Learning Shaolin forms but not the theory or application

[marbas]

I was just wondering what everyone here thought about kung fu schools teaching the forms but not the application of these techniques. There are quite a few schools out here where I live, and one even has direct lineage from the shaolin temple, but none of them teach the theory or application behind kung fu.

I've been practicing a mutant form of "chujiquan", which looks like in incorporates some of the traditional form but I haven't seen much of the form I'm being taught now, and I haven't learned anything like the actual philosophy and application behind the techniques. I'm starting to feel like what I'm doing is useless and is just "flowery fists and embroidery kicks". Do some of you feel the same sentiment? And is there a point to learning kung fu when you're not learning the buddhist philosophy or application of these techniques?

[SAAMAG]

IMO, the Buddhism aspect is irrelevant to learning kung fu. Forms though, in addition to giving a more productive method of general exercise, serve as catalogs for the system's techniques and methods of movement. They would no better than lifting weights and running on a treadmill without the meanings behind the movements.

There are reasons why you may not be learning the meanings yet, those reasons should be asked of your teachers though.

Good luck.

[LFJ]

IMO, the Buddhism aspect is irrelevant to learning kung fu. Forms though, in addition to giving a more productive method of general exercise, serve as catalogs for the system's techniques and methods of movement. They would no better than lifting weights and running on a treadmill without the meanings behind the movements.

There are reasons why you may not be learning the meanings yet, those reasons should be asked of your teachers though.

Good luck.

The Buddhist philosophy aspect is irrelevant if the style is not Buddhist. Shaolin Monastery arts however have specific names for each technique that often times point out philosophical principles within the Shaolin culture. So it is very much relevant if you are learning the complete art, which includes the cultural aspect.

As for training forms without the applications shown, there is still benefit from training your body-mechanics. Many teachers choose not to reveal the applications until your body-mechanics are solid. Otherwise the application would be useless. Other teachers feel the whys are every bit as important as the hows from day one. Either way there is benefit if you focus and train hard following your teachers instructions.

[GeneChing]

Some students learn forms without application or philosophy, and that's fine. That's their choice. Some learn one application for most moves and a little philosophy, and that's fine too. Some learn a lot of applications for every move. It just depends on how far you want to go.

No matter what, if you feel what you are learning is lacking, you need to fill the gaps. Find out more. Traditionally, the teacher would never tell you. Some teachers, well, they just don't know. All a teacher can do is open the door for you. You have to go through. Sometimes going through that door means finding another teacher.

I disagree with Vankuen's comment, "They would no better than lifting weights and running on a treadmill without the meanings behind the movements." First of all, there's an implication that lifting weights and running on a treadmill isn't very good. For most Americans, that's their entire workout regimen, and that's fine. What's more, too many martial artists overlook this type of training. My contention is a little deeper. I'd say that practicing forms, even if just the external movements, provides the weekend athlete with more grace and balance than just weights and treadmill. It's not necessarily that much more, and not an absolute given, but I'll still make the distinction.

[bawang]

I'm starting to feel like what I'm doing is useless and is just "flowery fists and embroidery kicks".
yes you are. stop immediately

by continuing you will actively participate in destruction of chinese martial arts. you will be financially supporting frauds and make them more powerful

[David Jamieson]

If you want more martial in your martial arts then that's what you have to look for.
There's plenty of places that practice esoteric stuff, label it martial arts, but tend to stay away from too martial of an approach for any number of reasons.

There's a lot of books in a library. Plenty of them I can't be bothered with reading. :)

[pazman]

If students aren't really interested in the applications, that's fine...they still stand to gain some benefit. But if they aren't shown the correct application, how will they be able to do the form correctly?

As for teachers who don't know the applications, that's unacceptable and they should find a new line of work. Unfortunately, there are a lot of "fake" teachers here and in America that should be calling themselves fitness coaches and not gongfu masters. They take advantage of the fact that in Chinese culture students generally never question the teacher. But good "real" teachers are the same around the world...they love it when their students ask questions and they want to give every opportunity for their students to succeed.

