Is San Shou the Appropriate Full-contact Expression for Kung Fu?

[HumbleWCGuy]

I tried this on the Wing Chun board with no response so...


Let me say first that really like good San Shou. I think that it is the highest expression of kickboxing.

However, after attending the Arnold Classic and seeing a lot of smoker quality San Shou, I was disturbed. It was mostly guys with marginal kung fu experience attempting marry kung fu and high school wrestling. All the while they were violating principles of solid kickboxing, plumbing/standing grappling, and judo-style throwing.

It just seems to me that American Kung Fu does not have a strong infrastructure for San Shou in the North America. Should we stick with it and try to mold our full-contact fighters into, "kickboxing judoka," or would we be better served by creating a different full-contact expression of kung fu?

[David Jamieson]

Well, one sponsored show shouldn't be the foundation for dashing it all.

Ring fighting with a dab of nhb is popular these days. You're gonna get a lot of goofballs up there who believe they have something to prove.

But yeah, out of 100 fighters, maybe 5 will be talented. :)

what are you gonna do? :p

[HumbleWCGuy]

Well, one sponsored show shouldn't be the foundation for dashing it all.

Ring fighting with a dab of nhb is popular these days. You're gonna get a lot of goofballs up there who believe they have something to prove.

But yeah, out of 100 fighters, maybe 5 will be talented. :)

what are you gonna do? :p

It wasn't even talent as much as it was people having no understanding of how to do San Shou properly.

[David Jamieson]

It wasn't even talent as much as it was people having no understanding of how to do San Shou properly.

Yep, I hear ya.

A lot of guys will look at the event first, the rules seconed and worry about the rest after that.

There simply are not a lot of really talented san shou guys out there yet.
The sport is not nurtured enough in North America and it is a fairly new thing in a widespread way.

Give it time. Look how UFC started! lol :D

[uki]

full contact expression would be played out if people were being a direct physical threat to myself or my family. :)

[B.Tunks]

I would say that it pretty much is. Pro-sanshou/sanda rules are better though (i.e, no headgear, no chest protectors and shin guards with knee strikes allowed). Modified Thai rules (or 'Oriental rules' as they are occasionally known) are also good. After that it's MMA but CMA practitioners with no cross-training are disadvantaged by ground component. The various 'traditional' sanda/leitai rules (kuoshu etc) with open fingered gloves are also very good.

If you train gongfu and want to fight competitively but can find excuses not to, based on the constraints of each of the above formats, forget about it. Better just to practice for health or train for forms competitions.

BT

[blackjesus]

I saw some half-c0cked Sanda in Hong Kong and my (then) sifu said... no.. this is not Kung Fu. what is the standard pro-sanda rule like at the moment?

Would it be possible for a rule to allow Chin-na (arms, legs..etc) and open palm (finger jab/palm..etc) techniques? Would it be safe?

My Hung Gar brothers fight Amateur Kickboxing rules and Karate All Style full contact rules in Melbounre, which is relatively safe for new fighters.

[HumbleWCGuy]

I saw some half-c0cked Sanda in Hong Kong and my (then) sifu said... no.. this is not Kung Fu. what is the standard pro-sanda rule like at the moment?

Would it be possible for a rule to allow Chin-na (arms, legs..etc) and open palm (finger jab/palm..etc) techniques? Would it be safe?

My Hung Gar brothers fight Amateur Kickboxing rules and Karate All Style full contact rules in Melbounre, which is relatively safe for new fighters.

SS/SD is kickboxing that allows low kicks, knees, and takedowns. One cannot touch the knees to the ground so it is mostly judo throws. Throws are scored based on how dynamic they are.

[B.Tunks]

SS/SD is kickboxing that allows low kicks, knees, and takedowns. One cannot touch the knees to the ground so it is mostly judo throws. Throws are scored based on how dynamic they are.

I would disagree that they are judo throws. Of course you can use modified versions of certain judo throws in sanda but if you train sanda you are not training judo. Set ups and grips and finalisation are completely different. As far as I am aware or have ever exerienced, throws are not scored based on how dynamic they are. They are scored on execution. Maybe this is not the case in your country.

[HumbleWCGuy]

I would disagree that they are judo throws. Of course you can use modified versions of certain judo throws in sanda but if you train sanda you are not training judo. Set ups and grips and finalisation are completely different.
If you are familiar with pickups in judo you should see the connection. Just because it is modified doesn't mean that it isn't judo. Obviously in some parts of the world fighters rely upon Sambo, BJJ, or Shui Jao for there trows, but in North America it is Judo. Typical kung fu does not have those throws which is the point of this thread. Kung Fu people have to cross train to fight in San Shou which is why it looks so bad most of the time. Also, I can almost guarantee that if you go into San Shou School in the U.S. that they will be teaching the trows using the Japanese to further illustrate my point.



As far as I am aware or have ever exerienced, throws are not scored based on how dynamic they are. They are scored on execution. Maybe this is not the case in your country.

Obviously, clean execution figures into how devastating a throw is but...

The International Kickboxing Federation would disagree.
http://www.ikfkickboxing.com/SanShouRules.htm

3 Points:

* Any HIGH ALTITUDE or EXPLOSIVE, DEVASTATING THROW shall be awarded 3 points.

[B.Tunks]

>If you are familiar with pickups in judo you should see the connection. Just because it is modified doesn't mean that it isn't judo.

It's not meant to be. It's not in China. (yes, I've trained in judo).

>Obviously in some parts of the world fighters rely upon Sambo, BJJ, or Shui Jao for there trows,

Sanda is built around shuaijiao. You are right about how it is outside of China though, however these people are technically not really trained in sanda. Nothing wrong with that though if they achieve good results.

>but in North America it is Judo.

O.K, fair enough. What about under Chinese coaches in U.S (or those who trained under Chinese coaches)? Is there a difference.

>Typical kung fu does not have those throws which is the point of this thread.

Shuai based gongfu definitely does have 'those throws', in my opinion. Then again I am talking about Sanda the way it is coached, trained and competed in China, where it is not judo based.

>Kung Fu people have to cross train to fight in San Shou which is why it looks so bad most of the time.

In many cases, but not in all. Most just have to learn to use boxing gloves and work pads. If they are from a shuai deficient style then yes, they may need to learn to throw. In the U.S, I guess this must be from judo for many schools (though I'm doubtful if it's the case in dedicated sanda stables, though I will stand corrected).

