Hard work vs Talent opinion

[ManilaCrane]

Ok guys, i just want your insights and opinions for this one: What do you believe in the most in the world of martial arts, particularly Kung Fu, Hard work or Talent? For me, i believe that hard work can surpass the talent with motivation and confidence :)

[uki]

talented people can do talented hard work. :p

[Frost]

no matter what people like to think talent nearly always wins out.......

the big point comes when talented guys can no longer get bye on their natural skills ...do they then have the will to carry on and try harder or do they give in? The guy who in high school was always the biggest and fasted without even trying, and captained the football team... then going to college where everyone is his size and not makeing the team and giving up is an example here, he has never had to work hard and never forged the will to win

But if the talented guy picks up the challange and starts working hard (like GSP did) then watch out

[goju]

^bingo:D:D

[sanjuro_ronin]

Why must it be an either/ or equation?
Fact is, talented people are hard workers, that how they take those talents and become the elite.
Sure they have a "genetic edge" already, but that has always been the case since the dawn of time.
Some people are better at certain things than others, period.
The goal is to become the best YOU can BE, not better than everyone else.
The is another factor that the elite have, they aim high, they aim to be the best yes, but not AT the level of others but ABOVE them, they want to be the best, period.
And that best = best possible not best available.

[MightyB]

Hard Work can outweigh natural talent as long as you have Realistic and Specific Goals + discipline and a specific, clearly articulated, and well designed training program.

Everyone has something that they're talented in. If you have a devastating right straight - then capitalize on that by designing everything you do around that move. Learn to defend against every conceivable kick, one kick at a time, then learn good striking defense with the goal always being to set up to maximize your natural talent... i.e. your "go to" move the straight right.

[neverfold]

I'm a firm believer that hard work will always win over talent in the end. But I agree with above posts that a hard working talented person would indeed rock. :P

[sanjuro_ronin]

Guys, I know its nice to think that, but we have to give credit where credit is due too.
You don't run the 100 meters in under 10 seconds by just "hard work".
Nor do you break world records in ANYTHING.

I know that in the fight game there is this view that somehow, hard work beats natural talent, there is this hope that the naturla "gazel" s too lazy to do hard work.
That is NOT the case.
I recall a kid telling my old boxing coach that hard work would take him to the top ( he wasn't very good), just like it did Rocky Marciano.
My coach enlightned him, it is nice to believe the stories of Rocky being a "so-so boxer" and being champ by sheer hard work, the fact is:
He was a great boxer, had uncommon KO power and a rock of a jaw, in other words, he was a genetic freak AND he worked VERY hard.

[bawang]

what do u guys mean by talent? im confused. doesnt hard work give u talent

[sanjuro_ronin]

what do u guys mean by talent? im confused. doesnt hard work give u talent

Talent is a "genetic" predisposition to be good at something, to be "born" with it.

[bawang]

o ok thx. then of course talent wins.

but for north america i think its more of people raised in a peaceful environment then just learning about fighting thru tv and entertainment. its mor about mindset in my opinion

because lots of ppls learn about fighting thru movies and tv and internet videos since a young age. theyir mindset about fighting is "stuck"

ur all suposed to be hairy angry ax swinging barbarians living in a forest 2000 years ago i dont think genetics is a big part rlly. (i joke)

[xcakid]

Less talented people have to work harder than those that have the knack and talent for the martial arts.

Example:

One student with no instinct/talent for the martial may take months to learn a form properly, or a combination, or even the proper way of throwing a side kick with power. Whereas someone with instinct/talent for martial arts may take them a couple of weeks.

I personally seem to have a knack lin earning forms. I can learn a long a$$ form in a couple of hours and actually remember it. Some of my colleagues may take a couple of weeks.

[kfson]

In eighth grade I was 5'-8" and pretty hot shyte in the 100. At one meet, another school put a girl in the boys 100, 6'-2", with legs up to her arm pits. There was nothing I could do to beat out talent and physics... no matter how hard I trained for the rest of my life.:mad:

[bawang]

i think if someone had their ass beat as a child then they will have natural talent. if they get treated like a big baby then they grow up cant fight. simple mathematics

[Drake]

If a person has natural talent and works even remotely as hard as you, talent will win. Sure, it sounds great that if you work really hard, you can be the best, but that simply isn't true. Life isn't fair, folks.

[MightyB]

Guys, I know its nice to think that, but we have to give credit where credit is due too.
You don't run the 100 meters in under 10 seconds by just "hard work".
Nor do you break world records in ANYTHING.

I know that in the fight game there is this view that somehow, hard work beats natural talent, there is this hope that the naturla "gazel" s too lazy to do hard work.
That is NOT the case.
I recall a kid telling my old boxing coach that hard work would take him to the top ( he wasn't very good), just like it did Rocky Marciano.
My coach enlightned him, it is nice to believe the stories of Rocky being a "so-so boxer" and being champ by sheer hard work, the fact is:
He was a great boxer, had uncommon KO power and a rock of a jaw, in other words, he was a genetic freak AND he worked VERY hard.