Marbas...if your teacher does not know or practice the application to the forms, leave them, they are wasting your time. Seek out people from the Buddhist community in your area if you want to learn Buddhist philosophy. There are many styles of martial arts that teach you "applications" from the start, choose one that looks fun and practical.:)

[RenDaHai]

Applications...

There should be no very specific applications for specific moves. The beauty of these old forms is that each move has 10000 changes. Your teacher should not necessarily have to highlight every application, you can do this yourself. but what he does need to do is to inspire you. To teach you the THEORY and PRINCIPLES of wushu. When you understand these you won't need him to tell you applications, as you will be able to derive them yourself.

Every move can be 'Ti, Da, Shuai, Na'. Every move can be applied as a 'kick, strike, throw, capture'. Every move can be applied in all frames from the very small frame i.e on someones finger, to the very large frame i.e on someones whole body. The principles on how to apply are important, not the specific moves. The Formula, not the numbers.

Form is a lot more than people give it credit for. You can learn a great deal just by practicing form, but you need to understand this isn't just a random collection of moves (well, if you learn a modern form it probably is). They are a poetic sequence which holds a great deal of the architects wisdom. Without understanding some principles of wushu, it is less useful.

I wouldn't worry too much about application, but if you are learning no principles or theory then perhaps you could be better spending your time. Are you at least learning about body mechanics? About how to release power?

[marbas]

Marbas...if your teacher does not know or practice the application to the forms, leave them, they are wasting your time. Seek out people from the Buddhist community in your area if you want to learn Buddhist philosophy. There are many styles of martial arts that teach you "applications" from the start, choose one that looks fun and practical.

He knows the application, I can tell from his background. But I've been to six classes and haven't seen them teach me or anyone else the application. And they told me they did teach application when I asked them before signing up. I go to class today, and I'm going to ask about it.



I wouldn't worry too much about application, but if you are learning no principles or theory then perhaps you could be better spending your time. Are you at least learning about body mechanics? About how to release power?


I'm not learning any of that. They show you the movements they want you to practice and that's about it. After they show you they walk away and you practice them by yourself repeatedly. The only advice they give me about release power or body mechanics is "faster, more power". And you're right that I can tell the application of some of the things right off the back, but I don't know when I'll ever need to block or punch while in horse stance. I took some other martial arts before kung fu and each time we learned something we were told what the move was for and exactly how to do it, even if it was a relatively basic move. Then we practiced it on one another for 20 mins. That might not seem like much, but I can tell you that those moves are ingrained in me and I know when the chance opens up for me to use them. Especially since we practiced open sparring for 20 mins each class as well. However, that isn't what I'm learning in kung fu.

Maybe my expectations are too high?

[bawang]

the teacher supposed to teach shaolin but teaches u chujiquan modern wushu form
ur already learning a form on the sixth class and thats normal for u

sumting is wrong wit both of u

[Songshan]

He knows the application, I can tell from his background. But I've been to six classes and haven't seen them teach me or anyone else the application. And they told me they did teach application when I asked them before signing up. I go to class today, and I'm going to ask about it.

I'm not learning any of that. They show you the movements they want you to practice and that's about it. After they show you they walk away and you practice them by yourself repeatedly. The only advice they give me about release power or body mechanics is "faster, more power". And you're right that I can tell the application of some of the things right off the back, but I don't know when I'll ever need to block or punch while in horse stance. I took some other martial arts before kung fu and each time we learned something we were told what the move was for and exactly how to do it, even if it was a relatively basic move. Then we practiced it on one another for 20 mins. That might not seem like much, but I can tell you that those moves are ingrained in me and I know when the chance opens up for me to use them. Especially since we practiced open sparring for 20 mins each class as well. However, that isn't what I'm learning in kung fu.

