What Bak Mei Chi Gung Forms Do You All Practice?

[TAO YIN]

Hello,

Most people on this board come from CLC Bak Mei, but I hope everyone from various schools of Bak Mei will respond. What Chi Gung Set or Sets do you practice? What is/ are the names of the Set/ Sets? Do the sets that you practice have a traditional poem explaining each movement and posture?

Serious question. What do you practice for Chi Gung. I am not talking about doing 9 step, 18 devils, or Meng Fu slowly. I am also not talking about them or any of the other sets having Chi Gung built in to them over time in relation to how much you have practiced them.

What set/ sets do you practice?

[Lai See]

There aren't any separate Pak Mei Chi Gung 'forms'.

The subject of your post asks a question and the body of the message asks another.

[TAO YIN]

Lai See,

So, no Chi Gung forms that you know of? The body of my question asks posters to go away from what they usually say, that they practice Meng Fu slowly...

[Jorge]

There aren't any separate Pak Mei Chi Gung 'forms'.

The subject of your post asks a question and the body of the message asks another.

Lai See,

Whatever happened to the hung mor for Trembeling Ging? I think thats the set's name. Is it legit or just BS?




Buby

[TAO YIN]

Yes, anyone...

I would like to hear about the 5 element set.


I love internal. I remember having my arse handed to me, or should I say the ground, when I was living in Henan and visited an internal master there once. It opened up my eyes to internal. Since then, I have been mainly focused on it. It's really hard to accomplish internal understanding to say the least.

For me, I do Yau Kung Mun Sup Baat Seurng Toy Jeurng first. It's beyond my comprehension at the moment because of its complexity. It is simple, but in a very profound way. I am working on it's iron body, oh my...It's The Pinnacle, end of story, IMO.

Second, I practice Bak Mei's Min Far (Cotton Body) Set. It's awesome. The way that it is set up and the principles that go with it really do train the cotton body, indestructible body, that Bak Mei was famous for. A person can't get this kind of training from training an external hand form, or two man form, no matter if they did it a hundred thousand times.

Anyways,

So what about you all? What about your 5 elements? It's pretty common knowledge that CLC learned from a High Level Monk. Seriously, I doubt that the monk only taught him a few hand forms. The monk would have taught him internal meditations. All monks do that kind of meditation stuff, you know?

What about the 5 element, or whatever other set you train in your school, or just the internal that you practice?

Breathing Exercises? Alchemy? Shin Gung? Constellation play? Seated meditation? Moving meditation? Jam Jong training? Water training? Iron Palm? Iron Body? Dit Dar? Psychological change? Visualization training? Self Hypnosis? Etc..

What kind of results have you had?

Cheers,

Tao

[SavvySavage]

Tao yin,

are you actually reading what you're writing? Cotton body set?? You got beat up by an internal master in Henan? Can you please describe the encounter in good detail? It wasn't one of those situations where you just stood there and he hit you or you were doing lame push hands and he puhed you away a few inches is it?

Do these special chi gungs actually help you in sparring? Or do you revert back to Kung Fu "kickboxing"

[TAO YIN]

Savage,

Hello, how are you? What Chi Gung sets do you practice? Do they help you, or do you revert back to Kung Fu, Kickboxing?

Sometimes I read what I wrote I guess, sometimes not. If I edit it I do. Whatever the case, I just tell the truth and don't worry about it. But yeah, a cotton body set! It's really nice too. I enjoy it and get great results from it. Notice in my post I said where it is from; I didn't say it was CLC Bak Mei... People can think whatever they want about that...

As for the teacher in Henan; I lived in Henan for some time and trained there. I had a friendly match with this teacher, and he threw me with his Tai Chi and Shuai Jiao training. There was no lame push hands involved.

Not to tell the whole match, but at one point I was being aggressive with strikes and he was backing up like crazy, then I went in for a shoot... When I did, he countered it perfectly and threw me right down! I remember I stumbled momentarily then ended up practically on my face. At the time I thought, "well, my gravity is way out in front, I'm screwed." Anyhow, his Shuai Jiao and Tai Chi was excellent. Mind you, we were not trying to kill each other or anything like that. There was no ill intentions involved, just a spar for knowledge. I apologize if what I wrote sounded like it was a death match or something like that...

Internal has helped me a great deal with sparring! It especially has with the clinch, throws, and all grappling. As for me reverting back to Kung Fu, Kickboxing, or whatever; I'll use whatever works at the time. Even yoga postures are in fighting, but it's not common to say "I used yoga to win that fight." You know?

Cheers,

Tao

[Lai See]

Lai See,

So, no Chi Gung forms that you know of? The body of my question asks posters to go away from what they usually say, that they practice Meng Fu slowly...

Not what I said.

If I were to proffer that one Pak Mei set may contain 'chi gung' more than others (although let me be clear again as far as I am concerened there is no separation) it would be the only one you don't mention!

Does that tell us something or not?!

[Lai See]

Lai See,

Whatever happened to the hung mor for Trembeling Ging? I think thats the set's name. Is it legit or just BS?




Buby

I have no idea. None whatsoever.
I saw a video once demonstrating this 'trembling' business.
I think most people have seen it. Do I really need say anything else?

[TAO YIN]

Lai See,

Hello, thanks for the reply. Which one are you talking about? Straight Step? 9 Step? 18 Bridges? Seriously.

So your meaning is that one of the Bak Mei forms has more Chi Gung in it than others if you do it slowly? Meaning doing it slow like a Chi Gung form? If that is the case I can kind of see what you mean. Then again, which form are you talking about? Also, I was trying to get away from the just doing these forms slowly thing...

:confused:

[Lai See]

Lai See,

Hello, thanks for the reply. Which one are you talking about? Straight Step? 9 Step? 18 Bridges? Seriously.

So your meaning is that one of the Bak Mei forms has more Chi Gung in it than others if you do it slowly? Meaning doing it slow like a Chi Gung form? If that is the case I can kind of see what you mean. Then again, which form are you talking about? Also, I was trying to get away from the just doing these forms slowly thing...

:confused:

Jik Bou.

'May' I said 'may' not 'has'. Big difference.

