Yiquan

[kfson]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yiquan

"Yi quan, also known as dacheng quan, is a martial art system which was founded by the Chinese xingyiquan master, Wang Xiangzhai (王薌齋)."
____________________________________

Anyone practice this form (unform)? Could you describe for us what your experiences are with Yiquan?

[uki]

wow. nice... this would by wiki-definition, be the manifestation of my style as it has been solely developed thru myself by watching and observing the inter-reactions of yin and yang in nature. bruce lee called this concept jeet kune do or "being like water" - to the order of shaolin, it is known as the silver dragon. what a wonderful piece you have put into my puzzle. :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4y_JHvRKp6M

[MasterKiller]

to the order of shaolin, it is known as the silver dragon.

Why do you insist on giving those morons any validity?

[David Jamieson]

Why do you insist on giving those morons any validity?

It's his primary source. He is having trouble letting go if it because he has decided that his belief in it is stronger than the reality of it.

:)

[uki]

http://neigong.net/category/martial-art/yiquan/ :p

[taai gihk yahn]

without having read the wiki article, my understanding is that the whole "idea" behind yiquan was that Wang Xiangzhai was of the opinion that a) practicing forms was an artifact and a waste of time (:eek:) and b) that because of the emphasis on forms practice as opposed to live drilling, TCMA had lost its capacity for practical application (:eek::eek::eek:); and this from a man whose base system was xingyi, mind you, hardly a system known for "flowery" hands!

the foundational practice of the style is standing and Wang supposedly would have students do standing, in front of him, for 8 hours straight as a "test" of their mastery (this is based on, AFAIK, 3rd hand report, I believe); after standing practice there is some solo movement practice, but much of the style is dedicated to live partner work: close quarter bridging work that looks like a hybrid of push hands and chi sao; then they do a lot of non-contact sparring work as well;

in regards to the standing, Wang's purpose for this was to create fluidity in movement; personally, I can attest to how practicing standing worked for me in this regard; whether it makes me a better fighter, I don't know, but qualitatively my taiji movement has continued to be less disjointed over the years; I attribute this to standing because I have experimented by not practicing taiji for periods of time and focusing on standing alone, and then doing taiji and seeing the differences, as well as having it verified by my teacher watching me; just a subjective perspective, of course, I am unable to generalize this phenomenon;

the interesting thing is that when u see yiquan guys fight, it looks more like boxing / kickboxing than it does TCMA "fighting" (whatever that really may be); suggesting that, if Wang was looking for a "natural" stye of fighting, that us silly, external westerners might actually be onto something!

rumor has it that no one cared to fu(k w/Wang, and he supposedly had a running add in a Beijing newspaper inviting all comers, and despite many challengers, was undefeated; of course, I have no proof of this, so it's hard to say for certain;

[kfson]

without having read the wiki article, my understanding is that the whole "idea" behind yiquan was...

Thanks, that was a good post.

[David Jamieson]

without having read the wiki article, my understanding is that the whole "idea" behind yiquan was that Wang Xiangzhai was of the opinion that a) practicing forms was an artifact and a waste of time (:eek:) and b) that because of the emphasis on forms practice as opposed to live drilling, TCMA had lost its capacity for practical application (:eek::eek::eek:); and this from a man whose base system was xingyi, mind you, hardly a system known for "flowery" hands!

the foundational practice of the style is standing and Wang supposedly would have students do standing, in front of him, for 8 hours straight as a "test" of their mastery (this is based on, AFAIK, 3rd hand report, I believe); after standing practice there is some solo movement practice, but much of the style is dedicated to live partner work: close quarter bridging work that looks like a hybrid of push hands and chi sao; then they do a lot of non-contact sparring work as well;

in regards to the standing, Wang's purpose for this was to create fluidity in movement; personally, I can attest to how practicing standing worked for me in this regard; whether it makes me a better fighter, I don't know, but qualitatively my taiji movement has continued to be less disjointed over the years; I attribute this to standing because I have experimented by not practicing taiji for periods of time and focusing on standing alone, and then doing taiji and seeing the differences, as well as having it verified by my teacher watching me; just a subjective perspective, of course, I am unable to generalize this phenomenon;

the interesting thing is that when u see yiquan guys fight, it looks more like boxing / kickboxing than it does TCMA "fighting" (whatever that really may be); suggesting that, if Wang was looking for a "natural" stye of fighting, that us silly, external westerners might actually be onto something!

