Kung Fu, USSD and new gym

[the art]

Hi all, newbie here.

Just this last Sat. we went to a free intro at USSD. We liked it. We then attended 2 classes and really liked that. We realize it was not kung fu but more Shaolin Kempo? Or a variation? Anyway, we were ready to join but then were hit with the fee -- $300 for the both of us!!!

So that ended that. Also, the club seemed really cool, super nice people and great instructor. But the minute we talked price it seemed the mask came off and the instructor was not so nice. We ended up leaving feeling like we avoided some kind of cult.

What I really liked about this class was that it had a good workout and was fun, so much so that I hardly noticed an hour go by.

We are in Denver. We live in N. Denver but I work downtown and my husband works in central Denver (around Colfax/Colo. Blvd.).

Some questions: Anyone tried Ho's Chinese Martial Arts? Or White Dragon? Anyone know of any other Denver central spots we could try? That won't cost an arm and a leg? Jeez, $300 for 2 is a bit much, no?

Thanks in advance - also tell me if I should be posting elsewhere.

[the art]

Wow, not one reply but 20 people looking at it. Must not be in Denver.

On another topic, is USSD some kind of cult or what?

[xcakid]

Yes you got out of franchised outfit with questionable business practice.

Here's a long thread about them which includes details on various instructors that have be charged with sexual misconducts.

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2074

Its a long read.

Oh I am not in Denver, so I can't recomend a school, but I will definitely recommend NOT going with USSD.

[the art]

hey thanks for writing! Too bad no references for me, but that's ok.

You know, the class at USSD was super cool, everyone was very welcoming, almost too welcoming. The instructor seemed great, really attentive and held a fun class.

But then once we got to ask about getting our gi's, he dropped all niceness and got pretty rude. First thing he asked before we even started talking was "how are you going to pay?" I said, well, we'd like a price first? Then he asks if we have a budget. As if that's any of his business. Next he throws out $300 for the both of us. When we scoffed he said, oh well, this isn't a gym. He was a royal jerk.

We ended up running out of there, feeling embarrassed and sad because we really liked the group of students.

Now we are stuck finding a new spot.

I think they were teaching a hodge podge of karate/martial arts.

Which is why I'm now looking for kung fu because I think it might fit my bill.

[SnowDog]

Hi and Welcome,

Looks like you dodged a bullet like xcakid said. USSD = BIGTIME MCDOJO

I have lived in Colorado most of my life so I might be able to help find a decent school.

What are you looking for exactly? Kung Fu only? or just a good School?

As for the two you mentioned.

Never heard anything good or bad about HO's

The White Dragon - I assume you mean the Pai Lum White Dragon schools, run by Sifu Galiano
I trained at one of these years back and it was a good experiance. They are more traditional in their teaching and really into conditioning so plan to be sore after class.
Also, I just visted a new location that opened down south where I live and they still seem to be the same traditional school they used to be. I'm not sure if pricing is the same at the school by you, but the instructor down here said he charges $100 mon for the 1st person and then gives a 25% discount to the other.......Hope this helps.

I'm leaving work right now, but will try and think of some other decent schools in your area and give you some more info.

[the art]

Yeah, I get what you guys mean by McDojo now. There was no way we'd succomb to that kind of monthly payment anyway, ridiculous. When we asked if we could swing $100 per month for the both of us, the instructor said, oh well that's a rec center price. I felt like saying, no idiot, rec center prices are $35 per month and that's for the both of us!!!!!

Anyway, let's move on, shall we?

We are trying Ho's tonight, kung fu. They are in N. Denver, east side. The west side is too far for us to go, so try to think east, or even east around Colo. Blvd. and Colfax. That's a kind of halfway point for me and my husband. Ho's also does tai chi, but I think that might bore me - I like more action.

We are looking for a good workout, we are both overweight. I don't mind sore at all, that's a great thing! You sleep well, mood is better, easier to fight off stress at work. I love the culture involved with the asian arts, so while I want to lose weight and tone up, I'd LOVE to learn a new art.

Yes on the White Dragon. They are on 92nd and Wash. I believe. We'll try them next week. I'm not signing up until I am satisfied that I like the class and the price is normal.

I have no clue really what actual kung fu is, so if it's traditional that's even cooler. That info re: price helps. I don't mind paying, just not paying with my limbs LOL. Meaning $300 is over the top. But $150-ish is good for the two of us.

Denver South is a big maybe for us, but if Ho's or White Dragon up north don't work, we'll keep venturing until we can find a way. Since I'm downtown we have to find a way to meetup and then get to the gym. (We are a one car couple and I use mass transit to commute downtown).

Thanks so much snowdog, I've seen some of your other posts re: USSD and Denver schools. I'm a Denver native.

[Lucas]

dont live in denver but i was born there!

if you can find a place that offers month to month thats always a bonus. contracts can give you a discount based on how long u sign for. which is pretty normal biz practice in any biz taht offers those types of set ups.

contract only....can be an iffy situation....esp if its expensive.

as far as style goes....well just find something, anything really, that you are comfortable and excited about.

as you will come to learn, the style is not as much a big deal as to whether or not that school is going to help you advance towards your goals.

i like to look at 'styles' in terms of : stand up and grappling and then a mixture. want to punch and kick and learn some take downs and throws, chinese martial art is a great fix, unless there is cross training there you likely wont see much ground work, which is fine. looking to focus on throws/takedowns and submissions try out some jiujitsu / judo / wrestling etc...

other than that, taste test as many places as you can before you make a call. UNLESS you just feel the right vibe at a place and you want to train there. then jump right in.

the great thing with starting martial arts is finding a fit for yourself, if you are into learning new things and are open minded, you cant really go wrong.

the almighty $$$dolla dolla bill$$$ will be a factor in a lot of schools. but just look around at the local market to see if things are being competative with rates....

[the art]

Hey Lucas! Yeah, we decided to try around until we find a fit. I don't mind paying, but USSD was NOT competitive at all! I expect to pay higher rates but jeez!!

Let's see, I like the kickboxing classes I used to take at the gym, but those got kind of exhausting, all that nonstop jumping around. What I liked about this last place (USSD) is that he started by a lot of stretching, then drills like pushups, situps, jumping jacks. Then punching/kicking, etc. Working with your partner, then doing punches/blocks in a group.

The hour flew by!!!!!!! But then the price was mentioned and that was a MAJOR buzz kill!!!!!!!!

[Lucas]

howdy,

you'll get a similar experience with most all kungfu schools as you did at the USSD place in terms of work out. nice stretching and warmup period, followed by drills, solo and partner, conditioning, likely form work, maybe some discussion regarding application, technique, strategy, etc. and once you get enough practice in some sparring will start to happen.

[the art]

I'm not even that gung ho on sparring, but the workout is fun and good and I know I'll lose weight this way and become more flexible. Major points there.

So I just talked to White Dragon on 92nd. He says they aren't associated with the Ft. Collins place. They are mainly tai kwan do (sp.?)

How does this compare to the stuff we did at USSD?

It seems like it's a bunch of kicking, which my husband won't be able to do a ton of because of a surgery last year.

[Lucas]

tae kwon do is a korean martial art. there are some variations, namely traditional vs olympic style.

TKD emphasises a wide variety of kicks. if kicking is an issue or something you or your husband are not really wanting to focus on i would probably not concern yourself with tae kwon do. kicking of course is not all they do, but it is a large majority of the material.

[the art]

tae kwon do is a korean martial art. there are some variations, namely traditional vs olympic style.

TKD emphasises a wide variety of kicks. if kicking is an issue or something you or your husband are not really wanting to focus on i would probably not concern yourself with tae kwon do. kicking of course is not all they do, but it is a large majority of the material.

Lucas, thought so. And um, that was not White Dragon I spoke with. It was Champion Tai Kwon Do. Not sure how I messed that up!! But my husband did talk to White Dragon and we are dropping in there this Sat. That one is kung fu. sheesh!

Thanks for that re: tai kwon do. I think we'll stay away from that. Too much kicking for husband. Now posing and squatting and punching --- no biggie!

[Lucas]

i was wondering, the white dragon sounded like kungfu...

give it a go, it sounds like fun!

[the art]

oh and White Dragon, just talked to them just now, is affiliated with the Ft. Collins one. They sound pretty reasonable. Flexible schedule, around $40 per week for a couple and then private (probably extra cost). All kung fu. Hope I like it!

