Tea Baggers and violence [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

Drake

03-27-2010, 10:43 AM

One thing I would note is that people are much more prone to resort to violence if they believe (correctly or not) that they are *retaliating* against violence done to them.

Which begs the question.. what ethical responsibility (not legal.. freedom of speech is nearly absolute in my book) do the pundits and commentators bear for convincing some of the tea party folks they are victims of an "attack"..

It's not like yelling fire in a theater.. I'm not suggesting the pundits should be legally sanctioned.. but ethically I know I would feel responsible if I egged on someone who was about to attack a third party.

The ones inciting the violence are also guilty. It's a legitimate crime called subversion. For example, if I went to a corner and yelled that everyone should take up arms against congress, and watched them storm over there, I'd be guilty of subversion.

The difficult part would be proving that they intended for this to happen. You can badmouth political figures, badmouth their policies, and even say how they are destroying the country. However, if you never bring up that they should move to overthrow the government illegally, then it wouldn't stand in court.

dimethylsea

03-27-2010, 01:41 PM

The ones inciting the violence are also guilty. It's a legitimate crime called subversion. For example, if I went to a corner and yelled that everyone should take up arms against congress, and watched them storm over there, I'd be guilty of subversion.

The difficult part would be proving that they intended for this to happen. You can badmouth political figures, badmouth their policies, and even say how they are destroying the country. However, if you never bring up that they should move to overthrow the government illegally, then it wouldn't stand in court.

As I said I think free speech should be as close to absolute (at least for citizens) as is practical, and then a good bit more.. just to make sure.
Generally those in power align themselves at least vaguely with the prevailing culture, and thus there is a significant impetus towards conformity and group-think. This impulse and habit in free societies is something we should be aware of, and a guarantee of free speech (and as absolute a one as possible) is the only practical counterweight I personally know of.
Consequently I think crimes like "subversion" are ones that should be struck down on a Constitutional basis, and moreover should be treated as legitimate political speech by free-minded peoples. Obviously this is just my opinion .. YMMV.

I am frankly far more concerned about the tendancy towards religiously-tinged demagoguery than I am by "subversion". A free and secular society can and must survive the wide application of freedom by it's constituents. It cannot co-exist with theocracy (or rather.. theocracy cannot coexist with it.. by definition).

I'm far more comfortable with "subversive speech" being fought by exercise of intellectual freedom by others than I am with any sort of application of legal process to suppress the "subversive speech".

SanHeChuan

03-29-2010, 10:44 AM

Christian militia members charged in Michigan (http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE62S40Q20100329)

According to the grand jury indictment unsealed in U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of Michigan, the eight men and one woman were members of a group called the Hutaree that planned to kill a police officer in Michigan and then ambush the law enforcement officers who attended his funeral.

Michigan "Hutaree" militia group had Tea Party connections (http://therichmonder.blogspot.com/2010/03/michigan-hutaree-militia-group-had-tea.html)

The "Hutaree" militia--eight members of which were arrested over the weekend--were Tea Partyers. Watch this video from CNN and pay attention to the footage of the group's website: they actively advertised their participation in a Tea Party event.

I'm not sure how legitimate the connection is, I can't watch the video.

Lucas

03-29-2010, 01:02 PM

i was informed this morning by a co worker about this stuff. i dont watch tv so i miss out on a lot.

im not too sure whats happening but, threatening lives? threatening to blow people up? kill people?

is this a new branch of the taliban?

same **** to me. terrorism is terrorism.

sanjuro_ronin

03-29-2010, 01:03 PM

Violent tea bagging !!
What is this world coming to?
LOL !

Lucas

03-29-2010, 01:08 PM

ok this was strange:

A couple of my clients today got in a mild clash. One man has an Obama bumper sticker on his car. The other man said he should remove the sticker.

man who is upset about the sticker comes into my office. i provide service, as he is leaving the man who owns the sticker comes in to the office. he says to the upset man 'im sorry, i couldnt make out what you said in the parking lot'

the upset man EXPLODES and says " YOU NEED TO REMOVE THAT **** BUMPER STICKER, HE IS RUINING OUR COUNTRY. YOU **** SOCIALISTS NEED TO GET OUT"

it was very obvious he lost it. his eyes read murder and a very mild an assuming man became a raging irate killer in seconds....because of a sticker.

it was a shock because I have known both men for several years. Both men, to my knowledge, are good people.

i am assuming this outburst is in connection with all this other stuff.