The trick is finding what you are good at and working hard at making that thing great. I believe everyone has a talent - what happens is they neglect that with poor training habits. That's why you'll see people training 10 - 15 - 20 years without being able to demonstrate real skill and then you'll see someone with 6 months that's just a demon on the floor.

Too many people try to do too much. I'll use grappling as an example (I know this is supposed to be about kf - but grappling is easier to describe). You can be very successful - even considered Elite with just a half-dozen to a dozen moves. Basically by focusing on a few moves that work in a variety of situations and scenarios, your training is way more productive than trying to learn every sweep and submission move. Learn 2 sweeps, learn 3 submissions, learn 2 takedowns, focus on 2 positions of dominance, learn 1 or 2 ways to pass a guard, and then learn to squirm away from the basic hold-downs. Build cardio, and be aggressive. BAM - you're tops. It's even better if you realize that right handed grapplers tend to attack to their left so that's where everyone concentrates their training. Be different and specialize in attacking to your right. Now you have an advantage over at least 80% of the grapplers out there through smart training plus hard work.

[Lee Chiang Po]

This is exactly what Martial Arts are designed to do, by putting you on an equal level with talent. Just raw talent can get you over most times, and it puts you a bit ahead of the others. In order to defend yourself amongst the talented, you work hard to develop the skills to put you up there. However, if the talented individual chooses to work hard and learn your Martial Art, then you have a new problem. This is the whole thing really, and it depends on what the talented person is learning. I have known a few very talented fighters, but they were actually just above average fist fighters. I could use Jujitsu leverage and such to overcome them in a fight. If I were to attempt to stand and slug with them, I would be lacking in that talent and the outcome would have seemed obvious. With hard work you can achieve a level of skill to equal natural talent, and possibly overcome it. But again, there are going to be variables involved.

[Frost]

Guys, I know its nice to think that, but we have to give credit where credit is due too.
You don't run the 100 meters in under 10 seconds by just "hard work".
Nor do you break world records in ANYTHING.

I know that in the fight game there is this view that somehow, hard work beats natural talent, there is this hope that the naturla "gazel" s too lazy to do hard work.
That is NOT the case.
I recall a kid telling my old boxing coach that hard work would take him to the top ( he wasn't very good), just like it did Rocky Marciano.
My coach enlightned him, it is nice to believe the stories of Rocky being a "so-so boxer" and being champ by sheer hard work, the fact is:
He was a great boxer, had uncommon KO power and a rock of a jaw, in other words, he was a genetic freak AND he worked VERY hard.

True talent mixed with a good work ethic is not something you can overcome no matter what people wish to believe.

i remember seeing a kid start in our gym that was naturally fast explosive, powerful and had great reflexes, he worked his ass off (as did a lot of other guys) and is now fighting in the UFC, lots of guys trained just as hard as he did but got nowhere near him because they lacked that talent, or rather their talent relatively not as good as his

[GeneChing]

But most of you don't have either, so it's a moot point. :p

[David Jamieson]

But most of you don't have either, so it's a moot point. :p

you're just bitter because you're old compared to all these young turks. :p

[sanjuro_ronin]

Frost and mighty B, well said.

[uki]

But most of you don't have either, so it's a moot point.speak for yourself... out of 20,500+ members on this site, i will be so bold as to say i am the only one who can box three 9lb iron balls. :p

[IronFist]

Well, it's similar to music.

I used to teach guitar back in the day, and some students would learn so quickly with minimal effort on their part; they had an amazing amount of talent. Other students would take sooo long to make progress. And there were some students who didn't have much talent but worked SO HARD at it, and they slowly progressed.

MA is kind of the same way.

You can always improve what you have with hard work, but the playing field isn't fair from the beginning.

As far as pro sports go, the pros are the ones with the genetics and natural talent who also work hard (because their competition has the genetics and the natural talent and is also working hard).


Or it's like me and weight lifting. With the exception of pullups, I'm not naturally a strong person. I have to bust effing ass in the gym to make progress. It took me years before I could bench 225 for even one rep, yet from time to time I see people show up and knock out 225 on their first day (mostly naturally huge black guys, but still).

And then when I get sick and can't eat and train for a short period of time, I lose tons of strength and weight. It's like gaining weight and strength is always an uphill battle for me. But I slowly make progress because I have worked hard at it for the last 10 years and spent hundreds of hours researching the works of the best strength scientists in the world, although you wouldn't really be able to tell from looking at me.

There are other people with great genetics for it who show up and put forth 70% as much effort as I do and get huge and strong fairly easily.

But it's like that for everything.

Watch American Idol. Some people take years of voice lessons and still can't carry a tune. Other people have never had a single lesson in their life and are phenomenal.

[David Jamieson]

there is no one answer to it.

some days you're up, some days you're down, other days you're in between. :)

pure raw talent is pure raw talent and that can be further refined with effort.

