Why are we here?

[Sihing73]

Hello,

I just thought I would drop a note asking everyone to think about why they are here.

Are you here to discuss and learn about Wing Chun and to build a better understanding of the various methods available?

Or are you here to stroke your ego and try and convince everyone that your way is the way?

Sometimes we have threads which have the potential to develope into good discussions only to become sidetracked by those who seem to feel the need to promotoe their own agendas. In many instances a few posters will post the same mantra over and over again and derail otherwise productive discussions.

I would ask that anyone not having something to contribute to the discussion at hand show some self control and refrain from jumping in and trying to forward their own agenda.

Give it some thought and let others enjoy this forum and perhaps learn or at least be exposed to differing viewpoints.

[hunt1]

Once Sihing73 I was here to share and this was without a doubt the best forum available. Then you banned a great poster. Great because they challenged and provoked thought. This started the decline.

However when the WCML crowd moved here and brought with them all of their bickering and HFY this and HFY that nonsense and you did not ban these people the forum declined to a point where all we ever get is bickering and ego stroking. Now for me instead of a place to share it is just a place to get a chuckle.

[HumbleWCGuy]

I am here to discuss martial arts training, philosophy, history, and teaching strategies.

[JPinAZ]

Me too. And, I do train in HFY. So Hunt, does what I say fall into this "HFY this and HFY that nonsense" category? Not really sure what you are getting at with that, but sounds like you are only adding to the 'decline' of this forum by making those kinds of statements.

[Ultimatewingchun]

JP wasn't always so reasonable....he's gotten better through the years...LOL ;) :cool:

Who is this great poster you refer to, Hunt?

I'm here since 2002, so I will probably remember him....and would like to know who it is you refer to.

And I remember your posts form waaay back, and you were always a good contributor to the forum yourself, if I remember correctly.

[YungChun]

Then you banned a great poster.


Who was this?

Lots of 'challenge of ideas' still going on.. LOL

[Vajramusti]

Who was this?

Lots of 'challenge of ideas' still going on.. LOL
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Apparently I missed many of these "challenges". No problem- I visit less than I used to.It's not important in the scheme of things. Hunt 1 gave a good and honest opinion- but I don't think it will make much of a difference.

joy chaudhuri

[Sihing73]

Hello,

I would be interested in the identity of the mysterious "great poster" as well.

Am I to take it that you think I banned someone without a legitimate reason? If so I would be interested in learning more as you have never, to my recollection, brought this up to me before; there is always the PM venue and I always expressed my willingness to discuss matters even if I did not agree. In addition, there is always the option of going to Gene or Sandman2 if one does not agree with something.

This used to be a much more heavily moderated forum and IMHO, it was a better place then. However, the majority preferred less moderation and with that the downward spiral seems to have taken place. Just my opinion and not necessarily accurate but one pov in any case.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Here's some thoughts on "moderating", Dave...

It will call for some jugdement calls on your part, and you won't always be right - but nobody's perfect.

There are ways of saying things - and there are ways of saying things.

For example, I recently said something about a "ridiculous" wing chun punch being thrown from a distance that was too far away...in a vid of an mma fight that included a wing chun guy. It was his punch I was referring to.

The guy contacted me, and we had a phone discussion. Turns out the match in question was from 3 years ago, and he does now use some boxing type moves from certain distances, he told me...something I've been talking about for some time now.

And needless to say, many don't agree with me when I say that you enhance your wing chun game by using boxing type moves from certain distances.

But the point is this: the use of the word "ridiculous" can be taken to be a personal insult, and the guy had a point in contacting me to say that we wing chun guys need to stick together since so many people in the mma world, for example, have nothing but contempt for wing chun....

and for me to use such a word is counter-productive to wing chun as a whole.

He's got a point.

And as I think back to why I used that word....I remember thinking that it was Knifefighter who started the thread and he was using this guy's fight as an example of good wing chun (albeit in an mma setting that included grappling)...

and as I thought about it...I began to realize that I used such a word as a reaction to so many of Knifefighter's posts through the years that have degraded wing chun enormously...and when I saw an example of what he thought was good wing chun - and realizing that the reason the guy had to defend a shoot immediately was because he led with a wing chun punch from too far away - which left him open to a shoot....

I realized that my strong "language" was a shot at Knifefighter - and his lack of knowledge/experience with wing chun strategies and techniques that work...and in so doing, a wing chun guy who has real fighting skills, is in excellent shape, and has the guts to try and get into the UFC....feels slighted by my remarks.

I'M JUST USING THIS AS AN EXAMPLE OF WHAT I'M ABOUT TO GET AT....

It will take more work on your part, and some people might not like it, but my suggestion is this:

When you see a post that's questionable because it's too insulting in some way...contact the poster, and tell him to find a better way to express his point about this or that...because this or that word, phrase, sentence, paragragh is too insulting...

and if he refuses to modify his post somewhat (you tell him)....you will be forced to delete his post entirely.

So for example, you could have contacted me to say that I should try to make my point without using a word like "ridiculous"...that I could make the same exact point without such a word...and I could have edited my post to say something like this:

"Kudos to the guy for doing mma, he looks like he's in good shape (things I did, in fact, say)....

"Kudos to the guy for doing mma, he's in good shape, but I think the reason why he had to defend a shoot so often was because he was throwing short range wing chun punches from too far away."

I legitimate "criticism" (at least from my point of view)...but one that is not meant to be insulting, and probably wouldn't (or shouldn't) be taken as an insult - because I chose my words carefully.

People might disagree with my assessment, and a debate/argument might ensue.

But at least personal insults would be left out if it - or words that can easily be taken as a personal attack.

More work and more "guidelines" to be enforced on your part...but perhaps the end result would be more interesting discussions and debates....and less hijacking of threads by trolls, jerks who just get off on being nasty, and know-it-alls that keep other people from wanting to participate.

[SAAMAG]

I'd say to focalize on the ones that CONSISTENTLY and BLATENTLY cause arguments in every thread that they're in. It's obvious who those people are.

I've been on this forum (off and on) for a looong time. I "know" people on here from past interactions that were quite rewarding. All the conversations were about learning and discussing things wing chun.

Now I don't mind talk of MMA mind you, as I am a fan of watching it, and I have always trained in other arts in addition to wing chun. But if the poster's only agenda is to prove their way is better than that's another thing to address for moderation.

The key is that a one time a-hole thing is normal, even a two time a-hole thing may be normal as well...but when someone is consistently rocking the boat so to speak...then its obvious that person is the problem.

[hunt1]

Dave don"t you have a list of who has been banned? It was several years ago. I am not sure of the persons screen name anymore. Cant' be many banned folks. The name related to wing chun but I am old and my memory has slipped. As for the reason the person was banned I did not think the person should have been banned but you are the mod and its your call. I am sure at the tile I said so on the forum but I am sure many were in favor or it wouldn.t have come down to banning.

Jp not you per se but there was a time on the WCML and then here when it seemed that the whole WCML moved here that there were constant arguments about HFY. Was it legit? Did GG make it up? Was it stolen from TWC etc etc. VTM members were at the fore front of once side and no doubt you know who was leading the charge on the other side.

From my POV when the experts and know it all's from the WCML moved here this forum lost a great deal. Sure people disagreed but it was never personal. I could have a heated discussion with a person in one thread and have total agreement with them on another with no hard feelings and I learned a'lot in the bargain.

[duende]

From my POV when the experts and know it all's from the WCML moved here this forum lost a great deal. Sure people disagreed but it was never personal. I could have a heated discussion with a person in one thread and have total agreement with them on another with no hard feelings and I learned a'lot in the bargain.

Hunt1,

For the record, I must say I've always had an admiration for your posts. The wisdom in this last post here once again shows why.

Best to you.

[TAYLOR1]

Hunt1,

I train HFY. I haven't been around for as long as some others but I see the many posts that get derailed. However, when personal insults begin, things get heated. Some posters don't care about respect or carrying on a conversation.

I would agree some post only to get a reaction. Some profess their personal experience should lead the way for ALL WC and they tend to get upset when others don't follow. Everyone chooses his his own path.

[t_niehoff]

Hello,

I just thought I would drop a note asking everyone to think about why they are here.

Are you here to discuss and learn about Wing Chun and to build a better understanding of the various methods available?

Or are you here to stroke your ego and try and convince everyone that your way is the way?


For myself, I see argument as a way of learning, of exploring and determining the validity of our ideas, of examining the evidentiary and logical basis for our views.

Having our ideas challenged, criticized, dissected is a GOOD, positive thing. It's like sparring, you want to put yourself in a situation of getting hit, subbed, etc. since that's how you learn. You have to constantly take yourself outside of your comfort zone, both intellectually and physically. When people don't want to do that and don't like it, I think it tells you something.



Sometimes we have threads which have the potential to develope into good discussions only to become sidetracked by those who seem to feel the need to promotoe their own agendas. In many instances a few posters will post the same mantra over and over again and derail otherwise productive discussions.


And, what you may call a "productive" or "good discussion" someone else may call something else.



I would ask that anyone not having something to contribute to the discussion at hand show some self control and refrain from jumping in and trying to forward their own agenda.

Give it some thought and let others enjoy this forum and perhaps learn or at least be exposed to differing viewpoints.

That's a fine idea, and maybe another idea is the realization that conversation and argument, like dancing, takes two persons.

[t_niehoff]

However when the WCML crowd moved here and brought with them all of their bickering and HFY this and HFY that nonsense and you did not ban these people the forum declined to a point where all we ever get is bickering and ego stroking. Now for me instead of a place to share it is just a place to get a chuckle.

Personally, I really like and enjoy discussions with the HFY people.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Here is the issue.
This is a MA forum and this forum in particular is about WC.
People come here to discuss WC and how THEY view WC.
Its not about right or wrong as much as "my way, your way, they way I was taught" etc.
People need to realize that someone doing something different doesn't mean they are right and you are wrong, it means they are doing something different.
It doesn't matter what ANYONE else has done or is doing, it matters what WE can do.
Many arguments start when our precsious bubble is under attack and someone dares to say "prove it", or "show me" and as MA that shouldn't happen because MA is ALL in the DOING and very little in the saying/writing.
Yes, it is NOT necessary for every thread to degrade to the point of "MMA vs WC", but the fact is, at this stage right now, MMA is what ALL other MA are compared to.
Don't like?
Make a statement like the MA of yesteryears did, Fight to prove you are right.

Most of us are very content to exchange POV about WC or any other MA we have experience in, without trying to convert the masses to any particular MA.

In the end we are all victims of our experiences and upbring in out chosen MA(s) and as such we have all inherent biasis in favour of what we prefer to do and that is OK, we just have to acknowledge it.

My only true issue on this forum and any other is those that DON'T "prove" any of their assertions.

[hunt1]

Sihing73 could the name I am looking for be WhippingHand? The whip has not been seen for ages. Sorry about the old memory. Vic, Duende thanks.

JP after rereading I understand what you are saying. I wasn't saying anything about HFY just pointing out that the HFY discussions from 5 or 6 years ago or so was the most egregious example of what I was referring too. May have been even further back than that. Again the time when negative forum developed is when the most vocal WCML folks migrated here.

Those who were not here before that time sadly can't relate to what I am saying those that were know exactly what I am talking about.

[hunt1]

TN doing something that is enjoyable for you, indulges your basic nature and fills your psychological needs does not mean it is at all enjoyable or productive for others and is selfish. While I agree with many things you say I do not agree with your absolutist way of doing so.

For example I do not agree with Vic as to the need of adding boxing to WC for long range effectiveness. My experience is different however that does not make me right and Vic wrong. If I had his experience and knowledge I may have come to the same opinion as he holds.

You accuse Vic of training with scrubs. Unless you have trained with them how can you know. Perhaps you train with scrubs and his lowest partner could wipe the floor with everyone you know. Your exp does not make Vic or anyone else wrong. Their exp is equally valid.

[duende]

Sihing73 could the name I am looking for be WhippingHand? The whip has not been seen for ages. Sorry about the old memory. Vic, Duende thanks.


I thoght you might of been talking about Whippinghand! I enjoyed his posts too!

[kfson]

I've noticed some people are here to get other's goats. In a way, this is justifiable because it exposes one of "your" martial art's weakness. If you can master the "Goat Getter" technique, you are miles ahead.

[Ultimatewingchun]

And if we can ignore it...it's even better.

[Vajramusti]

I thoght you might of been talking about Whippinghand! I enjoyed his posts too!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Me too!

joy chaudhuri

[Vajramusti]

Here is the issue.

(Let's see..ok?))

This is a MA forum and this forum in particular is about WC.

(True dat)

People come here to discuss WC and how THEY view WC.

(Some apparently do some apparently don't)

Its not about right or wrong as much as "my way, your way, they way I was taught" etc.
People need to realize that someone doing something different doesn't mean they are right and you are wrong, it means they are doing something different.
It doesn't matter what ANYONE else has done or is doing, it matters what WE can do.

(True dat)

Many arguments start when our precsious bubble is under attack and someone dares to say "prove it", or "show me" and as MA that shouldn't happen because MA is ALL in the DOING and very little in the saying/writing.

((There is no "doing" on a forum. There can be different venues where things are "done"))

Yes, it is NOT necessary for every thread to degrade to the point of "MMA vs WC", but the fact is, at this stage right now, MMA is what ALL other MA are compared to.

((Depends- by whom, where and when and to whom))

Don't like?
Make a statement like the MA of yesteryears did, Fight to prove you are right.

(Fighting ona forum? just words here. Make a statement? Sure---just dont repeat put downs again and again-gets botinng and becomes noise fast)

Most of us are very content to exchange POV about WC or any other MA we have experience in, without trying to convert the masses to any particular MA.

((Actually there is less exchange- more self adulation))

In the end we are all victims of our experiences and upbring in out chosen MA(s) and as such we have all inherent biasis in favour of what we prefer to do and that is OK, we just have to acknowledge it.

(This ain't a confessional booth))

My only true issue on this forum and any other is those that DON'T "prove" any of their assertions.

((Prove in a written forum?))

((I don't suggest banning anyone. I do suggest moderator(s) 1. cut out posts with purely personal attacks 2. from time to tome suggest brevity and clarify and avoid repetition 3. and keep posts wc related or comparisons involving wc and point to other forums on mma, street fighting, other arts, the general forum etc. People sign in and sign out on this forum- it's a traveling caravan-keep the traffic basically moving- censorship is NOT a big issue as Master Killer pointed out- this ain't a democracy))

joy chaudhuri

[YungChun]

One of the ways these problems were handled at another forum was to set a policy of tell us what you do.. Which means essentially not to tell anyone what they do suks, is BS, etc.. So folks could say, well instead of that we do this..

Pretty simple--any derogatory commentary was deleted...or if repeated banning could ensue..

[sanjuro_ronin]

((Prove in a written forum?))

((I don't suggest banning anyone. I do suggest moderator(s) 1. cut out posts with purely personal attacks 2. from time to tome suggest brevity and clarify and avoid repetition 3. and keep posts wc related or comparisons involving wc and point to other forums on mma, street fighting, other arts, the general forum etc. People sign in and sign out on this forum- it's a traveling caravan-keep the traffic basically moving- censorship is NOT a big issue as Master Killer pointed out- this ain't a democracy))

joy chaudhuri

Thanks for your views on my post Joy.
In the southern forum, where I moderate, I do just that.
Any PERSONAL attacks are deleted and posters are warned, but that is MY moderating style and not every ones.
I will sometimes remove PARTS of a post and leave the others intact because we can all make a point without calling someone an idiot, or whatnot.
Of course one can just IGNORE the posters that one feels contribute NOTHING to the discussion.

[t_niehoff]

One of the ways these problems were handled at another forum was to set a policy of tell us what you do.. Which means essentially not to tell anyone what they do suks, is BS, etc.. So folks could say, well instead of that we do this..

Pretty simple--any derogatory commentary was deleted...or if repeated banning could ensue..

Oh, boy. So, what you have is a forum where people can put out any sort of nonsense with the assuarance that no one can say anything negative about it. Nothing but group hugs all around. I can see why certain people (pussies?) might really welcome that.

[YungChun]

Right.. It's not enough to tell folks how and what you think good training is, you need to tell them they suk too... Otherwise what's the fun, right?

Some would say tossing insults from behind the safety of your PC, never putting up, etc, would make one even more of a ***** cat...

If it was up to me I would simply remove any insults or insulting remarks..and warn the poster, then if I had to work too hard deleting I'd ban them...

[Wayfaring]

I think you could go a long way with light moderation. Remove simply direct attack offensive words or modify posts reported. Close threads if they degrade.

The argument back and forth provides a little bit of reality to discussion. Heavily moderated sites like MAP are a snoozefest. Unmoderated sites degrade in content value and have too high of a static to content ratio. A good moderate balance is the goal IMO.

Also to be considered is the fact that in general people have much less of a sense of humor on this forum than most of the other forums (like the ones with MasterKiller + adjacent jabeeps).

[Wayfaring]

Oh, boy. So, what you have is a forum where people can put out any sort of nonsense with the assuarance that no one can say anything negative about it. Nothing but group hugs all around. I can see why certain people (pussies?) might really welcome that.

don't worry t. the danger of someone wanting to hug you is extremely low.

[anerlich]

So, what you have is a forum where people can put out any sort of nonsense with the assuarance that no one can say anything negative about it.

Don't worry, T, there will undoubtedly continue to be plenty of non-pussies to say negative things about your nonsense.

