Gloves and related questions/thoughts

[KC Elbows]

Few quick ones:

1) Been utterly dissapointed in the options for gloves out there. MMA gloves are fine for actual fights, but little else as far as training. There's next to nothing, barring foam cr@p, that addresses padding the striking surfaces o9f the hands for kung fu. Been looking at some jkd gloves, but so far, not impressed. Any recommendations, aside from my assumption that I'll have to make my own?

2) As far as drilling strikes realistically, pads are nice, no problems there, but as far as working this realistically with a resisting opponent, haven't seen any group that got past this in a realistic way, muay thai, sanda, and mma included, which leave the realistic resisting in this sense for the ring, not for practice. Heavy gloves are fine for some strikes, but again, lacking suitable gloves for kung fu striking, it becomes problematic.

3) I've known a lot of guys from a lot of styles who claimed to work strikes live often, but whenever I've looked into it, always there was a lack of ability to actually safely do so, so a lot are merely dropping so much power that it becomes impossible to say you're training the same thing as what you would use on the heavy bag. I understand that full on strikes problematic, but some things don't translate without intent. In older times, armor was the obvious solution, I've got my own solutions based on that, but I was curious of other's solutions.

4) Any responses are appreciated, but, if you're on here for troll flaming, fine, but be aware that I plan on copying only the relevant posts and deleting the thread if trolls and troll fighters fill it with other stuff. I'll repost it if there's anything useful, but be forewarned, you'll be typing for nothing otherwise.

[David Jamieson]

Fingerless are great for sparring, as are 16 oz and 14 oz.

hb gloves i like to wear any of the above as well and even the bag gloves as well.

drills that prep for live and safe hand work in my experience run like this:

1- all basic strikes are produced in the air singularly and in mixed combos with multi repetition (jab/cross/hook/uppercut)


2- all basic strikes have counters (pat/catch/cut/absorb)

3- play these against each other in a controlled fashion (fire and return taking turns)

4 - play the strikes against a surface like a hb and against moving surfaces like mitts or thai pads.

get the rythym and power up in all areas and move to free form.

By the time you've drilled the crap out of the counters, you will understand how they each work in teh dynaic of movement, entering, contacting etc.

after that, kicks, grapples, unbalncing, throwing.

Find the method, make it work!

P.S I'm pretty much exclusively into using fingerless gloves for pretty much everything now.

good gloves and equip can be found at http://www.boes.ca

[KC Elbows]

It sounds like you and I do the same thing. My point is that even the fingerless gloves MARKETED TO KUNG FU PEOPLE(hint hint Gene) lack any real padding on the ridge hand and striking areas of the palm, which precludes really using those strikes except in the ring, which makes it harder to prepare those strikes FOR the ring.

Thanks for the link, though. I'll check it out.

[MasterKiller]

Use 7 oz MMA gloves for training. You can hit hard and still go to work in the morning. They can be a tad bulky for grappling, but it's about as safe as you can get and still be functional/

You can get them in closed-fingered or open-fingered designs.

I've used both and they work just fine. They are mandatory in my classes.

http://www.combatsports.com/images/tg4_1_m.jpg


http://www.combatsports.com/images/fg4_2_m.jpg

As far as palm strikes et al., you'll just have to train them like we train elbows. VERY CAREFULLY.

[KC Elbows]

Thanks guys. Checked out David's link as well, had similar options.

I'm a bit dissappointed. It's not that hard to design something that covers the two weak areas. It's sad that there is apparently not enough market for a product that works for a broader range of strikes. I understand why there's no need from a mma perspective, but pretty much all the tma from the east require focus also to be on these other strikes, and yet, there is no addressing this in the products themselves, and so, no opportunity to simply buy a product and enable people to train what they're doing realistically.

Guess there's no option but forking out the money to get what I actually need, I just hoped there was something out there that addressed this.

[David Jamieson]

you know, you could always pad up the targets a bit more and just go bare handed?

[goju]

Use 7 oz MMA gloves for training. You can hit hard and still go to work in the morning. They can be a tad bulky for grappling, but it's about as safe as you can get and still be functional/

You can get them in closed-fingered or open-fingered designs.

I've used both and they work just fine. They are mandatory in my classes.

http://www.combatsports.com/images/tg4_1_m.jpg


http://www.combatsports.com/images/fg4_2_m.jpg

As far as palm strikes et al., you'll just have to train them like we train elbows. VERY CAREFULLY.

those things felt so awkward to use for me

[KC Elbows]

What I do alone does no good, I'm trying to make a good environment for those training in my system to learn in a better way than was available to me. It's not a huge hassle, I have a friend in China who can produce numbers of whatever product I can give patterns for, I just need to make the product, I was just hoping to skip that step. I simply won't accept limiting the opportunity to train well for no reason other than the lack of a couple pads. Additionally, I've had my nose shattered by a chop some years back, there's no way to pad there enough without blinding the practitioner.