My point is that as far as I am concerned one can't get away from this.

Integral, there is a word.

[TAO YIN]

Okay cool,

So, would you do Jik Bo slowly, say in Lotus Position? Seriously. I am not always just talking about standing and doing these things like in the forms. Or how about doing it in a stationary stance? What elements do you focus on when you do this? How important do you think that the placebo affect is?

I think that Jik Bo is great actually. For me, it helps me maintain the idea of FCTT so that I can differentiate between how each power works in relation to the elements involved with each breath and movement. Jik Bo really is a very intricate form to me when I look at everything going on, but that is something in and of itself.

Most Bak Mei that I have seen doing Jik Bo train what seems mainly "Chum" with the Bil Jee and the Sut Choy, and every other move in the form. Then in the end of it all it becomes way to rigid with every form... However, there Chum power becomes awesome!

So my question is, to get these four powers working in unison and in a very relaxed fashion, don't you think that it is better to actually sit down and train it first rather than stand? Then combine it?

[Lai See]

Okay cool,

So, would you do Jik Bo slowly, say in Lotus Position? Seriously. I am not always just talking about standing and doing these things like in the forms. Or how about doing it in a stationary stance? What elements do you focus on when you do this? How important do you think that the placebo affect is?

I think that Jik Bo is great actually. For me, it helps me maintain the idea of FCTT so that I can differentiate between how each power works in relation to the elements involved with each breath and movement. Jik Bo really is a very intricate form to me when I look at everything going on, but that is something in and of itself.

Most Bak Mei that I have seen doing Jik Bo train what seems mainly "Chum" with the Bil Jee and the Sut Choy, and every other move in the form. Then in the end of it all it becomes way to rigid with every form... However, there Chum power becomes awesome!

So my question is, to get these four powers working in unison and in a very relaxed fashion, don't you think that it is better to actually sit down and train it first rather than stand? Then combine it?



Jik Bou is Jik Bou. That's it. Its simple and complicated at the same time. It is Pak Mei. If you don't 'have' Jik Bou you don't have any Pak Mei. None.

What it certainly isn't is stationary. The word step may give us a clue. A rather important one at that.

So my answer to all your questions, is no.

[TAO YIN]

Lai See,

Thanks for the reply! Good luck with your training.

Cheers,

Tao

[Tiger on Duty]

Im guessing what lai see is saying is that by practising jik bo as it is is both kung fu and chi gung.
If not, that is the way i was taught.

Agreed though if the fctt isnt actually there in your training im not sure what benefit to both chi gung and your pak mei your gonna get.
Jik bo is my favorite form, next to 18 hands but i cant learn that so jik bo it is :)

[diego]

T.o.d. why can't you learn 18 hands?.

[Lai See]

Im guessing what lai see is saying is that by practising jik bo as it is is both kung fu and chi gung.
If not, that is the way i was taught.

Agreed though if the fctt isnt actually there in your training im not sure what benefit to both chi gung and your pak mei your gonna get.
Jik bo is my favorite form, next to 18 hands but i cant learn that so jik bo it is :)

First part, yes, exactly.


FCTT.. words. Words are not training. Training is. Pak Mei is Pak Mei, it's all in there, it's all there. If it isn't then it's not Pak Mei.
Simple.

18 is 'closed' then I'm guessing.
Well, for my part, Jik Bou is the most important, but my favourite is Nine Step. Always will be.
And yes I do have the other two before someone asks.

[Lau]

Lai See,

That could have been my exact post ! Of course all theory on FCTT is in Jek bo (called Chi Pu for us in Hakka). Many people use the words, but it is rare to see it actually been done. And I am still struggling too. Seeing nine step push being performed by my Sihing was the reason for me to start Pak Mei. It was love at the first sight. And as with Jek bo the love grew over the years as I discovered the effective applications and the deeper theory on power generation.

Regards, Lau
Ps, great signature, as we say, ging gets generated through speed ! Although I would change it to "there is no technique that can't be defeated by relaxation and speed"

[TAO YIN]

This kind of goes back to my original question in this thread. I don't think that any of those forms are going to fully develop anything like natural and practical FCTT or Chi Gung, no matter how slow or fast, or how many times, a person does them. For the FCTT, somewhat... For the Chi Gung, they just aren't enough IMO. Seriously, I don't even see hardly any of the daoist hands in those forms; save for Willow Leaf Palm, Yin and Yang Hands, and maybe Beggars Hands...

[Lai See]

This kind of goes back to my original question in this thread. I don't think that any of those forms are going to fully develop anything like natural and practical FCTT or Chi Gung, no matter how slow or fast, or how many times, a person does them. For the FCTT, somewhat... For the Chi Gung, they just aren't enough IMO. Seriously, I don't even see hardly any of the daoist hands in those forms; save for Willow Leaf Palm, Yin and Yang Hands, and maybe Beggars Hands...

This however is your opinion, and your opinion, unless I have this quite wrong and please educate me if I do, is based on the fact that you train in other than Cheung Lai Chuen's Pak Mei.
So my question to you is how do you know what the sets are going to develop or that they 'just arent enough' ?

To me, you are simply using a lot of words. I could be wrong.

[Lai See]

[QUOTE=Lau;1002363]Lai See,

That could have been my exact post ! Of course all theory on FCTT is in Jek bo (called Chi Pu for us in Hakka). Many people use the words, but it is rare to see it actually been done.
QUOTE]

Thank you.

[TAO YIN]

Lai See,

Are you being pleasant or rude? We are all using a lot of words. We are on a forum.

Ha Hon Hung was one of CLC's early students, like it or not. I used to mainly train Jik Bo from his line. I don't train it much anymore. I have trained it and seen it in most lines. Heck, some lines have it where the finger jab is in a horse stance, then the punch is in a front stance. Have you ever seen that one? Is it Guangzhou line? Jik Bo is Jik Bo, like you say, right?

There isn't much difference, a move here or there, depending on which line you are from. All of it, is CLC's Bak Mei, as he taught these people this art...Jik Bo only being from Hong Kong line doesn't mean anything. It isn't more original, and it doesn't have more intent, or anything like that...

