forearms, elbows, bagwork

[uki]

having developed my own method of training bagwork, i noticed after youtubing some bagwork vids, that most of them are lacking the use of elbows and forearms, aswell as knifehand stikes, palm strikes, backhand strikes, and hammerfist combos... i also noticed that very few videos seem to be posted of people utilizing the entire 360 degrees around the heavy bag... most people seem to hop around keeping it at an arms length... punches are reminiscent of boxing, thrown in with the occasional whacked out elbow and random knee strike, yet fundamentual i noticed that there was a complete lacking of "merging" with the bag - in essence this is nothing more than the dominating presentation of bagwork, which like all things... has an inflected application.

i have discovered that using the entire forearm, wrist, and hand as the striking surface(from elbow to base of the pinky) allows one to transmit much more power when striking - it also allows one to interchange between types of strikes thrown in a manner that would resemble flowing water... distance is kept at a close range by applying tsai ching concepts while striking, thus hampering the ability of many kicks. i would appreciate any links or comments pertaining to this phenomenom.

i am not interested in understanding that being close opens you up to takedowns... i am only interested in the concept of standing and striking the heavy bag and it's various methods. :)

[lost lohan]

Hello Uki,

First I would like to say wow!, that is the most well thought out question I have ever heard on bag work! I agree with you that allot of people limit themselves when it comes to the heavy bag, as they usually treat it like a boxer does. Not many people are thinking about distance, or foot work, or 360 degrees, other than it applies to power shots. I have heard people comment about this person or that having good stand up skills, yet not seen that person once try side stepping a shot before coming in at a complete and different angle! Keep it up! As for your actual question, search for Chen Yong Fa and his dvd called "little arhat boxing/free sparring" I've seen clips on you tube but can't currently find the link. And you will see part of the CLF heavy bag form(sand bag dummy), which usually has elbows (ding) and downward back fists(a form of Gua or Kua depending) as well as a multitude of stances.

I will grant that in this clip, the student demonstrating is only standing in front of the bag, but I'm not sure he is demonstrating the entire hand set. When we work the bag, side stepping, and slipping behind is encouraged. As this is what you're trying to do in a fight. I like your description of using the entire hand, as this is a seldom discussed aspect of CMA. In CLF we use pek choi which is the entire forearm, fist, and wrist that is used for striking. You can also throw the Sau Choi where my school focuses on the thumb knuckle to slightly past the wrist as a striking surface. Many of these elements can then be taken to an elbow strike to continue the combo.

Good luck with your training, and please share any combos you come up with!

[dimethylsea]

Uki,
What do you mean by tsai ching?

[Dragonzbane76]

that most of them are lacking the use of elbows and forearms

so you've watched them all and are concluding your answer. And you believe the internet above all else?

First off, A lot of the strikes you've stated (knifehand, palm strikes, backhand?, hammerfist) are not combos that I would work on a heavy bag. They are not strikes I would consider when going full force on a heavy bag for the simple reason of prolonged work doing these on a heavy bag would lead to injury.

Full tilt on a heavy bag is not intended for these kinds of strikes IMO. You could do backfist, hammerfist, palm and even knife, but to me they are not strikes that are economical. Meaning they are not bread and butter. Pure power knockout is not what these strikes are intended. I'm not saying they do not have a purpose, only that they are not a heavy bag 'friendly' strike.

Many vids do show people 'squaring' off in front of a bag. And this is wrong IMO. You need to circle. maybe you've been watching the wrong vids or something, but I know when we train at my gym you always circle and always work bag or mitts in a realistic manner.

[dimethylsea]

First off, A lot of the strikes you've stated (knifehand, palm strikes, backhand?, hammerfist) are not combos that I would work on a heavy bag. They are not strikes I would consider when going full force on a heavy bag for the simple reason of prolonged work doing these on a heavy bag would lead to injury. .

This is why the ideal striking bag setup has a wrecking ball for every thai bag :D

That way you can work leg kicks and boxing on the thai bag, and other things on the wrecking ball.

