Qigong and/Vs Modern Strength training

[sanjuro_ronin]

As I was reading a book yesterday about Qigong, I noticed a few misconceptions there about modern/conventional Strength training ( from here on to be refered to as ST).
The author mentioned that tensing during External Qigong would cause the muscles to enlarge and that is bad because it stagnates Chi and makes a person to heavy and too slow.
Ok, I know that, by this time now, we have dispelled the myth of ST makes a person slow.
ST is NOT bodybuilding, bodybuilding is A method of ST a method designed not so much to build strength ( strength is a by product) but to build the body (Hypertrophy).
Sprinters do ST, are they slow?
Gynmast do ST, are they slow?
Every explosive athlete does ST, are they slow?
No on all accounts.
So, lets forget that part for now.
The issue that increased muscle mass makes one slow is quite incorrect.
Again, look at sprinters.
Nor does ST make one less flexible, look at gymnasts and on a more extreme note, the study was done years ago in which they measured the flexibility of olympic athletes and, aside from gymnasts, the most flexible were the powerlifters ( olympic lifters).
So, lets repeat for a moment shall we?
ST does NOT make one slow or inflexible and added mass ( which comes from diet far more than ST) does not equal losing speed.
OK?
Good.
Next part.

[sanjuro_ronin]

In regards to "big muscles" and "mass" stagnating chi ( by the way, tensing a muscle during qigong will NOT make the muscle bigger):
This same author pointed put the studies have shown that "chi" can be viewed as the bodies bioeletical field, he noted that studies show that the chi meridian points show a centralization of this bioelectricity.
So, using the authors own view I suggest that "big muscles" stagnating chi makes no sense.
Big muscles are mostly water, all muscles are mostly water and water is VERY conductive.
The more water you have in your body, the more freely electricity or bioelectricity passes through it.

He also mentions the other misconception that, if you stop exercising, your muscles will turn into fat.
Muscles don't turn into ANYTHING other than what they are, they may becomes smaller ( or bigger) but they do NOT turn into fat.

As I read this book though, putting these glaring misconceptions aside, I did wonder about qigong VS ST in regards to not just MA performace, but health in general.

Let us explore that.

[Dale Dugas]

As my teacher says: " There is nothing wrong with being strong."

Funny that many famous teachers did all manner of both strength training as well as qi gong as part of the whole body training.

Anyone who says all you have to do is sit down and meditate is not thinking with their total amount of brain power.

You work with long heavy weapons as we do in Baguazhang, you are strength training.

You put on a weight vest and walk circles or linear patterns, you are strength training.

anyone on this board think you do not have to ST?

I can see where people feel they do not have to train Qi Gong, but lets see about the ST.

[sanjuro_ronin]

In the past, nothing was more crucial than aerobic capacity.
That has changed considerably over the last few decades.
Most of us need anerobic capcity more than aerobic ( we will run to the BUS more times than we will run to work because we missed the bus) and we also need strength on a routnine basis, everything we do involves strength.
Picking up the kids, getting out of bed or a chair, lifting something, pushing or pulling something, groceries, etc, etc.
Everything needs strength, but there is more to that too.
Our bones NEED load bearing exercises to get stronger, especially women.

Almost all ST is summed up by this:
Progressive resistence training

This means that we, progressively, increase the amount of weight/resistence on a given exercise so as to make your muscles adapt to the extra work load, making them stronger.
The strength can be "pure" strength ( the ability to lift something heavy) or endurance strength ( the ability to life something for a prolonged period of time)

Again, mass increase is based more on diet than on anything else ( you get bigger by getting bigger ie: eating more).

The issue is that load bearing exercises strengthen our bones too, as our body adaptst to the progressive loads we put on it, the muscles, tendons and bones get stronger and they do this progressively and verifiably.

[Dale Dugas]

spot on as always brother!

Doing both ST and QG will make you healthier, happier and stronger than someone who does not.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Now, certain qigong methods do indeed strengthen our bones, pols standing is a load bearing exercise and as such, our bones will get stronger,a s will our muscles, by doing it.
Obviously doing stance work does the same thing.
The degree is less and the time frame is more obviously but there are some advantages to them - no need for equipment, can be done anywhere, less intimidating for some than weight training, etc.
The Iron wire from Hung kuen / gar, is another example a Qigong exercise with many health benefits and one that also does increase our strength and strengthen our bones.
Now, those qigong exercises mentioned don't do much for anerobic conditoning obviously and, to be truthful, I don't now of any qigong that does work anaerobic conditioning.
And in terms of progressive resistence, standing qigong as its limits.
The Iron wire's strength developing potential is stricktly dependent on HOW one does the IW and to the degree of isokinetic tension one uses.

Which does bring us back to the issue of tension in the muscles and how this is viewed in terms of Qigong.

[sanjuro_ronin]

spot on as always brother!

Doing both ST and QG will make you healthier, happier and stronger than someone who does not.

Yeah, common sense, I know, but these misconceptions I noted are still being thrown around there, as I am sure you knwo too.
The author of the book I was reading was Yang Jwing Ming.

[Dale Dugas]

you cannot get rid of tension fully in any muscles during movement.

We will always have tension in the system if we are upright and moving.

More so if you are lifting, moving, pushing anything that is heavy.

what I try to instill in my students is the fact that you want to try and have the least amount of tension in the system without being a puddle of human on the floor.

Learn to relax or Sung as its termed in TCMA, and have the goldlilocks theory of tension which is just enough/just right to maintain balance.

[sanjuro_ronin]

you cannot get rid of tension fully in any muscles during movement.

We will always have tension in the system if we are upright and moving.

More so if you are lifting, moving, pushing anything that is heavy.

what I try to instill in my students is the fact that you want to try and have the least amount of tension in the system without being a puddle of human on the floor.

Learn to relax or Sung as its termed in TCMA, and have the goldlilocks theory of tension which is just enough/just right to maintain balance.

Indeed, but what are we developing by doing that?
It's not strength though, it's relaxation and proper alignment.
Yes?

[Dale Dugas]

not only alignment but proper use of the body/muscles/structure so that you are using the entire body. Whole Body usage, whole body power.

Hence doing things slow until the body can create an actual neuron for that movement, stance, etc and you can then replicate it over and over when needed.

ST is to train the external systems and create the machine, QG is then the internal system to help get the person to this state where they can use it more efficiently and with less waste.

[sanjuro_ronin]

not only alignment but proper use of the body/muscles/structure so that you are using the entire body. Whole Body usage, whole body power.

Hence doing things slow until the body can create an actual neuron for that movement, stance, etc and you can then replicate it over and over when needed.

