Wing Chun and Tai Chi Chuan

[Ghaldszar]

Hello

I am 5.SG EBMAS Practitioner and have been training almost 1,5 years.
I am interested in Traditional Training Methods of WC; therefore I want to begin a Tai Chi Chuan course.

What do you think about it?
IS there any advantage of learning basic Tai Chi Chuan for Wing Chun Training

[Scott R. Brown]

The value you receive will be in proportion to the value you choose to get out of it.

You will find people voicing support for and against your intention, but the truth of the matter is, the only limitations you have are the ones you impose on yourself or the ones others impose on you that you accept.

Do what feels right to you and learn as you go. If you are not getting anything out of it stop for a time, if you do get something out of it, there will be your answer.:)

[sanjuro_ronin]

The value you receive will be in proportion to the value you choose to get out of it.

You will find people voicing support for and against your intention, but the truth of the matter is, the only limitations you have are the ones you impose on yourself or the ones others impose on you that you accept.

Do what feels right to you and learn as you go. If you are not getting anything out of it stop for a time, if you do get something out of it, there will be your answer.:)

Game, set and match.

[Scott R. Brown]

Game, set and match.

I bow to the wisdom of your recognition of the wisdom of my words!

:eek::confused:

[kfson]

http://www.patiencetaichi.com/public/104.cfm

[chusauli]

Try learning WCK for WCK, rather than Tai Ji for WCK.

But if you're interested in Tai Ji Quan, go right ahead. But find someone who knows how to use it according to the methods of Tai Ji Quan, and not just plays a form.

[Hendrik]

Try learning WCK for WCK, rather than Tai Ji for WCK.

But if you're interested in Tai Ji Quan, go right ahead. But find someone who knows how to use it according to the methods of Tai Ji Quan, and not just plays a form.


Yup. totally agree.

Dont waste time to do Tai ji quan for WCK, it only add to confusion.

[JPinAZ]

Dont waste time to do Tai ji quan for WCK, it only add to confusion.

At least we now know why you always sound so confused in your posts - you're mixing different stuff with your WCK all the time! :D

[Scott R. Brown]

At least we now know why you always sound so confused in your posts - you're mixing different stuff with your WCK all the time! :D

I agree, and I think it demonstrates ignorance when people say learning "this" with "that" will only confuse the student!

That is like saying learning "kicks" with "strikes" will only confuse the student.

Yes, it is confusing for someone who only trains kicks or only trains strikes, and then adds the other skill, but once they are taught together, after the initial confusion, they are integrated and confusion disappears.

The differences between marital arts styles are arbitrarily set by the ignorant. There is no inherent difference that one does not impose on themselves and/or their students.

[YungChun]

TaiChi is cool.. Years ago I read an amazing TC book and some of it seemed to apply to what I was doing in my WCK training.. However, TC appears to use a different kind of core motion and mechanics and strategy.. That being the case--a different core--I would question how useful TC is going to be for learning WCK...assuming that was the stated goal.

[Scott R. Brown]

TaiChi is cool.. Years ago I read an amazing TC book and some of it seemed to apply to what I was doing in my WCK training.. However, TC appears to use a different kind of core motion and mechanics and strategy.. That being the case--a different core--I would question how useful TC is going to be for learning WCK...assuming that was the stated goal.

If nothing else one is not bound by an attachment to one kind of movement.

Think of it as broadening ones horizons. Sort of like learning a new language. You may never go to the country that speaks the new language, but the understanding gained from it helps one to understand language in general!

[bennyvt]

its a matter me what you want. Do you not think you are learning vt properly and what do you think you will get out of the tai chi. The waist is very important and learning two opposite things at the same time makes it harder for the body too build the reflex action needed. The language idea is more if you taught a child two different ways of saying hello which one will he use?

[Scott R. Brown]

...learning two opposite things at the same time makes it harder for the body too build the reflex action needed.

This is a highly individual thing. It might be hard for you, but not for all people. It is actually relatively easy to learn a number of skills at once. What do you think dancers do, or gymnasts, or what children that play football, basketball and baseball are doing? They are learning different skill sets all in succession and pretty much at the same time!


The language idea is more if you taught a child two different ways of saying hello which one will he use?

You do not know what you are talking about here!

[YungChun]

I'd have to disagree.. Less is more in fighting..with the exception of those skills which relate say to different ranges, like boxing vs grappling, each compliment each other..

However when talking about learning WCK TC is not going to enable WCK learning anymore than French studies would enhance Japanese.

Ever heard of hicks law?


the time it takes for a person to make a decision as a result of the possible choices he or she has
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hick%27s_law

Tony Blauer used to talk about folks who studied arts that advertised hundreds or even thousands of techniques.. He said yeah, in other words the art of having no clue what (which response) to do..

When we need to act and have more than a couple of choices the response time increases. More options sounds lovely, like a bowl of fruit, but if the poster is interested in learning WCK then the best way to do that is to find a good teacher of WCK..

