Hold the Fist Tight

[Ultimatewingchun]

True story...from back in my Moy Yat days (1975-1983)...we got a visit at the NYC Chinatown school from another Yip Man student named Mak Po (he spoke very little English)....but he was a big man (about 5' 10"/240)...and very strong. (When I got to do chi sao with him I couldn't move him at all, lol)....

But Moy Yat told us a story about Mak Po from back in the Hong Kong days in the 1960's:

Mak Po came to Yip Man and said that he was going to have a fight with someone the next day...and wanted advice.

Yip Man just said simply: "Hold the fist tight."

After many years of doing wing chun I began to understand the wisdom in those words - and continue to do so more-and-more as time goes on.

Part of what's to be learned from the first section of SLT is the slow, easy relaxed movements starting with the first punches thrown, and then with the tan sao/fuk sao/wu sao moves.

it takes a long time to get this - and especially when under fire....but the whip like action, speed, and power seen in Bruce Lee's movies when he punched (using this since it's an example of something particular that we've all seen by now)...

that movement of a relaxed arm but a tight fist can provide both tremendous power and speed...

even though it's the reverse of what many people think is the way to go about fighting/sparring with wing chun:

open hand until it's time to throw a punch.

For some years now I've been telling my students (and myself) that the best way to go about wing chun is with a closed fist (and tight) - with relaxed arm muscles...and only open the fist when it's time to pak, lop, etc.

I believe this brings a whole other (and higher) dimension to wing chun - and infinitely more fight-ready...

and another reason to use thin, semi-fingerless gloves and protective gear - and spar for real.

Thoughts?

[HumbleWCGuy]

What do you mean by tight? Are you clinching your fist with incredible force or do you just mean that you are keeping the fist closed but relaxed?

There is this floppy wrist contingent of WC and I think that crap will get someone killed. Are you saying that you are against that or something else?

[Dragonzbane76]

I've heard the metaphor of "make your arm a chain, with an iron ball on the end."
At the point of impact everything becomes taunt. Kinda like wiping a chain out and when it comes to the end of the line becomes taunt.
Of course i've always been comfortable with relaxing and then exploding to tense just feels right to me. I'm sure everyone has a theory on how its to be done though.

[SAAMAG]

Yep, I too use the analogy of ball and chain. Stay relaxed as possible and tense up at the moment of impact. Goes for punches and kicks.

[k gledhill]

too us the fok sao HAND is the loose fist for drilling that becomes the tight fist in the short distance to impact into the body/head of our partners.....we allow the contact often to judge if its good or not, lat sao chit chung etc...no hesitating we make contact to develop a snese of timing and distances when fighting ..in chi-sao drills...not talking about the elbow now :D



after a strike from jum sao when its aimed at your head during chi-sao over the bong, the elbow cancels , the hand is aimed at the guy for alignment ..if the alignment/elbows are out , the energy is pointing past the side of your head not at your center...

we hit wall bags from short distances to develop this fist clench unclench strike , relax, strike, relax...

fok sao helps this strike / relax idea...in drills

making tight fists does make you more of an elbow VT fighter , making you rely on your forearms more for interception as you strike constantly, rather than patty cake hands , over parrying with no attacks being made ...

[Ultimatewingchun]

Yep, I too use the analogy of ball and chain. Stay relaxed as possible and tense up at the moment of impact. Goes for punches and kicks.

***NOW this is the tricky part of what I'm trying to say on this thread: yes, ball and chain (actually I always liked the ball and string analogy the best, but whatever)...

and stay relaxed and tense up at the last moment. Right.

But what I'm saying is that it's possible to have the fist tensed but have the arm muscles relaxed until the last moment.

And it brings a whole different dynamic to punching that I've found to be optimum.

[SAAMAG]

Well, I'll try that and in application and let you know how it goes. With a tight fist, wouldn't the forearm muscles be tensed as well? When I tense my fist, I can keep all relaxed except the ulnar side of the forearm muscle.

[Ultimatewingchun]

I heard Moy Yat describe it once like this:

the hand is tight up to the lower wrist area - and no further.

It's the kind of thing you really need to work with for awhile, and probably shadow boxing with it in combinations is best, in the beginning. I do alot of that even now. It's really a "feeling" thing, like chi sao. The whole idea of relaxed but with power in chi sao just seems to "come" by itself - if it comes at all. Some people never get it; and even when you do, you can lose it under pressure without certain mental "attributes", imo.

The same with this method of punching.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Try working a speed bag using conventional notions of relaxation and then use this other method. You will find that the conventional notion is faster. Moreover, using the conventional notions of relaxation it should become apparent that your punches are more powerful and sink more deeply into the bag.

Also, if KE=1/2*m*v^2 holds true then speed is the an important determinant in generating high energy strikes.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Also, the forearms contain muscles that can resist the triceps just like the biceps. It is important to keep them relaxes as possible before an impact.

I hate when some famous master makes an offhand remark and people have to find meaning in it. Anyone considering that Yip was wrong?

[SAAMAG]

I heard Moy Yat describe it once like this:

the hand is tight up to the lower wrist area - and no further.