ST is to train the external systems and create the machine, QG is then the internal system to help get the person to this state where they can use it more efficiently and with less waste.

And that definition I, and probably everyone else, is totally fine with.
But I have heard claims that Qigong strengthens the body COMPARABLY ( if not better) than ST, that it strengthens the muscles and tendons and bones "just as well if not better".

Lets look at the muscle, the only way it is strengthen is by contraction, either concentric ( shortening ie: lifting), eccentric ( lengthening ie:lowering) or isometrically ( stationary tension at a given point).
All those involve tension of some sort and the greater the effort the greater the tension the greater to strengthen being used and the greater the muscle involvement.
Tension being the key.
Tension can be prolonged or explosive, but it is always there.

The tendons ( what attaches the muscle to the bone) are strengthen during these very same processes and can't be strenthened any other way.

As for bones, they adapt to the stress put on them, from every day stress, to ballistic stress to stationary stress, they grow stronger by getting denser to deal with the increased demands put on them, but you do have to increase the demand put on them.

[CFT]

anyone on this board think you do not have to ST?I'm sure there are a few, one in particular springs to mind. I'm sure you know who (not YouKnowWho).

[Dale Dugas]

please do not bring up anyone who is either subhuman or net ghosts.

they have no place here nor anyone for that matter.

[SAAMAG]

Ok, I know that, by this time now, we have dispelled the myth of ST makes a person slow.
Having larger muscles doesn't make someone slow. This is obvious in many examples. That said, it is true that having a larger mass requires that someone have the power to move that mass. If they do not have sufficient power, than they will be slower. This is usally indicitive of a "big guy" who DOESN'T have the muscle or isn't in shape to move his greater mass.

The other point I think is that if one flexes during any movement -- they will do that movement slower and with less power. E.G. if you punch and flex through the entire motion, your punch will be slow and weak. Perhaps that's what the author is trying to say?!



In regards to "big muscles" and "mass" stagnating chi ( by the way, tensing a muscle during qigong will NOT make the muscle bigger):
Here's an excerpt of a quick explanation on medicinenet.com:

What makes your muscles look bigger when you flex them, when you "make a muscle" with your biceps, for example?

Muscle cells contain long strands of protein lying next to each other. When you want your muscles to move, your brain signals your nerves to stimulate them. A chemical reaction in your muscles follows, causing the long strands of protein to slide toward and over each other, shortening the length of your muscle cells. When you "make a muscle" and you see your muscle bunch up and bulge, you are actually watching it shorten as the protein strands slide over each other.

When you do challenging muscle-building exercises on a regular basis, the bundles of protein strands inside your muscle cells grow bigger. And that's how your muscles get bigger. It's just that simple.



This same author pointed put the studies have shown that "chi" can be viewed as the bodies bioeletical field, he noted that studies show that the chi meridian points show a centralization of this bioelectricity.
So, using the authors own view I suggest that "big muscles" stagnating chi makes no sense.
Big muscles are mostly water, all muscles are mostly water and water is VERY conductive.
The more water you have in your body, the more freely electricity or bioelectricity passes through it.
Electricity flows through water. Simple and correct. But I think perhaps the author's descriptor may not be spot on. No one knows what the hell chi is. Even people that practice chi gung. That have an idea...a theory on what is it...but they do not know. So some people try to give a scientific descriptor to it, like "kinetic energy", or "bioelectric energy", or more towards the literal translation "air".

Practicing chi gung helps one to find their mental center, their state of no-mind. From there they can better learn to use the mind to direct and enchance to body. For example directing the body to do something while being oblivious to the obstacle can increase the body's ability to achieve that end amidst adversity. I.E. if I'm trying to push my arm towards something, and you're trying to stop it, a combination of proper structure/rooting and intent can prove successful where just trying to muscle through it would not be.

The way it was explained to me was that the mind naturally works from imagery, the whole idea of words being internal chatter was the byproduct of a learned mechanism -- like speech and writing. We internalize our outward communication and have forgotten the natural way that our mind works. So meditation and imagery helps in many ways. It's seen in western mediicine as well where people will get surgeries and dental work by going in deep meditation states, or where people will use imagery to help a wound heal in a decreased timeframe (nothing extraordinary mind you--just faster than not concentrating on it).



He also mentions the other misconception that, if you stop exercising, your muscles will turn into fat.
Muscles don't turn into ANYTHING other than what they are, they may becomes smaller ( or bigger) but they do NOT turn into fat.
Yea...that's wrong in a literal sense. I think though that's more a figure of speech that's gotten passed down....if you continue to eat like you're bodybuilding, and don't bodybuild, you're going to get fat. The muscle doesn't turn into fat, but your body will no longer buiild muscle but will accumulate fat.

.....

To your last point...from a health perspective, I think chi gung is very beneficial--based merely on my own experiences and those experiences of the many people that practice tai chi on a daily basis. Like Yoga and similar exercises, meditation and breathing exercises combined with non-impacting movements that promote felxibility and strength would always be good for you.

It promotes mental health, decreases stress levels, and also stands to improve body conditioning through its varied methods whether that be in stances and positions, or moving stances.

[dirtyrat]

Yang, Jwing-Ming's books are not easy to understand at times. I feel that a lot of his books could be condensed quite a bit by taking out the filler material.

I don't think he's discouraging ST. I do believe he thinks ST in the case of a bodybuilder is counterproductive for martial artists. In one of his Chin Na books, he advocates ST that builds both speed and strength at the same time.

With qigong, I believe the intent/goal is the most important factor. A lot of people seem to think that ST is about building large muscles. Strength in some sense is relative. The strength of a Bodybuilder is different from that of a gymnast for example.

