3 Seeds of wing chun

[SAAMAG]

We know that there are three families of wing chun; the tan, bong, and fook. In short these are techniques that use the radial edge, the ulnar edge, and the middle part of the hand / forearm, respectively. Knowing this, techniques can be classified into one of these families; e.g. gaan sao being part of the bong family or jut sao part of the fook family. These are also known as the three seeds of wing chun.

To expand on this, when I think of "seeds" I think of a starting point by which something grows from. That said, there are a lot of things that can be learnt from a single movement, even though it may not be explicitely expressed as such. I thought that this would be a good format by which to expand on the various indirect things that we've all learned in our studies of wing chun.

Some simple examples from CK and BJ:

The 3 bong sao movements done with steps, can be interpreted as an overhand punch when moving in. Same motion, but with the hand in the form of a fist. Basically a pak - da using the bong sao's motion.

A step forward doubles as a wang gurk as you drive the leg into the knee and down the shin of the opponent while moving in.

The double bong can be used as a defense against a bear hug from behind, using the sweeping legs of biu jee combined with the waist turning can use fak sao or wang jeung to the upper body to take down the opponent (you can use a soo gurk sweep at the same time for good measure).

Less explicit example:

When you lap sao say with the right hand, you can use the sweeping step from BJ with the right leg to make yourself sideward while at the same time using a forceful waist turn clockwise (to coordinate the lap, step, and turn) into a quick arm break using the body as the fulcrum on his elbow.

....


Anyone have any other not so obvious applications using wing chun "seeds"?

[chusauli]

A mistake is to look at these as "techniques". They should be viewed as assisting one hand with another.

WCK sets have no "bunkai" like in Okinawan or Japanese arts.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think that WC people are anally retentive.

[SAAMAG]

A mistake is to look at these as "techniques". They should be viewed as assisting one hand with another.

WCK sets have no "bunkai" like in Okinawan or Japanese arts.

Hmm....

I think a bit differently then. I think that the wing chun sets do indeed show you techniques (aren't the chung choi, gaan sao, bong sao, also techniques as well?)

Thinking back, through the form sets I have learned the basics of the system with SLT. I learned the most fundamental of the techniques, how to apply soft power, how to be aware of my mental center as well as my physical one.

Chum kiu taught me the basics of WC movement, provided another concept of power generation, and introduced other techniques as well like lan sao, the jing and wang gurk, etc.

BJ in short--showed me ways to regain my center when things don't go as planned. It also further developed whipping power and introduced even more techniques like the sweeping leg steps and the grabbing and hook punch.

So while I agree that you're not going to take a 5-string set of moves from the forms and apply them as such in real life, to say that there are not techniques is also incorrect. If you notice the examples I gave, the first group were basically single techniques...using somthing from the sets. The second one, was using techniques, movements, power generation from any one of the three sets to show application of something learnt.

Could there be other ways to use the movements in the forms? Absolutely!! That's why I created the thread. The examples I gave, I've actually used in fighting.

[LoneTiger108]

Three seeds!?!~$%!?

I actually got excited when I saw this thread before I read it and realized that it was talking of something else!

Shame. As it was going well...

[SAAMAG]

Perhaps you should contribute to it then based on what you thought it was going to be about?

Shame that no one here wants to share as opposed to argue about what is "right".

[-木叶-]

There are 8 hands of Wing Chun, called the 詠春八手

攤 - tan sao
膀 - bong sao
伏 - fook sao
圈 - hun sao

耕 - gang sao
刮 - gua sao
捆 - koon sao
標 - biu sao (biu jee)

[k gledhill]

theres no mention of the most important idea...elbow. why does SLT have elbows in ?

or jum sao... jum is the yin of tans yang......

btw bong saos arent overhand strikes.....there arent 3 bongs , just one..

applications will be your downfall....your missing the heavenly glory.

oh well why bother....

8 hands ? no jum sao....gone , missing, not there anymore...where is it ?