It's the kind of thing you really need to work with for awhile, and probably shadow boxing with it in combinatiions is best, in the beginning. I do alot of that even now. It's really a "feeling" thing, like chi sao. The whole idea of relaxed but with power in chi sao just seems to "come" by itself - if it comes at all. Some people never get it; and even when you do, you can lose it under pressure without certain mental "attributes", imo.

The same with this method of punching.

I mean from a physiological standpoint the tightening of the fist comes inherent with tightening of forearm muscles. Now you can tense the fist to just below the threshhold of obvious flexion in the forearm, but cannot be devoid of it if you're truly squeezing the fist tight

[Ultimatewingchun]

I'm not saying that the tensing of the hand/lower wrist area won't tense the forearm muscles somewhat....but what I am saying is that the actual punching power is increased with this method - while sacrificing very little speed.

Why does it enhance punching power?

Because your striking surface is "harder" (ie.- more concentrated) right form the beginning - so when the final "tensing" is added at the end - your striking surface is even "harder" - if you can follow that. Hard to explain in words - you've got to work with it.

And the added punching power - while still in conjunction with very good speed - can make for some serious punching combinations...the effect being to enhance your game in terms of the amount of damage you can do with wing chun striking.

I might also add that I believe the same method can enhance other types of punches as well (boxing leads, crosses, hooks, overhands, uppercuts)....enhance in terms of power and speed.

[YungChun]

Yip wasn't "wrong" in telling his student to keep his fist tight when he fought.. This is underscored by how many noobs and even pros break their hands in a fight..

As far as timing when to make the fist tight, is another issue.. Folks who try to keep the fist loose and then tighten it just as they impact will find their timing often lacking and their hand broken.

I find that making the fist extra tight on impact useful, the arm normally relaxed, but at times I also focus on driving through the target...

Another issue is that folks who make fists sometimes have trouble converting back to open hands.. The fist is primal and once we make fists, which can lead to tenseness of the mind, we tend to keep them (fists).. Folks who want to use fists (not everyone does these days) should work on converting from closed to open hands and back..

BTW Victor: Mickey and MY were still teaching it that way in my day.. "Rock and a string" in my case.

[Phil Redmond]

There's also an internal reason for keeping the fist tight during the forms and while fighting.

[YungChun]

I'm not saying that the tensing of the hand/lower wrist area won't tense the forearm muscles somewhat....but what I am saying is that the actual punching power is increased with this method - while sacrificing very little speed.


I always saw this as not just hitting with the fist (the part in motion) but rather hitting with the fist and forearm as one object.. Not including body power.. So the fist and forearm then become like a large (mass) arrow, (or what the A1-M1 fires) much larger and heavier than a mere fist.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Exactly, Phil...(and Yung Chun)...

Internally you just feel more power and energy coming forth with this method, imo.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Yip wasn't "wrong" in telling his student to keep his fist tight when he fought..

The only way that that comment could be even close to correct is if he were giving a student with too many problems to fix in a short time some "good enough" tips to get by. As a general way to approach fighting the advice is shoddy.



This is underscored by how many noobs and even pros break their hands in a fight..

Fiction



As far as timing when to make the fist tight, is another issue.. Folks who try to keep the fist loose and then tighten it just as they impact will find their timing often lacking and their hand broken.

I have never seen nor heard of such an injury in 23 years of training. I would be shocked if you could get another person to state that they have seen such injuries.




I find that making the fist extra tight on impact useful, the arm normally relaxed, but at times I also focus on driving through the target...

Making the fist tight prematurely does not increase penetration of a punch.



Another issue is that folks who make fists sometimes have trouble converting back to open hands.. The fist is primal and once we make fists, which can lead to tenseness of the mind, we tend to keep them (fists).. Folks who want to use fists (not everyone does these days) should work on converting from closed to open hands and back..
.
We are discussing keeping the hands in a relaxed fist versus a tight fist rather than open hand versus tight fist.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Originally Posted by YungChun
"As far as timing when to make the fist tight, is another issue.. Folks who try to keep the fist loose and then tighten it just as they impact will find their timing often lacking and their hand broken."
....................

"I have never seen nor heard of such an injury in 23 years of training. I would be shocked if you could get another person to state that they have seen such injuries." (HumbleWCguy)
.................................

***PERHAPS not broken, but hurting your hand/fingers/wrist on impact - as well as lack of good timing - have definitely been in evidence, ime...I've seen this many times.

Having to stop and reload, so to speak (closing/tightening the fist) every time you see or sense an opening to strike will definitely adversely affect ones timing, ie.- it will slow you down...

like not having a trigger c o c k e d when using a gun.

[HumbleWCGuy]

***PERHAPS not broken, but hurting your hand/fingers/wrist on impact - as well as lack of good timing - have definitely been in evidence, ime...I've seen this many times.

That's probably reasonable



Having to stop and reload, so to speak (closing/tightening the fist) every time you see or sense an opening to strike will definitely adversely affect ones timing, ie.- it will slow you down...

like not having a trigger c o c k e d when using a gun.

Your analogy set me to wondering. I was thinking more in line with accuracy might be affected. Pulling a trigger tends to change the gun aim. A tight fist would seem to make punches slower but going from relaxed to tight might affect accuracy. Is the trade-off worth it for some either way? That's an interesting debate if you ask me.

[YungChun]

The only way that that comment could be even close to correct is if he were giving a student with too many problems to fix in a short time some "good enough" tips to get by. As a general way to approach fighting the advice is shoddy.