rumor has it that no one cared to fu(k w/Wang, and he supposedly had a running add in a Beijing newspaper inviting all comers, and despite many challengers, was undefeated; of course, I have no proof of this, so it's hard to say for certain;

hmmmn sounds approximate to the thinking behind e-chuan and i-chuan as well


also...dog brothers approach to study of tcma. lol

[taai gihk yahn]

http://neigong.net/2008/05/29/grandmaster-wang-xiang-zhai-1885-1963/

some key excerpts (bold mine):
"People often say that ‘Xingyi’, ‘Taiji’, ‘Bagua’ and ‘Tongbei’ are internal styles, I do not know how the names of internal and external came about, so I cannot comment on that."

"As masters of the original ‘Taijiquan’, I should recommend the Yang brothers Shaohou and Chengfu. They are also old friends of mine, thus I know that this boxing really has some knowledge of mechanics, but out of one hundred persons not even one gains its essence, and even if one can gain it, it is still one-sided, because the basic skills of intuitive perception already died out a long time ago, thus their lower bodies have no real strength to speak of. Originally this boxing consisted of three fists, also called the “old three cuts”, Mr. Wang Zongyue changed it into “thirteen postures”, and it was later changed into as much as one hundred and forty or fifty postures, this is the major reason for the distortion.
For health preservation, it restrains the spirit and mettle, and brings discomfort to the practitioner. For combat, it harms the practitioner’s limbs and trunk, and causes the useful body to become a mechanical and stiff thing, it also disturbs the student’s nerves, and is nothing more than wasting one’s time. As for its method of training, a punch with a fist here, a slap with the palm there, a kick to the left, and another one to the right, that is pitiful and laughable.
As for dealing with an enemy in a fight, against a master-hand, please do not even consider it, if the adversary is not stiff and sluggish, even the famous masters of this boxing have no chance to apply their skills. These abuses are so big that ‘Taijiquan’ might soon become just a mere form comparable to a chess manual. For the last twenty years, most people who have studied this boxing have not been able to differentiate right and wrong, even if someone has been able to differentiate them, he has not been capable of putting it into practice. As for common students, most of them use their ears instead of their eyes.
So ruined is this boxing that it has become useless, this is really deplorable. I wish that the powerful members of this school would promptly and strictly clean it up, and attempt to develop it in the future. When the day of success comes, they will be held as the bosom friends of all the boxing fans. I dare to say that I understand ‘Taijiquan’ deeply, those who do not agree, can notify me or lay the blame on me, only the wise ones might understand. At the same time, I suppose those who have really gained something in their study of ‘Taijiquan’, when they read this, they will nod in agreement and cannot help laughing."

"‘Tongbeiquan’ is popular in northern China , especially in Beijing . The practitioners I have met were mostly out of shape, however, some were also holding a theory that was close to being right, but when checking their skills, they were very far from it. "

"The boxing arts of our nation are in a chaotic state, thus the people cannot know what course to take. Summed up, they have abandoned the quintessence and kept only the scum, nothing more. Although the martial arts of Japan and the boxing of Western Europe are one-sided, they all have their original points. In comparison to an ordinary boxer of our nation, they are countless miles ahead."