[SAAMAG]

theres no mention of the most important idea...elbow. why does SLT have elbows in ?

or jum sao... jum is the yin of tans yang......

btw bong saos arent overhand strikes.....there arent 3 bongs , just one..

applications will be your downfall....your missing the heavenly glory.

oh well why bother....

Because the three seeds are tan, bong, and fook. Though I understand where you're coming from.

When I say 3 bongs...I'm talking about the bong sao's that are repeated 3 times in CK.

You're right in that bong sao's aren't strikes, they're bong sao's. I simply used the same movement to come up with a solution to the need on the fly, there it was. That's why I said it wasn't a direct application.


But I think that so far ALL of you are missing the point of the post. Completely. What I'm trying to make conversation about are the things that you've done in sparring or fighting that can be traced back to one of the three basic seeds, and/or something out of the forms. It's not application exactly from the form, it's application using skills derived from the form or technique.

Is it really that difficult to make light conversation about this aspect of it?

[Matrix]

I think that WC people are anally retentive.More like obsessive-compulsive, but why get picky about it. ;)

[LoneTiger108]

There are 8 hands of Wing Chun, called the 詠春八手

攤 - tan sao
膀 - bong sao
伏 - fook sao
圈 - hun sao

耕 - gang sao
刮 - gua sao
捆 - koon sao
標 - biu sao (biu jee)

Seriously, there are more than eight 'hands'. As others have mentioned, you have a few missing here for starters...


Perhaps you should contribute to it then based on what you thought it was going to be about?

Shame that no one here wants to share as opposed to argue about what is "right".

I actually couldn't care less if people want to argue right and wrongs! I'm only interested in good, honest research and exchange.

Regarding what I mean by using the term 'three seeds', you do explain quite well what I have mentioned many times on other threads. As you put it, Bong, Fook and Tan are evident in 'everything we do' and should not be limited to the 'one way' option I tend to see and read about.

IMO What is a correct bong sau?

One that works! :D

However, you tend to get carried away with trying to highlight this simple fact by using examples from the forms. By telling me you have a fist on your CK bong sau set gives me a very big clue. Now all we need to do is convince others that the same 'idea' originates within the SLT 'Fist' set! ;) And if anyone reading has not tried this out I would heavily recommend it.

Honestly, I don't think there will be many people that understand what you're trying to say. Many are just too 'fixed' in their own way unfortunately.

This subject matter also begs the question about order of the seed. As you mention, you refer to Bong, Fook, Tan but do you actually practise in that sequence? They are also referred to sometimes as the 'three treasures' of Wing Chun, but as with all treasures you need a map to decode the info!

I feel that you may prefer the flow of Bong, Tan, Fook...

[sanjuro_ronin]

More like obsessive-compulsive, but why get picky about it. ;)

Indeed, I don't recall a boxing coach ever getting all "terminologistic" about anything !

[LoneTiger108]

Indeed, I don't recall a boxing coach ever getting all "terminologistic" about anything !

Maybe coz they only have four basic punches to use, and no other interpretation for an open handed player

[sanjuro_ronin]

Maybe coz they only have four basic punches to use, and no other interpretation for an open handed player

Simple, direct, effective.
Hmmm, sounds strangely familiar....

[Vajramusti]

Is it really that difficult to make light conversation about this aspect of it?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On this forum? Yes!!

joy chaudhuri

[ittokaos]

Aren't the three seeds just your way of explaining the three ways wing chun fights?

Tan, Fook, Bong

Push, Pull, Deflect.

It's more like those techniques are just a physical example of the principles.

[SAAMAG]

By telling me you have a fist on your CK bong sau set gives me a very big clue.

You misunderstand or I wrote it in an unclear way. My bong sao doesn't "have a fist".

What I was saying is that I've used the same movement/motion/body function of the "wu/bong" from chum kiu (where after the lan sao and kick it is repeated 3 times in row with advancing steps) while intercepting a punch. The difference being that the bong ended up being a punch and the wu ended up using a pak motion.

The long and short of it is, the motions you learn the in the forms, the things attributes that you gain from the movements and motions, have more than the explicitely obvious applications to them. There is no limit as to what a single movement or technique can do for you.