> Also, I can almost guarantee that if you go into San Shou School in the U.S. that they will be teaching the throws using the Japanese to further illustrate my point.

I cannot argue that so i will take your word for it. Very strange as far as I'm concerned. I would guess that people trained this way would be very disadvantaged fighting in China, when it comes to throwing. From my limited understanding, many Judo throws rely very heavily on gi and belt grips and leverage and not much at all on head and neck control or being linked to trademark looping hook strikes and would need to be significantly modified to fit sanda. Many judo techniques are very compatible of course.

> 3 Points:

* Any HIGH ALTITUDE or EXPLOSIVE, DEVASTATING THROW shall be awarded 3 points.[/QUOTE]

Thanks.

BT

[B.Tunks]

I see - just re read your post and your largely talking about pick ups throws. Yes, there is very little to no diff with those methods. Still, in my view there is a fair bit of diff with the rest, bar hip tosses. actually, i see more similarities between standard sanda shuai and wrestling than judo. anyway, off track....

nice one.

T

[YouKnowWho]

Typical kung fu does not have those throws which is the point of this thread. Kung Fu people have to cross train to fight in San Shou which is why it looks so bad most of the time.
It's much easier to integrate SC than Judo into Sanshou because

- No-gi arm wrapping, and
- Use strike to set up throw.

are already trained in the SC system.

Shuai Chiao is one style of the CMA systems. In the following clips, those guys are using 100% CMA (no Judo, no boxing, no MT).

http://johnswang.com/Sanshou_1.wmv
http://johnswang.com/Sanshou_2.wmv
http://johnswang.com/Sanshou_3.wmv
http://johnswang.com/Sanshou_4.wmv
http://johnswang.com/Sanshou_5.wmv

Also there is no Judo, no boxing, no MT in the following Sanshou training clips.

http://johnswang.com/Taiwan_sc_1.wmv
http://johnswang.com/Taiwan_sc_2.wmv
http://johnswang.com/Taiwan_sc_3.wmv
http://johnswang.com/Taiwan_sc_4.wmv
http://johnswang.com/Taiwan_sc_5.wmv

[kfson]

http://johnswang.com/Sanshou_1.wmv
http://johnswang.com/Sanshou_2.wmv
http://johnswang.com/Sanshou_3.wmv
http://johnswang.com/Sanshou_4.wmv
http://johnswang.com/Sanshou_5.wmv



Is it just me or are these 5 vids very frustration to watch, and why?

[MightyB]

You lose all sense of style in full-contact events... once you've been at it awhile. Just throw with what works for you. No style- just rules that you have to follow. You should modify your training based on those rules. No sense getting hung up on "this is sanda, that isn't". Hit hard, try to make the other guy miss, and throw them down when you can.

Heck- want to really peave people off? Develop a strategy to win by forcing your opponent out of the ring. Don't even punch or throw, just shove.

(you know you can do that) ;)

[Lucas]

You lose all sense of style in full-contact events... once you've been at it awhile. Just throw with what works for you. No style- just rules that you have to follow. You should modify your training based on those rules. No sense getting hung up on "this is sanda, that isn't". Hit hard, try to make the other guy miss, and throw them down when you can.

Heck- want to really peave people off? Develop a strategy to win by forcing your opponent out of the ring. Don't even punch or throw, just shove.

(you know you can do that) ;)

id rofl till i died if i saw two guys just shove each other an entire match lol

[YouKnowWho]

Is it just me or are these 5 vids very frustration to watch, and why?
Is that because your computer (such as Apple) can only handle AVI files and not WMV file? Does anybody else have this problem?


id rofl till i died if i saw two guys just shove each other an entire match lol

Is that what Taiji pushing hands for? :D


You lose all sense of style in full-contact events.
You are right.

- A wrestler's double legs is no different from a SC guy's double legs.
- A prey mantis guy's hook punch is no different from a boxer's hook punch.
- A long fist guy's round house kick is no different from a MT guy's round house kick.

There is only effective way of doing thing. If a MT round house kick can generate more power than a long fist round house kick, it's not because there are style difference but because the long fist guy does not do it right.

When we look at MA from this angle, the style will have little meaning.

[pazman]

If your gong fu is "shuai deficient" then it really isn't gong fu, is it?:cool:

I don't have any problem with American schools using kickboxing and judo in their sanda programs. Afterall, most gong fu practitioners of the past 50 years have been passing up wrestling tournaments and full-contact kickboxing matches and instead donning silk pajamas, focusing only on taolu, and bringing shame upon Chinese martial traditions.:( These schools obviously have to get techniques that work from another art.

[HumbleWCGuy]

If your gong fu is "shuai deficient" then it really isn't gong fu, is it?:cool:



You must have a low standard for what is an acceptable level of throwing skill.

[pazman]

You must have a low standard for what is an acceptable level of throwing skill.

:confused::confused::confused:

No....perhaps my standard for what is acceptable gong fu is too high.

Also, maybe I'm not aquainted with many styles of gong fu....are there honestly styles of Chinese martial arts that don't have a signficant grappling or throwing component in them?

[MightyB]

I don't have any problem with American schools using kickboxing and judo in their sanda programs. Afterall, most gong fu practitioners of the past 50 years have been passing up wrestling tournaments and full-contact kickboxing matches and instead donning silk pajamas, focusing only on taolu, and bringing shame upon Chinese martial traditions.:( These schools obviously have to get techniques that work from another art.

This is by far the most retardedly racist, xenophobic, and ethnocentrically wrong comment I've read in so long...

Oh wait... I just read where you're posting from. The land of lost recent history.

[HumbleWCGuy]

:confused::confused::confused:

No....perhaps my standard for what is acceptable gong fu is too high.

Also, maybe I'm not aquainted with many styles of gong fu....are there honestly styles of Chinese martial arts that don't have a signficant grappling or throwing component in them?

unlikely. Throws just aren't a huge part of the art. There is a world of difference between GF and something like Judo or Shui Jaio.

[YouKnowWho]

There is a world of difference between GF and something like Judo or Shui Jaio.
Agree! The training priority are difference here. When you train SC, you first learn the application, you then learn how to enhance it by using the solo drill and equipment training. This is different from the traditional CMA form first and application later approach. Also when you learn SC, you 1st train the offense moves, you then train the defense moves, after that you start to learn how to use one move to set up another move (combo). If the CMA striking art can also use this approach (instead of solo form after solo form), the same result can be achieved as well.