I know that the sets are not going to develop much "Chi" by themselves because I have already tried that. You would be better off learning Tai Ji than doing those sets slow. They aren't meant to be done slow. They aren't set up that way. I mentioned that the sets have maybe 3 hands that could be considered traditional Daoist Postures for Chi Gung. If you want to know about it, study about it. Your Grandmaster learned from a monk. They would have meditated, ALOT!!!

Just going slow and doing those forms isn't Chi Gung.

[Jorge]

Lai See,

Are you being pleasant or rude? We are all using a lot of words. We are on a forum.

Ha Hon Hung was one of CLC's early students, like it or not. I used to mainly train Jik Bo from his line. I don't train it much anymore. I have trained it and seen it in most lines. Heck, some lines have it where the finger jab is in a horse stance, then the punch is in a front stance. Have you ever seen that one? Is it Guangzhou line? Jik Bo is Jik Bo, like you say, right?

There isn't much difference, a move here or there, depending on which line you are from. All of it, is CLC's Bak Mei, as he taught these people this art...Jik Bo only being from Hong Kong line doesn't mean anything. It isn't more original, and it doesn't have more intent, or anything like that...

I know that the sets are not going to develop much "Chi" by themselves because I have already tried that. You would be better off learning Tai Ji than doing those sets slow. They aren't meant to be done slow. They aren't set up that way. I mentioned that the sets have maybe 3 hands that could be considered traditional Daoist Postures for Chi Gung. If you want to know about it, study about it. Your Grandmaster learned from a monk. They would have meditated, ALOT!!!

Just going slow and doing those forms isn't Chi Gung.


Not to mention the famous pic of CLC in a monk's robe doing a meditation. As a matter of fact, a couple of years ago, a gentlemen from the guangzhou line posted on here that he had meds that went hand in hand with his PM. The chi gung is to develope the energy in a pulse type manner.

Plus, I understand what my bro means as we trained jik bo for years. I have to admit that training jik bo made me understand good body mechanics and yes is somewhat internal, but I guess thats why PM is not pruely an internal art. To be internal you need meds (standing, moving, sitting, etc...). A good example would be YI Chuan. No forms, only standing meds, push hands and fighting.


Lau,

Ging can only flow when you are relaxed, but what happens when you tense up the fist upon contact?


Bless,

Buby

[TAO YIN]

Buby,

How you doing bro? Good post! Also, your last question there to Lau, is an extremely important question. I still can't get that down sometimes, but work on it a lot.

[Jorge]

Buby,

How you doing bro? Good post! Also, your last question there to Lau, is an extremely important question. I still can't get that down sometimes, but work on it a lot.


Pretty good bro! How are you? When you coming to Brooklyn?

Yeah, it takes time. I'm much better at it now, since I'm back to sparring and bag work again. Bro, all the punches to air will not teach timing, nor will it give you confidence that you can pull it off. Spar, Spar and spar some more. The real trick for me was letting go. Once I did, everything came natural.


Bless,

Buby

[Tiger on Duty]

Yes18 ghostbridge is internal students only, since I have more than 1 sifui won't be able to become internal for bai mei.
I'm ok with that though goodbasic pak mei is slot better than 10 forms of something else. IMO.

[TAO YIN]

Bro,

For sure! I practice maybe 2 forms for the fun of them. For a long time, mostly what I was doing was sparring, rolling, bagwork, conditioning. Now, I am really getting into cultivation. You will understand this, "if you can't do 108s, don't do kung fu." :D

Something funny about what you said, is relating FCTT in practicing it with regular Jik Bo. Form style FCTT goes away pretty quickly sparring with it. Or doing bagwork.

My meaning is for example , when a person can finger jab the heavy bag with fctt, and with the same kind of energy they use in their forms, then they are getting somewhere. Most people say turn the finger jab into a regular jab. Why have the finger strike at all then?

Sifu told me you have been going off on your training! Funny you mention Brooklyn. I was actually looking for work there today. Anyways, I do plan to come up there and check out the place soon. I'll let you know for sure. Cheers!

[Lai See]

Lai See,

Are you being pleasant or rude? We are all using a lot of words. We are on a forum.

Ha Hon Hung was one of CLC's early students, like it or not. I used to mainly train Jik Bo from his line. I don't train it much anymore. I have trained it and seen it in most lines. Heck, some lines have it where the finger jab is in a horse stance, then the punch is in a front stance. Have you ever seen that one? Is it Guangzhou line? Jik Bo is Jik Bo, like you say, right?

There isn't much difference, a move here or there, depending on which line you are from. All of it, is CLC's Bak Mei, as he taught these people this art...Jik Bo only being from Hong Kong line doesn't mean anything. It isn't more original, and it doesn't have more intent, or anything like that...

I know that the sets are not going to develop much "Chi" by themselves because I have already tried that. You would be better off learning Tai Ji than doing those sets slow. They aren't meant to be done slow. They aren't set up that way. I mentioned that the sets have maybe 3 hands that could be considered traditional Daoist Postures for Chi Gung. If you want to know about it, study about it. Your Grandmaster learned from a monk. They would have meditated, ALOT!!!

Just going slow and doing those forms isn't Chi Gung.

Effectively I am being both. One of the differences between you and I posting on this forum is that you will have noted that I don't tend to use words that simply cannot be explained on such a medium as this forum. In fact I don't really use them full stop. You however, do, that is my point regarding 'words'.

I never stated that I liked anything, "or not" in the regard of those that Cheung lai Chuen taught. Your inference not mine.

In a nutshell and from my perspective Jik Bou IS Jik Bou. For example those that practice it in extended unrealistic stances are not doing the Jik Bou that I know. Those that concern themselves with a 'finger jab' for that movement are not either and clearly haven't been taught all the movements therein. That is a simple fact and not rude.

