighting skills. They actually know because they can measure it for themselves. One of the ways this feedback is obtained is through the consistent live application against skilled opponents.

MMA, MT, Boxing trains the development of fundamentals through pad work. Power is developed through hitting the heavy bag. This is done in conditioning rounds of typically 3 minutes long, with many rounds done in a session. The same with MT pads - combinations are trained in rounds striking the pads. This develops both the power in the strike as well as the stamina and endurance to strike with power for an extended period of time.

Footwork is developed through jumping rope - which develops agility and stamina for quick movement as well as many other drills to train movement. These also are trained in rounds or for a specified duration. This develops the agility and endurance to move with good footwork that will enable a fighter to maintain their structure in fast aggressive situations.

Striking a moving target is trained through focus pads as well as speed bags. Combinations are the starting point with focus pads, and then eventually a freestyle sparring session is reached complete with slipping and ducking movements. This trains the skill of hitting a target in a moving alive environment.

A boxer in training will do something similar to the following training regimen:
1) Running – 1 mile a day
2) Jump rope – 15-45 min a day
3) Bag work – 3 days a week – 10 rounds minimum
4) Pad work – 3 days a week – 1.5 hours minimum
5) Sparring – 6 days a week – 30 min sessions

So when you look at this, the sheer repetition and high training numbers show you how quickly striking skills develop.

In contrast to this, the typical training regimen of a WCK practitioner mostly looks as follows:

1) Running – from the parking lot to the kwoon 3x per week - @600ft.
2) Jump rope – jump what?
3) Bag work – we use the dummy for that, so did the dummy sets 3x @ 7 min.
4) Pad work – we don’t need to “chase hands” with pad work – we do compliant chi sau with air punches. 30 min.
5) Sparring – on Saturdays – attendance optional and low. 1.5 hours.
6) Forums – 3 hrs / week.
So the fact that most WCK practitioner’s hands don’t contain the skill of an average boxer is not difficult to spot why.

The suggestion is for the WCK practitioner, rather than quitting your striking development in WCK and seeking answers somewhere else, why don’t you buy yourself a good mouth guard and cup, some gloves – MMA and Boxing, and some decent shin pads and start mixing it up with boxers, MT boxers ,and MMA fighters? Oh, and get yourself a timer. Set it to 3-5 min. Hit start.

bennyvt
02-23-2010, 04:01 AM
here's an idea for those people, get off your arse and do the work. Any one that doesn't do sad work, heavy bag, any cardio, or vt bag should see that they are not doing anything. Minimum hundreds of punches needed. All environments needed. We are not all as lazy as what you discribe. Barry used to say its not the style its who worked the hardest.

t_niehoff
02-23-2010, 05:10 AM
Actually really fast hands (speed) does come from the body.. If you only use localized muscle you will never get as much speed or power as when you are grounded and the body is powering the arms.. (sequential summation of motion) The fastest attacks with arms are powered by the body.. Of course it depends on what kinds of movements...

What you really mean here is that the arms must be synced with the body as a single unit in motion, action. So then no, the ultra high speed CPs we often see are not synced, not connected and will have very little power.


"Fast hands" in WCK means no power. Period. And they are an indicator of poor WCK. When power comes from our body movement, the speed at which you can use that power is the speed of that body movement -- if your hands move any faster than that, you are no longer using the body.

And I don't mean that the arms are "synched with the body as a single unit of movement" -- I meant precisely what I said: The arms are extensions of the body. When I hit, I hit WITH my body -- it's just that my arm is between you and my body. It is like the hammer driving a nail.



EDIT:

BTW T a good example of why and what folks need to be shown.. Many don't get this point... and need to be shown.....shown...!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So there goes your 'your teacher can't show you....' Students do need to be shown many a thing...

Skills can only be learned in two ways --you are either shown a skill by someone who has that skill or you work it out for yourself. The former makes that task of learning much more efficient.

JPinAZ
02-23-2010, 03:03 PM
In contrast to this, the typical training regimen of a WCK practitioner mostly looks as follows:

1) Running – from the parking lot to the kwoon 3x per week - @600ft.
2) Jump rope – jump what?
3) Bag work – we use the dummy for that, so did the dummy sets 3x @ 7 min.
4) Pad work – we don’t need to “chase hands” with pad work – we do compliant chi sau with air punches. 30 min.
5) Sparring – on Saturdays – attendance optional and low. 1.5 hours.
6) Forums – 3 hrs / week.
So the fact that most WCK practitioner’s hands don’t contain the skill of an average boxer is not difficult to spot why.


Just as a note, not all WCK is trained as listed above. And, WCK also trains some different skills that boxing does, so the methods may differ, along with times focused.