[the art]

i was wondering, the white dragon sounded like kungfu...

give it a go, it sounds like fun!

Thanks a lot Lucas, you've been helpful!

[Lucas]

yep that sounds much more reasonable, and standard. private will def be extra cost. always is, but if you like the school/material, and the instructor is good, private time here and there is ALWAYS worth it. you probably wont need to concern yourself with that at the beginning though, not until you build your foundation a bit and start getting into application and more detail oriented work.

all depends on you and where you are at.

[goju]

i live about ten minutes away from a ussd school and i walk by it often as its next to a local gorcery store and i cant help but laugh everytime i see them practice

its gigantic joke if anything its more of a day care center for kids:D

[the art]

Well, as for the workout itself, it was great. Our class was at night and was all adult. I really appreciated that as the other karate places we checked out, well, they just mixed adults and kids and that look truly awful!

The way USSD does business is the really crappy part - I must say.


i live about ten minutes away from a ussd school and i walk by it often as its next to a local gorcery store and i cant help but laugh everytime i see them practice

its gigantic joke if anything its more of a day care center for kids:D

[Lucas]

Thanks a lot Lucas, you've been helpful!

hey you bet, any time. there are FAR more experienced people here. im sure they will pipe up at some point.

stay active on the forum, ignore the silly stuff and you can glean a lot of useful info.

:D

[the art]

yep that sounds much more reasonable, and standard. private will def be extra cost. always is, but if you like the school/material, and the instructor is good, private time here and there is ALWAYS worth it. you probably wont need to concern yourself with that at the beginning though, not until you build your foundation a bit and start getting into application and more detail oriented work.

all depends on you and where you are at.

I would prefer more days to work out but I suppose I better find alternatives anyway so I don't get bored. With summer coming we are good to go.

[Lucas]

oh ya, and as for taijiquan/ tai chi chuan, once you get into it, its pretty comprehensive, and very in depth. you'll even learn how to have a cardio work out while standing still!! taiji also incompases all of the basics you'll get in any other style of chinese martial art, however yang taiji can be pretty boring for people entering into the chinese martial arts....heh

[Lucas]

I would prefer more days to work out .

im with you on that one, im all for adding an extra 15-20 hours to each day lol

[the art]

oh ya, and as for taijiquan/ tai chi chuan, once you get into it, its pretty comprehensive, and very in depth. you'll even learn how to have a cardio work out while standing still!! taiji also incompases all of the basics you'll get in any other style of chinese martial art, however yang taiji can be pretty boring for people entering into the chinese martial arts....heh

Are you talking about tai chi, the yoga-type stuff? I don't know, the lack of movement... sounds boring. I have tried yoga, all kinds, and it's just not my thing. I'd rather punch. Or kick. And then have 10 min. of stretching.

[Lucas]

well there are few different variations of taiji/tai chi

the most commonly known is yang taiji, its the slow, flowing meditative looking one. chen taiji is explosive and intense.

however both contain punches, kicks, throws, and joint manipulation.

there are standing meditations that are often taught along side tai chi regimes for conditioning purposes, which if you arent accustomed to will be very boring.

look into the supposed 'internal' vs 'external' aspects of chinese martial arts, its a good place to start on that monster......hard to explain

[Lucas]

also tai chi is full range of motion. you'll work everything. you would be suprised at the physical work out you get from doing all those martial movements at the varying paces tai chi uses.

personally i compare tai chi to shaolin kungfu, its basically the same material, just formulated and transmitted in a different fashion than your more 'external' expressions of kungfu. the major emphasis on taiji is maximizing the effeciency of your body through posture, allignment and rooted coiling power to deliver strikes, and throws. it is a very defensive art

hard to explain, but you'll figure it out for yourself soon enough...:D

[the art]

I see. I'm sure the workout is fierce, in a non agressive sort of way, like yoga, but I like agressive! We start our journey tonight!

[Lucas]

I'm sure you'll have a blast! let us know what you think.

[the art]

I'm sure you'll have a blast! let us know what you think.

ok, talk to you tomorrow!

[Lucas]

its a deal, im chained to a desk mon - fri so i lurk and post here basically every day except the weekends generally.

most of our regulars havnt been posting much today, just dont let them scare you away....lol

[the art]

That's funny, I too am chained to a desk, sort of. What's your line of work? I'm in law.

[Lucas]

That's funny, I too am chained to a desk, sort of. What's your line of work? I'm in law.

dont hate me when i say im a banker.....lol

i work at a cdfi though so its not your typical institution...i dont drink too much blood, and i give most of it back.

but hey...your in law, you understand..

[the art]

Hey you aren't all that bad. :p

I'm in probate/probate litigation, the nicer side of law. So I don't hate bankers. Too much. ;)

So went to Ho's last night. Really lame. The guy wouldn't let us join the class, even though we show up dressed appropriately. He insists we sit there and watch, making the class self-conscious and us really bored. And why we are just watching I have no idea - he made it sound like they'd be doing some special ninja sword fight when it was really a conditioning class and then towards the end they practiced some self defense moves. There were a couple of people in the class who were definitely at our level - obviously had never done the moves - so I don't get why we couldn't join.

Then the grand finale -- and please tell me most dojos aren't like this -- right when the class ended they were each given duties to clean. Yes, CLEAN. We heard the instructor say, who's got the toilet? And that's when me and my husband said, noooooo.

So let me get this straight, you write them a check for approx. $200 (for 2) and then you get to clean the place?!?!

No one seemed very traditional, they called the instructor by first name and hardly even bothered to bow before entering the dojo. Not that I care that much about it, just something I noticed.

The instructor explained to us that cleaning it was a sign of respect as the school was theirs. Um, how about you take a portion of my $200 and pay a freaking MAID?

On to White Dragon tomorrow, where we actually get to join the class. Maybe I should bring my toilet bowl brush?


dont hate me when i say im a banker.....lol

i work at a cdfi though so its not your typical institution...i dont drink too much blood, and i give most of it back.

but hey...your in law, you understand..

[Lucas]

LOL!!! yep, you'll get that experience now and again. Now days most places will let you join in on the class, sometimes you'll get places that just want you to watch...not always a bad sign, but you'll usually notice that happening when its a class of advanced students you may be watching or particularly advanced/risky material, or sparring. just so they dont injure non students. but ya if there were beginners in there its silly not to let you guys jump right in with that stuff.

keep on truckin, and good luck with white dragon!

[TenTigers]

actually, in many schools the students help clean up after class. It's a matter of pride-a Mo-Kwoon/Dojo is like a family.
When I did Karate, we would all line up and push a wet towel across the wood floor.
Sensei always threatened to have us use our Gi tops-that way it would insure that we wash our uniforms! (come ta think of it..that's not a bad idea...):D

In our school-someone always grabs the vacuum cleaner, and the others put the pads away and straighten up. They aren't asked. They just all chip in and help out.
I would never ask a student to wash the toilet! That's nuts!:eek:

You are lucky to have found a school so inexpensive. Frankly, the average price for monthly tuition ranges from $120.00 to $160.00 (in NY) except perhaps for part-time schools, rec centers, or classes at a gym.
In some schools it is even more expensive.
As far as private lessons are concerned-if the classes are small enough, and the isntructor cares enough that you are getting personal attention, then privates aren't necessary unless you have something specific that you need to work on.
Besides, you get alot more out of being in a group.
There's the different size, energy of other students to train with, and group classes have a high energy level.

As far as watching a class- not everyone allows you to just come onto the floor and "join in." I wouldn't until I've first spoken with the person, felt them out a bit, then I offer a free introductory class.
Otherwise, I have no idea who I am bringing onto my floor, training with my students. What if he's mentally/emotionally disturbed? What if he's got an ego/attitude problem? It's like bringing a stranger in off the streets into your home and family.

In fact, in alot of schools in Chinatown, you weren't allowed to even watch a class, unless you first had an interview with the Sifu. He is interviewing YOU, not the other way around.

In a traditional school, the Sifu is not selling a service, and the student is not a consumer.
The Sifu is sharing his lifelong commitment to his cherished art, his years of training, his experience, with you-the student.
It is considered a gift to be valued, not a service.

This is why we say, "Dohr-Che, Sifu" after class.
("dohr-che" is what you say when you are given something such as a gift.
"M-Goi" is what you say to the waiter when he brings you your water.)

yeah...I know.
I'm a freakin' dinosaur....

