The White Crane/Karate Connection?

[Minghequan]

I'm no expert of White Crane, but I do know something about it. In fact, I chose to make the transition to it from Karatedo/Jutsu.

Like many classical southern-based hand-practices, White Crane vigorously defends the perimeter and centreline with their powerful trapping, bridging and limb manipulation skills. The practices are based upon attack trajectories in proximity to one's position and are evident in their two-person drills, their wooden dummy training and defensive applications.

Oftentimes, I’ve been asked about my position on the origin of karate. I firmly do not believe that Karate can be traced back to Fuzhou cranes because most karate folks have little inkling or none at all about this elemental He Quan Quan Jue.

It is clearly reflected in how they move.

The usual “swallowing, spitting, sinking and floating” that you hear about is really more Fukien, like in Fukien White Crane, Ngo Chor, Tai Chor etc and Shaolin.

Fuzhou Crane on the other hand has got the additional “internal” aspect. This is manifested in all our techniques, principles and Fist Poems.

In Fuzhou Crane, we are taught that techniques are just but a manifestation of our fighting principles. Forms are the ways and not the ends. Every drills / forms and 2 man sets are designed to teach the body to behave in a certain manner during a fight. Of course the whole idea is to mimic a crane.

Fuzhou White Crane is not "Karate" nor is it related to "Hakutsuru."

Many within the martial arts world state that there exists a link from Okinawan Karate to that of Fuzhou White Crane but nothing could be further from the truth.

Fuzhou White Crane as a unique art form and tradition has no verifiable link to Okinawan Karate and even less to that which is commonly termed "Hakutsuru."

Okinawans did not get their materials from Fuzhou. They may have acquired it from Fujian / Taiwan or any other part of China but not Fuzhou.

I believe Karate researchers are better off looking at Ngo Chor (5 Elders) and Tai Chor (Grand Ancestor) rather that White Crane per se. These 2 styles are greatly influenced by Fukien White Crane and these could be their original source. The Tiger Kung Fu is the very one that the Uechi Ryu people align themselves with.

Karate contains very little White Crane. There is some Chinese connection but definitely not White Crane. Most Karate folks talk about Fuzhou White Crane but nothing they do comes close. Goju-Ryu seems more aligned to Ngo Chor. Uechi-Ryu would seem to reflect the essence of Tiger Kung Fu within its technical make-up.

Fuzhou White Crane is a totally unique art and is in no way related to modern "Crane Karate" and "Hakutsuru" as taught by other groups.

Their purported Crane kata are nothing like what we do in Fuzhou White Crane – especially in relation to fundamental root dissimilarities and not stylistics. It would seem that the only thing they obtained out of Fuzhou is the names of their katas.

As for "Hakutsuru", a few think that White Crane is just a couple of crane styles blocks and crane beak hand strikes! Much (if not all) of that passed off as "Hakutsuru" has no relation to real Fuzhou White Crane.

Finally, instead of looking to discover the long lost progenitor style from which about fifty or so Okinawan Karate Kata had come to look through the cultural differences and target individual templates; old-style forms (Taolu/Kata) brought together various templates and often were reconfigured to suit the "user."

[Dragonzbane76]

is this going to be a continuation of the previous thread, if so probably not a good idea and it will probably be locked.

[Minghequan]

Dragonzbane76,

I hope not. I am here only for discussion of martial arts, not politics. Do you have any thoughts on the subject matter? Thank you.

[Dragonzbane76]

not really, i've only bumped into a hand full of White crane practitioners. And considering your post I believe they were more karate than what you stated you practice. I saw some of the forms from what they practiced and they did not look KF IMO.

You state its a southern style? Probably my ignorance in the matter but I always percieved it to be a northern. Probably way off on that, but enlighten me if you will. :)

[TenTigers]

There is Southern-Fukien White Crane, and Northern/Tibetan White Crane, inc. Hop-Ga and Lama P'ai.