Not sure if #6 was a typo and you meant forms, but forums 3 hrs/week isn't a far stretch either! T has to be putting in 3 times that, so he must be good!! :D

k gledhill
02-23-2010, 04:05 PM
The power of the punch -- like everything else -- comes from your body, not your elbow or wrist.

you missed the point of post....the elbows are the focus for a reason, throughout the system. For force we have a focus on other things . Timing for one ...

YungChun
02-23-2010, 04:53 PM
And I don't mean that the arms are "synched with the body


No of course not..

You mean..


if your hands move any faster than that, you are no longer using the body.


Right totally different.. The great battle of verbiage.

You are totally wrapped up in world of fixed ideas based on the words you choose and locked into your own verbiage bubble..

Real speed and power come from the body.. (Sequential Summation of Motion) Your term "fast hands" is just that, your term, referring to particular use of the hands without body connection.. BFD.

A WCK punch done with the body, fired from the body will be faster if done right than one only done with the arm.. The time between the actions CPs will increase (no egg beater) because of body connection, but real useful speed and power comes from the body, essentially hitting from the feet up...

bennyvt
02-24-2010, 03:07 AM
you dont use your body when you punch other then for bracing or timing movement with the punch. The speed is dependant on if i want to time of movement with my body movement (slower, but more power) or if i just punch. The body cant note as east as the arm so if i time it the punch is slower. The body is only an brace until i connect then the body is use to transfer force. When i was teaching i used to it people to again punch as hard as they can, then as fast as they can. The hard is slower and the fast are taps. I is learning to be as fast but also hard. This is were power comes in. The more speed the less strength you can use so power is low. Finding the medium is were the most power comes from. If you are fast work on hard. If you punch hard work on speed. Can depend on size etc. As example. My teacher had a friend that did the jim fung/ tst lineage. Which is really soft in its approach. But because he was so big, Strong and amazingly quick that once he learnt to relax he had the best punch as he had the strength to back up the speed..

YungChun
02-24-2010, 03:15 AM
you dont use your body when you punch other then for bracing or timing movement with the punch. The speed is dependant on if i want to time of movement with my body movement (slower, but more power) or if i just punch. The body cant note as east as the arm so if i time it the punch is slower. The body is only an brace until i connect then the body is use to transfer force. When i was teaching i used to it people to again punch as hard as they can, then as fast as they can. The hard is slower and the fast are taps. I is learning to be as fast but also hard. This is were power comes in. The more speed the less strength you can use so power is low. Finding the medium is were the most power comes from. If you are fast work on hard. If you punch hard work on speed. Can depend on size etc. As example. My teacher had a friend that did the jim fung/ tst lineage. Which is really soft in its approach. But because he was so big, Strong and amazingly quick that once he learnt to relax he had the best punch as he had the strength to back up the speed..

Hard to tell exactly what you mean.. However I would have to disagree that you can't use the body to make striking faster and more powerful.. In fact for real power the body is really doing the strike, more so than the arm.

An example is swinging a baseball bat or throwing a ball... If you use only your arms the swing/ball will be slower and less powerful.. Power and speed are related...

WCK striking with power, as I term it, is dependent on body alignment (connected mass) and syncing the opening of the joints... Bones align and the joints open as the strike is fired.. A pulse of power starts from the legs and goes upward through the spine to the arm and finally the hand or fist..etc..

Again Sequential Summation of Motion.. (see below) When you see folks doing the ultra fast (rapid succession) chain punching there is no real body involvement/connection..


The speed and velocity of a baseball when it is thrown receives its motion and momentum from the person throwing the ball. For great velocity it is necessary for the thrower to have momentum and transfer it to the ball. This transfer of momentum follows the principle of sequential summation of movement. This states that the largest body masses move first, followed progressively by smaller body masses (Barker). In baseball, the thrower of the ball represents this principle. The pitcher starts with his legs, then hips, shoulders, arm, wrist, and fingers. As each part reaches its full potential it is transfers along the line ultimately to the ball giving it momentum and velocity. This along with the rotating motion of the pitcher around his leg and the extension down the pitching mound creates maximum momentum and velocity (Barker).

LSWCTN1
02-24-2010, 04:09 AM
both T and Kev are correct according to what i learn.

there are others too.

T saying that there is no elbow power in wck is laughable, but each to their own. but it does bring me to another subject i wanted to ask T (see below) *

power can also come from the relaxed arm too - we are taught this; the easiest way to describe it is in the same way as Val Riazanov's ballistic striking youtube clips.

you can of course use your body to strike, but what about turning punches etc. where you DONT use your body to strike, but the hip/sinking?

in the WSL system we very rarely block, we attack. therefore speed and angles when striking (ie arm only) are often more appropriate, even counting for the slight loss in power.

also all this sparring you do T, and still not KO'd anyone? you ought to give it up...

