Any Kulo/YKS practitioners? [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

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LSWCTN1

03-10-2010, 03:49 AM

LoneTiger108

03-10-2010, 05:09 AM

what are the san sik of your respective art, and in what order are they taught?

where abouts in the system are they taught?

how does the san sik of Kulo vary from than the san sik of YKS?

are there any other branches of wing chun that use san sik?

We use the san sik method of coaching at The Yum Yeurng Academy, but it's not generally something that the Lee Shing Family is known for unless you've had the privelage of learning chinese literature and curriculums, or his interpretation of Kulo methods his students teach in the UK to their closer students.

At The Academy we coach a 36 point method and tend to steer clear of the general Wing Chun curriculum until this is completed. We do an 'overview' if you like. Of course this does mean that we can have someone with us for over a year who has never learnt the SLT set, but that's the way we like it and it does tend to produce far more well-rounded Martial Artists.

I'm also very interested in the differences between YKS and Kulo teachings...

Vajramusti

03-10-2010, 05:26 AM

what are the san sik of your respective art, and in what order are they taught?

where abouts in the system are they taught?

how does the san sik of Kulo vary from than the san sik of YKS?

are there any other branches of wing chun that use san sik?
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Yes, we do. They supplement what else we do.
joy chaudhuri

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t_niehoff

03-10-2010, 05:36 AM

what are the san sik of your respective art, and in what order are they taught?

where abouts in the system are they taught?

how does the san sik of Kulo vary from than the san sik of YKS?

are there any other branches of wing chun that use san sik?

Sum Nung used twelve (Cheung Bo) san sik to teach the fundamentals of WCK. Rene's book and article excellently covers them.

The 40 point Gu Lao method has a progressive sequence of 40 points that includes the basics and beyond.

San sik are "techniques" used to teach the yau dim (important points), the techniques themselves being examples of the points in action. Sum, for example, used different san sik at different periods in his teaching to get across the same points. Various Gu Lao branches use varying numbers and type of san sik. It's the same book, just the chapters are numbered differently.

And, fwiw, the san saik/yau dim - at least how I was taught - are integrated into the method (faat), as that is the organizing principle behind our fighitng (and so our training follows that organization).

kung fu fighter

03-11-2010, 07:22 AM

arm angles are different.

t_niehoff

03-11-2010, 07:33 AM

arm angles are different.

If you are being sarcastic, then that's hilarious.

If you are being serious, then that's alarming.

LSWCTN1

03-11-2010, 08:26 AM

arm angles are different.

If you are being sarcastic, then that's hilarious.

If you are being serious, then that's alarming.

if you are being serious then that suggests a fundamental flaw.

if the same motion, hoping for the same outcome, is done by someone from two different lineages differently - then at least one of them is incorrect

or at they where at different heights to deal with you, but their static 'form' should be the same

kung fu fighter

03-11-2010, 10:20 AM

t_niehoff

03-11-2010, 11:48 AM

t_niehoff

03-11-2010, 11:57 AM

if you are being serious then that suggests a fundamental flaw.

if the same motion, hoping for the same outcome, is done by someone from two different lineages differently - then at least one of them is incorrect

or at they where at different heights to deal with you, but their static 'form' should be the same

There is a well-known story that two of Yip's senior students got into an argument over which of them was performing the tan sao in the second half of the SNT "correctly". So, student 1 went to Yip and said "I perform the tan sao with a drilling action, is that correct?" And Yip said,"Yes, you're doing it right." Student 2 went to Yip and said "I perform the tan sao with a straight, thrusting action, is that correct?" And Yip said, "Yes, you're doing it right."

LSWCTN1

03-12-2010, 01:54 AM

There is a well-known story that two of Yip's senior students got into an argument over which of them was performing the tan sao in the second half of the SNT "correctly". So, student 1 went to Yip and said "I perform the tan sao with a drilling action, is that correct?" And Yip said,"Yes, you're doing it right." Student 2 went to Yip and said "I perform the tan sao with a straight, thrusting action, is that correct?" And Yip said, "Yes, you're doing it right."

they obviously both have their place. but if they are both being used against the same attack then one is wrong.

they may both work, but you need the one that is easiest to do, most effective outcome, and leaves you in a more advantageous position.

bennyvt

03-12-2010, 02:55 AM

the point was yip asked why. Wsl said he turned the hand them did the tan to make it harder and more like reality. Tst said he did it as you learn to come to the centre straight away. Yip said you are both right for different reasons.

t_niehoff

03-12-2010, 05:17 AM

they obviously both have their place. but if they are both being used against the same attack then one is wrong.

they may both work, but you need the one that is easiest to do, most effective outcome, and leaves you in a more advantageous position.

Forms and san sik (forms are just linked san sik) are representations, not how YOU will really DO it. They don't show you how things "should" be done, but give you an approximation -- they can't by their very nature replicate genuine WCK movement. They are "memory devices", not training.

As I pointed out on another thread, anytime you practice/perform something not under reaistic conditions, you do it wrong. Like any tool (like the jab in boxing, for instance), there are many ways to perform a tan sao, and how you do it will depend on your strengths and the situation.

kung fu fighter

03-12-2010, 06:59 AM

LoneTiger108

03-13-2010, 09:21 AM

kulo wing chun grand master fung chun http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dgksv0HcUnQ

kulo san sik http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FeAxb7aqsfE

yuen kay san san sik http://mymedia.yam.com/m/539 http://mymedia.yam.com/m/539 http://mymedia.yam.com/m/120394

Looking at the clips, I find it interesting that T thinks that the san sik does not interact or have a partner-drill. I'm wondering if you feel that SLT doesn't interact or have other practises outside the structure of solo form practise?