[TaichiMantis]

I like dynamic loadbearing exercises. Here are some good shuijiao training vids...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KJG0tFJe4g

http://www.youtube.com/user/ashwix#p/u/40/5PbNpaiIi9I

http://www.youtube.com/user/ashwix#p/u/34/W3eb740pyiE

http://www.youtube.com/user/ashwix#p/u/39/ysQTBE5AbnA

[goju]

goju ryu is a qigong and weight heavy martial art so i never had any problems or conflicting feelings doing both

i dont believe size slows you down either

the person who taught me tkd, and goju could move extremely fast and still dospinning kicks, jumping kicks etcetc and he was a 280 pound body builder at five foot ten

[uki]

i find that applying martial applicability to natural movement works best - in essence this amounts to the hua jing level of moving... totally relaxed, effortless, and fluid motions that come naturally without thought; such motions contain great force simply because the entire body is moving as a sub-conciously connected unit - all strikes would have the entire weight of the body multiplied by the speed of the movement, in which case it really does not amount to the strength of the body, but rather the simple physics of mass and velocity. :D

i do qigong with the sole intention of extracting energy from the stars, the sun, the moon(indirectly thru reflective surfaces), the ground, air, and all of nature... this energy enters me and purifies me. simple enough... i could dwell and ponder the many intricate and complex methods developed by countless numbers of people over thru the ages OR i could be simply content with what i have discovered to work for myself.

considering that we are nothing more than a bunch of atoms compacted together in different combinations and denseness, what is strength??? we are all ultimately light(energy), so what is physical strength?? i believe our physical bodies, personalities, and creativity is nothing more than a manifestation of our inherent energy... what kind of energy are you?? perhaps stagnant chi is nothing more than explaining a mental construct that is effectively hindering your self-expression?? life is an artform, if your energy is weak, your life drawing will look like it was drawn by a 4 year old and a few crayons. :p

[Eugene]

maybe a silly question, but could one imagine weight, and by this way, strengthen the muscles ?

[IronWeasel]

maybe a silly question, but could one imagine weight, and by this way, strengthen the muscles ?



Of course. But you would only strengten the imaginary muscles.

Then when you imagine that you're fighting, you will crush your opponent!

[IronWeasel]

Reading back through some old threads, it seems that many people seem to equate ST to the body building style of hypertrophy. It's when people imagine resistance training, they immediately think of Mr. Olympia.

In my experience, training for hypertropy reduced my flexiblility. Especially after a heavy lift, when my muscles are pumped. 'Extreme stretching' as it's referred to helped somewhat.

The flexibility decrease wasn't much of an issue, until I was grappling (the evening after a morning lift), and my range of motion was limited enough that I got my arm wrapped around my own head by my opponent. :)

[Frost]

maybe a silly question, but could one imagine weight, and by this way, strengthen the muscles ?

depends how you imagine it, stress is stress and the body responds to it accordingly, if you imagine you are pushing a weight away and tense and push accordingly then your body will respond and grow (it will essentially be a dynamic strengthening exercise) but the thing is you can't regulate how much weight you are moving its hit and miss... also after a while you need more stress that what your body can generate you need external loading to accomplish anything after this point

[taai gihk yahn]

maybe a silly question, but could one imagine weight, and by this way, strengthen the muscles ?

actually, you can do this; you can also increase range of motion;

two tests:

Flexibility: sit on the floor and do a hamstring stretch to each side (however you do that: hurdlers, in a split, whatever); find the side that is the more flexible; then mentally imagine that you are stretching to that side (yes, the easy one); maintain this for up to 90 sec.; then re-test your flexibility to the more limited side and see the difference;

Strength: do a single leg step-up on one leg than on the other; see which side it is easier on (if u are in good shape to begin with, it may need to be a very large step-up, e.g. - 36", to get a difference between sides); when you have figured out which side is the easier one, stand somewhere and mentally imagine yourself blasting out 2 sets of 12 reps on that side; then, go try it again "for real" and see what the difference is on the harder side

I should not that this is not the usual way to go about getting these changes, typically it's done by actually stretching to / exercising the easy side to see the changes on the tighter / weaker side; the imagery exercise is just taking it another step further into the realm of possibilities;

if you are curious about how / why this works (there is actually a solid body of reputable neurophysiological research backing it up) and / or want to see some pretty cool "instant" changes in people with significant strength and flexibility loss, check out this website: www.totalmotionrelease.com

the youtube page
http://www.youtube.com/user/totalmotionrelease

[Scott R. Brown]

I works with skills too. There was a test years about with guys imagining free throws. As I recall, it isn't quite as beneficial as actually performing the action, but it is still a benefit!

[taai gihk yahn]

I works with skills too. There was a test years about with guys imagining free throws. As I recall, it isn't quite as beneficial as actually performing the action, but it is still a benefit!

I seem to recall that the athletes imagining basketball free throws did as well or even better than athletes actually practicing them!

you can also improve your non-dominant side by hyper-stimulating the dominant - so like throwing a baseball, you would take a heavier ball and really blast out a bunch of reps throwing as far and as hard as you can with the dominant side, and seeing how the non-dominant side improves significantly

it also works if you are gay, you imagine being even gayer, and it happens!

[Scott R. Brown]

it also works if you are gay, you imagine being even gayer, and it happens!

I suppose we should ask an expert like extrajoseph about that!

[Eugene]

ty Frost and taai gihk yahn, good things to try and read

[taai gihk yahn]

ty Frost and taai gihk yahn, good things to try and read

hopefully this time your queries won't result in a 5 page long flame war! ;)

[taai gihk yahn]

I suppose we should ask an expert like extrajoseph about that!
he would appear to be the "go-to-guy" for that sort of thing at this point...

[Scott R. Brown]

ty Frost and taai gihk yahn, good things to try and read

Hey...what am I....chopped liver???

The free throw thing was ME!!!

[YouKnowWho]

The difference between the modern strength training (MST) and the traditional strength training (TST) is the MST separate the strength training and combat skill training. The TST combines both strength training and combat skill training into one. In TST, you decide what skill that you want to develop, you then decide what kind of training that will be needed to enhance your skill. In MST, when you build your big muscle, you are not thinking about combat skill at that moment. The difference is "indirect (for MST)" vs. "direct (for TST)".

[uki]

The difference between the modern strength training (MST) and the traditional strength training (TST) is the MST separate the strength training and combat skill training. The TST combines both strength training and combat skill training into one. In TST, you decide what skill that you want to develop, you then decide what kind of training that will be needed to enhance your skill. In MST, when you build your big muscle, you are not thinking about combat skill at that moment. The difference is "indirect (for MST)" vs. "direct (for TST)".now that is some true sh!t right there. well said. :)

[Hendrik]

IMHO,


1, the issue here is lots people including the so called grandmaster writting books without even has attainment. Thus, they are speculating instead of going to their train body and just describe what it is when it comes to Qigong. If we follow this type of stuffs we are actually getting ourself into trouble.


2, Big muscle got nothing to do with Qi Stagnation. look at our body, take the arm, there is the Yin path which has less muscle and Yan part which has more muscle. and the Qi flow perfectly well with both conditions.


3, The reason Qigong needs to totally let go of applying one more ounce of strenght while practicing it is not about against strenght; but while open up the path/part of the body, one needs to really loose up that area/path and let it expand.

