Best WC DVD's

[sanjuro_ronin]

I wanted to get a thread going on people's views of who they think puts out the best DVD's ( they can be instructionals or not) on WC and WHY they believe those DVD's to be top notch.

This is not about learning from a DVD, though some are better than others for that, nor is it about whether one CAN learn from a DVD, that is another topic.
Its about which DVD's seem to, in your opinion, show WC how it is "supposed" to be done.

[goju]

i checked out michael wongs and william cheungs dvds form the library a few months back and was very impressed with not only their skill but with how thurough the instruction was

what i liked about it specifically was how basic and to the point the applications were

[sanjuro_ronin]

i checked out michael wongs and william cheungs dvds form the library a few months back and was very impressed with not only their skill but with how thurough the instruction was

what i liked about it specifically was how basic and to the point the applications were

Links would be nice...

[goju]

off the top of my head i believe i viewed cheungs volume 1-5

http://www.vidoemo.com/yvideo.php?i=TC1JdWwycWuRpZzN6b1E&wing-chun-william-cheung

http://www.vidoemo.com/yvideo.php?i=WlRYQTVzcWuRpbkVZYTg&william-cheung-s-traditional-wooden-dummy-techniques

http://www.vidoemo.com/yvideo.php?i=NU1DM1dEcWuRpbUxXNzQ&william-cheung-biuji



http://www.vidoemo.com/yvideo.php?i=eXp4QnJWcWuRpVXMzQlk&wing-chun-chum-kiu-video-preview

http://www.vidoemo.com/yvideo.php?i=WDJzOFlCcWuRpTFItZjQ&wing-chun-dummy-116-video-preview

what i like about these is that the trapping was simple and to the point

a simple block folowed by a strike not a giant mash up of nine blocks to deal with one punch

even in other arts like goju they tend to over complicate it and it ends up looking like paddy cake paddy cake or kenpo hands(lol)

im sure theres more on the vids but im horrible at finding stuff on the net sorry:D

[SAAMAG]

I got the LT videos a while back, but was so unimpressed with them that I left them with a friend who wanted to see them and forgot all about them.

Until just now that is.

[sihing]

David Peterson's DVD's (SNT, Chum Kiu and Mok Jong) are excellent. All of them are over 2 1/2 hrs long, lots of details about the how's and why's and some applications too. Of course David is from the WSL line.

Gary Lam's are good as well. Gary in person is just like he is on the DVD's, plus he gives away allot of gems on his DVD's, sometimes not sticking to the subject. I really like his early stuff, which was much less scripted and more natural Gary. Gary is probably the best representative of "natural" Wing Chun, as when you see him in person or on the DVD's you don't quite see the basics in him or strict fixed postures, as everything he uses he applies the rule of economy of motion, which is just using that much of it that you need.

I picked up Alan Orr's NHB DVD series, it's excellent as well, tons of good stuff on those, mixed in with MMA & real life applications and drills. Alan explains their body structure method very well, and has some interesting takes on standing grappling (chin na) that is within the Wing Chun system, you just have to be shown where it is, as well as bare fisted fighting from the old days.

James

[t_niehoff]

I wanted to get a thread going on people's views of who they think puts out the best DVD's ( they can be instructionals or not) on WC and WHY they believe those DVD's to be top notch.

This is not about learning from a DVD, though some are better than others for that, nor is it about whether one CAN learn from a DVD, that is another topic.
Its about which DVD's seem to, in your opinion, show WC how it is "supposed" to be done.

Two things.

First. the whole idea of "supposed to be done" is an erroneous way to look at things IMO. This falls into the TMA-authoritative mindset. It's not about how things are supposed to be done but about how YOU can make things work. And I think that is a very important distinction.

Second, the best way to go about this is not to start with various WCK DVDs but rather to start with what would be a good DVD and then use that standard ascomparison for any WCK DVD. For me, the standard was set by Mario Sperry's first Vale Tudo series of DVDs. What he did was show you step-by-step what HE did in fighting, explaining why he did what he did, then showed how he trained it, and then showed himself actually using it in fighting. So you saw for yourself that what he taught, what he trained, and what he fought were 1 to 1 to 1.