Still, I like to see the sets demonstrated on their own. Like this one
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CvY5yV6ugs
and this one
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qlfeMH2oBg&feature=related

FWIW the 1st set on both clips IS THE SAME as the 1st interaction of the earlier clip "kulo san sik http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FeAxb7aqsfE"

Here's a set from a form that has been basically taught as an interaction. Something I call inside-outside pin sun gaan sau
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TknogplcNLA

And something my Uncle Joe Lee teaches quite openly
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Akwh3TKly9U

kung fu fighter

03-13-2010, 11:56 AM

Looking at the clips, I find it interesting that T thinks that the san sik does not interact or have a partner-drill. I'm wondering if you feel that SLT doesn't interact or have other practises outside the structure of solo form practise?

Still, I like to see the sets demonstrated on their own. Like this one
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CvY5yV6ugs
and this one
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qlfeMH2oBg&feature=related

FWIW the 1st set on both clips IS THE SAME as the 1st interaction of the earlier clip "kulo san sik http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FeAxb7aqsfE"

Here's a set from a form that has been basically taught as an interaction. Something I call inside-outside pin sun gaan sau
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TknogplcNLA

And something my Uncle Joe Lee teaches quite openly
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Akwh3TKly9U

Nice clips Spencer!

imperialtaichi

03-14-2010, 12:33 AM

what are the san sik of your respective art, and in what order are they taught?

where abouts in the system are they taught?

how does the san sik of Kulo vary from than the san sik of YKS?

are there any other branches of wing chun that use san sik?

I cannot speak for how it varies for YKS, as I do not know the YKS well enough to comment.

But in our line of KLWC, the 22 san sik's are grouped into 3 categories:
1. the "one in one out using strikes to destroy the opponent's momentum"
2. the "using both hands to follow the opponent to control his momentum"
3. the "extended power"

I think the san sik's purpose is to help clear the practitioner's "fixed-mind", which is inherent in many form/kata based martial arts. Real fighting should be rather formless.

The typical progression in KLWC is from "Structured" to "form is there, but not fixed" to the ultimate purpose of "No Form".

To be honest, the sequence of the san sik is not all that important, as long as you know the exercises and how and when to apply them.

The partner practice sequences are also very important. They are based on the 22 san sik's, and it trains habits and reactions. There will be NO KLWC without partner training, just as there will be no FSWC without sticking hands and lap sau training.

Cheers,
John

t_niehoff

03-14-2010, 05:36 AM

Looking at the clips, I find it interesting that T thinks that the san sik does not interact or have a partner-drill. I'm wondering if you feel that SLT doesn't interact or have other practises outside the structure of solo form practise?

Is a form a partner drill? No. Neither is a san sik. I never said -- nor do I think (please don't even suggest you know what I am thinking) -- you can't put san sik into partner drills. But, they are two different things. Do you understand that?

The question was about san sik, not about partner drills. What was shown on the clips were drills, not the san sik.

LoneTiger108

03-14-2010, 01:43 PM

Is a form a partner drill? No. Neither is a san sik.
Okay, as I said I do understand why you said what you said T (although I could never claim to know what you think dude!)

Given that san sik translates as loose technique I would see it as such. Loosley taught stuff, which has many possibilities. Although most Sifu settle with at least one good way to express it! How many YOU can come up with depends on your mindset.

The question was about san sik, not about partner drills. What was shown on the clips were drills, not the san sik.

Again, I understand what you mean here T, but do you understand me?

I look at the interactions as 'san sik doi lien' and some as 'san sik doi chat'. Now, do you understand what I mean??!! :D

I cannot speak for how it varies for YKS, as I do not know the YKS well enough to comment.

But in our line of KLWC, the 22 san sik's are grouped into 3 categories:
1. the "one in one out using strikes to destroy the opponent's momentum"
2. the "using both hands to follow the opponent to control his momentum"
3. the "extended power"

I think the san sik's purpose is to help clear the practitioner's "fixed-mind", which is inherent in many form/kata based martial arts. Real fighting should be rather formless.

The typical progression in KLWC is from "Structured" to "form is there, but not fixed" to the ultimate purpose of "No Form".

To be honest, the sequence of the san sik is not all that important, as long as you know the exercises and how and when to apply them.

The partner practice sequences are also very important. They are based on the 22 san sik's, and it trains habits and reactions. There will be NO KLWC without partner training, just as there will be no FSWC without sticking hands and lap sau training.

Cheers,
John

Thanks for sharing your insights John.

Probably one of the better posts from this thread IMO as at least you are putting your ideas out there. And for the most part (especially the NO KLWC without partner training) I agree 100%!

punchdrunk

03-21-2010, 03:59 PM

www.youtube.com/watch?v=hV9g6PQLpNU&feature=player_embedded

YKS version of Chueng Bo's 12 san sik, performed by Holmann Ling very generous of their school to share and their comments show a truly great and humble attitude. enjoy.

Yoshiyahu

09-26-2011, 08:07 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNu-fxHeiUI

yuen kay san san sik

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKF2lycP8zo

different yks san sik

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icfWj_vLcIA

kulo san sik

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0txTaKSRf-E

cheung bo san sik

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTmNwGyySjE

yks san sik

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_H_8l830yA

yiu choi san sik

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZesyYG2t5c

another yks san sic

LoneTiger108

09-27-2011, 04:05 AM

Some nice clips there! :) And it's nice to see Yiu Choi lineage too :D

Here's an example of my Uncle Sifu Austin Gohs student in Italy. His san sik is really cool imho

Lee Shing San Sik
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXkuc7fP3EY&feature=player_embedded#!