If strenght are use in approprietly then the part/path needs to be "open up" end up become a "close" blind spot. This will hinderance the training of that area and it will not going in deep into the body/internal organs but limit its penetration; and to the worse the area got stuck or latch or hold on which cause Qi stagnation.

Thus, Qigong training needs to be as lite as possible to avoid any unneccesary issue.


4, as for using Strenght, walking is using strenght, kicking is using strenght. The key is after the Qigong training the way of how to use strenght has been transform.



5, also while practicing without using strenght and the heart beat is at relax state, the body Qi is almost non dissipative or even preserve and growing. This is very different then the practice which is dissipative or using strenght in a more rigid way in general.




6, as a comparison, say the ibuki and the Six healing sound. Ibuki is using strenght and force the body in a holding and discharging way to exercise the body. and based on the exercising, one strenghting the body.

While six healing sound training is to loose and expand everything and let the nature taking its own path, lead the qi to flow , balance, and grow, and nuture deep into the internal organs, while whispering the sound with no voice to directly triggle different internal organs.

One certainly can do Ibuki to strenghten one's body, provided the body is healty and the qi is adequate.

However, if the person got heavier internal injury such as in liver, heart, kidney....etc due to improper training or injury in fighting or stress or food.

Then Ibuki is no longer a good thing to practice because it will contribute to more damage due to forcing the body which already in an imbalance and lack of qi state.

So, six healing sound is used here to rebuild the body. The ancient include those in Shao Lin, actually use the six healing sound to clear out the body internal injury.



So, one needs to know what is one doing. Again, the best thing is get a sifu who knows the stuffs. Reading books are just problematic.

Good books from the ancient masters are good only for those who already have the attainment and need further direction. that is not everyone's piece of cake.





An analogy is watching a hiking movie and actually going hiking. those who mistakenly thinking they know how to hike because they watches some hiking movies is problematic.

In those cases, the movie watching expert might turn around asking why do one needs walking sticks? Just hike. (according to the movies he watches)

Well, sitting in the sofa watching movie is a different thing when one needs to use one's legs to hike. while in real life, one's legs might needs some aid due to it is not in the good condition to hike....etc. and the movie watching expert dont have a clue on real life.

So, dont get yourself into trouble, avoid those movies watcher or books reader experts
Sure some movies watcher expert will claim --- according to their direct experience you are wrong.

Well, what the movie watcher dont know is their so called direct experience comes from sitting on their a$$ and fantasy. and those type of experience is the worse to mislead people. But sure, those who has hike before right the way avoid these experts because these experts are talking nonsense.



Just 2 cents to share.

[Frost]

The difference between the modern strength training (MST) and the traditional strength training (TST) is the MST separate the strength training and combat skill training. The TST combines both strength training and combat skill training into one. In TST, you decide what skill that you want to develop, you then decide what kind of training that will be needed to enhance your skill. In MST, when you build your big muscle, you are not thinking about combat skill at that moment. The difference is "indirect (for MST)" vs. "direct (for TST)".

not really the functional guys like to develop strength specifically for the skills invloved (SAID principle), JC santana using the big bands for throws for example, or using heavy dummies for throwing practise, or using cables for punching practise...the list goes on and on :rolleyes:

other coaches prefer to develop general strength first and then make that sports specific (afterall you can get alot stronger deadlifting and powercleaning than you can do simply mimicing a sports performace movement with added resistance). No modern strength coach just goes out to develop big muscles you are developing the CNS and the muscle fibers to make them lift more weight with an eye to being able to throw someone more explosively or hit them harder, you then convert this new found strength into sports specific strength through sparring and actually doing your sport

[David Jamieson]

I think the difference between body building and strength training needs to be clearly understood.

modern strength training is not all body building and body building is not about functional strength development but rather it is about sculpting the body to suit a particular look.

so, mst can be fully compatible with ones martial arts development. Especially those regimens that focus on total body strength and task specific strength development.

:)

[Scott R. Brown]

It might even be fair to say that those of us on this board who perform adjunct strength training know more about Qigong than those here who do strictly Qigong know about modern strength training methods!:rolleyes:

[TAO YIN]

Strength training won't make you as fast as Qi Gong will usually...

Both are awesome; both are strength training!

[Scott R. Brown]

Strength training won't make you as fast as Qi Gong will usually...

Both are awesome; both are strength training!

Anyone who trains seriously knows that speed training is NOT strength training. Although there is also speed-strength training!

[uki]

Anyone who trains seriously knows that speed training is NOT strength training. Although there is also speed-strength training!iron ball juggling is an excellent way to develop speed while weight training at the same time. :)

[Frost]

Strength training won't make you as fast as Qi Gong will usually...

Both are awesome; both are strength training!

yes it will, it will make you faster, hence most sprinetrs do strength training along with technique training and not qi gong :)

[uki]

yes it will, it will make you faster, hence most sprinetrs do strength training along with technique training and not qi gongperhaps, but sprinters don't have the lung gom either. :p

[Scott R. Brown]

iron ball juggling is an excellent way to develop speed while weight training at the same time. :)

I get the feeling you are biased towards juggling!:p

[sanjuro_ronin]

The difference between the modern strength training (MST) and the traditional strength training (TST) is the MST separate the strength training and combat skill training. The TST combines both strength training and combat skill training into one. In TST, you decide what skill that you want to develop, you then decide what kind of training that will be needed to enhance your skill. In MST, when you build your big muscle, you are not thinking about combat skill at that moment. The difference is "indirect (for MST)" vs. "direct (for TST)".

Actually, that is not correct.
Sport specific strength building is used by every athelete.
The difference is that it has been shown that DOING sport specific movements with weights is NOT as benefitial as doing a general strengthening regime to strenght the bodys muscles and THEN doing sport specific moves after those muscles have been strengthened.
And building big muscles is only ONE very small part of ST and not one that most athletes use anyway.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Strong muscles = strong muscles which = faster muscles and muscles that are less suceptible to injury also.

There really is NO reason NOT to do both Qigong and MST, truly.

[Frost]

Actually, that is not correct.
Sport specific strength building is used by every athelete.
The difference is that it has been shown that DOING sport specific movements with weights is NOT as benefitial as doing a general strengthening regime to strenght the bodys muscles and THEN doing sport specific moves after those muscles have been strengthened.
And building big muscles is only ONE very small part of ST and not one that most athletes use anyway.

i said this!

[sanjuro_ronin]

i said this!

And it was worth repeating, LOL !
:D

[Scott R. Brown]

And building big muscles is only ONE very small part of ST and not one that most athletes use anyway.

And in many cases building stronger muscles without adding unnecessary size is the preference!