Maybe my expectations are too high?

With only 6 classes in the books.....I'd say yes you are expecting a lot right away. Considering your background (any prior training?) I am suprised you are even being taught a fighting form with applications. I seen a lot of people hang up their Feiyue shoes because they kept looking past the 18 basics (taught at most modern shaolin schools) and not concentrating ON the 18 basics. When you do that where is your foundation? Zero.

Give it time. Learn your basics before you dive off into the fighting applications. They will come in time.

[marbas]

the teacher supposed to teach shaolin but teaches u chujiquan modern wushu form
ur already learning a form on the sixth class and thats normal for u

sumting is wrong wit both of u


My teacher is a former 31st generation shaolin monk. I don't think you have an idea of what you're talking about. He isn't teaching me a wushu form. And it's wrong of me to expect to be able to use what I'm learning if I ever have to, especially from a warrior monk?

*sarcasm*I guess you're right bawang, I shouldn't expect to learn how to fight in a martial arts school. *sarcasm*




Considering your background (any prior training?) I am suprised you are even being taught a fighting form with applications. I seen a lot of people hang up their Feiyue shoes because they kept looking past the 18 basics (taught at most modern shaolin schools) and not concentrating ON the 18 basics. When you do that where is your foundation? Zero.

Yes, BJJ and Jiu jitsu. Each for about a year. I see what you mean, thanks.

[Fei Li]

six classes is nothing. after six month you may have some sort of basics.
after six years you are maybe good at what they teach (with hard work).
Gong fu is about patience and hard work. Just do what they tell you, the rest will come…

[Eugene]

ChujiQuan is a basic stance / linking boxing set right ?

@marbas
You might drill on this for a year, you will have a nice result, even without the application,

drilling is like a big hammer, let the hammer fall on each posuture of this quan set, and it will come out nice :)

[mawali]

I was just wondering what everyone here thought about kung fu schools teaching the forms but not the application of these techniques. There are quite a few schools out here where I live, and one even has direct lineage from the shaolin temple, but none of them teach the theory or application behind kung fu.

I've been practicing a mutant form of "chujiquan", which looks like in incorporates some of the traditional form but I haven't seen much of the form I'm being taught now, and I haven't learned anything like the actual philosophy and application behind the techniques. I'm starting to feel like what I'm doing is useless and is just "flowery fists and embroidery kicks". Do some of you feel the same sentiment? And is there a point to learning kung fu when you're not learning the buddhist philosophy or application of these techniques?

Learning form without background or application is worthless but you can still possess "flowery fists and embroided kicks". It comes down to smoke and mirrors!
Absorb the form (make it second nature) and try to find a teacher who knows concept and principle. Dont't solely rely on application but on concept.
No need to know a bunch of forms but definately find someone who can teach jibengong and shenfa (for lack of better terminology).
No need for philosophy either. You are conscious, over 19 years (I hope) and have been taught some fundamental stuff by your parents that would allow you to fuinction in the world.

[Lee Chiang Po]

I would suspect that the horse should go before the cart. Teaching a form before teaching technique and application seems to be doing it backwards to me. Would it not be best to teach it the other way around? Forms are supposed to represent application of technique, so how would you know if you are performing proper technique or application if you learn form first?
I am into practical. If it is complicated it is too hard to learn. Doing it backwards will only complicate it more I think. I think things like this occur when there are a number of students that are at different levels of learning and they get jumped around with some of the slightly more advanced students. Maybe. If one joins in and becomes the first new student in a month, he will be a month behind the nearest student, and what do you do with him? Stick him in with the next more advanced group? Probably.

[LFJ]

I would suspect that the horse should go before the cart. Teaching a form before teaching technique and application seems to be doing it backwards to me. Would it not be best to teach it the other way around? Forms are supposed to represent application of technique, so how would you know if you are performing proper technique or application if you learn form first?