[Minghequan]

Dragonzbane76,

As TenTigeers wrte there are other forms of White Crane such as Tibetan (more Northern) Pa Hok.

Given your description most probably what you cam across was "Hakutsuru" Okinawan based White Crane which is fairly similar to most Karatedo and I believe a recently "modern' invention.

[goju]

im a goju ryu stylist but ive never put much thought into what my art was influenced by in china


it was likely a giant variety of thing considering the amount of time miyagi and kanryo higaonna spent studying kung fu in china ( i believe higaonna was in fuzhou for quite some time and may have studied whooping crane)

[hungmunhingdai]

I'm no expert of White Crane, but I do know something about it. In fact, I chose to make the transition to it from Karatedo/Jutsu.

Like many classical southern-based hand-practices, White Crane vigorously defends the perimeter and centreline with their powerful trapping, bridging and limb manipulation skills. The practices are based upon attack trajectories in proximity to one's position and are evident in their two-person drills, their wooden dummy training and defensive applications.

Oftentimes, I’ve been asked about my position on the origin of karate. I firmly do not believe that Karate can be traced back to Fuzhou cranes because most karate folks have little inkling or none at all about this elemental He Quan Quan Jue.

It is clearly reflected in how they move.

The usual “swallowing, spitting, sinking and floating” that you hear about is really more Fukien, like in Fukien White Crane, Ngo Chor, Tai Chor etc and Shaolin.

Fuzhou Crane on the other hand has got the additional “internal” aspect. This is manifested in all our techniques, principles and Fist Poems.

In Fuzhou Crane, we are taught that techniques are just but a manifestation of our fighting principles. Forms are the ways and not the ends. Every drills / forms and 2 man sets are designed to teach the body to behave in a certain manner during a fight. Of course the whole idea is to mimic a crane.

Fuzhou White Crane is not "Karate" nor is it related to "Hakutsuru."

Many within the martial arts world state that there exists a link from Okinawan Karate to that of Fuzhou White Crane but nothing could be further from the truth.

Fuzhou White Crane as a unique art form and tradition has no verifiable link to Okinawan Karate and even less to that which is commonly termed "Hakutsuru."

Okinawans did not get their materials from Fuzhou. They may have acquired it from Fujian / Taiwan or any other part of China but not Fuzhou.

I believe Karate researchers are better off looking at Ngo Chor (5 Elders) and Tai Chor (Grand Ancestor) rather that White Crane per se. These 2 styles are greatly influenced by Fukien White Crane and these could be their original source. The Tiger Kung Fu is the very one that the Uechi Ryu people align themselves with.

Karate contains very little White Crane. There is some Chinese connection but definitely not White Crane. Most Karate folks talk about Fuzhou White Crane but nothing they do comes close. Goju-Ryu seems more aligned to Ngo Chor. Uechi-Ryu would seem to reflect the essence of Tiger Kung Fu within its technical make-up.

Fuzhou White Crane is a totally unique art and is in no way related to modern "Crane Karate" and "Hakutsuru" as taught by other groups.

Their purported Crane kata are nothing like what we do in Fuzhou White Crane – especially in relation to fundamental root dissimilarities and not stylistics. It would seem that the only thing they obtained out of Fuzhou is the names of their katas.

As for "Hakutsuru", a few think that White Crane is just a couple of crane styles blocks and crane beak hand strikes! Much (if not all) of that passed off as "Hakutsuru" has no relation to real Fuzhou White Crane.

Finally, instead of looking to discover the long lost progenitor style from which about fifty or so Okinawan Karate Kata had come to look through the cultural differences and target individual templates; old-style forms (Taolu/Kata) brought together various templates and often were reconfigured to suit the "user."

what is this based on - any reference works or just your own speculations .

[Kevin73]

One of the texts that was heavily relied upon by early Okinawan karate masters was called the "Bubishi". It was sort of their "bible" for karate and was held in high regard.

Many of the articles included in the text discuss different types of crane styles and ideas. So the early okinawans were at least influenced by crane strategies. That does not mean that their physical movements were from a crane style though.