How many WCK DVDs do that? Most IME simply show the curriculum (forms, drills, dummy) of WCK, and then - unfortunately- often show silly, unrealistic what-they-call-applications and I call fantasy-dream-sequences.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I Liked Mario's Vale Tudo DVD's series, I have all 3 volumes of them.
I think the DBMA "mantra" of, "you see it taught, you see it fought" should be the blueprint of ANY MA DVD.

I Have Alan Orr's stuff and I liked it and I have Sifu Kwok's DVD series, "mastering Wing Chun" and I don't like it that much.
Alan's stuff is good, but there was less practical applications than I though there would be.
Sifu Kwok's DVD's suffer from his bad english and because of that he has, at times, a hard time explaining things, though his skill is obvious.

[sanjuro_ronin]

David Peterson's DVD's (SNT, Chum Kiu and Mok Jong) are excellent. All of them are over 2 1/2 hrs long, lots of details about the how's and why's and some applications too. Of course David is from the WSL line.

Gary Lam's are good as well. Gary in person is just like he is on the DVD's, plus he gives away allot of gems on his DVD's, sometimes not sticking to the subject. I really like his early stuff, which was much less scripted and more natural Gary. Gary is probably the best representative of "natural" Wing Chun, as when you see him in person or on the DVD's you don't quite see the basics in him or strict fixed postures, as everything he uses he applies the rule of economy of motion, which is just using that much of it that you need.

I picked up Alan Orr's NHB DVD series, it's excellent as well, tons of good stuff on those, mixed in with MMA & real life applications and drills. Alan explains their body structure method very well, and has some interesting takes on standing grappling (chin na) that is within the Wing Chun system, you just have to be shown where it is, as well as bare fisted fighting from the old days.

James

Thanks James.
Gary has LOTS of DVD's !
From the clips I have seen of Gary, he uses his size a lot ( not a critique, just an observation) and the clips I have seen of Sifu Peterson ( Trailers for his DVD's) all look pretty good in terms of instruction.

[t_niehoff]

I Liked Mario's Vale Tudo DVD's series, I have all 3 volumes of them.
I think the DBMA "mantra" of, "you see it taught, you see it fought" should be the blueprint of ANY MA DVD.


I think the mantra should be "if you don't see it fought, then it isn't taught".



I Have Alan Orr's stuff and I liked it and I have Sifu Kwok's DVD series, "mastering Wing Chun" and I don't like it that much.
Alan's stuff is good, but there was less practical applications than I though there would be.
Sifu Kwok's DVD's suffer from his bad english and because of that he has, at times, a hard time explaining things, though his skill is obvious.

You can't see skill unless you see fighting. So, you can't know if someone has skill without seeing them fight.

Many people are very good at performing the curriculum of WCK (forms, drills, etc.). To me, however, this isn't skill -- skill in any martial art is in fighting (being able to use that art's tools, i.e., movements, actions, tactics, etc., in fighting).

Almost all the WCK DVDs out there are IMO superficial, and provide more poor (and wrong) information than good. So, generally, I think they are better avoided.

As I see it, there is a core curriculum of WCK which comprises those things you NEED to put it together for yourself. Now, no one can put it together for you -- you must work it out for yourself (you learn to box by boxing). And this presents two main problems with WCK DVDs. The first is that a DVD can't help you work it out for yourself. The second is that almost all the people who produce WCK DVDs don't have-- and certainly don't present -- the core curriculum. And, without all the NECESSARY pieces it will be extremely difficult for anyone to put it together.

From my perspective, the critical thing is the process of putting it together. You can't get that from a DVD.

[JPinAZ]

Blah blah blah.... The second is that almost all the people who produce WCK DVDs don't have-- and certainly don't present -- the core curriculum. And, without all the NECESSARY pieces it will be extremely difficult for anyone to put it together.

Well, since you obviously are an authority on the subject on who's got what, name the ones that DO 'have it' in your expert opinion.