[t_niehoff]

See, now THAT's what I'm talkin' 'bout. :)

[YungChun]

That's funny...:D

[JPinAZ]

JP wasn't always so reasonable....he's gotten better through the years...LOL ;) :cool:

Oh yeah? Up yours! ;)


JP after rereading I understand what you are saying. I wasn't saying anything about HFY just pointing out that the HFY discussions from 5 or 6 years ago or so was the most egregious example of what I was referring too. May have been even further back than that. Again the time when negative forum developed is when the most vocal WCML folks migrated here.

hey, no worries!
I was part of some of the more 'interesting' HFY-related discussions here too (probably not the early ones you speak of). Some of them with Victor I quoted above. Even if we had differing views, I personally hold no grudges. And yeah, some of those threads got heated. But it's all just talk really, and even the more 'colorful' threads still have a lot of good information and views in them.
Besides that, I'm just one guy representing my own views based on my own experience. And, I surely am not 'HFY', just a guy who studies it, if you get where I'm coming from :)

(BTW, I also like your posts here)

[Sihing73]

Hello,

It may have been WhippingHand who is being referred to as having been banned. I do not recall the specifics, but I do know that they were given ample opportunity to change and banning was a last resort. Also, the decision was not soley mine although I did feel it was approriate at the time. Again, I do not recall the specifics.

I usually try to contact members and bring things to their attention and give a chance to change or present their pov prior to taking action. Sometimes this works and sometimes it does not.

Also, as I do not have the luxury of posting here all of the time nor do I have the time to devote to the forum as much time as I may like, I depend a lot on members contacting me with concerns or complaints regarding posting. Sometimes I concur that there is an issue and other times I do not, the member is always welcome to contact me directly to discuss or go to Gene or Sandman2 if they like.

To be honest, I rarely even have time to read through the majority of posts here anymore. Again, unless something is blatant or brought to my attention it may slip by for a bit. The alternative is to crack down harder and make everything adhere to a more stringent set of parameters but of course not everyone would be happy with that approach either.

Bottom line is that not everyone will be happy no matter what happens. Also, many times people complain because something upsets them but when looked at as a whole the post may not be that offensive as a whole to most here.

FWIW, I do think we have some very knowledgeable and skilled people here with lots to share. And while T is right in stating that not agreeing with someone can lead to a more fruitful discussion, the approach of my way is the only way and all others suck is rarely of benefit to anyone, IMHO.

[Vajramusti]

Dave- I appreciate your time and it.s a thankless task. But your written statement sounds very much like the status quo. Of course, I could be wrong.

Good wishes and bye for now.

joy chaudhuri

[weakstudent]

well when i first came here its was for wing chun knowledge from people who been doing it longer than me. but recently its becoming my favorite soap opera. with all the back and forth. so now its getting harder for a newbe like me to get those golden nuggets from you guys.

just how i feel.

[YungChun]

well when i first came here its was for wing chun knowledge from people who been doing it longer than me. but recently its becoming my favorite soap opera. with all the back and forth. so now its getting harder for a newbe like me to get those golden nuggets from you guys.

just how i feel.

Be happy to share what I can.. Come on over. I live 20minutes away in New Rochelle... :)

[weakstudent]

Be happy to share what I can.. Come on over. I live 20minutes away in New Rochelle... :)

really man thats great. but it snowing like crazy LOL. but thanks im always looking to get better. and i was told that the only way to get good at wing chun is to do it.
i will try to meet up with you soon as the weather is better.

[YungChun]

No prob...

Always looking for new workout buddies... Just PM or email me..

[weakstudent]

thanks will do

[SAAMAG]

well when i first came here its was for wing chun knowledge from people who been doing it longer than me. but recently its becoming my favorite soap opera. with all the back and forth. so now its getting harder for a newbe like me to get those golden nuggets from you guys.

just how i feel.

That's what I was worried about when I posted before asking how people think new people to the forum would perceive things.

Its unfortunate...because when I got on the forum back at the turn of the century, I was looking for the same thing and actually got it. Today...not so much.

[sanjuro_ronin]

well when i first came here its was for wing chun knowledge from people who been doing it longer than me. but recently its becoming my favorite soap opera. with all the back and forth. so now its getting harder for a newbe like me to get those golden nuggets from you guys.

just how i feel.

This merits its own thread.

[YungChun]

Most golden nuggets are to be had from actual training.

Once in a while you can get some from the Net.

Actually I think there is a lot of good info here from very different POVs..

[SAAMAG]

I think so. I mean you of course will learn your martial art from hands on training and application. But you can understand your art and perhaps an even broader perspective of martial arts through discussion.

Like Sanjuro...if I'm not physically training, I'm usually talking about it, reading about it, watching it, studying it, etc. There is value in all forms of learning about the martial arts...including discussion on the net.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Most golden nuggets are to be had from actual training.

Once in a while you can get some from the Net.

Actually I think there is a lot of good info here from very different POVs..

and that is the point of sharing and decent debate and discussion, for all of us to learn and better ourselves.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think so. I mean you of course will learn your martial art from hands on training and application. But you can understand your art and perhaps an even broader perspective of martial arts through discussion.

Like Sanjuro...if I'm not physically training, I'm usually talking about it, reading about it, watching it, studying it, etc. Like Sanjuro...if I'm not physically training, I'm usually talking about it, reading about it, watching it, studying it, etc. There is value in all forms of learning about the martial arts...including discussion on the net.

We live in an awesome age my friend, where information that not to long ago was guarded and kept secret.
We share it openly for the betterment of us all.
To not take advantage of this or worse, make light of this amazing opportunity, doesn't say much about ones intellect.

[YungChun]

To not take advantage of this or worse, make light of this amazing opportunity, doesn't say much about ones intellect.

In most cases, but I think this is more true for some things than others.. For the purposes of learning WCK I have my doubts that anything on the net is going to make or break that process.. I do agree there is some good info on the net.. But on this subject minimally so compared to lots of other subject matter where information is more clearly defined, useful and verifiable.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Joy, Van, weakstudent, sanjuro...are all correct.

We need to be giving out wing chun (as we, individually see it)....not just because it helps us collect our thoughts...but it's very helpful to newbies seeking information from people with lots of wing chun experience.

But if thread-after-thread gets hijacked by a very accomplished martial artist in his own right but someone who nonetheless pretends to know waaaay more about wing chun than he actually does - and another guy who no one around here has ever seen anything about what he can do...but also pretends to know waaay more than he actually does (as is obvious by his posts - since he can't hide everything about himself - and he clearly has no real grasp of what's really possible with high level wing chun)...and who, like the other guy, goes out of his way to insult what other people do with the same old repetitive mantras over-and-over....

the whole forum, in effect, gets hijacked.

We need more moderation, Dave....I agree 100% with Joy/Vajramusti about this.

It's the newbies who will suffer the most if the situation is not corrected. They will give up on this forum very quickly, and a lot of older guys (who used to post regularly) will also stay away. Why should they bother to be here?

[SAAMAG]

We need more moderation, Dave....I agree 100% with Joy/Vajramusti about this.

It's the newbies who will suffer the most if the situation is not corrected. They will give up on this forum very quickly, and alot of older guys (who used to post regularly) will also stay away. Why should they bother to be here?

Agreed. I'd also say that the long term and more valuable folks (like Joy, Victor, Phil, Rene, Robert, and the like) should have more weight in the decision on this.

We've got people with 2000+ posts and nothing of value was contributed.

[sanjuro_ronin]

In most cases, but I think this is more true for some things than others.. For the purposes of learning WCK I have my doubts that anything on the net is going to make or break that process.. I do agree there is some good info on the net.. But on this subject minimally so compared to lots of other subject matter where information is more clearly defined, useful and verifiable.

I would argue that the reason some subjects are more defined, useful and verifibale is because more people of experience have weighed in on them.

[YungChun]

I would argue that the reason some subjects are more defined, useful and verifibale is because more people of experience have weighed in on them.

I would argue that it's like zebras and ducks--meaning like totally different animals..

For example, one of my other hobbies is building model planes and helicopters, which I fly... Now building these things is very involved... it normally would take years and years for folks to learn how to do it and all the tricks involved.. But now with the internet you can ask folks questions and often times folks will present a step by step build of certain planes.. Wow it's great and you can follow along step by step and build your plane like an expert..

On the other hand flying is another story.. It takes a long time for example to learn how to fly collective pitch helicopters... And there is very little anyone on the net can do no matter how well they can fly to help you to get better at flying....

Finally WCK is even worse.. There is no clear example of exactly what it is, folks will argue all day long... And if you can't even tell what it is because of all the different opinions then how in God's name is anyone going to help you get better at it over the net? The signal to noise ratio is absolutely insane..

Now if you can find someone or some people with real and correct WCK experience who also have lots of experience using it in real fighting venues and are willing and able to show us all step by step what they do well then be my guest. I'll be all ears although I'm not sure how much it would help.

But until then I am happy to listen to all the noise and use my own experience to filter out the BS...

[chusauli]

I grew up in NYC and have known the Chinatown Chinese Martial arts community since I was a kid. Many of the people here I have known for a long time. This forum is a good place to catch up with some of the folks.

Even though I've been in Los Angeles for 22 years now, I still look at myself connected with NYC Chinatown and the martial arts scene. I also come back twice annually to teach Master Tung's Acupuncture and other forms of acupuncture not local to NYC.

As a Chinese Medicine practitioner, I see suffering everyday - cancer, tumors, Parkinson's, diabetes, metabolic disorders, emotional problems, pain, orthopedic problems, grief, sadness...the list goes on and there is no limit to human suffering.
I see ugly, suffering, sadness all the time - so I come here and want to see some beauty - people working things out, developing friendship, having insights, understanding creation/development of the art, and other positive things. I may not see much of that here daily, but I don't have any expectations. Sometimes I get a little surprised.

Life is short, we are today's WCK. This is just a communication forum for us to start communications, and its a way we can grow.

[t_niehoff]

Finally WCK is even worse.. There is no clear example of exactly what it is, folks will argue all day long... And if you can't even tell what it is because of all the different opinions then how in God's name is anyone going to help you get better at it over the net? The signal to noise ratio is absolutely insane..

Now if you can find someone or some people with real and correct WCK experience who also have lots of experience using it in real fighting venues and are willing and able to show us all step by step what they do well then be my guest. I'll be all ears although I'm not sure how much it would help.

But until then I am happy to listen to all the noise and use my own experience to filter out the BS...

As I see it, the problem with questions like "how do you do WCK" or "what WCK really is", etc. and why they lead to all kinds of opinions boil down IME (1) to mistaking the curriculum for the subject matter and (2) not looking at things from a skill-based perspective (but rather from a concept-based perspective). When you stop doing that, lots of things fall into place.

People need to realize that the forms, drills, dummy, etc. is NOT WCK. That is the curriculum of WCK, it is what teaches you the various elements, movements, etc. But it is NOT WCK. So when you see the forms, the drills, the dummy, you are NOT SEEING WCK, you are only seeing people demonstrate the curriculum. The textbook is not the subject matter. The curriculum teaches you the moves of the game, but it is not the game itself. The curriculum doesn't and can't teach you to play the game.

WCK can only be seen in fighting -- because WCK is PLAYING THE GAME (fighting with your WCK tools). This is the same for boxing ( boxing is using your boxing tools in fighting) or wrestling (wrestling is using your wrestling tools in fighting) or BJJ or any fighting art.

A critical aspect of that is that you can only learn to play the game and develop skill at playing the game by playing the game. You must do that yourself. You NEED to work it out for yourself by doing it. It isn't a matter of being shown, let alone step-by-step, or being told how to do it. No one can show you and no one can tell you. Only YOU can work it out for yourself by playing the game. If a person won't do that work, they will never get it. Never. All fighters do that WORK. Your skill level playing the game (fighting) will be determined by the amount of quality sparring (playing the game) that you do. Period. The quality of your sparring is determined by the intensity, the skill level of the opposition, etc.

I agree with you that most of what you hear is noise and nonsense -- it is people who either never play the game or aren't very good at playing the game telling others how they should play the game. It is the blind leading the blind. The so-called "concepts of WCK" are only the ideas pertaining to WCK of some person -- their individual conceptualization (opr interpretation of some term). How good or useful are those? It depends. The level of anyone's understanding (conceptualization) depends on their skill level. Can someone who doesn't play the game or plays it poorly tell others how to do it well? If you adhere to the "concepts" of poor players, it will only make things more difficult for you. The answer to most questions of application is "go play the game and see." In other words, the answer to questions of application (how should I play the game?) is application (go play the game and see).

That's why Robert's "let application (fighting) be your sifu" or Yip Man's "Go out and test it for yoruself, I may be tricking you" is so critical. You let the fight tell you what is right or wrong FOR YOU. No one else can do that for you. You don't do it because it is dogma or a concept (ususally the dogma or concept of a nonplayer), you do it because you tried it in quality sparring (the game) and it works for you.

Now, this is not to say that you can do anything you want and call it WCK (as some do). Rather, you take the WCK tools (not concepts) as you have learned them and practiced them and put them to work in fighting. If you are not using the WCK tools (the movements, the actions) in your fighting, then you are not doing WCK.

As far as looking to others: If you find someone who has done that work themselves, they can help you -- not by showing you how to do it or telling you how to do it but by helping you to do the work yourself. They can play the game with you. If you can't find someone who has done the work themselves, then it is up to you to do it without help.

[t_niehoff]

Joy, Van, weakstudent, sanjuro...are all correct.

We need to be giving out wing chun (as we, individually see it)....not just because it helps us collect our thoughts...but it's very helpful to newbies seeking information from people with lots of wing chun experience.


I have no problem with anyone expressing their views of WCK.



But if thread-after-thread gets hijacked by a very accomplished martial artist in his own right but someone who nonetheless pretends to know waaaay more about wing chun than he actually does


Dale doesn't pretend to know"way more" than he does-- he is very up-front about his WCK training. What you don't like is that he has a great deal of fighting experience that he brings to discussions which conflict with various persons' WCK theories --including yours. For anyone interested in actually doing (fighting with their) WCK, that perspective is very useful.



- and another guy who no one around here has ever seen anything about what he can do...but also pretends to know waaay more than he actually does (as is obvious by his posts - since he can't hide everything about himself - and he clearly has no real grasp of what's really possible with high level wing chun)...and who, like the other guy, goes out of his way to insult what other people do with the same old repetitive mantras over-and-over....


As I have said, Victor, there are some persons on this forum who have met me, and even trained a bit with me - Robert, Dave McKinnon, Rene, for example. I've been practicing WCK since 1982 (God, am I getting old!). I've seen most of the "big boys", including Cheung. You talk about "what is really possible with high level wing chun" -- well, why don't you show the world? Is Cheung's fight Boztepe a good example of that?

What you don't like is that people like me and Dale KNOW that you are full of sh1t and we say so. You don't like it that we call you on your claims ("what is really possible with high level wing chun") and point out that your idols have clay feet.



the whole forum, in effect, gets hijacked.


What you really mean is that you can't just come here and play WCK authority -- that you don't like having your claims questioned, being asked for evidence to support your views, etc. How awful for you.



We need more moderation, Dave....I agree 100% with Joy/Vajramusti about this.

It's the newbies who will suffer the most if the situation is not corrected. They will give up on this forum very quickly, and a lot of older guys (who used to post regularly) will also stay away. Why should they bother to be here?

So what you want is for the mods to step in and let you play WCK authority to your hearts content -- and you have the audacity to argue that you are really only doing this for the poor newbies (aren't you sweet?), as they are being deprived of your WCK wisdom!

[Ultimatewingchun]

***THIS POST Terence gets called out about the fact that he tries to hijack thread-after-thread to pontificate about wing chun and criticize everything and everyone....and with no real understanding of what can be done with high level wing chun.

AND IF HE CAN'T DO IT - THEN NOBODY CAN.

Keep that in mind whenever you read his posts - because that's the underlying
PERSONAL MOTIVATION for all his criticisms - that's the key to understanding Terence Niehoff.

And therefore he's is willing to say...and has said dozens of times...that there are NO authorities in wing chun....a bull5hit rationale for wanting to continue criticizing everyone, including people like Yip Man, William Cheung, Wong Shun Leung, Garrett Gee, Augustine Fong, Gary Lam, Moy Yat, Duncan Leung....this one...that one....you name the person....and he'll probably have a post somewhere ripping into them.

Enough-is-enough with this crap, Dave....

guys like this allow their personal jealousies and insecurities to ruin the forum....because he will never stop posting HUNDREDS-UPON-HUNDREDS of posts trying to hide the truth about himself behind the facade of being a legitimate critic.

When will it stop?

When the amount of posts per week/month by other people dwindles down to basically nothing - compared to what it used to be years ago?

And then guys like Terence will get bored and go away? Is that what we have to look forward to?

[Phil Redmond]

really man thats great. but it snowing like crazy LOL. but thanks im always looking to get better. and i was told that the only way to get good at wing chun is to do it.
i will try to meet up with you soon as the weather is better.
I'm at 64 E. 4th St. 4th Fl. every Sat from 3:30 - 5:30pm. I plan on starting a week day class this spring. I welcome anyone to stop by.

[YungChun]

As I see it, the problem with questions like "how do you do WCK" or "what WCK really is", etc. and why they lead to all kinds of opinions boil down IME (1) to mistaking the curriculum for the subject matter and (2) not looking at things from a skill-based perspective (but rather from a concept-based perspective). When you stop doing that, lots of things fall into place.


Yes we know how you see it Terence, your life's work posting here tells the tale..

WCK is an idea, a strategy with tactics, etc, it's a way to fight and a way to train--a system...

You or I or anyone can take an idea or strategy and apply that idea in training and fighting.. That's what being a hom0sapien is all about, we come up with an idea and then apply that idea, which in turn allows us to evaluate the idea and then reapply, test it, it's cyclic. This process evolves in both action and thought, thought and intent drives training and action. You seem to want to separate the two, but they are parts of the whole of what we are...