I simply don't understand what it is that you are trying to get across to me. If I dissect your points logically you appear to be saying that what I (amongst others) practice isn't giving me 'something' that your training is.
Well, here is a thing, yes and so what? Do you see the point I am making?
Perhaps I don't want your Chi Gung.
What I have learnt and practice and indeed teach, suits me. And it suited my teacher, and his.
For the record, I don't practice them slowly. :-)

[TAO YIN]

Lai See,

Please direct me to what I have said that can't be explained on a medium such as this forum. I will explain. Perhaps in the future if you don't understand my words, just say "I don't understand what you are saying here..." I'll agree with you, I am too wordy sometimes. I just figured you would know. Then again, if you don't understand "Chi Gung," why post?

Jik Bo is Jik Bo. Jik Bo isn't Chi Gung. Same goes, Bil Jee is Bil Jee. It's a finger jab. You can use it to parry for your next Sut Choy/ Chum Choy, or try to drive it in your opponent's armpit, or strike them in the eye, or do a thousand different things with it...You can change it into a fist, you can use it to thrust your opponent away in the clinch... BUT, in the form it's a Finger Jab, not an "all applications apply" Godsend.

You are right about my inference. I am just used to most saying this isn't this and that isn't that because it isn't CLC Purebred Pedigree Hong Kong Pak Mei TM Inc...

That is good if you dissect my points. That is good if I dissect your points. I asked if anyone trained Chi Gung. You said that you did with Jik Bo, but that Jik Bo is Jik Bo...

And you are right. What I am getting out of my training is different than what you are getting, and vice versa. I gain something you don't, you gain something I don't. Everyday this occurs, with every fleeting moment of our lives as humans.

It isn't a question of you wanting my Chi Gung. It is a question of you knowing Chi Gung. Jik Bo isn't Chi Gung. Chi Gung isn't built into those forms. Chi Gung is Chi Gung. Don't you think that your Grandmaster CLC studied Chi Gung? Don't you think it would help you?

And why is horse stance and extended unrealistic stance? Guangzhou Bak Mei uses it in training their Jik Bo right?:confused:

[Lai See]

Lai See,

1) Please direct me to what I have said that can't be explained on a medium such as this forum. I will explain.

Perhaps in the future if you don't understand my words, just say "I don't understand what you are saying here..." I'll agree with you, I am too wordy sometimes. I just figured you would know.

2) Then again, if you don't understand "Chi Gung," why post?

Jik Bo is Jik Bo. Jik Bo isn't Chi Gung. Same goes, Bil Jee is Bil Jee. It's a finger jab. You can use it to parry for your next Sut Choy/ Chum Choy, or try to drive it in your opponent's armpit, or strike them in the eye, or do a thousand different things with it...You can change it into a fist, you can use it to thrust your opponent away in the clinch...

3) BUT, in the form it's a Finger Jab, not an "all applications apply" Godsend.

You are right about my inference.

4) I am just used to most saying this isn't this and that isn't that because it isn't CLC Purebred Pedigree Hong Kong Pak Mei TM Inc...

That is good if you dissect my points. That is good if I dissect your points. I asked if anyone trained Chi Gung.

5) You said that you did with Jik Bo, but that Jik Bo is Jik Bo...

And you are right. What I am getting out of my training is different than what you are getting, and vice versa. I gain something you don't, you gain something I don't. Everyday this occurs, with every fleeting moment of our lives as humans.

It isn't a question of you wanting my Chi Gung. It is a question of you knowing Chi Gung. Jik Bo isn't Chi Gung.

6) Chi Gung isn't built into those forms.

Chi Gung is Chi Gung. Don't you think that your Grandmaster CLC studied Chi Gung? Don't you think it would help you?

7)And why is horse stance and extended unrealistic stance?

8) Guangzhou Bak Mei uses it in training their Jik Bo right?:confused:

OK, point by point:-

1) As example TTFC cannot be explained in written words whatever the format.

2) I didn't state that. You did.

3) You are incorrect. It is NOT only a finger jab in the Cheung Lai Chuen Pak Mei set Jik Bou.

4) Why is it that you think that people say such things?

5) I said that it is intergral.

6) Yes it is.

7) Because it is an unrealistic extended stance. You say that you spar. Do you ever use a horse stance in this sparring?

8) I have no idea. Do they? If so then as I have previously explained it is not the same Jik Bou that I practice.

[TAO YIN]

1. Sure it can. Heell, I'll explain it in a symbol......FCTT= +

2. I never said I don't understand Chi Gung. (Joke, just funny how you wrote).

3. Okay, so it's a tiger claw? A Palm? A palm and a tiger claw? Why not make it a finger strike, palm, tiger claw, rip, and reverse phoenix all in one? What is it in 9 Step? Not a Bil Jee too? Most will say BIL JEE, And you know it...Enlighten us. What is it?

4. I know people say such things. It happens often. I have read it often.

5. Jik Bo isn't Chi Gung.

6. How? What postures? What signs? What mudras? What alchemy?

7. "The horse is not a t and it's not a v. You don't attack, I won't bash you." If I hip throw you, and you don't have enough sense to sink into your stance or somesuch, regardless of whatever stance you want to call it, good luck! If you spar, you use "horse stance" or some variation thereof. It just won't look like a static picture. Metaphors...

8. Yes, they do! Then yall have different Jik Bos...

[Lai See]

1. Sure it can. Heell, I'll explain it in a symbol......FCTT= +

2. I never said I don't understand Chi Gung. (Joke, just funny how you wrote).

3. Okay, so it's a tiger claw? A Palm? A palm and a tiger claw? Why not make it a finger strike, palm, tiger claw, rip, and reverse phoenix all in one? What is it in 9 Step? Not a Bil Jee too? Most will say BIL JEE, And you know it...Enlighten us. What is it?

4. I know people say such things. It happens often. I have read it often.

5. Jik Bo isn't Chi Gung.

6. How? What postures? What signs? What mudras? What alchemy?

7. "The horse is not a t and it's not a v. You don't attack, I won't bash you." If I hip throw you, and you don't have enough sense to sink into your stance or somesuch, regardless of whatever stance you want to call it, good luck! If you spar, you use "horse stance" or some variation thereof. It just won't look like a static picture. Metaphors...

8. Yes, they do! Then yall have different Jik Bos...


1. You have proved yourself empirically incorrect, thank you for saving me the effort.

2. I think you will find that which I have written is funny.

3. See 1. above. Listing more words in a row isn't helping your 'argument'.
The fact here is you don't know and I do.
You really want to be enlightened? Really? Then go and find a Pak Mei class * Easy.