Since you think most don't, it should be a short list, so won't take you long. No side stepping or backtracking, no 'well these are the ones that don't have it....'. If you have such a strong certainty on who has what, lets hear who you think DOES have it.

While you're at it, why not list the things they have that 'almost all' the others are missing

We'll see if you have balls enough to do it, or are you just full of BS all the time.... ;)

[sihing]

Thanks James.
Gary has LOTS of DVD's !
From the clips I have seen of Gary, he uses his size a lot ( not a critique, just an observation) and the clips I have seen of Sifu Peterson ( Trailers for his DVD's) all look pretty good in terms of instruction.

Gary for sure uses his size to his advantage. That advantage is that he is always sitting in his stance rooted, his weight helps him do that. But when you train with him, there is no strength or tension invovled, he's very soft and lets you try to hit it at will, sometimes he gets touched but that is the moment he has you in his grasps. He has amazing control, as when I first chi sau'd with him, he threw me around a bit and control my attacks, but when I saw him deal with other senior students his intensity was much higher, he threw them around like rag dolls. It's hard to pick up those sublties on DVD.

I like David's DVD's because it gives me the details that I need to know as a teacher and for personal knowledge. He's a teacher by profession, and he speaks chinese language very proficently so he was able to communicate with WSL on that personal level, which gives us all a unique prospective as well.

James

[LSWCTN1]

of all the ones i have seen, i like the Duncan Leung series.

however, everyone has their own 'way' of wing chun; so i found that watching DVDs and picking up attributes can sometimes be detrimental

[t_niehoff]

Well, since you obviously are an authority on the subject on who's got what, name the ones that DO 'have it' in your expert opinion.

Since you think most don't, it should be a short list, so won't take you long. No side stepping or backtracking, no 'well these are the ones that don't have it....'. If you have such a strong certainty on who has what, lets hear who you think DOES have it.

While you're at it, why not list the things they have that 'almost all' the others are missing

We'll see if you have balls enough to do it, or are you just full of BS all the time.... ;)

As I said, "Almost all the WCK DVDs out there are IMO superficial, and provide more poor (and wrong) information than good. So, generally, I think they are better avoided."

None, IMO, present the entire core curriculum of WCK, although some present parts of it. Alan, for example, does a good job of presenting an introduction to "body structure". I liked parts of a Boztepe tape that I saw (can't remember the name of it) as it showed him getting in, controlling the opponent, and hitting with elbows. Likewise, I think Gary Lam's DVDs, particularly those parts pertaining to controlling aspects, have some useful info.

FWIW, Robert and I once spent an entire weekend just reviewing various tapes and DVDs, many commercial and some private, and it was one of the most depressing weekends of my life!

[HumbleWCGuy]

I haven't seen any Wing Chun DVDs that made me jump for joy. However, I liked Augustine Fong's DVDs stuck out. I like the first DVD of Cheung's stuff where he sort of gives the overview of his system. Allen Orr's stuff has gotten good reviews by people, but I was not in love with what I saw. Wing Chun DVDs are hit and miss to some extent. If you have a goal of some certain thing that you are looking for, you might get closer to what you want from a DVD.

[JPinAZ]

As I said, "Almost all the WCK DVDs out there are IMO superficial, and provide more poor (and wrong) information than good. So, generally, I think they are better avoided."

None, IMO, present the entire core curriculum of WCK, although some present parts of it. Alan, for example, does a good job of presenting an introduction to "body structure". I liked parts of a Boztepe tape that I saw (can't remember the name of it) as it showed him getting in, controlling the opponent, and hitting with elbows. Likewise, I think Gary Lam's DVDs, particularly those parts pertaining to controlling aspects, have some useful info.

FWIW, Robert and I once spent an entire weekend just reviewing various tapes and DVDs, many commercial and some private, and it was one of the most depressing weekends of my life!

Yeah, that's great. But you totally avoided the question. I didn't think you could/would do it. So, you were just talking sh!t without the balls to go on with the follow thru of naming them.

