Jiulong Baguazhang

[kfson]

In the DFW area there is a school teaching Jiulong Baguazhang.

Anyone, what is the difference between this style of Bagua and other Bagua styles?
Is the associated Xing Yi any different from the general Hebei style?

[sanjuro_ronin]

In the DFW area there is a school teaching Jiulong Baguazhang.

Anyone, what is the difference between this style of Bagua and other Bagua styles?
Is the associated Xing Yi any different from the general Hebei style?

Our very own Dale Dugas is a teacher of jiulong Bagua.

[Dale Dugas]

Jiulong Baguazhang is a family style that was developed in Sichuan province.

It is more based on the Yijing concepts than what you see taught in most schools.

It does not share the Dong Hai Chuan lineage but is a very powerful system for health and self defense.

We do not have the mini forms for palm changes that some systems have.

We have 8 palms that have major and minor variations to angles and power applications.

The Xingyiquan taught is also more conceptual than animal based styles. Very powerful and direct. Shifu Alan Marshall teaches this system and is one of the most powerful people I have ever met.

Feel free to contact me off forum via my email address or phone number.

[wiz cool c]

if it doesn't share Dong Hai Chuan lineage, where does it come from?

[dimethylsea]

if it doesn't share Dong Hai Chuan lineage, where does it come from?

Asking questions like this will always be highly unsatisfying to those looking for "hard evidence".
Dr. Painter says he had a teacher whose family was from Sichuan Province. You won't find much if any hard evidence (like say written manuscripts or stelae or things) that goes back further than Dr. Painter's teacher.

This isn't indicative of fraud or dishonesty... it's just the nature of a family style. For instance.. you realize the only direct evidence of Dong Haichuan's existence is a sketch made after his death and anecdotes by people who *claimed* he existed? And none of those people left direct first person written accounts (most of them were illiterate!).

You have to "go and see". See if what Jiulong is teaching suits you. See if you can get better doing what they do. If it does and you can... then train it hard.

I prefer a specific flavor and would not excel at Jiulong. But it might be right up your alley.
Some of the best Gao style on the planet claims a non-Dong Haichuan ancestry in it's mix, so don't think the different lineage other than Dong's is anything but a historical footnote.

Go and see what you like. If the skills, people, methods and price is right.. jump on it.

[kfson]

I prefer a specific flavor and would not excel at Jiulong. But it might be right up your alley.
Some of the best Gao style on the planet claims a non-Dong Haichuan ancestry in it's mix, so don't think the different lineage other than Dong's is anything but a historical footnote.

Go and see what you like. If the skills, people, methods and price is right.. jump on it.

What do you perceive to be the differences between Jiulong and Gao styles?

[dimethylsea]

What do you perceive to be the differences between Jiulong and Gao styles?

I couldn't really comment on specific differences too much. Circle walking method is totally different, body method is very different, the goals of the forms and the way the system is organized is completely different.

Someone who was steeped in Jiulong would probably never want to do things like Gao style does them and vice versa. Switching would require a serious paradigm shift.

People get hung up on differences or "who's better". This is a fallacy to me. None of us are our teachers or our grandteachers. The people who founded our styles are not us. We can't do what they can.

Find what you like and enjoy it. Whatever flavor that is.

[B-Rad]

They've got a bunch of vids on youtube if you want to check it out.

[Dale Dugas]

Jiulong Baguazhang is a family system that was developed in Sichuan.

rather than gripe about the founders, as was mentioned by Dimethylsea, what is important is does the system do something for you.

I was bitten years ago and have immersed myself in the system, and teach it professionally now.

Others like what BK Frantzis teaches, others the Baguazhang of Tang Shou Dao, and Gao style.

All styles have something to offer individuals.

[chusauli]

All systems are made by people.

The secret family stuff always raises eyebrows and flies against the face of what is commonly accepted.

But if someone can make it work, and it has merit, and it is useful, then its all good and people who study it would probably be better than most, especially if they know how to use it.

For example, if Mr. X made up a system, but he's a hulk of a man and has a lot of fighting experience, has proper execution of power, and researched other arts, and can make work the stuff he's collected and put together from various sources, and then spouts an unknown "lineage"...he's basically doing nothing other than what any other founder of an art has done. Then if he's a good teacher and can replicate the process in his students, all the more power to him.

No system falls out of the sky from the heavens.

[dimethylsea]

All systems are made by people.
.....
No system falls out of the sky from the heavens.

I agree.

Each person who chooses to walk the circle (something apparently pointless) creates their art hour by hour, day by day, year by year.