4. So, you don't have an opinion as to why then, you just 'see' and base arguments over the internet with random strangers on what you have seen in pixels without making an actual opinion as to what you have seen or why? Strange behaviour that, now I am the one who is confused.

5. Yet again you see I said something very very simple (allow me to refresh the memory "it is integral" ) and you reply to it with something seemingly unrelated to the very point I made.

6. What on earth are you talking about now? Signs, postures, alchemy? Have we taken a diversion to a Harry Potter movie? Do tell.

7. I am entirely unsure as to how to answer your discourse related to this point without appearing to be two things 1) impolite and 2) an armchair hardcase !
Your choice, you decide. Happy to oblige.

8. Clearly.



* A Cheung Lai Chuen Pak Mei class :-)

[sanjuro_ronin]

This is an internet forum and as such, it is a discussion forum so when one CHOOSES to participate one uses words ( shocking revelation, yes I know).
Telling people to train is NOT discussing nor is saying that someone is mistaken, wrong or mislead and NOT explaining why.
Since no one is FORCED to discuss ANYTHING it means that when one chooses to involved themselves in a discussion they should DISCUSS not demean.
So, to keep it simple, discuss or don't, but don't derail threads with "I have the real *insert TCMA* training but I won't tell you what it is" crap, not here.
Don't want to share or discuss? fine, DON'T, just keep out of the discussion.

A message from your friendly neighborhood moderator.

[Lai See]

This is an internet forum and as such, it is a discussion forum so when one CHOOSES to participate one uses words ( shocking revelation, yes I know).
Telling people to train is NOT discussing nor is saying that someone is mistaken, wrong or mislead and NOT explaining why.
Since no one is FORCED to discuss ANYTHING it means that when one chooses to involved themselves in a discussion they should DISCUSS not demean.
So, to keep it simple, discuss or don't, but don't derail threads with "I have the real *insert TCMA* training but I won't tell you what it is" crap, not here.
Don't want to share or discuss? fine, DON'T, just keep out of the discussion.

A message from your friendly neighborhood moderator.




You complain that I demean, that I derail and that I come here with crap.
This is friendly neighborhood moderation is it?

As it happens I do 'have' real Pak Mei, as do one or two other posters on here (Lau, Olaf, Yum Cha and Tiger on duty for example) and I have been quite open as to what it is. Perhaps more controversially also as to what it is not.

Yet all I am doing is to demean, derail etc according to you.

Sorry those above if I have chosen to name you without it being your wish for me to do so but you know what, sometimes there is standing up and being counted.


OK, Mr Friendly moderator fine. I got your message.

[TAO YIN]

Lai See,

3. So it's a Leopard Fist? Is it Bil Jee or not? And in Gau Bo Tui? What is it in the poem? Seeing as how you are so open as to what it is...

4. I do have an opinion why. Because SOME people think that if it isn't CLC Hong Kong Bak Mei, if it is from Har Hon Hung, or whoever else, it has nothing to do with Bak Mei Kung Fu and its principles. This concept beats the heell out of me.

5. Jik Bo is for basic fighting. It isn't designed to cultivate Chi. Sprinting is integral to Bak Mei.

6. These are basic concepts of Chi Gung. Go to Shaolin and ask one of the monks why they chant, and have for however long. CLC learned from a Monk right?

7. Copout...

8. Yes clearly. You don't practice the horse in your Jik Bo like Guangzhou Bak Mei does. Ask Yum Cha!

What is the real Bak Mei? What they practice in Guangzhou, Fatsan, Hong Kong? What line do you come from? Who is your teacher?

[sanjuro_ronin]

You complain that I demean, that I derail and that I come here with crap.
This is friendly neighborhood moderation is it?

As it happens I do 'have' real Pak Mei, as do one or two other posters on here (Lau, Olaf, Yum Cha and Tiger on duty for example) and I have been quite open as to what it is. Perhaps more controversially also as to what it is not.

Yet all I am doing is to demean, derail etc according to you.

Sorry those above if I have chosen to name you without it being your wish for me to do so but you know what, sometimes there is standing up and being counted.


OK, Mr Friendly moderator fine. I got your message.

I am glad that you got my message, which means I won't need to repeat it again and since it was direct to EVERYONE in general ( I am a tad tired of people coming into DISCUSSION forums and NOT discussing anything other than HINTS of thier supposed uber-knowledge), I hope that all got the message too.
:D

[Lai See]

I am glad that you got my message, which means I won't need to repeat it again and since it was direct to EVERYONE in general ( I am a tad tired of people coming into DISCUSSION forums and NOT discussing anything other than HINTS of thier supposed uber-knowledge), I hope that all got the message too.
:D

Fair enough.

Allow me to partially explain.
I am not going to type a full descriptive technical move by move by application analysis of a part of the set in particular on this discussion forum. If this then smacks of hinting, and I can in a way see that it may indeed do so then I apologise but I would hope that you would understand my reticence to do so.
It has never been done yet for any of the four core sets and I don't imagine that in my lifetime it will be. Even the photgraphs in Un Ho Bun's book are virtually impossible to mimic as those that know the set will understand, and those who have tried to follow it just from the pictures will also understand.

Good or bad, well that's up to the individual to decide, but the point about my training comment is that Pak Mei is one of those arts that is literally impossible to even gain a flavour for through words. You really do, - old chestnut that this may be - , have to see it and feel it.

One of difficulties I face in the discussion in this particular context is that the exact differences between for example the Pak Mei part of another art and the Pak Mei in and of itself is that it IS so very very different. You will have to take my word here that the reason for discussion about those differences is literally nothing whatsoever about chest beating who 'has' the real deal.
It is highlighted in the 'chi gung' issue. One voice says one thing and the other says the polar opposite.
An interesting read can be had on these very issues within a couple of recent books; Yandle's Pak Mei : A Dedication, and S.L. Fung's : Pak Mei.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Fair enough.