*T: if you were to teach wck to someone, would you teach the system as you learnt it or the things that you find appropriate?

YungChun
02-24-2010, 04:14 AM
T saying that there is no elbow power in wck is laughable

Elbow power has more to do with taking position and displacement. Of course it also is part of the alignment of the whole body, second to last joint to open, the last being the supination (up tilt) of the *wrist* in the punch.


You can of course use your body to strike, but what about turning punches etc. where you DONT use your body to strike, but the hip/sinking?

What are you turning? The body, the core.. A pitcher also 'turns'..

And then there is the coiling...

bennyvt
02-24-2010, 05:53 AM
unless you lean, turn, or step the body does nothing in the punch except act as an anchor. The theory you keep on saying only comes into play from the shoulder girdle when a punch is made. All other muscles in the body are resisting the bodies tendency to turn with the strike. Yes the movement should start with the large muscle groups, pec, lat etc. Then onto the rotor cuff muscle them triceps them forearm. No pulse runs from your foot to your arm. Your nervous system uses the spinal core and transmitts to yous arm and shoulder. When i have conected with the punch and recieve feedback or force from the target then i transfer it to my stance so i dont go back.

t_niehoff
02-24-2010, 05:58 AM
both T and Kev are correct according to what i learn.

there are others too.

T saying that there is no elbow power in wck is laughable, but each to their own. but it does bring me to another subject i wanted to ask T (see below) *


You guys and your terms. By "elbow power" do you mean jang dae ik, elbow down power?



power can also come from the relaxed arm too - we are taught this; the easiest way to describe it is in the same way as Val Riazanov's ballistic striking youtube clips.


That stuff is utter nonsense. Let's see him do it in fighting and not to a bunch of pencil-necked scrubs in a demo.



you can of course use your body to strike, but what about turning punches etc. where you DONT use your body to strike, but the hip/sinking?


I use my body to strike whether stationary, stepping, turning, whatever. If you don't hit with your body, your strike has no power.



in the WSL system we very rarely block, we attack. therefore speed and angles when striking (ie arm only) are often more appropriate, even counting for the slight loss in power.


This is nonsense, pure theoretical dribble. Do you guys ever stop to consider what you opponent will be doing?



also all this sparring you do T, and still not KO'd anyone? you ought to give it up...


NONE OF YOU are KOing anyone. NONE. That's all fantasy of what you believe you will do should you ever fight. Well, it's not going to happen. If you aren't already doing it in your training, you aren't going to do it.



*T: if you were to teach wck to someone, would you teach the system as you learnt it or the things that you find appropriate?

I wouldn't teach "the system" since there is no system.

But, it depends on what the person who I would be teaching wanted. If they wanted the classical curriculum, I would teach them that. WCK, however, isn't the curriculum. It is an approach to fighting.

k gledhill
02-24-2010, 06:00 AM
Actually both gledhill and terence are correct, gledhill emphasizes on 发劲在膊 (Cyclic punches etc), whereas terence emphasizes on 力从地起 (Strength comes from the body)。

One very good way of developing the strikes is to hit on the wall bag, firm and slow with
each strike, (not the Yip Man movie ones).

cycling punches with deflective energy...

not that t is wrong , just that the point of my post was missed by him...I did not write about power because thats another part of development.
When you show a beginner the basic striking idea from SLT , the force is something to develop as well alongside the elbow training of SLT iow learning the angles of the arms for simultaneous striking comes first....:D Then the introduction of body unity from facing , hips, knee bone connected to the thigh bone , er yeah ! :D and so on...very important part of the systematic progression to a ko strikes [ t hasnt learned that part yet ;) ] .
For power timing is paramount, you can have a heavy punch but cr&p timing, so we move on to chi-sao drills after the dan chi becomes redundant with 2 stage punch drills.

