Do you practice a complete Martial Art?

[stonecrusher69]

An open question do you feel wing Chun is a complete martial Art. If so Why? How do you define a complete Martial Art? Can any martial art really be complete?

[pmosiun]

..........

[YungChun]

WCK is a complete method onto itself..

WCK (YipMan) does not traditionally cover all ranges of combat, eg, ground/grappling.

[k gledhill]

As the man said..."be like water my friend".

[stonecrusher69]

Even if Wc does not have grappling, ground fighting in its game etc. if one trains with guys who do and you are able to prevent or give them a hard time does that make WC a complete art?

[HumbleWCGuy]

It should be a complete striking art with no qualification.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Does anybody?

With the possible exception of Sambo, who can say that their art is legitimately complete?

And that's only because Sambo was historically a mixture of boxing, karate, judo, and catch wrestling.

It seems to me the better question is: "Should people try to complete their training with other arts?"

[Vajramusti]

Wing chun- as complete as any. The challenge is to adapt it to circumstances,

joy chaudhuri

[anerlich]

Joy is correct.

All good martial artists are continually evolving and reinventing themselves and their practices. Hopefully we re not dogmatists or fundamentalists.


Even if Wc does not have grappling, ground fighting in its game etc. if one trains with guys who do and you are able to prevent or give them a hard time does that make WC a complete art?

THe man in the glass booth would demand to see your video :p

[dirtyrat]

The challenge is to adapt it to circumstances,

True. And with a little imagination.....

[sanjuro_ronin]

Define complete.

[stonecrusher69]

Define complete.I asked this question to see if there was a definitive
answer to the question. To me, It depends on how you define a complete MA. In another forum this group of people who study the same art and from the same teacher defined it as a MA that includes, punching, kicking,throwing,etc in its training. I told them to me I would call it a comprehensive system but still not complete as any art is always changing and evolling how could it be completing complete? To me there is no such thing. They are many good MA but they are not complete IMO. We as humans also have weakness in some area. We'll never be fully complete no matter how hard or how long we train. Wing Chun was designed IMO as a simple system to accomplish multiple tasks in the shortest and simplest possible time. As time is limited one can never fully reach the mountain top but one can surly climb it.

[sanjuro_ronin]

You are correct, there are no complete systems.
One of the best ways to "measure" how complete your system is, is to compare a part of it with a system that specializes in it.
EX:
Your WC ( since this is a WC forum) has stick work, how compelte is it?
Compare it with a system like Lacosta Escrima or Pekiti-Tirsia Kali.
Your WC has standing grappling?
Compare it with freestyle or greco-roman wrestling, or JJJ.
Etc, etc.
Sometimes what we may perceive as complete is "just enough" to get us killed.
:D

[Frost]

You are correct, there are no complete systems.
One of the best ways to "measure" how complete your system is, is to compare a part of it with a system that specializes in it.
EX:
Your WC ( since this is a WC forum) has stick work, how compelte is it?
Compare it with a system like Lacosta Escrima or Pekiti-Tirsia Kali.
Your WC has standing grappling?
Compare it with freestyle or greco-roman wrestling, or JJJ.
Etc, etc.
Sometimes what we may perceive as complete is "just enough" to get us killed.
:D

or as some would put it jack of all trades and masters of non:D

[stonecrusher69]

You are correct, there are no complete systems.
One of the best ways to "measure" how complete your system is, is to compare a part of it with a system that specializes in it.
EX:
Your WC ( since this is a WC forum) has stick work, how compelte is it?
Compare it with a system like Lacosta Escrima or Pekiti-Tirsia Kali.
Your WC has standing grappling?
Compare it with freestyle or greco-roman wrestling, or JJJ.
Etc, etc.
Sometimes what we may perceive as complete is "just enough" to get us killed.
:D

This is a good idea.One always needs feedback and see how one is progressing. I do this to a degree myself but I don't pick a greco-roman wresting to test my grappling. I just train with different people who have trained in many types of arts and see how I do. All styles at some point will use more or less every mode of attack. After awhile you will get a fair assessment about your skill level.