The okinawans also had their own indiginous fighting art and incorporated elements of kung fu into it. Who knows how much they kept or altered to fit into their approach.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Pat Mcarthy has done much research on the subject.
Kevin mentioned the Bubishi and that also can lend some info to the subject.
I am a Nidan in Kyokushin and a Shodan in Okinawan Goju and have had the chance to train under Morio Higaonna a few times and in His view the Fukien White Crane influence is a fact.
The same was stated by a few other high ranking Okinawan Goju guys.
Personally I see some of the stuff from Fukien WC and some from the "Five ancetors" fist and this is not only in Goju but Uechi-ryu as well.
I think this is a case of a hybrid system being created by blending the indigineus "te" with probably a couple of systems of Fukien MA and maybe even a few different versions of WC and Five Ancestors.

[chusauli]

IMO, I feel the Okinawan Shorin Ryu systems were adapted for personal use based on some Chinese sets (like San Chin and Seisan), and they created sets that emphasized a teacher's movements (sets like Wanshu, Kushanku, Chinto), a concept (Passai), or inspired by the Bubishi (Hakutsura, Gojushiho).

As for Fujian Nan Quan based systems, Uechi Ryu and Goju Ryu represent Okinawa-zation of Chinese systems. Uechi is an incomplete Tiger Fist (no Suparunpei 108), and Goju Ryu a fusion of several Fujian Nan Quan (but probably with a root of Sanchin, Seisan, San Sei Ryu and Suparunpei as one based system from Higaonna Kanryo), then add on sets from other systems (Seipai, Kururunfa, Seiunchin) or created by Miyagi Chojun (Saifa, Tensho, Gekisai).

As for Ngo Cho Kun - I seriously doubt it was an ancestor, as it is too recent, but is composed of popular root based Fujian Nan Quan (i.e. Lo Han, Tai Jo, White Crane).

And as for White Crane directly being an ancestor, I doubt it. The only thing that would indicate White Crane is the Bubishi (A White Crane Quan Pu) and the fact that Go Ken Ki (A Fujian Ming He Quan practitioner) taught several instructors at the Tode Kenkyukai Research group sponsored by Miyagi Chojun.

White Crane is no direct ancestor of Okinawan Karate. Karate does not even share White Crane's basic forms - a look at Shan Zhan of White Crane and SanChin of Goju or Uechi will shoew they derive from a different system, but share the same name.

[Minghequan]

Shorin or Shuri-te derived karate has little if any link to any of the White Crane styles. Naha-te (Gojuryu) I think has some clear links but I also think these links are largely generic and so a better statement would be that Naha-te is influenced by southern Chinese Kung Fu than White Crane per se.

Let me please qualify how I can make such statements. I have trained in Shorinryu and Gojuryu Karate and also White crane. Therefore I am in a unique position to talk about each form.I firmly believe that most of the "White Crane" in Karate is more marketing than substance.

I think the hype surrounding White Crane in Karate arises from the fact that many Karate schools have (for various reasons) touted their "most advanced forms" as White Crane. This is misleading/erroneous on a number of counts.

As for a connection of White Crane to Gojuryu, I don't see it. Alexander L. Co author of the "Five Ancestor Fist Kung-Fu, The Way of Ngo Cho Kun" (Charles E Tuttle Publications ISBN 0-8048-3153-X) believes and writes that Gojuryu was influenced by Ngo Cho Kun, not White Crane.

SanZhan, Saam Chien is seen in a wide variety of Chinese Kung-Fu styles so its entirely probable that any one of these styles may have influenced Gojuryu in the development of the Sanchin form.

As for the other Gojuryu forms there is no counterpart to be found within White Crane to those said forms.

Lastly and with due respect, what aspects of actual White Crane has had an influence on Karate and in particular Gojuryu? What of the techniques, concepts, principles and poems of the fist of White Crane can be seen within Gojuryu? Please give or cite actual examples?