"All learning in the world depends on comparison, only that way can good and bad be distinguished, otherwise every school will claim to be right, and the laymen will have difficulties distinguishing right and wrong. The correctness of boxing cannot be judged merely by the criterion of victory or defeat, it must be judged by whether it is reasonable and suitable to the human needs or not. What is reasonable is achieving comfort, gaining strength, and getting zest into one’s life. If one does not achieve comfort, gain strength, and if the study does not bring zest into one’s life, then it cannot be called boxing.
Whether one knows of the history of boxing or not does not matter at all, one should only see whether there is any value in regard to learning and whether it accords with the requirements of life. But speaking of the combat science of our nation, it has a centuries-old history. It began revealing its brilliance in the Warring States Period (403 BC – 221 BC), and gradually advanced and evolved. During the times of the Tang and Song dynasties, boxing started to turn into technical skills and different styles started to evolve. During the Yuan, Ming, and early Qing dynasties, the different schools were most popular.
There were very many practitioners, and only because their strength, skill, and attainments were different and some being wise and others stupid, boxing broke into different schools, each claiming its teachings as correct. Those schools are namely what are now called the various styles. During the reigns of Kangxi and Yongzheng of the Qing dynasty (1662 – 1735), firearms were not yet prevalent. The emperors feared that the martial arts would be used against the government, therefore they wanted to destroy them for good and so that they could never recover.
Therefore they started to influence the people to think highly of the civil arts and look down upon everything martial. On one hand they advocated flying immortal swordsmen and taught the mystical on purpose, on the other hand they praised the boxing forms and fixed techniques in order to lead the martial arts astray. The middle road and the great Tao could not be asked about, and they used opera and storybooks to serve as their tools of propaganda. Furthermore they made the people who practised martial arts to be despised by the scholar-bureaucrats, so the situation went from bad to even worse. All kinds of ugly performances emerged, what a great pity and tragedy.
Luckily our combat science predecessors secretly had successors, and they succeeded in having a gleam of light survive. Although training halls were set up all over the country to advocate the martial arts during the last twenty years, the more they were advocated, the sooner they would be lost, never being able to return to the right path of combat science. In fact, learning boxing is not difficult, but because the brains of the ordinary people are tormented by the storybooks, and furthermore, because the boxers of modern times mostly do it for living, the combat science is completely at loss. Even if some people are conscious of that, they are still too ashamed to study from others, and thus have no way out.
During the last half of the year, the other boxers have come to me to compare their skills in combat. I will not point out who they were, in order to let them keep their ways of making a living. Now they mostly understand that they were wrong, but why do they not agree to come and discuss the martial arts openly, and furthermore, why are they not willing to compare their skills in combat, in order to improve their learning? On the contrary, they go against their conscience and claim others to be wrong. They do nothing but secretly create absurd tales, and still they pretend being ignorant of those tales. What do they do that for? As for the non-professional martial artists, they want to become mysterious boxers by creating these tales, being like theatregoers not well versed in drama, they are not able to do anything but throw punches at random to show off their skills.
That is really something to be despised. In case my words are considered erroneous, can the non-professional boxing students agree to grant me instruction? Furthermore, I wish to have small friendly tests of skills in combat, and even if the people who come to me have no martial skills at all, I will not insult them, and I will not tell about them to other people in order not to harm their business. If one cannot come to visit me to grant me instruction, then please tell me the place and the time, and I will come to pay my respects on time. If one has even a tiny strong point, I will do my utmost to give him publicity, and if one has no strong points at all, I will keep my mouth shut. If one always considers oneself as a top boxer behind closed doors, that is not worth a penny."

guy sounds a lot like bawang...

[CFT]

hmmmn sounds approximate to the thinking behind e-chuan and i-chuan as wellThat's just yiquan with a different Chinese romanization scheme. I think they are one and the same.

[David Jamieson]

*snippage here*[/B]"

guy sounds a lot like bawang...


But a lot more of a windbag obviously.

At least Bawang has a handle on the zen of his feces flinging. :)

[David Jamieson]

That's just yiquan with a different Chinese romanization scheme. I think they are one and the same.

I've heard proponents from each making it clear that they are indeed different.
I've also seen someone make that same statement as you only to be admonished for it. :)

[bawang]

http://neigong.net/2008/05/29/grandmaster-wang-xiang-zhai-1885-1963/




that old man is right. internal martial arts is a lot like the story of the emepror's new clothes. people pull wool over their own eyes.

ppl know what is wrong for a long time. but everyone is too scared to do anything. 200 years ago noone wants to change mistakes, then 150 years, then 100, then 50, then today.

todays kung fu what is wrong is right. up is down left is right. u eat wit ur ass and sh1t out ur mouth. u train to fight to not fight. everything is upside down and doesnt make sense.

[taai gihk yahn]

that old man is right. internal martial arts is a lot like the story of the emepror's new clothes.

the thing is, he wasn't just taking about internal arts: he was pretty much trashing most everything - his comment about tantui was something like, "I'm not even going to bother saying anything";

I think he is at least worthy of due consideration considering that he was one of the few to speak up; ironically, for all the TCMA folks who dump on San Da / MMA, my sense is that he would have been all for it, as compared to how MOST TCMA schools still do things;

interesting thing to consider: he advocates standing practice as an important component of fighting; seems as if some MMA peeps understand the value of so-called "static practice" as well:
http://balancestudios.net/programs/yoga-for-fighters-bjj-brazilian-jiu-jitsu-mma-mixed-martial-arts-grappling/
http://mmastuff.ws/mma/yoga-and-mma
not generalizing, just sayin,...