Even within the same movement...it can be done with a yin or a yang intent (i.e. a more passive or assertive way).

When I metion the 3 seeds, I'm briefly discussed what the term actually is meant to describe, and in thinking about the aspect of seeds, elaborated a bit more and looked at specific instances of application from the seeds. That's all. Nothing more to it.

[SAAMAG]

Aren't the three seeds just your way of explaining the three ways wing chun fights?

Tan, Fook, Bong

Push, Pull, Deflect.

It's more like those techniques are just a physical example of the principles.

Pretty much. The three seeds I look at as just that...the source(s) by which everything else comes. In some form or fashion all that we do in wing chun sao fot can be traced back to those ideas.

Looking at applications done in fighting and looking backwards to the forms or drills or training or what have you provides some indication of which parts of your training are working.

[JPinAZ]

What's amazing to me, is all the talk of technique this, technique that here lately... I thought this was a WCK forum.. :confused:

But, just talking technique..


Tan, Fook, Bong

Push, Pull, Deflect.


I disagree if you mean tan=push, fook=pull, bong=deflect.

Tan does not necessarily push (but it does have fwd intent)
Fook does not equal pull (how can it when it has fwd intent thru the elbow)
and Bong does not always equal deflect.

Tan can also equal disperse (or spread), or simply to occupy the heaven gate.
Fook can be a cover or redirect. Both accomplished using fwd energy from the elbow.
Bong can be a deflect, but also can be used to penetrate. It can be both offensive and defensive.
And, there are 2 different types of bong. Ying bong and hok bong (eagle and crane).
But really, the answers for what tool does what really depends on the appropriate concept you are expressing and the principal you are operating under.

As far as seeds, I would also disagree that these are the '3 seeds' of WCK. Maybe the 3 seeds/techniques for Duei Ying Chi Sau, but not all WCK. That's putting yourself into too small of a box.

[ittokaos]

What's amazing to me, is all the talk of technique this, technique that here lately... I thought this was a WCK forum.. :confused:

But, just talking technique..



I disagree if you mean tan=push, fook=pull, bong=deflect.

Tan does not necessarily push (but it does have fwd intent)
Fook does not equal pull (how can it when it has fwd intent thru the elbow)
and Bong does not always equal deflect.

Tan can also equal disperse (or spread), or simply to occupy the heaven gate.
Fook can be a cover or redirect. Both accomplished using fwd energy from the elbow.
Bong can be a deflect, but also can be used to penetrate. It can be both offensive and defensive.
And, there are 2 different types of bong. Ying bong and hok bong (eagle and crane).
But really, the answers for what tool does what really depends on the appropriate concept you are expressing and the principal you are operating under.

As far as seeds, I would also disagree that these are the '3 seeds' of WCK. Maybe the 3 seeds/techniques for Duei Ying Chi Sau, but not all WCK. That's putting yourself into too small of a box.

I agree with what you have to say but i was just putting it down for clearification purposes as a way to understand what Vankuen was talking about. All techniques can be used differently than the way that we were originally taught.

[SAAMAG]

And to clarify as well, I wasn't talking about all of wing chun with the seeds, as obviously there are many aspects of wc that do not use them, like the kicks and footwork

[k gledhill]

Arggggghhhh !

[duende]

Arggggghhhh !

Haha... ;) :D

[k gledhill]

The inmates are running the asylum...:D

[Paul T England]

I got excited with this thread as well.

The 3 seeds of wing chun are a bit like the holy grail...mentioned but never explained fully.

the push, pull redirect does not fit for me...

how about elbow (Bong) , wrist (Tan) and positional control (Fook)...

Techniques can be made from any movement but the intention while performing the mtions is more important

Paul

[LoneTiger108]

I got excited with this thread as well.

The 3 seeds of wing chun are a bit like the holy grail...mentioned but never explained fully.

the push, pull redirect does not fit for me...

how about elbow (Bong) , wrist (Tan) and positional control (Fook)...