Training forms is to solidify body mechanics and proper alignment necessary for making an application work, along with developing the physical attributes to make one's body able to actually apply something effectively.

[mawali]

Training forms is to solidify body mechanics and proper alignment necessary for making an application work, along with developing the physical attributes to make one's body able to actually apply something effectively.

It may be true in the case of wushu but most taolu participants rarely go beyond form as performance and gymnastic exuberance! If I look at the taolu roster and compare to shuaijiao or sanshou one, the forms guys rarely enter the latter category! I wonder why?

[TenTigers]

traditionally, forms are taught last, and in many cases, only to heirs. Only recently-in the past several generations have they been teaching forms first. This is not evolution, it is a commercial adaptation. People like to collect forms. They look cool, they're good for demos, etc.
That being said, there is also the concept of building and developing a suitable vehicle through forms practice, line drills,and then teaching application... later..if ever..and those applications being very shakey. I've had students of a well known Shaolin Monk come to me to learn applications of their own forms and how to fight, because the applications he taught were very, very lame.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Whenever I think of forms I thinK:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_4s5pmFL_ZlQ/SyJXLfbv4rI/AAAAAAAACYE/OODW_6M7wjw/s1600/redheads%2Bred%2Bheads%2Bhair%2Bcarrot%2Btop%2Bcar rottop%2Bstrawberry%2Bblondes%2Bhot%2Bwomen%2Bgirl s%2Bhot%2Bpretty%2Bbeautiful%2B%2Bsexy%2Bnude%2Bna ked%2Bfunny%2Bmotivational%2Bposters.jpg

[PlumDragon]

Training forms is to solidify body mechanics and proper alignment necessary for making an application work, along with developing the physical attributes to make one's body able to actually apply something effectively."Skill" is accessed under stress, not while doing a form.

Performing forms (and really, most 2-man drills or any other set pattern as well) to perfect body mechanics and alignment, etc is only perfecting these things in the context of the form.

For one to build true skill at any appreciable rate, they *must* enter a stressful situation where the stimulus being issued to them is random, and just beyond their capability to deal with it, and they msut do it in this context over and over until the body starts doing things right...

I have 1 student who spends time each and every day in the gym trying to perform a particular defense which requires some specific body movements. I dont know how many thousands of times hes done this solo at slow speed and fast, with weights and with different types of intent, and so on and so forth...but it all goes right out the window as soon as I turn up the intensity on him beyond what he can handle--which I do for each and every moment that I train him. He makes immeasureably larger (thousands...hundreds of thousands of times more?) progress in 1 hour of stressful random training than he does with months and months of solo training, set 2-man drills or "casual" partner exercises. The only reason to train those forms is if there is no partner around, and then you should be very well aware of just how much (or little) you get out of the practice...

By the way, Sanjuro, that redhead is just...damm...

[Northwind]

Although I do agree that turning up the heat and training reaction, etc. is important - I sure as hell do not ascribe to the "forms are useless" paradigm.

[SnowDog]

yes you are. stop immediately

by continuing you will actively participate in destruction of chinese martial arts. you will be financially supporting frauds and make them more powerful


I almost fell off my chair when I read this one!!!!! Leave it to Bawang. LOL!!!! :D


Oh, and Sanjuro........Kittens have good taste.

[RenDaHai]

I have to disagree with a lot of the feeling here......

Form and application are seperate entities. It would be a mistake to apply movements exactly as they are in the abstract form, as would it be a mistake to perform a form doing the moves exactly as they are applied.

The vast majority of people who practice shaolin wushu have absolutely no clue about how it is to be applied properly....

Shaolin wushu in application is a continuos mess of small movements utterly without form. You don't need to know any forms in order to apply shaolin, you only need to learn the principles, the formulas, the laws. In application, at the moment of impact all good wushu is the same, be it taiji, xinyi, shaolin, wudang, ermei, hongjia, zha, pao, nanquan, yongchun, etc etc.