For instance you could view White Crane as a set of the following:

1) A series of Forms
2) A series of Jin / Jings that are trained and then manifest themselves throughout the Forms
3) A set of principles and theories that are applied when using the Forms, Jins, Jings

So now consider, is it possible that you could simply replace the crane forms and the Jin/Jing with other forms and a different way of animating the limbs and still incorporate the principles and theories of White Crane?

I believe the above is one possible explanation and why you may only see very few if any readily identifiable Crane forms in the Kata lexicon and why they are not physically performed as White Crane.

Each form in our White Crane has three levels of the same form:

1/. The basic pattern and movements of that form 套路 (Taolu. Taolu is a performance of set offensive and defensive Wushu movements based on Chinese Martial Arts principles)

2/. Understanding the energy (Jing精 and Jin勁) and concepts/principles of that form.

3/ The "Yong fa" or martial arts applications (武术应用) of that form combined with the energy of that form.

Tao or truth (the “Way”) is that which we know not the manner of. It can therefore be “felt” only by an intuitive perception.

Forms embody Chinese philosophy such as “the method of dragonflies skimming the waters surface” (lightness of touch), “the method of painting a dragon and dotting its eyes” (bringing out the forms salient points), “the method of goping straight into the fray with one knife” (direct opening and attack), The method of announcing a campaign on the east and marching to the west” (surprise attack) etc.

“明眼人一看开礼便会分晓是那一家拳术了”

Or translated: “For those who know, one look at the opening salute will tell the family of the art”.

This is almost like the other popular CKF saying:-
“One move and the experienced will know whether it’s true or not”.

They (the forms) contain all the elements of fighting or as I prefer to term it “life-protection”. Such applications take the form of:

• Quan 拳 Fist
• Shu 手 Hand
• Zhang 掌 Palm
• Zhi 指 Fingers
• Gou 勾 Couplings
• Zhua 爪 Claws
• JiBen BuXing 基本步型 Positions fundamental
• JiBen GongFa LianXi 基本功法练习 Exercises of base
• JinTui Bu DeLian XiFangFa 进退步的练习方法 conditioning of the arms
• PanBaFa DeLian XiFangFa 盘八法的练习方法 8 points of push of the hands
• Qin Zhuang LianFang GongFa 擒撞练方功法 to take and to hit
• JeDaLiang Fang GongFa 解打练方功法 - to interrupt attack
• The seizing, manipulation, and or striking of nerve plexus, arteries and weak points.
• Blood and air strangulations.
• Applying pressure to muscle and tendons. Ma Chiu.
• How to twist bones and lock joints. Ma Chiu.
• Grappling, counters, escapes, take downs, throws and break falling.
• The use of the voice (Gunshen / Nahan).
• Push hands (Tui Shou).
• Understanding engagement distance and how to utlise the space established through body change.
• The principles of balance and leading control.
• Defensive intiative and the levels of combative intiative.
• Muscular expansion and contraction. Rotation of the hips and the summantion of joint forces for effective application of technique.
• Force vectors.
• Cultivation of Qi. Understanding of Qi
• Mental alertness and continued domination.
• The principle of resiliency and the willingness to bend in the winds of adversity.
• Transcending the thoughts of life and death.

And a great deal more than can be listed here.

Combining all this with using the form as a vehicle of personal introspection, it becomes perfectly clear how a single form represents an entire fighting tradition.

Please keep in mind that forms are the means by which the ancients masters had transmitted their knowledge and secrets down throughout the generations.

As for "Hakutsuru" I have spent a considerable amount of time, money and sweat seeking it out including training in same in Naha-shi, Okinawa. My conclusion is that largely in the Karate world that "Hakutsuru" is a modern invention by those who which to have some form of mystical, magical connection to something "secret" and is by an large a Modern creation based on marketing.

I do not mean to dismiss your views or to be disrespectful to anyone .