Lucas

03-29-2010, 01:10 PM

Violent tea bagging !!
!

man thats the only way i teabag!

David Jamieson

03-29-2010, 01:49 PM

I can only imagine the glee that Americas enemies must feel as her citizens go against each other.

How satisfying it is that one side is a bunch of racist lunatics and the other side are a bunch of socialist pinkos hell bent on make it the USSA.

I bet a dollar that if every American stopped watching TV for a week and formed their own dang opinion, none of this crap would be happening.

The media IS the message as Marshall McLuhan said. YOu better believe it. People base their entire political ideology on what they get from FOX vs what they get from CNN vs what they get from internet sites.

Think for yourself and you'll see what folly is at play. :)

Violence is an American tradition when it comes to solving problems though.
Going by it's track record, I would say that America is possibly the most violent and reactionary country on the planet.

anyway... hahahahaha@ you. :p

signed
A Canuck who don't give a f*ck about your stupid problems America.

Drake

03-29-2010, 01:58 PM

DRAGONSIHING

03-29-2010, 03:08 PM

Like many fights or arguments, lot of talk and little action of consequence.:D

David Jamieson

03-29-2010, 03:36 PM

It's not as widespread as you think. I know you come from a country with a population of 500, but there are hundreds of millions of Americans, and right now, it would seem there are less than 100 who are actually committing violence.

really? I can think of more than 100,000 of you that are committing violence at the behest of the president in the first unilateral strike against a sovereign nation that presented no actual threat to the USA.

Internally, and relative to the story at hand, yeah, there's a movement and some of it is getting moved on right now. IN the end, it will play out to a lot more than just 100 or so.

You also have licensed television stations that in a soft way support this kind of prelude to violence and possibly, the overall scenario that has been created thanks to Fox and so called "republican" think tanks and private organizations.

How American is it to plan to kill policemen and then plant bombs at their funerals?
Apparently, these "real" americans think that's ok.

You guys got some issues and me and My 499 pals that you seem to hate for pointing out your nations stupidity are just gonna chill and watch you idiots fall apart from your senseless hate and violence.

Personally, I think you're doing it wrong, but hey, I'm just me. Direct your hate up here, you don't seem to be able to do a dang thing about it where you come from. lol

DRAGONSIHING

03-30-2010, 11:37 AM

Be careful. Plenty of people down here are thinking about going up there if it gets bad enough. Or head the other way and go south. Some like heat, some like cold.

David Jamieson

03-30-2010, 11:44 AM

Be careful. Plenty of people down here are thinking about going up there if it gets bad enough. Or head the other way and go south. Some like heat, some like cold.

Canada has seen many a conscientious objector, defector, deserter, draft dodger that America has sent us.

We have some 50,000 + draft dodgers from the 60's who now call Canada home.
We also have lots of Americans who are avoiding the stop loss clause on their military contract that effectively drafts them for more tours.

I don't take issue with any of these folks because I don't believe Vietnam was a just war and I don't believe Iraq is a just war either.

So yeah, send us more of your war refugees America. lol

Your Canadian friends will shelter you from the storm of unrighteousness that has hit you in your former home. :)

Lucas

03-30-2010, 12:53 PM

Canada has seen many a conscientious objector, defector, deserter, draft dodger that America has sent us.

We have some 50,000 + draft dodgers from the 60's who now call Canada home.
We also have lots of Americans who are avoiding the stop loss clause on their military contract that effectively drafts them for more tours.

I don't take issue with any of these folks because I don't believe Vietnam was a just war and I don't believe Iraq is a just war either.

So yeah, send us more of your war refugees America. lol

Your Canadian friends will shelter you from the storm of unrighteousness that has hit you in your former home. :)

what times dinner?

:D

David Jamieson

03-30-2010, 12:59 PM

what times dinner?