Never the less FOrm is indispensible training. So much kung fu can be learned through training form, and it can sharpen your understanding of the principles of wushu. It can prepare you body, it can inspire your mind.

Forms have always been practiced by a lot of people, they have always had some small element of performance (if only for personal satisfaction)., they have always been exagerrated. They are poetically constructed. Forms were never secret, it was the principles of Wushu that are secret, that are only passed on to the few successors of the style. And they still are today.....

SO to answer the question; I suspect your main problem is this; You don't mind paying your dues, but you need to know whether this master is worth it or not, and if you can't see that after the first few lessons then he probably is not.

[Eugene]

@RenDaHai, :)

Do you practice with Master Shi Yong Wen in that room with the red carpet wich i see alot on videos ? And all the books and papers on the wall ?

I wish I could also practice with him some day.

I like the way he screams when he ends Xiao Hong Quan in a video about him. (
five flowers sit on mountain )

Do you know what kind of staff sets he learns studens ?

greetings Eugene

[bawang]

Forms have always been practiced by a lot of people, they have always had some small element of performance (if only for personal satisfaction).,
traditionally that was for the lowest street level performers; they were called lu ji ren, street entertainers. today ji has changed to mean prostitute .

in ming dynasty movements like tumbling and spinning in the air is banned in the army

taolu: from older word 套子 taozi

taozi: gimmick, hook
use in a sentence: that rice bowl in rich clothes saw me performing the taozi and he was really interested. hes hooked.

[bawang]

he liang chen, ming dynasty wrote from zhen ji chapter two 《阵记》

command to ban flowery practice

外如花刀、花枪、套棍、滚权之类，诚无济于实用，虽为美看，抑何益于技哉？是以为军中之切忌者 ，在套子武艺

"flowery saber, flowery spear, twirling staff, rolling fork, its useless whats the point? this is taboo in the military: gimmicky martial arts "


fantasy novel water margin
既然令郎肯学时，小人一力奉教。只是令郎学的全是花棒，只好看，上阵无用，小人从新点拨他

"i can teach you, but all you learned is flowery staff, useless for fighting. you have to start over."

even in fantasy storytelling of folk stories there is criticism and redicule of flowery martial arts



stories of dongyong 涌幢小品
董青芝祠部闻倭儆，集教师数十人讲武事，与一少林僧角拳，皆仆。僧曰：‘此谓花拳入门，错了一生矣。’祠部 惘然，亦不复谈

"official tong heard about the japanese pirate threat and gathered a few dozen instructors to talk about martial arts. there was a shaolin monk. they boxed and wrestled him and all lost ,laying on the ground. the monk said, "join a flowery style, ruin your whole life." official tong was silent and after that never talked about martial arts again"


taken from lecture by proffessor ma ming da

[Northwind]

And I must ask, Bawang, what is your point? Are you saying that taolu or form practice, etc. is useless? Maybe I misunderstand or read too much into what you are saying...

[bawang]

forms that are for performance and beauty are useless and is traditionally shameful

even if the technique is an ancient orthodox posture, you can still do it flowery.

[Northwind]

Ah...Okay...I would agree.
But then again, some forms have a mix of both - good traditional pieces plus some bits that are for an aesthetically-pleased crowed. What would you say about these?

I ask because in my system we have a few of these (I never really liked the mix & would rather have a separation of the two). I love the traditional type that are full of application, history, depth and fun to teach because they continue to reveal new knowledge, but I also like the demo - type stuff because they are just fun & cool and pretty, and with application (but those that you have to admit - well, if the person just so happened to be so-and-so tall and you are strong and etc).

I like those aspects for fun but not super - happy about how they fit in martially, and yet...they are part of the system.

Have you encountered these before, and if so, what are your thoughts about them (I mean outside of youtube clips of turtles having orgasms and such :P )?