If the idea/method you have is vastly different from the idea/method I have then there isn't a hell of a lot to talk about re WCK because we are each going in different directions..... Although, it's not really clear what you do even thought you do love to advocate a particular emphasis.. If you really want to sell it then show it. If you don't want to sell it then don't.

I agree with 80% of what you write, even though you write it over and over and over and over. I am actually glad you do that part of it because otherwise I and others would have to. I see a lot of stuff here and elsewhere I don't agree with.. And there is very little 'new' stuff as far as WCK information goes, but there is a lot of contradiction and you are no exception: "You have to be able to do it, otherwise you can't understand, but anyone can teach it, yet teach it could mean 1st grade level, but then the curriculum is much different than the actual use, so the curriculum is no good, but that is how you teach it, and the curriculum is actually just informational so really no skill is required to teach it, but the blind are leading the blind because they can't do it and don't know, and any ideas/metaphors are useless", but you do follow the faat, except when you don't, and on and on... Good grief..

I would love to learn something new on the Net but alas I have heard most of it all before. Still, here and there some new spins can help one refine their focus in certain areas...

I do disagree that bashing is key to useful communication/debate.. You often disqualify people's thoughts just based on use of certain language or ideas, because folks think differently than you do, the epitome of ethnocentrism and narrow mindedness. This is especially so when dealing with an Eastern art from another culture and then trying to cookie cut verbal explanations with a Western/Terence mold . A more sensible approach would be to get clarification and/or observe results and critique that instead of the language. I also think that it is quite possible and perhaps more reasonable to disagree and post your opinions without flaming, insulting and generally being a troll, a method that would normally get you booted from most fora.

[k gledhill]

Terence you throw the word 'fantasy' around like you have exclusivity on 'real' :D

You dont. ;)

And saying you started in '82 makes me chuckle...only adds to the joke you are here.

You have never had a bare knuckle fight outside the safe zone blanket of your gym, gloved and geared up self...have you ? I know you wont answer, except with a mantra safety generalization lawyers throw out as courtroom banter. Using prepared verse repeatedly, because it has a generalized safety net for your position on the topic at hand. Nobody will argue with it. BUT its ignored when redirected at YOU....you suddenly go into the "its not me we are discussing " blah blah BBBBBBB Bullsh*t

Your afraid....your hiding. there is nothing to fear dude but fear itself.

I'm here to read others ideas and share my own ideas and experiences, I have met and done hands on with guys from here, still waiting to meet Redmond Sifu after his invitation.

A lot of guys , beginning students , haven't had a real fight using VT...so I share 1st hand experiences to HELP others figure it out...no lead legs and tan sao doesnt leave the line laterally :D

You seem to have an agenda , not openly but its there nonetheless....:D Somewhere there is a book or DVD involved :D

If I can help guys to improve their own understanding of the jumble out there some call VT, then all the better....If I read something from others and it makes me ask and find answers to my own questions then I have gained from being here too.

Why you seem to be the main guy responding negatively is ??? you afraid of me ? afraid your agenda is being assailed ? I dont have a book [ cant write or punctuate !] or a DVD series....so why worry ?

.sounds like ego issues.

:D

[weakstudent]

I'm at 64 E. 4th St. 4th Fl. every Sat from 3:30 - 5:30pm. I plan on starting a week day class this spring. I welcome anyone to stop by.

thanks Sifu Redmond

[JPinAZ]

Actually, if one has been folowing what T says throughout the years, the only WC people that T thinks have 'functional WC' are really Robert, Dave M, Alan Orr and his guys and probably himself (but we all know what joke that is).
Not to start a lineage war because I'm only talking about T, but it's funny, they are only CSL (Chu Sau Lei ) guys that he points to for having functional WC.

He has cut down every other WCK person, org, etc at one time or another, either very directly by name, or indirectly with his "99% of wck guys can't [fill in the blank]..". He couldn't make his WCK work after how many years?? :eek: So no one else but his guys can??
It's clear he's moved on to looking for others for answers he couldn't find in his WC - good for him. But that doesn't mean EVERY other person studying WC has the same problem as he has repeatedly said and implied. (and if you ask him to name those that he thinks have functional WCK or the 'real WC' besides his guys, he won't. Too much to lose)

The issue arises when he tries to project his less-than-mediocraty onto the rest of us and cut down and insult everyone not affiliated with CSL in the process. Think I'm joking? Go back through his hundreds if not thousands of posts... This isn't productive, it's negative and trolling in every sense. His only motive for being here is to put down every WC practitioner besides his own guys adn drag down every thread with his repeated trolling. What purpose does that serve?

[weakstudent]

what is CLS? sorry im a newbie to wingchun.

[Wayfaring]

what is CLS? sorry im a newbie to wingchun.

It's a typo - for CSL. Which stands for Chu Sau Lei - (not sure if I spelled that right). But basically students of sifu Robert Chu.

[weakstudent]

oh ok thanks for that now robert chu who is his sifu, just trying to get caught up

[weakstudent]

nevermind just google him. got my answers

[HumbleWCGuy]

what is CLS? sorry im a newbie to wingchun.

A lot of has to do with how much you pay attention to the ridiculous back and forth between lineages too.

[t_niehoff]

Terence you throw the word 'fantasy' around like you have exclusivity on 'real' :D

You dont. ;)

And saying you started in '82 makes me chuckle...only adds to the joke you are here.


What has when you "started" got to do with anything?



You have never had a bare knuckle fight outside the safe zone blanket of your gym, gloved and geared up self...have you ? I know you wont answer, except with a mantra safety generalization lawyers throw out as courtroom banter. Using prepared verse repeatedly, because it has a generalized safety net for your position on the topic at hand. Nobody will argue with it. BUT its ignored when redirected at YOU....you suddenly go into the "its not me we are discussing " blah blah BBBBBBB Bullsh*t


Phil, I've been charged and acquitted (after a jury trial) of felony assualt (causing serious injury)for a "bare-knuckle" fight with off-duty cops -- plural. Is that REAL enough? LOL! You guys and your fantasies.



Your afraid....your hiding. there is nothing to fear dude but fear itself.

I'm here to read others ideas and share my own ideas and experiences, I have met and done hands on with guys from here, still waiting to meet Redmond Sifu after his invitation.


Oh, you mean where you told me that you wanted to fight me AND you wanted me to make the effort to travel visit you? Yeah, I remember that. I know, I will challenge Fedor to a fight and if he won't spend his time and money to seek me out, I'll say he is afraid. Yeah, that's the ticket!



A lot of guys , beginning students , haven't had a real fight using VT...so I share 1st hand experiences to HELP others figure it out...no lead legs and tan sao doesnt leave the line laterally :D


Oh, a "REAL fight"! LOL!

Instead of sharing your poor first hand experiences, why not provide them with their own good fight hand experience?



You seem to have an agenda , not openly but its there nonetheless....:D Somewhere there is a book or DVD involved :D


My agenda is pointing out nonsense. Sorry, but no book or DVD from me -- as I already said, I don't hold myself out as some example of how things should be done.



If I can help guys to improve their own understanding of the jumble out there some call VT, then all the better....If I read something from others and it makes me ask and find answers to my own questions then I have gained from being here too.


That's great. What makes you think you can do that?



Why you seem to be the main guy responding negatively is ??? you afraid of me ? afraid your agenda is being assailed ? I dont have a book [ cant write or punctuate !] or a DVD series....so why worry ?

.sounds like ego issues.

:D

Yeah, I'm the guy with "ego issues" -- coming from some guy who calls himself "Master Redmond." ;)

I have no problem with people providing useful information to others -- but the rub is whether it is useful or not. I don't assume it is. In fact, I assume that it isn't unless and until there is good evidence to believe otherwise. That's part of critical thnking -- that skill that apparently so many here fail to have developed.

[t_niehoff]

Actually, if one has been folowing what T says throughout the years, the only WC people that T thinks have 'functional WC' are really Robert, Dave M, Alan Orr and his guys and probably himself (but we all know what joke that is).
Not to start a lineage war because I'm only talking about T, but it's funny, they are only CSL (Chu Sau Lei ) guys that he points to for having functional WC.


I don't think that at all -- and I've never said it. So, either you are lying or you haven't really "been following what T says throughout the years." A third possiblity, I suppose, is that you have poor reading comprehension skills.

What I have said is that only the guys who are going out and cross-training with good fighters, like MMA fighters or MT fighters or boxers or etc., will be able to make their WCK functional. And I've explained why. Alan and Dave have done tht work. Not all of Robert's students have or will. It's not a "lineage" thing. I'm certain there are many people outside of Robert's group that have done that. I've personally met some (from WT to YKS WCK). It sounds, although I've never met them, that Ernie, Hunter, Paul, Couch, etc. here on the forum have done or are doing that. I'm sure there are others. (And I've said all this before).



He has cut down every other WCK person, org, etc at one time or another, either very directly by name, or indirectly with his "99% of wck guys can't [fill in the blank]..". He couldn't make his WCK work after how many years?? :eek: So no one else but his guys can??


I haven't cut down every other WCK person -- there are some that I think are great. Of course, some are outright frauds too. ;) One of the main problems in WCK is that everyone believes either they or their sifu is so f#cking good, when in reality they are scrubs or a level above scrub. Yet, they want to tell everyone else how to do WCK. My point is to not listen to them and just do it and see for yourself.

As I have said, we've all got the curriculum. And I think lineages and branches and organizations are nonsense. WCK is WCK.

And, yes, I can make my WCK work. I just say that I'm not that good. And I say that because I've trained (sparred) with some people that were good. If your GM fought a low level MMA fighter, you'd see that he wasn't good at all. It would look like Cheung-Boztepe part Deaux.



It's clear he's moved on to looking for others for answers he couldn't find in his WC - good for him. But that doesn't mean EVERY other person studying WC has the same problem as he has repeatedly said and implied. (and if you ask him to name those that he thinks have functional WCK or the 'real WC' besides his guys, he won't. Too much to lose)


What does it matter who has functional WCK? Even if someone has functional WCK they can't give it to you or anyone. And if they have it, they will know they can't give it to anyone. It's only something you personally can earn for yourself through your own hard work. You earn it on the mats, in the ring, etc.



The issue arises when he tries to project his less-than-mediocraty onto the rest of us and cut down and insult everyone not affiliated with CSL in the process. Think I'm joking? Go back through his hundreds if not thousands of posts... This isn't productive, it's negative and trolling in every sense. His only motive for being here is to put down every WC practitioner besides his own guys adn drag down every thread with his repeated trolling. What purpose does that serve?

My "agenda" is to point out that much of that is said on this forum is bullsh1t -- even if it is "sincere" (something truly believed), and that the only way to ferret out what isn't BS is by looking to good evidence and sound reasoning. My motive for doing that is a love and respect of the art. And while I love and respect the art, I don't love and respect what so many of you are doing to it. Drowning it in BS isn't making the art stronger.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Ha! :rolleyes: :D

The thing about Robert Chu (and his guys) is not a reflection on Robert - it's simply a reflection of what I was saying earlier: when you're that insecure and jealous...then only your own could possibly be any good.

Riiiiiight....

As for Terence's fights, that's nice. Maybe true, maybe not.

But what is true is that around here he has not demonstrated anything for anyone to see in any way, shape, or form....EVER - and his posts betray a lack of understanding about how to use wing chun.

So why do we have to waste so much time and energy dealing with him? If his posts get edited or deleted when he's in his "everyone sucks" mode - that would be the best of all worlds.

Like Joy said, no need to ban anyone (at least not as a first or a second resort)....but more moderating of the attention-seeking nasty boys would go a long way toward reviving this forum in a positive manner.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Ha! :rolleyes: :D

The thing about Robert Chu (and his guys) is not a reflection on Robert - it's simply a reflection of what I was saying earlier: when you're that insecure and jealous...then only your own could possibly be any good.

Riiiiiight....

As for Terence's fights, that's nice. Maybe true, maybe not.

But what is true is that around here he has not demonstrated anything for anyone to see in any way, shape, or form....EVER - and his posts betray a lack of understanding about how to use wing chun.

So why do we have to waste so much time and energy dealing with him? If his posts get edited or deleted when he's in his "everyone sucks" mode - that would be the best of all worlds.

Like Joy said, no need to ban anyone (at least not as a first or a second resort)....but more moderating of the attention-seeking nasty boys would go a long way toward reviving this forum in a positive manner.
That says it all right there for me and he is essentially an mma intermediate at best.

[t_niehoff]

Ha! :rolleyes: :D

The thing about Robert Chu (and his guys) is not a reflection on Robert - it's simply a reflection of what I was saying earlier: when you're that insecure and jealous...then only your own could possibly be any good.

Riiiiiight....


And as I pointed out, it isn't a matter of lineage, it is a matter of whether YOU do the NECESSARY WORK to make your WCK functional. While Robert can teach the core curriculum of WCK, he can't -- and no one can -- make your WCK functional. It isn't something you can get from another person. You get it through your WORK. It's like grappling skill, you EARN it on the mat, spending hundreds of hours rolling with good, skilled grapplers. That's how you make your grappling functional.



As for Terence's fights, that's nice. Maybe true, maybe not.


And it doesn't mean squat. Having a fist fight on the street doesn't "prove" anything. I've been stabbed too -- what does that prove? Nothing.



But what is true is that around here he has not demonstrated anything for anyone to see in any way, shape, or form....EVER - and his posts betray a lack of understanding about how to use wing chun.


But, Victor, there are people here on this forum who have met and trained with me -- as I have said, Robert, Dave, Rene . . .

As far as "understanding how to use WCK", that very phrase tells me you are clueless. It isn't about "understanding" --those are the words of a theoretical nonfighter.



So why do we have to waste so much time and energy dealing with him? If his posts get edited or deleted when he's in his "everyone sucks" mode - that would be the best of all worlds.

Like Joy said, no need to ban anyone (at least not as a first or a second resort)....but more moderating of the attention-seeking nasty boys would go a long way toward reviving this forum in a positive manner.

All you have to do is provide good evidence and sound reasoning in support of your views and you won't have to deal with me.

[Ultimatewingchun]

I do it all the time....but you've got your blinders on (because of your own agenda) and it needs to be moderated - since it's sooooo over-the-top.

And as for the people you've mentioned....how many years ago did you meet up with Rene??? Who hasn't posted here in, I'm guessing, what...two/three years at least. As for the other guys - of course they'll vouch for you - they have no choice but to cover for you.....otherwise they look bad. (Robert, Alan, etc. - not sure who's meant by Dave M).

No, the lack of vids and/or a personal appearance somewhere in the recent past or immediate future doesn't bode well for your credibility; and quite frankly, at this point you have none.

Not even one measly vid of the great wing chun critic in action after all this time?

That speaks volumes.

And the answer to this long, drawn out book would seem to be more moderating.

Because all these threads ultimately become about you.

Enough of that.

[Sihing73]

Hello,

While some of what T says is very viable and even good advice, the issue I have is with his spouting as though his way is the only way.

What I find particularly interesting is the fact that T, in a recent post points out that he fought with some Police. It seems that he posted this, and the fact that he has been stabbed, to somehow validate his "experience". However, he discredits those with similar street experience in real encounters, if they do not jump on his bandwagon and sing the praises of his approach as the only real method of training. Somehow, his, T's, experience is transported to a viable experience while others with equally viable street experience is "garbage" or "fantasy". :rolleyes:

I am honestly curious as to what makes T's experience valuable but makes everyone elses less so :confused:

Terence,

I worked as a correctional officer in a county prison and taught defensive tactics there. It was Delaware County Prison in Thorndale PA. While not the most dangerous place, only low level criminals unless awaiting trial or transport, there were some issues and we did see some violence. However, as I have no video nor verifiable "fight record" I am sure this counts for nothing. Sad to think that the experience I garnered working there amounted to less than working out in the gym :eek:

After that I worked as a Housing Police Officer in the Projects of Philadelphia. I even helped to re-establish a Police Presence in Mill Creek Plaza, a place where the City Cops tried to avoid whenever possible. Of course, I was making arrests of scrubs because they were not high level BJJ practitioners. Somehow the fact that they did not willingly get arrested makes this experience also lacking, apparently in your opinion.

I then worked as a PA State Trooper and I must admit that this was a safer job than being a Housing Officer. Still, I also got to make some interesting and what some would consider potentially dangerous arrests, again most were unwilling ;) however this experience also is not up to par with your standards.

Prior to my work in Law Enforcement I was in the U.S. Army. I had the opportunity to go Airborne and Ranger and visited several places in South and Central America. Of course this experience also can't compare to what you have done in the gym.

After leaving Law Enforcement I myself got into a scrape with the local law in the town I grew up in. As some here know my ex was African American and we had several children. A local Police Officer referred to my 12 year old step-daughter using the "N" word. (If you don't know what that is PM me and I'll explain.) Anyhow, I did not handle this all that well and by the time all was said and done I was arrested and charged with Aggravated Assault on four (4) Police Officers. The end of all of this was a Nolle Contende Plea to one count of resisting arrest. The DA was not all that eager to go before a Jury with the testimony of my step-daughter. I did some community service and served one year probation. I only mention this because you mentioned your incident with the law, so I am curious as to why your experience somehow get validated but mine doesn't :confused:

Oh, fwiw, the Chief of Police and Officers involved in my altercation are no longer on the force.

Oh, when I got out on bail and the local police thought I went home there was quite a media circus. Apparently the local chief was so concerned that I might return home and cause more problems that he had a SWAT team and over 100 officers from surrounding areas converge on my home. I had the pleasure of watching this on the news. I guess they must of thought I was some sort of dangerous fellow, of course if they knew that my Wing Chun and other acquired skills did not have the benefit of training in the MMA gym they would most likely have just sent in one officer and a trained Gerbil :D

I have been shot three times, stabbed numerous times. I have shot others and done some other things in my past which while vindicated may not have been the best reaction at the time.