But someone can work very hard at something they have no natural inclination towards and still after years are fumbling idiots when compared to someone who is talented in the same area.

natural skill can be refined.

complete lack of skill cannot be attained through hard work alone. It will take you quite a lot f effort to even get halfway mediocre with a skill set that is outside of your natural inclinations.

Know thyself and you will find what you excel at. When you do that (find it) stick with it and do it as well as you are able. You'll be surprised at how you stand out once you find your passion.

I'm perfectly happy in those areas where I am skilled although in a mediocre way. I invest more time into what I'm good at but I don't let that stop me from trying new things and always being mindful that there is something more to learn and practice.

No matter what it is. :)

[Hardwork108]

Ok guys, i just want your insights and opinions for this one: What do you believe in the most in the world of martial arts, particularly Kung Fu, Hard work or Talent? For me, i believe that hard work can surpass the talent with motivation and confidence :)

Hard work all the way! :D


Working hard will bring out the best in YOU, even if you are not that talented to start with.

IMHO, bringing out the best in you is what kung fu training is all about!

[ManilaCrane]

I always go by this quote: "A true quality of a martial artist is not in the number of techniques or how much talent one possesses. What's most important is the determination to never give up." :) Just like my signature.

[Hardwork108]

But most of you don't have either, so it's a moot point. :p

:eek:


,,,,,,,

[Jimbo]

As mentioned in posts by others, a degree of natural aptitude plus the motivation to work hard are essential. The key is motivation to work at it. I can't count the number of people I've trained with who came along blessed with loads of natural talent, but who, after a period of rapid progress, eventually get bored, burn out and quit the MA's altogether. Or sometimes it's simply other things in life taking precedence over MA. Oddly enough, on a few occasions, such naturally talented people came back after some (sometimes considerable) time away, attempting to pick up where they left off, but time had passed them by, and they seemed unable to recapture the ability and ease they once displayed, and dropping by the wayside again soon after.

Even those with little natural talent for MA can progress for themselves with consistent hard work and a deep interest. And that's all that's important for them. They're not trying to be world-beaters, just to always become better than they are/were.

Some naturally talented people may find it too easy and not appreciate the difficulty most others must overcome to learn a particular thing. Without feeling a challenge, they lost motivation, often not realizing that despite their talent, they are still far from perfect. It's great to be a prodigy, but what good would it be if one blazed onto the scene, is a terror within a couple months, then after a short time (months or even years) disappears forever? As a kid, I had a natural talent for violin; I never could read music, but could beautifully reproduce any tune in class by ear easily and almost immediately, even retaining it. Little good that was; I ended up being bored and quit after a couple of years.

However, also as mentioned in an earlier post, some people can consistently work and work, and still never really seem to make much or any progress. A certain aptitude is indeed necessary. Just like an earlier-mentioned example of singing. If you lack any talent for it, you'll simply never get good at it; same for anything else. Why would people expect MA to be different than any other undertaking? The problem could also be that they only do the same thing over and over again in exactly the same way, expecting a different result.

Learning MA's has always been easy for me, and I've always liked working hard at it. But there have been challenges along the way to keep me down to earth and motivated, too. A certain degree of natural aptitude, challenges to overcome, and the love of doing whatever it is you want to do are a necessity.

[Dragonzbane76]

True talent mixed with a good work ethic is not something you can overcome no matter what people wish to believe.

i remember seeing a kid start in our gym that was naturally fast explosive, powerful and had great reflexes, he worked his ass off (as did a lot of other guys) and is now fighting in the UFC, lots of guys trained just as hard as he did but got nowhere near him because they lacked that talent, or rather their talent relatively not as good as his

I think its a mixture of both, to be great and go places you have to have talent and great work ethic. To be just middle of the road guy and think that hard work will get you to the top is not possible, most professional athletes start out with top notch talent and then train like there is not tomorrow and sacrifice a lot along the way.

[goju]

you're just bitter because you're old compared to all these young turks. :p
hes still not over the fact i stole gina carano from him so he takes it out on all of us
sigh:D

[SnowDog]

Just to chime in on this topic.

You'll never have a champion that is only one or the other. They have to have both.

I've seen a lot of hardworking athletes get to a high level in their sport (Much higher than they should have been phsycially able to), but they still hit a level where if they don't have the natural talent they cannot progress to that championship type level.

And I've seem many naturally talented athletes that got by on thier natural abilities for years, but they slacked off in their training only to not reach the highest levels of their sport either. (Infact I saw it in one of my musician friends, and lived it with my playing soccer growing up.)

But if you look at ALL OF the best of the best in their chosen sports / Fields all of them have that mix of natural talent and hard work to reach the top.

[SPJ]

yes. you do need both

just like the craftsman found a good piece of rock, wood, jade--

with diligent carving and refining, it becomes a fine craft--

from crude talent, we train and refine to be the best or the finest--

--

to make a good sword, you need to find a good raw material/iron --

with hundreds of hammering and into the fire--- in to the water to cool---more hammering--

a superb sword is made--

---