Can Your Teacher School You?

[wiz cool c]

If sparring or pushing hands or rolling, can your teacher dominate you like the teachers do to their student in the kung fu movies? I had an interesting experience the other day with my new teacher in the park.

I recentenly moved from Beijing to the souther part of china, shenzhen. I found a great teacher who teaches many style, including hung gar and tai chi. So I decided to study the hung gar because it is tradidtional. I noticed he also teaches some modern wushu that i wasn't interested in.

So the teacher got word that i do push hands and have competed in a few competition in the states and one morning began to compare the energy of hung chuan, to push hands. So we started doing some paterns then he told me to go free style. So we began to push free style for about 5 minutes. WE where both going for it, it wasn't a student bonce around for the teacher and teacher looks good, kinda thing.

So I'm happy to say he was dominating me. He had a good root and a low stance and was underneath me most the time, and able to uproot me. I did feel a week angle that i was able to capitalized on several times though. I'm happy my teacher was willing and capable to dominate me in this way. My Bagua teacher in Beijing never push with me in three years time.

So did he school me, no. He was a higher level and could dominate me, and to be honest i'm happy and a little suprized. To push with a master in china is like rolling with a good bjj black or boxing with an ex champ or something.

[peace&love]

I've had different experiences in regards to this. My first kung fu teacher was an excellent fighter. He had won multiple kickboxing matches and ran a fight club at one time. His background was in Hung Gar, Choy Lee Fut, Wing Chun, as well as other styles.

I studied Shaolin Do for a bit, and found I dominated the instructor when he FINALLY sparred me. I remember one time when he wanted to test my roundhouse kicks for a sash test. After the first kick, he grabbed his side and said that was good. I knocked the breath out of him. After that, then sparring one of his senior students, locking him up with a Wing Chun technique, and having to deal with him freaking out, I was done.

After all that, I heading back to Hung Gar. I find the instructors are more legitimate, hard working, and always looking to improve. They do not claim or brag about being a master at anything, and they emphasize the importance of being a continuous student no matter how good they get, there is always more to learn. Also, I find that Hung Gar and Wing Chun always emphasize the basics, or the foundation. One skill set must be mastered before moving on. I believe this has made a lot of great Hung Gar and Wing Chun teachers out there compared to the McDojo type mentality that a ton of schools, teachers, and students find themselves in.

[David Jamieson]

If sifu cannot demonstrate his mastery to you. then really, why do you call him sifu?

Yes, while a student who is not out in the world on their own, your teachers should indeed hold the keys to doors you have not gone beyond yet.

But, that's not to say you can't pick locks or gain access elsewhere.

But would you want to learn martial arts from someone you could easily tool and that isn't practically an ancient with a good rep?

[sanjuro_ronin]

I don't expect a teacher or coach to "school" me of be able to "kick my ass", I expect him to have something of value to teach me.

[David Jamieson]

I don't expect a teacher or coach to "school" me of be able to "kick my ass", I expect him to have something of value to teach me.

well, as a beginner, of course there will be something of value for you to learn.

But much later in the game, as the law of diminishing returns reaches it's terminus, what then?

What do you look for in someone now who you seek to learn from?

I find that the more years you have in and the more you have studied, the harder and harder it gets to find someone who can teach you something new.

And if you do find someone, it sure as heck ain't gonna be convenient for you! lol

That's why I exchange. I expect to learn from my peers now and I find it to be exhilarating when I learn something new vis a vis my own failure. Keeps me training anyway. :)

people who are aloof and play the master thing up just turn me off. I may or may not have something to learn from them, but their attitude precludes any opportunity of them having me pay them to teach me something. :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

well, as a beginner, of course there will be something of value for you to learn.

But much later in the game, as the law of diminishing returns reaches it's terminus, what then?

What do you look for in someone now who you seek to learn from?

I find that the more years you have in and the more you have studied, the harder and harder it gets to find someone who can teach you something new.

And if you do find someone, it sure as heck ain't gonna be convenient for you! lol

That's why I exchange. I expect to learn from my peers now and I find it to be exhilarating when I learn something new vis a vis my own failure. Keeps me training anyway. :)

people who are aloof and play the master thing up just turn me off. I may or may not have something to learn from them, but their attitude precludes any opportunity of them having me pay them to teach me something. :)

Take boxing for example, how many coaches can "school" their professional and even amateure fighters?
Does that mean they have noting to teach and the fighter must find someone that can beat him so he can learn?