[Frost]

This is a good idea.One always needs feedback and see how one is progressing. I do this to a degree myself but I don't pick a greco-roman wresting to test my grappling. I just train with different people who have trained in many types of arts and see how I do. All styles at some point will use more or less every mode of attack. After awhile you will get a fair assessment about your skill level.

not really you should test your abilities in a particular area against the best people in that area you can find, up until then you can be deluding yourself about hoe good you are at that skill. I thought my sprawl was good (i trained it against other kung fu stylists and kick boxers) the first time a good free style guy shot on me i realised i sucked at stopping the shot, i was not used to people turning the corner, sitting out etc.. Same way i thought my clinch was ok until i went against a guy now fighting in the UFC to say that was an eye opener was an understatment (actually it was more a eye closer as i went to sleep for a bit halfway through the sparring session)

[stonecrusher69]

Ok I'll keep that idea in mind..I had a friend of mind whose done many styles like karate, arnis,judo,wing chun,gracie JJ, akido and a few other style try his hand with a friend of his whose a state wristing champ. My friiend my pinned everytime in a a few seconds!!

[sihing]

Ok I'll keep that idea in mind..I had a friend of mind whose done many styles like karate, arnis,judo,wing chun,gracie JJ, akido and a few other style try his hand with a friend of his whose a state wristing champ. My friiend my pinned everytime in a a few seconds!!

A prime example of a jack of all trades vs a master of one....

Grappling is instinctive by nature in the fact that people want to grab and cover as soon as the sh!t hits the fan, the only thing is the grab/cover is done unskillfully. Striking on the other hand is much harder to succeed at simply because you have much less control while standing toe to toe with someone striking, as compared to taking someone down and sitting on them, which in some cases is all you may need to do with an assailant bent on harming you. The problem is you don't want to grapple on the street, as you don't know how many assailants you are dealing with. With striking at the least you can hit and run if necessary.

IMO the word complete MA is just another catch phrase, like other's in the past, Original, Traditional, Authentic, bla bla bla... Its someone's idea of putting things into a box, which is a result of too much thinking. How do you put random combative movement in a box? When you find out let me know:)

James

[tigershorty]

make the system work for you. don't be a slave to the system. don't miss the moon for the pointing finger. blah blah blah.

even with a complete system, a lot will never master it. it is what it is. i think wing chun is a complete system on paper, tho. not sure how many people are willing to dedicate the time and energy to it (a lifetime) to master anything anymore and on top if it, find someone to teach them with the same intensity. i got lucky with good teachers, so i'm happy. took half my life to find, tho.

[dirtyrat]

IMO the word complete MA is just another catch phrase, like other's in the past, Original, Traditional, Authentic, bla bla bla... Its someone's idea of putting things into a box, which is a result of too much thinking. How do you put random combative movement in a box? When you find out let me know:)

James


Well said! :cool:

[stonecrusher69]

Yeah I agree there is no perfect or complete MA. On paper it may be complete as you say but systems don't fight eachother people do. I'll take quality over quantity.

[tigershorty]

well, i would say there are complete systems. but people aren't complete. and you might be so much better than another fighter in a situation, that you acted like your system suggests completely. but if you lose, you didn't. and that's the reality. if you lose a fight, you didn't do what your system said. (and if you did, you might want to go back and check to make sure why)

a system can only be complete on paper as people can't be perfect all the time. maybe a few can- but even kobe bryant misses foul shots, you know what i'm saying?

i do want to say, tho..a system or sport or anything should be complete as possible. just cause a human may or may not ever be perfect, doesn't mean you shouldn't strive for perfection. what some may stuggle with, others might find it easy..and vice versa.

[sihing]

well, i would say there are complete systems. but people aren't complete. and you might be so much better than another fighter in a situation, that you acted like your system suggests completely. but if you lose, you didn't. and that's the reality. if you lose a fight, you didn't do what your system said. (and if you did, you might want to go back and check to make sure why)

a system can only be complete on paper as people can't be perfect all the time. maybe a few can- but even kobe bryant misses foul shots, you know what i'm saying?

i do want to say, tho..a system or sport or anything should be complete as possible. just cause a human may or may not ever be perfect, doesn't mean you shouldn't strive for perfection. what some may stuggle with, others might find it easy..and vice versa.