Techniques can be made from any movement but the intention while performing the mtions is more important

Paul

This is also what I was 'attempting' to explain Paul!

FWIW I think most people would have had the terms explained at their beginnings, so I can understand why the connection to push, pull, deflect would fit 'at that time'. But as you grow, so should your understanding of this simple concept.


And to clarify as well, I wasn't talking about all of wing chun with the seeds, as obviously there are many aspects of wc that do not use them, like the kicks and footwork

Not in our legwork? That's also questionable imo. The seeds are named so (like a 'nickname') because they 'label' certain alignments of three joints, namely the shoulder, elbow and wrist.

This IS mirrored in the leg with hip, knee, ankle but we tend to use the technical terms like chai gerk, soh gerk, toi gerk etc

The three seeds are 'the rabbit hole' of Wing Chun. The Red pill if you like! And there was once something said about them being the soul of Wing Chun (from my Sifu anyway!) and I understand that now as they're forever present in everything we do.

Unfortunately, the longer you train 'without' the soul the harder it is to change your habit! :D

[k gledhill]

tan wrist ? tsk tsk.:D

push , pull , redirect....sounds like 'chi-sao heads' ...trying... to explain vt .

try sparring more with VT ...try motion , striking force, tactics.....

SLT, CK, BG.... the 3 seeds of VT, from these we 'may :D with the right ideas', grow a mighty tree...not a weedy little shrub of tan bong fok..besides you left out jum.;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

IF there are 3 seeds in WC they are:
Evade, control and Destroy.

Kids...*shakes head*.
:p

[CFT]

Simple, direct and efficient would be a good mantra.

[CFT]

SLT, CK, BG.... the 3 seeds of VT, from these we 'may :D with the right ideas', grow a mighty tree...not a weedy little shrub of tan bong fok..besides you left out jum.;)Haha, thought you'd be in there with the jum.

If you think tan/bong/fook is weedy. How about the research conducted by Ip Chun which unearthed the figure of Cheung Ng aka "Tan sau Ng", whose ONE tan sau was peerless throughout the martial realm?

[LoneTiger108]

SLT, CK, BG.... the 3 seeds of VT, from these we 'may :D with the right ideas', grow a mighty tree...not a weedy little shrub of tan bong fok..besides you left out jum.;)

Hmm you're still missing the point.

Jum is the name of a specific technique. Tan, bong and fook are NOT. It is these three 'seeds' I am referring to, NOT the three forms as the three seeds! :rolleyes: Besides, without adopting the seed idea into the forms from the beginning, your tree will be weak imho.

You have to have a creative cycle first too, of which tan, bong, fook is not. Learning how to fight only is also not so creative...

[JPinAZ]

tan wrist ? tsk tsk.:D

push , pull , redirect....sounds like 'chi-sao heads' ...trying... to explain vt .

try sparring more with VT ...try motion , striking force, tactics.....

Yeah, this was my thinking as well.


IF there are 3 seeds in WC they are:
Evade, control and Destroy.

Kids...*shakes head*.
:p

I like this one, this is more the line of thinking I'd agree with.
Along these lines, I think I'd have to go with: Engage, neutralize and maintain.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I like this one.
I think I'd have to go with: Engage, neutralize and maintain.

I can live with that one too :D

[k gledhill]

Hmm you're still missing the point.

Jum is the name of a specific technique. Tan, bong and fook are NOT. It is these three 'seeds' I am referring to, NOT the three forms as the three seeds! :rolleyes: Besides, without adopting the seed idea into the forms from the beginning, your tree will be weak imho.

You have to have a creative cycle first too, of which tan, bong, fook is not. Learning how to fight only is also not so creative...

this just shows your not doing jum in the beginning of SLT....its there Spencer..just because YOU don't do it ...blame your teacher not me.....jum is Tans opposite in striking .....outside arm/inside arm
each strikes along the line.... EACH, 1 punch followed by another, you need either side of the arm trained to deflect as it strikes ....

your doing moves....