[the art]

LOL!!! yep, you'll get that experience now and again. Now days most places will let you join in on the class, sometimes you'll get places that just want you to watch...not always a bad sign, but you'll usually notice that happening when its a class of advanced students you may be watching or particularly advanced/risky material, or sparring. just so they dont injure non students. but ya if there were beginners in there its silly not to let you guys jump right in with that stuff.

keep on truckin, and good luck with white dragon!

I thought it was silly too. I mean, ya, if they are doing really advanced training I can see not wanting us to join, but it was basic kicking, punching and then basic self defense moves (no sparring or anything). It made me feel like they were being cheap.

We also found a kickboxing gym, might work for what we want. I really liked the structure of the USSD class.

[the art]

hi TenTigers!

Ok, here's the thing with family and pride, threatening, discipline, etc. I understand a lot of that is the culture and basis of martial arts. But this is not Asia, this is the USA, where we pay YOU. Meaning, to me, if I'm writing you a check for a large sum for you to teach me how to do self-defense moves and give me a workout, you do just that. I do not pay you $200 per month to clean your toilet. Very irritating to me. Even dusting, vacuuming. Um, helloooo? I'm paying $200!!!!! I have other crap to do like cleaning in my own home. Perhaps I should not pay my maid to clean my home with the idea that she should have pride in my home. Just doesn't make sense to me. I get the ideology, really I do. But when you are the one dishing out the cash...

Your quotes are from NY but our economy is much different here. We have a much lower cost of living. NY to us is VERY expensive. So speaking competitively, we have been seeing costs of around $160 for the both of us, not each. Which would mean that USSD is wayyyy overpriced, charging nearly double.

Thanks for that information and background about sifus and such. I guess it's just hard to enforce that attitude in a primarily consumer based society.

I get what you are saying about letting us join in. But we had talked to him over the phone, then showed up. We aren't fatties, we are a little overweight, but could certainly have joined in doing basic kicks and punches. No ninjas there last night. In fact, I've been to far worse boot camps in my rec center.

Even if we are nutsos, again, we have the competition angle. If every other dojo in town will allow one or two or even 2 weeks of free trial, then you appear weird if you are the only one in a 10 mile radius making us sit there and watch. Maybe he's trying to keep it traditional, but see my notes about how the students were certainly not traditional.

Anyway, dinosaur, hahaha, thanks again!!


actually, in many schools the students help clean up after class. It's a matter of pride-a Mo-Kwoon/Dojo is like a family.
When I did Karate, we would all line up and push a wet towel across the wood floor.
Sensei always threatened to have us use our Gi tops-that way it would insure that we wash our uniforms! (come ta think of it..that's not a bad idea...):D

In our school-someone always grabs the vacuum cleaner, and the others put the pads away and straighten up. They aren't asked. They just all chip in and help out.
I would never ask a student to wash the toilet! That's nuts!:eek:

You are lucky to have found a school so inexpensive. Frankly, the average price for monthly tuition ranges from $120.00 to $160.00 (in NY) except perhaps for part-time schools, rec centers, or classes at a gym.
In some schools it is even more expensive.
As far as private lessons are concerned-if the classes are small enough, and the isntructor cares enough that you are getting personal attention, then privates aren't necessary unless you have something specific that you need to work on.
Besides, you get alot more out of being in a group.
There's the different size, energy of other students to train with, and group classes have a high energy level.

As far as watching a class- not everyone allows you to just come onto the floor and "join in." I wouldn't until I've first spoken with the person, felt them out a bit, then I offer a free introductory class.
Otherwise, I have no idea who I am bringing onto my floor, training with my students. What if he's mentally/emotionally disturbed? What if he's got an ego/attitude problem? It's like bringing a stranger in off the streets into your home and family.

In fact, in alot of schools in Chinatown, you weren't allowed to even watch a class, unless you first had an interview with the Sifu. He is interviewing YOU, not the other way around.

In a traditional school, the Sifu is not selling a service, and the student is not a consumer.
The Sifu is sharing his lifelong commitment to his cherished art, his years of training, his experience, with you-the student.
It is considered a gift to be valued, not a service.

This is why we say, "Dohr-Che, Sifu" after class.
("dohr-che" is what you say when you are given something such as a gift.
"M-Goi" is what you say to the waiter when he brings you your water.)

yeah...I know.
I'm a freakin' dinosaur....

[TenTigers]

. Maybe he's trying to keep it traditional,
McDojo trying to keep it traditional? Now that's an oxymoron!:D
Good luck with the new class, and all things aside, you did well to run, not walk out of there.

[Skip J.]

Thanks for that information and background about sifus and such. I guess it's just hard to enforce that attitude in a primarily consumer based society.
Ahhhh, welll... see.... I take as well as instruct in a local rec center... it's only $7.00 per class. The rec center does the cleaning, we just set out chairs. We do taiji (tai chi), so most of the students are ladies. I have been married a bit over 40 years so I understand the "consumer based" process as good as any male I know of. The trouble is, 50% of all students drop out after a month or two or three.... and then guess what? The rest are like family.

By the way, the instructor gets very little of your cash direct to him to take home; and most instructors of beginners are assistant instructors who get none of the cash. I'm not trying to be difficult, I'm just sayin' how it is if you're in it for a lifetime..........

[tattooedmonk]

but have you tried the Chinese Shaolin Center , Denver???

[SnowDog]

Hey you aren't all that bad. :p

I'm in probate/probate litigation, the nicer side of law. So I don't hate bankers. Too much. ;)

So went to Ho's last night. Really lame. The guy wouldn't let us join the class, even though we show up dressed appropriately. He insists we sit there and watch, making the class self-conscious and us really bored. And why we are just watching I have no idea - he made it sound like they'd be doing some special ninja sword fight when it was really a conditioning class and then towards the end they practiced some self defense moves. There were a couple of people in the class who were definitely at our level - obviously had never done the moves - so I don't get why we couldn't join.

Then the grand finale -- and please tell me most dojos aren't like this -- right when the class ended they were each given duties to clean. Yes, CLEAN. We heard the instructor say, who's got the toilet? And that's when me and my husband said, noooooo.

So let me get this straight, you write them a check for approx. $200 (for 2) and then you get to clean the place?!?!

No one seemed very traditional, they called the instructor by first name and hardly even bothered to bow before entering the dojo. Not that I care that much about it, just something I noticed.

The instructor explained to us that cleaning it was a sign of respect as the school was theirs. Um, how about you take a portion of my $200 and pay a freaking MAID?

On to White Dragon tomorrow, where we actually get to join the class. Maybe I should bring my toilet bowl brush?



Good luck with White Dragon,
If they are the same that they used to be when I went it should be a lot different than what you just experienced. (And watching classes at the new one by my house it looked the same as it was before)

They were a lot more formal than what you described, have to salute (bow) the Sifu when entering/ exiting the Kwoon, then salute the training area before you enter and leave. The instructors where called Sifu -Last name.
And classes were about 1 1/2 - 2hrs hrs with 45min of stretching and conditioning and 45min - 1hr of Drills, Pads, technique and form work.

Also you mentioned your husband had surgery, the lower ranking levels at White Dragon really stressed a lot of deep stance work so it might be a little difficult for him.........I have a bad knee and had a lot of issues and trouble with some of the stance work.

Hopefully it's a better experience for you.

[SnowDog]

If White Dragon doesn' t work out I don't know if I would lean towards the Shao-Lin Center. Over the years it has become really watered down and I'm not impressed by most of the students that they are producing lately. It is cheap and they have some fun material, but the quality seems to have diminished big time.

I really am not too familiar with the North East Part of the city, the only other school I really know of up there is Kun Lun Pai http://www.kunlunpai.com/
They teach KunTao Silat instead of traditional Chinese Kung Fu, but have a good rep and produce good students.

The only other good "Kung Fu" schools I know about more central area are near downtown I-25 and Broadway area, I have no personal experience with either school, but have met people who went there and liked them.

One is a Wing Chun school -
http://www.denverwingchun.com/index.html

I've heard good things about Mr. Rivera who runs it, and He only charges $67 a month per person.