[Minghequan]

Perhaps the only identifiable link that may be used to establish any kind of link between Karate and White Crane is the Wubei Zhi, a compendium of topics loosely related to the Fujian-based quanfa traditions of Yongchun White Crane and Monk Fist boxing probably dates from the mid-to-late Qing dynasty (1644–1911). It contains anatomical diagrams, philosophical essays, defensive tactical strategies, and poetry. No author is known; the book is most likely a collection of pieces from various sources put together by an anonymous editor. It was popular in Okinawa among Okinawan-based Quanfa practitioners during the 19th and early 20th centuries. notice I say Quanfa and not Karate practitioners. Even it is loosely put together and provides no 100% verifiable link between Gojuryu and White Crane.

The famed Gokenki (Wu Xian Hui) did not teach the Rokkishu or SanZhan forms but was actually attributed to the teaching of three actual forms by his student Itoman Shojo (born 1924). Those three forms were Babulian, Ershibada and Zhongkuan none of which feature in Gojuryu Karate in the modern tradition as passed down today.

T'oon Ryu however have retained the Ershibada form terming it Nepai.

[Kevin73]

just so people can see, the first two are white crane versions of sanchin and the next is uechi ryu and then goju ryu. You can see them done side by side.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWh-uhw4C9s&feature=PlayList&p=82BB14FF1E800689&index=8

Also, note that the original version of Sanchin taught in Goju ryu taught by Kanryo Higaonna, is not the same version as what Miyagi passed on later and is still done now.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Hakutsuru was a creation of Okinawan Goju, it was a "lineage" Kata.
Basically, if you knew it, it meant you were "high up".

[goju]

just so people can see, the first two are white crane versions of sanchin and the next is uechi ryu and then goju ryu. You can see them done side by side.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWh-uhw4C9s&feature=PlayList&p=82BB14FF1E800689&index=8

Also, note that the original version of Sanchin taught in Goju ryu taught by Kanryo Higaonna, is not the same version as what Miyagi passed on later and is still done now.


yes miyagi closed the fists and didnt add the turns


:D

[Kevin73]

yes miyagi closed the fists and didnt add the turns


:D

Correct, he also changed the breathing method.

[sanjuro_ronin]

There are 2 sanchins in Okinawan Goju, one with turns and one without them and their are 4 methods of breathing in sanchin.

[goju]

all methods of the sanchin seem to work equally good as well

i know theres a bit of debate about the closed fist one or if the okinwawans were taught sanchin correctly but its pretty much rubbish:D

[TenTigers]

if you look at the Uechi version, the Goju open-hands (no turns) version, and Fukien White Crane versions, they are extremely similar. Especially the Yung Chun Bai-He Sanzhen (Samjien)

[TenTigers]

YouTube - Yong Chun Bai He Chuen - Sanzhan (Sanjan)

[chusauli]

Hakutsuru was a creation of Okinawan Goju, it was a "lineage" Kata.
Basically, if you knew it, it meant you were "high up".

The ShoreiKan version is made up by Toguchi. The Japanese Goju kata Hakutsura is made up by Yamaguchi.

Some branches of Goju Ryu learned Neipai from Gokenki; Toon Ryu preserves it as well.

I agree fully, most of the Hakutsura Kata today is just made up and bears nothing of the Fujian White Crane power signatures, salutation, or principles. The Okinawans just wanted to preserve homage to the Bubishi.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The Okinawans are very japanese in this:
Take something of someone elses and make it your own.
Using Miyagi as an example ( Chojun not Pat Morita), he trained in Fukien )probably) and probably in a white crane system, maybe even some other one too ( jsut specualting since there is not much proof) he then took what he liked and modified it and made it Okinawan.
He kept enough that made it similar but created a whole "new" beast.
Sanchin is the "same" as the other "thee steps" in the sense that it is about: Solid stance ( even if different), and correct breathing (various modes).
The other details are relevant IF ALL "San" forms were the same EXCEPT the okinawans and that is not the case anyways.