In other words, if CMA striking art can use the 2 men drill approach (application) instead of the solo form training approach (performance), the combat result will be much more noticeable.

[pazman]

unlikely. Throws just aren't a huge part of the art. There is a world of difference between GF and something like Judo or Shui Jaio.

Then maybe I have trained the super-secret gong fu with the throws in it.:rolleyes:

And last time I checked, Shuai Jiao was gong fu.

[pazman]

This is by far the most retardedly racist, xenophobic, and ethnocentrically wrong comment I've read in so long...

Oh wait... I just read where you're posting from. The land of lost recent history.

You just threw down a lot of loaded words there. Care to explain in more detail?:confused:

[HumbleWCGuy]

Then maybe I have trained the super-secret gong fu with the throws in it.:rolleyes:
[/QUOTE]

I think that you are just way over estimating your understanding of throws in a San Shou match. Let's be realistic. how many throws do you know and how often do you train them? If your answer is anything other than, "I know about 50 throws/takedowns and I train them at least once per week," you should recant about knowing your trows. Great takedown ability is built upon mastery of usually of 5 throws, at most, with multiple variations and ability to use about 50 or so others.

And last time I checked, Shuai Jiao was gong fu.
It is an unusual style that falls outside the general trend.

[pazman]

WCGuy,
I think you are missing my point and that we will actually agree on most things. I train Sanda at the sports university here in Wuhan. We train throws, entries, and leg catches specifically at least twice a week, on top of the daily sparring practice. I have a Judo and kickboxing background from when I lived in Japan. So, yeah, I know about 40 throws (but I can only do about 3 with ease:()

My point was that, traditionally, throws and takedowns were the bread and butter of many Chinese martial arts. I just noticed the WC in your name probably stands for Wing Chun...I have no experience with it so I apologize for generalizing. My primary experience with traditional Chinese gongfu is mostly Chen taijiquan and Songshan Shaolinquan, along with an introduction to Mantis. In both the taijiquan and shaolinquan, the majority of the moves in the taolu deal with stand-up grappling. And yet....the majority of traditional gongfu schools don't really practice this.:confused: This is why I said "Shuai deficient" gongfu isn't really a complete gongfu. (And I mean it in a way as a friendly challenge to other gongfu players to make their practice more meaningful:))

[YouKnowWho]

the majority of the moves in the taolu deal with stand-up grappling. And yet....the majority of traditional gongfu schools don't really practice this.:confused:
The traditional taolu may contain less than 5% of the throwing skill. The throwing skill can be divided into 2 categories, the "散手跤Sanshou throws" (face to face type of throws) and "接体跤body contact throws" (back touch chest type of throws). As far as I know, the "接体跤body contact throws" such as hip throw, leg block, leg lift, leg twist, pulling throw, bowing throw, embracing throw, ... are complete missing from the taolu. Even in the "散手跤Sanshou throws" category, the spring, inner hook, outer hook, sharpening, knee seize, leg seize, ... are also missing in taolu. Throws that exist in some taolu are foot sweep, front cut, shoulder strike, firemen's carry, body control throw, ... which are about 5% of the total throws. There are about 400 major throws. The taolu may contain no more than 20 throws (20/400 = 5%).

[lkfmdc]

As far as I know, the "接体跤body contact throws" such as hip throw, leg block, leg lift, leg twist, pulling throw, bowing throw, embracing throw, ... are complete missing from the taolu.



This is NOT correct.

[MightyB]

You just threw down a lot of loaded words there. Care to explain in more detail?:confused:

Actually I'm probably more in agreement with you and the original post than I thought...

Basically San Shou as a competitive sport has only been around since 1979. It was a response by the China National Sports Committee to kung fu being perceived as nothing but a type of acrobatics because practitioners couldn't fight.

But- here's what's missing from it's official history... they didn't have a solid martial kung fu base to build san shou on (because they were still recovering from the cultural revolution)- so what we call san shou borrowed heavily from non Chinese martial arts in it's early development. We're talking western boxing, western wrestling, Judo, and thai boxing. It did become more Chinese flavored with time, but the basic throws and strikes that are the standardized curriculem of San Shou --- who's to say where they came from or what they originally were.

As an example... You watch a match - you see jabs which never were big in Asian martial arts (Benny the Jet built his success in Thailand and Japan around introducing the jab to those venues... he was the first successful American in the Southeastern Asian full contact MA world... now find me a gym in Asia that doesn't show a jab).

But- in the end, I'll agree with you that San Shou might not be the best way to showcase kung fu as a fighting art. You should read the discussion on lei tai rules for mantis on the mantis forum.

[MightyB]

Agree! The training priority are difference here. When you train SC, you first learn the application, you then learn how to enhance it by using the solo drill and equipment training. This is different from the traditional CMA form first and application later approach. Also when you learn SC, you 1st train the offense moves, you then train the defense moves, after that you start to learn how to use one move to set up another move (combo). If the CMA striking art can also use this approach (instead of solo form after solo form), the same result can be achieved as well.

In other words, if CMA striking art can use the 2 men drill approach (application) instead of the solo form training approach (performance), the combat result will be much more noticeable.

Love this- this is so true.

[B.Tunks]

MB.

Muay Thai elements were not introduced until much later. Originally, non-Chinese kicking techniques that were imported came via Karate and TKD. You are correct that Western Boxing techniques and training methods were integrated right from the start. One of my coaches was a committee member of one of the original councils for the development of modern sanda and was responsible for developing a training program for the integration of Western boxing in the Shandong team. The throws really did largely come from shuaijiao though, and any true judo influence more likely came via sambo methods. In fact more technique was lifted from freestyle wrestling. To complicate things, the story was slightly different in each province- e.g Shandong's development was different to that of Zhejiang and Guangzhou (Guangzhou Province team being one of the earliest to introduce Thai kicking methods). I'm not saying sanda didn't import significantly, but of the major indigenous components shuaijiao was the largest. Of course how much shuaijiao had previously been cross-pollinated with judo (much earlier than the development of sanda) is another matter.