Allow me to partially explain.
I am not going to type a full descriptive technical move by move by application analysis of a part of the set in particular on this discussion forum. If this then smacks of hinting, and I can in a way see that it may indeed do so then I apologise but I would hope that you would understand my reticence to do so.
It has never been done yet for any of the four core sets and I don't imagine that in my lifetime it will be. Even the photgraphs in Un Ho Bun's book are virtually impossible to mimic as those that know the set will understand, and those who have tried to follow it just from the pictures will also understand.

Good or bad, well that's up to the individual to decide, but the point about my training comment is that Pak Mei is one of those arts that is literally impossible to even gain a flavour for through words. You really do, - old chestnut that this may be - , have to see it and feel it.

One of difficulties I face in the discussion in this particular context is that the exact differences between for example the Pak Mei part of another art and the Pak Mei in and of itself is that it IS so very very different. You will have to take my word here that the reason for discussion about those differences is literally nothing whatsoever about chest beating who 'has' the real deal.
It is highlighted in the 'chi gung' issue. One voice says one thing and the other says the polar opposite.
An interesting read can be had on these very issues within a couple of recent books; Yandle's Pak Mei : A Dedication, and S.L. Fung's : Pak Mei.

I can respect that view and when put this way, I agree with it.
Perhaps I am a bit "scarred" by the fact that too many here try to hide behind their animity to make themselves seem more than they are.
I didn't mean to offend you, I just wanted to take a stand on an issue that tends to plague our beloved TCMA's.

[Jorge]

Lai See,

Pak Mei releases energy via the internal. The HHBB posture, due to pulling in of the stomach brings the organs close to the spine, as we use the spine to relay and magnify the energy. Now the spine pulls energy from the a)organs b) dan tian? I have heard both! Which is right and which is wrong, thats for you to decide as I've come to my own reality. Also, it helps to mention that the posture activates an internal pump, of which it is said that we have three. Which internal pump does it activate?

Now, I understand that PM is an internal/external art and I present no arguement to that, but to say that PM has internal development like an internal art is wrong.

In order to fully develope your internal you needs meds. Its like trying to develope sticky hands without some type of chi sao or just doing chi sao to the air.

Understand, that the principles that govern PM is nothing new. All styles of southern mantis follow the same principles as PM, yet they have chi gung. Shhhh, Tai Chi shares some principles with PM and they have chi gungs.

Again, I'm not saying that PM has no internal. What I am saying, is that from my experience PM lacks on internal developement. Also, to consider Jik Bo as a chi gung is not 100% correct.

How many Iron palm methods does your school train? Does your school train iron jacket or does it go beyond that?

Bless,

buby

[Lai See]

I can respect that view and when put this way, I agree with it.
Perhaps I am a bit "scarred" by the fact that too many here try to hide behind their animity to make themselves seem more than they are.
I didn't mean to offend you, I just wanted to take a stand on an issue that tends to plague our beloved TCMA's.

Thank you for your honesty and for your answer.

[Jorge]

Sorry, it didn't let me edit my response.

So are you saying that GZ PM is different than HK PM?

Also, in YKM our PM is seperate to our Yau Kung Sup Batt Suerng Toy Juerng. As a matter of fact, only a few get to learn the YKSBSTJ.

What do you consider the 4 core sets? and were the core sets handed down from the monk?

I know I ask a lot of questions, but maybe you can address these.


Thanks in advance,

Jorge/Buby

[Jorge]

Also, I don't think mmy brother and I are saying two different things. He might be touching on more topics then me, but with regards to the Jik Bo being chi gung, or as benefical, I think we are in agreement.

Buby

[Tiger on Duty]

IMO the 3 core aspassesed 2 clc are Jik Bo, 9 step, saapbhat mor kiu. Tiger comes down could be considered the 4th. All else is filler.

[Yum Cha]

I am glad that you got my message, which means I won't need to repeat it again and since it was direct to EVERYONE in general ( I am a tad tired of people coming into DISCUSSION forums and NOT discussing anything other than HINTS of thier supposed uber-knowledge), I hope that all got the message too.
:D


Ahem... I don't believe I have ever 'hinted' at uber-knowledge.... I've outright claimed it!

You are ALL worthless and weak, because I have the Pei Mei 5 finger exploding heart death touch.

Don't mess with me, or I'll send chi balls of impotence to hunt you down.

[Tiger on Duty]

Pls stop that yum cha this is serious,

















I've already this week had 2 double my Viagra because of your blazing balls of impotence.

[Yum Cha]

Pls stop that yum cha this is serious,


I've already this week had 2 double my Viagra because of your blazing balls of impotence.

Hey, its a lot worse when it backfires...

[Lai See]

IMO the 3 core aspassesed 2 clc are Jik Bo, 9 step, saapbhat mor kiu. Tiger comes down could be considered the 4th. All else is filler.

What he said ^ :-)

[TAO YIN]

Lai See,

I know you think this is shiitty, but is it a Bil Jee or not? Or are we going with Kol La? Does it Float or Sink? Doest it Swallow or Spit? Does its energy follow horizontal circular motion, lateral circular motion, or vertical circular motion?

More or less...

1. Willow Leaf Palm
2. Straight Step
3. Ying and Yang Seizing Hands
4. Straight Step
5. Thrust Fingers
6. Phoenix Eye Fist
7. Straight Step
8 Tiger Claw Seizing, Ripping, throwing
9. Thrust Fingers
10. Phoenix Eye Fist
11. Straight Step
12. Tiger Claw, Seizing, ripping, throwing

[Yum Cha]

IMO the 3 core aspassesed 2 clc are Jik Bo, 9 step, saapbhat mor kiu. Tiger comes down could be considered the 4th. All else is filler.

I beg to differ....

I liken it to Tools and craftsmanship. Sure, craftsmanship goes beyond tools, but a good set of tools makes a big difference.

[Lai See]

I beg to differ....

I liken it to Tools and craftsmanship. Sure, craftsmanship goes beyond tools, but a good set of tools makes a big difference.