[Frost]

And in many cases building stronger muscles without adding unnecessary size is the preference!

true but a number of athletes not in a weight class sport (or in the middle of their weight class) will look to add muscle to their frame for reasons like reducing the risk of injury or simply increasing body mass. getting bigger is not always a bad thing.

[Scott R. Brown]

In MOST sports there is a point of diminishing returns for size, thus aerobic athletes are lean for a reason, as well as gymnasts, Very few athletes function as efficiency with unlimited size. While there is nearly no limit to the benefits of strength, except when its brings with it inefficient size for the functional needs of the athlete!

[sanjuro_ronin]

And in many cases building stronger muscles without adding unnecessary size is the preference!

Most of the athletes that do ST, do it for strength with minimal or no size increase.
Its actually pretty easy to build strength with minimal size increase.
Low reps with heavy weights, low volume with minimal or no hypertrophy work.
I do laugh at people when they see they don't do weights because they don't wanna look like a bodybuilder !
That's like a guy saying he doesn't run because he doesn't wanna break the world record, LOL !
The fact is, you go to any gym and you see very few bodybuilders (though you will find many that think they are !).
We all know that guy, the guy that does weights for a few weeks and thinks he is so buff he is ripping all his shirts and has arms smaller than our grandmas !

[Scott R. Brown]

Most of the athletes that do ST, do it for strength with minimal or no size increase.
Its actually pretty easy to build strength with minimal size increase.
Low reps with heavy weights, low volume with minimal or no hypertrophy work.
I do laugh at people when they see they don't do weights because they don't wanna look like a bodybuilder !
That's like a guy saying he doesn't run because he doesn't wanna break the world record, LOL !
The fact is, you go to any gym and you see very few bodybuilders (though you will find many that think they are !).
We all know that guy, the guy that does weights for a few weeks and thinks he is so buff he is ripping all his shirts and has arms smaller than our grandmas !

That is what I just said, It is Frost you need to address this too!:)

[Frost]

In MOST sports there is a point of diminishing returns for size, thus aerobic athletes are lean for a reason, as well as gymnasts, Very few athletes function as efficiency with unlimited size. While there is nearly no limit to the benefits of strength, except when its brings with it inefficient size for the functional needs of the athlete!

who said unlimited size, i said alot of athletes look to add some mass to protect themselves and to add bulk if they are on the lighter end of the weight class.

American footballers, boxer and MMA guys looking to dominate their weight catagory are some of the athletes who benefit from increased size.

size and aerobic capacity can be trained together. in the world of rugby union the average size of the backs has gone from around 150 to 160 pounds to around 200 to 220 pounds and upwards in about a decade, and the game has gotten faster harder and more arebically challanging. the guys are bigger, stronger better conditioned and hit a h8ll of a lot harder.

[Scott R. Brown]

who said unlimited size, i said alot of athletes look to add some mass to protect themselves and to add bulk if they are on the lighter end of the weight class.

American footballers, boxer and MMA guys looking to dominate their weight catagory are some of the athletes who benefit from increased size.

size and aerobic capacity can be trained together. in the world of rugby union the average size of the backs has gone from around 150 to 160 pounds to around 200 to 220 pounds and upwards in about a decade, and the game has gotten faster harder and more arebically challanging. the guys are bigger, stronger better conditioned and hit a h8ll of a lot harder.

Perhaps you did not read my original post carefully enough then:


And in many cases building stronger muscles without adding unnecessary size is the preference!

[Frost]

That is what I just said, It is Frost you need to address this too!:)

address away i said some athletes look to add size, and that you can do this without compremising aerobic capacity if you train correctly, as with all things its a trade off but in some cases adding bulk helps the athlete

[sanjuro_ronin]

There will always be SOME size, especially if the athlete has never done ST before.
But it won't be anything that will be detrimental to his/her performance.
Frost is right though, some do look to add, I know I did when I was younger and weighted only 140 and was comepting in kyokushin with no weight classes.

[uki]

I get the feeling you are biased towards juggling!it's not bias, it's applying the TMA approach of repetition in order to ingrain it into ones being... besides, new members might not have heard of my iron ball juggling yet. :p

[Scott R. Brown]

address away i said some athletes look to add size, and that you can do this without compremising aerobic capacity if you train correctly, as with all things its a trade off but in some cases adding bulk helps the athlete


There will always be SOME size, especially if the athlete has never done ST before.
But it won't be anything that will be detrimental to his/her performance.
Frost is right though, some do look to add, I know I did when I was younger and weighted only 140 and was comepting in kyokushin with no weight classes.

Well Duh!! You two are either not reading carefully enough, or reading what you want to read into my comment. so I will be more specific:

I never said anything against gaining size. There is natural law of diminishing returns for every athletic endeavor where excessive size diminishes skill and/or aerobic capacity. The emphasis is on SIZE, not strength.

You will never see a correction elite (world class) 350lb. gymnast, decathlete, cross country skier, swimmer, marathon runner, pole vaulter, high jumper, soccer player, ice skater, etc for a reason!

[sanjuro_ronin]

I never said anything against gaining size. There is natural law of diminishing returns for every athletic endeavor where excessive size diminishes skill and/or aerobic capacity. The emphasis is on SIZE, not strength.

You will never see a correction elite (world class) 350lb. gymnast, decathlete, cross country skier, swimmer, marathon runner, pole vaulter, high jumper, soccer player, ice skater, etc for a reason!

Agreed, 100%

[TAO YIN]

Frost,

Hello,

Not always... For sprinters, okay, sure...Sport specific, depends on the movement and too many other things to list here. I doubt that practicing sprinting slow would hurt a sprinter's structure, but I am not a part of that field of sports so I don't want to speculate about that.

But, go buy a wiffle ball bat and practice swinging it as fast as you can then swing a regular bat. Opposite, put weight rings on the end of the regular bat and do the same thing. You will swing faster after practicing with the wiffle ball bat or no bat at all. Same goes for a golf club. In Western terms, it's because of muscle memory, basically and only basically. But, it wont work with extremes; like if you do it with a wushu Tiger Fork then a 90 pound Tiger Fork.

It really depends on what you are doing and how you are tricking your body.

Then again, anyone who isn't doing both is lying to themselves about their potential.

Will someone who practices on a 200 pound heavy bag be faster or slower than someone who practices on a 300 pound heavy bag? It varies, and depends on what they are practicing on the heavy bag, right?