The search for perfection is really an illusion, and your going down the wrong road the wrong way if that is what you pursuing. All one can do is be the best they can be at any particular time, which means one will not always possess the same skills at the same level of proficiency, as things change over time, intent changes, and also your thoughts about why you are doing what you are doing change. The key thing is do you enjoy the process and self discovery that training in the Martial Arts provided, if you do then you've already won.

All this talk about what is right and wrong, good or bad, effective and ineffective, its all subjective and basically BS talk, especially on a Martial Arts forum. One cannot determine on here what works and what doesn't, as your experience is not mine and visa versa. I don't know if Bruce Lee stole this or made it up himself, but he said that all knowledge is self knowledge, and guess what, not all of us know the samethings.

James

[MartialDev]

If all my opponents are completely defeated, who says that isn't good enough?

Is it the loser? If so, then I agree--their art isn't complete. They need to go back and mix grappling, wrestling, striking, and whatever else they can find.

[Frost]

A prime example of a jack of all trades vs a master of one....

Grappling is instinctive by nature in the fact that people want to grab and cover as soon as the sh!t hits the fan, the only thing is the grab/cover is done unskillfully. Striking on the other hand is much harder to succeed at simply because you have much less control while standing toe to toe with someone striking, as compared to taking someone down and sitting on them, which in some cases is all you may need to do with an assailant bent on harming you. The problem is you don't want to grapple on the street, as you don't know how many assailants you are dealing with. With striking at the least you can hit and run if necessary.

IMO the word complete MA is just another catch phrase, like other's in the past, Original, Traditional, Authentic, bla bla bla... Its someone's idea of putting things into a box, which is a result of too much thinking. How do you put random combative movement in a box? When you find out let me know:)

James

or it could just be he was out of his depth with a state wrestling champ, as we all would be:rolleyes:

What is a jack of all trades? in one of my previous kung fu schools i learned about 7 weapons, chi chung, dozens of forms, the lion dance, unicorn dance, tai chi, chin na body conditioning etc how is that any less a jack of all trades than this guy who got beat by a wrestling champ?

As for not grappling on the street i probably don't want to ground fight (thats if i get the choice as you say people grab out of instinct then anything can happen) but standing grappling is sometimes a very good choice, as you say most people want to grab you and do it wrong, why stand and trade and risk a lucky punch when i can off balance him and hit him at will or throw him into a wall?

[tigershorty]

The search for perfection is really an illusion, and your going down the wrong road the wrong way if that is what you pursuing. All one can do is be the best they can be at any particular time, which means one will not always possess the same skills at the same level of proficiency, as things change over time, intent changes, and also your thoughts about why you are doing what you are doing change. The key thing is do you enjoy the process and self discovery that training in the Martial Arts provided, if you do then you've already won.

All this talk about what is right and wrong, good or bad, effective and ineffective, its all subjective and basically BS talk, especially on a Martial Arts forum. One cannot determine on here what works and what doesn't, as your experience is not mine and visa versa. I don't know if Bruce Lee stole this or made it up himself, but he said that all knowledge is self knowledge, and guess what, not all of us know the samethings.

James

i think you missed the point of what i was saying. the idea is what you're learning should be near perfect as possible. you obviously don't want to train in something where you say- oh, that concept is fundamentally flawed. that training method doesn't get the best results. that attribute development doesn't develop attributes as well as other things, etc. (and you can prove it)

obviously no one is perfect.

[sihing]

or it could just be he was out of his depth with a state wrestling champ, as we all would be:rolleyes:
Yes I agree. Your ability to do anything combat effective is reliant on two things, your own skills and ability to execute and your oponents skills and ability to execute, neither of which can be determined on a MA forum, but we have to start somewhere and ideas help that along.