In chi-sao we move a few inches closer than dan chi positions, so we can make contact with the partners torso/head. We dont do 2 stage strikes with elbow in [jum] first , then strike or elbow out [tan] etc...we simply strike with one action , aiming to impact the partner at the same time as the elbows are working the counter measures. Offering openings and feints to rid the student of clinging controlling arms , further developing the alignment ideas of Dan chi sao....using each others opposite arm/elbow deflection energy to have an equilibrium on the line ...any wrist deflections or use off the line of striking is immediately addressed to isolate and correct as it appears....
When fighting from no pre-contact you dont want the arms to focus on making redundant arm contact or using both arms extended as we attack one isolated arm prematurely, simply strike/attack ...
IF contact is made as you strike [attacking] you wont be unaligned using wrong energy as you aim your line at them as you angle /maneuver ...due to the instant feeling of incorrect energy being placed on your lead [man sao] you can send the rear hand into the space it has created, by its unaligned movement...
Because your partners have been so aligned it develops this idea... iow your fine tuned to sense mistaken energy delivery out at the opponent wrists or openings in their defense that you just hit into because your hand is trained to go forwards with gaps ..not chase, over control.....when he hands are free hit....
If the opponent is making motions of defense with arms/body you capitalize on this....fighting with an opportunistic idea.....in the moment taking advantage of mistakes made under pressure of attack....
If you make the mistake of trying to attack the arms first you are becoming what you have trained to rid yourself of....you are doing what you want the opponent to do ...seek your lead arm or open themselves up from its attacking nature

you are mastering the art of attack ...

thats why you will see P Bayer just doing a lot of angling & striking , to the untrained [terence] it looks like a lot of 'arms' alone but you wont FEEL whats going on , the body unity is there ...due to the angles of the arms you CANT use force on the lead strike as they cycle because the rear hand is always shooting a new line at you , regardless of what you do to the lead....you make a mistake and POW! [like batman] its over...the chi-sao makes us develop no mistakes back at EACH OTHER for drilling...but meet someone without this and as you attack they make defensive actions....unless they train to strike and attack together you can put them under pressure ....make them make a mistake without looking for it ...they can overturn, over swing...whatever ..mistakes.

Over turning is something we learn to correct doing Chum Kil...we ONLY TURN TO FACE OUR ATTACK LINE..not to deflect energy in a drill...the turningof energy comes from redundant ideas of controlling sticky development without alignment ideas ...you stick with wrists because nobody told you anything else...so you follow arms , cling to them, control first..etc....WHILE the other guys wailing on you relentlessly strike after strike with simultaneous deflections built in if your strike or attempt to defend /control makes contact...THEN we use partnership counter measures with cycling attack defense in opposite arms...aiming to get back to hitting with free hands....

ending the fight asap...


WSL used to have a blackboard with everyones mistakes on it ...you could reference everyones errors to correct....bad wu, bad bong..etc....

Some simple drills are introduced to show the ability of cycling strikes to work inside or outside incoming lines of force , all the time simply striking with chain punches, facing only for symmetry.
angling and facing with movement later in seung ma toi ma drills....

more later... but at the next stage we do lok sao ...dual facing equal reaching strikes.

sparring doesnt start from a ygkym stance ....like fighters in a ring moving for positions, using movement to feint , draw, etc... you should be like water flowing to water coming at you....the percentages of being the attacker AND staying to the sides of attacks will help you stay dry...WSL said this...if you stand n front blocking as most do you will get a drop of water on you sooner rather than later....% are in our favor if we adopt tactical angling with simple attacking concepts, backed by techniques developed to allow us to pursue the concept of attacking as the defense.
This is why WSL would ask student to attack him, simply to see how good is your attack ..if he could just take a few steps sideways , randomly shift as a bull fighter, could you maintain the attack without presenting a counter attack ? hmmm

Great Bullfighters are measured not by how much they do as the bull charges but how little..the horns of a 1 ton animal inches from them , all they did was move their feet a litle as the charge came...hidden beneath the cloak [bulls are color blind] a sword...you can paly with it or kill it immediately...depends on the crowd ; )

t_niehoff
02-24-2010, 07:21 AM
cycling punches with deflective energy...

not that t is wrong , just that the point of my post was missed by him...I did not write about power because thats another part of development.


This underscores the problem -- it's not a matter or learning to punch (arm) then working on power (body).

Let me use "pulling" as an example. In WCK you pull with your body not your arm. Your arm is just an attachment to your opponent that permits you to pull with your body. If you pull with your arm, you only can use localized muscle and that won't be able to pull strongly. If you pull with your whole body, you can pull someone, even if they resist, easily. The whole point to learning to pull is to learn to use the whole body to pull -- it's not a matter of learning the arm action then adding power as "another part of development". It's one process, one action. And it is a body action, not a arm action.

Moreoever, you can only develop the mechanics of pulling BY pulling, by practicing pulling with your entire body -- from the get-go.

It's the same with striking -- it is a body action not an arm action. The arm is involved, just like it is in pulling, because the arm is part of the entire body. Just like you practice pulling with your body from day 1 to learn and develop the skill of pulling with your body, you learn and practice the skill of hitting with your body from day 1.