[YouKnowWho]

other coaches prefer to develop general strength first and then make that sports specific.
The problem is there exist no "general strength training" that can help me to "enhance" my leg twisting (Kawazu gake). It's a special muscle function that even the best body builder in the world won't know thow to develop it.

http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/8433/singleheadweight.jpg

[Frost]

The problem is there exist no "general strength training" that can help me to "enhance" my leg twisting (Kawazu gake). It's a special muscle function that even the best body builder in the world won't know thow to develop it.

http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/8433/singleheadweight.jpg
the whole idea behind it being general strength training is that its general, its not specific, you get the legs very strong, explosive and powerful, you work on single leg movements as well for stabalisation and then you make it specific.

Getting the legs stronger (quads, hamstrings, glutes, hip adbuctors etc) would go along way to making your leg attacks strong wouldn't you agree? and then work the throws against reistance, either bands or the weights you posted or an actual heavy opponent (sports specific training)


oh and i wouldn't ask a body builder i'd ask a sports performace coach he might have the answer, afterall its his job to get these guys fit and ready for action. Its what the top judo and wrestlers do, they train the same way strength first and then make it specific to the task at hand

[uki]

The problem is there exist no "general strength training" that can help me to "enhance" my leg twisting (Kawazu gake). It's a special muscle function that even the best body builder in the world won't know thow to develop it.

http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/8433/singleheadweight.jpgthanks for sharing... great exercise!!! :)

[Frost]

Frost,

Hello,

Not always... For sprinters, okay, sure...Sport specific, depends on the movement and too many other things to list here. I doubt that practicing sprinting slow would hurt a sprinter's structure, but I am not a part of that field of sports so I don't want to speculate about that.

But, go buy a wiffle ball bat and practice swinging it as fast as you can then swing a regular bat. Opposite, put weight rings on the end of the regular bat and do the same thing. You will swing faster after practicing with the wiffle ball bat or no bat at all. Same goes for a golf club. In Western terms, it's because of muscle memory, basically and only basically. But, it wont work with extremes; like if you do it with a wushu Tiger Fork then a 90 pound Tiger Fork.

It really depends on what you are doing and how you are tricking your body.

Then again, anyone who isn't doing both is lying to themselves about their potential.

Will someone who practices on a 200 pound heavy bag be faster or slower than someone who practices on a 300 pound heavy bag? It varies, and depends on what they are practicing on the heavy bag, right?

true but generally if you get a guy stronger (power lifts), more explosive (OL lifts jumps, medicine ball throws etc) you generally end up with a guy who will pitch harder, hit harder etc, that’s what I mean by making its sports specific, I don't mean using weight bats, etc, I know the functional guys like to do this but I am more of the defranco/cressey school of thought when it comes to strength and sports training. Get yourself stronger and faster and then practise your sports, I don't like it when people use implements that change the biomechanics of the sports: bates heavier than the ones they will use, dumbbells for punches etc but that’s just my view.

[taai gihk yahn]

The problem is there exist no "general strength training" that can help me to "enhance" my leg twisting (Kawazu gake). It's a special muscle function that even the best body builder in the world won't know thow to develop it.

http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/8433/singleheadweight.jpg

how is that a "special" muscle function? muscles function in only one of three ways - concentrically (shortening), eccentrically (lengthening) and isometric (static holding); you isolate or combine these three types of contractions with other variables such as weight, velocity, etc. to get desired effects - as for this movement, based purely on the static image, it looks like it's concentric hip flexion combined with isometric ankle dorsiflexion and knee flexion, and of course there is a lot of core pelvis stabilization going on as well - of course a video clip would allow a more precise assessment;

[sanjuro_ronin]

To echo what Chris and Frost have said, strengthening the muscles in a general way is what builds them up so that they can be strengthened in a SPECIFIC way.
Its like building Chi all over and then sending it to a specific point, while you MAY be able to develop chi in a specific area only, it is far better to cultivate it all over ( general) and then in particular ( specific).
MST advocates this because it has found that it build specifc strength better that way.
While in theory this MAY seem to contrdict the view: The whole is only as strong as the sum of its parts, ie: work the parts and the whole gets better.
In reality building up strength in general ( all over) is better than building up strenght in specific because the body adapts better to WHOLE stimulation than partial.
This is why a guy that deadlifts and doesn't do curl will have stronger biceps than a guy the curls and doesn't do DL- the DL allows more weight to be used and effects the whole body as opposed to just the biceps, those making the whole body stronger, including the biceps.

[Drake]

maybe a silly question, but could one imagine weight, and by this way, strengthen the muscles ?

A guy named Harry Wong (I know, Paul!) brought out a book a while back called "Dynamic Tension" that followed that theory. He studied San Soo, I believe.

[taai gihk yahn]

In reality building up strength in general ( all over) is better than building up strenght in specific because the body adapts better to WHOLE stimulation than partial.
This is why a guy that deadlifts and doesn't do curl will have stronger biceps than a guy the curls and doesn't do DL- the DL allows more weight to be used and effects the whole body as opposed to just the biceps, those making the whole body stronger, including the biceps.
qft - an individual muscle is only as "strong" as the base off of which it stabilizes: when u contact biceps concentricaly to do a curl, the distal end moves, but the proximal end stays stable - well what is it that stabilizes that? if u have weak scapular stabilizers, biceps will not be as strong; if u are standing while doing a curl and ur pelvic stabilizers are weak (e.g. - gluteus medius and maximus are two frequently inhibited muscles), etc.

[sanjuro_ronin]

A guy named Harry Wong (I know, Paul!) brought out a book a while back called "Dynamic Tension" that followed that theory. He studied San Soo, I believe.

LMAO !
Actually, I read that book.
Dynamic tension as a strength building protocol works well, there is just one problem that it shares with isometics ( static tension):
Measuring resistence.
The biggest issue with doing ST without weights is measuring your progress and increasing resistence.
With BW exercises we can count the reps and see how we progress, we cna even add weight to increase resistence.
With isometrics we can also use weight and count/time to hold, increasing the weight being held when it is easier.
BUT, dynamic tension is done by tensing the muscles ( all of them being used in the given movement, eccentric and concentric ones), you can't use weights for that so you must be consious of your body and how much tension you use.
The problem is that one can't measure tension out side of this:
Full tension
Less tension
"No" tension.
You can't measure the degree of intensity, you are either at full tension or you are at less than full.
As such, dynamic tension, to work, must be at full or as close to full tension as possible, simply because there is no other way to measure it.