:D

You'll find that with only a few exceptions that life isn't that much different north of the 49th parallel. :p

so dinners between 5 and 7 usually. 6 is the norm. :D

SanHeChuan

03-31-2010, 08:08 AM

Police: Tenn. man rams car with Obama sticker (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100330/ap_on_fe_st/us_odd_sticker_rage;_ylt=As5zsUWlzYAYY7M5N_FePznti BIF;_ylu=X3oDMTJvOHBsdGZlBGFzc2V0A2FwLzIwMTAwMzMwL 3VzX29kZF9zdGlja2VyX3JhZ2UEcG9zAzEEc2VjA3luX2FydGl jbGVfc3VtbWFyeV9saXN0BHNsawNwb2xpY2V0ZW5ubWE-)

A 70-year-old Nashville man was accused of ramming his sport utility vehicle several times into the back of a vehicle that had a Obama/Biden bumper sticker.

maybe not a teapartier per se but...

uki

03-31-2010, 10:28 AM

obama is an imposter... he is not my president... he is ****ing goon in a suit, a traitor to this country who speaks with a forked tongue dripping with malicious intent. :)

SanHeChuan

03-31-2010, 10:33 AM

obama is an imposter... he is not my president... he is ****ing goon in a suit, a traitor to this country who speaks with a forked tongue dripping with malicious intent. :)

OK David Icke :rolleyes:

sanjuro_ronin

03-31-2010, 12:33 PM

obama is an imposter... he is not my president... he is ****ing goon in a suit, a traitor to this country who speaks with a forked tongue dripping with malicious intent. :)

You shouldn't have voted for him.

DRAGONSIHING

03-31-2010, 01:34 PM

Go to DC and see one everyday. Their are people who I think make their living doing that there. Once was going to visit my wife's uncle who was working in Capitol, but couldn't get there because of protests by bluehaired old ladies and gents. People think the whole country is like what goes on there and it's not. David, if we move to Canada, does that mean we have to learn to love hockey and say eh!? Just kidding, already love hockey and have for a long time. Any famous hockey players also do martial arts?

David Jamieson

04-01-2010, 06:34 AM

You shouldn't have voted for him.

lol

.........

1bad65

04-05-2010, 07:21 AM

Reality_Check

04-05-2010, 08:21 AM

Vioence from the left isn't mentioned much. :rolleyes:

The Weathermen, Saul Alinsky, the SLA, the Black Panthers, etc have openly called for violence, robbed banks, kidnapped and murdered people, and bombed the Pentagon among other things, but the press only seem to focus on the vile 'right wing extremists'. :rolleyes:

Yeah, William Ayers didn't get mentioned at all during the last Presidential campaign.

Or maybe it's because all that stuff you mentioned happened decades ago, whereas the Hutaree arrests happened last week. Hmm...

SanHeChuan

04-05-2010, 08:59 AM

Vioence from the left isn't mentioned much.

Got any current news? ;)

1bad65

04-05-2010, 10:42 AM

Got any current news? ;)

Yeah, we should just ignore the past. :rolleyes:

"Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it"

SanHeChuan

04-05-2010, 11:27 AM

Yeah, we should just ignore the past.

You're right we shouldn't. And we shouldn't expect the news; a: report of recent events, b: priously unknown information, to rehash old stories to make what's currently happening look acceptable.

Violence by either side is not ok, but just because some lefty wackos commited acts of violence years ago does not justify the current actions of righty wackos. And it doesn't make the news bias because they report ther current violence without rehashing old stories.

David Jamieson

04-05-2010, 11:52 AM

Vioence from the left isn't mentioned much. :rolleyes:

The Weathermen, Saul Alinsky, the SLA, the Black Panthers, etc have openly called for violence, robbed banks, kidnapped and murdered people, and bombed the Pentagon among other things, but the press only seem to focus on the vile 'right wing extremists'. :rolleyes:

I wonder if it has anything to do with all that being older than moses?

Got any recent examples where it isn't right wing nut jobs doing the violence?