SLT is X along the line , make punch on the line , train punch energy ...tan, huen, jum elbows in, relax elbow out a little do wu sao back, from wu sao release energy from wrist, hand flops down , push elbow out forwards and to the the line, bringing elbow to line ...

tan huen jum SLT how to bring elbows in then how to start using tan elbow spreads off line as it hits, jum elbow goes in as it hits....dan chi, tan strike v jum strike...

What better exercise to develop opposite energies ? one is inside yours ony for a drill ie tan is inside for drilling against jums natural inward energy....

[anerlich]

Judging by some of the responses here, it doesn't sound like these three seeds are going to turn into Jack's beanstalk. More like a thicket of twisted poisonous briars, useless for anything.

Why isn't T on this thread? He seems enjoy protracted and ultimately pointless disputes over minutae.

[LoneTiger108]

Judging by some of the responses here, it doesn't sound like these three seeds are going to turn into Jack's beanstalk. More like a thicket of twisted poisonous briars, useless for anything.

That's the sad thing about this forum sometimes.

Simple discussion turns into an online teaching thread that basically has nothing to do with the initial subject!


SLT is X along the line , make punch on the line , train punch energy ...tan, huen, jum elbows in, relax elbow out a little do wu sao back, from wu sao release energy from wrist, hand flops down , push elbow out forwards and to the the line, bringing elbow to line ...

I have no need to know this, as nothing in my SLT 'flops' anywhere and we're discussing the three seeds. Until this is understood we're going nowhere fast.

The three seeds (I'm talking of!) are anything but useless ;)

[t_niehoff]

We know that there are three families of wing chun; the tan, bong, and fook.


No. There are no "familes" of WCK techniques.



In short these are techniques that use the radial edge, the ulnar edge, and the middle part of the hand / forearm, respectively.


No.



Anyone have any other not so obvious applications using wing chun "seeds"?

Tan, bong, fook comprise the "starting" point of the YKS and YM chi sao training platform (the signature drill/exercise of WCK), hence the reference to "seeds".

Tan, bong, fook -- like all WCK tools -- are actions not shapes. Tan, for example, is the action of spreading, and has nothing to do with any "edge" of your arm.

[k gledhill]

so you 'think' ....doesnt make it so....tan sao doesnt 'leave' the line in SLT or did I miss that part ? for a very fundamentally important reason....I used to do the tan spreads but then learned the error...common among VT'ers ....a drill used in VT uses the tan and jum as we pivot, looks like tan is leaving to do a spreading block...its not. So unless someone explains the system to you , you will think its a 2 arm extended strike n block :D

Let me know what part of the SLT the tan hand/wrist spreads off the line .....Im waiting.:D:D

then try to use it to block a punch and pivot inside the guys arms...its your nose..

Spencer , the lessons arent for you its for guys with open minds....;) your a 'follower'

[CFT]

Tan, bong, fook -- like all WCK tools -- are actions not shapes. Tan, for example, is the action of spreading, and has nothing to do with any "edge" of your arm.Isn't the action of "turning over" the forearm the tan/spreading action?

[t_niehoff]

Isn't the action of "turning over" the forearm the tan/spreading action?

Sure, that's part of the action.

[CFT]

What's the rest of the action?

I think Van's classifications are OK to a point - those are just the contact points though - not the actions. You need both (range and elevation too) to be correct for it to work.

[t_niehoff]

so you 'think' ....doesnt make it so....tan sao doesnt 'leave' the line in SLT or did I miss that part ? for a very fundamentally important reason....I used to do the tan spreads but then learned the error...common among VT'ers ....a drill used in VT uses the tan and jum as we pivot, looks like tan is leaving to do a spreading block...its not. So unless someone explains the system to you , you will think its a 2 arm extended strike n block :D


There are no lines except in your imagination (do you see any lines?).

Tan (spreading) sao isn't a "block" or deflection or parry -- it is a bridge hand. Bridge hands manipulate the (opponent's) bridge to our advantage.

Too many people believe their ears (when "someone explains the system to you") and not their eyes.



Let me know what part of the SLT the tan hand/wrist spreads off the line .....Im waiting.:D:D


Again, there is no line except in your imagination.