None of this makes me tough nor does it mean my WC is any good.

I again, only mention this to inquire as to what it is that makes my experience or others with equally real street experience, B.S. but somehow allows your experience to be worth listening too??? I think that is the issue most here has with your approach. But then again, I could be completely wrong.

[anerlich]

The score so far:

Dave: 1324527, Terence: 0.

[k gledhill]

The score so far:

Dave: 1324527, Terence: 0.

HAHAHA :D:D:D GO Dave GO Dave !;)

[k gledhill]

What has when you "started" got to do with anything?



Phil, I've been charged and acquitted (after a jury trial) of felony assualt (causing serious injury)for a "bare-knuckle" fight with off-duty cops -- plural. Is that REAL enough? LOL! You guys and your fantasies.



Oh, you mean where you told me that you wanted to fight me AND you wanted me to make the effort to travel visit you? Yeah, I remember that. I know, I will challenge Fedor to a fight and if he won't spend his time and money to seek me out, I'll say he is afraid. Yeah, that's the ticket!



Oh, a "REAL fight"! LOL!

Instead of sharing your poor first hand experiences, why not provide them with their own good fight hand experience?



My agenda is pointing out nonsense. Sorry, but no book or DVD from me -- as I already said, I don't hold myself out as some example of how things should be done.



That's great. What makes you think you can do that?



Yeah, I'm the guy with "ego issues" -- coming from some guy who calls himself "Master Redmond." ;)

I have no problem with people providing useful information to others -- but the rub is whether it is useful or not. I don't assume it is. In fact, I assume that it isn't unless and until there is good evidence to believe otherwise. That's part of critical thnking -- that skill that apparently so many here fail to have developed.


T has issues...what they are ?

BTW Im not Phil either ...:D and I dont call myself Master Redmond, although it does sound kinda James bond cool...Hello Im Redmond,...Master Redmond ...:D ...I hear Redmond sifu, in the background saying , " No your not, I am ! " confused ? :D
you sure sound like you are...suffering from overwhelming postitis ? its a common ailment brought on from overindulging in self importance.

you brought up the " I started way back in '82 bs" T...not me ;)

Terence had a fight oooooohhhhh with 2 cops undercover oh did you hurt your hands ? ..[ real clothes guys] wow ! wont belive it unless I see a movie of it.
I lost count how many fights after 40 its a blurr....fighting being how long it took to hit someone into a change of attitude...

BTW I never challenged you to a fight, why would I want to challenge a worthless gym fighter all 'geared up' with cod piece and all ? I spit in your direction pteewee :D

There be killers out there ...aka scrubs ...they kill people ....stab them, shoot them, kick them to death...chase them down streets with knives, somketimes they carry guns , bottles, CS GAS :D like a movie sometimes.......so im told.

Keep going T cabin fever has us all at the keyboard, has to be someone we all hate :D

your it !

redmond sifu aka k gledhill :D

[k gledhill]

Hello,

While some of what T says is very viable and even good advice, the issue I have is with his spouting as though his way is the only way.

What I find particularly interesting is the fact that T, in a recent post points out that he fought with some Police. It seems that he posted this, and the fact that he has been stabbed, to somehow validate his "experience". However, he discredits those with similar street experience in real encounters, if they do not jump on his bandwagon and sing the praises of his approach as the only real method of training. Somehow, his, T's, experience is transported to a viable experience while others with equally viable street experience is "garbage" or "fantasy". :rolleyes:

I am honestly curious as to what makes T's experience valuable but makes everyone elses less so :confused:

Terence,

I worked as a correctional officer in a county prison and taught defensive tactics there. It was Delaware County Prison in Thorndale PA. While not the most dangerous place, only low level criminals unless awaiting trial or transport, there were some issues and we did see some violence. However, as I have no video nor verifiable "fight record" I am sure this counts for nothing. Sad to think that the experience I garnered working there amounted to less than working out in the gym :eek:

After that I worked as a Housing Police Officer in the Projects of Philadelphia. I even helped to re-establish a Police Presence in Mill Creek Plaza, a place where the City Cops tried to avoid whenever possible. Of course, I was making arrests of scrubs because they were not high level BJJ practitioners. Somehow the fact that they did not willingly get arrested makes this experience also lacking, apparently in your opinion.

I then worked as a PA State Trooper and I must admit that this was a safer job than being a Housing Officer. Still, I also got to make some interesting and what some would consider potentially dangerous arrests, again most were unwilling ;) however this experience also is not up to par with your standards.

Prior to my work in Law Enforcement I was in the U.S. Army. I had the opportunity to go Airborne and Ranger and visited several places in South and Central America. Of course this experience also can't compare to what you have done in the gym.

After leaving Law Enforcement I myself got into a scrape with the local law in the town I grew up in. As some here know my ex was African American and we had several children. A local Police Officer referred to my 12 year old step-daughter using the "N" word. (If you don't know what that is PM me and I'll explain.) Anyhow, I did not handle this all that well and by the time all was said and done I was arrested and charged with Aggravated Assault on four (4) Police Officers. The end of all of this was a Nolle Contende Plea to one count of resisting arrest. The DA was not all that eager to go before a Jury with the testimony of my step-daughter. I did some community service and served one year probation. I only mention this because you mentioned your incident with the law, so I am curious as to why your experience somehow get validated but mine doesn't :confused:

Oh, fwiw, the Chief of Police and Officers involved in my altercation are no longer on the force.

Oh, when I got out on bail and the local police thought I went home there was quite a media circus. Apparently the local chief was so concerned that I might return home and cause more problems that he had a SWAT team and over 100 officers from surrounding areas converge on my home. I had the pleasure of watching this on the news. I guess they must of thought I was some sort of dangerous fellow, of course if they knew that my Wing Chun and other acquired skills did not have the benefit of training in the MMA gym they would most likely have just sent in one officer and a trained Gerbil :D

I have been shot three times, stabbed numerous times. I have shot others and done some other things in my past which while vindicated may not have been the best reaction at the time.

None of this makes me tough nor does it mean my WC is any good.

I again, only mention this to inquire as to what it is that makes my experience or others with equally real street experience, B.S. but somehow allows your experience to be worth listening too??? I think that is the issue most here has with your approach. But then again, I could be completely wrong.


my question too....why is his more than ours ?.....always. Full cup.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Again, forum...Terence Niehoff is hijacking another thread - by making it about himself.

The guy is in complete denial - which means that he lies to himself, and in so doing, he lies to everyone else.

He lies about what's in his posts - which are literally thousands of posts stating little more than "you guys suck...your system sucks...your training sucks...and your wing chun sifu sucks".

THIS IS WHAT HIS POSTS ARE ABOUT...

but in order to hide the real motivation for such posts - he has to make believe (starting with himself) that his posts aren't saying that - they are simply saying that we need to go train with boxers, mma guys, bjj guys, etc. - if we want to get good.

And on the surface that sounds like a reasonable explanation of what he's saying in his posts.

BUT THAT'S NOT THE EXPLANATION.

That's the cover story, the real explanation being that he wants to tell us - over and over again (literally thousands of posts)....

THAT WE SUCK....OUR SYSTEMS SUCK...OUR SIFUS SUCK....AND OUR TRAINING SUCKS.

And what really motivates this guy to spend so much time and energy doing that?

HIS OWN FEELINGS OF INADEQUACY ABOUT HIS WING CHUN, AND THE JEALOUSY AND INSECURITY THAT THIS BRINGS.

This is obsessive/compulsive behavior, and this is a classic case of it. He's willing to say the same things literally thousands of times in order to avoid confronting the painful truth: he never learned any high level wing chun and what he has learned he was never very skilled at.

So he's determined to make us pay the price for that, ie.- he'll beat us over the head with his keyboard every chance he gets...and when there is no chance....he'll invent one.

And naturally, we feel obliged to defend ourselves, our system, our sifu, and our training methods again-and-again.

This thread being the latest case in point.

There's only one way to stop this, Dave/Sihing73....and it doesn't have to be a banning - but editing and deleting seems to be in order.

[SAAMAG]

I think what everyone is forgetting is that this thread is for each person to evaluate why they're here on this forum, and to make sure that the existence of the forum is beneficial to all.

I'm here to have conversation about the things I'm passionate about---that being martial arts and wing chun in particular. I'm here to hear about lessons learned through others' experiences. I'm here to be able to converse with people that are far more skilled than I. I'm here to perhaps try and help others who might not have as much experience than I. I'm here to talk with friends (even the ones I haven't met).

This thread wasn't meant to be a [enter screen name here] bashing thread...it was a question meant to get each person thinking about their motives, their communication skills, and attitude towards other's viewpoints.

I admit, that I can get pulled into the abyss and allow the conversations to degrade into nonsense. But my intention is not that. I think its time that we start thinking of this forum as it's own kwoon. A cyber-kwoon...one where we're all kung fu brothers and where we can enjoy each other's thoughts.

[anerlich]

Do you have to get into a fist fight with cops now to have any cred?

Suggest the answer to this question be put into the forum FAQ.

I'm OK, I did judo at the Police Boys' club back in elementary school days.

[YungChun]

Sounds like Reno911...

Police had no idea they were about to mess with 'The Wing Chun Lawyer' aka 'Terence The Applicator'.. LOL

[t_niehoff]

Hello,

While some of what T says is very viable and even good advice, the issue I have is with his spouting as though his way is the only way.


What I am "spouting" is not my way, but rather we should take a lesson from the good, proven fighters and learn and practice (train) as they do. After all, we know from results that way works really, really well (we also know from scientific studies it works and why). Is there some "other way" to developing good fighting skills? Well, all you or anyone needs to do is provide evidence of it. So far, no one has been able to. But they can tell you good stories.



What I find particularly interesting is the fact that T, in a recent post points out that he fought with some Police. It seems that he posted this, and the fact that he has been stabbed, to somehow validate his "experience". However, he discredits those with similar street experience in real encounters, if they do not jump on his bandwagon and sing the praises of his approach as the only real method of training. Somehow, his, T's, experience is transported to a viable experience while others with equally viable street experience is "garbage" or "fantasy". :rolleyes:


I posted that info since Phil asked if I had ever been in a "bareknuckle fight". And I said in a subsequent post (that apparently you did not bother reading) that it means absolutely nothing. Since you missed it, I wrote: "And it doesn't mean squat. Having a fist fight on the street doesn't "prove" anything. I've been stabbed too -- what does that prove? Nothing." Since this refutes everything you just wrote, don't you feel silly?



I am honestly curious as to what makes T's experience valuable but makes everyone elses less so :confused:


Yes, you are confused.

[

[t_niehoff]

THAT WE SUCK....OUR SYSTEMS SUCK...OUR SIFUS SUCK....AND OUR TRAINING SUCKS.


Excellent, Victor! That's the first step -- admitting that you are an alcoholic. If you don't recognize the problem, you can't begin to address it.

The problem in WCK is that many of you believe you are "good", that your sifu's are "good", that your training is "good" and therefore you have the answers. It's not until you realize and accept that this is not the case that you can begin to really develop. That's why I, for instance, can admit that I'm not that good while people like you can't (so far, I'm the only one on the forum who has admitted this); that's why I go train at a good, proven BJJ school to become a better grappler while you roll with your untrained students. It all begins with accepting that you really aren't very good.

When you accept that, your next step will be to look for people who have PROVED that they are good, and to seek them out to help you. But, you won't take step two until you've taken step one.

[t_niehoff]

Do you have to get into a fist fight with cops now to have any cred?

Suggest the answer to this question be put into the forum FAQ.

I'm OK, I did judo at the Police Boys' club back in elementary school days.

Apparently you too have reading comprehension issues. Or, you just didn't bother to read what you are commenting on. Or, maybe you are just cherry-picking. You usually have better aim with your snarkiness.

I responded to Phil's question asking whether I ever had a "bareknuckle fight". For him, I guess, this is somehow significant. If not, I don't see why the question is relevent. (BTW, where is you post chiding Phil for asking such a silly question?) I told him that I had -- and then, in the same breath, said it was all fantasy. It's fantasy because, as I have said many times, streetfighting doesn't prove anything.

I followed up that post by explaining to Victor that "And it doesn't mean squat. Having a fist fight on the street doesn't "prove" anything. I've been stabbed too -- what does that prove? Nothing."

[k gledhill]

it wasnt Phil's post...it was mine...:D who's confused ?


What does self-defense mean ? fighting ? a move ? 2-3 guys always...1 on 1 ? weapons ?
bar fight ? car rage fight....geared up with cod piece and mouth piece wearing big gloves and head gear ?

Ive been stabbed too had guns pulled on me, in a couple of countries, etc....but Ive used VT more than you fighting in real situations, ungeared up ;). I have also sparred after every class for over 25 years [geared up without gloves], sometimes with thai, judo, boxers..I cant MAKE them be better than they are :D so I just get on with it, I dont check their credentials, fight history wins v loss records before sparring them ;):D everyone respects MY VT ....your history shows another story.

Why YOU think your entitled to rag on us is a mystery...who asked you too ?

Terence you dont see it.....we all do ! you have a problem, like a drinker YOU have to acknowledge it...we're here for you dude ...NOT !:D

[weakstudent]

I think what everyone is forgetting is that this thread is for each person to evaluate why they're here on this forum, and to make sure that the existence of the forum is beneficial to all.

I'm here to have conversation about the things I'm passionate about---that being martial arts and wing chun in particular. I'm here to hear about lessons learned through others' experiences. I'm here to be able to converse with people that are far more skilled than I. I'm here to perhaps try and help others who might not have as much experience than I. I'm here to talk with friends (even the ones I haven't met).

This thread wasn't meant to be a [enter screen name here] bashing thread...it was a question meant to get each person thinking about their motives, their communication skills, and attitude towards other's viewpoints.

I admit, that I can get pulled into the abyss and allow the conversations to degrade into nonsense. But my intention is not that. I think its time that we start thinking of this forum as it's own kwoon. A cyber-kwoon...one where we're all kung fu brothers and where we can enjoy each other's thoughts.

now thats what i thought it was going to be, thanks for saying that

[t_niehoff]

it wasnt Phil's post...it was mine...:D who's confused ?


Sorry, you're right -- I wrote Phil and meant you. I apologize to Phil. Funny how I get you guys confused. :)



What does self-defense mean ? fighting ? a move ? 2-3 guys always...1 on 1 ? weapons ?
bar fight ? car rage fight....geared up with cod piece and mouth piece wearing big gloves and head gear ?


The point is that "self-defense" or "streetfighting" isn't the issue -- developing good, solid fighting skills is. Good, solid fighting skills work REGARDLESS of the venue or curcumstances. If you can't make what you do work while wearing protective gear what makes you believe you can do it without the gear?



Ive been stabbed too had guns pulled on me, in a couple of countries, etc....but Ive used VT more than you fighting in real situations, ungeared up ;). I have also sparred after every class for over 25 years [geared up without gloves], sometimes with thai, judo, boxers..I cant MAKE them be better than they are :D so I just get on with it, I dont check their credentials, fight history wins v loss records before sparring them ;):D everyone respects MY VT ....your history shows another story.


So you SAY. You may "spar"with your students -- so does Victor. So what? So do karate sensei. Do you think that crap sparring with crap proves that it isn't crap? Just because you spar doesn't mean anything in itself. The TMA guys who fought in the early UFCs sparred with their students too. Go sparwith some good people -- it is important to check credentials. You are, after all, only as good as your sparring partners.

But, I can tell from what you say that you haven't sparred with good people, with good boxers or good muay thai fighters or good judoka, because if you had, you wouldn't be saying the things you are. You'd know better.



Why YOU think your entitled to rag on us is a mystery...who asked you too ?

Terence you dont see it.....we all do ! you have a problem, like a drinker YOU have to acknowledge it...we're here for you dude ...NOT !:D

I am not entitled to anything, and neither are you. If you want to present yourself as a WCK authority and spout nonsensical theory, you are certainly free to do so. Go ahead. That is entirely your call. However, just as you can do that, I can point out that you really don't have a clue. Point-counterpoint. Why is it you all want to make your point, but you don't want anyone to make a counterpoint?

[CFT]

I came on here to learn. I still do sometimes.

[t_niehoff]

I came on here to learn. I still do sometimes.

I have found and still do find these forums useful for learning. But, IME you need to approach then with a caveat: don't believe anything you hear. Between 5-95 % of what ANYONE says is bullsh1t, so you need to run everything through your bullsh1tmeter.

http://caneprevost.wordpress.com/2009/09/16/bullsh1t-meter/ (change the URL to the correct spelling of BS to get it to work).

[CFT]

I have found and still do find these forums useful for learning. But, IME you need to approach then with a caveat: don't believe anything you hear. Between 5-95 % of what ANYONE says is bullsh1t, so you need to run everything through your bullsh1tmeter.

http://caneprevost.wordpress.com/2009/09/16/bullsh1t-meter/ (change the URL to the correct spelling of BS to get it to work).Good article. In essence not too different to what Yip Man said to his students.

[YungChun]

I posted that info since Phil asked if I had ever been in a "bareknuckle fight". And I said in a subsequent post (that apparently you did not bother reading) that it means absolutely nothing.


Any and every time someone uses their art/skills successfully it means something.. It means that they succeeded in what likely was a high stress dangerous situation.. This is the very thing many folks train for..



That's why I, for instance, can admit that I'm not that good while people like you can't (so far, I'm the only one on the forum who has admitted this)

Not quite.. I said much the same on another post you replied to.. I have no problem saying the same thing as I know folks much better than me.



So you SAY. You may "spar"with your students -- so does Victor. So what? So do karate sensei. Do you think that crap sparring with crap proves that it isn't crap? Just because you spar doesn't mean anything in itself. The TMA guys who fought in the early UFCs sparred with their students too.