Likewise if the person wants to learn TC the best way to do that is the same. It's hard enough to get skills in one without jumbling them up esp in the early stages. If one wants to speak Japanese one is best advised to go to Japan and stay there a while, not tour Europe..

[Scott R. Brown]

I see what you are saying....the original question is will tcc help with wck, however, since the end goal is to learn to fight effectively I took the extra step to this end purpose and believe that learning any other martial art including tcc, will assist with this purpose as would many other athletic endeavors including dance. Of course that assumes an effective ttc instructor and wck instructor in this particular case.

In fact learning any additional physical skill set would assist one with their original skill set. I have noted over my many years of MA training that most practitioners are not really athletes of any sort and do not fully understand physical skill sets enough to make the judgments some are making here.

I have been a state class swimmer and water polo player, a diver, a gymnast, a dancer ( I was offered a dance scholarship to UCLA) as well as trained in multiple, say 5-10 different martial arts systems. I have a solid basis for making the comments I have. Take them or leave them as you like. I am confident in my conclusions since I have seen them proven true on many occasions as well as having personal experience that they are accurate assessments!:)

If others cannot see the benefits of learning two different languages then they are woefully uneducated concerning the delicacies of linguistics and there is nothing I can do to convince them. If one merely learns the languages without taking the time to understand linguistics they could not hope to understand my point. Either you understand it or you don't!:)

Once you have learned a few different languages it is easier to learn more, this is not because one has a good memory, it is because they have developed a good sense of linguistics and grammar structure just as when one learns a few different physical skill sets, they may much more quickly learn and understand others. Each skill set broadens ones abilities making one able to learn further ones more quickly and practice them with more effectiveness.

Of course it takes experience, intelligence and a desire to understand the underlying principles of the learned skill sets. Not everyone has these abilities, or desire to do so, and therefore would not necessarily understand the benefits.

As I said in my original post:


The value you receive will be in proportion to the value you choose to get out of it.

You will find people voicing support for and against your intention, but the truth of the matter is, the only limitations you have are the ones you impose on yourself or the ones others impose on you that you accept.

Do what feels right to you and learn as you go. If you are not getting anything out of it stop for a time, if you do get something out of it, there will be your answer.

[ZenMindT]

I did chong style for just over a yeare when i was still pretty young in WC (and still am). My WC was not quit developed and found that i would somtimes mesh the 2 and end up with somthing that was not quit either, being that the structers where completly diffrent.

Get really good at one, get it to your core. Then, if you still wish, learn the other.

[-木叶-]

Tai Chi Quan will complement your Wing Chun, definitely. It is the same vice versa.

[David Jamieson]

I practice the following:

Sil Lum Hark Fu (two separate lineages)
Bak Sil Lum
Yang Tai Chi (long and short / old and adapted)
Beijing 24 taichi
mixed martial arts
qigong (various sources)
neigong (sil lum)

I have been taught and have learned:

Isshin ryu karate do (brown belt)
Tae Kwon Do (black belt)
Fencing (epee, sabre and foil)
Boxing (i have a juv record in this as well)
GR wrestling (inter-provincial levels)

None of them interfere with any. Most can be practiced in the same 2 hour session. All bring a lot to the table

The whole idea of not expanding is a lie. However, the idea of rushing through any given art to get to the next one is counter productive as well. I have only learned so many things because i am mid forties and have been doing these endeavours since i was 9 yrs old with the encouragement of my father and my early teachers.

[Hendrik]

Here are the bottom lines.

1, Taiji Chuan alone, There are atleast 4 different types of power generation based on the lineage (IE Chen, Yang, Wu...) range from totally let go to using the medirians.

2, WCK alone, there are more then a few different types of power geneartion based on the lineage (IE pivoting, non pivoting, different pivoting....) range from totally rigid and heavy rely on stance and muscular like Hung Gar to extremely dynamic as the Emei 12 Zhuang.


Now, each of these power generation type is influencing or determining the application methods. IE: one drive a 4 wheel drive different then a front wheel drive or reel wheel drive.

These creates hundreds of differences in applications combinations which suit one lineage but not suit other lineage.
there is no way for even a senior martial artists to sort these out if he is not train up to an advance state with the key sifus of the lineage to know and handle the key pro and con or even mistake in these lineages.

It is hopeless and a total mess for any junior or even senior martial artists to speculate and makes believe due to one can mimic some move in WCK or Taijichuan one knows the art.


So, why the heck one wants to get into these confusion and going no where but mess and chaotic creation deal of learning taijichuan for WingChunkuen?


The fastest way one can really learn an art great is to go to the best of the best in that lineage and let him coach one if the best of the best willing to teach. So, that get into the Bai Si which I always mention in my post but most take it wrongly.