And the other is a Hsing I / Tai Chi school -
http://www.denverchikung.com/index.html

I've heard really good things about this school as well


Another option might be the Progressive Martial Arts schools -
http://www.pmadenver.com/
While they are not traditional Kung Fu, (actually not very traditional at all) I know a few people who train at a their schools and really enjoy them. They teach Chinese Kempo, Kickboxing and BJJ, and at the higher levels add some KunTao classes. And I believe they charge around $80 a person.

Hope all this was helpful...... And good luck with your training

[the art]

Ten: You are funny! Well, traditional in that they bowed before/after leaving the dojo, at Ho's I think some could barely form a fist let alone actually bow. At USSD, they were all in gi's, at Ho's they were in sweats and crappy t-shirts. At Ho's they called the instructor "hey" and "steve", at USSD is was "sensei". Honestly Ho's did not seem to be holding onto much tradition other than the toilet cleaning at the end. And the class wasn't even really over. It was the last ten min. of class they spent cleaning.


McDojo trying to keep it traditional? Now that's an oxymoron!:D
Good luck with the new class, and all things aside, you did well to run, not walk out of there.

[the art]

Skip: Yeah, I'm sure a lot drop out after a month or two. Heck, that might be us. I mean you like it or so you think then you think you want to try elsewhere. Again, just what we are based on: consumerism. Here in the US and this doesn't just apply to women, we have the belief that we pay for something, we get something. Not we pay big money and then provide a service.

If we were paying $7 then I could see maybe sweeping or bringing out/taking away chairs. But not paying $300 and then cleaning a toilet. That's just wrong. I'm not a maid. I'm a person, who works hard for my money as does this dojo owner. I am paying for a service, and I suggest he does the same.

I'm sure he doesn't exactly roll in the money, but that's a personal problem on his end. And honestly he sure is reaping some benefit at $200 a pop and then the place gets cleaned every night.

And if you come out with this "family" that truly makes up your dojo, well then, IMHO, you are running a good business.


Ahhhh, welll... see.... I take as well as instruct in a local rec center... it's only $7.00 per class. The rec center does the cleaning, we just set out chairs. We do taiji (tai chi), so most of the students are ladies. I have been married a bit over 40 years so I understand the "consumer based" process as good as any male I know of. The trouble is, 50% of all students drop out after a month or two or three.... and then guess what? The rest are like family.

By the way, the instructor gets very little of your cash direct to him to take home; and most instructors of beginners are assistant instructors who get none of the cash. I'm not trying to be difficult, I'm just sayin' how it is if you're in it for a lifetime..........

[the art]

but have you tried the Chinese Shaolin Center , Denver???

ERRRR, I totally wish!!!!! But they are in NW Denver, we live in NE Denver and work in downtown and SE Denver. I heard they are super good!!! Just too far for us. :(

[the art]

Snowdog: Thanks!!!!!!

I think we'll be ok with the formality. It's just a learning process for us. But we want to learn so we shoudl do alright.

I think White Dragon's classes are 1 hr. but I'm not really sure. We'll find out a lot more tomorrow.

My husband's surgery was over a year ago, but sometimes he has issues with it. I think it's mainly because he's out of shape and if your muscles can't support you well you tend to have problems. I know he really wants to get in shape as do I, so let's hope we can get through all that and come out better people.



Good luck with White Dragon,
If they are the same that they used to be when I went it should be a lot different than what you just experienced. (And watching classes at the new one by my house it looked the same as it was before)

They were a lot more formal than what you described, have to salute (bow) the Sifu when entering/ exiting the Kwoon, then salute the training area before you enter and leave. The instructors where called Sifu -Last name.
And classes were about 1 1/2 - 2hrs hrs with 45min of stretching and conditioning and 45min - 1hr of Drills, Pads, technique and form work.

Also you mentioned your husband had surgery, the lower ranking levels at White Dragon really stressed a lot of deep stance work so it might be a little difficult for him.........I have a bad knee and had a lot of issues and trouble with some of the stance work.

Hopefully it's a better experience for you.

[the art]

There are soooo many out there!

Shao-Lin Center won't work for us due to location mainly and work hours. Kun Lun is the same thing, too far west.

We've looked at Wing Chun online, might work really well as a halfway point for both me and husband.

Sin Lung --- might work too.

Progressive looks super cool! But location is not good.

One thing I should mention: I'm not absolutely sure if kung fu is exactly for us anyway. Could be that just a regular karate class will work. A lot of it will be the instructor, cost, location, etc. What I really liked about USSD is how well the guy ran the class, very organized and fun -- not once did I want to look at the clock, something I've done many times in the gym. The area was very clean.

Thanks for these pointers, we will keep on trying until we find something. There's gotta be something out there for us!!


If White Dragon doesn' t work out I don't know if I would lean towards the Shao-Lin Center. Over the years it has become really watered down and I'm not impressed by most of the students that they are producing lately. It is cheap and they have some fun material, but the quality seems to have diminished big time.

I really am not too familiar with the North East Part of the city, the only other school I really know of up there is Kun Lun Pai http://www.kunlunpai.com/
They teach KunTao Silat instead of traditional Chinese Kung Fu, but have a good rep and produce good students.

The only other good "Kung Fu" schools I know about more central area are near downtown I-25 and Broadway area, I have no personal experience with either school, but have met people who went there and liked them.

One is a Wing Chun school -
http://www.denverwingchun.com/index.html

I've heard good things about Mr. Rivera who runs it, and He only charges $67 a month per person.

And the other is a Hsing I / Tai Chi school -
http://www.denverchikung.com/index.html

I've heard really good things about this school as well


Another option might be the Progressive Martial Arts schools -
http://www.pmadenver.com/
While they are not traditional Kung Fu, (actually not very traditional at all) I know a few people who train at a their schools and really enjoy them. They teach Chinese Kempo, Kickboxing and BJJ, and at the higher levels add some KunTao classes. And I believe they charge around $80 a person.

Hope all this was helpful...... And good luck with your training

[goju]

ERRRR, I totally wish!!!!! But they are in NW Denver, we live in NE Denver and work in downtown and SE Denver. I heard they are super good!!! Just too far for us. :(

ive been there trust me they are super crap:D

http://www.vidoemo.com/yvideo.php?i=UEdxaWxGcWuRpSlIyUWM&glove-sparring-chinese-shaolin-center-denver-part-1

http://www.vidoemo.com/yvideo.php?i=MmJzYzlacWuRpTUFUZE0&glove-sparring-chinese-shaolin-center-denver-part-2

[the art]

ive been there trust me they are super crap:D

http://www.vidoemo.com/yvideo.php?i=UEdxaWxGcWuRpSlIyUWM&glove-sparring-chinese-shaolin-center-denver-part-1

http://www.vidoemo.com/yvideo.php?i=MmJzYzlacWuRpTUFUZE0&glove-sparring-chinese-shaolin-center-denver-part-2

LOL goju! That video had me cracking up!!!!

So everyone, I wanted to say thanks for all the helpful responses. A wealth of info here. Also, I don't want you to think I'm ignorant of the practices re: dojos and kwoons and cleaning and family and all.

[SnowDog]

ive been there trust me they are super crap:D

http://www.vidoemo.com/yvideo.php?i=UEdxaWxGcWuRpSlIyUWM&glove-sparring-chinese-shaolin-center-denver-part-1

http://www.vidoemo.com/yvideo.php?i=MmJzYzlacWuRpTUFUZE0&glove-sparring-chinese-shaolin-center-denver-part-2



DUDE!!!!! OMG!! What was the point of the head gear........It's not like anyone punched at anyone's head. I swear that had less contact than my daughters TKD class when she was 7.

LOL!!! Like I said......the instruction is WAY watered down.

[goju]

DUDE!!!!! OMG!! What was the point of the head gear........It's not like anyone punched at anyone's head. I swear that had less contact than my daughters TKD class when she was 7.

LOL!!! Like I said......the instruction is WAY watered down.

i have no idea LOL i was there about six or seven years ago and we didnt wear any head gear or gloves but they complained because me and a boxer there were going to "rough" in sparring even though we werent all all so maybe they added the protection as a result of us or maybe their technique is too deadly to use in hard contact :D

it was watered down while i was there and it appears its gotten even worse years later:eek:

[Skip J.]

Skip: Yeah, I'm sure a lot drop out after a month or two. Heck, that might be us. I mean you like it or so you think then you think you want to try elsewhere. Again, just what we are based on: consumerism. Here in the US and this doesn't just apply to women, we have the belief that we pay for something, we get something. Not we pay big money and then provide a service.