This idea of walking the circle is the critical bit. If you walk the circle enough, you get certain sorts of results. Each person can utilize the knowledge of their teacher to guide them in their practice, but ultimately the teacher isn't the one walking your circle.. you are. You have to live it and own it yourself. You can choose to follow a specific method to enhance the results of your practice, you can utilize the accumulated knowledge of a given line, but ultimately the results are up to you.

[kfson]

It seems many of the great practitioners have gone up into the pountians and consulted with a Daoist hermit for several years and come back to civilization with an improved art. So, maybe a new art can drop right out of the heavens.

[dimethylsea]

It seems many of the great practitioners have gone up into the pountians and consulted with a Daoist hermit for several years and come back to civilization with an improved art. So, maybe a new art can drop right out of the heavens.

Well the funny thing about that is.. some people in the bagua community are of the belief that after enough work with the neigung/circle walking part.. the intermediate or adept practitioner then gets the advanced stuff directly from the Dao itself, or perhaps Heaven. I think the phrase is something like "the teachings of celestial dragon" or something like that. Kumar mentions it in his books.

Some people came to the art precisely because of things that "dropped out of the heavens" on them (in a metaphorical and spiritual sense).

The first person I ever saw do bagua never did any forms at all. He was/is a virtuoso jazz guitarist and does bagua as his "companion art" to music. He walked out and did a freeform impromptu jam (what some bagua people would call a "swimming dragon" improvisation). In many respects you really could say Stan learned it "right from the sky". He soared on pure love for his thing and the joy of "doing it". Just like his music really.

[kfson]

Well the funny thing about that is.. some people in the bagua community are of the belief that after enough work with the neigung/circle walking part.. the intermediate or adept practitioner then gets the advanced stuff directly from the Dao itself, or perhaps Heaven. I think the phrase is something like "the teachings of celestial dragon" or something like that. Kumar mentions it in his books.

Some people came to the art precisely because of things that "dropped out of the heavens" on them (in a metaphorical and spiritual sense).

The first person I ever saw do bagua never did any forms at all. He was/is a virtuoso jazz guitarist and does bagua as his "companion art" to music. He walked out and did a freeform impromptu jam (what some bagua people would call a "swimming dragon" improvisation). In many respects you really could say Stan learned it "right from the sky". He soared on pure love for his thing and the joy of "doing it". Just like his music really.

Dog gone it. Why can't more people see martial arts in this respect. The Celestial Dragon is all around us everyday.

[uki]

All styles have something to offer individuals.and all individuals have something to offer a style. :)

[Scott R. Brown]

Well the funny thing about that is.. some people in the bagua community are of the belief that after enough work with the neigung/circle walking part.. the intermediate or adept practitioner then gets the advanced stuff directly from the Dao itself, or perhaps Heaven. I think the phrase is something like "the teachings of celestial dragon" or something like that. Kumar mentions it in his books.

Some people came to the art precisely because of things that "dropped out of the heavens" on them (in a metaphorical and spiritual sense).

The first person I ever saw do bagua never did any forms at all. He was/is a virtuoso jazz guitarist and does bagua as his "companion art" to music. He walked out and did a freeform impromptu jam (what some bagua people would call a "swimming dragon" improvisation). In many respects you really could say Stan learned it "right from the sky". He soared on pure love for his thing and the joy of "doing it". Just like his music really.


Dog gone it. Why can't more people see martial arts in this respect. The Celestial Dragon is all around us everyday.

"Free form" was part of my Black Belt test some 30 years ago!:)

[DRAGONSIHING]

I was a student of Dr. Painter's starting many, many years ago when he first opened a school. I guess that makes me Dale's Kung fu uncle. LOL... Started off with Tao Chi Chuan or daojichuan. After several years trained in baqua and xingyi. Also school had a qigong/mental/philosophical side, too. Have seen pictures of Sifu Painter as a young man with his teacher. I have also taken classes in bagua and xingyi from a Grandmaster. His styles were also a family system, suppressed and kept secret during all the trouble in China, but good enuf to teach to Chinese Army Special Forces. He also taught qigong. Styles were different, but most of the basic principles were the same. all worked for me in the past and still do today. am now mostly practising Yang Tai and again what I learned 30+ years ago applies. Learn basics well and you can adapt to other internal systems. Still learning and when I quit it will be time to dispose of remains. Any more questions you may just want to pm me which would be ok.

[Dale Dugas]

sihing,

Thank you for sharing your experiences with us in the thread.