In chi-sao we move a few inches closer than dan chi positions, so we can make contact with the partners torso/head. We dont do 2 stage strikes with elbow in [jum] first , then strike or elbow out [tan] etc...we simply strike with one action , aiming to impact the partner at the same time as the elbows are working the counter measures. Offering openings and feints to rid the student of clinging controlling arms , further developing the alignment ideas of Dan chi sao....using each others opposite arm/elbow deflection energy to have an equilibrium on the line ...any wrist deflections or use off the line of striking is immediately addressed to isolate and correct as it appears....

IF contact is made as you strike [attacking] you wont be unaligned using wrong energy as you aim your line at them as you angle /maneuver ...due to the instant feeling of incorrect energy being placed on your lead [man sao] you can send the rear hand into the space it has created, by its unaligned movement...
Because your partners have been so aligned it develops this idea... iow your fine tuned to sense mistaken energy delivery out at the opponent wrists or openings in their defense that you just hit into because your hand is trained to go forwards with gaps ..not chase, over control.....when he hands are free hit....
If the opponent is making motions of defense with arms/body you capitalize on this....fighting with an opportunistic idea.....in the moment taking advantage of mistakes made under pressure of attack....
If you make the mistake of trying to attack the arms first you are becoming what you have trained to rid yourself of....you are doing what you want the opponent to do ...seek your lead arm or open themselves up from its attacking nature

you are mastering the art of attack ...

thats why you will see P Bayer just doing a lot of angling & striking , to the untrained [terence] it looks like a lot of 'arms' alone but you wont FEEL whats going on , the body unity is there ...due to the angles of the arms you CANT use force on the lead strike as they cycle because the rear hand is always shooting a new line at you , regardless of what you do to the lead....you make a mistake and POW! [like batman] its over...the chi-sao makes us develop no mistakes back at EACH OTHER for drilling...but meet someone without this and as you attack they make defensive actions....unless they train to strike and attack together you can put them under pressure ....make them make a mistake without looking for it ...they can overturn, over swing...whatever ..mistakes.


Perhaps you can direct me to a video showing Bayer actually using striking?

Here is Phillip Bayer doing chi sao: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLWWfZvaO4U

He is not STRIKING in his chi sao.

YungChun
02-24-2010, 01:28 PM
unless you lean, turn, or step the body does nothing in the punch except act as an anchor.

Not correct. Look at the second form... Look up sequential summation of force. The legs start.. WCK aligns the bones, opens the joints.. This is basic stuff.. No need to step, it's the slight transfer of weight (legs) that starts it, as when you swing a bat.. basic stuff.

k gledhill
02-24-2010, 07:00 PM
This underscores the problem -- it's not a matter or learning to punch (arm) then working on power (body).

Let me use "pulling" as an example. In WCK you pull with your body not your arm. Your arm is just an attachment to your opponent that permits you to pull with your body. If you pull with your arm, you only can use localized muscle and that won't be able to pull strongly. If you pull with your whole body, you can pull someone, even if they resist, easily. The whole point to learning to pull is to learn to use the whole body to pull -- it's not a matter of learning the arm action then adding power as "another part of development". It's one process, one action. And it is a body action, not a arm action.

Moreoever, you can only develop the mechanics of pulling BY pulling, by practicing pulling with your entire body -- from the get-go.

It's the same with striking -- it is a body action not an arm action. The arm is involved, just like it is in pulling, because the arm is part of the entire body. Just like you practice pulling with your body from day 1 to learn and develop the skill of pulling with your body, you learn and practice the skill of hitting with your body from day 1.



Perhaps you can direct me to a video showing Bayer actually using striking?

Here is Phillip Bayer doing chi sao: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLWWfZvaO4U

He is not STRIKING in his chi sao.

T your trying to be something of an officionado of what vt is....your not :D so me trying to make it worthy of you is low on my list of things to do...who cares what you think .

I dont sorry.

how about a video of you showing us how it should be done ...hmmmm


btw if you cant see P Bayer issuing controlled strikes then your in for a shocking surprise son...


few have mastered the fixed elbow principle, less who even know what it is....lost in feelin g controlling sticky quagmire of redundancy....

bennyvt
02-25-2010, 02:12 AM
with the pivot you use distance to create more momentum. Punch is using power. Not the swing. And when we pivot the muscles of the thigh and butt start the movement like when we run. The glut activates then the hamstring etc. You seen to be using terms you post of understand. But one thing isn't it amazing that the elbow force people talk about is just learning that the movement should be started by the major muscles. Basic biomechanics.

t_niehoff
02-25-2010, 06:02 AM
T your trying to be something of an officionado of what vt is....your not :D so me trying to make it worthy of you is low on my list of things to do...who cares what you think .