[Drake]

LMAO !
Actually, I read that book.
Dynamic tension as a strength building protocol works well, there is just one problem that it shares with isometics ( static tension):
Measuring resistence.
The biggest issue with doing ST without weights is measuring your progress and increasing resistence.
With BW exercises we can count the reps and see how we progress, we cna even add weight to increase resistence.
With isometrics we can also use weight and count/time to hold, increasing the weight being held when it is easier.
BUT, dynamic tension is done by tensing the muscles ( all of them being used in the given movement, eccentric and concentric ones), you can't use weights for that so you must be consious of your body and how much tension you use.
The problem is that one can't measure tension out side of this:
Full tension
Less tension
"No" tension.
You can't measure the degree of intensity, you are either at full tension or you are at less than full.
As such, dynamic tension, to work, must be at full or as close to full tension as possible, simply because there is no other way to measure it.


Yeah, but that dude was RIPPED! Maybe it was from all that crazy San Soo he studied?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yeah, but that dude was RIPPED! Maybe it was from all that crazy San Soo he studied?

The ripped part had nothing to do with dynamic tension, the ripped look has to do with diet, as you know.
What ever happened to Harry Wong anyways?
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51CX63GP4ML._SS500_.jpg

[Drake]

The ripped part had nothing to do with dynamic tension, the ripped look has to do with diet, as you know.
What ever happened to Harry Wong anyways?
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51CX63GP4ML._SS500_.jpg

I was wondering the same thing.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I read the book ages ago, don't remember much though...maybe I should get my hands on it again...

[Scott R. Brown]

qft - an individual muscle is only as "strong" as the base off of which it stabilizes: when u contact biceps concentricaly to do a curl, the distal end moves, but the proximal end stays stable - well what is it that stabilizes that? if u have weak scapular stabilizers, biceps will not be as strong; if u are standing while doing a curl and ur pelvic stabilizers are weak (e.g. - gluteus medius and maximus are two frequently inhibited muscles), etc.

And if the exercise is performed while standing upon sand, then their house will be unstable....or something like that!

I know its true cuz its in the Bible!:p


LMAO !
Actually, I read that book.
Dynamic tension as a strength building protocol works well, there is just one problem that it shares with isometics ( static tension):
Measuring resistence.
The biggest issue with doing ST without weights is measuring your progress and increasing resistence.
With BW exercises we can count the reps and see how we progress, we cna even add weight to increase resistence.
With isometrics we can also use weight and count/time to hold, increasing the weight being held when it is easier.
BUT, dynamic tension is done by tensing the muscles ( all of them being used in the given movement, eccentric and concentric ones), you can't use weights for that so you must be consious of your body and how much tension you use.
The problem is that one can't measure tension out side of this:
Full tension
Less tension
"No" tension.
You can't measure the degree of intensity, you are either at full tension or you are at less than full.
As such, dynamic tension, to work, must be at full or as close to full tension as possible, simply because there is no other way to measure it.

I used to perform dynamic tension exercises regularly in my younger days as an adjunct to my MA training and weight training.

One can measure progress subjectively through perceived exertion, perceived fatigue and the results of perceived muscle control. It is actually quite an effective measure.

While I do not recommend dynamic tension as ones sole strength training method, I do recommend it as an adjunct.

And also if one cannot train in any other manner, of course

[sanjuro_ronin]

One can measure progress subjectively through perceived exertion, perceived fatigue and the results of perceived muscle control. It is actually quite an effective measure.
Perception can be tricky though.

Now, do we view DT as Qigong or as Modern ST? even though it is NOT modern at all?

[Scott R. Brown]

Perception can be tricky though.

Now, do we view DT as Qigong or as Modern ST? even though it is NOT modern at all?

It falls under the category of Hard Qigong.

Yes, "perceived" measures are notoriously unscientific and a poor measure at best. However, for experienced practitioners you can definitely "perceive" a benefit and difference over not performing the exercises at all.

It is a small step to performing some EMG tests however. It would be interesting to see. Also one could do some weight tests. Then perform solely DT and then retest.

I am not saying it made me stronger, I do not know, but my muscle control was phenomenal.

[sanjuro_ronin]

It falls under the category of Hard Qigong.

Yes, "perceived" measures are notoriously unscientific and a poor measure at best. However, for experienced practitioners you can definitely "perceive" a benefit and difference over not performing the exercises at all.

It is a small step to performing some EMG tests however. It would be interesting to see. Also one could do some weight tests. Then perform solely DT and then retest.

I am not saying it made me stronger, I do not know, but my muscle control was phenomenal.

I'll get back to the hard qigong for a minute, but first:
Not too long ago I did a test for a friend of mine, he hooked up some elctromyosomethingorothers to my muscles as I did the Iron wire.
These things measure muscle activity, or muscle fibre recruitment, some crap like that.
Anyways, I did some moves at full tension and some at "just enough" and the muscles at full tension were as activated as when I was doing a ST exercise and was going to the point of failure ( not failure but close to it).
Example:
During a dip exercise, as I got close to failure about 92% of the chest muscles were "firing", and during a typical pressing ( Jai kui for example), is was close to the 90% also.

[sanjuro_ronin]

RE: Hard Qigong.

IF we follow the view that some have that Qi can't flow through tensed muscles, how does hard qi gong work then?

[dirtyrat]

RE: Hard Qigong.

IF we follow the view that some have that Qi can't flow through tensed muscles, how does hard qi gong work then?

is this Yang, Jwing-Ming's view? Because I thought he uses tension methods in his white crane system.

[sanjuro_ronin]

is this Yang, Jwing-Ming's view? Because I thought he uses tension methods in his white crane system.

It's funny you mention that because I recall the hard qigong from that book also.
perhaps because the Qigong in this other book is "soft" qi gong, that is why he states this.
Still, the question begs an answer, if tension blocks the flow of chi, what's the deal with hard qi gong then?

[goju]

Yeah, but that dude was RIPPED! Maybe it was from all that crazy San Soo he studied?

lol he probably just lifted weights and never did anything in his book he showed :D

[YouKnowWho]

they train the same way strength first and then make it specific to the task at hand

Both pathes may reach to the same goal if some of those TST methods also exist in the MST. So far I have not been able to find any equipment in the modern gym that can help me to develop "both arms twisting" ability yet (I go to 24 hours fitness center 3 times a week).

http://johnswang.com/sc20.wmv

[dirtyrat]

It's funny you mention that because I recall the hard qigong from that book also.
perhaps because the Qigong in this other book is "soft" qi gong, that is why he states this.
Still, the question begs an answer, if tension blocks the flow of chi, what's the deal with hard qi gong then?