Forget about mind speculation, objective thinking, critical thinking.... all those thinking and thinking, reading and reading books..... if one want the art, get a master to coach one. otherwise it is cheating oneself.

[Ghaldszar]

I have thought TCC and WCK as Latin and Italian not French and Japanese.
Studying Latin While you are learning Italian (of course after a specific level of Italian studying) helps you to improve control and have more success on speaking.
Because Latin is root of italian language.
I am thinking in the same way about TCC and WCK because TCC is one of the main roots of many Martial Arts of China like WCK
I had met a Sifu, who is traditional WCK System Instructor, thru his detailed blog site about WCK. One day while we have been chatting he told me that
a sifu always had to know TCC, may be a student hadn't but a sifu definetely had to..
From that day I have always thought to learn TCC
is it a bad or nonsense decision
or
do I know something wrong?


PS.
Sorry for my English
Explaining what I think makes me really sweat with my english level.

[Scott R. Brown]

From that day I have always thought to learn TCC
is it a bad or nonsense decision
or
do I know something wrong?

Hi Ghaldszar,

The thing to do is to try it. Find a good tcc teacher and give it a shot. It is likely, if you are a beginner you will experience some confusion. But if you stick with it you will be fine. There is no reason you cannot do both at the same time. This "only one martial art at a time" thing is an old tradition that no longer applies and many people have not out grown that teaching. It has to do with old Chinese traditions. Even in old China they cross trained in different arts, however.

Try it, if you like it continue, if you do not find another instructor or wait for a time and take it up again later.

These decisions are highly individual.

[anerlich]

I have thought TCC and WCK as Latin and Italian not French and Japanese.

I know what you are saying, but in some ways you might be better learning two dissimilar arts with little in common - there's less intersection to get confused over.

Most people end up learnig a bit of this and that due to changes in circumstances anyway.

Life's too short not to try things you are interested in.

My first KF style was a mix of WC, Choy Li Fut and Northern Sil Lum. The teacher didn't have much trouble fighting or generating power, and nor did his students.

Specialization is for insects.

[YungChun]

Try learning WCK for WCK, rather than Tai Ji for WCK.


Seems like common sense to me... JMO.

And then so does Hick's Law..

[Hardwork108]

Hello

I am 5.SG EBMAS Practitioner and have been training almost 1,5 years.
I am interested in Traditional Training Methods of WC; therefore I want to begin a Tai Chi Chuan course.

What do you think about it?
IS there any advantage of learning basic Tai Chi Chuan for Wing Chun Training

I would personally recommend that you stick to Wing Chun and study it in a good school then build a solid understanding of it. If you then have the extra time and feel the desire, or the need, then you can consider training Tai Chi.

I don't believe that mixing the two is a good idea from the beginning.

HW108

[SAAMAG]

Hello

I am 5.SG EBMAS Practitioner and have been training almost 1,5 years.
I am interested in Traditional Training Methods of WC; therefore I want to begin a Tai Chi Chuan course.

What do you think about it?
IS there any advantage of learning basic Tai Chi Chuan for Wing Chun Training

The idea that practicing more than one art inhibits the learning of another is for the most part false. There are many that have disproven the theory of "jack of all trades is a master of none".

So I'd say try it. If it proves to be enlightening for you then you will continue to do it. If you find that learning two things at once is too much, then you should stop and focus on one or the other.

It's ultimately up to you and how well you're able to assimilate it all into your toolshed.

[Ghaldszar]

In fact I dont want to specialize to two marital art at the same time. I want to learn TCC to improve my skills for WCK like using chi, solving stance problems and improving balance and coordination. Especially I want to soften the movements at attack and defence. I want to train chi sao without less tighten.

like Bruce Lee' s quote which is about being like water.
:P

Additionally
If I want to learn TCC compeletely including martial art side, I cant because in the city I live I can' t find Martial Art Course what I want. Now I can only find a beginner level course which contains 10 moves and Chi Kung etc...


in the past in Shaollin
TCC was taught to everyone who was training martial arts or not. On the other hand, Martial art of ancient times was splited and is known seperate names this day.
For example at Japanese arts
At the beginning one martial art had become Aikido, kendo, Iaido, Judo, ju Jitsu and etc... All those new arts growed a lot after split and increased number of technics. thats why I don't understand why they said not to train two arts same time in old times.

I hope I can tell the frame of my mind



I would personally recommend that you stick to Wing Chun and study it in a good school then build a solid understanding of it. If you then have the extra time and feel the desire, or the need, then you can consider training Tai Chi.

I don't believe that mixing the two is a good idea from the beginning.

HW108

Hardwork108
May be you are right
I am at the beginning of WCK and beginning to train another art can be confusing. But in this instance I cant decide which level I train WCK is enough for beginning a new thing?
What do you think?

[YungChun]

In fact I dont want to specialize to two marital art at the same time. I want to learn TCC to improve my skills for WCK like using chi, solving stance problems and improving balance and coordination.