I dont sorry.

how about a video of you showing us how it should be done ...hmmmm


btw if you cant see P Bayer issuing controlled strikes then your in for a shocking surprise son...


few have mastered the fixed elbow principle, less who even know what it is....lost in feelin g controlling sticky quagmire of redundancy....

"Strikes" means actually hitting someone. Get it? Really striking them. Where is Bayer actually hitting someone? And with power? He's not. Throwing a punch and not hitting someone isn't striking in my book -- it's a sign of poor training.

t_niehoff
02-25-2010, 06:04 AM
with the pivot you use distance to create more momentum. Punch is using power. Not the swing. And when we pivot the muscles of the thigh and butt start the movement like when we run. The glut activates then the hamstring etc. You seen to be using terms you post of understand. But one thing isn't it amazing that the elbow force people talk about is just learning that the movement should be started by the major muscles. Basic biomechanics.

As I see it, the WCK punch isn't based on momentum (like boxing) and striking power does not come from rotation.

k gledhill
02-25-2010, 06:15 AM
"Strikes" means actually hitting someone. Get it? Really striking them. Where is Bayer actually hitting someone? And with power? He's not. Throwing a punch and not hitting someone isn't striking in my book -- it's a sign of poor training.

control ...contact is made with certain degrees of control, ultimately you cant hit a guys head unprotected and gloves throw timing off , We do a heavy bag routine with other drills , pads etc... We also use padded chest protectors for force of contact in chi-sao, bare handed. Wall bag training plays a large part too...I found that from 'experience' my punches easily ko'd guys ...how about you ? experience without gloves really hitting people bare handed as vt should be ...what where your results ? no video required , lets just hear what happened T ....hmmmm:D

Phillip has had many fights too....;)

poor training ? tsk tsk , never hit anyone for real ? glove ? geared up ? no wonder you have trouble and resort to all that control bs.... if youe ever in nyc I can show you in 5 minutes....

pivoting alone is not the idea ..you have to move the whole line your pivoting from , or create space for yourself when the opponent moves into it...what side and what angle is taken care of intuitively from all the training...you dont want to stand in front seeking to control or over use hands....angling , motion, as dummy...

attack hands ... if you train to feel arms and control then its easy to mislead you...

Wayfaring
02-25-2010, 07:14 AM
control ...contact is made with certain degrees of control, ultimately you cant hit a guys head unprotected and gloves throw timing off , We do a heavy bag routine with other drills , pads etc... We also use padded chest protectors for force of contact in chi-sao, bare handed. Wall bag training plays a large part too...I found that from 'experience' my punches easily ko'd guys ...how about you ? experience without gloves really hitting people bare handed as vt should be ...what where your results ? no video required , lets just hear what happened T ....hmmmm:D


Interesting dilemma. You can't incorporate real striking into your training without gloves, you feel gloves throw timing off. How do you train strikes in a realistic manner, with realistic force, and an opponent trying to strike you back?

With most WCK schools, the answer is they don't. And that introduces a lack of realism into training. And leads towards a "too deadly for the streets" mindset which is delusional.

Pro boxers train with larger gloves than anyone else, and they seem to not have a large problem with timing without gloves. Why do WCK practitioners?

t_niehoff
02-25-2010, 07:17 AM
control ...contact is made with certain degrees of control, ultimately you cant hit a guys head unprotected and gloves throw timing off , We do a heavy bag routine with other drills , pads etc... We also use padded chest protectors for force of contact in chi-sao, bare handed. Wall bag training plays a large part too...I found that from 'experience' my punches easily ko'd guys ...how about you ? experience without gloves really hitting people bare handed as vt should be ...what where your results ? no video required , lets just hear what happened T ....hmmmm:D


So, in other words, he isn't striking anyone on his videos. That is my point. So why pretend to strike-- why throw a punch and not connect? That's poor training.

You don't need to strike people in the head, you can hit their body. And you don't need "chest protectors" for chi sao.

Yeah, I know -- you are KOing everyone "on the streets", you just can't seem to do it in a gym. Sure. You certainly have a fertile imagination.

My experince? Simple -- if you aren't doing it in the gym, if you aren't regularly and consistently doing it in training, then you won't be able to do it. It's that simple. If you aren't already doing something then you won't be able to do it.



Phillip has had many fights too....;)


Of course. That explains why he puts up all kinds of videos but none of sparring.



poor training ? tsk tsk , never hit anyone for real ? glove ? geared up ? no wonder you have trouble and resort to all that control bs.... if youe ever in nyc I can show you in 5 minutes....


If you want to "show me", then go spar with some muay thai or boxers and tape it and put it up. That will show me. But you won't do that.