[bawang]

for me, in chen taiji spear, there are 72 moves but only 24 are spear techniques. i no longer practice the extra movements

two three years ago i would never have even thought of doing that, in fact i would be quite shocked. but after reading ancient military documents with criticism of flowery practice written by war heros i idolized as a child, i did some self reflection

we have to choose the flowery tradition and the fighting tradtition. both traditions are old and legitimate.

[Northwind]

I see what you mean Bawang and agree. However unfortunately when stuck with teaching a style, my view is that I must teach what I was taught. But at the same time I emphasize the workable techniques moreso than the flowers, unless it's a couple of months before CNY - then we focus on flowers - as usually demos are for marketing and the sheep like the flowers, if you know what I mean.

[bawang]

i respect that and theres nothing wrong with that. chinese martial arts community has no strict laws enforcing anything. all i said was my opinion.
for me i understand what is important and what is not important.
letting go of flowery habits is THE hardest thing in kung fu ive done ever.

[Northwind]

Cool. We're on the same page here then. :)

[bawang]

if you use flowery aspects to promote urself, corrupt aspects of kung fu to advertise yourself, thats the type of students u will attract. that will lead to lots of broken dreams and disappointments.

[Northwind]

Definitely true. Finding a balance... ;)

[Lucas]

i respect that and theres nothing wrong with that. chinese martial arts community has no strict laws enforcing anything. all i said was my opinion.
for me i understand what is important and what is not important.
letting go of flowery habits is THE hardest thing in kung fu ive done ever.

word. i went through a similar process myself. i think part of it also has to do with your long term goals. i dont plan to teach. dont really want to. so i dont really 'need' many of the additional things in my training. lion dancing, performing, things of that nature.

[Northwind]

I think that's the gist of alot these questions that crop up; what all this stuff means for you, individually. What you get out of it, what you want to get out of it, what you're doing with it etc.

[No_Know]

.?. Take what you need?

Might be like this...


Case-A
I intend to work so I don't need school so I can drop out or just not go to college or University.


Case-B
I don't need the opposite persuasion for more than momentary entertainment--I'm noit falling in Love. And I don't want kids...so I don't need to save money. Money is for spending.

Case-C
I just want these types of moves 'cause that's what they were using on TV and guys at the school/guy do training not flailing and they do good in the ring...

Case-C (later)
Doctor says I strained core muscle groups and gave me some exercises that I should use to heal and keep me from restraining these--they prep the muscles for the hard moves like I was trying to doand like rotating crops it changes the tension to keep the big moves I like useable.

The stronger these secondary and tertiary muscles are in the right directions the better my preferred moves get in flexibility and strength.

Case-C (later later)
If I throw in the doctor recommended support moves I'm practically doing the School form before I edited it.

Arisen Situation
My car broke down.

Case-B (later) I don't get with the opposite persuasion any more without my flashy stuff. I didn't have money to fix the car and was falling behind on payments because I bought stuff to impress and didn't have the financials for things I didn't see comming or that blindsided me.

Case-A (later)
I lost my job because they upgraded machinery and I didn't have exposure to that equipment like they did at the University....


No_Know

[bawang]

Bawang, the spear form doesnt just teach techniqes of spear on spear, it has techniques against other weapons (which may be useless against a spear) it has techniques from horse back (which requires moving it from one side of the horse to the other), deliberately non lethal techniques, etc etc.


hi rendahai

chen family teaches a spear form called pear flower spear with white monkey staff. 30% of the move leftover is called "wuhua" flower twirling. if it looks like flower twirling and the actual name of the move is flower twirling then i think maybe possibly there is flowery twirling in the form.

u can track change in the form by looking at the oldest training manuals.
u said never change what u r taught. thats actually what im doing.

[Northwind]

No! Are you guys saying ...

No one said any such thing. I was referring to what I prefer and emphasize.