[taai gihk yahn]

that old man is right. internal martial arts is a lot like the story of the emepror's new clothes. people pull wool over their own eyes.

ppl know what is wrong for a long time. but everyone is too scared to do anything. 200 years ago noone wants to change mistakes, then 150 years, then 100, then 50, then today.

todays kung fu what is wrong is right. up is down left is right. u eat wit ur ass and sh1t out ur mouth. u train to fight to not fight. everything is upside down and doesnt make sense.

well bro, at least u r willing to look at things w/out fooling urself - that's more than most are willing to do; "be the change that u want to see", or sumthing like that

[sanjuro_ronin]

He makes some very valid points and states well know facts.
But, this, if true, worries me:

he foundational practice of the style is standing and Wang supposedly would have students do standing, in front of him, for 8 hours straight as a "test" of their mastery (this is based on, AFAIK, 3rd hand report, I believe); after standing practice there is some solo movement practice, but much of the style is dedicated to live partner work: close quarter bridging work that looks like a hybrid of push hands and chi sao; then they do a lot of non-contact sparring work as well;

[bawang]

well bro, at least u r willing to look at things w/out fooling urself - that's more than most are willing to do; "be the change that u want to see", or sumthing like that

if training kung fu is ur entire life how can u do nothing
dood

[taai gihk yahn]

He makes some very valid points and states well know facts.
But, this, if true, worries me:

well, I heard it from a student of a student of a student, so, you know...

but what specifically worries you about it?

addendum:
oh - when I say "non-contact", sorry, I meant as in starting without being in contact with each other to start with, like when you train chi sao / trapping, not as in not hitting each other...LOL, that WOULD be a problem!

[sanjuro_ronin]

well, I heard it from a student of a student of a student, so, you know...

but what specifically worries you about it?


oh - when I say "non-contact", sorry, I meant as in starting without being in contact with each other like when you train chi sao / trapping, not as in not hitting each other...LOL, that WOULD be a problem!

Someone advocating a more practical approach to MA, advocating fighting and yet, not fighting.

[bawang]

probably just a story

more realistically would be holding a 200 pound barbell in horse stance or a 50 pound stone ball in standing post or tying a giant mill to ur testicles and dragging it

[sanjuro_ronin]

probably just a story

Well, I once stood in a horse stance for a whole freaking hour !
Why?
Do some masters daughter and find out for yourself !
:D

[taai gihk yahn]

Someone advocating a more practical approach to MA, advocating fighting and yet, not fighting.

wel, the guy wasn't just going to chuk his entire culture out the window; standing practice, IMPE, is about developing increased awareness of your body in space in as non-contextually complex a situation as possible: it's about feeling how your body changes in gravity when you are standing still, in order to have more acute awareness when you start moving; it also helps release excess tension, it teaches you to feel how ground reaction force moves up through your structure to give you that "floating" effect, it teaches you about calming the discursive mind, etc., etc.; it's not a bad thing to do in general, although i agree that the contribution to fighting is incidental as opposed to prerequisite

but again, AFAIK, they also put on the gloves and banged away at each other - I think Ross posted some vids of them training heavy bag, footwork, etc. at one point (although I understand that there are some peeps out there doing yiquan who reverted back to the "I touch you and you go sailing through the air" silliness as well...)

[taai gihk yahn]

Well, I once stood in a horse stance for a whole freaking hour !
Why?
Do some masters daughter and find out for yourself !
:D

She made you stand in horse for an hour? was that before or after she let you in the Jade Gate?
:D:D:D

[CFT]

She made you stand in horse for an hour? was that before or after she let you in the Jade Gate?
:D:D:DOr during? You da man S_R!

[sanjuro_ronin]

wel, the guy wasn't just going to chuk his entire culture out the window; standing practice, IMPE, is about developing increased awareness of your body in space in as non-contextually complex a situation as possible: it's about feeling how your body changes in gravity when you are standing still, in order to have more acute awareness when you start moving; it also helps release excess tension, it teaches you to feel how ground reaction force moves up through your structure to give you that "floating" effect, it teaches you about calming the discursive mind, etc., etc.; it's not a bad thing to do in general, although i agree that the contribution to fighting is incidental as opposed to prerequisite

but again, AFAIK, they also put on the gloves and banged away at each other - I think Ross posted some vids of them training heavy bag, footwork, etc. at one point (although I understand that there are some peeps out there doing yiquan who reverted back to the "I touch you and you go sailing through the air" silliness as well...)