Here is a clip of knees on a tear drop bag http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qY9_Mzx44Lo

[uki]

First off, A lot of the strikes you've stated (knifehand, palm strikes, backhand?, hammerfist) are not combos that I would work on a heavy bag. They are not strikes I would consider when going full force on a heavy bag for the simple reason of prolonged work doing these on a heavy bag would lead to injury. LOL... which amounts to people being a *****... how is possible that i go and beat the sh!t out of my new heavy bag at near full force going from a chopping knifehand strike, to elbow, to hammerfist all with one arm before switching to the other?? seems like a combo to me and that is just one... maybe you pansies need to juggle some iron balls to get yer soft little hands toughened up... LOL... i don't wear gloves either. i am discovering multiple combos utilizing movements and strikes from one arm only. amazing. :p


Full tilt on a heavy bag is not intended for these kinds of strikes IMO. You could do backfist, hammerfist, palm and even knife, but to me they are not strikes that are economical. Meaning they are not bread and butter. Pure power knockout is not what these strikes are intended. I'm not saying they do not have a purpose, only that they are not a heavy bag 'friendly' strike. bullsh!t. i have more power in my elbow, forearm, and backhand strikes than i do with my straight punch, this is because i train this way...a straight punch is more likely to break bones under the stress of power generated because it is al concentrated to the small area of the knuckles... a hammerfist strike is near impossible to break your hand using with power, or an open palm or backhand strike for the matter... simply human physiology 101. :)


Many vids do show people 'squaring' off in front of a bag. And this is wrong IMO. You need to circle. maybe you've been watching the wrong vids or something, but I know when we train at my gym you always circle and always work bag or mitts in a realistic manner.i would agree... in a real fight i am gonna pulverize my opponent with elbows, hammerfists, forearms, and headbutt strikes. :cool:

[Dragonzbane76]

LOL... which amounts to people being a *****... how is possible that i go and beat the sh!t out of my new heavy bag at near full force going from a chopping knifehand strike, to elbow, to hammerfist all with one arm before switching to the other?? seems like a combo to me and that is just one... maybe you pansies need to juggle some iron balls to get yer soft little hands toughened up... LOL... i don't wear gloves either. i am discovering multiple combos utilizing movements and strikes from one arm only. amazing.

haha lol... i could care less if you break your hand... go ahead pound away on it, you probably don't even wrap your hands do you when you do heavy bag work? Uki i'm just trying to give you advise, take it or leave it, but eventually doing what you are doing on the heavy bag will lead to injury.


bullsh!t. i have more power in my elbow, forearm, and backhand strikes than i do with my straight punch, this is because i train this way...a straight punch is more likely to break bones under the stress of power generated because it is al concentrated to the small area of the knuckles... a hammerfist strike is near impossible to break your hand using with power, or an open palm or backhand strike for the matter... simply human physiology 101.
I never said they don't have power... what i'm saying is they are not heavy bag FRIENDLY. If I want to do those kind of strikes including knees i'll use a wreaking ball, or tear drop. "simply human physiology"... you should probably tackle common sense before you rush off to the major leagues...lol.. :D

[uki]

you probably don't even wrap your hands do you when you do heavy bag work? that's what tendons and ligaments are for. :)


what i'm saying is they are not heavy bag FRIENDLY.are you kidding?? mine are best friends with the heavy bag... it was love first touch.

"simply human physiology"... you should probably tackle common sense before you rush off to the major leagues...lolcommon sense... hmmmm... i intend to approach the situation like this... to paraphrase a fine story...

a small child asked a wise master what the secret of good kung fu was, the master brought forth a small calf and replied, "take this calf in your arms and jump over this small sapling of a tree." so the young boy took the calf up in his arms and jumped over the sapling... he did this many times a day for many years until one day he stopped and asked the master, "for years and years i have took this calf which is now a cow and jumped over this tree that was once a sapling." the master nodded and replied, "THAT is the secret to good kung fu." :)

Uki,
What do you mean by tsai ching?tsai ching is the energy of two forces divided... sticky energy. using connection to stop an opponent from issuing forth strikes. example would be using your elbows and forearms to maintain connectivity to an opponents arms, hampering strikes, while simultaneously using hammerfists, chopping hands, or open hand strikes to attack neck or face... of course one must maintain an unconscious reflex to drop the arms or otherwise shield from say, knee attacks for instance. tsai ching is fundamentually the essence of dragon styles - merging and becoming one with your opponent... of course once you become one, you can attack yourself like a tiger on a tiger dose of catnip. :D