So Yip should not have said to keep his fist tight?:confused:



I have never seen nor heard of such an injury in 23 years of training. I would be shocked if you could get another person to state that they have seen such injuries.

Anyone who knows the stats of real encounters knows that hand injuries are commonplace among fist users, esp, boxers and noobs.. This is one of the very reasons many modern tactical trainers don't train fists..:rolleyes::cool:



***PERHAPS not broken, but hurting your hand/fingers/wrist on impact - as well as lack of good timing - have definitely been in evidence, ime...I've seen this many times.


"Are you shocked, Mr. Williams?"



Making the fist tight prematurely does not increase penetration of a punch.

I never said it did.:confused:



We are discussing keeping the hands in a relaxed fist versus a tight fist rather than open hand versus tight fist.
Nice! :cool:

[Dragonzbane76]

Anyone who knows the stats of real encounters knows that hand injuries are commonplace among fist users, esp, boxers and noobs.. This is one of the very reasons many modern tactical trainers don't train fists..

I wouldn't say they are common place. They happen. Most people that have never boxed just make stupid mistakes like not wrapping the hands properly or over extention. Don't really understand your status on it your comment was kinda vague.

[sanjuro_ronin]

In Boxing you are taught to keep the fist loose while it is up guarding you and tighten it after you throw the punch.
Note I say AFTER, not before, perhaps during is a better word.
You don't tighten before because it slows it down and you don't tighten it at the moment of impact because,well, not only does the opponent move but since you are punching THROUGH something ( ribs for example) you need to be "tight" before you make impact and follow through.
Tight is perhaps the wrong word, some guys hit hard with a "semi-closed" fist, like the Baji guys, perhaps "tense" is better or at least make sure the fist is not "loose".

[HumbleWCGuy]

Another important thing to consider is that if you keep your hand tight all the while for a long fight, you run the risk of injuring your hand as you tire.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Old time boxing coaches used to train the fist formation ( and how tight to hold it) with a roll of dimes ( for tightness) and an egg ( for loseness).
Holding the egg taught you how to keep your hand relaxed yet firm and sometimes you would even hit with the egg to get an idea of "tense yet loose".
The roll of coins taught you how crucial a "tight" fist was and showed you the difference in impact when you hit with a supported fist VS an unsupported one.

[m1k3]

Along the lines of what Sanjuro said. It is possible to ROLL your fist tight without squeezing it tight. What I mean by that is as you close the fist pull the fingertips in so they are touching the calusus on your palms at the base of your fingers and then roll the fist. It is not a squeez or a clench but just getting rid of the empty space that can develop in the fist.

[HumbleWCGuy]

So Yip should not have said to keep his fist tight?:confused:

It is bad advice. He should have told him to stay out of trouble and train more.



Anyone who knows the stats of real encounters knows that hand injuries are commonplace among fist users, esp, boxers and noobs.. This is one of the very reasons many modern tactical trainers don't train fists..:rolleyes::cool:

You don't know what you are talking about. You said that people break their hands because of the inability of people to close the fist quickly enough. That just doesn't happen. I have never seen it in martial arts and neither have you. If a fighter lacks the skill to make a tight fist at the point of impact the fighter has no skill.

Open hands are preferred by tactical trainers because:
-Palm strikes are less likely to inspire tales of police brutality
-Women with nails cannot make fists
-Fists can break for other reason not related to your contrived one.

[JPinAZ]

Along the lines of what Sanjuro said. It is possible to ROLL your fist tight without squeezing it tight. What I mean by that is as you close the fist pull the fingertips in so they are touching the calusus on your palms at the base of your fingers and then roll the fist. It is not a squeez or a clench but just getting rid of the empty space that can develop in the fist.

Bingo! And IMO this goes with what Victor is saying. You can have a tight fist without ultra-tight forearms.

I have added calluses just below the normal callus pads from dip gwat gung training while rolling the fingers into tight fists. Forearms do become 'somewhat' tense to hold the shape, but not fully-flexed by any means.

[YungChun]

It is bad advice. He should have told him to stay out of trouble and train more.

It's not bad advice...it's basics.. This isn't about morality..



You don't know what you are talking about. You said that people break their hands because of the inability of people to close the fist quickly enough. That just doesn't happen. I have never seen it in martial arts and neither have you. If a fighter lacks the skill to make a tight fist at the point of impact the fighter has no skill.

No, you have no clue..

Victor came right in with confirmation..

I am not talking about in training, and I am talking about a lack of a tight fist as one of the reasons folks damage their hands..if you actually read what I wrote..

This is in real encounters (as I wrote) in the street and it is but one of the reasons modern tactical trainers don't teach fists... That is reality..



Open hands are preferred by tactical trainers because:
-Palm strikes are less likely to inspire tales of police brutality
-Women with nails cannot make fists
-Fists can break for other reason not related to your contrived one.

My contrived reason? It's common sense and something most any beginning student is told over and over, to keep the fist fight when they strike..at least on this planet.

Another reason palms are taught is because unlike a fist, when impacting a hard target they don't break and/or damage fingers like fists do.. Even a neophyte noob knows that..


I wouldn't say they are common place. They happen. Most people that have never boxed just make stupid mistakes like not wrapping the hands properly or over extention. Don't really understand your status on it your comment was kinda vague.