What is a jack of all trades? in one of my previous kung fu schools i learned about 7 weapons, chi chung, dozens of forms, the lion dance, unicorn dance, tai chi, chin na body conditioning etc how is that any less a jack of all trades than this guy who got beat by a wrestling champ?
A jack of all trades is someone that goes from one art to the other, but only learns surface level stuff. Now for some arts, like TKD, which IMO is very basic in it's nature, one can learn this pretty fast, for the most part. Other arts, like BJJ and VT take longer as there is more to it. Not all arts are equal or the same when it comes to what they are teaching. Not trying to say here that TKD isn't effective but I wouldn't choose it or recommend it to someone if their goal was self protection.
As for not grappling on the street i probably don't want to ground fight (thats if i get the choice as you say people grab out of instinct then anything can happen) but standing grappling is sometimes a very good choice, as you say most people want to grab you and do it wrong, why stand and trade and risk a lucky punch when i can off balance him and hit him at will or throw him into a wall?
I agree, standing grappling is an option, as you can still run if you have to, and you can use the guy as a barrier if multiple opponents are the scenerio. You have to set this up though with strikes first, as no one is just going to allow you to grab them and put them in a hold.


James......

[stonecrusher69]

IMO there is no complete system or perfection as a fighter. One can improve and through exerience gain knownledge and pass it on,but it will always continue. what is complete today is not tomorrow. What might work today might not tomorrow so we must always test what we know to be true and find anopther way when something fails.

[Hendrik]

What complete martial art if one cant drop the mind and body; Instead, always is the slave of the mind and body ; mimic-ing some moves;

similar to practice and wish to step on the same flowing water twice ----- which cant be done.

[Frost]

James......

Originally Posted by Sihing



A jack of all trades is someone that goes from one art to the other, but only learns surface level stuff. Now for some arts, like TKD, which IMO is very basic in it's nature, one can learn this pretty fast, for the most part. Other arts, like BJJ and VT take longer as there is more to it. Not all arts are equal or the same when it comes to what they are teaching. Not trying to say here that TKD isn't effective but I wouldn't choose it or recommend it to someone if their goal was self protection.

But who decides what’s a surface level of knowledge and whats enough before you can move on? Just learning how to stand up in the guard and how to shrimp and put someone in the guard would be considered a surface level of skill by most BJJ guys, but who’s to say that’s not enough skills if someone is only looking for self-defences?

I know a number of TKD guys that have been involved in that art for a few decades that might argue with you calling their art very basic, just because it has a regimented training style and clear progression doesn't means its basic. BJJ doesn't really take any longer to learn, You can have someone for a few months of hard training and get them ready to defend themselves on the ground or in the clinch, now mastering BJJ can take a lifetime, as I suspect can mastering TKD, but all arts should be easy enough to teach and effective enough that a dedicated student can defend themselves in a matter of months not years, if not there is something wrong with the system or the way it is taught.

Personally if someone’s goal was self protection i would suggest avoidance and weapons over empty hand systems
I agree, standing grappling is an option, as you can still run if you have to, and you can use the guy as a barrier if multiple opponents are the scenerio. You have to set this up though with strikes first, as no one is just going to allow you to grab them and put them in a hold.

Actually you don't have to set it up with strikes, most times simply covering and letting the opponent come to you gets you in grappling range, you see this all the time in boxing (before the ref normally breaks them up) in most fights the clinch happens.... it’s really a matter of physics two bodies moving towards each other can’t occupy the same space without clashing and holding each other

[sihing]

Actually you don't have to set it up with strikes, most times simply covering and letting the opponent come to you gets you in grappling range, you see this all the time in boxing (before the ref normally breaks them up) in most fights the clinch happens.... it’s really a matter of physics two bodies moving towards each other can’t occupy the same space without clashing and holding each other

I'll make this as simple as I can. Everything everyone says on this forum is subjective, to their own experiences, knowledge, and thoughts. When I said TKD is a basic Martial Arts, that is based on my own experience with it. I did not say it to educate people, change their minds, or state a absolute truth (because there are none), I only stated my opinion. I've encountered many practitioners in TKD, attended their classes, sparred with them, and so forth. I even have students that practice the art, and guess what they tell me the samething, but once again that is subjective to, as it is based on their experiences and thoughts.

I also was not saying that the practitioners of the art are lousy fighters, as I was strictly speaking about the art form itself and what it teaches. There are great fighters in every Martial Art, but IMO that is more representative of the individual practitioner than the what they are training in.

