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olkat314
04-30-2000, 08:55 AM
Dear All:

Just wondering -- I've heard of the term "12 Character Principles" which embody the 12 most important principles of the art, but I also have heard of the "31 hand attacks" which embody all of the 12 character principles. So if there are the "31 hand attacks", why even have 12 character principles?

Is it that some schools have 12 and some 31? What's up?

Thanks.

Tak

Red Masque
04-30-2000, 06:42 PM
All I could suggest is that the 12 Character princilples are principles of the art & the 31 hand attacks are an excersize that attempts to use those principles??? I have not heard of the "31" before. What lineage is this from??? The fact that it is not mentioned in any of the books that I have read would suggest to me that it is a recent creation & not an official part of the original cirriculum for neither Wong Hon Fun nor Ciu Chi Man lineages (at least I find no mention of it in Leung Tings (compilation) comprehensive book re-released last year ).
I hope this helps,
-RM

04-30-2000, 07:49 PM
Actually it is discussed extensively in Leung Ting's book of Seven Star Praying Mantis. The 12 character principle is considered by many the most important and foundational section of mantis encompassing important ideas of the system. Although some people have differing names in it (eg. ou lou choi kwa dieu jen bung da vs. ou lou choi kwa dieu jen dieu da) the majority of it is similar among 7* schools. I would check out Sifu Funk's page and Sifu Albright's web site on this for more information.

HuangKaiVun
04-30-2000, 08:04 PM
All rules in life are derived from the experiences gleaned from honest steady practice.

Red Masque
04-30-2000, 11:06 PM
Don't give me this "actually" stuff sir.
If you read my post, I am refffering to the 31 hand thing. There are references all over the place concerning the 12 principles, including the book I bought this weekend, the one I mentioned...written by Dr Leung Ting.

mantis108
05-01-2000, 05:08 AM
Just curious, isn't DR. Leung Ting a Sifu of Wing Chun? I'm kind of wondering in what capacity was he commenting on the Praying Mantis systems. I don't mean this as a disrespect. Please do not be up set by this.

Peace to all

Mantis 108

chatsingtonglong
05-01-2000, 12:14 PM
The 31 hand techniques referred to are probably the 31 keywords verbal formula - from Lee Kam Wing's "The Secret of Seven Star Mantis Style".

The Leung Ting book refers to the original 12 keyword verbal formula which is common throughout almost all of mantis (found right throughout most northern styles in China and abroad, if not all - with very little variation). Lee Kam Wing expanded on that in his second book to create the 31 referred to in the original post. So no, they are not an excercise merely an expansion on the traditional 12 keywords (they in fact incorporate the original 12 plus a lot of the other techniques found in mantis but not expressly reffered to).

By the way Leung Ting basically translated Lee Kam Wings words for that first book which is how a book written by a Wingchun master can be so authoritive.

cheers

Matt

Michael Dasargo
06-07-2000, 11:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by olkat314:
Dear All:

Just wondering -- I've heard of the term "12 Character Principles" which embody the 12 most important principles of the art, but I also have heard of the "31 hand attacks" which embody all of the 12 character principles. So if there are the "31 hand attacks", why even have 12 character principles?

Is it that some schools have 12 and some 31? What's up?

Thanks.

Tak[/quote]

Hello Tak,
The 12 word Formula is a theoritical guide to the principals of Tang Lang Chuan. The techniques involved in the Formula contain both Hard and Soft elements of Kung Fu.

The words can be applied as individual techniques, but the purpose of the Formula is to internalize the THEORY of the technique, and tie in certain techniques to create a formula of applied theories working in unison.

i.e. 1.Ou/Hook:Soft Grab
2. Lou/Grapple:Hard grab.
The two have specific intentions which differientiate in theory, but the two can also be applied as a formula to, 1. Feel(Ting) 2.Control, and can thus be concluded with 3.)Tsoi: Pluck.

The 31 Keyword Formula, to my knowledge, was created by Lee Kam Wing. The 12 Word Formula can be found in the 31 because it is the root/foundation, said to have been created by the creator of Tang Lang Chuan, Wang Lang.

Hope this helps,


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M.Dasargo
The Traditinal Kung Fu Academy
San Diego, CA.USA

mantis108
06-08-2000, 01:47 AM
Dear Michael,

Impressive posting, would you care to elabrate more. It would be wonderful if you would share your insight with the forum. Not that it matters, may I ask which branch of Mantis is your school teaching? I'm a practitioner of Tai Chi Praying Mantis. Thanks for sharing.

Mantis108

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Michael Dasargo
06-08-2000, 02:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mantis108:
Dear Michael,

Impressive posting, would you care to elabrate more. It would be wonderful if you would share your insight with the forum. Not that it matters, may I ask which branch of Mantis is your school teaching? I'm a practitioner of Tai Chi Praying Mantis. Thanks for sharing.

Mantis108

[/quote]
Mantis108 Ninhao ma?

I teach Qi Xing Tang Lang Quan(Seven Star Praying Mantis Boxing). You can find an artilce that my Sifu and I did for Qigong/Kung Fu Magazine @
www.AuthenticKungFu.com (http://www.AuthenticKungFu.com)

If the "Articles" section is not yet running, then it should be up soon. We are currently in the process of publishing another issue dedicated to the 12 Word Formula.

I'll happily post more on the Formula as I understand it, at another time.

Please stay in touch,

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M.Dasargo
The Traditinal Kung Fu Academy
San Diego, CA.USA

mantis108
06-09-2000, 03:35 AM
Dear Michael

Thanks for the info. I have visited the site. You guys have done a wonderful job. I certainly will stay in touch as I am very into knowledge and technical exchange.

Mantis108

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