I agree with your analagy, in so far that as I have mentioned before I firmly believe that the tools need be there in order for the craftmanship to flourish.
I was taught, amongst other reasons, because I had a lot of tools to bring to the table. It is a pre-requisite for those that I teach. It doesn't mean beginners can't play, but they have to learn the tools first.
What I note is different is some places is that the core sets are 'sandwiched' by others, this is what I think TOD means by filler.

[Lai See]

Lai See,

I know you think this is shiitty, but is it a Bil Jee or not? Or are we going with Kol La? Does it Float or Sink? Doest it Swallow or Spit? Does its energy follow horizontal circular motion, lateral circular motion, or vertical circular motion?

More or less...

1. Willow Leaf Palm
2. Straight Step
3. Ying and Yang Seizing Hands
4. Straight Step
5. Thrust Fingers
6. Phoenix Eye Fist
7. Straight Step
8 Tiger Claw Seizing, Ripping, throwing
9. Thrust Fingers
10. Phoenix Eye Fist
11. Straight Step
12. Tiger Claw, Seizing, ripping, throwing

Sir, I have already clearly stated that I am not going to point by point go through Jik Bou here.
You enjoy yours and I'll enjoy mine, they are clearly different!! How's that?

[TAO YIN]

:confused:

Sir, yes, that is fine. But, just to make sure, clearly, these people are not doing "Bil Jee," even though the instructor yells "Bil Jee" at the 48-49 second point...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gq_BRPuP3Xg

Clearly, this man isn't doing "Bil Jee," it's just the eyes' imagination.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83JXCUrJqKE&feature=related

And every other vid on youtube that is Bak Mei. Plus they don't do it in 9 step. Now, if I can only find a clip of Yum Cha and his guys honing their waists, by doing horse stance with the "Bil Jee," then turning into front stance with the punch that really isn't a punch. But anyways.:p

[Lai See]

:confused:

Sir, yes, that is fine. But, just to make sure, clearly, these people are not doing "Bil Jee," even though the instructor yells "Bil Jee" at the 48-49 second point...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gq_BRPuP3Xg

Clearly, this man isn't doing "Bil Jee," it's just the eyes' imagination.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83JXCUrJqKE&feature=related

And every other vid on youtube that is Bak Mei. Plus they don't do it in 9 step. Now, if I can only find a clip of Yum Cha and his guys honing their waists, by doing horse stance with the "Bil Jee," then turning into front stance with the punch that really isn't a punch. But anyways.:p

Please look before you leap. Check back through the posts. Look very carefully for what I actually posted in this regard. Thank you.

[TAO YIN]

No, no, no...wait a minute. I am not leaping. I am not going back to read through the entire thread. But, you said something to the effect that Jik Bo didn't have a "Bil Jee," or a finger strike one. I have never seen any Bak Mei schools that did Jik Bo where it didn't look like a hard finger strike. I can think of only one school that does it differently.

Bak Mei's art, its forms, its 8 methods, its Geng Jak Ging, it's FCTT, and everything else, has Ying/ Yang theory relating to it. Jik Bo does too.

What is the Ying/ Yang theory in Jik Bo? And since it is Chi Gung (right?:rolleyes:), is it micro or macro cosmic orbit, or something else all together, and how does it relate to iron shirt? How is the Ying /Yang theory developed in Jik Bo?

[Lai See]

No, no, no...wait a minute. I am not leaping. I am not going back to read through the entire thread. But, you said something to the effect that Jik Bo didn't have a "Bil Jee," or a finger strike one. I have never seen any Bak Mei schools that did Jik Bo where it didn't look like a hard finger strike. I can think of only one school that does it differently.

Bak Mei's art, its forms, its 8 methods, its Geng Jak Ging, it's FCTT, and everything else, has Ying/ Yang theory relating to it. Jik Bo does too.

What is the Ying/ Yang theory in Jik Bo? And since it is Chi Gung (right?:rolleyes:), is it micro or macro cosmic orbit, or something else all together, and how does it relate to iron shirt? How is the Ying /Yang theory developed in Jik Bo?


Forgive me but you are leaping because I did not state that at all.
Hence why I asked politely that you re-read, because you indicate yourself that I said "something to that effect".
It appears to me that you cannot be bothered to look at what I actually said, yet you consistently 'call me out' for not explaining? Explaining what? That which you didn't read in the first place?

This is going nowhere fast because you are focusing on the finger and missing all the heavenly glory (pun very much intended).

Allow me to try to help you with at least one of your conundrums, in one fell slice.
Biu Gee/Biu Sau.

A thing 'looking like' another thing isn't necessarily ONLY the thing you think it is. Let me explain further with a story, and not a work of fiction either.

A man (lets call him Mr Smith) who had learnt some rudimentary 'kung fu' made friends with a Chinese fellow. The Chinese fellow taught him some more 'kung fu', but Mr Smith was far more interested in what the older Chinese fellow over in the corner of the room was doing. The younger of the Chinese men told him that the man was practising White Brow.
When Mr Smith asked if he could learn this White Brow he was politely told no. So what Mr Smith did was to memorise some of the movements that the older man was practising and practise them on his own.
Some years later he was teaching a system that included apparently in its repetoire 'White Eyebrow'.
Many years later after others had learnt from this man and in turn taught to others and so on. There were then, people all over who believed they 'had' White Eyebrow in their 'kung fu'.
They did not.
One day a man who had already learnt several martial arts (lets call him Mr Brown) learnt this system of 'kung fu' to a high level. He decided one day having some suspicions about the origins of said system that he would trace the roots as far back as he could. Eventually he found his way back to Mr Smith and found out the truth. The White Eyebrow within the system was in fact nothing but one mans rough interpretation of some physical movements.

[Killing Bridge]

Of course Biu Jee can be used as a cutting bridge! So could a punch or an elbow.

PM 101.

IS THIS WHAT HAS BECOME OF PAK MEI?

SOME PEOPLE WON'T SEE THE GOLD NO MATTER HOW HARD THEY TRY!!!

KB

[sanjuro_ronin]

Gentlemen, every move in ANY form has multiple applications.
That doesn't change what the ORIGINAL one was or that the first application or "standard" application anyone was taught is "wrong".
If there is anything wrong it is when anyone decides that a move can only be "A" and not "B" or "C".

