Is San Shou the Correct Full-Contact Expression for Kung Fu?

[HumbleWCGuy]

Let me say first that really like good San Shou. I think that it is the highest expression of kickboxing.

However, after attending the Arnold Classic and seeing a lot of smoker quality San Shou, I was disturbed. It was mostly guys with some kung fu experience and high school wrestling violating principles of solid kickboxing, plumbing, and judo.

It just seems to me that American Kung Fu does not have a strong infrastructure for San Shou. Should we stick with it and try to mold our full-contact fighters into, "kickboxing judoka," or would we be better served by creating a different full-contact expression of kung fu?

[YungChun]

Let me say first that really like good San Shou. I think that it is the highest expression of kickboxing.


CMA <> Kickboxing



It just seems to me that American Kung Fu does not have a strong infrastructure for San Shou. Should we stick with it and try to mold our full-contact fighters into, "kickboxing judoka," or would we be better served by creating a different full-contact expression of kung fu?


Well it would be nice if "we" could create something new, how "we" would do that I have no idea..

But one option that I like for training and that could cross over to a competition format is the full-contact knockdown match.. borrowed from Kyokushin but allowing attacks to the head.

It's a good balance of full contact with emphasis on a quick win, power, energy issuing and limited time for severe damage.

If I get a school going in the future this is one model I would use.

[CFT]

Plumbing? (Thai plum I'm guessing).

[HumbleWCGuy]

Plumbing? (Thai plum I'm guessing).
I suppose... I am not sure that they have the market cornered on it as the media seems to suggest.

[Frost]

I suppose... I am not sure that they have the market cornered on it as the media seems to suggest.

really? apart from some buramese systems i have seen i have not really seen the plum anywhere else, have you?

[CFT]

Wing Chun has the single collar tie (mung geng sau - neck pulling hand) in the wooden dummy form. Don't think it is drilled as well as in Muay Thai.

[Frost]

Wing Chun has the single collar tie (mung geng sau - neck pulling hand) in the wooden dummy form. Don't think it is drilled as well as in Muay Thai.

yep and thats the probleom, lots of systems have techniques that look like grappling (anelich on here used to post about simularites between moves in his wing chun and BJJ) but unless they are drilled they will not come out. One form of kung fu i trained had a version of the single leg defence, but it was not drilled and it was not until i started grappling that i saw what it could be used for. Simply having the hand or body position is not enough, it needs to be drilled.

[HumbleWCGuy]

really? apart from some buramese systems i have seen i have not really seen the plum anywhere else, have you?

I was introduced to it as a part of a small Mongolian wrestling and Chin na component to my standard Kung Fu Training.

[punchdrunk]

San shou is great! It's been around for a long time and is just starting to get noticed by the general MA crowd now, because of Cung Le. Yes most comps are pretty low level but that is true of all venues, the strides it has made just in the last decade are huge and the training methods at most schools are just getting better and better. if any Wing Chun students want to get real skills they should train san shou for the opportunity to test their ideas. The more people who participate the more experience is shared and all kung fu will benefit. It is a largely safe way to compete or train and the learning curve is fast because it is all tested and used with non compliant training partners. Go to a mma or full contact school and say you've trained sanshou for a year or two and they'll be curious enough to work with you. Go to the same school and say you've done Wing Chun or kung fu for a year or two and they expect you to know zilch. Why? cause most chunners and KF shcools never train or spar full contact.

[imperialtaichi]

IMO, real fight are rather formless, but not methodless or structureless.

Forms/katas are not real fighting, but like textbooks where the methods of the system is condensed within, and the it helps the practitioner build structure. It is the traditional method to pass on knowledge. Form is not the purpose, it is the tool, the knowledge bank, the DVD.

I agree Sansau is a important part to train real fighting, but just Sansau without good fundamentals would not be as effective.

I am a big fan of the MMA fighters. The best ones alway have good physique, backed by excellent techniques.

Cheers,
John

[YouKnowWho]

It was mostly guys with some kung fu experience and high school wrestling violating principles of solid kickboxing, plumbing, and judo.

The integration of kick, punch, lock, and throw is not as simple as it may look. You can cross train boxing, MT, Aikido, and Judo and you will have great skill in punch, kick, lock, and throw. That still doesn't mean that you have the ability to achieve the true integration (use kick to set up punch, use punch to set up clinch, and use clinch to finish with throw). A true San Shou coach should have the knowledge to help his students to achieve the true integration.

[jungle-mania]

The best stand up rules in my take for now:

http://www.instinctfighting.com/professional-stand-up-fighting/rules.html

I am a true blue sanshou fighter for the past 9 years and many more years in others standup, but I love these rules over sanshou anyday.