Of course there is propaganda around the founding and development of sanda/sanshou, but the fact remains that although the cultural revolution was a terrible event, martial development was not completely completely stopped or retarded during that period. It was not simply a case of the cultural revolution leaving China's fighting styles without a 'solid martial base', rather that compared to countries such as Japan, Thailand and most of the West, there had never been a unified and well developed system of competitive fighting in place. Pre-Communist China had similar issues with deficiencies in full-contact competition (largely due to style disparity, lack of training methodology etc) and had begun to incorporate the hand skills of Western Boxing before the turn of the century. In fact the majority of Chinese systems didn't even target the head much until the outside influence of Western boxing. If you have a look at the development of full-contact competitive fighting in Hong Kong and SE Asia, you can see that it went through the exact same process in terms of incorporating Western Boxing, Japanese and Thai styles. They did this much earlier and and more effectively, sending coaches and athletes to Thailand and Japan even in the 70's. Why was this? Was it because the gongfu of Hong Kong was destroyed in a cultural revolution? They encountered the same problems as the PRC when trying to make Chinese boxing methods work in the ring with boxing gloves and with a generic rule set that would allow fighters from any style to compete.

Maybe the problem was that CMA were never developed with competitive fighting in mind and therefore did not translate well to the ring? Also the massive amount of diversity in CMA meant that it had always been difficult to standardise and set milestones/yardsticks in place. It is interesting to note that the Guomindang/KMT were the original major force in the development of standardised CMA (both fighting and forms) and the communists drew heavily on their work. So yes, although there is a lot of garbage told around the founding and growth of sanda, things are not as simple as they may seem. Of course there are those that would like the romantic view that sanda is 100% indigenous Chinese to continue, but there is almost no one involved in the sport these days that doesn't know and publicly acknowledge that it has heavily incorporated foreign technique and training methods. It is a bit hard to hide, as PRC teams (particularly the professional and military teams) have been importing Thai coaches and going to Thailand to train since the 90's.

SS/SD may not be the best venue to showcase CMA but apart from brawling in the street (which in my opinion and that of every teacher I've had, is what it's really for), but it's better than nothing. Personally though, the open-finger gloved versions of it are even better.

BT

[B.Tunks]

Off topic but - The 5th San Shou Vs Tai Boxing tournament was held in Chongqing, from 19-20 of March. China apparently won 4:2, with three Thai boxers KO'd. This Thai team was meant to be a good one too. I haven't seen the bouts yet but there's apparently already a few clips up on the net (at least one on youtube).

BT

[HumbleWCGuy]

Off topic but - The 5th San Shou Vs Tai Boxing tournament was held in Chongqing, from 19-20 of March. China apparently won 4:2, with three Thai boxers KO'd. This Thai team was meant to be a good one too. I haven't seen the bouts yet but there's apparently already a few clips up on the net (at least one on youtube).

BT

That's not surprizing. Thai boxing is inferior to San Shao. From a striking perspective, kiung fu contains much more knowledge than MT. Second, those who are trained to throw typically have better plumb/clinch skills.

[HumbleWCGuy]

MB.

Muay Thai elements were not introduced until much later. Originally, non-Chinese kicking techniques that were imported came via Karate and TKD.

BT

There honestly isn't that much in MT that kung fu fighters don't already possess. If MT fighters were smart, they would start watching san shao.

The only thing that gives MT an edge in the U.S. is that they are more organized as a full-contact sport.

[lkfmdc]

There is a pile of mis-information in this thread at this point.

Nothing in China is free of politics and agendas, sanshou/san da history is no exception

The roots of sanshou lie in the 1920's in attempts to modernize China and in the movement to create a modern political party. Sun Yat-Sen imported Soviet advisors to help organize the party and set up the military academy in the south. The original san shou program dates from this (ie approx 1926)

OF COURSE, the current communist government would never want you to know this

NOR, it should be noted, did the Deng government want to give much credit to Mao. Thus the often cited "1979" date....

The fact remains that the first "official" public book called "sanshou" was published in China in 1956

While the program began in the 1920's it did not really take a good shape until the 30's and the war with Japan. Instead of rival schools/men pai you had fellow Chinese battling a common foreign enemy. The environment was much more open and more TCMA fighters shared their valued material

The early Sanshou material largely show fighting WITHOUT GLOVES, often CHin Na, Shuai Jiao with jackets, and weapons work...

Neither the communists nor the cultural revolution killed it, it just STAYED INSIDE THE MILITARY.

In the military, originally an open finger kind of bag glove (similar to the current MMA gloves) was used....

In the late 70's and early 80's they experiemented with making a public sport out of San Shou. Boxing gloves were then implemented as the standard

By the time they were ready to take teh sport "public" internationally (1991) they removed knees to make it different than Muay Thai

[B.Tunks]

All good points, thanks. To clarify, the ss/sd I am generally referring to is the boxing glove wearing modern sport variety that grew out of military sanda. I would argue though that the older forms of sanda do not very closely resemble the modern variety.

Out of interest, the open finger gloves were still used in chuantong sanda comps in Shandong and Henan into the 90's.


HWCG

I don't know about the superiority of SS over MT. If that was the case, why did the Chinese go to the Thais for leg technique and later in pro-sanda for knees? SS clinching is not better than MT either. SS has a few unique skills that stand out in comparison, including the lead leg treading/side kick and throws (as far as takedowns MT also has highly developed skills).

[lkfmdc]

Again, "truth" is often obscured by nationalistic feeling and / or "agendas"

TCMA had been well exposed to both Western Boxing and Japanese Judo by the 1920's and there are strong influences of these in early and modern Sanshou/San da....

Today, you have two "modern" forms active in China. In the sports colleges you see a strong obession with purely sport, often point based, the sort of look to win by points at the expense of power (and combat effectiveness) style that many people find annoying (myself included)

The other style is rooted closer to original military style, was evident in pro matches and now is leaning towards the modern Chinese MMA movement

[HumbleWCGuy]

All good points, thanks. To clarify, the ss/sd I am generally referring to is the boxing glove wearing modern sport variety that grew out of military sanda. I would argue though that the older forms of sanda do not very closely resemble the modern variety.

Out of interest, the open finger gloves were still used in chuantong sanda comps in Shandong and Henan into the 90's.