[David Jamieson]

What I do alone does no good, I'm trying to make a good environment for those training in my system to learn in a better way than was available to me. It's not a huge hassle, I have a friend in China who can produce numbers of whatever product I can give patterns for, I just need to make the product, I was just hoping to skip that step. I simply won't accept limiting the opportunity to train well for no reason other than the lack of a couple pads. Additionally, I've had my nose shattered by a chop some years back, there's no way to pad there enough without blinding the practitioner.

there's full face shields you can get.

[goju]

i think genes compnay sells those full bubble mask shields

[David Jamieson]

i think genes compnay sells those full bubble mask shields

sweep the leg johnny!
go for the bubble face!

[goju]

sweep the leg johnny!
go for the bubble face!

lol

:D:D

[MasterKiller]

There are workarounds, KC.

When we train elbows, forearms, knees, etc. for power, we do them on Thai pads. For example, I'll lay down holding Thai pads with someone in my guard, and I move the pads over critical spots while they drop bombs full power. Or, we do different combos while standing with the Thai pads.

When we spar, if someone gets a mount, I have them drop elbows on the mat BESIDE their opponent's head. That way, they actually get to reinforce the technique, but we still get to go home with all of our teeth.

Hitting pads is for power.
Hitting people is for accuracy/timing.

[KC Elbows]

There are workarounds, KC.

When we train elbows, forearms, knees, etc. for power, we do them on Thai pads. For example, I'll lay down holding Thai pads with someone in my guard, and I move the pads over critical spots while they drop bombs full power. Or, we do different combos while standing with the Thai pads.

When we spar, if someone gets a mount, I have them drop elbows on the mat BESIDE their opponent's head. That way, they actually get to reinforce the technique, but we still get to go home with all of our teeth.

Hitting pads is for power.
Hitting people is for accuracy/timing.

This is the same as we're already doing.

Face shields are problematic if one is including grappling and throws, so I've been avoiding them.

My hope was there were gloves with padding for fist strikes as well as ridge hands and palm strikes. The lack of them is not due to there being no way to do this, imo, but merely that no one apparently makes them. Making them is not that difficult, as the same basic way of making the other gloves with two additions would suffice, and allow live training more fully for many of the striking methods in tma.

Since we all accept that live training with a resistant opponent is necessary, I would assume that most of us who do systems of tma that endorse striking methods with fists, chops, and palms, would own a product that allows us to do all those more realistically with sparring partners.

Currently, I'd make do with another product, but long term, it's not a good solution to the specific problem of allowing realistic sparring with our kung fu. I have the capacity to make such a product, I'm just surprised that there isn't one already.

If there were such a glove, it was effective in it's role, and not too pricey, would you guys prefer it over more limited tools?

[KC Elbows]

Hitting people is for accuracy/timing.

I want to respond to this more fully.

In short, I agree, but I think your point supports what I'm struggling with here more than otherwise.

The degree to which lacking substantial padding on the ridge and palm effect how realistically one can strike that way, you compare with elbows, which is fair.

Now, let's say that we then had to ratchet down fist strikes to the same degree, to the degree where it was assumed there was no padding. Who would consider such a thing an optimum way of trainng fist strikes?

Why is it different for chops and palm strikes?

How, aside from lacking a little padding, are chops and palm strikes more like elbows than fists?

[MasterKiller]

The degree to which lacking substantial padding on the ridge and palm effect how realistically one can strike that way, you compare with elbows, which is fair.

Now, let's say that we then had to ratchet down fist strikes to the same degree, to the degree where it was assumed there was no padding. Who would consider such a thing an optimum way of trainng fist strikes?

How, aside from lacking a little padding, are chops and palm strikes more like elbows than fists?But even fist strikes are ratcheted down in training, unless you are wearing 16 or 18oz gloves, and headgear, and even then are you seriously throwing 100% every shot against your partners every time you spar? I doubt it. Maybe once in a while you decide to bust each other up, but you can't do it all the time, not even most of the time.

Ever taken a leg kick 100%? I've limped for weeks after a few at 75%.

Unless you guys put on Blauer suits, the fact is you aren't going to be able to strike with 100% power, using any striking surface, and still be able to mow the lawn the next day.