And some of them clearly had skills.. One kempo guy comes to mind.. Just because many were taken down (to an unfamiliar range) doesn't mean no TMA there or anywhere don't have skills.



But, I can tell from what you say that you haven't sparred with good people, with good boxers or good muay thai fighters or good judoka, because if you had, you wouldn't be saying the things you are. You'd know better.

Bizarre ad hominem attack.

Translation: 'You're obviously wrong because you don't agree with me.'



What I am "spouting" is not my way, but rather we should take a lesson from the good, proven fighters and learn and practice (train) as they do.


News Flash: Fight with good fighters.



If you can't make what you do work while wearing protective gear what makes you believe you can do it without the gear?


Strawman: He didn't say that he couldn't make it work.




What I am "spouting" is not my way.


No, part of what you are spouting is not your way. . The other part about your particular method being the correct one, 'control first' (and the CSL way) is your method and one you say folks would realize is the correct way if they really had experience fighting good people, which clearly they don't because otherwise they would agree with you.. Another ad hominem variant..

[JPinAZ]

The problem in WCK is that many of you believe you are "good", that your sifu's are "good", that your training is "good" and therefore you have the answers. It's not until you realize and accept that this is not the case that you can begin to really develop. That's why I, for instance, can admit that I'm not that good while people like you can't (so far, I'm the only one on the forum who has admitted this); that's why I go train at a good, proven BJJ school to become a better grappler while you roll with your untrained students. It all begins with accepting that you really aren't very good.

When you accept that, your next step will be to look for people who have PROVED that they are good, and to seek them out to help you. But, you won't take step two until you've taken step one.

Thanks, you just proved Vic's whole post - You are admitting you weren't good and couldn't make your crap WC work, and now you assume that everyone has the same problem you do.
And, it seems that until we all admit that we suck like you do, you'll never stop trying to 'save us all'. By basically, trolling.

Your experience (or lack-of) is your own. Your WC sucked, fine. Just leave it at that.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Agreed, JP...well put.

And again, this thread is a perfect example of one of the very biggest problems on this forum: thousands of words dealing with the neuroses of one individual who will never allow himself to get the clue.

Thousands of words from numerous posters.

And if his remarks were edited or deleted when he engages in his repetitive and insulting garbage - none of which he himself can ever or will ever back up...and filled with hypocrisy, as Dave/Sihing73 pointed out...and which has been pointed out by countless posters on countless threads...

we wouldn't feel compelled to deal with his inferiority-filled self obsession that he tries to transfer to everyone else, ie.- "What all of you who don't do, which is what I say I now do - and what I will never show you myself doing - is the only way. In other words: you and your sifu and your training sucks."

And the last 8 words especially of that last sentence - that's his message over-and-over again.

TOO HIMSELF.

Because he's self-hypnotized into believing that he's really talking to us.

And without removing the objectionable garbage that he spews (by edits and deletes)....countless people on the forum will feel compelled to answer him over and over again....

which he will willfully ignore and go right on doing what he does - regardless of how true the criticisms of his garbage are, how clearly they expose his hypocrisy, his lack of wing chun skills, etc.

The latest being that he now points to his own street fights as proof that he can fight - the very thing he has probably mentioned 200 times by now as something that's not to be counted when evaluating and validating oneself.

God, I'm so sick of this. Why bother coming here if virtually every thread gets hijacked by people like this?

[anerlich]

The problem in WCK is that many of you believe you are "good", that your sifu's are "good", that your training is "good" and therefore you have the answers. It's not until you realize and accept that this is not the case that you can begin to really develop. That's why I, for instance, can admit that I'm not that good while people like you can't (so far, I'm the only one on the forum who has admitted this); that's why I go train at a good, proven BJJ school to become a better grappler while you roll with your untrained students. It all begins with accepting that you really aren't very good.

When you accept that, your next step will be to look for people who have PROVED that they are good, and to seek them out to help you. But, you won't take step two until you've taken step one.

I know what you mean. My WC instructor only had 100 amateur and 37 pro kickboxing matches back in the days before any of us had heard of BJJ. He's fought exhbition bouts with scrubs like Bill Wallace and Benny Urquidez.

He only got around to taking up BJJ in 1999, and only made it to brown belt a couple of years ago. I only got my purple belt in 2007. We train at the oldest BJJ school in our state and are members of the first and biggest BJJ association in the country under one of the first twelve non-Brazilian BJJ black belts in the world.

Sure, we suck and are clueless.

But we've taken step one and step two.

You need to take step three, which is to admit you're not the first or only person to have taken those steps, and in fact, you're later off the mark than most of us and show no signs of catching up. Realise your point of view is hardly pioneering or unique, you have nothing original to say, and that your personality and style of communication are neither likeable nor helpful. You are not a unique and beautiful snowflake.

Or to be blunt, **** off.

[duende]

You are not a unique and beautiful snowflake.


:eek: Ouch!!! I nominate this for absolute dis' of the year!! Too funny!

Remind me never to **** you off.

:D

[Wayfaring]

I know what you mean. My WC instructor only had 100 amateur and 37 pro kickboxing matches back in the days before any of us had heard of BJJ. He's fought exhbition bouts with scrubs like Bill Wallace and Benny Urquidez.

He only got around to taking up BJJ in 1999, and only made it to brown belt a couple of years ago. I only got my purple belt in 2007. We train at the oldest BJJ school in our state and are members of the first and biggest BJJ association in the country under one of the first twelve non-Brazilian BJJ black belts in the world.

Sure, we suck and are clueless.

But we've taken step one and step two.

No, definitely some verifiably talented fighters coming out of that school. No need to defend against any generalized allegations there.



You are not a unique and beautiful snowflake.

Sniff, I want to be a unique and beautiful snowflake. But alas, I am not chill enough and therefore am simply a common teardrop shaped water droplet, just like all the others.

[Sihing73]

Well, all you or anyone needs to do is provide evidence of it. So far, no one has been able to. But they can tell you good stories.

Since this refutes everything you just wrote, don't you feel silly?

Yes, you are confused.

I would welcome seeing some of YOUR EVIDENCE but alas I fear it will never appear. What I have are some real and verifiable life experiences which I base my approach on. Others here have the same. What you have, apparently, is the experience of having your butt handed to you so you ran to the gym and jumped on the jocks of all of the MMA guys who YOU could not aspire to be as good as. ;)
Your stories are equally good, only they always seem to be about someone else. When do we hear the stories or see the evidence of what Terrance has been able to do or accomplish?

Refuted :confused: Is this one of your courtroom tactics claiming that you are the man behind the mirror and what you say is true while simply sidestepping any need to provide evidence of your ability to make things work? I mean after all, since your approach is what is needed to provide functional fighting skills, you should be the most awesome fighter in this forum. Somehow I doubt that to be the case..........although you certainly are an accomplished mouthboxer :eek:

Victor, you are of course correct that this thread has become about T although to be fair you also pointed T out and some of us simply responded.

Personally I feel kind of sorry for T, consider how frustrating it must be to have dedicated the time and effort to training in a system of combat only to realize that you, not the system, had failed. How can I say this? Simple, there are examples from all different lineages who can make their WC work for them. Also, WC is well known and in many cases respected as a method of combat. Then we have Terrance who apparently can not make it work for him.

If we took it to the jury would they find in favor of T?? I doubt it unless to find him Mentally incompetent to perform Wing Chun. :rolleyes:

Confusion is a part of life. I am sure you are familiar with it as well :D

[goju]

has terrence even said what mma gym he is at?:D

[anerlich]

If we took it to the jury would they find in favor of T??

I hope he argues his clients' cases better than he argues his own.

Then again, he provides convincing evidence (see that word, T? Your favourite?) of the old saying that any lawyer who represents himself has a fool for a client.

[YungChun]

It seems ironic for some reason, it at least appears that T specializes in assault cases.. :D:cool:

Any WCK folks need an attorney..? I can imagine him defending a chunner charged with assault--telling the jury how WCK folks can't even punch their way out of a wet sack.. lol

[Wayfaring]

has terrence even said what mma gym he is at?:D

Yes. He trains with a small private group that applies wing chun.

In addition he does BJJ at Rodrigo Vaghi's:
http://submissionjiujitsu.com/

And trains MMA style striking at Finney's:
http://finneyskickboxing.com/

[Frost]

well this thread turned out well

why am i hear, well i did southern styles for about a decade, found i was asking alot of questions that could not be answered by my instructors, found this site and read posts from merryprankster, knifefighter, ST100 and fatherdog and their comments led me to sports fighting and i have not looked back. why am i still on this forum, because i still like and do some southern style training, and i tend to only reply to threads about which i know a little bit: strength and conditioning, MMA, grappling, the pros and cons of different training methods.

Why do i post on the wing chun forum ? because i did do some wing chun not alot but then i don’t really comment on technical posts just those including the above things, and because i am fascinated by the fact that a style so popular, so wide spread and meant to be such an efficient fighting style has so little prove of its effectiveness out there.
I mean how many schools produce fighters that win at a good level (apart from rick spains school and some the WSL students), heck how many wing chun guys do we have on tape actually fighting (and i know the standard response to this is not everyone sport fights or has a camera) but hell with all the CCTV cameras and mobile phones around you are telling me only a handful of people have managed to capture wingchun in an actual street fight situation?

I mean WSL's guys went and fought the Thai’s, this is recorded in papers etc, some of the old roof top fights are even on tape, where are the modern day instructors doing the same thing?

Its easy in this day and age to provide proof of your points, simply record it and put it on line, or find a video showing good wing chun in action, hell most instructors seem more than able to use a video when demoing forms and sticky hands, do they somehow always forget the recorders when they spar or fight?

[Sihing73]

I mean WSL's guys went and fought the Thai’s, this is recorded in papers etc, some of the old roof top fights are even on tape, where are the modern day instructors doing the same thing?

Its easy in this day and age to provide proof of your points, simply record it and put it on line, or find a video showing good wing chun in action, hell most instructors seem more than able to use a video when demoing forms and sticky hands, do they somehow always forget the recorders when they spar or fight?

Hello Frost,

Not everyone carries a video camera around with them.
Most real attacks take place in areas not prone to discovery. I mean how many muggings happen on a crowded street in broad daylight.
There are cases where attacks have been captured by video.

I think a big issue which many seem to ignore as relates to real fights, and T should understand this, is LIABILITY. Here in the USA people can sue for anything. Shoot, if a guy breaks into my house to rob me and injures himself, say by falling out the window he can sue me.

I personally know a cop in Sunbury, PA, who had a Husky that bit a guy who was trying to break into his house. The guy had warning signs all around the place. The intruder happened to be Hispanic and the signs were in English. Well to make a long story short, the cops home owners settled with the intruder. Their logic? Since the guy was Hispanic and the signs were in English they thought he had a case :eek: Shoot, in my mind someone breaking into my house shouldn't even have the possibility of suing if they somehow get hurt.

Now just imagine if you got into a fight with someone and taped it for posterity. Now imagine that the guy found out you were a Martial Artist, can you see where the possibilty leads.

I am not saying this will happen, but thanks to lawyers :D people can sue for all sorts of things: coffee too hot at a drive through which is spilled on you and there was a woman who sued a hotel in Hawaii for not posting warning signs about the waves at the beach.

[Frost]

Hello Frost,

Not everyone carries a video camera around with them.
Most real attacks take place in areas not prone to discovery. I mean how many muggings happen on a crowded street in broad daylight.
There are cases where attacks have been captured by video.

I think a big issue which many seem to ignore as relates to real fights, and T should understand this, is LIABILITY. Here in the USA people can sue for anything. Shoot, if a guy breaks into my house to rob me and injures himself, say by falling out the window he can sue me.

I personally know a cop in Sunbury, PA, who had a Husky that bit a guy who was trying to break into his house. The guy had warning signs all around the place. The intruder happened to be Hispanic and the signs were in English. Well to make a long story short, the cops home owners settled with the intruder. Their logic? Since the guy was Hispanic and the signs were in English they thought he had a case :eek: Shoot, in my mind someone breaking into my house shouldn't even have the possibility of suing if they somehow get hurt.

Now just imagine if you got into a fight with someone and taped it for posterity. Now imagine that the guy found out you were a Martial Artist, can you see where the possibilty leads.

I am not saying this will happen, but thanks to lawyers :D people can sue for all sorts of things: coffee too hot at a drive through which is spilled on you and there was a woman who sued a hotel in Hawaii for not posting warning signs about the waves at the beach.

i understand that but here in the UK you can't move for CCTv cameras, hell every week cctv taped fights are on our TVs over here. But its not just the lack of video evidence, its also lack of newspaper reports of these fights, be it of the fight itself or the ensuing law suite :D:), i just find it strange that there were more documented cases and reports of wing chun guys fighting/testing their art back in the 60's (in whatever venue be it the roof tops, in the ring against Thais etc) than there are now, in the age of mass media that we live in.

On a side note i think you do a very good job moderating a very difficult forum

[t_niehoff]

Thanks, you just proved Vic's whole post - You are admitting you weren't good and couldn't make your crap WC work, and now you assume that everyone has the same problem you do.


There is no assumption on my part. My conclusion is based on evidence.

But, you see, there you go-- you're an alcoholic. You believe that YOU and YOUR sifu are good, and do have the answers. See? You ASSUME that. Where is the evidence to support your assumption?

Do you guys, for example, go train with decent MMA and MT fighters and hold your own?

[t_niehoff]

It seems ironic for some reason, it at least appears that T specializes in assault cases.. :D:cool:

Any WCK folks need an attorney..? I can imagine him defending a chunner charged with assault--telling the jury how WCK folks can't even punch their way out of a wet sack.. lol

Funny you should mention assualt cases.

Here's one that is ongoing here in St. Louis and it pertains to the whole self-defense issue:

A friend is representing a MMA fighter/trainer for assualt, A dad brought his 12 year-old son to the gym for boxing lessons, saying that he had trained the boy (the father had boxed a bit in his youth). So, they put the kid in the ring against someone his age for some light sparring to see where he was at. Well, it was evident that the kid had very little skill and, more importantly, didn't want to be there. So, the client tells the dad that his son isn't ready and needs the fundamentals, and questioned whether the kid really wanted to do it. Well, the dad gets livid, takes the son, and leaves. Next day comes back, goes up to client, gets in an argument saying things like he has boxed and knows what he is talking about and the trainer is full os sh1t, etc. Then, throws a punch. Now, client is about 250 of solid muscle, is an accomplished MMA fighter, and looks like the predator! And the dad is about a soft 150. So, client grabs the lapels of the dad's coat and twists them inward, which chokes the guy out in seconds. When dad comes to, he still wants to fight even though he crapped his pants when he went out. Dad leaves, then calls the police. All of this takes place in a crowded gym.

Police arrest client for felony assualt. Their reasoning is that you can only use "like" force in self-defense, so the trainer could hit the guy back but not choke him out (even though the choke was much gentler and didn't cause any injury -- something my client tried to explain to them). To the cops, and prosecutors, neither of whom seem to understand fighting, choking means trying to kill whereas striking is seen as less dangerous.

[t_niehoff]

I would welcome seeing some of YOUR EVIDENCE but alas I fear it will never appear.


If you want to see some evidence, go visit a good MMA school and train/spar with them. It will open your eyes.



What I have are some real and verifiable life experiences which I base my approach on. Others here have the same. What you have, apparently, is the experience of having your butt handed to you so you ran to the gym and jumped on the jocks of all of the MMA guys who YOU could not aspire to be as good as. ;)
Your stories are equally good, only they always seem to be about someone else. When do we hear the stories or see the evidence of what Terrance has been able to do or accomplish?


Why do you want to hear stories? Don't you see how silly that is? Stories!

I don't doubt that you have had "real life" experiences. So what? The issue here is developing good, sound fighting skills -- and even knowing what those are. How do you MEASURE and/or determine your skill? By your "real life" experiences? Do we determine how good a boxer is by whether or not he had some "streetfights" or worked as a bouncer? Or, by what he can do in a ring against other trained fighters? Or, how about how good someone's grappling is? By the fact that they've choked someone out in a "real fight"?

If you have good solid fighting skill, then you should be able to handle a decent fighter, right? Or, do you think that you can suck in a gym but really have the goods?



Refuted :confused: Is this one of your courtroom tactics claiming that you are the man behind the mirror and what you say is true while simply sidestepping any need to provide evidence of your ability to make things work? I mean after all, since your approach is what is needed to provide functional fighting skills, you should be the most awesome fighter in this forum. Somehow I doubt that to be the case..........although you certainly are an accomplished mouthboxer :eek:


Developing skill doesn't work that way. If I said that you need to get in the water and swim to learn and develop the ability to swim, does my getting in the water automatically make me a great swimmer? Of course not. But, it is the only way to develop that skill. How good you become depends on a number of factors (talent, amount of time you put in, etc.).

The validity of my point doesn't rest with me and my performance level. I don't hold myself out as an authority or as an example. If I did that, I'd be doing what everyone else in WCK does (here, look at my youtubeclip of how good I am)! Instead, I say "look at all good, proven swimmers and see what they do".



Victor, you are of course correct that this thread has become about T although to be fair you also pointed T out and some of us simply responded.


Oh, you noticed that? Victor brings me up and then when I respond claims I hijacked the thread!



Personally I feel kind of sorry for T, consider how frustrating it must be to have dedicated the time and effort to training in a system of combat only to realize that you, not the system, had failed. How can I say this? Simple, there are examples from all different lineages who can make their WC work for them. Also, WC is well known and in many cases respected as a method of combat. Then we have Terrance who apparently can not make it work for him.