BTW, this is what I quoted you saying "The second is that almost all the people who produce WCK DVDs don't have-- and certainly don't present -- the core curriculum. And, without all the NECESSARY pieces it will be extremely difficult for anyone to put it together"

[JPinAZ]

To add to the thread: I have only seen a few instructional dvds on WC. While I don't really care for learning anything from a video, I did enjoy watching Master Wong's videos on Youtube. That guy cracks me up.

[t_niehoff]

Yeah, that's great. But you totally avoided the question. I didn't think you could/would do it. So, you were just talking sh!t without the balls to go on with the follow thru of naming them.


Sorry, but I thought your question was for me to name some that I thought had useful info. Didn't I do that?



BTW, this is what I quoted you saying "The second is that almost all the people who produce WCK DVDs don't have-- and certainly don't present -- the core curriculum. And, without all the NECESSARY pieces it will be extremely difficult for anyone to put it together"

The core curriculum of WCK begins with the faat, the method. In fact, that's the most critical element of the curriculum. Then there are the fundamental skills of WCK, what you need to be able to do to implement the method. Body structure, for example, is the first of the fundamentals. Hitting with body structure the next. I could go on but each builds on the preceding one (there is a natural progression) and if you don't have 1or 2, it won't help to talk about 3 and up. Then you need the tactics, various ways of using the skills. That's the basic material in the core curriculum.

[HumbleWCGuy]

To add to the thread: I have only seen a few instructional dvds on WC. While I don't really care for learning anything from a video, I did enjoy watching Master Wong's videos on Youtube. That guy cracks me up.

I watched some of his videos. They are available on NetFlix. They are decent. If nothing else he is funny as you point out.

I agree. Learning from videos is a bad approach although, I know a few people who have essentially garage trained from tapes and gotten help from experts when possible and won quite a few mma fights.

[JPinAZ]

Sorry, but I thought your question was for me to name some that I thought had useful info. Didn't I do that?

No, that wasn't my question, and I clearly showed the quote twice now. I'll make it stupid simple - I was asking you to name the teachers of WC that do "have-- and certainly do present -- the core curriculum".
It's obvious from your refusal to answer and act of stupidity (acting like you can't read plain english - maybe it's not an act ;) ) that you are admitting you are full of BS and talk a lot of crap in general. But, I'll give you a third chance at it.


The core curriculum of WCK begins with the faat, the method. In fact, that's the most critical element of the curriculum.

What faat/method are you even talking about? WCK has a lot of 'kuen faat' (methods). One could say that just learning WC is the kuen faat or method, so they all have faat as part of a curriculum. Or, simply that the curriculum is the faat. Heck, the learning of any style of fighting has methods. You are only stating the obvious, big deal.


Then there are the fundamental skills of WCK, what you need to be able to do to implement the method. Body structure, for example, is the first of the fundamentals. Hitting with body structure the next. I could go on but each builds on the preceding one (there is a natural progression) and if you don't have 1or 2, it won't help to talk about 3 and up. Then you need the tactics, various ways of using the skills. That's the basic material in the core curriculum.

And now you talk of body method. So, now you are trying to say that power and structure is about using the whole body. Wow, what a revelation :rolleyes:
Of course you have to use your whole body when fighting and for developing power and structure... you act like this is some big hidden secret or something. This is something that should be pretty standard and one of the main focus of WCK (at least what I have seen and learned). You're still not saying anything beyond basic understanding of WC.
Again, big deal :rolleyes:

[CFT]

And now you talk of body method. So, now you are trying to say that power and structure is about using the whole body. Wow, what a revelation :rolleyes:
Of course you have to use your whole body when fighting and for developing power and structure... you act like this is some big hidden secret or something. This is something that should be pretty standard and one of the main focus of WCK (at least what I have seen and learned). You're still not saying anything beyond basic understanding of WC.
Again, big deal :rolleyes:What you have commented on is not typically seen in any "instructional" DVD/videos. Usually they are just run through of techniques. A vs. B type of thing. Very few show a developmental progression. I've not seen all the WCK vids on the market but I'd stick my neck out and say that none are organised as a curriculum.