Hand injuries are common in street fights.. Tyson is a well known example.. Boxers get used to hand wraps and gloves.. A boxer buddy of mine just told me the other day he hates fighting without gloves because he hurts his hands..

Most folks have only marginal skill, it should not be surprising at all that hand injuries in real encounters (not dojo playtime) are common for many reasons and especially when using fists or worse too loose fists--a habit non/light contact training ensures..btw

This is all old news..

[HumbleWCGuy]

It's not bad advice...it's basics.. This isn't about morality..


No, you have no clue..

Victor came right in with confirmation..

I am not talking about in training, and I am talking about a lack of a tight fist as one of the reasons folks damage their hands..if you actually read what I wrote..

This is in real encounters (as I wrote) in the street and it is but one of the reasons modern tactical trainers don't teach fists... That is reality..


My contrived reason? It's common sense and something most any beginning student is told over and over, to keep the fist fight when they strike..at least on this planet.

Another reason palms are taught is because unlike a fist, when impacting a hard target they don't break and/or damage fingers like fists do.. Even a neophyte noob knows that..


Hand injuries are common in street fights.. Tyson is a well known example.. Boxers get used to hand wraps and gloves.. A boxer buddy of mine just told me the other day he hates fighting without gloves because he hurts his hands..

Most folks have only marginal skill, it should not be surprising at all that hand injuries in real encounters (not dojo playtime) are common for many reasons and especially when using fists or worse too loose fists--a habit non/light contact training ensures..btw

This is all old news..

Dude... you are trying to make 2+2 = 5. Here is bit of your logic.

Boxers hold the fist lose until impact. A Boxer broke his hand during a street fight. Therefore, boxers break their hand because they hold the fist loose until the point of impact.

The problem is that no on has ever even heard of a broken hand because of the "loose until the point of impact practice." Hand break because boxers can punch hard and hit with the incorrect striking surface.

[YouKnowWho]

"Hold the fist tight."
When you hold your fist tight, you lose the chance to change your loose fist into a grab. That means you have just define yourself as a striker and not a grappler. This kind of self restriction will not be to your advantage IMO.

Our hands are not designed for punching only. we can use our hands for grabbing as well (that's why we have fingers). Our hands can perform 50 different functions. A tight fist just eliminate all thos 50 different functions.

[m1k3]

OMG!! You are right. i was sitting here watching basketball and reading your post and I tried an experiment. I clenched my fist real tight and reached for my soda, and I couldn't grab it! There was no way to grab the soda!



Unless of course I unclenched my fist, but most people would never think of doing that when trying to grab something. :rolleyes:

[YungChun]

Dude... you are trying to make 2+2 = 5. Here is bit of your logic.

Boxers hold the fist lose until impact. A Boxer broke his hand during a street fight. Therefore, boxers break their hand because they hold the fist loose until the point of impact.

The problem is that no on has ever even heard of a broken hand because of the "loose until the point of impact practice." Hand break because boxers can punch hard and hit with the incorrect striking surface.

Dude can you read? I did not write that, that's what's in your head.

I wrote that boxers and others often injure their hands because they are used to wearing hand wraps and gloves and when they don't have them things sometimes break... Why do they "hit with the incorrect striking surface"? Because they are used to wearing gloves and wraps and relying on them for protection..

If you want to suggest that fists are not more susceptible to injury than open hands that's fine by me but it contradicts all the evidence. FACT: The hands are one of, if not the most common injuries in street fights involving the use of fists.

Many students and martial artists train poorly.. As a result the fist conditioning is not up to par and neither is their experience in using the fists properly.. This combined with the nature of the fist is what makes them more susceptible to injury..

Moreover I don't think that Victor is saying that you must keep the fists tight all the time, as in every moment, rather he seems to be saying that one is better off making that fist tight well before impact... This is a safer bet esp for noobs who are more likely to get injuries trying to get fancy with loose until the last nanosecond fists..

You disagree and think fists should be loose and don't cause injuries? Fine by me, I disagree.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Dude can you read? I did not write that, that's what's in your head.

I wrote that boxers and others often injure their hands because they are used to wearing hand wraps and gloves and when they don't have them things sometimes break... Why do they "hit with the incorrect striking surface"? Because they are used to wearing gloves and wraps and relying on them for protection..

THat's not what you said and if you did it would only severe to defeat your hypothesis that boxers break their hands because the hold them relaxed until impact.



If you want to suggest that fists are not more susceptible to injury than open hands that's fine by me but it contradicts all the evidence. FACT: The hands are one of, if not the most common injuries in street fights involving the use of fists.

I never said that. I am just pointing out that there are other reasons why tactical trainers teach palm rather than fists and it has nothing to do with holding the fist lose until the point of impact.




Many students and martial artists train poorly.. As a result the fist conditioning is not up to par and neither is their experience in using the fists properly.. This combined with the nature of the fist is what makes them more susceptible to injury..
.
Never the less, the the injuries don't seem to be a result of a lose fist in the onguard position.



Moreover I don't think that Victor is saying that you must keep the fists tight all the time, as in every moment, rather he seems to be saying that one is better off making that fist tight well before impact... This is a safer bet esp for noobs who are more likely to get injuries trying to get fancy with loose until the last nanosecond fists..