[goju]

i use many of those strikes on the bag and ive never wrapped my hands either(though depending on what im doing i wear boxing gloves) and im fine


i work different strikes like i would with boxing combinations

for example the jab, cross,hook can be a lead vertical fist, reverse punch, ridgehand

the jab cross can be a back fist, reverse punch or back fist. palm strike

or hook low with the left , elbow high , swinging forearm strike high


or double palm srike or punch(think popai or butterfly palm) followed by lead elbow

[Dragonzbane76]

it's your guys hands do what you want with them. I'm just saying if you do striking on a heavy bag regularly then you should wrap your hands. I do 3 sessions a week on the heavy bag, monday/tuesday/friday. giving a day in between for recovery and joints.
That's not counting mitt work at classes.


that's what tendons and ligaments are for. :rolleyes:

this has nothing to do with tendons ligaments. It has to do with your joints. Pounding the heavy bag without wraps is hard on the joints. Wrapping aligns the hand and wrist and compacts it so your not absorbing shock into the joint.

[SAAMAG]

The wrapping of the hands for me is mostly to protect the skin amidst long periods of continuous striking and to support the wrist as well in the event of collapse to due a mistake on my part.

But all in all, I use bag work to develop power and to improve my conditioning. Yes I work on footwork, slipping, set-ups, circling, even the swinging of the bag gets taken into consideration for the timing of the strikes and so forth.

But there are several tasks you can take with the heavy bag. You might be working on it using tabada type drills for conditioning, you might be working it for kicks only, you might be working it as a simulated "sparring" session. You might be working it for footwork, circling and the like.

So that could also be the reason why you're not seeing everything in one video--because a session is a lot of times done with a specific objective in mind.

[uki]

So that could also be the reason why you're not seeing everything in one video--because a session is a lot of times done with a specific objective in mind.i find that a bit absurd in a sense... what i am alluding to is a mentally constructed barrier that seems to affect the majority of average practioners by keeping them in these "objective" state of mind, where they are focused on one thing only... yet wouldn't this mindset be detrimental to ones training?? in a sport fight or street fight, unpredictability is the only predictible variable of each individual circumstance - i feel that it is to ones advantage to develop this mindset of having "no mind" while working the heavy bag by adapting to it and utilizing ALL strikes as they arise from reflex of the unconscious mind.

some other concepts i have discovered while working the bag is to incorporate the bag work into form work... example would be that in most of my forms, there are multiple attackers, they're everywhere and replacing one of the "phantom oponents" with something that is tangible(the heavy bag) you can effectively alter the quaility of your form work - the mind now has something to see with thru the eyes instead of the head. for me, the optimal heavy bag set up would be three of them triagulated, the practioner starting in the center - the possibilities endless. :)


it's your guys hands do what you want with them. I'm just saying if you do striking on a heavy bag regularly then you should wrap your hands. I do 3 sessions a week on the heavy bag, monday/tuesday/friday. giving a day in between for recovery and joints.
That's not counting mitt work at classes. i have been working it everyday now and it seems to be well accepted by my body, abit sore in a sense, but all new activities create soreness.


this has nothing to do with tendons ligaments. It has to do with your joints. Pounding the heavy bag without wraps is hard on the joints. Wrapping aligns the hand and wrist and compacts it so your not absorbing shock into the joint.hmmm... good strong tendons and ligaments help keep the joints pulled snug aswell as adding their own protection - tendons and ligaments have the potential to be developed far stronger than steel cables. :)

[Frost]

i find that a bit absurd in a sense... what i am alluding to is a mentally constructed barrier that seems to affect the majority of average practioners by keeping them in these "objective" state of mind, where they are focused on one thing only... yet wouldn't this mindset be detrimental to ones training?? in a sport fight or street fight, unpredictability is the only predictible variable of each individual circumstance - i feel that it is to ones advantage to develop this mindset of having "no mind" while working the heavy bag by adapting to it and utilizing ALL strikes as they arise from reflex of the unconscious mind.

some other concepts i have discovered while working the bag is to incorporate the bag work into form work... example would be that in most of my forms, there are multiple attackers, they're everywhere and replacing one of the "phantom oponents" with something that is tangible(the heavy bag) you can effectively alter the quaility of your form work - the mind now has something to see with thru the eyes instead of the head. for me, the optimal heavy bag set up would be three of them triagulated, the practioner starting in the center - the possibilities endless. :)

i have been working it everyday now and it seems to be well accepted by my body, abit sore in a sense, but all new activities create soreness.
hmmm... good strong tendons and ligaments help keep the joints pulled snug aswell as adding their own protection - tendons and ligaments have the potential to be developed far stronger than steel cables. :)

you need to
a)be shown how to actually hit a heavy bag with power
b) read a good anatomy book
c) Probably do some sparring (then you will see why people actually use the heavy bag the way they do)