HWCG

I don't know about the superiority of SS over MT. If that was the case, why did the Chinese go to the Thais for leg technique and later in pro-sanda for knees? SS clinching is not better than MT either. SS has a few unique skills that stand out in comparison, including the lead leg treading/side kick and throws (as far as takedowns MT also has highly developed skills).


The fact that SS fighters consistently beat up MT fighters doesn't alter your opinion?

[pazman]

The fact that SS fighters consistently beat up MT fighters doesn't alter your opinion?

:confused:
What country does this happen in?

If you're thinking of the Thailand MT and China SS match-ups here in China, you can forget most of those. Hosting a fighting event where foreigners have the possibility of outshining the Chinese fighters is strongly frowned upon by the authorities in light of nationalist sentiment. Which is a shame...it doesn't do any good for the throngs of good-hearted and talented athletes here.

The people at my gym who come from a MT background outshine their pure-trained SS teammates when it comes to kicking skill.

[Frost]

The fact that SS fighters consistently beat up MT fighters doesn't alter your opinion?

really got any evidence of this?

from what i have seen the fights in china usually go to the chinese via some strange reffing decisions (not surprising seeing as its a national sport and the chinese govenment do not want to lose face, and the thais rarily send over the best fighters) fights in thailand are fairly even as fair as i can see with slightly more wins going to the thais.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Right so the refs are fair in Thailand? Listen to yourselves. If MT looses, it was fixed. If MT wins it was a fair competition. Come on guys.

At worst SS fighters hold their own in MT rules and Destroy MTs by SS rules.

[Frost]

pork chop has written posts on here that were very lenghty and informative about how the rules are changed etc on a whim by the judges in china as the fights take place, i found it very interesting reading, i have no real view either may i like watching both arts and think to make it really fair they should fight each other under MMA rules:)

[HumbleWCGuy]

pork chop has written posts on here that were very lenghty and informative about how the rules are changed etc on a whim by the judges in china as the fights take place, i found it very interesting reading, i have no real view either may i like watching both arts and think to make it really fair they should fight each other under MMA rules:)

You are going to get some home cooking almost anywhere. If MT is dominant as people suggest then it should prevail.

[SPJ]

I tried this on the Wing Chun board with no response so...


Let me say first that really like good San Shou. I think that it is the highest expression of kickboxing.

However, after attending the Arnold Classic and seeing a lot of smoker quality San Shou, I was disturbed. It was mostly guys with marginal kung fu experience attempting marry kung fu and high school wrestling. All the while they were violating principles of solid kickboxing, plumbing/standing grappling, and judo-style throwing.

It just seems to me that American Kung Fu does not have a strong infrastructure for San Shou in the North America. Should we stick with it and try to mold our full-contact fighters into, "kickboxing judoka," or would we be better served by creating a different full-contact expression of kung fu?

san shou is only one of the format/venues with rules.

you may always have your own rules to contest your skills with other

but safety has to be in place.

you want to test your skills but not really hurting your sparring friends.

I had more than fair share of eating the dirts/dusts while shuai jiao with friends.

but we all know when to stop or tap out

we all avoid dangerous or not safe techniques

---

other than that have fun

:)

[SPJ]

there is a very nice article about learning and bringing back contesting chinese long weapon.

it is from ma ming da and published in journal of chinese martial studies (HK).

the true kung fu is expressed in the battle field.

long range weapon or chang bing qi is the norm in the ancient battle field

and so are the bows and arrows.

short weapon/sword and open hand practice are not as important

---

to truly have a test of kung fu

expression of kung fu is in your long weapon.

so pick up your long spear or shuo

practice away.

:cool:

[SPJ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnpG8WIxJrs

:)

[HumbleWCGuy]

HWCG

I don't know about the superiority of SS over MT. If that was the case, why did the Chinese go to the Thais for leg technique and later in pro-sanda for knees? SS clinching is not better than MT either. SS has a few unique skills that stand out in comparison, including the lead leg treading/side kick and throws (as far as takedowns MT also has highly developed skills).
__________________________________________________ _________________________

They may have investigated Muay Thai as they were constructing the art but the striking maintains its kung fu character. I am not sure why people dog kung fu when it looses and can't accept it when it wins. If this were a MT board I would expect all the apologists and excuse making.

[Lucas]

I am not sure why people dog kung fu when it looses and can't accept it when it wins.

curse of the underdog

[David Jamieson]

CMA must be derided as often as possible. :p

keeps it humble. :D

[B.Tunks]

They may have investigated Muay Thai as they were constructing the art but the striking maintains its kung fu character. I am not sure why people dog kung fu when it looses and can't accept it when it wins. If this were a MT board I would expect all the apologists and excuse making.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

They didn't investigate MT as they were constructing the art. Thai technique came in very recently.

I love gongfu and I get mad excited when any kind of CMA does well against any other style in any format. I'm just speaking honestly by saying that MT is a very highly refined and effective ring sport in comparison to sanda and you would be hard pressed to find better conditioned, tougher, more 'natural' ring fighters.

When it comes to point fighting with a throw biased ruleset the Chinese have been more successful against the Thais since the late 90's. As far as damage, the Thais have clearly inflicted more at each and every meeting, with very few Thai's even being injured, let alone counted out. If what I posted earlier was correct regarding the number of K.O's in the recent meeting, I will be pleasantly surprised. However, I haven't seen the quality of the Thai team - but they have started to field more decent teams in the last couple of years. In the first few years over 50% of each Thai team were not even Thai.

I will be happy when someone like Bian Maofu or Liu Hailong (or any other sanda champ such as Salikhov Muslim) makes their mark in K1. So far no Chinese or Sanda background fighter has done very well there. I believe it's coming soon. Would have been helpful to keep Sanda Wang going though.

BT

[B.Tunks]

This was in response to a deleted post:

Ha ha, come on mate. I'm hardly a MT apologist. I'm involved in promoting sanda in my country - a country that is dominated by kickboxing and Muay Thai. I trained both KB and MT in my past yet still gravitated to sanda as my preferred format because of my CMA background. If I saw no value in it I wouldn't waste my time with it. We have our own traditional sanda format in TLQ yet no one uses it in my country outside of the club, so we enter sport sanda when the opp arises because it's near enough (also mod Thai and straight KB before sanctioned sanshou was available here).