Regarding standing grappling, in my experience, one needs to stun the opponent first and if they choose to apply a lock or takedown, things will be easier to apply when he's in a shocked state. Unless of course you are a world class practitioner, and the other guy is an absolute scrub, then you can do whatever you want, but how many world class practitioners are around here????

Gotta run...

James

[Frost]

I'll make this as simple as I can. Everything everyone says on this forum is subjective, to their own experiences, knowledge, and thoughts. When I said TKD is a basic Martial Arts, that is based on my own experience with it. I did not say it to educate people, change their minds, or state a absolute truth (because there are none), I only stated my opinion. I've encountered many practitioners in TKD, attended their classes, sparred with them, and so forth. I even have students that practice the art, and guess what they tell me the samething, but once again that is subjective to, as it is based on their experiences and thoughts.

I also was not saying that the practitioners of the art are lousy fighters, as I was strictly speaking about the art form itself and what it teaches. There are great fighters in every Martial Art, but IMO that is more representative of the individual practitioner than the what they are training in.

Regarding standing grappling, in my experience, one needs to stun the opponent first and if they choose to apply a lock or takedown, things will be easier to apply when he's in a shocked state. Unless of course you are a world class practitioner, and the other guy is an absolute scrub, then you can do whatever you want, but how many world class practitioners are around here????

Gotta run...

James

As you say we can only speak from experience and my experience from studying korean arts when i was younger was different

As for the standing grappling point again experience forms our views, mine is that throwing someone or tieing them up to hit them is very easy to do even if you are not a world class grappler, most people instictivly do the wrong things in the clinch, they either grab the head or leave their hips in and their elbows out and have no sense of base

Now if i was going for a standing lock i agree stunning them has to be your first tactic, but i was talking about higher percentage moves like clinching to knees or throws

[Dragonzbane76]

Ah.......... the pink, it hurts my eyes.........:p

[Chris L]

Would you consider a martial art as complete if it contained a comprehensive set of strategies/techniques for dealing with opponents who try to kick, punch, grapple), but itself prefers to focus on a certain strategy/range?

If a fighter has the ability to keep a fight in his preferred skills area does he need to diversify?

I suspect it comes down to the individual and their training, which leads to the usual debate of whether it is possible to develop good anti grappler/striker skills if you don't train with skilled people who are trying to take you out of your comfort zone and into theirs. The techniques may be within your martial art to combat other styles, but each individual must train them to make them effective

Having a good grappler in a WC club, or WC guy in your grappling class could benefit everyone.

One more point: The investment in training time needed in your own style to train techniques to counter other styles, and that to learn a completely different style to deal with that type of fighting may simplify the choice for many people

[RedJunkRebel]

What is the definition of complete? Do you mean complete mind, body and soul? Do you mean complete in the sense of training all ranges?

Is Wing Chun a complete martial art? It all depends on the interpretation of the practitioner.

For me, Wing Chun is both a philosophy of life as well as a method of self-defense.

As far as ranges go, I believe a modern training approach to Wing Chun should include all ranges, standing and on the ground. It includes before having a a "bridge" as well as once a bridge has been established. After all, Wing Chun is a concept-based art that can be taken to all ranges. It is very complete, flexible and fluid.

[Tom Kagan]

Define complete.

Allowing oneself and/or others to figure out who you are as a human being within the context of a mutually agreed ruleset of learning, applying, and passing on a methodology of hand-to-hand combat - whatever that ruleset may be.

[stonecrusher69]

What is the definition of complete? Do you mean complete mind, body and soul? Do you mean complete in the sense of training all ranges?

Is Wing Chun a complete martial art? It all depends on the interpretation of the practitioner.

For me, Wing Chun is both a philosophy of life as well as a method of self-defense.

As far as ranges go, I believe a modern training approach to Wing Chun should include all ranges, standing and on the ground. It includes before having a a "bridge" as well as once a bridge has been established. After all, Wing Chun is a concept-based art that can be taken to all ranges. It is very complete, flexible and fluid.


Does WC have an answers for any type of attack. Can you use only WC to defend against all styles? if it can then it would be complete if not then its incomplete.