A simple ilustration -- have your partner put his right palm on your chest and press. Take your left arm and put it inside/underneath his arm making contact with his wrist and with your thumb facing your chest and your fingers pointed up (which necessitates your elbow being down). Now while keeping your elbow down, rotate your palm upward while moving your hand slightly toward your opponent. Viola! You've just performed a tan sao -- you've used a bridge hand to spread the opponent's bridge to your advantage.



Spencer , the lessons arent for you its for guys with open minds....;) your a 'follower'

Any "follower" has a closed mind.

[t_niehoff]

What's the rest of the action?

I think Van's classifications are OK to a point - those are just the contact points though - not the actions. You need both (range and elevation too) to be correct for it to work.

The action comes from the whole body, not just the arm.

[CFT]

^^
OK, that's fine. Thought I was missing something else.

[LoneTiger108]

Spencer , the lessons arent for you its for guys with open minds....;) your a 'follower'

Takes one to know one I suppose!

Although I wouldn't class myself a follower these days.

I was a student who 'served' his master, I couldn't disagree with that and in fact I'm very proud of what I accomplished with him too, but now I'm out there (with a brother) researching and coaching as best we can to a very select audience.

I think a mirror is required for that 'closed mind' comment dude, as you seem to be far more closed than I could ever be...

[duende]

Tan (spreading) sao isn't a "block" or deflection or parry -- it is a bridge hand. Bridge hands manipulate the (opponent's) bridge to our advantage.

A simple ilustration -- have your partner put his right palm on your chest and press. Take your left arm and put it inside/underneath his arm making contact with his wrist and with your thumb facing your chest and your fingers pointed up (which necessitates your elbow being down). Now while keeping your elbow down, rotate your palm upward while moving your hand slightly toward your opponent. Viola! You've just performed a tan sao -- you've used a bridge hand to spread the opponent's bridge to your advantage.


Nice one T!

[LoneTiger108]

Tan, bong, fook -- like all WCK tools -- are actions not shapes. Tan, for example, is the action of spreading, and has nothing to do with any "edge" of your arm.

Okay, good interpretation. Tan related to the action of spreading.

Now what about fook, or bong? :D

[duende]

Maybe this thread should be renamed "the three seeds of chi sau". ;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Its all about the centerline !
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2420/2109637011_c777777816.jpg

[duende]

Its all about the centerline !
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2420/2109637011_c777777816.jpg

Yeah... try controlling that centerline! ;):D

[k gledhill]

I leave the asylum to the inmates...:D have fun guys

[Matrix]

Tan, bong, fook -- like all WCK tools -- are actions not shapes. Tan, for example, is the action of spreading, and has nothing to do with any "edge" of your arm.Exactly. Well said.


Okay, good interpretation. Tan related to the action of spreading.I don't see it as an interpretation but rather an explanation. I think the distinction is important.

[LoneTiger108]

I don't see it as an interpretation but rather an explanation. I think the distinction is important.

Okay, if this is so (and I agree with the word 'spreading' to a point but prefer another term) please explain the meanings of fook and bong...

FWIW I too do not believe these terms are only related to chisau practise, they are (or should be) embedded in your understanding of Wing Chun basics. And I really thought that everybody had the same/similar viewpoint, but how wrong could I be? :(

[Pacman]

I have to agre with gledhil. Many people leave the center while doing these things.

leaving the center is why peoples chi sao is ineffective and why their chi sao only works in the context of a cooperative partner. As a result chi sao gets a bad rap and so does wing chun

so you 'think' ....doesnt make it so....tan sao doesnt 'leave' the line in SLT or did I miss that part ? for a very fundamentally important reason....I used to do the tan spreads but then learned the error...common among VT'ers ....a drill used in VT uses the tan and jum as we pivot, looks like tan is leaving to do a spreading block...its not. So unless someone explains the system to you , you will think its a 2 arm extended strike n block :D

Let me know what part of the SLT the tan hand/wrist spreads off the line .....Im waiting.:D:D

then try to use it to block a punch and pivot inside the guys arms...its your nose..