[t_niehoff]

No, that wasn't my question, and I clearly showed the quote twice now. I'll make it stupid simple - I was asking you to name the teachers of WC that do "have-- and certainly do present -- the core curriculum".
It's obvious from your refusal to answer and act of stupidity (acting like you can't read plain english - maybe it's not an act ;) ) that you are admitting you are full of BS and talk a lot of crap in general. But, I'll give you a third chance at it.


Sorry, I can read plain english (it comes with 21 years of education) but that doesn't always mean I understand YOU.



What faat/method are you even talking about? WCK has a lot of 'kuen faat' (methods). One could say that just learning WC is the kuen faat or method, so they all have faat as part of a curriculum. Or, simply that the curriculum is the faat. Heck, the learning of any style of fighting has methods. You are only stating the obvious, big deal.


No, WCK doesn't have a lot of "kuen faat" -- it has a kuen faat, although it can be described in various ways. For example, the keywords dap, jee, chum, biu, chi describe the faat.

If I am only stating the obvious, then what's the problem?

But getting back to what I was saying, I don't see that represented or taught in the WCK DVDs.



And now you talk of body method. So, now you are trying to say that power and structure is about using the whole body. Wow, what a revelation :rolleyes:
Of course you have to use your whole body when fighting and for developing power and structure... you act like this is some big hidden secret or something. This is something that should be pretty standard and one of the main focus of WCK (at least what I have seen and learned). You're still not saying anything beyond basic understanding of WC.
Again, big deal :rolleyes:

I'm not saying it is a "big deal", I'm saying that I don't see these things represented or taught on WCK DVDs. There are no secrets, but just because something isn't a secret doesn't mean eveeryone has it or can do it. There are no secrets in BJJ but not everyone is a black belt.

I agree that I am not saying anything beyond a basic level of WCK, but unfortunately, I don't think many - including those producing DVDs -- have even a basic level understanding of WCK.

[anerlich]

FWIW, Robert and I once spent an entire weekend just reviewing various tapes and DVDs, many commercial and some private, and it was one of the most depressing weekends of my life!

Robert is the one I really feel sorry for. Suffering both the crap DVDs and you for an entire weekend :p

[anerlich]

I've not seen all the WCK vids on the market but I'd stick my neck out and say that none are organised as a curriculum.


My org has a set of curriculum videos, but they would be of little value to anyone outside the org in my estimation. Curriculums seem to vary so much and all.

[YungChun]

I don't think many - including those producing DVDs -- have even a basic level understanding of WCK.


But anyone can teach it... :p:rolleyes::cool:

[YungChun]

I've not seen all the WCK vids on the market but I'd stick my neck out and say that none are organised as a curriculum.


Benny's VTM Yip Man Ving Tsun series comes close to covering the early core--mileage will vary..

[t_niehoff]

But anyone can teach it... :p:rolleyes::cool:

Yup. They can teach what they can do. If they can do forms, they can teach them. If they can do drills, they can teach that.

Just because someone teaches doesn't mean they are necessarily at university level -- some are kindergarden, others are first grade,etc.

You can learn golf from a really poor golfer. But he won't make you a good golfer.

In WCK, if it was a requirement that a person be able to fight their way out of a wet sack, then 99.9 % of the people teaching, including the grandmasters and masters, would be disqualified.

[Matrix]

In WCK, if it was a requirement that a person be able to fight their way out of a wet sack, then 99.9 % of the people teaching, including the grandmasters and masters, would be disqualified.Do you teach?

[anerlich]

Do you teach?

No, he pontificates, ridicules, and harangues.

BTW, them Kevlar sacks are **** tough to get out of, wet or dry.

[CFT]

My org has a set of curriculum videos, but they would be of little value to anyone outside the org in my estimation. Curriculums seem to vary so much and all.


Benny's VTM Yip Man Ving Tsun series comes close to covering the early core--mileage will vary..Thanks for the heads up. I guess we did stray on to the issue of curriculum. Still, I don't think that really answers the OP: "show WC how it is "supposed" to be done".