If you hold your fist tight in the on-guard and tight at the piont of impact, when is the opportunity for the fist to be lose?

[YungChun]

THat's not what you said and if you did it would only severe to defeat your hypothesis that boxers break their hands because the hold them relaxed until impact.


Go ahead and find the quote where I stated this "hypothesis about boxers.."

[Ultimatewingchun]

"If you hold your fist tight in the on-guard and tight at the point of impact, when is the opportunity for the fist to be loose?" (HumbleWCGuy)
..............................

***WHEN you need it to be.

What I'm saying is that holding the fist tight in the on guard position (and btw, I believe the arms/hands should be in motion and not just static even when in on guard)...

and then your arm muscles seriously tighten at the moment of impact...

does not mean that you can't open your fists at virtually any time when you want to pak, lop/grab, bong, garn, whatever...

but keeping the hands in pretty tight fists (but the arm muscles are still loose) optimizes power and accuracy about where you want your punches to land, gives up very little speed, and helps to prevent injuries...and yes...helps train the proper way to land a punch at the very spots on your knuckles where you want them to be impacted.

And it also does something else that I've intimated at in earlier posts: it puts/keeps you in a mental state of HITTING....and hitting HARD.

[Phil Redmond]

OMG!! You are right. i was sitting here watching basketball and reading your post and I tried an experiment. I clenched my fist real tight and reached for my soda, and I couldn't grab it! There was no way to grab the soda!



Unless of course I unclenched my fist, but most people would never think of doing that when trying to grab something. :rolleyes:
Where in South Jersey are you? We have a school in Mt. Laurel. You're welcome to come and visit.

[k gledhill]

I have used open hand strikes to the exposed forehead /crown of aguys head as he's come for 'the good news' :D I learned from sparring with NO hand protection that knuckles get hurt easy when they meet the skull....I have also met MANY , including actually being involved with a 'boxer' in a fight [ he was on my side :D] when he hurt his hand hitting a guy er, once or twice, ....in self defense ;) After the fight outside we went back into the bar and I showed him the alignment of the 3 knuckles at once with wrist elbow etc...and slammed the wall several times...he was impressed .
I know that knuckles lose against hard foreheads so use a open palm to heads if they come low like a bad shoot, tring to use their lead outstretched arm/hand to grab me to ...control... me :D:D lmafao control me !! control this !! [batman time] KAPOW, SHAZAM..[dod baytman do shazam ?} WHOP ! , BLAM, and thats just facing off with them !! :D:D:D..I get them laughing hysterically before we fight ;) :D


gloves are to protect the hands from the head , not the head...plus they reduce the cutting of the bare knuckles making for bad TV and blood gets slippery , so everyone will be in a bloodfest sliding around not being able to get a grip.....old bare-knuckle trick to deal with high punches was to head butt them..easy... hand broken/damaged. In VT we fightbare handed, we condition the fists, palms, etc.....we always have palms to use , elbows, knees...lan sao's etc..

[k gledhill]

I have used open hand strikes to the exposed forehead /crown of aguys head as he's come for 'the good news' :D , guys hold their heads in both hands and stand up ...kind of like .." okay I =ve had enough" [ one hit ; ) is all it takes]
I learned from sparring with NO hand protection, that knuckles get hurt easy when they meet the skull....I have also met MANY , including actually being involved with a 'boxer' in a fight [ he was on my side :D] when he hurt his hand hitting a guy er, once or twice, ....in self defense ;) After the fight outside we went back into the bar and I showed him the alignment of the 3 knuckles at once with wrist elbow etc...and slammed the wall several times...he was impressed .
I know that knuckles can lose against hard foreheads sometimes from personal experience, so use a open palm to heads if they come low like a bad shoot... trying to use their lead outstretched arm/hand to grab me to ...control... me :D:D lmafao control me !! control this !! [batman time] KAPOW, SHAZAM..[did batman do shazam ?} WHALOP [english batman] ! , BLAM, and thats just facing off with them !! :D:D:D..I get them laughing hysterically before we fight ;) :D but I digress...

I once hit a guy outside a club entrance for a worthy cause Im sure ...he made a move...so I sent the 'good news ' in and he instinctively , flinched dropping his head..I hit his fdorehead with a loud SLAP !! even another bouncer behind me said my name out loud ...YOU BASTAR&! [all my friends call me you ******* [ hah ] but I didnt get a broken small knuckle etc...mainly becase of the share3d surface of the 3 hitting...so I threw him down a flight of stairs instead...improvising....as you do....you learn a lot hitting people for real with no gloves ...my 'practical' studies of applied VT...


gloves are to protect the hands from the head , not the head...plus they reduce the cutting of the bare knuckles making for bad TV and blood gets slippery , so everyone will be in a bloodfest sliding around not being able to get a grip.....old bare-knuckle trick to deal with high punches was to head butt them..easy... hand broken/damaged. In VT we fightbare handed, we condition the fists, palms, etc.....we always have palms to use , elbows, knees...lan sao's etc..

Gloves imho tend to lend themselves to losing the VT bare hand techniques...we dont NEED gloves.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"I know that knuckles lose against hard foreheads so use a open palm to heads if they come low like a bad shoot, trying to use their lead outstretched arm/hand to grab me to ...control...me" (k gledhill)
....................