If we were paying $7 then I could see maybe sweeping or bringing out/taking away chairs. But not paying $300 and then cleaning a toilet. That's just wrong. I'm not a maid. I'm a person, who works hard for my money as does this dojo owner. I am paying for a service, and I suggest he does the same.

I'm sure he doesn't exactly roll in the money, but that's a personal problem on his end. And honestly he sure is reaping some benefit at $200 a pop and then the place gets cleaned every night.

And if you come out with this "family" that truly makes up your dojo, well then, IMHO, you are running a good business.

Well personally, I'm cheap, real cheap. I would love to take at a local studio a few blocks from my house for $70.00 (one nite a week) or $80.00 (two nites a week) per month. I took a 4 week workshop there and love the instructor. But it's just not in the budget.

It's been our local rec center for me and I'm settled into it now. By the time I pay competition fees and workshop fees, it's over a thousand $ a year total... year after year after year...

That is the greatest "luxury" item I purchase - I used to fish for 30 years and gave it up for cma (Chinese Martial Arts).

And no, consumerism is not a male or female thing. On the other hand, all that I know of the consumer purchase "process" I learned from my wife over decades.

[bawang]

real masters teach for free
takes big balls

[cerebus]

DUDE!!!!! OMG!! What was the point of the head gear........It's not like anyone punched at anyone's head. I swear that had less contact than my daughters TKD class when she was 7.

Come on now. It's obvious this is a "special needs"/ mentally handicapped class. You've seen these kids before getting on and off the short bus. Hence the helmets (and the way they were moving too, for that matter)...

[taai gihk yahn]

real masters teach for free
takes big balls

Now now, don't go scaring the nice people
in fly-over country...

[Yum Cha]

There are soooo many out there!

Shao-Lin Center won't work for us due to location mainly and work hours. Kun Lun is the same thing, too far west.

We've looked at Wing Chun online, might work really well as a halfway point for both me and husband.

Sin Lung --- might work too.

Progressive looks super cool! But location is not good.

One thing I should mention: I'm not absolutely sure if kung fu is exactly for us anyway. Could be that just a regular karate class will work. A lot of it will be the instructor, cost, location, etc. What I really liked about USSD is how well the guy ran the class, very organized and fun -- not once did I want to look at the clock, something I've done many times in the gym. The area was very clean.

Thanks for these pointers, we will keep on trying until we find something. There's gotta be something out there for us!!

Have you checked out your local strip mall? Sounds like Tae Kwan Do would fit your requirements. There are heaps of those places around, lots to compare and choose from.

[goju]

Come on now. It's obvious this is a "special needs"/ mentally handicapped class. You've seen these kids before getting on and off the short bus. Hence the helmets (and the way they were moving too, for that matter)...

LMAO!!!!!!:D

god that was hilarious

[Drake]

real masters teach for free
takes big balls

Free doesn't keep the lights on, water running, or food on the table.

[the art]

oh you guys are funny!

To Yum Cha: The strip mall karate places are loaded with children. Not that I hate 'em, just not my thing. We don't have kids and really want to learn in an adult setting. The cheaper places like you mentioned tend to throw adults and kids in the same class, leading to total chaos.

But good news all! We joined White Dragon. And to Snowdog, I now feel the pain!!!! Our first class was on Sat. and that was 1.5 hours.

They charge a reasonable monthly fee, half of what USSD wanted, and if you pay up front they knock off one month -- for a 6 mo. contract. The class was led by a guy who's been doing this since he was a kid. It was orderly, and we learned some basic kung fu animal poses. I really really liked it!!

We are signed up for twice a week with the option of a third time a week.

Thanks everyone for your responses and advice.

[the art]

I get you on the cheap part!

If our rec center did this we'd definitely check it out, but all they offer is a kids and adult (together) judo class. I wouldn't pay $70 a week for one night, heck I wouldn't pay $70 week for 5 nights -- that's just too much money for us. But we got a deal (see my post above) that's around $40 per week for the 2 of us.

We've struggled for so long to find a workout program we both enjoy -- he hates the gym and I wanted dance. I couldn't find any dance that wasn't for 3 yr. old ballerinas, and this one really fits us. So I suppose a big part of the money is an "investment" to our relationship with big payoffs like us spending healthy time together and losing some fat!

So yeah, it's a luxury but also something that is an investment, one that pays you back!

As to your last para., LOL!!!!!!!!!! I'm just saying that in the western world, we are used to paying for a service, and we view gyms, dojos, kwoons, and karate classes, judo classes, etc. as the service we are paying for. We don't pay to clean a toilet, in otherwords.


Well personally, I'm cheap, real cheap. I would love to take at a local studio a few blocks from my house for $70.00 (one nite a week) or $80.00 (two nites a week) per month. I took a 4 week workshop there and love the instructor. But it's just not in the budget.

It's been our local rec center for me and I'm settled into it now. By the time I pay competition fees and workshop fees, it's over a thousand $ a year total... year after year after year...

That is the greatest "luxury" item I purchase - I used to fish for 30 years and gave it up for cma (Chinese Martial Arts).

And no, consumerism is not a male or female thing. On the other hand, all that I know of the consumer purchase "process" I learned from my wife over decades.

[tattooedmonk]

i have no idea LOL i was there about six or seven years ago and we didnt wear any head gear or gloves but they complained because me and a boxer there were going to "rough" in sparring even though we werent all all so maybe they added the protection as a result of us or maybe their technique is too deadly to use in hard contact :D

it was watered down while i was there and it appears its gotten even worse years later:eek: Actually they have had black belts wearing helmets in glove sparring for longer than that ....... You never got that far, so you wouldnt know.... Helmets were implimented back in the 90's after a few people got concussions from hitting their heads on the ground....so much for learning how to fall properly.

Snow Dog, send me a PM....... I am curious as to who you are..... you are right it has been soooo watered down .

In all fairness, this set of videos is less than 2min of sparring . When they begin sparring class they always start out by playing tag or light/ slow sparring.

[SnowDog]

oh you guys are funny!

To Yum Cha: The strip mall karate places are loaded with children. Not that I hate 'em, just not my thing. We don't have kids and really want to learn in an adult setting. The cheaper places like you mentioned tend to throw adults and kids in the same class, leading to total chaos.

But good news all! We joined White Dragon. And to Snowdog, I now feel the pain!!!! Our first class was on Sat. and that was 1.5 hours.

They charge a reasonable monthly fee, half of what USSD wanted, and if you pay up front they knock off one month -- for a 6 mo. contract. The class was led by a guy who's been doing this since he was a kid. It was orderly, and we learned some basic kung fu animal poses. I really really liked it!!

We are signed up for twice a week with the option of a third time a week.

Thanks everyone for your responses and advice.

Glad to hear you liked it.

Like I said I really enjoyed my time I was there, but stuff happens and you just can't continue sometimes.

I told you they are REALY into conditioning. :) That's one thing I have to say is I never saw a higher ranking student that was out of shape......And to me that's a good sign

[SnowDog]

Actually they have had black belts wearing helmets in glove sparring for longer than that ....... You never got that far, so you wouldnt know.... Helmets were implimented back in the 90's after a few people got concussions from hitting their heads on the ground....so much for learning how to fall properly.

Snow Dog, send me a PM....... I am curious as to who you are..... you are right it has been soooo watered down .

In all fairness, this set of videos is less than 2min of sparring . When they begin sparring class they always start out by playing tag or light/ slow sparring.


The headgear must have came in right after I left, and I must say I hope that was just screwing around, because that was pretty pathetic. Much different than 20yrs ago.

I have to go right now, but I'll try and PM you in the next couple days.

[goju]

Actually they have had black belts wearing helmets in glove sparring for longer than that ....... You never got that far, so you wouldnt know.... Helmets were implimented back in the 90's after a few people got concussions from hitting their heads on the ground....so much for learning how to fall properly.


lol lets see i was actually at that school and you werent so who do you think would know better? you didnt even seem to realize they frequently let the black belts spar with the lower belts during class so as far as your expert opinion goes....... XD

unless of course you used your secret SD chi power to astral prokect into the classroom to watch:D


there were never anyone wearing helmets or gloves while i was there white belts or black belts:p

[Skip J.]

I get you on the cheap part!