Imagine if boxers or muay thia fighters practiced and threw punches and kicks in their drills but didn't really strike anything.



pivoting alone is not the idea ..you have to move the whole line your pivoting from , or create space for yourself when the opponent moves into it...what side and what angle is taken care of intuitively from all the training...you dont want to stand in front seeking to control or over use hands....angling , motion, as dummy...

attack hands ... if you train to feel arms and control then its easy to mislead you...

Lovely theory.

CFT
02-25-2010, 07:20 AM
Hit to body instead of head? Sounds like they compartmentalize their drills. Some to develop power, others to develop timing, etc. Would like to know how it is brought together. Maybe I missed something on the reading.

(I see T has beaten me to the post re: hitting the body)

YungChun
02-25-2010, 07:23 AM
Interesting dilemma. You can't incorporate real striking into your training without gloves, you feel gloves throw timing off. How do you train strikes in a realistic manner, with realistic force, and an opponent trying to strike you back?

With most WCK schools, the answer is they don't. And that introduces a lack of realism into training. And leads towards a "too deadly for the streets" mindset which is delusional.

Pro boxers train with larger gloves than anyone else, and they seem to not have a large problem with timing without gloves. Why do WCK practitioners?
I agree that much WCK training does not make enough contact...

ChiSao training (for example) should incorporate lots of contact (power release) as the student moves ahead in training. IME we used basically full power to the body, and hard contact to the head but not full contact to the head unless some kind of headgear/mouthpiece is used.

Hard contact striking, both giving and receiving when ready is key to good wck training. In the old days folks would often get knocked down, put into walls and even cut... All important for developing power and the ability to manage and deal with that power.

k gledhill
02-25-2010, 04:06 PM
the crux of your post is 'prove it' , I dont have to because I have experienced ko'ing myself, many times...and not for your viewing pleasure, or to see if you think it was good or not :D...you dont know what you are talking about...you think you do....making it funnier to read.

one day T you will find out if your lucky. Then you can make a valid critique.


as for boxers and gloves ...they hurt their hands really easily without gloves ....hitting hard skull can lead to broken hands....they train with gloves to avoid hurting their hands...the easiest thing to do to a bare knuckle boxer is head butt his fist ;)..old trick.

wrapping further protects unconditioned fists/wrist from spraining. hitting a heavy bag can easily injure your wrists if unaligned on contact.

gloves / timing affects OUR punch due to its distance restrictions ...not withdrawing like boxer ....If vt swung punches like boxers we could wear gloves too :D develop soft hands...If I strike you as you come to me or I to you the small inches of padding will change the required dynamics to hurt you....you may feel it :D just not what can be maxed with bare hands....

I have hit a lot of people in fighting using palms elbows, kicks...fists :D never hurt my hands ...except learning ealry on sparring in the gym with ...bare hands...then adopting open palms from experience of injuries hitting heads with knuckles...making me aware of targets as they come...head up or face down charges...what I hit you with will change as you get closer :D time slows down .....good for me .

making a decision based on experience , whether to hit with palm or fist ...also knowing the effects of the various strikes, they dont have the same effects....so you can use one over the other to get a result...from experience....

If i want to seriously damage you but not leave a mark for legal reasons....? or if there are witnesses to your ..er defensive situation ..one stike method is better than an other, one looks like your pushing someone away as you 'defend ' yourself ;)....what the third person see's can be very important to your freedom for the evening :D:D

k gledhill
02-25-2010, 04:16 PM
So, in other words, he isn't striking anyone on his videos. That is my point. So why pretend to strike-- why throw a punch and not connect? That's poor training.

You don't need to strike people in the head, you can hit their body. And you don't need "chest protectors" for chi sao.

Yeah, I know -- you are KOing everyone "on the streets", you just can't seem to do it in a gym. Sure. You certainly have a fertile imagination.

My experince? Simple -- if you aren't doing it in the gym, if you aren't regularly and consistently doing it in training, then you won't be able to do it. It's that simple. If you aren't already doing something then you won't be able to do it.



Of course. That explains why he puts up all kinds of videos but none of sparring.



If you want to "show me", then go spar with some muay thai or boxers and tape it and put it up. That will show me. But you won't do that.

Imagine if boxers or muay thia fighters practiced and threw punches and kicks in their drills but didn't really strike anything.



Lovely theory.


just saying its lovely theory says it all....you really havent got a clue :)

we drill with heavy bags , pads etc...chest protectors , but NOT gloves..so watching thai do drills they dont stand and get hit with kicks in the head for each other do they ? no not until they spar...same with me..

Heavy bag routines too...or do they hit their thai partners in the thigh/shin repeatedly drilling..oh yeah shin pads too....

head gear and heavier padded gloves for ..er sparring when boxing...they work out with thier trainers hitting ...er pads....