1bad65

04-05-2010, 12:20 PM

Violence by either side is not ok, but just because some lefty wackos commited acts of violence years ago does not justify the current actions of righty wackos. And it doesn't make the news bias because they report ther current violence without rehashing old stories.

Got any recent examples where it isn't right wing nut jobs doing the violence?

What current actions?

Are these guys bombing the Pentagon currently? Are they currently kidnapping people to rob banks? Are they currently killing cops? Are they currently causing riots at Democrat National conventions?

mawali

04-05-2010, 12:39 PM

The Weathermen, Saul Alinsky, the SLA, the Black Panthers, etc have openly called for violence, robbed banks, kidnapped and murdered people, and bombed the Pentagon among other things, but the press only seem to focus on the vile 'right wing extremists'. :rolleyes:

1. Violence for its own sake is never good! Saul Alinksy never behaved liked the group with the designated name as "Tea Baggers".
2. SLA was an outright masquerade though some of its stooges believed in fighting against the power that sought to marginalize them!
3. The era of the Black Panthers had to do with social injustice and the negation of rights and citizenship (general commentary) of African American.

Violence for its own sake is never good and it must be punished at all costs.
No one has denied civil rights and citizenship to the group known as "Tea Baggers"

www.rosie.com
NOTE: I find the BS of those Tea Baggers to be just that. I will admit that there are some excellent points they make but I distrust those hypocritical points based on the below listed commentary. I will defend their every right to behave as they do!

We had eight years of Bush and Cheney, Now you get mad!?

You didn't get mad when the Supreme Court stopped a legal recount and
appointed a President.

You didn't get mad when Cheney allowed Energy company officials to dictate
energy policy.

You didn't get mad when a covert CIA operative got outed.

You didn't get mad when the Patriot Act got passed.
You didn't get mad when we illegally invaded a country that posed no threat to us.

You didn't get mad when we spent over 600 billion(and counting) on said illegal war.

You didn't get mad when over 10 billion dollars just disappeared in Iraq.

You didn't get mad when you found out we were torturing people.

You didn't get mad when the government was illegally wiretapping Americans.

You didn't get mad when we didn't catch Bin Laden.

You didn't get mad when you saw the horrible conditions at Walter Reed.

You didn't get mad when we let a major US city, New Orleans, drown.
You didn't get mad when we gave a 900 billion tax break to the rich.

You didn't get mad when the deficit hit the trillion dollar mark.

You finally got mad when the government decided that people in America deserved the right to see a doctor if they are sick. Yes, illegal wars, lies, corruption, torture, stealing your tax dollars to make the rich richer, are all okay with you, but helping other Americans...OH HELL NO and take that to the bank.

1bad65

04-05-2010, 12:44 PM

Oh God, give us a break. :rolleyes:

I see you still blame Bush for Hurricane Katrina. It's a waste of time to try and speak rationally to someone like that.

1bad65

04-05-2010, 12:45 PM

1. Violence for its own sake is never good! Saul Alinksy never behaved liked the group with the designated name as "Tea Baggers".

Can you name ONE act of violence on par with the ones I've mentioned caused by a Tea Partier?

I'll go ahead and predict you cannot. ;)

1bad65

04-05-2010, 12:47 PM

You didn't get mad when the Patriot Act got passed.

I opposed it. So STFU about what I support and what I do not support when you don't even have the common sense to ask my postions before you talk out your ass.

David Jamieson

04-05-2010, 12:51 PM

Oh God, give us a break. :rolleyes:

I see you still blame Bush for Hurricane Katrina. It's a waste of time to try and speak rationally to someone like that.

I don't think anyone blames Bush for the Hurricane. It was his dismal failure of being able to appropriately deal with the situation when it arose that is at issue.

As for anyone of those other points, by all means, get to debunking those. I don't think you can and it is very revealing of what a pack of ignorant and racist people is at the core of the teabag movement.

Yes, they may have some good points, but it is all a wash when held to teh light of what utter and complete falseness they are propped up on.

so, again, those issues and questions for and to the teabaggers are:

We had eight years of Bush and Cheney, Now you get mad!?

You didn't get mad when the Supreme Court stopped a legal recount and
appointed a President.