If our rec center did this we'd definitely check it out, but all they offer is a kids and adult (together) judo class. I wouldn't pay $70 a week for one night, heck I wouldn't pay $70 week for 5 nights -- that's just too much money for us. But we got a deal (see my post above) that's around $40 per week for the 2 of us.

We've struggled for so long to find a workout program we both enjoy -- he hates the gym and I wanted dance. I couldn't find any dance that wasn't for 3 yr. old ballerinas, and this one really fits us. So I suppose a big part of the money is an "investment" to our relationship with big payoffs like us spending healthy time together and losing some fat!

So yeah, it's a luxury but also something that is an investment, one that pays you back!

As to your last para., LOL!!!!!!!!!! I'm just saying that in the western world, we are used to paying for a service, and we view gyms, dojos, kwoons, and karate classes, judo classes, etc. as the service we are paying for. We don't pay to clean a toilet, in otherwords.
Ummm no that was/is $70.00 per month for one nite per week and $80.00 per month for two nites per week. I guess I was confusing about that.... sorry!!! Anybody who charged $70 per week would get run out of town on a rail...

Any way, congrats on your deal, well done!

It's ironic you should say that..... in my class the young couple is in their early 40's and the rest of us are older, much older. We get kiddoes in their 30's sometimes, but we're too sedate for them and they don't stick. Down the hall from us on the same nite in a bigggg room they have tae kwan do. Kids are in the first class and adults are in the second class. Down the hall from them in a medium size room is a Vietnamese kung fu class... so we fill the place up with martial arts on Wednesday nites...

My wife and I do 2 miles of powerwalking before sunup and 6 miles on Saturday down at the local park/zoo/duck pond. We both get a chance to work our adrenaline out before starting the day, and for us that is important. For me, I walk in taiji (T'ai Chi) posture, so when I go to class I have been doing workouts all week.

You're gonna get tons of advice here, all conflicting!!!! So to say my 2 cents worth up front, if ya'll go walking together, get the book Chi Walking. If you go running, get the book Chi Running. You're gonna need that balanced upright posture in kung fu too....

I hate the gym myself..... and my wife does yoga... so I need something to catch up to her at my advanced age. I got hooked on running back in the '80's and it just took up too much time.... when I eventually slowed down, the weight piled on....

[tattooedmonk]

lol lets see i was actually at that school and you werent so who do you think would know better? you didnt even seem to realize they frequently let the black belts spar with the lower belts during class so as far as your expert opinion goes....... XD

unless of course you used your secret SD chi power to astral prokect into the classroom to watch:D


there were never anyone wearing helmets or gloves while i was there white belts or black belts:p What does his mean??? I realize that BB spar with lower belts, so???I belonged to this school/ organization for 15 + years , how long were you there?? Back somewhere in the mid 90s they made it MANDITORY in BB Glove sparring that you HAD to wear headgear at all the CSCs run by the Soards, were you a black belt?? Did you do BB Glove Sparring?? How long were you there????:rolleyes:

[the art]

I told you they are REALY into conditioning. :) That's one thing I have to say is I never saw a higher ranking student that was out of shape......And to me that's a good sign

No kidding!!!! But that's what I wanted -- to get back in shape.

I visited another site, I won't mention the name, claimed to teach martial arts and kung fu --- the sihu was ginormous, like she'd been eating wayyy too many cheeseburgers. It's hard for me to train under someone like that.

So yes, thanks for the advice, I'm really happy with this place.

[tattooedmonk]

The headgear must have came in right after I left, and I must say I hope that was just screwing around, because that was pretty pathetic. Much different than 20yrs ago.

I have to go right now, but I'll try and PM you in the next couple days.Most likely........For the most part it was screwing around ...and pathetic. I remember back in the day....well you know what I mean, I heard stories for years about how bad @$$ the students were back east and how much conditioning they did and all of that, I remember when the CSCs run by the Soards were somewhat like that.....now its all about how many forms you can learn:eek::rolleyes:

[the art]

Sorry, I thought you typed $70 per week. Someone else on here mentioned NY prices and thought ours were cheap, so I thought you might be coming from that perspective. $70 per month is awesome!!!!!! But I'd want more than 2 times per week - I'm trying to lose weight.

I'm talking 2-5 year olds running around like mad.

Now that I have tried 5 gyms/dojos/kwoons, I can honestly say, I don't know what the heck some of them were doing, but it WAS NOT kung fu or anything like it. I did see at the last kwoon, before this one, the lady owner brought her own kids in and was teaching them, but the rest of the adult class was just doing basic warmups, running in place, kicking, nothing special at all, nothing that even resembled martial arts. That's the place that wouldn't give us even one night free trial, just made us sit there and watch. What a joke, they wanted $200 per month for 2 times per week. And there, lucky you, got to clean their toilet!!!! Wow, what an honor.

I'll check out that book. Because on nights we aren't working out, I do plan on walking/biking. Summer is here and days are longer so I'm happy about that. I've never been much of a runner, but walking far is something I LOVE. Gyms are great for me, if I ever get the energy to actually walk inside. LOL. That's why I'm hoping this will be a better deal. I can't just skip out, my husband is waiting for me!

I hear ya on the advice. So far it's been just great. A wide variety of perspectives. But also confirmed my thoughts on USSD.

Now I'm stuck on type of shoe to get, because my running shoe is too heavy/bulky. The sihu said that the kung fu shoes are no good, not the traditional cloth kind, but the more modern tennis shoe type? They look good to me though. My husband just got some New Balance shoes, black and very light. I'm thinking of getting a pair of those.


Ummm no that was/is $70.00 per month for one nite per week and $80.00 per month for two nites per week. I guess I was confusing about that.... sorry!!! Anybody who charged $70 per week would get run out of town on a rail...

Any way, congrats on your deal, well done!

It's ironic you should say that..... in my class the young couple is in their early 40's and the rest of us are older, much older. We get kiddoes in their 30's sometimes, but we're too sedate for them and they don't stick. Down the hall from us on the same nite in a bigggg room they have tae kwan do. Kids are in the first class and adults are in the second class. Down the hall from them in a medium size room is a Vietnamese kung fu class... so we fill the place up with martial arts on Wednesday nites...

My wife and I do 2 miles of powerwalking before sunup and 6 miles on Saturday down at the local park/zoo/duck pond. We both get a chance to work our adrenaline out before starting the day, and for us that is important. For me, I walk in taiji (T'ai Chi) posture, so when I go to class I have been doing workouts all week.

You're gonna get tons of advice here, all conflicting!!!! So to say my 2 cents worth up front, if ya'll go walking together, get the book Chi Walking. If you go running, get the book Chi Running. You're gonna need that balanced upright posture in kung fu too....

I hate the gym myself..... and my wife does yoga... so I need something to catch up to her at my advanced age. I got hooked on running back in the '80's and it just took up too much time.... when I eventually slowed down, the weight piled on....

[tattooedmonk]

No kidding!!!! But that's what I wanted -- to get back in shape.

I visited another site, I won't mention the name, claimed to teach martial arts and kung fu --- the sihu was ginormous, like she'd been eating wayyy too many cheeseburgers. It's hard for me to train under someone like that.

So yes, thanks for the advice, I'm really happy with this place.Glad you found someplace you like, goodluck!!!:D

[tattooedmonk]

try converse low or high tops or vans... or something similar :D

[Lucas]

if im not using martial art specific shoes, i find in door soccer shoes are pretty similar, but as an added bonus on the street they have toe and heel re-inforcement for impact.....:D

[the art]

Hey guys, what about Discipline shoes? I really need arch support. I used to have high arches that fell -- apparently comes with age :mad:

...so now I basically have flat feet that causes quite a bit of pain with no arch support. So vans and such are out - although I know from research that the flat shoes are good in training.

A place called karatedepot.com is selling a lot of diff. types.

Here's one shoe I'm looking at:

http://www.karatedepot.com/cl-sh-27.html

[Skip J.]

I'll check out that book. Because on nights we aren't working out, I do plan on walking/biking. Summer is here and days are longer so I'm happy about that. I've never been much of a runner, but walking far is something I LOVE. Gyms are great for me, if I ever get the energy to actually walk inside. LOL. That's why I'm hoping this will be a better deal. I can't just skip out, my husband is waiting for me!

I hear ya on the advice. So far it's been just great. A wide variety of perspectives. But also confirmed my thoughts on USSD.