[uki]

you need to
a)be shown how to actually hit a heavy bag with powerhmmm... my girlfriend complains that i am shaking the entire house... obviously there must be some power in there, no?? :)


b) read a good anatomy bookwho's to say i have no understanding of physical anatomy already?


c) Probably do some sparring (then you will see why people actually use the heavy bag the way they do)i bet the people i spar see why i hit the heavy bag the way i do aswell. :rolleyes:

[Frost]

hmmm... my girlfriend complains that i am shaking the entire house... obviously there must be some power in there, no?? :)
who's to say i have no understanding of physical anatomy already?
i bet the people i spar see why i hit the heavy bag the way i do aswell. :rolleyes:

no no and i doubt it

[uki]

no no and i doubt itvery good.

[Frost]

well i cpuld point out how every one of your posts screams this person has no actual knowledge of how the human body works....or how your girlfriend telling you off for making the house shake does not mean you have any power.... or how i can tell you don't spar much by the things you say.....but its pointless chatting to you:D Dragon76 was nice and pointed out how and why the heavybag is used and how and why raps and gloves are used and all you can say are people are pussies

[uki]

well i cpuld point out how every one of your posts screams this person has no actual knowledge of how the human body works....or how your girlfriend telling you off for making the house shake does not mean you have any power.... or how i can tell you don't spar much by the things you say.....but its pointless chatting to you:D Dragon76 was nice and pointed out how and why the heavybag is used and how and why raps and gloves are used and all you can say are people are pussieswhatever dipsh!t... i am soon to post videos of a 2 minute stretch of some "casual" bag work... i am most sure you will agree with my seeming "unknowledgable" understanding of the finer details of the arts... i mean if people can post videos of themselves hitting the bag the way they do, then i am MOST definitely gonna post a video of me hitting the bag the way i do.

you'd be amazed at the depth of my understanding, but i am sure you won't take my word for it. :)

[Frost]

whatever dipsh!t... i am soon to post videos of a 2 minute stretch of some "casual" bag work... i am most sure you will agree with my seeming "unknowledgable" understanding of the finer details of the arts... i mean if people can post videos of themselves hitting the bag the way they do, then i am MOST definitely gonna post a video of me hitting the bag the way i do.

you'd be amazed at the depth of my understanding, but i am sure you won't take my word for it. :)

Sticks and stones sonshine sticks and stones :D
those guys also put up videos of themsleves using the same techniques on the bag in actual fights, will you do that as well for us...pretty please?!

[Lee Chiang Po]

One does not have to put his guts into a punch to make it effective. Wrapping the hands is a good idea when you are training boxing, but to train the hands is even more important for gung fu of any style. Wrapping the hands artificially tightens then and holds them in alignment. If you had to do the same with unwrapped hands you would not be near as effective. I started out striking gently and went from there. Evntually I could focus lots of energy into a punch that would hold it's form and alignment.
Another thing to think about is that an elbow and knee is only good in a clinch or if you are being manhandled. In a squared off fight they are way to short a weapon to be of any benefit. And besides, I know it feels powerful, but it is not as powerful as it feels. Not saying you can not cause injury with an elbow or knee, but it has to hit into a very vulnerable area to be of serious effect. And besides, in order to get in close enough in a square off it can get you hammered. It don't hurt to train it as a close in system, but trying to develop power is not really worthwhile as you will only be able to develop just so much power in a rough and tumble anyway.
I say these things out of experience. I can't count the times I have been slammed full in the face with an elbow. I admit it hammered me and sometimes it actually hurt real bad when the tip of the elbow struck my face bones, but it never stunned me enough to prevent me from retaliating. The power just wasn't there. It was always when we were in a clinch, as it would have been difficult for him to strike me from a stand off, and he would have had to move in close to effect an elbow punch.

[uki]

those guys also put up videos of themsleves using the same techniques on the bag in actual fights, will you do that as well for us...pretty please?!give me a break... i just got the bag and having access to a video camera is a random event - it's all about small moves man. :p