That's what I read... While several have said one won't interfere with the other, that is not what you asked..

No, IMO the TC will not help you learn WCK, plain and simple because TCC is not WCK nor is it real close...

It's very hard to find good TMA instruction.. That alone is task enough for any art.

[sanjuro_ronin]

That's what I read... While several have said one won't interfere with the other, that is not what you asked..

No, IMO the TC will not help you learn WCK, plain and simple because TCC is not WCK nor is it real close...

It's very hard to find good TMA instruction.. That alone is task enough for any art.

Yung is correct.
While Tai chi will benefit you in a variety of ways, it will not DIRECTLY benefit your WC.
Think it like this, while swimming will benefit your WC because you will get in better shape in general, it will not have a DIRECT influence on your WC.

[kfson]

I would personally recommend that you stick to Wing Chun and study it in a good school then build a solid understanding of it. If you then have the extra time and feel the desire, or the need, then you can consider training Tai Chi.

I don't believe that mixing the two is a good idea from the beginning.

HW108

I was hesitating to say the same... from experience.

[Hendrik]

Originally Posted by Ghaldszar View Post
In fact I dont want to specialize to two marital art at the same time.


I want to learn TCC to improve my skills for WCK like using chi, solving stance problems and improving balance and coordination.


This is a total dead trap.


1, the thought process is confusing.

2, ask 95% of TCC player here, none of them knows Chi but dance, they can call themself a master, instructor....etc. but Zero Chi experience beside talk.

3, Solving stance problems, improving balance...? You move the same with TCC in WCK you dead.


Face it, one cant fantasy like this. A waste of life.

It is none of my business anyone wants to keep fantasy and talk smart. But for those 5% who is serious. Dont wasting your life to do screw up.

[Hardwork108]

Hardwork108
May be you are right
I am at the beginning of WCK and beginning to train another art can be confusing. But in this instance I cant decide which level I train WCK is enough for beginning a new thing?
What do you think?

That is not an easy question. Personally speaking I would wait until completion of Biu Jee to even think about starting a new system. This way most of the Wing Chun system will be "imprinted" in your mind and body.

There are kung fu masters out there who are masters in more than one system. However, it is my understanding that they started by completing and mastering one style before going to study the next one. I am sure that there are exceptions to this but the logical way would be to complete or at least almost compete and then go to another.

I do realize that you say that you are considering Tai chi as a way of improving or helping your Wing Chun studies but then you will also need to consider how best to use your limited time. For example, one may ask why train WC 3 times a week and then perhaps Tai Chi twice, if you can train WC 5 times a week which would probably be more beneficial in the long term?

Of course if it were a case of your Wing Chun sifu having knowledge of Tai Chi and only prescribing exercises that were to be relevant to your Wing Chun then perhaps you could get away with mixing the two.

To be honest though, if you are lucky enough to have a genuine Wing Chun sifu then you will be ahead of most people who practice Wing Chun in the Western world. That means sticking to Wing Chun and training hard will be all you would need to make your kung fu powerful.:)

EDIT: It is also worth mentioning that Wing Chun's Internal training will also train your "Chi". The practice of Siu Lim Tao, the first form, is on one level dedicated to this, but again, you will need to train in genuine Wing Chun methodology.

[wtxs]

To Ghaldszar ...



Here are the bottom lines.

1, Taiji Chuan alone, There are atleast 4 different types of power generation based on the lineage (IE Chen, Yang, Wu...) range from totally let go to using the medirians.

2, WCK alone, there are more then a few different types of power geneartion based on the lineage (IE pivoting, non pivoting, different pivoting....) range from totally rigid and heavy rely on stance and muscular like Hung Gar to extremely dynamic as the Emei 12 Zhuang.


Now, each of these power generation type is influencing or determining the application methods. IE: one drive a 4 wheel drive different then a front wheel drive or reel wheel drive.

These creates hundreds of differences in applications combinations which suit one lineage but not suit other lineage.
there is no way for even a senior martial artists to sort these out if he is not train up to an advance state with the key sifus of the lineage to know and handle the key pro and con or even mistake in these lineages.

It is hopeless and a total mess for any junior or even senior martial artists to speculate and makes believe due to one can mimic some move in WCK or Taijichuan one knows the art.


So, why the heck one wants to get into these confusion and going no where but mess and chaotic creation deal of learning taijichuan for WingChunkuen?


The fastest way one can really learn an art great is to go to the best of the best in that lineage and let him coach one if the best of the best willing to teach. So, that get into the Bai Si which I always mention in my post but most take it wrongly.


Forget about mind speculation, objective thinking, critical thinking.... all those thinking and thinking, reading and reading books..... if one want the art, get a master to coach one. otherwise it is cheating oneself.


In your current level of training, please do follow Hendrik's advise. His logic and reasoning applies in your situation.

If you really wants to learn Tai Chi concurrently with your WC, try to find an teacher that is knowledgeable with the combative side of Tai Chi ... good luck ...