[Knifefighter]

Regarding standing grappling, in my experience, one needs to stun the opponent first and if they choose to apply a lock or takedown, things will be easier to apply when he's in a shocked state. Unless of course you are a world class practitioner, and the other guy is an absolute scrub, then you can do whatever you want, but how many world class practitioners are around here????
Relying on "stunning" to take an opponent down is a recipe for getting beaten. Performing a takedown should be the result of specific biomechanical techniques that allow you to take down an opponent who is fully functional. If you have to "stun" an opponent to take him down, 9 times out of 10 your takedown is going to get stuffed.

[Knifefighter]

A prime example of a jack of all trades vs a master of one....

Grappling is instinctive by nature in the fact that people want to grab and cover as soon as the sh!t hits the fan, the only thing is the grab/cover is done unskillfully. Striking on the other hand is much harder to succeed at simply because you have much less control while standing toe to toe with someone striking, as compared to taking someone down and sitting on them, which in some cases is all you may need to do with an assailant bent on harming you. The problem is you don't want to grapple on the street, as you don't know how many assailants you are dealing with. With striking at the least you can hit and run if necessary.
Grappling is no more instinctive than striking. If anything, it's the opposite. Watch little kids get ticked off. They hit each other, not grapple.

Again, if anything, it's easier to punch someone in the face than it is to take him down and sit on him.

As far as grappling on the street, oftentimes that's exactly what you should do and sometimes it's what you have to do.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Grappling is no more instinctive than striking. If anything, it's the opposite. Watch little kids get ticked off. They hit each other, not grapple.

Again, if anything, it's easier to punch someone in the face than it is to take him down and sit on him.

As far as grappling on the street, oftentimes that's exactly what you should do and sometimes it's what you have to do.

I don't know about Dale...
I think striking is a more natural "first response" but grappling tends to the the "unavoidable outcome" in most "scraps".
Takedowns are hard, but KO's are even harder for the unskilled or regular guy.

[Knifefighter]

A prime example of a jack of all trades vs a master of one....


The master jack-of-all-trades knows how to take his specialized opponent into an area in which the opponent is unfamilar and unskilled. That's one of the reasons high level specialized bjj guys started to get beaten by the more generalized mma fighters.

[taai gihk yahn]

The master jack-of-all-trades knows how to take his specialized opponent into an area in which the opponent is unfamilar and unskilled. That's one of the reasons high level specialized bjj guys started to get beaten by the more generalized mma fighters.

exactly - u can b super skilled in one area, but if someone knows how to change the context on u, u'r screwed; this is why I never understood the "traditional" MA mindset that seemed to actually deride someone who studied different arts instead of sticking to just one thing their whole friggin' life - even to this day there r some yahoos on here who use the term "jack-of-all-trades" in a disparaging manner (Ali Rahim jumps to mind as an example); fact is, in the field of motor learning, the data clearly indicates that the more adept one is at moving between various contexts of performance, the better able one is to adapt to unforseen circumstances and transfer extant skills into novel situations; meaning that it actually makes more sense to train a variety of skill sets than it does to only stay with one;

[Knifefighter]

I don't know about Dale...
I think striking is a more natural "first response" but grappling tends to the the "unavoidable outcome" in most "scraps".
Takedowns are hard, but KO's are even harder for the unskilled or regular guy.

Striking is most instinctive, which is why it happens first. Grappling usually follows as a secondary response.

Taking someone down is probably easier than knocking someone out, but gaining and maintaining control on the ground probably isn't.

[lkfmdc]

A couple of somewhat random but related thoughts

1. In 1993 in a large public seminar Rickson Gracie said that once strikers (he said "kickboxers" but you know) learn some basic wrestling and jiu jitsu the dominance of BJJ would be over.... people sort of gasped when he said this, but, well, you know what happened

2. Never ceases to amaze me how people still think wrestling is about random brute strength... the more wrestling I get into, the more amazed I am at the art and science of it. Of course, if you have that technique AND are **** strong you have quite an opponent there (PRIDE era Mark Coleman)

3. Aquiring and retaining information is very hard... you have people like Erik Paulson of course, but generally, you have to get info from all over the place... my lord, my buddy just came back from Thailand and small things that they are doing differently in a different camp have kept us busy for 2 solid months... and I am talking about how a small concept can change basics you've done for YEARS