***THIS IS TRUE.

[tigershorty]

or maybe yip man had sense of humor and was stating the obvious. you gonna get in a fight? you gonna punch someone? hey, keep the fist tight.

[k gledhill]

Having worked for over 10 years in security work clubs bars etc...I also had the opportunity to 'watch' like peter sellers ..." I Like To Watch " and have seen guys get in arguments and then cross a whole street to hit a guy only to land a 'sloppy slap' on contact....miss completely and spin around etc...

Yip Man implied , imo to strike with a firm closed hand....not loose fist..we call this a sparring fist, we make contact to each other with bare hands to make sure we have fighting distances and can 'reach' to hit with force or its a patty cake fest....



If I want to hurt you I 'firm up' and 'speed up'....and drive the knuckles into you and out the back of you...force transfer..if I DONT want to hurt you I open the hand ...simple but takes dummy training and years of chi-sao to get calm enough to not 'freak out striking' in drills ...

Alignment of the hand/knuckles is key..plus knowing the limits of the small contact point against a big incoming load , like a heavy bag...you WILL hurt your wrists if the alignment is off..so time spent hitting the wall bags is key to be able to really slam a guy in the face with confidence you wont hurt or feel the impact...I have seen my fist go into guys faces as we fight but not felt the hit, just seen the guys fall back or slide away on their arses...I wondered if I was desensitizing [sp?] my knuckles ...leading to arthritis..but at 50 years old now. im ok with knuckles..no pain or tingling etc...they still get bruised once in a while from wall bag strikes.

as a BTW when I learned from A direct student of Yip Man , Victor Kan, the very first thing before stance etc...was to make a proper VT fist...

roll finger tips into the center of your palm as tight as they will close, but not 'stupid tight' then fold the thumb over the index finger and 1/2 way across the second finger of '**** you'.. the little finger isnt 'rolled' into the palm , rather held tight so all the knuckle line up flat ...not so you make a phoenix knuckle etc.....YOU can do anything so a phoenix knuckle into the intercostal muscles of the ribs can get results..

the fist is vertical due to the elbows, more like an uppercut angle...

[YungChun]

Yip Man implied , imo to strike with a firm closed hand....not loose fist..we call this a sparring fist, we make contact to each other with abre hands to make sure we have fighting distances and can 'reach' to hit with force or its a patty cake fest....

EXACTLY. And this is a common problem/error, especially for certain styles/methods and folks with little hard contact experience...

This is like karate 101.. Basic stuff..

[k gledhill]

boxers tend to hit with open hands due to the wraps inside big gloves ..so if they fight bare handed they havent trained to 'firm up' the hand the same way we do....and the alignment ..plus head hitting with gloves will make you think you can do it without them too :o bare handed...when did a boxer learn use a palm strike ?

[Ultimatewingchun]

Once did chi sao with Victor Kan, as he also visited Moy Yat's Chinatown school. He was very good.

Disagree about the thumb, though....William Cheung teaches to only fold it over the first finger (by the knuckle) - and don't go deep enough to enter the space of the second finger at all. I like that alignment better....all four knuckles (other than the thumb, of course)...seem to line up much straighter.

And yeah, hitting things like wall bags is very important in this regard, as is the wooden dummy. My favorite, though...is putting on pretty thin semi-fingerless gloves and punching the heavy bag.

As well as kicking it, and using knees and elbows also.

But for a close-to-hitting-a-human feeling...I believe the heavy bag is the best.

You really get to see and feel what works - and what hurts your wrists, your fingers, what scrapes your knuckles, etc.

[k gledhill]

we can agree on the thumb then, it may be my big thumbs :D whether it covers the second finger or not ...? depends on the thumb.

[CFT]

You'd have an abnormally small thumb if the thumbtip didn't reach the middle finger on a clenhed fist.

If your thumbtip only comes as far as the index finger then your 1st thumb knuckle (distal interphalangeal joint?) would stick out a bit from the top of the fist (viewed straight on).

[goju]

huh thats a very interesting way to position your thumb:)

[CFT]

^^
Not as iinteresting as the hikuta punch: http://hikuta.blogspot.com/2007/12/what-is-hikuta-fist.html

[SAAMAG]

So then all Victor is talking about is using a properly formed (tight) fist--not a squeezed fist. This is---like he said learnt by hitting things (bag, wall, dummy, etc).

This is something quite fundamental IMO though. You find out real quick if you're not doing it when you hit stuff. The only time I wear gloves is when I'm hitting the heavy bag for prolonged periods of time and typically using boxing or muay thai. If I'm using wing chun on the heavy bag, I'll go using just thinly wrapped hands or tapped knuckles to eliminate skin tear. The dummy and wall bags I go bare fist.

But I think there's where a lot of the misconception was at the onset of the thread. If you properly roll your fist, it will be tight and the forearm loose because you're not "squeezing" as if to crush somethng. I originally thought he was talking about the latter, which the byproduct would be the tensed forearm.

Makes sense.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Go ahead and find the quote where I stated this "hypothesis about boxers.."

It is a summary of your comments that were not irrelevant.

[HumbleWCGuy]

"If you hold your fist tight in the on-guard and tight at the point of impact, when is the opportunity for the fist to be loose?" (HumbleWCGuy)
..............................