[t_niehoff]

Do you teach?

No, I spend my time learning and trying to get better.

[YungChun]

Thanks for the heads up. I guess we did stray on to the issue of curriculum. Still, I don't think that really answers the OP: "show WC how it is "supposed" to be done".

Isn't that relative to the person doing it?

I mean there is the idea of the system... If you use that idea or the idea's subsets, along with WCK tools and actions then you have it.

If someone has a different idea of what WCK is then of course what they do will be different. I don't see a lot of agreement on what that is so what can "supposed" mean except within one school of thought or one type of training?

[CFT]

Isn't that relative to the person doing it?

I mean there is the idea of the system... If you use that idea or the idea's subsets, along with WCK tools and actions then you have it.

If someone has a different idea of what WCK is then of course what they do will be different. I don't see a lot of agreement on what that is so what can "supposed" mean except within one school of thought or one type of training?I know this will sound a bit repetitive ... but these DVDs will normally show forms + drills, maybe some semi-rehearsed applications not spontaneous examples under real pressure.

So even if the material is an accurate catalogue of the curriculum, are they organised in a way that it would represent a training progression?

[YungChun]

I know this will sound a bit repetitive ... but these DVDs will normally show forms + drills, maybe some semi-rehearsed applications not spontaneous examples under real pressure.

Which depicts part of the classical training, such as the forms; the punch/strikes; the pak sao drill; lop sao drill; dan chi sao, luk sao, etc...



So even if the material is an accurate catalogue of the curriculum, are they organised in a way that it would represent a training progression?

See above... That is the classical progression.. Sans hands-on feedback, supplementary examples, etc..

What are you looking for?

[CFT]

What are you looking for?The crock of gold at the end of the rainbow! :D

Something which isn't just going through the motions. Why you're doing what you're doing. How to perform the mechanics. What you should be feeling at what point.

A bit much to ask for a "hands-on" art, hence my 1st sentence.

[YungChun]

The crock of gold at the end of the rainbow! :D

Something which isn't just going through the motions. Why you're doing what you're doing. How to perform the mechanics. What you should be feeling at what point.

A bit much to ask for a "hands-on" art, hence my 1st sentence.

Where are you at now in the WCK training?

[sanjuro_ronin]

How many here have seen the videos from the Dog Brothers, whether the older |real contact stick fighting" or the newer ones?

[t_niehoff]

How many here have seen the videos from the Dog Brothers, whether the older |real contact stick fighting" or the newer ones?

I've seen them.

[Matrix]

No, I spend my time learning and trying to get better.Who teaches you?

[t_niehoff]

Who teaches you?

Application is my sifu.

[goju]

Application is my sifu.

thats an odd name for a teacher
:D

[Matrix]

Application is my sifu.
Sounds like an iPhone commercial.
"We have an app for that."

[t_niehoff]

Sounds like an iPhone commercial.
"We have an app for that."

It's the most important thing that I learned from Robert. It's the same as Morris' "the fight is your teacher". That's the road to functionality. If you don't fight as the core of your training, it can't be your teacher, and you can't make what you do functional.

[Matrix]

It's the most important thing that I learned from Robert. It's the same as Morris' "the fight is your teacher". That's the road to functionality. If you don't fight as the core of your training, it can't be your teacher, and you can't make what you do functional.I agree with this. No problem there.

Your original comment, however, referred to "people teaching". Since fighting isn't a person, I wanted to know if you were teaching or if someone was teaching you.
In either case, your original comment tells me that you believe that you and/or the person who is your sifu is a good fighter. It's what I have asserted in the past, inspite of your claims of mediocrity. Thanks for the clarification. :)

[Wayfaring]

Application is my sifu.

So in other words you're really really fond of these?
http://www.srcmedical.com/applicators.htm

[t_niehoff]

So in other words you're really really fond of these?
http://www.srcmedical.com/applicators.htm

ROFLOL! Application! Application! NOT applicators! :)