[Hendrik]

EDIT: It is also worth mentioning that Wing Chun's Internal training will also train your "Chi". The practice of Siu Lim Tao, the first form, is on one level dedicated to this, but again, you will need to train in genuine Wing Chun methodology.



Lots of Chi Chi Chi Chi being said and lots of Siu Lim Tao Chi Chi chi.


You know, lots of fantasy.

We know by evidence in 1850 there is Chi cultivation in SLT.

But then, so, could anyone tell me HOW?

I said fantasy because there is no HOW but keep saying Chi Chi chi Chi like mantra.
It is not going to get you anywhere. and live alone, figthing and combat.

What is Chi ?

How is one going to get it?

Until that resolve, forget about it.



http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=996586&postcount=61





Your heart, what confuses it so?
perhaps, Ms Wing Chun needs to keep singing this song to the some WCners.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRe4Dk327wg&feature=related

[Hardwork108]

We know by evidence in 1850 there is Chi cultivation in SLT.

But then, so, could anyone tell me HOW?
I have been taught to do this by practicing SLT (and other qigong, including night time practice) without a thinking trail in a correct and relaxed manner. I am still trying to get to the no mind stage and I am using the advice you gave me in another thread (thanks again for that).

I am using relaxed Dantien breathing. In time i have felt energy/tingling and heat. I am still at beginning stages so I can't say too much.

[bennyvt]

sorry man just because you were an athlete doesn't nean you know anything about learning and the way to teach people. And if you thought that you would take a step and turn it into how to be a better fighter why exactly would you even advise tai chi.

[Scott R. Brown]

sorry man just because you were an athlete doesn't nean you know anything about learning and the way to teach people. And if you thought that you would take a step and turn it into how to be a better fighter why exactly would you even advise tai chi.

Hi Dipsh!t,

I have taught martial arts, yoga and tumbling, coached swimmers, and trained athletes and the general public in weight training, so nice try mouthing off about what you know nothing about! I have also trained in Tai Chi and about half a dozen other martial arts over 37 years, but not WC!

So before you spout off about what you know nothing about to someone who has done it ALL first hand and knows for sure it is okay to train in multiple skills sets at the same time because he has done it and taught it to others, learn to do something yourself and become an expert in it first before you think to educate your betters!

Addendum:

Oh Yeah...just because you do not understand any of the martial aspects of Tai Chi doesn't mean no one else does!!

[Hendrik]

Hi Dipsh!t,

I have taught martial arts, yoga and tumbling, coached swimmers, and trained athletes and the general public in weight training, so nice try mouthing off about what you know nothing about! I have also trained in Tai Chi and about half a dozen other martial arts over 37 years, but not WC!

So before you spout off about what you know nothing about to someone who has done it ALL first hand and knows for sure it is okay to train in multiple skills sets at the same time because he has done it and taught it to others, learn to do something yourself and become an expert in it first before you think to educate your betters!

Addendum:

Oh Yeah...just because you do not understand any of the martial aspects of Tai Chi doesn't mean no one else does!!


Sorry to Say 37 years means nothing for WCK,

In Wing Chun, we said,
learning has no junior rank or senior ranking by years of learning, those who has mastered the art is the teacher.



If you seriously want to discuss in a this WCK and Taiji chuan topic.

Share with us your 37 years of Tai Chi....experience.


1, what style of Tai Chi do you practicing? Who is your sifu?

2, What is the characteristics of your Tai Chi Jin/power? and what is the principle of cultivate it? and how? How deep the penetration can it do and have you tested it with other fighter such as Kyokushin, MT...?

3, What have you attain on Qi cultivation according to Tai Chi ? From heat up the Dan Dien to circuilate the Ren and Du medirians to flowing down to the K1.....ect.

[Scott R. Brown]

Sorry to Say 37 years means nothing for WCK,

Your opinion is irrelevant and insignificant since you have not crossed hands with me and know nothing about me or my training! On the other hand I have seen your standing Chi Kung and it is laughable!


Share with us your 37 years of Tai Chi....experience.

After you!


1, what style of Tai Chi do you practicing? Who is your sifu?

I recognize no Sifu!


2, What is the characteristics of your Tai Chi Jin/power? and what is the principle of cultivate it? and how? How deep the penetration can it do and have you tested it with other fighter such as Kyokushin, MT...?

Come here and I'll be happy to show you!


3, What have you attain on Qi cultivation according to Tai Chi ? From heat up the Dan Dien to circuilate the Ren and Du medirians to flowing down to the K1.....ect.

Been there, done that, NOT impressed!

[Scott R. Brown]

I give you a chance, and your response really show who you are.

Quit acting like a chicken sh!t Hendrik by posting and then deleting your posts! You have done that at least twice in the past two days. It reflects your passive/aggressive personality! If you wish to avoid confrontation think it through before you post, preview your post, and/or pause to regain self-control of your emotions before you post.