Spencer , the lessons arent for you its for guys with open minds....;) your a 'follower'

[Matrix]

FWIW I too do not believe these terms are only related to chisau practise, they are (or should be) embedded in your understanding of Wing Chun basics. And I really thought that everybody had the same/similar viewpoint, but how wrong could I be? :(Spencer.
You're kidding right? People don't seem to agree about too much around here. ;)
Even the term chi sao has more flavours than Baskin Robins ( that's an American ice cream store chain). Chi sao is not limited by terms, nor is Wing Chun for that matter. Let's not get hung up on that. Or the romanization of Wing Chun, or Wing Tsun or Ving Tsun or whatever.


Okay, if this is so (and I agree with the word 'spreading' to a point but prefer another term) please explain the meanings of fook and bong...When you say "interpretation" there is an implied level of abstraction, beyond the fact that most words are a level of abstraction already. It's a bit wishy-washy for me. Like you're intrepreting some abstract painting on the wall of a museum. Sorry if I'm off on a tangent here, but I think the distinction is important. Maybe I'm wrong. It may only be an issue for me, so take what I'm saying with a grain of salt.

My point here is that you need to understand how the action is used. Your intent must be a deliberate understanding, not some vague interpretation, of what the application is. It's a sense of knowing that is ingrained at a deeper level. I also think that your understanding evolves over time as your skill level increases. It becomes more innate, and actually affects other aspects of your life.

I don't really don't care if we share the exact same understanding or not; I'm not sure that it can be exactly the same. What is important is that you understand clearly what you are doing with the action. You feel it at a deep level. So, I would call a fook sau, a covering or controlling hand. You may understand it differently. I'm not sure, but I'm not concerned about interpreting. Because then we get into, how do you interpret "covering" or "controlling". In a forum like this, we have a limited ability to fully communicate our ideas, because we are missing the key factors that would be there in a face to face situation.

This is only my POV.

Cheers,
Bill

[LoneTiger108]

Spencer.
You're kidding right? People don't seem to agree about too much around here. ;)
Even the term chi sao has more flavours than Baskin Robins ( that's an American ice cream store chain). Chi sao is not limited by terms, nor is Wing Chun for that matter. Let's not get hung up on that. Or the romanization of Wing Chun, or Wing Tsun or Ving Tsun or whatever.

Yep! I am one of the few who do believe the family exists Bill! Especially in the UK, we all 'seem' to get on! I'm within the Lee Shing root and can honestly understand what you mean by 'flavours' as we ourselves have different types of tuition originating from one founder. Every one of Lee Shings original students picked up something different from the other, even their chisau practises vary.

FWIW from the way I have been taught, terms and language are a vital key to understanding how to teach Wing Chun as it was taught (in my lineage!), so if you can't understand or appreciate that that is where I am coming from, like I do about your situation, we already have an issue.


My point here is that you need to understand how the action is used. Your intent must be a deliberate understanding, not some vague interpretation, of what the application is. It's a sense of knowing that is ingrained at a deeper level. I also think that your understanding evolves over time as your skill level increases. It becomes more innate, and actually affects other aspects of your life.

I agree 100% here.


I don't really don't care if we share the exact same understanding or not; I'm not sure that it can be exactly the same. What is important is that you understand clearly what you are doing with the action. You feel it at a deep level. So, I would call a fook sau, a covering or controlling hand. You may understand it differently. I'm not sure, but I'm not concerned about interpreting. Because then we get into, how do you interpret "covering" or "controlling". In a forum like this, we have a limited ability to fully communicate our ideas, because we are missing the key factors that would be there in a face to face situation.

I use the word interpretation loosely, and I'm normally referring to the language when I do so, not the training or action. You're right though, getting into a ruck over the simplest of terms is just pointless. Physical interaction is the key. End of.

FWIW If we had the same teacher, same experience and same curriculums then I would be VERY dissappointed if we DIDN'T have the same understanding. As we didn't I can completely see and understand your POV and I hope you can see mine... ;)