Supposedly the tension is used to create a surge of qi flow. Much like using your thumb to partially block the opening of a hose. Put a kink in the hose is like creating too much tension and thereby decrease the flow or obstruct it. I don't know really. Personally, the whole qigong theory is enough to make my head spin.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Supposedly the tension is used to create a surge of qi flow. Much like using your thumb to partially block the opening of a hose. Put a kink in the hose is like creating too much tension and thereby decrease the flow or obstruct it. I don't know really. Personally, the whole qigong theory is enough to make my head spin.

See, that is what I was told also, the hard qigong exercises, such as the IW that I practice, "hold" the chi via the tension, one tenses the arms, the chi stays there and strengthens the arms.
The soft qi gong is about cultivating chi and allowing it to flow/sending it to certain parts and the hard qi gong "traps" the qi and build strenght and endurance in the tensed area.
One does/needs both hard and soft ( yin and yang) to balance the body.

[Scott R. Brown]

I'll get back to the hard qigong for a minute, but first:
Not too long ago I did a test for a friend of mine, he hooked up some elctromyosomethingorothers to my muscles as I did the Iron wire.
These things measure muscle activity, or muscle fibre recruitment, some crap like that.
Anyways, I did some moves at full tension and some at "just enough" and the muscles at full tension were as activated as when I was doing a ST exercise and was going to the point of failure ( not failure but close to it).
Example:
During a dip exercise, as I got close to failure about 92% of the chest muscles were "firing", and during a typical pressing ( Jai kui for example), is was close to the 90% also.

Yes, the EMG will only tell you which muscles are being activated and what percentage of contraction!

The results are interesting, but what about dynamic tension? See if you can get him to measure that for you!


RE: Hard Qigong.

IF we follow the view that some have that Qi can't flow through tensed muscles, how does hard qi gong work then?

Qi goes wherever the blood goes so the more blood the more Qi. As with weight training, perhaps there is a point of diminishing returns.

Or a muscle with a knot in it from tension, which is more like a spasm, is perhaps not the same as a muscle that is intentionally contracted.

[taai gihk yahn]

See, that is what I was told also, the hard qigong exercises, such as the IW that I practice, "hold" the chi via the tension, one tenses the arms, the chi stays there and strengthens the arms.
The soft qi gong is about cultivating chi and allowing it to flow/sending it to certain parts and the hard qi gong "traps" the qi and build strenght and endurance in the tensed area.
One does/needs both hard and soft ( yin and yang) to balance the body.

I think a lot of the so-called "hard" qigong is very similar to yogic pranayama practice, specifically what are called "bandus" or "locks" which are designed to get the kundalini to "rise"; physiologicaly, AFAI can tell, this stuff increases intrathoracic pressure, which, among other things, has the effect of stimulating the sympathetic chain that runs alongside the thoracic spine, which has the effect of creating a modified sympathetic response (fight/flight, adrenaline, etc.); that's why I think you get jazzed doing stuff like the wire - u r creating a controlled adrenaine state; which causes vasodilation and engages large muscle groups in general (FM goes out the window in symp resp); so that might b part of the strength effect...

[sanjuro_ronin]

The results are interesting, but what about dynamic tension? See if you can get him to measure that for you!

The IW I did was "dynamic tension"...

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think a lot of the so-called "hard" qigong is very similar to yogic pranayama practice, specifically what are called "bandus" or "locks" which are designed to get the kundalini to "rise"; physiologicaly, AFAI can tell, this stuff increases intrathoracic pressure, which, among other things, has the effect of stimulating the sympathetic chain that runs alongside the thoracic spine, which has the effect of creating a modified sympathetic response (fight/flight, adrenaline, etc.); that's why I think you get jazzed doing stuff like the wire - u r creating a controlled adrenaine state; which causes vasodilation and engages large muscle groups in general (FM goes out the window in symp resp); so that might b part of the strength effect...

Indeed, one does get "jazzed" when doing the IW or even Sanchin.
My Sifu said the reverse breathing used in some/all of the IW charges you up and I am not tired or drained after the IW, even when I push it near the 20 min mark, I am "energized".

[IronFist]

Still, the question begs an answer, if tension blocks the flow of chi, what's the deal with hard qi gong then?

I've always wondered that, too.

Maybe it ties in with the belief that the internal guys aren't using their muscles to move (so their qi has free reign to go wherever it wants). Cuz silly oldschool guys think you can contract your tendons or something. Traditional martial artists are worst than first year anatomy students who don't even know anything yet.

I mean obviously walking around with all your muscles tensed all day is a bad idea, but if you're moving at all it's because your muscles are contracting. You're not contracting your tendons, or your ligaments, or using your qi or anything else. Sorry oldschool qigong guys.

[taai gihk yahn]

I've always wondered that, too.

Maybe it ties in with the belief that the internal guys aren't using their muscles to move (so their qi has free reign to go wherever it wants). Cuz silly oldschool guys think you can contract your tendons or something. Traditional martial artists are worst than first year anatomy students who don't even know anything yet.

I mean obviously walking around with all your muscles tensed all day is a bad idea, but if you're moving at all it's because your muscles are contracting. You're not contracting your tendons, or your ligaments, or using your qi or anything else. Sorry oldschool qigong guys.

yeh, one of my mini-missions in life is to smack people (proverbially) on the head who spew that crap about "I'm not moving with muscle"; oh, really? well unless u r laying in a puddle of non-contractile tissue on the floor, u r - in fact, if u r breathing and hav a pulse, u r using muscle, LOL!

what they describe as "not muscle", is actually, IMPO, a more coordinated use of muscle and possibly functioning out of a coordinated effect of muscle function and how ground-reaction force transfers itself via connective tissue structures (including tendons); problem is, they don't have any appreciation for muscle / tendon / CT physiology, and so they just run wild with their strange ideas , which, for some bizzare reason, has them equating muscle function with something somehow lower, less desireable than whatever it is they think that they are doing;

of course, we could just hook em up to a surface EMG and let them do their "non-muscle" movement and see what happens....;)

[Scott R. Brown]

It is more likely that they meant their overall mental focus. It is probably something along the lines of a weight trainer focusing on their elbows when doing a chin up instead of their hands. A coach would say just that, "Pull with you elbows!" There is a slight difference in the feel of the exercise when one does this. Although the general action remains pretty much the same.

So more than likely they mean something along the lines of, "Don't TRY to do it!". Meaning don't force it or muscle it, let the technique do the work. It is like in Aikido....a well executed technique "appears" to happen on its own, without any effort at all. This gives the impressions that no muscle is used because it is technique and timing that makes it easy. So, using the mind rather than muscle would be more of the feeling of the action rather than an actual physiological fact which is, of course, impossible.