If we took it to the jury would they find in favor of T?? I doubt it unless to find him Mentally incompetent to perform Wing Chun. :rolleyes:

Confusion is a part of life. I am sure you are familiar with it as well :D

Apparently you haven't recognized that the TMA model of training simply doesn't produce good results. That's why there are no TMA-only trained fighters of any significant skill out there -- oh, except in stories or in beating scrubs. And, why all proven fighters use a different training methodology. That was my "realization", and yes, that was frustrating. Many of you can't and won't accept it because of your ego-investment (you are sifus, masters, etc.), many just want the comfort of a nice, warm, fuzzy fantasy, some just like the role-playing, etc.

But, the truth is a close as your nearest MMA gym. That you won't go and see for yourself, see what you can really do, says it all.

[m1k3]

My background is very much like Frost's. I started my 2nd time around in martial arts doing TWC and then some Moy Yot. I transitioned to grappling simply because it is where I enjoy myself the most.

I also agree with what Frost said and would like to put my own spin on it. It appears to me that WC moved away from fighting as an activity. I don't need to see street fights but I would like to see it in the ring. I know it is only sport and the rules limit what you can do but, if you can't make it work in the ring how can it work in the streets? If you can't beat one guy in the cage how can you beat many in the streets?

I think the funniest part is that the people who are using WC in the cage then get blasted by the WC community for doing it. Usually with all sorts of comments about how that doesn't look like WC, I didn't see WC structure or even complaining that the fighter wasn't using internal skills correctly. D@mn, even at Bullshido those chunners who train in a sporting manner and those schools that fight in the ring get the credit they deserve.

I know everyone doesn't want to compete. I train at an MMA school that has people competing in local and regional MMA events and grappling tournaments. Quite a few of us who train there have no interest in competing and there is no pressure to do so. You can have it both ways.

I think the true test of an art is not how well the elites perform but rather how well can your average person training in the art use it. To be honest there are people who could make underwater knitting an effective art for fighting.:)

So, ask yourself how good do you think YOUR skills are and when was the last time you tested them in a, for lack of a better term, competitive environment.

As a mediocre white belt who is 56 yo I am reasonably sure I am a better grappler than 80% of the people out there, no matter what there age and to a large degree their size. I know that from my rolling experience with new white belts.

Do you feel that confident in your WC skills?

Sorry for the rambling post but the, "we are soooo much better than T" posts were starting to wear thin.

Train hard, be happy.

[t_niehoff]

I know what you mean. My WC instructor only had 100 amateur and 37 pro kickboxing matches back in the days before any of us had heard of BJJ. He's fought exhbition bouts with scrubs like Bill Wallace and Benny Urquidez.


And, I've always said that Spain was a very good kickboxer, haven't I?

[k gledhill]

Its not that T is ...unbearable, only he treats any ideas other than his own as invalid...like he has the authority to give credibility :D NOT obviously he has an agenda too with his lineage....so what.


let him say what he wants ... he has made some illuminating statements about his own abilities.

We know he cant make his stuff work , therefore we cant make ours work unless we take our insecurities to the same places he did....

Some of us have used and made our stuff work, if he cant accept that SO WHAT .

He was first mentioned to me while doing a hands on meeting with another lineage I met here...he said T was an a-h*le..I didnt understand who he was talking about ..yet :D

Unlike T. there are a lot of guys here who want to get beyond the mantra and exchange ideas .etc....
great place for it .

trolls will troll its their nature. let them, ignore them...

the problem is HE CANT resist hijacking with a mantra..... OCD.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Again, "if I can't make wing chun work then neither can you." Beginning, middle, and end of story about T. Niehoff.

Can we move on now?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Look guys, Terrences views have been very consistent - Test your WC VS high caliber opposition to see if it truly works and then fix what doesn't.

Sure his "no you're not doing that because if you were you would agree with me" stuff is a bit tiring and yes, Terrence doesn't place any stock on anecdotal "evidence", but you k now what?
Neither should we.
That said, it doesn't matter what ANYONE ELSE here does or is able to do, what matters is what WE can do.
Now, I have learned that there are many ways to skin a goat and because of that try not to discount the fact that, just because method A works best for ME, it doesn't mean that methods B, C or F don't work either.
But not everyone is like that and lets be honest, while T is a bit "broken record" so are many others here in regards to THEIR chosen method.
I don't like that many posters like to argue with T so much that many threads get highjacked over the SAME points over and over again.
But we are all to blame for that, aren't we?

Lets be truthful for a second:
We all like to think that what we do is THE way to do it, fact is, the best we can ever say is that "it works for me".

[Frost]

I think the funniest part is that the people who are using WC in the cage then get blasted by the WC community for doing it. Usually with all sorts of comments about how that doesn't look like WC, I didn't see WC structure or even complaining that the fighter wasn't using internal skills correctly. D@mn, even at Bullshido those chunners who train in a sporting manner and those schools that fight in the ring get the credit they deserve.



Sorry for the rambling post but the, "we are soooo much better than T" posts were starting to wear thin.

Train hard, be happy.

i don,t think i mentioned this but i iwhs i had like you i find this very funny, instead of getting behind guys that actually test their skills people seem to want to rip them apart... this and the point some like to make about only as few people getting proper instruction in wing chun and everyone else is training the inferior product always makes me laugh:)

[t_niehoff]

Its not that T is ...unbearable, only he treats any ideas other than his own as invalid...like he has the authority to give credibility :D NOT obviously he has an agenda too with his lineage....so what.


I've repeatedly said that I'm no authority. What bothers you is that I say that neither are you or your sifu.

I treat all IDEAS the same -- they are only theories, notions, mental images. I'm not interested in ideas. Anyone can have an idea.

Nor do I care about lineage. Lineage is just more bullsh1t. Lineage only gets in the way.



let him say what he wants ... he has made some illuminating statements about his own abilities.

We know he cant make his stuff work , therefore we cant make ours work unless we take our insecurities to the same places he did....

Some of us have used and made our stuff work, if he cant accept that SO WHAT


This guy "made his stuff work" too:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTXtQogCNh4

So, I guess that proves he is really good and knows what he is talking about, right?

You guys keep talking about how I couldn't make my WCK work -- OK, so which of you have gone and trained/sparred at a good MMA school and made your WCK work? Hmmm? I'm waiting. Victor? No? You? No? Jonathan? No? Oh, I see -- but you could if you want to, right? ;)

Funny how all you guys who believe that you are so good, that you can make what you do "work", won't go mix it up with any decent MMA or MT fighters. Oh, yeah, you spar with your students and have stories about being deadly "on the street", etc.

But, hey, I'm easy to convince -- just show me the evidence. I mean, after all, if you realy have captured Bigfoot, just show us Bigfoot. Who can argue with that?



He was first mentioned to me while doing a hands on meeting with another lineage I met here...he said T was an a-h*le..I didnt understand who he was talking about ..yet :D


Better an assh0le than being full of sh1t.



Unlike T. there are a lot of guys here who want to get beyond the mantra and exchange ideas .etc....
great place for it .


Yes, you guys love your "ideas".

[Frost]

if you want to shut t_niehoff up here is your chance, show him he is wrong post clips showing him he is wrong...how hard can that be? he has given you all the opportunity to porve him wrong why not take it if you dislike him and shut him up?

[Ultimatewingchun]

Yes. He trains with a small private group that applies wing chun.

In addition he does BJJ at Rodrigo Vaghi's:
http://submissionjiujitsu.com/

And trains MMA style striking at Finney's:
http://finneyskickboxing.com/

***YES, but how do we know if he's any good at any of these things? How often does he go? Is he basically crap at each of these things? Without any visual evidence...we could be dealing with someone who has no real skills at anything and then comes on here and literally makes thousands of posts tellling us that we all do sucks.

Do you see the point?

And no, sanjuro, in this case - without evidence - "consistency" is not a virtue (and of course his inconsistency about real life streetfighting as evidence of skill has been established)....but "consistently" telling us that we suck is not to be commended....not without real evidence that he's in a position to talk.

Now can we move on past T. Niehoff?

[t_niehoff]

***YES, but how do we know if he's any good at any of these things? How often does he go? Is he basically crap at each of these things? Without any visual evidence...we could be dealing with someone who has no real skills at anything and then comes on here and literally makes thousands of posts tellling us that we all do sucks.

Do you see the point?


What does it matter how good I am? Assume that I am pure crap -- I don't care. It doesn't change the validity of what I am saying since what I am saying doesn't rest on my skill. I tell people to go train with good, proven fighters and to do what they do, and not listen to people with no proven skills. How does my skill level matter? Whether I suck or not doesn't change the fact that you do.

What you don't seem to grasp is that by training with good people, with good fighters -- from that experience-- I know what is good or not. I know what high level grappling is, for instance, not because I am a high level grappler myself (I'm not) but because I have personally rolled with people from white belt through world champ and have spent 4-5 years doing that now. I see how good grapplers train, I see what they can do, etc. From that experience, I know what crappling is and what good grappling is -- even though I may not be a high-level grappler.

If you beleive that you are a good grappler, then go visit a good grappling school, roll with them and see. What I keep telling you is that if you aren't already doing that (rolling with good people), then you aren't a good grappler -- because what makes you a good grappler is lots and lots of rolling with good people! That's the common denominator with every single good grappler. And it is the same with stand-up, clinch, etc.

[Ultimatewingchun]

It matters a great deal how good you are....because if you're crap....then you have no business making thousands of posts telling other people that what they do is crap.

It can't be any clearer than that.

And if indeed you are crap....then exposing that should end anyone's interest in answering your redundant garbage once and for all.

So by repeatedly telling us that you're not very good (at anything) is not a license to pontificate - it's quite the reverse.

It's just a further indication that it's your wing chun that sucks - along with everything else you do....

and people shouldn't pay any attention to your same-old, same-old posts.

Then the forum can start to return to normal - since in your obsessive-compulsive behavior....you like to hijack every thread you participate in and make it into another one of your very own therapy sessions.

If you can convince the rest of us that we suck...maybe you won't feel so bad about yourself.

It's become so obvious - and so pathetic.

[t_niehoff]

It matters a great deal how good you are....because if you're crap....then you have no business making thousands of posts telling other people that what they do is crap.

It can't be any clearer than that.

And if indeed you are crap....then exposing that should end anyone's interest in answering your redundant garbage once and for all.

So by repeatedly telling us that you're not very good (at anything) is not a license to pontificate - it's quite the reverse.

It's just a further indication that it's your wing chun that sucks - along with everything else you do....

and people shouldn't pay any attention to your same-old, same-old posts.


Victor, you don't need to be good to recognize crap -- all it takes is experience training with really good, skilled people. That'something you don't have, which is why you don't understand -- and why you don't recognize crap.

For example, I can tell you that your "defense against the round punch" is crap. Dale told you that too. So did everyone at bullshido. Everyone who has experience training with good, skilled fighters will tell you that. They all know that it won't work, and that it just opens you up. But you won't listen because you believe that you are "good" and that you "know". Your belief that you are "good" isn't based on training/sparring with good people, and your belief that you "know" isn't based on being able to do it successfully against good people. Yet, you still want to act the authority, want to teach people how to do things you can't do, etc.

OK, go try it out against some decent MMA or MT fighters and see. But you won't do that. But, you'll tou teach that nonsense, you put up clips of that nonsense, you talk about that nonsense on this foum, but you won't go try it. And then when anyone points this stuff out, they "don't know anything" or "don't listen to him" or "troll" or any other excuse you can think of -- like "he's no good." Like I said, whether I am good or not, it doesn't change the fact that your "hook defense" is nonsense, like many of your other theories.



Then the forum can start toreurn to normal - since in your obseeeive-compulsive behavior....you like to hijack every thread you participate in and make it into another one of your very own therapy sessions.


By "return to normal" you mean permit you guys to present your nonsense without being challenged.

As Frost pointed out, if my criticisms are invalid, it's very easy to prove me wrong and shut me up. You could, for example, put up clips, of you making your "hook defense" work in sparring against some decent MMA or MT people.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Its time for a REAL GONG SAU !!!
http://www.motifake.com/image/demotivational-poster/0907/pillow-fights-pillow-fight-lesbian-girls-sex-hot-teen-demotivational-poster-1248732080.jpg

[Ultimatewingchun]

You know, what's also NOW become very obvious is that Terence Niehoff IS crap at all the martial arts he claims to be training in...

his latest post being the tip off.

And what Dale Frank said was that this "might" work....that's the word he used. In other words, he's not really sure. But I am sure - and you obviously know nothing at all about successfully using wing chun against hooks or round punches. And if you cover the space deeper as I demoed in part two of that series - all possible objections get answered. So enough of that.

But the latest tip-off is: "You don't need to be good to recognize crap" - you say....

Aaah, excuse me, Mr. self-appointed Wizard of Oz hiding behind the curtain, but you do have to have skills to know what's really crap and what isn't.

And you don't have those skills.

WHICH IS THE ONE-AND-ONLY REASON WHY YOU'VE NEVER PUT UP A VID YOURSELF.

So you're not qualified to judge.

[m1k3]

This thread is amazing! Its like watching a train wreck in slow motion. You want to advert your eyes and you just can't.

Frost, I was going to suggest that we start a thread picking at each other over our grappling skillz and other mma stuff like who has the real mma and I realized that had been done already with HumbleWC, Goju and KnifeFighter.

Read what you have been posting people. This is EMO heaven. If your happy with your WC what the h3ll do you care about what someone else says. If you want to do SLT all day as your training thats cool. If you want to figure out how your WC fits into a self defense program discuss things like situational awareness and how GT's fence concept integrates with WC skills. (Very well IMO).

But dear lord, grow a set and get over yourselves. :p

[Ultimatewingchun]

m1k1,

I don't care at all what Terence has to say about anything. Because he has no credentials to judge anything.

But what I do care about is the way he hijacks every thread....and if it weren't me going back and forth with him right now - it would be somebody else.

That's the pattern with this guy and his never-ending garbage posts trying to tell everyone that their wing chun, and their training methods, and their sifu sucks.

And it will never stop unless his posts start getting edited or deleted.

That's what I'm bringing out right now by going back-and-forth with him: it will never end until the moderator does something to stop it.

Virtually every thread he participates in has pages and pages of this kind of thing going on between Terence and at least one or two other people - sometimes as many as 4 or 5 people.

You see what I mean now when I said that I'm so sick of this?

It just happens to be me at the moment. Blink a few times and it will be somebody else going at this post-after-post with this guy.

Getting back to the title of this thread: Is that why we're here?

[HumbleWCGuy]

This thread is amazing! Its like watching a train wreck in slow motion. You want to advert your eyes and you just can't.

Frost, I was going to suggest that we start a thread picking at each other over our grappling skillz and other mma stuff like who has the real mma and I realized that had been done already with HumbleWC, Goju and KnifeFighter.

Read what you have been posting people. This is EMO heaven. If your happy with your WC what the h3ll do you care about what someone else says. If you want to do SLT all day as your training thats cool. If you want to figure out how your WC fits into a self defense program discuss things like situational awareness and how GT's fence concept integrates with WC skills. (Very well IMO).

But dear lord, grow a set and get over yourselves. :p

I have never said anything about who has the real mma. My problem is that Knifefighter acts like terence at times.

[m1k3]

I have never said anything about who has the real mma. My problem is that Knifefighter acts like terence at times.

Obviously I fail at humor. (Slinks off to a dark corner to ponder the cruelness of life and maybe cry a little. )

[Frost]

Obviously I fail at humor. (Slinks off to a dark corner to ponder the cruelness of life and maybe cry a little. )

don't worry us MMA/grapplers get your humour :)

[Wayfaring]

I don't know, guys. Drama does seem to follow T like the cloud of dirt over Pigpen in the Peanuts.

But there does seem to be a whole lot of "WC in a vacuum" going on. People do seem to keep throwing up "concept" WC video clips, but never any sparring clips. That's really bad. It kind of says that they either never really spar, or are afraid that their sparring clips will look so bad that they will be laughed off the internet. Or that it's less important.

Here's the clips I can remember seeing linked to from this forum that have any semblance of live movement to them:

1) Phil Redmond's students at a sanda type competition
2) Victor - bird cage headgear sparring clips mma style - strikes + ground
3) William Cheung - light sparring with a boxer
4) Alan Orr - guys in kickboxing, MMA competitions
5) Russian WT - live sparring w/headgear
6) Dale Franks - had some highlights of his fight clips
7) Shawn Obasi - MMA fights - 2
8) Infamous Cheung Boztepe incident
9) UFC video of WC guy who lost - Asbel Cancio

Out of all that it's not a whole lot.

Why, guys? Are we going to be relegated to tales of fighting prowess from 3 generations removed? Good ole days discussions? Theory and concepts only? I hope to be sparring and rolling live when I'm 75-80. It's a lot healthier than BS'ing about concepts.

[t_niehoff]

m1k1,

I don't care at all what Terence has to say about anything. Because he has no credentials to judge anything.


And YOU do?



But what I do care about is the way he hijacks every thread....and if it weren't me going back and forth with him right now - it would be somebody else.

That's the pattern with this guy and his never-ending garbage posts trying to tell everyone that their wing chun, and their training methods, and their sifu sucks.

And it will never stop unless his posts start getting edited or deleted.


Or -- how about this? -- that you actually stop posting theoretical nonsense. That will get my posts to stop.



That's what I'm bringing out right now by going back-and-forth with him: it will never end until the moderator does something to stop it.


So, YOU go back and forth with me, but it is I who should be stopped? Why not stop you from posting your nonsense?



Virtually every thread he participates in has pages and pages of this kind of thing going on between Terence and at least one or two other people - sometimes as many as 4 or 5 people.

You see what I mean now when I said that I'm so sick of this?

It just happens to be me at the moment. Blink a few times and it will be somebody else going at this post-after-post with this guy.