And even with the Blauer suits on, which I've used, your mobility and vision is so limited it's not even close to realistic, either, unless you are training for a spot on the riot-control squad.

The better way, as I see it, is to use techniques at lesser power when sparring so that you can learn the timing, entry, and even the counters, but to train with intent on pads.

[KC Elbows]

But even fist strikes are ratcheted down in training, unless you are wearing 16 or 18oz gloves, and headgear, and even then are you seriously throwing 100% every shot against your partners every time you spar? I doubt it. Maybe once in a while you decide to bust each other up, but you can't do it all the time, not even most of the time.

Ever taken a leg kick 100%? I've limped for weeks after a few at 75%.

Unless you guys put on Blauer suits, the fact is you aren't going to be able to strike with 100% power, using any striking surface, and still be able to mow the lawn the next day.

And even with the Blauer suits on, which I've used, your mobility and vision is so limited it's not even close to realistic, either, unless you are training for a spot on the riot-control squad.

The better way, as I see it, is to use techniques at lesser power when sparring so that you can learn the timing, entry, and even the counters, but to train with intent on pads.

I agree on the ratcheting down of power, but this begs the question of why, if it's sufficient to ratchet down without pads for two types of strikes, chops and palms, that you wear gloves at all, except that you do prefer the pads on your fists for training, and simply don't have the option for the other two currently, right?

[MasterKiller]

I agree on the ratcheting down of power, but this begs the question of why, if it's sufficient to ratchet down without pads for two types of strikes, chops and palms, that you wear gloves at all, except that you do prefer the pads on your fists for training, and simply don't have the option for the other two currently, right?

Because gloves help prevent cuts and broken hands, two injuries that can occur a lot when punching bare knuckle to the noggin.

Personally, I wouldn't want anything bulkier than current 7 oz MMA gloves, especially if my palm was covered because it would affect my grip. You start adding padding here and there, and it's going to affect other aspects of fighting. How are you going to pummel in the clinch with bigger, thicker gloves? It's never going to be perfect.

I do understand where you are coming from. I just don't think it's worth reinventing the wheel over.

[KC Elbows]

Because gloves help prevent cuts and broken hands, two injuries that can occur a lot when punching bare knuckle to the noggin.

Bag gloves are lighter than the ones you showed, and do the trick. I understand that short of heavier gloves, the glove is protecting the fist more than the target, but gloves of the weight you're using, which looks like a good weight, have some intention toward safety for the target in light sparring as well.


Personally, I wouldn't want anything bulkier than current 7 oz MMA gloves, especially if my palm was covered because it would affect my grip. You start adding padding here and there, and it's going to affect other aspects of fighting. How are you going to pummel in the clinch with bigger, thicker gloves? It's never going to be perfect.

The grip issue is possible, but not a given. The areas I'm suggesting could be padded are all at the wrist end of things, which is not where the grip should be: that said, it is possible that padding at that point could nudge something you're trying to grab out of the way, so the padding could not be as substantial as on the fist itself, but, lacking padding, some of the non punch strikes are part of the bread and butter in clinch range in kung fu, so there is some virtue in enabling more live practice in this. I know you're not arguing otherwise, just thinking out loud.


I do understand where you are coming from. I just don't think it's worth reinventing the wheel over.

Kung fu is just getting out of a long era of accepting what was the norm last year as the permanent state of things. These sparring gloves are not like the wheel, they're a pretty recent invention, and some versions were influenced by point sparring, some by mma, I think there's something to be said for choosing tools based on the task at hand, not what the store carries. I'm gonna see what use they are, and you may be right, the problems might not make them worth it, but I suspect there is a medium ground of some value.

[MasterKiller]

Bag gloves are lighter than the ones you showed, and do the trick. I understand that short of heavier gloves, the glove is protecting the fist more than the target, but gloves of the weight you're using, which looks like a good weight, have some intention toward safety for the target in light sparring as well.
Bag gloves tend to cover the palm, which I hate, and also usually have a grip bar. If you cut the grip bar out, you can use them to spar (I've known guys that do this).

7oz gloves do offer (limited) protection to both parties. I've been using them for years, even before I started training MMA myself, because they were light years ahead of foam-dipped gloves.

[KC Elbows]

Bag gloves tend to cover the palm, which I hate, and also usually have a grip bar. If you cut the grip bar out, you can use them to spar (I've known guys that do this).

7oz gloves do offer (limited) protection to both parties. I've been using them for years, even before I started training MMA myself, because they were light years ahead of foam-dipped gloves.

Amen on the foam dipped gloves. Awful stuff.