[sanjuro_ronin]

exactly - u can b super skilled in one area, but if someone knows how to change the context on u, u'r screwed; this is why I never understood the "traditional" MA mindset that seemed to actually deride someone who studied different arts instead of sticking to just one thing their whole friggin' life - even to this day there r some yahoos on here who use the term "jack-of-all-trades" in a disparaging manner (Ali Rahim jumps to mind as an example); fact is, in the field of motor learning, the data clearly indicates that the more adept one is at moving between various contexts of performance, the better able one is to adapt to unforseen circumstances and transfer extant skills into novel situations; meaning that it actually makes more sense to train a variety of skill sets than it does to only stay with one;

Someone has lamafied the correct !

[sanjuro_ronin]

Striking is most instinctive, which is why it happens first. Grappling usually follows as a secondary response.

Taking someone down is probably easier than knocking someone out, but gaining and maintaining control on the ground probably isn't.

Agree, 100%

[sanjuro_ronin]

and I am talking about how a small concept can change basics you've done for YEARS

**** tease !!
:D

[lkfmdc]

**** tease !!
:D

at this point, I couldn't explain it anyway, would have to show you... teh fact that Thailand has so many camps with so many fighters, who fight so frequently, wow, it's like a machine,

[sanjuro_ronin]

at this point, I couldn't explain it anyway, would have to show you... teh fact that Thailand has so many camps with so many fighters, who fight so frequently, wow, it's like a machine,

Yeah, I view MT in Thailand like Boxing in the States, perhaps even more so.

[lkfmdc]

Yeah, I view MT in Thailand like Boxing in the States, perhaps even more so.

boxing, by its nature, limits the game (hands)

Thailand, Muay Thai, wow, the "8 limbs" plus the clinching, plus how to train all that....

Right now we are also looking at how many "flavors" to it there are, it's amazing....

We are playing with something I personally have labeled "gorilla boxing"

[sanjuro_ronin]

boxing, by its nature, limits the game (hands)

Thailand, Muay Thai, wow, the "8 limbs" plus the clinching, plus how to train all that....

Right now we are also looking at how many "flavors" to it there are, it's amazing....

We are playing with something I personally have labeled "gorilla boxing"

Sounds interesting, a big brother of crazy monkey ?

[lkfmdc]

Sounds interesting, a big brother of crazy monkey ?

no, not at all related, more of an "attitude" thing, but the attitude changes the footwork, technique choice and power generation....

[Ultimatewingchun]

i think striking is a more natural "first response" but grappling tends to be the "unavoidable outcome" in most "scraps".
Takedowns are hard, but ko's are even harder for the unskilled or regular guy.

***I agree.

[sanjuro_ronin]

no, not at all related, more of an "attitude" thing, but the attitude changes the footwork, technique choice and power generation....

Hmmm, sounds like a lot of monkey kung fu to me ;)

[lkfmdc]

Hmmm, sounds like a lot of monkey kung fu to me ;)

Ironically, in many ways it harkens back to the old "Lama Pai" days....

[shawchemical]

Striking is most instinctive, which is why it happens first. Grappling usually follows as a secondary response.

Taking someone down is probably easier than knocking someone out, but gaining and maintaining control on the ground probably isn't.

Nope, grappling is the instinctive response for many people because they don't have the mindset that allows them to strike someone in anger.

Some people are more drawn towards striking, while some to taking the man down. I would still argue that the grappling is more instinctive.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Ironically, in many ways it harkens back to the old "Lama Pai" days....

Hmmm,interesting...gonna put out a clip about it?
Sounds like it's more of a "gravity feed" striking base....

[anerlich]

Maybe instinct is to strike in offense, grab and try to control in defense? Though maybe flinching and covering up are more instinctive in defense.

[goju]

Nope, grappling is the instinctive response for many people because they don't have the mindset that allows them to strike someone in anger.

Some people are more drawn towards striking, while some to taking the man down. I would still argue that the grappling is more instinctive.

i agree if you see most street fights they usually right away go for grabbing to the neck or head