***WHEN you need it to be.

What I'm saying is that holding the fist tight in the on guard position (and btw, I believe the arms/hands should be in motion and not just static even when in on guard)...

and then your arm muscles seriously tighten at the moment of impact...

does not mean that you can't open your fists at virtually any time when you want to pak, lop/grab, bong, garn, whatever...

but keeping the hands in pretty tight fists (but the arm muscles are still loose) optimizes power and accuracy about where you want your punches to land, gives up very little speed, and helps to prevent injuries...and yes...helps train the proper way to land a punch at the very spots on your knuckles where you want them to be impacted.

And it also does something else that I've intimated at in earlier posts: it puts/keeps you in a mental state of HITTING....and hitting HARD.

It slows the reaction and causes movements to be stiffer than they should, but if you are satisfied with the trade-off, I have no problem with it.

[YungChun]

It is a summary of your comments that were not irrelevant.

Never said it.. It came from inside your head--it was never my position.. Try reading/quoting instead of inferring and assuming..:rolleyes:

[YungChun]

So then all Victor is talking about is using a properly formed (tight) fist--not a squeezed fist.


Same here.. The difference between a karate fist (seiken) and a WCK fist.. The WCK fist is more square..

[sanjuro_ronin]

Same here.. The difference between a karate fist (seiken) and a WCK fist.. The WCK fist is more square..

That's cause WC lacks the coolness factor of Karate !
:D

[YungChun]

That's cause WC lacks the coolness factor of Karate !
:D

Depends on what cool is I guess.. I always felt the WCK method at least as cool if not way cooler, but it depends on the person.. Like the fists, they are different animals, and in some cases karate is still trying to figure out what animal it is... ;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Depends on what cool is I guess.. I always felt the WCK method at least as cool if not way cooler, but it depends on the person.. Like the fists, they are different animals, and in some cases karate is still trying to figure out what animal it is... ;)

WC has nothing this cool !
http://www.dvdasian.com/images/synopsis_062008/19569.ss2.JPG

[Phil Redmond]

WC has nothing this cool !
http://www.dvdasian.com/images/synopsis_062008/19569.ss2.JPG
Depends on the WC. ;) btw, "fighter in the wind" is a great movie.

[Ultimatewingchun]

So "Hold the fist tight" came from my Moy Yat days...and one of the things what I have described does - is that it makes you very fight/hit/hit hard ready...

And here's another thing that adds to that mindset, this time from William Cheung:

Keep your mouth closed (so that you always breathe through the nose) - with the tip of your tongue touching the roof of your palate (mouth)....

this provides another "internal" feeling that has to be experienced in order to truly understand it...again, like I said in a previous post, helping to concentrate your mental and physiological ability to generate power, energy, and force...

yes, I believe, this can actually help to enhance one's internal mental focus and concentration...

and with another synchronous benefit: with the tongue in this position - the force of gravity will bring your saliva downward, helping to lubricate your throat and internal organs and keep them vitalized as you perform extreme actions.

And last but not least, this helps to prevent you from biting your own tongue in the heat of battle.

[Phil Redmond]

Keeping the mouth closed tightly with clinched teeth can also prevent a broken jaw. ;)

[Ultimatewingchun]

I wouldn't recommend clenching the teeth tightly in a conscious fashion - as you could possibly damage your own teeth during the heat of battle with too much intensity...

in fact, the tongue should be placed so that the tip (more-or-less)...gently touches the roof of your palate just behind your upper row of teeth.

[Sihing73]

I wouldn't recommend clenching the teeth tightly in a conscious fashion - as you could possibly damage your own teeth during the heat of battle with too much intensity...

in fact, the tongue should be placed so that the tip gently (more-or-less) touches the roof of your palate.

I am almost at the age where I can take my teeth out and put them somewhere in safety while I fight :D

Hmmmmm gives me an idea, what if I put my teeth in my hand, not clenched too tightly ;) and use them to "bite" my opponent :p Now that could be COOL!!

[Ultimatewingchun]

Or you could call up Mike Tyson and he could give a seminar in your town...
(you could be the host)...wherein he'll teach biting technique without having to remove one's dentures. :cool:

[Matrix]

That's cause WC lacks the coolness factor of Karate !
:DI'm dating myself a little here, but didn't Huey Lewis and The News do a song called "Hip to be Square" :)

[Matrix]

EXACTLY. And this is a common problem/error, especially for certain styles/methods and folks with little hard contact experience...

This is like karate 101.. Basic stuff.. "Basic stuff" is like "common sense", ....... not so common.

[Matrix]

Depends on the WC. ;) .Exactly Phil.:cool:

[sanjuro_ronin]

Depends on the WC. ;) btw, "fighter in the wind" is a great movie.

I agree, but of course, I am bias.
:D

[weakstudent]

even when the hands are in a tight fist, you can still break them when fighting, pro boxer know how to make a proper fist but still break their hands. its almost always because they hit a bony part of the body like the top of the head and elbows remember they also wrap their hands to help them with breaking and jamming the thumb and wrist

[Ultimatewingchun]

...entitled "THE KO PUNCH!"

From: JeffJoslin
Posted: 23 hours ago Member Since: 11/22/05
Posts: 267

Jeff Joslin is a former mma fighter who trained in boxing, wrestling, and BJJ.