I can show simple routines for developing a punch like thai or boxers....do you really need to see me hitting you full force in the head to believe it will hurt you, if so then your the one we should video recieving it .... for everyone to see if my punch works :D?

add wall bag training...

Then we can see the chi-sao is for developing alignment etc...timing while moving with a partner dealing with situations we may encounter as we fight..the fighting being the aim not the drill....iow we aim to spar like boxers, thai fighters....chi-sao isnt the way we spar , its a drill with redundant double arm extension used , for OUR drills...we also use it for distance training to stay with the opponent in a critical distance we function in ..impact angles are drilled, with motion...like hitting a heavy bag that moves randomly, with arms attached... impact distances are trained to strike as they come so the timing of our strike delivery works ... th einch punch is a test of this distance , showing a good body alignment ..feet, knees, hips etc... this structure is critical to our force transfer ...we do a lot of seung ma attacking entry, and toi ma , angling attacking offside to the given line of force ..ie left or right tan is role playing a guys arm extending at you...you then move as you counter strike...like working out with a boxing trainer doing timing drills with each other..not standing in one spot clinching and hitting with elbows out then back to clinching... remeber we adopt a lead and rear hand for a very important reason...NOT 2 extended as the drill chi-sao.

btw t I'm writing for those with open minds ; )

Maybe you have a theory it is for clinch control hitting ? wrong thinking. thats waiting to feel the guys arms so they tell you what to do...did that before ...doesnt work. I have met others who think it is and proved them wrong too...didnt have to hurt them to prove it. I have good control when striking so I can do as much or as little as possible, from EXPERIENCE.... becasue I trained with bare hands that feel what they do ..good or bad..iow mistakes like hitting a forehead a little to hard with knuckles..or timing is off, so I cant even touch with a completely extended arm. or too close even if I strike with heavy bare handed force the impact is lost for bad TIMING ....

I have done and met a lot of lineages in Europe and USA ..met and done chi-sao with both YM sons, trained with the 'King of chi-sao " and was his senior instructor for over 20 yrs, did security work for 10 odd years fighting regularly sparring in class out side and having real fights, I also met YOUR instructor and did chi-sao with him ....ask yourself why a guy with that experience would drop it instantly and follow a WSL instructor with little known ability living in Germany ....? I have met others with 10 years under other 'name' sifu who dropped their ways too , like a sack of sh&t.....

hmmm?

curious...?

I know from EXPERIENCE why your making the mistakes your making..without even seeing your video T .....I bet you use you wrists against a tan strike in chi-sao ...hmmmm mwahahah ! hah

too funny. if so you have wasted a lot of years training ... never too late to jump out of the well..only you wont find many friendly crickets out there... they may eat you instead.

wingchunIan
02-24-2011, 05:23 AM
Interesting dilemma. You can't incorporate real striking into your training without gloves, you feel gloves throw timing off. How do you train strikes in a realistic manner, with realistic force, and an opponent trying to strike you back?

With most WCK schools, the answer is they don't. And that introduces a lack of realism into training. And leads towards a "too deadly for the streets" mindset which is delusional.

Pro boxers train with larger gloves than anyone else, and they seem to not have a large problem with timing without gloves. Why do WCK practitioners?

Why does everyone idolise pro boxers so much? I've done boxing (semi pro - not very good) and muay thai (instructor and fighter - bit better) and love both systems. I love watching both sports but this obsession with boxing punches is lame. I've lost count of the number of pro boxers who have broken their hand when they've hit someone in the street (including the legendary Iron Mike). Boxing is a science designed for application in a rule bound sporting contest, it has evolved beyond measure since the intro of the queensbury rules, gloves etc. There is a simple reason why boxers and thai boxers wrap their hands during training and fighting and its not just to look good.

couch
02-24-2011, 06:48 AM
Why does everyone idolise pro boxers so much?


Because boxing can't be beat for shear application of punching...something that most Traditional Martial Arts lack. And because it works.


There is a simple reason why boxers and thai boxers wrap their hands during training and fighting and its not just to look good.

Because they are going 12 rounds. There's a reason amateurs DON'T get their hands taped and just wear the cloth wraps: because they are only going 3x2min rounds.

backyard1
02-26-2011, 01:51 AM
this has been covered before.. yes boxing will give you a basic 'how to punch and put your body behind it'...wing chun will give you that and how to trap, kick, grab etc..thats why we study wc and not boxing. If you study MA a while its not the basic strikes that are important, everyone knows them. Its your particular style and how you deal with people such as boxers

k gledhill
02-26-2011, 08:42 AM
VT striking , kicking etc, allows us to 'maintain' attacking.