My original point was this - if you train CMA and want to compete in combat sports but feel your basic punching, kicking and throwing skills are not enough to get you by in sanda/sanshou, then it's probably best to forget about competing. Again, I feel sanda is a far more suitable format for applying CMA than MT, but only because of the restrictions in throwing.

I have experienced corrupt officiating first hand over there so nothing surprises me result-wise. I'll make up my own mind when I see the fights.

[HumbleWCGuy]

-


They didn't investigate MT as they were constructing the art. Thai technique came in very recently.

According to your website you are just a few years older than me so you don't have access to any history that I am not privy to. I can't agree with your assessment. I have been kickboxing using CMA since the mid 80's. Since Muay Thai became popular, I have only adopted a few tacits like using the swing knee and hitting with the shin more. The heavy roundhouse and diving roundhouse tactics of MT are not new to us by my understanding.




I love gongfu and I get mad excited when any kind of CMA does well against any other style in any format. I'm just speaking honestly by saying that MT is a very highly refined and effective ring sport in comparison to sanda and you would be hard pressed to find better conditioned, tougher, more 'natural' ring fighters.

When it comes to point fighting with a throw biased ruleset the Chinese have been more successful against the Thais since the late 90's. As far as damage, the Thais have clearly inflicted more at each and every meeting, with very few Thai's even being injured, let alone counted out. If what I posted earlier was correct regarding the number of K.O's in the recent meeting, I will be pleasantly surprised. However, I haven't seen the quality of the Thai team - but they have started to field more decent teams in the last couple of years. In the first few years over 50% of each Thai team were not even Thai.
If SS is more successful, why apologize for the wins? There is nothing more ridiculous in sports than having to feel like you need to apologize for winning.



I will be happy when someone like Bian Maofu or Liu Hailong (or any other sanda champ such as Salikhov Muslim) makes their mark in K1. So far no Chinese or Sanda background fighter has done very well there. I believe it's coming soon. Would have been helpful to keep Sanda Wang going though.

BT

My sense is that China is such a populated country that many of their best fighters are content fight and thrive in their own society. As an American, I am first interested in fighting and winning according to American standards and "world" standard second.

If I were the King of San Da in China, I would consider myself the best upright fighter in the world. No kickboxer in the world could stand against me. What is there to prove to K1 kickboxers or Muay Thais? Rightfully a Sanda Champion would view K1 and Muay Thai as arts that protect lesser fighters with rules. If they come to challenge me on my terms, they will lose.

[HumbleWCGuy]

This was in response to a deleted post:

Ha ha, come on mate. I'm hardly a MT apologist. I'm involved in promoting sanda in my country - a country that is dominated by kickboxing and Muay Thai. I trained both KB and MT in my past yet still gravitated to sanda as my preferred format because of my CMA background. If I saw no value in it I wouldn't waste my time with it. We have our own traditional sanda format in TLQ yet no one uses it in my country outside of the club, so we enter sport sanda when the opp arises because it's near enough (also mod Thai and straight KB before sanctioned sanshou was available here).
SS probably does suck in Australia compared to Muay Thai generally that is true in the U.S. If one wants to emerge as a legitimate SS fighter in the U.S., it is an up hill battle. Chinese SS is as devastating as anything.



My original point was this - if you train CMA and want to compete in combat sports but feel your basic punching, kicking and throwing skills are not enough to get you by in sanda/sanshou, then it's probably best to forget about competing. Again, I feel sanda is a far more suitable format for applying CMA than MT, but only because of the restrictions in throwing.

I have experienced corrupt officiating first hand over there so nothing surprises me result-wise. I'll make up my own mind when I see the fights.
I don't know about the "you" part of this. Is that an accusation? My point is that generally, kung fu throws aren't sufficient never mind my own personal expertise.

I have 3 young private students. Here is their 3 day per week training regimen.
Day 1 : 1.5 hours of bjj.
Day 3: 1.5 hours of traditional Judo
Day 5: 3 hours split between kickboxing and Wing Chun

A TCMA instructor sticking his students in the Ring Against that might want to think twice. The basics are not enough.

[B.Tunks]

Sounds like you've got it all sorted so I'll leave it at that.

[Pork Chop]

just would like to contribute
recent sanda:
3/19
http://player.youku.com/player.php/sid/XMTU5MDg5ODI0/v.swf
http://player.youku.com/player.php/sid/XMTU5MDkyMDIw/v.swf
http://player.youku.com/player.php/sid/XMTU5MTA4MjYw/v.swf
3/20
http://player.youku.com/player.php/sid/XMTU5MzI1MjE2/v.swf
http://player.youku.com/player.php/sid/XMTU5MzI2OTI0/v.swf
http://player.youku.com/player.php/sid/XMTU5MzM0MzI4/v.swf
3/21
http://player.youku.com/player.php/sid/XMTU5NTYyMDMy/v.swf
http://player.youku.com/player.php/sid/XMTU5NTY1NTI4/v.swf
http://player.youku.com/player.php/sid/XMTU5NTcwMjA4/v.swf
http://player.youku.com/player.php/sid/XMTU5NTc1NDg0/v.swf

The only guy I had heard of was Nonsai, the guy that got KOed the first day and fought again 2 days later (paycheck much?); back in January he out-pointed Dzhabar from Contender Asia, he also had a fight in canada the week before, and April 10th he's fighting again in the netherlands. Gotta stink to be kicking a guy's azz THAT bad for THAT long and get caught by a right hand outta NOWHERE. At least his second fight went the distance. Fighter Wehad fought 3 times in 3 days, winning the first by decision. Karuehard looked like he dislocated his shoulder, it was an injury that would probably otherwise been called a "no contest".

san da fighters fighting internationally:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Se7ljLqh_wU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKd-mB2vIdI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQILMQBeI7E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-yEev5tbts
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9nQmr4Gw1o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQevUhApRKQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpIi-FHqaH0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLB3MUxJcHE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8ndrVscUDo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lW_ABFpfLlE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pY1ydTZJ_RE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7zKz9wbDF4&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-irmsV2JfI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKnEfpLOoXI&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZjsUZsJVFw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIKHpPeaws0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ljb7ZScuYRE

The fact of the matter is that their record outside of China and in non-sanda-rules fights is not very good.
Shootboxing has very comparable rules to sanshou, it is an international competition (so no country vs country bs) yet there has never been a Chinese S-Cup champion. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoot_boxing) The best China has ever done is runner up.
They don't do all that well in K-1 or full muay thai rules.