I understand it is difficult to be constantly challenged, but you bring it on yourself!

I have given you many chances in the past to show who you are and you always come out looking gutless.

If you want to know my Martial Arts history, look on my profile and go back and look at my 10 years of posts on this BB and figure it out for yourself.

You have not answered ONE question of the 50 or so questions I have posed to you in the time you have been on this board, yet once again you expect from others what you cannot do yourself.

I have little respect for you, because all you can do is criticize others while avoiding the direct questioning of your theses.

How arrogant of you to expect another to answer you questions when you refuse to answer the questions of others.

If you wish to be treated with more respect, I recommend you behave towards others with more respect yourself!

[anerlich]

You rock, buddy.

[Scott R. Brown]

you rock, buddy.

;)

..........

[bennyvt]

Stick your dip **** up your arse.
I haven't said anything about my background and yet you take the assumption that I know nothing about teaching. I had a teacher that once said "anyone that makes a statistic using them self is an idiot." The thread was about if tai chi would help his VT. As you haven't done VT you would know **** all about it wouldn't you. You are obviously doing a push for tai chi as you do it,great. Most VT people will say that we teach simple ways of blocking and striking. Having two ways to block the same punch will only lead to increased reflex time. Once you have acheived a certain level what you do is your concern.
How many swimmer do you teach to do running to improve their swimming. So you think specializing in one way would not decrease the time needed to get the action reflex. How many people have you taught.
You seem to have some good stuff with all the chi, airy fairy crap but if you want to talk about VT then I would suggest actually learning it. Oh by the way I have actually done chen style tai chi. Not seriuosly but hey you haven't done VT and I have atleast learnt abit of tai chi. So obviuosly you would know more.:D

[Iron-Man]

Quit acting like a chicken sh!t Hendrik by posting and then deleting your posts! You have done that at least twice in the past two days. It reflects your passive/aggressive personality! If you wish to avoid confrontation think it through before you post, preview your post, and/or pause to regain self-control of your emotions before you post.

I understand it is difficult to be constantly challenged, but you bring it on yourself!

I have given you many chances in the past to show who you are and you always come out looking gutless.

If you want to know my Martial Arts history, look on my profile and go back and look at my 10 years of posts on this BB and figure it out for yourself.

You have not answered ONE question of the 50 or so questions I have posed to you in the time you have been on this board, yet once again you expect from others what you cannot do yourself.

I have little respect for you, because all you can do is criticize others while avoiding the direct questioning of your theses.

How arrogant of you to expect another to answer you questions when you refuse to answer the questions of others.

If you wish to be treated with more respect, I recommend you behave towards others with more respect yourself!

Ha ha what a nice read to come back to ! Dont be too harsh on Hendrick as his aggression has a tendency to go too Internal sometimes, otherwise he may leave this forum again only to return as one of the many Pokemon Warriors.................then you will be sorry !

[Scott R. Brown]

I haven't said anything about my background and yet you take the assumption that I know nothing about teaching.
You are the one who made the assumptions d!ckhead! All I said was you don't know me and then went on to explain my background to you to demonstrate there is a foundation, based in experience, for my comments.

It is a reasonable argument procedure to establish a basis for ones conclusions.

However, your comments display a clear lack of understanding, so I draw the conclusion that you don't have any idea what you are talking about.

So far you have written nothing that adequately refutes my conclusion! You clearly do not know what you are talking about and you are arguing with your better!

Live with it and move on!

I had a teacher that once said "anyone that makes a statistic using them self is an idiot." The thread was about if tai chi would help his VT. As you haven't done VT you would know **** all about it wouldn't you.
You are apparently so foolish you do not even understand your teacher's saying! Using qualifications to explain one's perspective on a particular topic is NOT using a statistic you dolt! It is explaining one's background in order to establish a basis/foundation for their comments!

To blindly repeat an axiom one does NOT understand or even apply correctly makes one a WHAT?

I know a little bit about WC, not any of the super-duper secret magic decoder ring stuff, but enough to know it isn't anything special.

I have yet to learn, observe or practice a MA that was all that impressive. Not one of them is all that difficult to learn or practice. If it is for you then you are a bit inept and quite young in your training.

I hadn’t said anything about my background in my previous posts and yet you made the assumption that I know nothing about teaching!

Who’s the idiot here?


You are obviously doing a push for tai chi as you do it,great.
I thought we weren't supposed to make assumptions, dipsh!T?

No...I am NOT making a pitch for Tai Chi, I am making a pitch for learning more than ONE MA!!!! I didn't bring up Tai Chi, the original poster did! If he had asked about WC and Muay Thai, or Judo, or Ba Gua, I would have answered the same!

What are you 15 years old?


Most VT people will say that we teach simple ways of blocking and striking. Having two ways to block the same punch will only lead to increased reflex time. Once you have acheived a certain level what you do is your concern.