[TAO YIN]

Lai See,

That's your big secret? That it's a bridge? Well, at least you said it now! I mentioned it being different moves before, sarcastically. I like using the punch as a Choy Kuil, so maybe the punch is a choy kuil. LOL!

I'll still bet that you probably breathe out when you practice that left "Bil Jee/ Sau/ Jow/ Seip Kuil/ ETC. Do you breathe out on that move?

What is the Ying/ Yang theory in Jik Bo? And since it is Chi Gung (right?), is it micro or macro cosmic orbit, or something else all together, and how does it relate to iron shirt? How is the Ying /Yang theory developed in Jik Bo?

[TAO YIN]

Lai See,

I forgot to ask, who is your story about?:confused:

You are Canada Bak Mei right? From Chow Fook? Have you ever seen a video of a guy doing Sup Baat Mor, and kicking his shoe off while doing it? LOL! Loved that vid...I think he was from your lineage, but I am not sure.

[Lai See]

For the record, I have never used the word secret, nor have I said that any particular application is wrong. If it came across that I was saying only 'A' counts then I didn't make myself clear. My point was entirely the opposite, as it appeared to me that this was what TAO YIN was stating. I'm all about 'A', 'B' and 'C'.

TAO YIN :

- I personally don't know what you mean by Choy Kuil (see below).

- You would lose that bet.

- I simply can't answer any of your questions in relation to orbits or shirts made of iron or theories, and its not through being difficult or secretive or bloody minded or wanting to appear 'superior' in any way on purpose.
We have to go back to words again and you need to try to understand that the words you are using don't mean a hill of beans to me and how I was taught. Thats just how it is!
This was my point earlier in this discourse. It's not about the words per se on screen its about the words in relation to the actual physical movement(s) and how and what each of us were taught during the learning of such things. My Biu whatever might well not be your Biu whatever. I was taught simply by doing and feeling and being corrected, then practicing over and over and over mostly 'live'. What it was called and what other words or phrases were involved or not wasn't deemed that relevant or necessary. The words were just not as important as the 'doing'. Whether that is 'right' or it is 'wrong' is another matter and one for which I don't frankly care much about.
Do you see what I mean?

- Not from Canada no.

[TAO YIN]

Lai See,

Thanks for the reply and your explanation. I understand what you mean now. Earlier, I was simply stating that the move is called "Bil Jee," in most schools. Of course, in application it could be '10,000.' I was making fun out of Choy Kuil, saying that the punch after the Bil Jee could be a bridge as well.

My main deal is Jik Bo, or any of the treasures being Chi Gung, and cultivating "Chi."

Let's forget about Macrocosmic Orbit for the moment, as it is a completely different can that would take far too much time to talk about because of everything that it includes...

Microcosmic Orbit comes from the I Ching. BASICALLY, your dan tien is a cauldron (note the cauldrons monks used to embrace to forever brandish their forearms Shaolin) that steams off clouds of fire's energy (Chi) into Heaven (your head) and returns. On a basic level, this is breath, this is us getting oxygen. But, in order for us to cultivate it we have to conceive it.

Jik Bo doesn't cultivate Chi that much. I can kind of see it cultivating it if you are breathing in on the Jik Bo step with Bil Jee strike, whatever, then out with the punch/ bridge, whatever. But again, not much. Mainly, it cultivates proper body mechanics. FCTT is proper body mechanics.

In all honesty, I don't know why we are arguing about it anyways, it's a stupid form.

[TAO YIN]

Lai See,

Where are you from then?

[TAO YIN]

Sup Baat Mors for you all...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irqNhOd1B1o&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZbPE3WosCY&feature=related

[Lai See]

Lai See,

Thanks for the reply and your explanation. I understand what you mean now. Earlier, I was simply stating that the move is called "Bil Jee," in most schools. Of course, in application it could be '10,000.' I was making fun out of Choy Kuil, saying that the punch after the Bil Jee could be a bridge as well.

My main deal is Jik Bo, or any of the treasures being Chi Gung, and cultivating "Chi."

Let's forget about Macrocosmic Orbit for the moment, as it is a completely different can that would take far too much time to talk about because of everything that it includes...

Microcosmic Orbit comes from the I Ching. BASICALLY, your dan tien is a cauldron (note the cauldrons monks used to embrace to forever brandish their forearms Shaolin) that steams off clouds of fire's energy (Chi) into Heaven (your head) and returns. On a basic level, this is breath, this is us getting oxygen. But, in order for us to cultivate it we have to conceive it.

Jik Bo doesn't cultivate Chi that much. I can kind of see it cultivating it if you are breathing in on the Jik Bo step with Bil Jee strike, whatever, then out with the punch/ bridge, whatever. But again, not much. Mainly, it cultivates proper body mechanics. FCTT is proper body mechanics.

In all honesty, I don't know why we are arguing about it anyways, it's a stupid form.

It is NOT a 'stupid' form.

I'm off to get a Tiger and dragon tattooed on my forearms.

I breathe, just the same as you do.

True colours, thank you.

[TAO YIN]

-Yeah, it's stupid. Straight, Cross. Big fuggin deal. (Oh, but in my travels I have used its bridging left and sacred right, extensively with my Geng Jak Ging, Sir). :D

-Careful on those. You've been to Shaolin right? Those urns really are heavy, even unfilled. You could buy one! Bus ride back to Zhengzhou or Luoyang would be the shiits though. Maybe you could talk the bus driver in to putting it underneath the bus.

-Yah for oxygen...

My true colours or colors? If it is, I thought I would give them. You said that Yau Kung Mun was a joke, so there you go.

[chusauli]

Sup Baat Mors for you all...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irqNhOd1B1o&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZbPE3WosCY&feature=related

Any Mang Fu Chut Lum?

[TAO YIN]

Chusauli,

No, Meng Fu won't show up on anything but high speed cameras. And even then it's pretty blurry...You have to be pretty quick even to pause it. You would think that if you played it slow-mo on a high speed camera that you could see the moves, but even then it is still blurry.

Is this supposed to be 5 elements in the snow?:eek:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Et8rzvAOlTE&feature=related