I'm not going to say the Chinese fighters are cr@p, coz they're not.
They can be pretty good.

I'm just tired of this "us vs them" superiority cr@p.
They've won enough times to prove their style is viable full contact.
They've lost enough times to show that they ain't invincible.
Any attempt at furthering the argument that somehow sanda is magically superior to muay thai, dutch kickboxing, japanese kickboxing, shootboxing, draka, mma, etc etc etc is just silly and buying into propaganda.
At this point, if a fighter's better than his opponent, he'll win, if not, he'll lose.

The problems most muay thai folks have with sanda is with chinese rules & judging.
Sometimes the fighters agree to the handicap & just go for a payday; other times, rules get changed on the spot and really screw over the Thais.
The fact that Chinese can score off of any throw (apparently even sacrifice throws), and the Thai fighters can't knee the Chinese fighters in the face tends to make most muay thai fans completely disregard those competitions. I mean when the ref gives the Chinese fighter an extra 5 seconds of clinch time so he can complete a throw, and as soon as the Thai fighter has the chinese fighter in bad position to start eating knees the ref jumps in to break it up, you can't really take that kind of competition seriously.

EDIT: After a certain point the Chinese have just made themselves look bad. You can say Thailand does it too, but it's not like a foreigner has never won in Thailand (there have been foreign stadium champions going way back). Thailand is certainly not known for the complete snow jobs, like the Chinese. It's almost like every fight's to the level of K1-max protecting Masato.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Who are the elite of Sanshou in China right now? and how would they fair vs the likes of Buakaw and others?

[lkfmdc]

The problems most muay thai folks have with sanda is with chinese rules & judging.



There are quite a LOT of Muay Thai people who just can't accept that any other martial arts tradition produces fighters. We refer to them as "Muay Thai nazis" and they do indeed exist

As corrupt as some of the Thailand vs China things have been, there have been indeed times when the San Da figher was better (and/ or KO'ed his opponent). A KO is pretty much the plainest most direct win you can have, yet we hear moans and excuses from the Muay Thai community all the time

Tons of Muay Thai guys have assumed that when they fight us they are fighting some tag american KB school, they were in for disappointment

[Pork Chop]

Let me just put my statement in perspective.
I'm mainly referring to those events whose results are touted as proof of sanda's superiority when closer inspection of the video reveals that it wasn't domination.

The guy (liu ceng ceng) that knocked out nonsai is the same guy that knocked out lamsongkrom chuwattana. as fluke-y as both KOes looked, dude's gotta have something in order to be able to drop 2 big name fighters like that. Couldn't see his fight with Wehad, as the video wouldn't load, but curious to see how he did.

You've known me for a long time. I'm not a muay thai nazi. I got my start in kung fu and then went sanda/sanshou until my coach stopped showing up altogether. Sanda/sanshou is the only teaching certification i have actually.

On one hand, I use a lot of the footwork, distancing strategies, kick catches, dumps, and even some of the combos from sanshou. But yah, that point fighting style that even some of the pros use is really not my thing.

I like guys that do things differently. My favorite fighter of all time is probably Andy Hug, and there's no way you'd confuse him with a 'typical muay thai guy'. I'm a huge fan of Japanese & Dutch styles of kickboxing, which are different than pure muay thai.

I agree with you that style nazis are annoying. In this case, I'm annoyed with the Chinese sanda nazis that are trying to use tournaments that are a mix of good fights & shady fights as proof of anything.

I have a lot of respect for the thais that step up and fight anybody anywhere (albeit if some of those appearances are for a paycheck).
I respect the Chinese that have taken fights out of their comfort zone as well.
I tried to post clips in my post that showed them winning as well as losing.
You guys, Boston, and San Jose fought in any format you could and that was awesome.

I can see where other gyms might underestimate you guys though.
In a lot of the clips I posted there were pro sanda guys fighting the exact, amateur point style that you, yourself said you were annoyed with.
so maybe you could see why they would assume that a US rep of the style would fight the same way.

Those sanda events would be doing a lot of pr work for sanda fighters if they appeared to be more on the up and up. if the chinese judges actually let the Thais have some of the close fights; heck, even if the Thais could win all the ones where they were clearly dominating, it would do a lot. But the PRC refuses to show an event that makes the Chinese look bad and in so doing, they make themselves look worse.

[Pork Chop]

Who are the elite of Sanshou in China right now? and how would they fair vs the likes of Buakaw and others?

ask and you shall receive
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIKHpPeaws0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ljb7ZScuYRE

[sanjuro_ronin]

Buakaw seemed to adjust very nicely to the grabbing and throwing.

[HumbleWCGuy]

As I said, this might be ethnocentric on the part of the Chinese, but I don't think that they care about competing outside of SS rules. I think that it is definitely ethnocentric on our parts to assume that K1 is the pinnacle of fighting success in kickboxing. Thais would probably disagree calling it a sloppy knock-off of MT.

[Pork Chop]

As I said, this might be ethnocentric on the part of the Chinese, but I don't think that they care about competing outside of SS rules. I think that it is definitely ethnocentric on our parts to assume that K1 is the pinnacle of fighting success in kickboxing. Thais would probably disagree calling it a sloppy knock-off of MT.

i'm a k1 fan, but nowhere did i say that it was the pinnacle of fighting.

i guess you missed the point where i said that they haven't done well in shootboxing either.

in fact, the last (only) time China fought full rules muay thai was the last time that muay thai crushed them (pretty sure it was at the king's cup) though one or two individuals had good performances.

the chinese also refuse to fight in the other major international stand-up fighting event, with fighters from all over the world (every continent represented) and shows all over Europe, the Amsterdam-based It's Showtime.

say what you want about K1 (and defacto It's Showtime), but it's a stand-up fighting format that's good enough for boxers, japanese kickboxers, dutch kickboxers, japanese karateka, tae kwon do-ists, american kickboxers, mma guys, and basically every other striking-based martial art out there. If the other 3 billion people in the world are gathering together to do something, maybe they're not the ones being jingoistic and ethnocentric. that being said, props to the chinese sanda guys who've taken a stab at it; but i laugh at the suggestion that the only reason they haven't "dominated" like they've "dominated" the events inside of china is because they don't care.

This (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5ZHw0Awn_s) is what happens when a muay thai legend takes a san shou fight last minute at the asia games.