[bawang]

people dont really want to keep tradition. people just want to believe theyre part of something old and mysterious.

[neverfold]

In Kung Fu there are many techniques that when seen in the form can be considered flowery or useless. I was taught this is sometimes done for a reason. These seemingly useless techniques are often diluted and/or used to hide secret application or emphasis. It makes sense to do this kind of trickery. When you are showing off your form and an enemy witnesses it, you don't want them to get the full story and figure out your real power so it can be blocked or used against you. Also it is done for commercial purposes. They teach you something useless but pretty now to keep the flighty and flash oriented students interested then they teach the real form and application to those long time students who care more deeply about kung fu. Meh, just my two cents :P

[bawang]

yes

thats called the southern custom. teaching ppl wrong on purpse. a very shameful practice



The middle link is a trailer for the instructional VCD you can get from PlumPub

I've recently started self teaching myself
lol

[neverfold]

Its shameful to let your enemies know how you plan to defend yourself in a conflict so they have the chance to turn it all against you and win? I agree that teaching people wrong on purpose is not right. But when you are taught that something is wrong for a reason and then explained to why it is so and then shown the secret application or technique behind it, then i don't see the issue.

Also its very shameful of you to take other posts from other topics out of context. Very rude. I have been practicing Kung Fu for 10 years from a great teacher in an excellent school. Just recently have I started self teaching myself more wushu because I am also a stage combatant.

This rudeness seems to be your way as I look through some of your past posts so i'll leave it at this.

[bawang]

let your enemies know how you plan to defend yourself in a conflict so they have the chance to turn it all against you and win?


enemies spy on u performing a form then they come in the night and assinate u because they now know ur secret movez
stop watching kung fu movies lol

[neverfold]

Yeah, you're absolutely right. No more of them crazy kung fu movies for me. Glad someone as great as you has set me straight. I appreciate it greatly, I really do :)

[RenDaHai]

Practicing the form as it was passed is not to do with tradition, I tis accepting the greater wisdom of past masters and trying to unlock their secrets.

@bawang, Wuhua is wuhua, its done with every weapon and with the hands. Its not just a flashy move as such, it represents a lot of things. In application it is never done as in form, but that is because in form you don't have your opponants weapon to get a reaction force from. But your right in a way that wuhua can be added or taken away as needed, you can do just half of 1 circuit or you can do 5 or 10 etc. Although i think the better training would be had by adding more wuhua rather than taking away.....

Its not the same as in the opera twirling because of the way the hands maintain grip on the weapon.

But hey if you can find older teachers or older manuals and get the forms back to how they were, then i'm all for that. Undoing the changes lesser masters have made.... But I just want to explain in principle that a lot of people don't understand moves and then think that the move is worthless, when actually it is their understanding that is lacking, not the move. THis happens a lot in kung fu i see in both the west and in china.

Throwing the spear in the air, doing a somersault and then catching it, thats a flashy move (required in some ziquan contests). Let that put wuhua in perspective.

[Eugene]

@RenDaHai

sorry for the late awnser,

i want to learn the shaolin forms from the oldest sources, maybe someday ill go to Master Shi Yong Wen in a few years.

My main interest is to learn staff techniques from him, that is my fav weapon.
I watched his shaolin gunshu alot, and he uses all kind of different grips.

If I would go ill say it, but that will b in 2 years maybe.

greetings

[Songshan]

if you use flowery aspects to promote urself, corrupt aspects of kung fu to advertise yourself, thats the type of students u will attract. that will lead to lots of broken dreams and disappointments.

Hi Bawang,

I was just curious. Are you aiming your comments or past threads at any one particular school or monk? Or are you just trolling? I don't know, I kind of see some resentment in your posts towards shaolin. I am not asking you to air out dirty laundry but I think most of us can figure out you are not happy with modern shaolin for your personal reason(s). I mean no disrespect to you in any way but I just been kind of noticing your posts lately.