Now I'm stuck on type of shoe to get, because my running shoe is too heavy/bulky. The sihu said that the kung fu shoes are no good, not the traditional cloth kind, but the more modern tennis shoe type? They look good to me though. My husband just got some New Balance shoes, black and very light. I'm thinking of getting a pair of those.
The author's name is Danny Dreyer or something like that very close. What you will like is that it is he and his wife walking together... and the pictures of the correct posture is of his wife, Kathleen I think. So you have no problem "interpreting" the photo about/of how the hips are tucked under and the chin is back to straighten the spine and neck. Then he shows photos and sketches of how to step off the back foot with balance and strength.... A picture is worth a thousand words! And I have found letting my students take it home for a week or two greatly helps their posture.

And you said....

"...so now I basically have flat feet that causes quite a bit of pain with no arch support. So vans and such are out - although I know from research that the flat shoes are good in training."



Well, I don't know about ladies styles.. but my ma (martial arts) shoes are Vans. I wear them because they have the arch support I need, which is not available in most flat sole shoes. Do get some good, well-made brand of flat sole shoe tho, if you don't get a "regular" ma shoe. The reason I don't wear my ma shoes is because they're too narrow for my fat foot, and I had to order a 1/2 size larger to get'em on - so they're looonnngggg.

[tattooedmonk]

Hey guys, what about Discipline shoes? I really need arch support. I used to have high arches that fell -- apparently comes with age :mad:

...so now I basically have flat feet that causes quite a bit of pain with no arch support. So vans and such are out - although I know from research that the flat shoes are good in training.

A place called karatedepot.com is selling a lot of diff. types.

Here's one shoe I'm looking at:

http://www.karatedepot.com/cl-sh-27.htmltry some arch support insoles or asics wrestling shoes. your choice from Karate depot should be a good match

[the art]

thanks guys!

What about puma's? It's hard finding flat soled shoes!

http://www.zappos.com/puma-voltaic-ii-wns-black-fuchsia-purple-white

http://www.zappos.com/puma-etoile-wns-black-white

http://www.zappos.com/puma-replicat-ii-us-wns-black-puma-silver-white

[the art]

Thanks for the author's name. As to shoes, see my post above. By arch support, I really mean support. When you have no arch, it becomes very painful to just walk or stand.


The author's name is Danny Dreyer or something like that very close. What you will like is that it is he and his wife walking together... and the pictures of the correct posture is of his wife, Kathleen I think. So you have no problem "interpreting" the photo about/of how the hips are tucked under and the chin is back to straighten the spine and neck. Then he shows photos and sketches of how to step off the back foot with balance and strength.... A picture is worth a thousand words! And I have found letting my students take it home for a week or two greatly helps their posture.

And you said....

"...so now I basically have flat feet that causes quite a bit of pain with no arch support. So vans and such are out - although I know from research that the flat shoes are good in training."



Well, I don't know about ladies styles.. but my ma (martial arts) shoes are Vans. I wear them because they have the arch support I need, which is not available in most flat sole shoes. Do get some good, well-made brand of flat sole shoe tho, if you don't get a "regular" ma shoe. The reason I don't wear my ma shoes is because they're too narrow for my fat foot, and I had to order a 1/2 size larger to get'em on - so they're looonnngggg.

[Skip J.]

You're welcome!

[Lucas]

ive really enjoyed adidas rio grande http://www.uk-trainers.com/acatalog/adidas_riogrande_black.jpg good arch support here... but i like to practice in what i generally wear on a day to day basis though too. these are in door soccer shoes.

Similarly, Asics Onitsuka: Tigers are very nice shoes. also indoor soccer shoes: http://santos.i.ph/photo/d/524-1/onitsuka-tiger-taichi-yellow-black.jpg

those both have reinforced leather caps internally on the heel and toe. you can actually toe kick with the tip without hurting your toes as they are designed for that. you can hit with the back of your heel on a brick wall with moderate force and not hurt yourself. they also offer basic CMA matt shoes as well. some cool yin/yang designs.

I have seen some nice Pumas out there that ive wanted but havt picked any up.

Look into a company called Li Ning, some nice kungfu / tai chi shoes. sturdy, well made, and some flash if you like. 60 bucks or so. a store opened locally and i looked at their shoes. very good stuff, ill be buying a pair of their modern kungfu shoes soon.

there is always tried and true feiyue, although dont expect arch support here.

[Skip J.]

Hey Lucas; that's some nice looking shoes there!

At least with American sizes I would have a better chance of fitting my fat foot.

Thanks!

[Lucas]

hey Skip;

haha ya. i have a more narrow foot, ive found those brands tend to run on the narrow side, which helps me out. its difficult when the shoe is too wide, it wants to slide or roll up to the side too much.

part of me wants to train in combat boots :D

[the art]

hey thanks! I looked into feiyue but yeah no arch support. I'll take a look at the brands/types you've mentioned.

[Lucas]

the rio grandes i have (3 pairs) all have high arch support. not sure if its just what my local shop had in stock or if they are all like that. even after time the arch support has stayed firm.

[goju]

What does his mean??? I realize that BB spar with lower belts, so???I belonged to this school/ organization for 15 + years , how long were you there?? Back somewhere in the mid 90s they made it MANDITORY in BB Glove sparring that you HAD to wear headgear at all the CSCs run by the Soards, were you a black belt?? Did you do BB Glove Sparring?? How long were you there????:rolleyes:

you inferred that i didnt know the bbs used head gear and gloves during sparring because i didnt waste my money buying a blackbelt from your mc'dojo organization.

please dont try to snub your nose at me because i didnt get a high rank . its already widely known what laughing stock sd is in the chinese commmunity and especially how easy it is to get a bb from the csc XD

the bb class started right before the lower belt class so all of us got to frequently watch the high ranking belts spar (ungloved with out head gear) and as i said they never had us lower belts spar either with head gear during any time i attended the boulder or denver schools

your notion that they had to adopt protection due to the all the concussions that were occuring is laughable at best

takes down and throws were practically non existent in the sparring and as you can see by that video they do not go remotely close to hard continuous sparring nor do they even commonly target the head.

so please do enlighten us as to how all these concussions were happening during class ?
:D

[goju]

Most likely........For the most part it was screwing around ...and pathetic. I remember back in the day....well you know what I mean, I heard stories for years about how bad @$$ the students were back east and how much conditioning they did and all of that, I remember when the CSCs run by the Soards were somewhat like that.....now its all about how many forms you can learn:eek::rolleyes:

well theres proof right there stories you heard:rolleyes:

[the art]

Awesome, surely the internet can find 'em! Thanks again.


the rio grandes i have (3 pairs) all have high arch support. not sure if its just what my local shop had in stock or if they are all like that. even after time the arch support has stayed firm.

[tattooedmonk]

you inferred that i didnt know the bbs used head gear and gloves during sparring because i didnt waste my money buying a blackbelt from your mc'dojo organization.

please dont try to snub your nose at me because i didnt get a high rank . its already widely known what laughing stock sd is in the chinese commmunity and especially how easy it is to get a bb from the csc XD

the bb class started right before the lower belt class so all of us got to frequently watch the high ranking belts spar (ungloved with out head gear) and as i said they never had us lower belts spar either with head gear during any time i attended the boulder or denver schools

your notion that they had to adopt protection due to the all the concussions that were occuring is laughable at best

takes down and throws were practically non existent in the sparring and as you can see by that video they do not go remotely close to hard continuous sparring nor do they even commonly target the head.

so please do enlighten us as to how all these concussions were happening during class ?
:D BB glove sparring goes on once a year for a month , I was not refering to regular class, but if you knew anything you would have known what I meant.......Now I remember why I stopped having conversations with you......you are an idiot

[tattooedmonk]

well theres proof right there stories you heard:rolleyes:??? BTW ......I didnt mean Denver back east, I meant SD / Kentucky back east....dumb@$$

[goju]

BB glove sparring goes on once a year for a month , I was not refering to regular class, but if you knew anything you would have known what I meant.......Now I remember why I stopped having conversations with you......your an idiot

Oh good lord what a load of rubbish.