That does not make it the best way to learn to defend yourself dipsh!t!

It is unfortunate that some WC teachers teach that way. Those that do are ignorant. That is their burden to carry.

If you blindly follow what you do not understand, which you have already demonstrated a talent for, that is your burden.

Just because some people teach that way does not mean it is the most effective way to teach, it means foolish people blindly follow tradition without understanding anything else because they are unable to think for themselves.


How many swimmer do you teach to do running to improve their swimming. So you think specializing in one way would not decrease the time needed to get the action reflex. How many people have you taught.
You ARE 15 aren’t you? Some swimmers DO run as part of their training program, and YES dips!t, many lift weights too!!!! I did both myself when I was a state class swimmer in high school and some Olympic swimmers do the same!

You really know nothing about training so I would advise you to stick to what you know best, like sucking off your teacher's teat!

You seem to have some good stuff with all the chi, airy fairy crap but if you want to talk about VT then I would suggest actually learning it. Oh by the way I have actually done chen style tai chi. Not seriuosly but hey you haven't done VT and I have atleast learnt abit of tai chi. So obviuosly you would know more.:D

Training is training, it doesn't matter what one learns. The basic training principles are the same. If you want to teach or learn only one way to do a strike, parry or block, good for you. Others are more practical and understand, real life is unpredicatable. You can't say to your attacker, "Wait! I don't know how to counter that attack! Please attack me <this> way because I only learned ONE way to respond!"

Practicing it and understanding it are two different things young man! You’ve got a looooooong way to go before you can compete with the big boys….I would quit while you are ahead!

[Hendrik]

Stick your dip **** up your arse.
I haven't said anything about my background and yet you take the assumption that I know nothing about teaching. I had a teacher that once said "anyone that makes a statistic using them self is an idiot." The thread was about if tai chi would help his VT. As you haven't done VT you would know **** all about it wouldn't you. You are obviously doing a push for tai chi as you do it,great. Most VT people will say that we teach simple ways of blocking and striking. Having two ways to block the same punch will only lead to increased reflex time. Once you have acheived a certain level what you do is your concern.
How many swimmer do you teach to do running to improve their swimming. So you think specializing in one way would not decrease the time needed to get the action reflex. How many people have you taught.

You seem to have some good stuff with all the chi, airy fairy crap but if you want to talk about VT then I would suggest actually learning it.

Oh by the way I have actually done chen style tai chi. Not seriuosly but hey you haven't done VT and I have atleast learnt abit of tai chi. So obviuosly you would know more.:D



Just my very humble opinion,



In Term of VT and Taiji, Solid technical speaking,

I throw a VT Mun Sau or Asking hand or Reach for the Buddha hand, at him to observe him;
look at his over react response posts which show his kung fu.


Not a Taiji Guy either, no balance mind and body.


In the Taiji classical, it said, hero is invincible because the hero knows others and others doesnt know the hero. Strike before knows others is not taiji.

based on the above classic, a Taiji guy will not chasing around noise or self speculation;
but enter into silence, cover oneself, and observe and read the situation like an eagle before strike instead of squirrel which react jumping around. Similar to we in VT, we cover ourselve behind Mun Sau and ask and observe.


In cantonese, the over react behavior is called Chaam Pat Tzu Hei or cant sink one's chi. or have no emotional management. or no samadhi or stillness.

In fact, one of the reason of standing in YJKYM is to train Chaam Tzu Hei or can sink one's chi or have the patient and stability and wait.


There goes on how is his theory on NO BEINGNESS, ZEN, DAO....etc and his cultivation.


He doesnt practice what he preaches.






In term of cultivation,

He must be the Wises Sage or Buddha which come and teach me , the ignorance person , a lesson on how can I improve myself.

In that case I really respect and appreciate his teaching.


See, everything has two side in this duality world, and be able to see clear the two side and doesnt get carry away is the non attachment of Zen. and I always can learn different things from different people because I am no Buddha and in fact I have lots of sifu and sifus and still bow to more sifus.


I always like the Kyokushin Way, between two bows, one practices the best skill one has.
Thus, the Bow is for respect everyone since everyone is equal, however, at the time to test skill it is purely technical and nothing personal, because skill is skill, kungfu is kungfu, attainment is attainment, that got nothing to do with not respecting other, in fact using the real kung fu is respecting the other party. Just my way of viewing the art.



VT and TaijiChuan, it is all about how advance one's cultivation. NOt about what training path one uses. and it is a wasting of time comparing this training path and that training path such as one compare which door is the best to get into a stadium.

One use the door to enter the stadium, and not comparing every door and get confuse and ultimately stuck and not be able to get into the stadium.

And to enter the stadium from different specific door in the fastest way, one needs a sifu or a tour guide to brought one into the stadium.

It is extremely foolish to get stuck infront of the stadium and keep thinking one is within the stadium.