The guy I really want to see in sanda is the guy in blue (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-aBBlYlVCU), the old guy in red is a hall of famer that fought dekkers way back.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Care to add some references?

[Pork Chop]

Care to add some references?

actually i was quoting someone off of the k1-fans forum who said it was King's Cup event in 2002 put on by onesongchai and that the chinese lost 4 to 1.
as far as finding links backing that up...
lkfmdc had a running article on the chinese vs thailand series before he changed his site.
that crane50megs.com guy had a HUGE history between the two, but his site's since been labeled malware, so can't get to his site anymore.
the onesongchai website probably has something about it but it's all in Thai.
muaythaionline.org has event listings going back to 2000, but none of the Thailand vs China events (which goes to show what a priority it is for most muay thai folks).
Otherwise, I can't find much on it, but i know for sure there was at least one event where the chinese as a whole lost.
I'm sure the info's out there.

I'm more curious if you can find any links of mainland Chinese Sanda fighters fighting full rules muay thai and being successful.

Wish Bao Ligao fought outside of china, that dude would be an instant star in Europe, Japan, or Thailand. EDIT: forgot Bao DID fight in Bangkok in 2003 and scored a KO. love that guy. but i dont know how the rest of the 2003 event went either.

[HumbleWCGuy]

One thing that I will concede is that I think that amateur SS is ridiculous without knee strikes. I think that it hurts the pros who come up in it. The football style tackles just seem to get people in trouble.

[sanjuro_ronin]

This (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5ZHw0Awn_s) is what happens when a muay thai legend takes a san shou fight last minute at the asia games.

The guy I really want to see in sanda is the guy in blue (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-aBBlYlVCU), the old guy in red is a hall of famer that fought dekkers way back.

**** !!!
Power, enough said !

[HumbleWCGuy]

**** !!!
Power, enough said !

Pro MT against amateur SS.

[Sardinkahnikov]

**** !!!
Power, enough said !

0:21 - Guy in black lost all his dignity. Very humiliating. :eek:

[sanjuro_ronin]

Pro MT against amateur SS.

Like I said, Power, enough said.

[Frost]

just would like to contribute
recent sanda:
3/19
http://player.youku.com/player.php/sid/XMTU5MDg5ODI0/v.swf
http://player.youku.com/player.php/sid/XMTU5MDkyMDIw/v.swf
http://player.youku.com/player.php/sid/XMTU5MTA4MjYw/v.swf
3/20
http://player.youku.com/player.php/sid/XMTU5MzI1MjE2/v.swf
http://player.youku.com/player.php/sid/XMTU5MzI2OTI0/v.swf
http://player.youku.com/player.php/sid/XMTU5MzM0MzI4/v.swf
3/21
http://player.youku.com/player.php/sid/XMTU5NTYyMDMy/v.swf
http://player.youku.com/player.php/sid/XMTU5NTY1NTI4/v.swf
http://player.youku.com/player.php/sid/XMTU5NTcwMjA4/v.swf
http://player.youku.com/player.php/sid/XMTU5NTc1NDg0/v.swf

The only guy I had heard of was Nonsai, the guy that got KOed the first day and fought again 2 days later (paycheck much?); back in January he out-pointed Dzhabar from Contender Asia, he also had a fight in canada the week before, and April 10th he's fighting again in the netherlands. Gotta stink to be kicking a guy's azz THAT bad for THAT long and get caught by a right hand outta NOWHERE. At least his second fight went the distance. Fighter Wehad fought 3 times in 3 days, winning the first by decision. Karuehard looked like he dislocated his shoulder, it was an injury that would probably otherwise been called a "no contest".

san da fighters fighting internationally:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Se7ljLqh_wU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKd-mB2vIdI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQILMQBeI7E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-yEev5tbts
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9nQmr4Gw1o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQevUhApRKQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpIi-FHqaH0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLB3MUxJcHE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8ndrVscUDo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lW_ABFpfLlE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pY1ydTZJ_RE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7zKz9wbDF4&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-irmsV2JfI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKnEfpLOoXI&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZjsUZsJVFw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIKHpPeaws0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ljb7ZScuYRE

The fact of the matter is that their record outside of China and in non-sanda-rules fights is not very good.
Shootboxing has very comparable rules to sanshou, it is an international competition (so no country vs country bs) yet there has never been a S-Cup champion. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoot_boxing) The best China has ever done is runner up.
They don't do all that well in K-1 or full muay thai rules.

I'm not going to say the Chinese fighters are cr@p, coz they're not.
They can be pretty good.

I'm just tired of this "us vs them" superiority cr@p.
They've won enough times to prove their style is viable full contact.
They've lost enough times to show that they ain't invincible.
Any attempt at furthering the argument that somehow sanda is magically superior to muay thai, dutch kickboxing, japanese kickboxing, shootboxing, draka, mma, etc etc etc is just silly and buying into propaganda.
At this point, if a fighter's better than his opponent, he'll win, if not, he'll lose.

The problems most muay thai folks have with sanda is with chinese rules & judging.
Sometimes the fighters agree to the handicap & just go for a payday; other times, rules get changed on the spot and really screw over the Thais.
The fact that Chinese can score off of any throw (apparently even sacrifice throws), and the Thai fighters can't knee the Chinese fighters in the face tends to make most muay thai fans completely disregard those competitions. I mean when the ref gives the Chinese fighter an extra 5 seconds of clinch time so he can complete a throw, and as soon as the Thai fighter has the chinese fighter in bad position to start eating knees the ref jumps in to break it up, you can't really take that kind of competition seriously.

EDIT: After a certain point the Chinese have just made themselves look bad. You can say Thailand does it too, but it's not like a foreigner has never won in Thailand (there have been foreign stadium champions going way back). Thailand is certainly not known for the complete snow jobs, like the Chinese. It's almost like every fight's to the level of K1-max protecting Masato.

Thanks for showing up pork I knew you had spent a lot of time looking at these fights and appreciate your fair-minded analysis of the situation

[Pork Chop]

Thanks for showing up pork I knew you had spent a lot of time looking at these fights and appreciate your fair-minded analysis of the situation

just found out about this new kung fu king promotion that china's doing (thanks tunks).
looks a lot more legit and should really increase the state of the game.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7oMKnFcnp0