Yup, we see the same pattern again and again -- people mang nonsensical claims, presenting theory as fact, etc. and I point that out, asking for some good evidence and for some sound reasoning, and never getting any. When will that stop? Serenity NOW!



Getting back to the title of this thread: Is that why we're here?

The thread is "wy are we here?" The answer is to talk about WCK.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Think I've had just about enough of going back-and-forth with the wizard-of-oz for awhile....points made....and regardless of what he says to the contrary...his wing chun....and his martial arts in general:.

REALLY SUCK. :cool:

Which is why we'll never see him in action doing anything; one helluva keyboard warrior though.

And which is why he'll never stop throwing darts at everyone else. :rolleyes:

[Ultimatewingchun]

Here's the clips I can remember seeing linked to from this forum that have any semblance of live movement to them:

1) Phil Redmond's students at a sanda type competition
2) Victor - bird cage headgear sparring clips mma style - strikes + ground
3) William Cheung - light sparring with a boxer
4) Alan Orr - guys in kickboxing, MMA competitions
5) Russian WT - live sparring w/headgear
6) Dale Franks - had some highlights of his fight clips
7) Shawn Obasi - MMA fights - 2
8) Infamous Cheung Boztepe incident
9) UFC video of WC guy who lost - Asbel Cancio

Out of all that it's not a whole lot.

Why, guys? Are we going to be relegated to tales of fighting prowess from 3 generations removed? Good ole days discussions? Theory and concepts only? I hope to be sparring and rolling live when I'm 75-80. It's a lot healthier than BS'ing about concepts. (Wayfaring)

......................................


***CAN'T argue with you there, Wayfaring....we need more.

[anerlich]

I think the funniest part is that the people who are using WC in the cage then get blasted by the WC community for doing it. Usually with all sorts of comments about how that doesn't look like WC, I didn't see WC structure or even complaining that the fighter wasn't using internal skills correctly.

WEll yeah, but T's as much to blame for this as anyone else. Look at how he treated Phil's videos recently.


I know everyone doesn't want to compete. I train at an MMA school that has people competing in local and regional MMA events and grappling tournaments. Quite a few of us who train there have no interest in competing and there is no pressure to do so. You can have it both ways.

I have the same experience. So do a lot of other people. One of my BJJ training partners is one of the late Jim Fung's most senior students. We don't feel the need to lecture others about it at absurd length, especially if they've done it for longer than we have, or think it gives us the right to denigrate those who feel differently.


As a mediocre white belt who is 56 yo I am reasonably sure I am a better grappler than 80% of the people out there, no matter what there age and to a large degree their size. I know that from my rolling experience with new white belts.

I'm an average 55 yo purple belt. I'm confident my training (in WC as well as BJJ) was time well spent in being able to defend myself. BTW, I'm not saying my experience is any more valid than yours because of a stupid thing like belt colour. I'm always happy to see more of us old geezers on the mat (or in the kwoon, running round the park, surfing, doing anything other than sitting on their a$$es drinking beer and watching TV, though I do that too).


Do you feel that confident in your WC skills?

Yep for the same reason.


Sorry for the rambling post but the, "we are soooo much better than T" posts were starting to wear thin.

Mine was only a response to the patronising "you guys need to be like me, see the light, and take BJJ" post from T. The thing is, many ARE better than T and have been doing what he does for a lot longer than him but don't need to inflict the tiresome missionary zeal on their peers.


Train hard, be happy.

I am on both counts.

[goju]

Frost, I was going to suggest that we start a thread picking at each other over our grappling skillz and other mma stuff like who has the real mma and I realized that had been done already with HumbleWC, Goju and KnifeFighter.

again what did i tell you about trying to drag me into your posts or arguments?

first with your little feud with hardwork (who ive never spoken too)now again

seriously get a hobby already bud you need one:D

[k gledhill]

I've repeatedly said that I'm no authority. What bothers you is that I say that neither are you or your sifu.

I treat all IDEAS the same -- they are only theories, notions, mental images. I'm not interested in ideas. Anyone can have an idea.

Nor do I care about lineage. Lineage is just more bullsh1t. Lineage only gets in the way.



This guy "made his stuff work" too:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTXtQogCNh4

So, I guess that proves he is really good and knows what he is talking about, right?

You guys keep talking about how I couldn't make my WCK work -- OK, so which of you have gone and trained/sparred at a good MMA school and made your WCK work? Hmmm? I'm waiting. Victor? No? You? No? Jonathan? No? Oh, I see -- but you could if you want to, right? ;)

Funny how all you guys who believe that you are so good, that you can make what you do "work", won't go mix it up with any decent MMA or MT fighters. Oh, yeah, you spar with your students and have stories about being deadly "on the street", etc.

But, hey, I'm easy to convince -- just show me the evidence. I mean, after all, if you realy have captured Bigfoot, just show us Bigfoot. Who can argue with that?



Better an assh0le than being full of sh1t.



Yes, you guys love your "ideas".

i wish you where closer so i could meet you..it only takes a few minutes to show. save all the back and forth bs. :D no death match just a friendly head bashing session.

[k gledhill]

I would love to have seen you in old times when they discovered the world was round...you would still be scared to go to the edge for fear of falling off...:D

ideas scare you ? are you so insecure ? you wont even try to understand....

Worse is that someone might follow your path of misery.

[m1k3]

WEll yeah, but T's as much to blame for this as anyone else. Look at how he treated Phil's videos recently.



I have the same experience. So do a lot of other people. One of my BJJ training partners is one of the late Jim Fung's most senior students. We don't feel the need to lecture others about it at absurd length, especially if they've done it for longer than we have, or think it gives us the right to denigrate those who feel differently.



I'm an average 55 yo purple belt. I'm confident my training (in WC as well as BJJ) was time well spent in being able to defend myself. BTW, I'm not saying my experience is any more valid than yours because of a stupid thing like belt colour. I'm always happy to see more of us old geezers on the mat (or in the kwoon, running round the park, surfing, doing anything other than sitting on their a$$es drinking beer and watching TV, though I do that too).



Yep for the same reason.



Mine was only a response to the patronising "you guys need to be like me, see the light, and take BJJ" post from T. The thing is, many ARE better than T and have been doing what he does for a lot longer than him but don't need to inflict the tiresome missionary zeal on their peers.



I am on both counts.

Thanks for the well thought out reply. What I find interesting is that my age is no big deal at the gym, even though I am a lot older than almost everyone, but how my peers react when they find out I train submission grappling. It is usually "shock and awe" LOL. I remember one lady, a relative of my son in law who I had to explain it to as "non-cooperative partners yoga".

The belt color thing doesn't worry me too much especially since I have switched to training no-gi.

From a self defense point of view you probably learn most of the useful stuff and have the biggest jump in skills in the first 6 months to a year depending on how much you train. After that it mostly refining your skills and adding techniques for dealing with people who also train hard, which we know is a small minority of the general population.

I trained WC for less than a year before the school had to close. I thought I got a lot of useful tools from it but I probably would have made the switch to grappling anyway. I think its a genetic thing, I'd much rather choke you than hit you.


A question for all of you instructors out there.

At the end of the first 6 months to a year do you feel your average student has a good tool set and the confidence and ability to use it?



t., those who don't get that the fight game has changed at this point aren't going to and those that do are probably already doing what you suggested. Also there is that group who train for other reasons, are happy with what they are doing, and really don't give two sh1ts about what you have to say. So for the sake of the rest of us, who for the most part agree with what you are saying, dial it down a notch or two.

Train hard, be happy.

[m1k3]

again what did i tell you about trying to drag me into your posts or arguments?

first with your little feud with hardwork (who ive never spoken too)now again

seriously get a hobby already bud you need one:D


This was already covered in my "I fail at humor" post. But you have to admit that you, HWC and knifeFighter had a good one going for a while.

[t_niehoff]

i wish you where closer so i could meet you..it only takes a few minutes to show. save all the back and forth bs. :D no death match just a friendly head bashing session.

If you want to prove that you are good, then prove it. It's easy. All it would take is a video clip of you sparring with some good MMA or MT fighters to convince me -- that would only take a few minutes. Why is it that you guys who believe that you are good and that you "know" can talk and talk about what you would or could do -- it's always what you WOULD do or what you COULD do, and it's never what you are doing. If you are sparring with good fighters, then post videos of it. That's simple. If you aren't sparring with good people, then you can't be any good.

[Frost]

If you want to prove that you are good, then prove it. It's easy. All it would take is a video clip of you sparring with some good MMA or MT fighters to convince me -- that would only take a few minutes. Why is it that you guys who believe that you are good and that you "know" can talk and talk about what you would or could do -- it's always what you WOULD do or what you COULD do, and it's never what you are doing. If you are sparring with good fighters, then post videos of it. That's simple. If you aren't sparring with good people, then you can't be any good.

actually can people tell me why this is such a bad idea? if you are so interested in challengingTerrance directly but can't why not do the next best thing and prove his ideas wrong by filming yourselves sparring and beating an MMA guy?

[Vajramusti]

And we are still figuring out why we are here<g>
Onward through the fog!

joy chaudhuri

[k gledhill]

simple answer is I am not insecure enough to do the prove it to me for anyone.....just the guy who seems to think I'm talking sh$t iow T .....I have had a lot of bjj guys come to me for VT I train in Thai too I have thai routines for bag drills....what's funny is the assumption that none us HAVE done our own fighting.....but as usual that's not enough for T
SO WHAT .....he wants proof he can feel it himself...why hurt someone else to prove it
I have also offered Robert a visit anytime....all friendly . Exchanging ideas....

[sanjuro_ronin]

actually can people tell me why this is such a bad idea? if you are so interested in challengingTerrance directly but can't why not do the next best thing and prove his ideas wrong by filming yourselves sparring and beating an MMA guy?

Outside of kicking the ass of a recognised world caliber MMA/Grappler/MT, what proof is enough?
When I did a few throwdowns years ago with some of the Bullshido guys in Toronto, I was, with all humilty, MUCH better than they were and some were competitive MA too.
When the videos were posted every poster was impressed with my display skill ( skill transends opponent level by the way).
What did that all mean?
Nothing.

[David Jamieson]

I don't know, guys. Drama does seem to follow T like the cloud of dirt over Pigpen in the Peanuts.

But there does seem to be a whole lot of "WC in a vacuum" going on. People do seem to keep throwing up "concept" WC video clips, but never any sparring clips. That's really bad. It kind of says that they either never really spar, or are afraid that their sparring clips will look so bad that they will be laughed off the internet. Or that it's less important.

Here's the clips I can remember seeing linked to from this forum that have any semblance of live movement to them:

1) Phil Redmond's students at a sanda type competition
2) Victor - bird cage headgear sparring clips mma style - strikes + ground
3) William Cheung - light sparring with a boxer
4) Alan Orr - guys in kickboxing, MMA competitions
5) Russian WT - live sparring w/headgear
6) Dale Franks - had some highlights of his fight clips
7) Shawn Obasi - MMA fights - 2
8) Infamous Cheung Boztepe incident
9) UFC video of WC guy who lost - Asbel Cancio

Out of all that it's not a whole lot.

Why, guys? Are we going to be relegated to tales of fighting prowess from 3 generations removed? Good ole days discussions? Theory and concepts only? I hope to be sparring and rolling live when I'm 75-80. It's a lot healthier than BS'ing about concepts.

Holy Crap! A sensible person in the wing chun forum? Well, the end is near I guess. lol

Spot on with your assessment by the way. You will still run up against that brick wall of insecure idiots who want to go on about how their granddad is bigger than yours though and who want to pepper every thing with loads of irrelevant esoterica.

Your attitude is what will keep you right man. :)

[Frost]

it proved your training worked and that it could be applied under pressure, and if your opponents (even though worse than you) looked half decent, used proper structure and techniques, and then looked better against others more there standard then it would prove their training worked as well.

My stand up looked okish when i was a sparring partner for a visiting polish fighter just getting ready for his first proMMA fight last year, my standup against a pro kick boxer when helping him get ready for a title fight looked crap (i looked like aimobile punching bag next to him) but my structure,and the techniques i used could still be seen, i just got my asss kicked by a better fighter.

i would say if you enter a local tournement and (win or lose) you look like how you do in training, same structure under fire, using the same techniques then i think it proves how you train works, even if you are not the best fighter, does that make sense?

[sanjuro_ronin]

it proved your training worked and that it could be applied under pressure, and if your opponents (even though worse than you) looked half decent, used proper structure and techniques, and then looked better against others more there standard then it would prove their training worked as well.

My stand up looked okish when i was a sparring partner for a visiting polish fighter just getting ready for his first proMMA fight last year, my standup against a pro kick boxer when helping him get ready for a title fight looked crap (i looked like aimobile punching bag next to him) but my structure,and the techniques i used could still be seen, i just got my asss kicked by a better fighter.

i would say if you enter a local tournement and (win or lose) you look like how you do in training, same structure under fire, using the same techniques then i think it proves how you train works, even if you are not the best fighter, does that make sense?

The point us, unless you post a video of you fighting someone that is "known", many can just say, "it was a scrub".
We've seen it before.
That said, I still think that the WC world would be better served if MORE WC people fought.

[Frost]

The point us, unless you post a video of you fighting someone that is "known", many can just say, "it was a scrub".
We've seen it before.
That said, I still think that the WC world would be better served if MORE WC people fought.

then thats wrong, if you enter at the level you train at that should be enough for people, if you are only a part time wing chun guy then you should compete against part time MMA guys and be judged at that level

completly agree with your closing comment

[CFT]

i would say if you enter a local tournement and (win or lose) you look like how you do in training, same structure under fire, using the same techniques then i think it proves how you train works, even if you are not the best fighter, does that make sense?This is the "counter" to the observation that WCK fight clips (youtube etc) just look like bad kickboxing, i.e. not fighting like how you train.

[Frost]

This is the "counter" to the observation that WCK fight clips (youtube etc) just look like bad kickboxing, i.e. not fighting like how you train.

you will never look as clean in fighting as you do in sparring, but you should atleast be able to see similarities thats for sure

[Wayfaring]

Outside of kicking the ass of a recognised world caliber MMA/Grappler/MT, what proof is enough?
When I did a few throwdowns years ago with some of the Bullshido guys in Toronto, I was, with all humilty, MUCH better than they were and some were competitive MA too.
When the videos were posted every poster was impressed with my display skill ( skill transends opponent level by the way).
What did that all mean?
Nothing.

I don't doubt it. The Bullshido guys are 95% mouth and 5% talent, at least most of them. They have the right idea about throwdowns though. Even if the skill level is low to intermediate. And there are a few exceptions like Mike/Omega. Joe Lauzon used to post over there before he became too much of a prima donna. Most national level competitive kyokushin guys would probably outclass Bullshido MMA kids. Now the UG is a little different audience - there's more skill over there at mixedmartialarts.com.

Actually, Bullshido throwdowns might be the perfect place to start for WC practitioners to mix it up. Test your skills in the lower end of the talent pool.

[t_niehoff]

simple answer is I am not insecure enough to do the prove it to me for anyone.....


Simple answer is you are full of sh1t and you know it. I decent MMA or MT fighter would destroy you. If you aren't already sparring with people of that level, you're not going to be able to handle them. It IS that simple.



just the guy who seems to think I'm talking sh$t iow T .....I have had a lot of bjj guys come to me for VT I train in Thai too I have thai routines for bag drills....


Bullsh1t. Pure bullsh1t. You may have guys who have taken a few BJJ lessons come and train WCK, and you may have done a little MT, but that's it.

Why is it that you can always tell stories to prove you're good (why else would you talk about them?), but won't show it claiming you have nothing to prove!



what's funny is the assumption that none us HAVE done our own fighting.....but as usual that's not enough for T
SO WHAT .....he wants proof he can feel it himself...why hurt someone else to prove it
I have also offered Robert a visit anytime....all friendly . Exchanging ideas....

I can tell by what you say that you've never sparred with anyone having good skills -- because if you had, you wouldn't be saying the nonsense you do. Sure, you've sparred, but against your scrub students. BFD. You train them how to move poorly and thenbig surprise, you can beat them! Amazing how that works!

You may pull the wool over the scrubs eyes, but anyone who has put in time with good people will KNOW.

Oh, and I am sure that the good MT and MMA fighters are very, very thankful that you won't hurt them just to prove that you are good.

[t_niehoff]

The point us, unless you post a video of you fighting someone that is "known", many can just say, "it was a scrub".
We've seen it before.


I don't think that is true. You can tell whether a fighter has some decent skills and attributes. And, an easy way to get over that is just to go to a good, proven MMA or MT gym -- they'll have some good people there. They don't need to be world-class or even high-level. And you can spar to your heart's content.

If they are in NYC, go visit Renzo's or The Wat, for example.

[Ultimatewingchun]

A question for all of you instructors out there.


At the end of the first 6 months to a year do you feel your average student has a good tool set and the confidence and ability to use it? (m1k1)
.............................

***YES... because I take an mma approach to wing chun. By the end of his first year he's learned how to use some long range boxing/kickboxing moves to either score a blow or get to close range....along with the TWC entry technique...where he then (at close bridging range) goes to work with a fair amount of basic wing chun fighting attack moves, defenses, and energy principles (and he's also learned some basic long range TWC and boxing related defense as well)...

and some very rudimentary clinch work - including some elbow and knee strikes...and one or two very basic takedown defenses, including how to sprawl.