Thus, one needs an attain sifu with the lineage's transmission, why wasting time outside the stadium?

Get Stuck in the wall between two doors is the worse one wants to get into,

[Scott R. Brown]

why wasting time outside the stadium?

Because no be sheep......like henrik who follow blindly like lemming go off cliff to doom! can't think for self only copy phony sifus sayings and sutra sayings not understood!


Get Stuck in the wall between two doors is the worse one wants to get into,

Not understanding Yin-Yang principle life......life confrontations makes one challenge and grow but stupid sheep bang head between doors with no sense and show no understanding, ha ha!

don't know silent not silent is non-silent silence, but jabbers like old woman without teeth and slobber on self too, ha ha!!

Confrontation make dimwit show true foolishness and show talking nonsense all the time, but no say a smart thing, ha ha!

sayings reply always and reveal weakness to cat, like cat tease with mouse with no anger just play with mouse for fun and laugh at stupid mouse, ha ha!

sign not in tao if cat/tao nature can't understand.....cannot accept cat nature of play with mouse show ignorant and not know tao at all, ha ha!

poor henrik is stupid mouse not smart but think is cat but only stupid old woman mouse jabbering and drooling all over self, ha ha!

cat say to hendrik, thanks for playing you really stupid and fun stupid mouse with you, ha ha!:):):):):eek::D:p;)

[wtxs]

Because no be sheep......like henrik who follow blindly like lemming go off cliff to doom! can't think for self only copy phony sifus sayings and sutra sayings not understood!



Not understanding Yin-Yang principle life......life confrontations makes one challenge and grow but stupid sheep bang head between doors with no sense and show no understanding, ha ha!

don't know silent not silent is non-silent silence, but jabbers like old woman without teeth and slobber on self too, ha ha!!

Confrontation make dimwit show true foolishness and show talking nonsense all the time, but no say a smart thing, ha ha!

sayings reply always and reveal weakness to cat, like cat tease with mouse with no anger just play with mouse for fun and laugh at stupid mouse, ha ha!

sign not in tao if cat/tao nature can't understand.....cannot accept cat nature of play with mouse show ignorant and not know tao at all, ha ha!

poor henrik is stupid mouse not smart but think is cat but only stupid old woman mouse jabbering and drooling all over self, ha ha!

cat say to hendrik, thanks for playing you really stupid and fun stupid mouse with you, ha ha!:):):):):eek::D:p;)

Scott R. Brown ... you one sh$$t funny man, me sitting in front monitor eat food with pee in seat of pants ... :o:p

[MartialDev]

If learning Tai Chi actually does improve your Wing Chun, that only proves there was something wrong with your performance of Wing Chun.

People will swear up and down that it isn't true...but it is...and it's nothing to be embarrassed about either. Correcting one's mistakes is a good thing, by whatever means, isn't it?

There are a hundred different valid reasons to take up Tai Chi. Among them are "I want to learn it for its own sake," and "My WC teacher has exhausted their knowledge and has nothing more to teach."

So go ahead and do it. Just don't think that you can keep them separate, or that there is no additional cost involved with learning multiple arts at once.

P.S. If a student ignored my instructions, or failed to practice sufficiently to understand them, and then decided to simultaneously take up a second martial art "to cover the gaps and flaws" in my teaching...I would have to consider throwing them out of class, for wasting my precious time.

[sanjuro_ronin]

If learning Tai Chi actually does improve your Wing Chun, that only proves there was something wrong with your performance of Wing Chun.

Improvement means to make better, not correct mistakes.
I can be doing something correct, but still be able to do it better.

[t_niehoff]

Improvement means to make better, not correct mistakes.
I can be doing something correct, but still be able to do it better.

I don't like the term "correct" and I don't think it really applies to MAs. That implies there is some objective standard (usuallu what sifu sez), and that simply isn't the case with open skills. In psycho-motor development, they talk about skill being the ability to bring about a desired result (perform a task) with max certainty and min time/effort. Nothing about doing it "correctly."

So instead of looking at things from a correct/incorrect perspective, I think it more useful to look at thing from a skill-perspective, i.e., are you able to DO it successfully? Can you increase your success rate and/or further minimize the time it takes or the effort you need?

[LSWCTN1]

I don't like the term "correct" and I don't think it really applies to MAs. That implies there is some objective standard (usuallu what sifu sez), and that simply isn't the case with open skills. In psycho-motor development, they talk about skill being the ability to bring about a desired result (perform a task) with max certainty and min time/effort. Nothing about doing it "correctly."

So instead of looking at things from a correct/incorrect perspective, I think it more useful to look at thing from a skill-perspective, i.e., are you able to DO it successfully? Can you increase your success rate and/or further minimize the time it takes or the effort you need?

but you have to learn correctly to perform correctly.

its alright fighting p!ssed up street fighters with lax skills, but you've got to be sharp when someone knows something