As the fellow before stated what was the point of the protection? they never had light feeling out sparring ever while i was there.they just told us to spar and that was it. There were no "okay go 60 percent guys" or lets do a "light round"

The notion that they had this special sparring with gloves only to do this pathetic pitter patter training makes your claims even more rediculous.:D

"your an idiot"

it is "you're " genius
:p

[goju]

??? BTW ......I didnt mean Denver back east, I meant SD / Kentucky back east....dumb@$$

yeah.. i never thought you meant denver as being back east:rolleyes:

[tattooedmonk]

you are so predictable......

you are and idiot....my mistake:rolleyes:

[tattooedmonk]

Oh good lord what a load of rubbish.

As the fellow before stated what was the point of the protection? they never had light feeling out sparring ever while i was there.they just told us to spar and that was it. There were no "okay go 60 percent guys" or lets do a "light round"

The notion that they had this special sparring with gloves only to do this pathetic pitter patter training makes your claims even more rediculous.:D

"you are an idiot"

it is "you're " genius
:pOnce again , how long were you there??????????????????????If you werent there very long then you couldnt have seen much. Everytime I was there for "Bloody Sunday" or glove sparring ( pre and post pads)all the things you have said they didnt say, they actually did . I will give you the benefit of the doubt though and say that it is possible that things have changed, whatever thats worth:eek::rolleyes:

[tattooedmonk]

yeah.. i never thought you meant denver as being back east:rolleyes:What did you think I meant then??? I was refering to what I heard about the Kentucky schools and how CSCs used to be the same way, way back when I was training with them in the beginning, as usual you turn it arond to make it sound otherwise....bye

[goju]

Once again , how long were you there??????????????????????If you werent there very long then you couldnt have seen much. Everytime I was there for "Bloody Sunday" or glove sparring ( pre and post pads)all the things you have said they didnt say, they actually did . I will give you the benefit of the doubt though and say that it is possible that things have changed, whatever thats worth:eek::rolleyes:


i was there for around seven months but im sure seeing the BB spar regulary at the end of their classes as us lower belts were coming in for class days on end meant i saw nothing right?

shucks they must lock the doors and draw the blinds when they do their "too deadly" glove sparring so none of us could have seen it

:rolleyes:

or perhaps things were always that way

:D

[goju]

What did you think I meant then??? I was refering to what I heard about the Kentucky schools and how CSCs used to be the same way, way back when I was training with them in the beginning, as usual you turn it arond to make it sound otherwise....bye

no i was just noting the stories are bunch of nonsense

its all based off of heresay that no ones ever saw

i met someone who went to csc in denver to watch a class during the late eighties and they didnt even stay during the whole hour because what they saw was a joke during training

things havent changed

[SnowDog]

Goju,

I have seen what the CSC has become just before the time you went there, and yes it is beyond pathetic. This is why many of the serious students who also studied other arts (like myself) ended up leaving the CSC.

It was better at one time, while like I said before there were better more hard core schools and much worse fluff schools, it was truely a decient school at one time. Then they decided that conditioning, sparing and drills should take a back seat to learing the 10,000 secret forms and letting people get their blck belts in under 2 yrs.....and it's been a downward spiral of suckatude ever since.

But if you can believe it, there was actually a time when they would fail people on belt tests , make you actually sweat your ass off and it was common for people to leave after upper belt sparing sessions w/ broken noses and split lips.

[the art]

Supposedly we get to work for our sashes at White Dragon. We just started there so I suspect that won't happen for awhile.

That's really too bad about CSC. You'd think they'd take a step back and maybe see their errors.

One thing I forgot to mention earlier, we tried a total of 5 schools. In retrospect, I have no idea what USSD was doing. It was weak, mild and did not resemble kung fu whatsoever, even though they claimed it was.

Now we have been working our tails off, with conditioning and then slowly learning forms. It's great!



Goju,

I have seen what the CSC has become just before the time you went there, and yes it is beyond pathetic. This is why many of the serious students who also studied other arts (like myself) ended up leaving the CSC.

It was better at one time, while like I said before there were better more hard core schools and much worse fluff schools, it was truely a decient school at one time. Then they decided that conditioning, sparing and drills should take a back seat to learing the 10,000 secret forms and letting people get their blck belts in under 2 yrs.....and it's been a downward spiral of suckatude ever since.

But if you can believe it, there was actually a time when they would fail people on belt tests , make you actually sweat your ass off and it was common for people to leave after upper belt sparing sessions w/ broken noses and split lips.

[SnowDog]

No kidding!!!! But that's what I wanted -- to get back in shape.

I visited another site, I won't mention the name, claimed to teach martial arts and kung fu --- the sihu was ginormous, like she'd been eating wayyy too many cheeseburgers. It's hard for me to train under someone like that.

So yes, thanks for the advice, I'm really happy with this place.

Glad to hear it.......I always thought they were good schools and a good group of people.

Good Luck with your trainng and finding some shoes.
I actually used shoes that looked like the Pumas you were looking at and my daughter who took it used cheerleading shoes.

Who knows maybe one of these years I'll go back and start taking classes at the Pai Lum school by my house and we'll be Kung Fu Siblings LOL!!!!! :)

[SnowDog]

Supposedly we get to work for our sashes at White Dragon. We just started there so I suspect that won't happen for awhile.

That's really too bad about CSC. You'd think they'd take a step back and maybe see their errors.

One thing I forgot to mention earlier, we tried a total of 5 schools. In retrospect, I have no idea what USSD was doing. It was weak, mild and did not resemble kung fu whatsoever, even though they claimed it was.

Now we have been working our tails off, with conditioning and then slowly learning forms. It's great!

They are really into making you work for everything at Pi Lum......The way it should be.

Did you guys start doing any of the self defense tech yet? I remember when we were doing the defenses for chokes and headlocks after you learned the moves/ positioning they would have your fellow students really attack you (try to take you down with a headlock or really choke you until you tap or escape). their philosophy was they would rather have you really do it and fail than do it half a$$ed and think you were invincible.

[the art]

They seem to be a very good group of people, helpful, kind.


Glad to hear it.......I always thought they were good schools and a good group of people.

That'd be awesome!!!!!!!!!


Who knows maybe one of these years I'll go back and start taking classes at the Pai Lum school by my house and we'll be Kung Fu Siblings LOL!!!!! :)

[the art]

No hands on self defense yet, although we are learning some techniques and lots of form practice, aside from the conditioning!


They are really into making you work for everything at Pi Lum......The way it should be.

Did you guys start doing any of the self defense tech yet? I remember when we were doing the defenses for chokes and headlocks after you learned the moves/ positioning they would have your fellow students really attack you (try to take you down with a headlock or really choke you until you tap or escape). their philosophy was they would rather have you really do it and fail than do it half a$$ed and think you were invincible.

[SnowDog]

No hands on self defense yet, although we are learning some techniques and lots of form practice, aside from the conditioning!

Now that I think about it, when I was there we did basic punches, kicks and stances along w/ conditioning and meditation then a bunch of blocking/ striking drills before we learned the self defense tech and some takedowns. And if I remember you learn the first few short Tiger forms in your first 6 months.

It's a lot of fun......I think you guys will enjoy it.

[the art]

Yep, short form of the tiger is what we are working on. But at least a good 1/2 hour to 45 min. of conditioning/working out. Tough stuff!! But yes, loads of fun and I feel like I'm getting in shape. I really like the sifu there, Post, and really like the others in the school.

[MasterKiller]

But good news all! We joined White Dragon. And to Snowdog, I now feel the pain!!!! Our first class was on Sat. and that was 1.5 hours.

They charge a reasonable monthly fee, half of what USSD wanted, and if you pay up front they knock off one month -- for a 6 mo. contract. The class was led by a guy who's been doing this since he was a kid. It was orderly, and we learned some basic kung fu animal poses. I really really liked it!!

We are signed up for twice a week with the option of a third time a week.

Thanks everyone for your responses and advice.

FYI, Becca on this forum goes to Pai Lum in Colorado, also.

[the art]

FYI, Becca on this forum goes to Pai Lum in Colorado, also.

Thanks MasterKiller!!

[ktkungfu]

Wow, not one reply but 20 people looking at it. Must not be in Denver.

On another topic, is USSD some kind of cult or what?

Yes they are a cult stay away from ussd!:mad:

[Iron_Lung]

Glad to see you found a good fit for you and your husband. I have also recently began my training and went through a similar process to find an appropriate school. It was A LOT of sifting through ... um,*stuff* (including CSC and other less than appropriate options) to get to the good stuff, but I found a great traditional school that I am very happy with and look forward to my future there. Congrats!

Here's to health!