He's learned all of SLT by then, but only spends maybe 5 minutes per class on it by now (and about 10 minutes when he just starts for the first few months)....some dan chi sao, some double arm rolling, switching, and returning to the centerline....lots of pak sao/pak da....some bong sao/lop sao....perhaps a few double arm technique moves immediately transferable to fighting....a fair amount of footwork...and an intro to the first section of chum kiu by now, perhaps...again, maybe 5 minutes per class...and much time spent learning specific scenario responses vs. kicks and punches - but geared always toward a spontaneous followup with differentiation drills and...sparring...because...

he/she is also sparring (starting with light - but contact graduates to harder as soon as he's ready)...at once a week beginning about 10 months in.

Caveat:

Doing all this inside of 12 months is all dependent upon the student who comes to class 2-3 times per week, works hard, takes instruction well, and has some natural talent.

........................................

Why are we here?

To discuss things like this, instead of spending page-after-page, thread-after-thread answering one accomplished, but-skilled-in-other martial arts troll (Dale Frank)...and one other phony "expert" who alledges that he "knows" wing chun/fighting but who never shows the forum anything about what he can do - and has never even once explained what, in particular, about wing chun he can actually use.

Thousands of posts spent by now on this forum answering this phony in particular. A know-it-all about everything but who has no credentials (ie.- show us something, anything)...no credentials at all - just the "claim" that he does this and that....

but what is clear is that we're dealing with a giant, inferiority-filled and insecure, obsessive/compulsive and bombastic ego that takes a phony hike whenever someone wants to see him up-close-and-personal after they get fed up with his insulting behavior.

And then the phony rushes to remind us once again that "he, himself, is not very good - but that's okay, he's still in a position to 'know'..." What a load of crap!

It never fails.

But actually the failure is more ours: why don't we just IGNORE him? If the moderator won't edit/delete his phony, bombastic crap...then I suppose it's up to the rest of us to delete it in our own way.

****PUTS NIEHOFF ON HIS "IGNORE" LIST....

[m1k3]

Victor, thank you for an honest answer. Without actually attending what you are doing sounds good to me. If after the one year start up period you or your student has some good basic skills and the confidence to use them in a sparring situation you've pretty much accomplished your goal. Anything on top of that is gravy IMO.

[Ultimatewingchun]

You're welcome, m1k1.

Do you teach? If so, tell us about what your students might be doing (or might be capable of doing)...after 6 months or a year.

[m1k3]

You're welcome, m1k1.

Do you teach? If so, tell us about what your students might be doing (or might be capable of doing)...after 6 months or a year.

No, I'm just a hobbyist. Right now I'm training submission grappling. I did TWC for a while but the school closed and I probably would have switched to grappling anyway. I just enjoy rolling more than striking. I like coming back to the forum here because I enjoyed my WC days and still fool around with it some on my own.

LOL, I guess that means I'm larping WC. t. will be upset with me. :p

[anerlich]

actually can people tell me why this is such a bad idea? if you are so interested in challengingTerrance directly but can't why not do the next best thing and prove his ideas wrong by filming yourselves sparring and beating an MMA guy?


1. I have no interest in validating my training to or challenging a keyboard warrior and non-entity from St Louis.

2. They aren't his ideas. He's just mouthing ideas elucidated better by people that, unlike him, have actually achieved something in MA. Many of us agree with them to some degree, just get sick of having them rammed down our throats. I've been doing all the stuff he claims to do for longer than him but don't need to constantly tell everyone about it because of ego, inferiority complex, self hatred or whatever it is drives his compulsion to pollute every thread with his tired, unoriginal crap.

The problem is the messenger, not the message. He pollutes every thread.

[Wayfaring]

A question for all of you instructors out there.


At the end of the first 6 months to a year do you feel your average student has a good tool set and the confidence and ability to use it? (m1k1)
.............................

***YES... because I take an mma approach to wing chun. By the end of his first year he's learned how to use some long range boxing/kickboxing moves to either score a blow or get to close range....along with the TWC entry technique...where he then (at close bridging range) goes to work with a fair amount of basic wing chun fighting attack moves, defenses, and energy principles (and he's also learned some basic long range TWC and boxing related defense as well)...

and some very rudimentary clinch work - including some elbow and knee strikes...and one or two very basic takedown defenses, including how to sprawl.

He's learned all of SLT by then, but only spends maybe 5 minutes per class on it by now (and about 10 minutes when he just starts for the first few months)....some dan chi sao, some double arm rolling, switching, and returning to the centerline....lots of pak sao/pak da....some bong sao/lop sao....perhaps a few double arm technique moves immediately transferable to fighting....a fair amount of footwork...and an intro to the first section of chum kiu by now, perhaps...again, maybe 5 minutes per class...and much time spent learning specific scenario responses vs. kicks and punches - but geared always toward a spontaneous followup with differentiation drills and...sparring...because...

he/she is also sparring (starting with light - but contact graduates to harder as soon as he's ready)...at once a week beginning about 10 months in.

Caveat:

Doing all this inside of 12 months is all dependent upon the student who comes to class 2-3 times per week, works hard, takes instruction well, and has some natural talent.



Where do you integrate catch into this? mat time for rolling / sparring that includes ground? spin separate thread maybe?

[goju]

then ignore terrence especially if you have nothing to prove

complaining about it certainly isnt making the forum any better and its rediculous grown men cant resists the urge to debate with him all over the board :D

[Wayfaring]

1. I have no interest in validating my training to or challenging a keyboard warrior

Actually, not bad idea there. If we all lived closer together we could do more throwdown events and call them "Clash of the Keyboard Warriors".

[anerlich]

Yeah, beat each other over the head with the keyboard and then use the cord to choke them out! Another reason not to use bluetooth!

[Ultimatewingchun]

Separate catch wrestling class on Wednesday nights for the past 7 years, Wayfaring...with some wrestling/grappling thrown in during the Saturday sparring sessions for those who come on Wednesdays.

But I've toying with the idea of trying to integrate catch into all three wing chun classes when I move back to Manhattan - if that's possible. And eliminate the separate catch class.

Don't know for sure, yet.

I've found that the problem is that most people who come looking for wing chun don't seem to be interested in wrestling/grappling...and so I've kept them separate, for the most part.

My top student gave me some good advice about this just last week: get the wing chun-only enthusiast enrolled, and teach him the wing chun that he came for (with some elements of the boxing/kickboxing thrown in) - as I mentioned in a previous post.

And save the catch wrestling for the advanced students only - because the more hardcore they become the more they will naturally want to take an mma approach to wing chun and fighting in general.

Sounds like a good plan, but the logistics of that might be difficult to work out. We'll see.

[weakstudent]

would any of you guys use your ground stuff in a self defense situation with multiple opponents. the reason i asked is because most self defense situations , its never one opponent its always more than one. well at least in NYC from what i've seen and been around. i have nothing against bjj or ground fighting i'm going to learn a few basics just so i can mess with shawn.

[Wayfaring]

Yeah, beat each other over the head with the keyboard and then use the cord to choke them out! Another reason not to use bluetooth!

Ah, but those reasons are far outweighed by th3 c00l!
http://www.thinkgeek.com/computing/keyboards-mice/8193/

[Wayfaring]

Separate catch wrestling class on Wednesday nights for the past 7 years, Wayfaring...with some wrestling/grappling thrown in during the Saturday sparring sessions for those who come on Wednesdays.


I like the separation of training. Different fundamentals kind of drive that IMO. Plus you could have a whole separate crowd for grappling. Open mat sessions are also a good idea.

In your catch classes, do you do fundamental movements, technique, and live rolling?

[anerlich]

would any of you guys use your ground stuff in a self defense situation with multiple opponents. the reason i asked is because most self defense situations , its never one opponent its always more than one. well at least in NYC from what i've seen and been around. i have nothing against bjj or ground fighting i'm going to learn a few basics just so i can mess with shawn.

It depends. I've heard several stories of guys in brawl situations who came through fairly unscathed because they went to ground and kept guys in their guard, while their buddies who kept it standing copped more damage.

Knifefighter posted a few stories of guys who successfully used groundfighting in defense situations not long ago.

Also, the phrasing of your question assumes you can stay on your feet by choice. If you trip on an unseen object, or slip on a patch of grease, or get taken down, you may end up groundfighting with multiple opponents whether you wanted to or not. And it would be best to have some skillz if that happens IMO.

[Ultimatewingchun]

I like the separation of training. Different fundamentals kind of drive that IMO. Plus you could have a whole separate crowd for grappling. Open mat sessions are also a good idea.

In your catch classes, do you do fundamental movements, technique, and live rolling?


***WE DO everything you just said:

Start with some fundamentals, ie.- sprawls, hip heists, bridges, basic pummeling to underhooks, overhooks, head control, some knee an elbow shots to keep it honest in the clinch, some basic standing wrestling holds to takedowns...and then reversals, escapes, attacks (subs) from bottom positions...specific techniques and positional pin downs, holds, and rides from the top, including some subs....but the main theme of each class will depend upon what's to be covered more than something else on that particular night....and then after things have been drilled awhile - we roll live.

Agree about having separate classes (that is the best way)...but may have to make some compromises on this...as once I go back to Manhattan the studio rental price I'll have to pay will just about double...so I'll have to go with the wing chun first-and-foremost in order to attract enough students to pay for the room and make some profit.

Will only add a specific catch wrestling class after I have enough students interested to pay for the room on those nights.

[k gledhill]

Simple answer is you are full of sh1t and you know it. I decent MMA or MT fighter would destroy you. If you aren't already sparring with people of that level, you're not going to be able to handle them. It IS that simple.



Bullsh1t. Pure bullsh1t. You may have guys who have taken a few BJJ lessons come and train WCK, and you may have done a little MT, but that's it.

Why is it that you can always tell stories to prove you're good (why else would you talk about them?), but won't show it claiming you have nothing to prove!



I can tell by what you say that you've never sparred with anyone having good skills -- because if you had, you wouldn't be saying the nonsense you do. Sure, you've sparred, but against your scrub students. BFD. You train them how to move poorly and thenbig surprise, you can beat them! Amazing how that works!

You may pull the wool over the scrubs eyes, but anyone who has put in time with good people will KNOW.

Oh, and I am sure that the good MT and MMA fighters are very, very thankful that you won't hurt them just to prove that you are good.


whatever froggy...im going to ignore you now....your getting way to much attention, back in the well...:D

[Frost]

would any of you guys use your ground stuff in a self defense situation with multiple opponents. the reason i asked is because most self defense situations , its never one opponent its always more than one. well at least in NYC from what i've seen and been around. i have nothing against bjj or ground fighting i'm going to learn a few basics just so i can mess with shawn.

like anelich i too know guys that have survived do using grappling (not just ground fighting but standing grappling) and realistically how well would you fair on your feet against a few guys?

From what i have seen multipule attacks usually end up in some form of grappling situation, even if its just them holding and hitting you so learning some grappling is useful, especially if they knock you to the ground and start to kick the sh*t out of you

[weakstudent]

thanks guys for those answers and i agree as a matter of fact just a few days ago two guys i know that in their 40s had a throwdown and after the first few punches they tangle up and went to the ground and the one with the weight advantage ended up on top. but really didnt do anything. i was a street fight i got the message loud and clear get your cardio right, and at least learn some basic ground stuff.

[t_niehoff]

2. They aren't his ideas. He's just mouthing ideas elucidated better by people that, unlike him, have actually achieved something in MA.


And, I've never claimed them as "my ideas" -- I've been upfront that we should listen to what good fighters and trainers say and adopt their methods, haven't I? So, I guess what you are saying is that I follow my own advice. :)



Many of us agree with them to some degree,


True. And many others don't. And some give it lip service or say they agree but their practices contradict them. You know, like guys who claim to "agree" wtih me but then practice forms. ;)



just get sick of having them rammed down our throats. I've been doing all the stuff he claims to do for longer than him


Certainly you've been training in BJJ much longer that I have. As far as what you've done with your WCK . . . ?



but don't need to constantly tell everyone about it because of ego, inferiority complex, self hatred or whatever it is drives his compulsion to pollute every thread with his tired, unoriginal crap.

The problem is the messenger, not the message. He pollutes every thread.

Well, someone has to. Someone has to point out the bullsh1t. Unfortunately, you can't point out the bullsh1t (the message) and be warmly received. When you point out the bullsh1t, people invariably resort to name-calling, psychobabble, etc. I mean, after all, what else can they do?

The most interesting thing IMO is to look at who on this forum complains about these things and who doesn't (Dale, Paul, Frost, M1K3, Wayfaring, etc.). It says a lot about how people really train.

[k gledhill]

the man in the glass booth....sound is turned off , yet he rants as if anyone is still listening... ribbet ;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

would any of you guys use your ground stuff in a self defense situation with multiple opponents. the reason i asked is because most self defense situations , its never one opponent its always more than one. well at least in NYC from what i've seen and been around. i have nothing against bjj or ground fighting i'm going to learn a few basics just so i can mess with shawn.

Have used, more than once, worked fine ( it allowed me to get back up).
Look at it this way:
Grappling, one more tool in the arsenal.

[t_niehoff]

the man in the glass booth....sound is turned off , yet he rants as if anyone is still listening... ribbet ;)

Yup, keep complaining . . . but whatever you do, don't go hurting those MMA and MT fighters.

[Ultimatewingchun]

the man in the glass booth....sound is turned off , yet he rants as if anyone is still listening... Ribbet ;)

***This !!! ;)

[k gledhill]

Yup, keep complaining . . . but whatever you do, don't go hurting those MMA and MT fighters.

your too funny ...my point was not hurting some random guy just to prove to the frog prince...
iow brainyack , if Im having an arguement and a guy says I'm full of sh&t why would I walk off and go knock on a strangers door and ask if I could beat 'them' up instead and take a movie to bring back for you to see...:D kind of random...like punching a guy standing next to you after 'you' insult me on the street , just to show what I may do ...:D:D

knock knock, hello I know this a-h+le who insists I beat YOU up to prove my stuff works to HIM, do you mind if I take a movie of it :D:D:D:D

no T your the one we should all tape beating on...;)

sound switch back to off position, rant on....

[Wayfaring]

if Im having an arguement and a guy says I'm full of sh&t why would I walk off and go knock on a strangers door and ask if I could beat 'them' up instead and take a movie to bring back for you to see...:D

There is somewhat of a point here. Picture this:

Walks up to ACS, uhhhh, hello, Mr. Lally? I was, uhhh, wondering, uhhh, well like I got in this argument on the internet, see, and they were all telling me my wing chun sucks, uhhhh, and well, do you think that Ryan Bader could like spar with me, and like uhhhh go kind of easy, and uhhh could I video it to show people on the internet so like this lawyer from St. Louis would know that I uhhh like train the real thing?

Yeah. That would fly.

You'd see this.
http://azcombatsports.com/welcome/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/trevorpic1-200x300.jpg

Except one eye would be raised in a very puzzled expression, wondering if you'd gone off your meds.

[t_niehoff]

There is somewhat of a point here.

There are a number of ways to go about training/sparring at good MMA or MT schools without walking on off the street and challengng them. You could, for instance, set up privates and ask that it include sparring. You could ask if they have open mat time because you'd like to try sparring before you join. You might, God forbid, actually join a good gym (some even let you do it on a trial basis). I've done all three.

And, some MMA people who teach seminars will spar with the attendees. I got to spar with Karo that way.

But, you can always find excuses for not doing it.

[k gledhill]

again hi-f%kin-larious...:D

T's cunning plan ....

1) I secrete myself into a mma gym [ which I happened to have held my VT classes in for the last 10 years :D ]
2) I JOIN a club to prove for YOU my Vt is good
3) and then spar etc...bringing the camera along one day :D

ALL FOR YOU !

Keep it up T your VT may Su&k but you are really humerous :D

just a BTW , I have held my VT classes in an open MMA gym here in NYC for the last 10 years...along side Thai, BJJ, Sambo, Boxing gym...and a whole host of other ways, kali, jkd etc...[who ask me not to hit their heavy bags too hard and make them swing :D but in a nice way ) .

We all showed each other something you should try, basic 'respect' for others and what they do, regardless of what YOU may think ....we all got along and didnt have to kill each other like children to prove we had bigger d*cks

[Wayfaring]

There are a number of ways to go about training/sparring at good MMA or MT schools without walking on off the street and challengng them. You could, for instance, set up privates and ask that it include sparring. You could ask if they have open mat time because you'd like to try sparring before you join. You might, God forbid, actually join a good gym (some even let you do it on a trial basis). I've done all three.

And, some MMA people who teach seminars will spar with the attendees. I got to spar with Karo that way.

But, you can always find excuses for not doing it.

There's a point there too.

And for those that do classes in the same location, or have MMA or grappling schools close, there's another option, since many want to train in a primary art first, like on this forum wing chun. Open mats are good. Also, hiring someone to come in and set up your sparring and conditioning program is an option.

However, ego gets in the way.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Awhiel back I took a WC friend of mine to a local MMA/MT gym for him to spar.
I knew the owner/head coach and set it up.
I told him my friend wanted to test his skills with no EGO or chip on his shoulders, just a honest test of his skills.
So he put him in the ring and on the mat with a few guys that had been there less than a year, guys he knew were cool and not aholes.
My friend got to fight and test and see where the holes were and everyone was all the better for it.

[Frost]

Awhiel back I took a WC friend of mine to a local MMA/MT gym for him to spar.
I knew the owner/head coach and set it up.
I told him my friend wanted to test his skills with no EGO or chip on his shoulders, just a honest test of his skills.
So he put him in the ring and on the mat with a few guys that had been there less than a year, guys he knew were cool and not aholes.
My friend got to fight and test and see where the holes were and everyone was all the better for it.

yep proper MMA schools will welcome anyone to spar with them, and at whatever intensity the person comng in wants to train at.

at the gym i am at you if want to spar hard no problem, depending on your skill level you can go with amatures, pros of guys getting ready for the nect UFC, grappling wise you have amature and pros as well. If you are an ass you get treated as such, but most guys welcome sparring different people it keeps them sharp.