[goju]

my goju and tkd teacher easily schooled me and i have night mares of someone the size of brock spin back kicking me as a result lol

i rolled with my bjj teacher once as well and he didnt have any problems with me either

[David Jamieson]

Take boxing for example, how many coaches can "school" their professional and even amateure fighters?
Does that mean they have noting to teach and the fighter must find someone that can beat him so he can learn?

my boxing coach could tool me, but I was a juvenile boxer and he was only in his mid to late 30's when I trained under him. :)

No. Age doesn't preclude ability to teach something of value.

I think you are taking it way over to the other end of the spectrum.
I hear and agree with what you are saying.

But, what about a young master? What about someone even younger than you. Someone who may have not the greatest attitude, but has great skill and ability to teach it. Without knowing these things, would you not want the young master to demonstrate his prowess?

I probably would. If I couldn't see it readily, then I would definitely ask.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yeah, I agree with that, a boxing coach in his prime would school most of his "students".

[Yum Cha]

I look at it this way, teachers have pieces of a puzzle. It depends on you and your own skills if you need the pieces they have to offer.

We talk a lot about cross training. Your mate that has 2 years of Akido teaches you three holds. You know you can choke his a$$ out, but you also know you can use those 3 holds in your game.

Then there is the whole teacher student dynamic. A teacher should be able to produce a student that is better than he was, because teaching skill is different to performing skill.

How many middleweight athletes became champion coaches in mainstream sport?
Is MA, TCMA, MMA any different?

Our school, for example, has Sifu, and the 4 older brothers. The older brothers are all qualified teachers in their own right, with between 24 and 15 years of training. Each brings a character to the training of the younger brothers. There is a collective thing going on for the students in this pai. In essence, the teachers are changing as well as the students. This is a traditional solution. And, there are more coming up to the 10 year mark now, thankfully.

The first lesson we teach is that you are responsible for your own development, that Sifu and the older brothers cannot carry you, that unless you take the initiative to pursue your training, to discover the techniques and learn the dynamic, you will not succeed. We help with the map, but you must take the journey.

Now, it seems totally natural to me that as you reach your peak, physically and perhaps to some extent skill wise, there may be less the teacher can give you, unless they have given you the skills to learn as well as the skills themselves. That is the gift that keeps on giving.

The dynamic of the mentor relationship is that one day the apprentice leaves the teacher to become the journeyman, and as a result of their independent discovery, work towards becoming the master. That's human nature, demonstrated over thousands of years.

[Drake]

It's about the value of what they can teach you. As you get older, it is nearly impossible to keep up physically with the young kids. Trust me... I get this lesson every time I take my junior soliders out on a run. Do I know how to properly run? Yep. Properly stretch? Yes. Do I know how far we should go, and at what intensity? Sure thing. But, I absolutely cannot run as fast as my 19 year old private.

[Yum Cha]

It's about the value of what they can teach you. As you get older, it is nearly impossible to keep up physically with the young kids. Trust me... I get this lesson every time I take my junior soliders out on a run. Do I know how to properly run? Yep. Properly stretch? Yes. Do I know how far we should go, and at what intensity? Sure thing. But, I absolutely cannot run as fast as my 19 year old private.


I can see you out there Drake, like old Clint Eastwood...what was the flick, Heartbreak Hill? LOL

Would you agree that teaching is a skill itself?

[Taryn P.]

All of my teachers could smoke me with both hands tied behind their backs.

Maybe a couple of the older ones have slowed down a bit, but that only makes them more efficient- they'd kill me faster so as to not tire themselves out too much. :p

[Drake]

I can see you out there Drake, like old Clint Eastwood...what was the flick, Heartbreak Hill? LOL

Would you agree that teaching is a skill itself?

It is. Actually, it is a skill identifier on my officer record brief! I took a two-week course way back when I was an NCO at the schoolhouse. And looking into the public sector, teachers need not only the education, but also teaching certification. Same goes for martial arts. Sure, you can leap 20 feet into the air and do a super ultra mega spinning kick. Question is, can you teach it to others? More importantly, can you teach it to someone in a way they understand, especially if they don't understand things the way you do?

[Yum Cha]

Cool Drake, I knew you would agree, so we can now ask the rhetorical question,

"if your teacher is a good teacher, and you are a good student, does it matter if you can defeat your teacher?"