Excellent !
Hey, I do standing qigong too, its good stuff.

[sanjuro_ronin]

She made you stand in horse for an hour? was that before or after she let you in the Jade Gate?
:D:D:D

Yeah, that Jade gate is what got me in trouble in the first place !!

[Frost]

without having read the wiki article, my understanding is that the whole "idea" behind yiquan was that Wang Xiangzhai was of the opinion that a) practicing forms was an artifact and a waste of time (:eek:) and b) that because of the emphasis on forms practice as opposed to live drilling, TCMA had lost its capacity for practical application (:eek::eek::eek:); and this from a man whose base system was xingyi, mind you, hardly a system known for "flowery" hands!

the foundational practice of the style is standing and Wang supposedly would have students do standing, in front of him, for 8 hours straight as a "test" of their mastery (this is based on, AFAIK, 3rd hand report, I believe); after standing practice there is some solo movement practice, but much of the style is dedicated to live partner work: close quarter bridging work that looks like a hybrid of push hands and chi sao; then they do a lot of non-contact sparring work as well;

in regards to the standing, Wang's purpose for this was to create fluidity in movement; personally, I can attest to how practicing standing worked for me in this regard; whether it makes me a better fighter, I don't know, but qualitatively my taiji movement has continued to be less disjointed over the years; I attribute this to standing because I have experimented by not practicing taiji for periods of time and focusing on standing alone, and then doing taiji and seeing the differences, as well as having it verified by my teacher watching me; just a subjective perspective, of course, I am unable to generalize this phenomenon;

the interesting thing is that when u see yiquan guys fight, it looks more like boxing / kickboxing than it does TCMA "fighting" (whatever that really may be); suggesting that, if Wang was looking for a "natural" stye of fighting, that us silly, external westerners might actually be onto something!

rumor has it that no one cared to fu(k w/Wang, and he supposedly had a running add in a Beijing newspaper inviting all comers, and despite many challengers, was undefeated; of course, I have no proof of this, so it's hard to say for certain;


what a teacher advocating sparring over forms and taking on challengers in actual fights.... never!

the sad was (as you pointed out later) some of his students did revert back to the no touch flying about crap

[lkfmdc]

:D

If he was a forum member, posting that here, someone would insist he had never learned real CMA and didn't understand how "internal" works! ;)

:D

[kfson]

:D

If he was a forum member, posting that here, someone would insist he had never learned real CMA and didn't understand how "internal" works! ;)

:D

http://www.weightwash.co.uk/Images/shock.jpg

[taai gihk yahn]

Excellent !
Hey, I do standing qigong too, its good stuff.
[insert standard HW108 comment regarding your lack of authentic TCMA experience here]


what a teacher advocating sparring over forms and taking on challengers in actual fights.... never!
the sad was (as you pointed out later) some of his students did revert back to the no touch flying about crap
it just goes to show you that even when someone is given a diamond they can still refuse it for cubic zirconium...


:D
If he was a forum member, posting that here, someone would insist he had never learned real CMA and didn't understand how "internal" works! ;)
:D
perhaps he already has Dave, perhaps he already has...;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

[insert standard HW108 comment regarding your lack of authentic TCMA experience here]

Bite me chi-boy !!

http://ggwhy.com/OG/random/bananas.jpg

[Lucas]

http://www.i-chuan.net/articles.html

Uki would like

a couple of free articles by Gregory Fong. Good reads for anyone interested. Too bad, he used to have all his articles for free...now I wish I had saved them all to my hard drive...

[sanjuro_ronin]

I went through a few clips of Yiquan on youtube and the fighting seemed god, very san shou type and while what I saw in terms of bag and pad work was very beginner like if I had A concern it would be the 70 min of standing training.
Now, when we have lots of time on our hands, like those in the yiquan academy, that's great but it is not very realistic for the everyday person.

[Scott R. Brown]

tying a giant mill to ur testicles and dragging it

Hey! Don't knock it! That is what I do for a living!!:mad:

[GeneChing]

Tree Hugging Kung Fu? READ Yiquan: Using the Mind to Move the Body (https://www.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=1693) by Lewis Alderson

http://www.kungfumagazine.com//admin/site_images/KungfuMagazine/images/ezine/5397_Yiquan-Mind-and-Body_Lead.jpg