CHECK OUT THIS FIRST POST ON JOSLIN'S THREAD:

I just finished writing --took a few weeks-- my report titled "Developing the KO Punch" which shares 12 different principles that will have you hitting harder than ever.

It's always nice to win a fight in the first round with a quick KO and hit the after party instead of the hospital.

Enjoy!

Here's Tip #7:

Stay Relaxed and Loose

A relaxed strike is a powerful strike. That concept is simple to grasp but very difficult to put into action. When anger, fear, fatigue and other emotions kick in during a fight, the body often tenses up making ultra-powerful punching very difficult. A fighter’s lack of experience or lack of technical training often results in them throwing stiff, slow, laboured punches. Even worse the telegraphed punches they attack with are usually thrown by themselves, not within a combination that could drastically increase any chances of scoring a knockout.

In training, think of your arm as two different parts, the fist and the arm. The arm must take on the attributes of a piece of rope, hanging loose as it swings to and from your upper body. Alternately the fist must tighten, with its thumb on the outside, remaining clenched as if it were an iron ball hanging from that rope. At first you will find this extremely challenging to do and you’ll quickly realize that it’s going to take a lot of practice and focus to get things just right. As you tighten your hand you will often feel your entire arm tighten and vice versa with your hand becoming too loose when you allow your arm to relax. Just keep trying!

You’ll know when you get it right because you will instantly multiply the power of you punch and lessen the amount of effort it takes to throw it. That’s when your true punching power will begin to emerge.

[Ultimatewingchun]

That was exactly what I was trying to say on this thread.

[sanjuro_ronin]

It isn't possible to tighten the hand without tensing the forearm muscles, you knwo that right?
I think you mean to Tighten the fist "just enough".

Like when you punch with something in your hand, like a roll of quarters, you hold them just tight enough not to let go.

[Ultimatewingchun]

I stated that much earlier on this thread: the arm muscles will tighten slightly - but with practice this can be held to a minimum.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I stated that much earlier on this thread: the arm muscles will tighten slightly - but with practice this can be held to a minimum.

Every boxing coach had their favorite way of expressing the tight fist, but the uniform view was always "tight enough not to collapse under impact".
It's more about the wrist than the fist anyways, if there is a weak link, its the wrist.

[YungChun]

To me the fist and forearm become a unit, like an arrow..a nail, or like what an A1-M1 tank fires..a titanium rod.. We lock the wrist up for maximum stability, and like a nail, the body is the hammer.

[Ultimatewingchun]

To me the fist and forearm become a unit, like an arrow..a nail, or like what an A1-M1 tank fires..a titanium rod.. We lock the wrist up for maximum stability, and like a nail, the body is the hammer.

***YOU just brought back a Moy Yat memory, Jim/Yung Chun...

One of the early New York students of Moy Yat was Jason Lau's brother (if I remember right, his first name was Robert)...and I can distinctly remember a conversation between Robert and Moy Yat waay back in my first few months at the school (I stayed for 8 years)...

and Robert was asking about what parts of the fist/arm should be held tight while throwing the punches...before impact...while the remainder of the arm remains loose.

Moy Yat said it was the entire hand and up to (and including) about an inch or so past the wristbone going up the arm.

I've always agreed with that as the years went on and I got more-and-more familiar with throwing wing chun punches...and then when I heard William Cheung add a dimension to this when he said that "you push from the elbow"...

I got an even clearer picture.

[Ultimatewingchun]

...but a nice take by this guy Jeff Joslin about how to throw a jab:

"Hey Mountain Medic,

Do you mean stepping in with the jab then stepping out of range immediately? If so, try stepping in on the ball of your front foot instead of the entire sole. This will give you the ability to drive yourself back to your original position easily and quick.

When stepping in with your front foot keep you back foot planted where it is, not moving it forward, so that you can return to your stance with good distance between you and your opponent."
.............

***GOOD STUFF.

[k gledhill]

***YOU just brought back a Moy Yat memory, Jim/Yung Chun...

One of the early New York students of Moy Yat was Jason Lau's brother (if I remember right, his first name was Robert)...and I can distinctly remember a conversation between Robert and Moy Yat waay back in my first few months at the school (I stayed for 8 years)...

and Robert was asking about what parts of the fist/arm should be held tight while throwing the punches...before impact...while the remainder of the arm remains loose.

Moy Yat said it was the entire hand and up to (and including) about an inch or so past the wristbone going up the arm.

I've always agreed with that as the years went on and I got more-and-more familiar with throwing wing chun punches...and then when I heard William Cheung add a dimension to this when he said that "you push from the elbow"...

I got an even clearer picture.

strike by elbows low pushing out, yes. We should all do exactly that.

[Ultimatewingchun]

of Jeff Joslin, who I quoted earlier about how to stay loose but with a closed fist when punching...and about how to throw a jab.

This guy was awesome. (He's retired now from mma fighting).

What a great boxer...awesome stiff straight lead...amazing sprawling technique when guys tried to shoot on him...great submisions.

Check it out, but for the purposes of this thread, watch how fast and powerful his straight lead hand punches are. He's got a loose arm alright - but wicked power when it lands.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LpTwJ4mOVmQ&feature=fvw