You didn't get mad when Cheney allowed Energy company officials to dictate
energy policy.

You didn't get mad when a covert CIA operative got outed.

You didn't get mad when the Patriot Act got passed.
You didn't get mad when we illegally invaded a country that posed no threat to us.

You didn't get mad when we spent over 600 billion(and counting) on said illegal war.

You didn't get mad when over 10 billion dollars just disappeared in Iraq.

You didn't get mad when you found out we were torturing people.

You didn't get mad when the government was illegally wiretapping Americans.

You didn't get mad when we didn't catch Bin Laden.

You didn't get mad when you saw the horrible conditions at Walter Reed.

You didn't get mad when we let a major US city, New Orleans, drown.
You didn't get mad when we gave a 900 billion tax break to the rich.

You didn't get mad when the deficit hit the trillion dollar mark.

SanHeChuan

04-05-2010, 02:17 PM

Can you name ONE act of violence on par with the ones I've mentioned caused by a Tea Partier?

I'll go ahead and predict you cannot. ;)

Since you're pulling out random lefties, I am similarly not confined to just the Tea Party, but any right-wing terrorist, correct.

So the guy with the plane in austin could posibly qualify, as well as the intentions of the Huatree group, already mentioned. I can also bring up the far right neo-nazi's and the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum shooter, Timothy McVeigh, etc...

David Jamieson

04-05-2010, 03:19 PM

Since you're pulling out random lefties, I am similarly not confined to just the Tea Party, but any right-wing terrorist, correct.

So the guy with the plane in austin could posibly qualify, as well as the intentions of the Huatree group, already mentioned. I can also bring up the far right neo-nazi's and the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum shooter, Timothy McVeigh, etc...

But wait, iwth every sham wow, you get more right wing nut job violent actions that have happened in the last decade.

yeeehaawww.

You're kidding right 1bad? Because I can' prattle off a few too if you would like. It really ain't helping your position to be making such easily met challenges.

Jim Adkisson walked into a Tennessee church and killed two churchgoers. Adkisson was motivated to attack what he called the "liberal movement." -2008

Authorities in Wichita and some other cities across the country are investigating vandalism against Democratic offices, apparently in response to health care reform.

And on Monday, a former Alabama militia leader took credit for instigating the actions.

Mike Vanderboegh of Pinson, Ala., former leader of the Alabama Constitutional Militia, put out a call on Friday for modern “Sons of Liberty” to break the windows of Democratic Party offices nationwide in opposition to health care reform. Since then, vandals have struck several offices, including the Sedgwick County Democratic Party headquarters in Wichita.

...

Vanderboegh posted the call for action Friday on his blog, “Sipsey Street Irregulars.” Referring to the health care reform bill as “Nancy Pelosi’s Intolerable Act,” he told followers to send a message to Democrats.

“We can break their windows,” he said. “Break them NOW. And if we do a proper job, if we break the windows of hundreds, thousands, of Democrat party headquarters across this country, we might just wake up enough of them to make defending ourselves at the muzzle of a rifle unnecessary.”
Just a couple of weeks ago-2010

TUCSON, AZ - Three people have been arrested in connection with last months deadly double homicide in Arivaca that left a nine-year-old and her father dead. One of the people arrested for the homicide is the National Executive Director of the Minuteman American Defense group (M.A.D.), a group known for patrolling the border, and is dedicated to "Defending America's Borders" according to their website -http://minutemenamericandefense.org/

Jason Eugene Bush, 38, Shawna Forde, 42 and Albert Robert Gaxiola, 43, were all taken into custody and charged in connection with the murders of 29-year-old Raul Flores and 8-year-old Brisenia Flores. Both were killed during an alleged home invasion. June of 2009

If I keep Googling, i can keep posting these til I puke.

In essence, your question has been answered, in spades when you count the Oklahoma city bombing, the holocaust museum shooting and the murder of this guy:
Brandon McClelland, 24, was dragged to death beneath a truck driven by two white men in Paris, Texas last month. McClelland was black. The site of his death is about 200 miles from the location where James Byrd was murdered in a similar manner ten years ago.

McClelland's murder took place on September 16, 2008. Parts of his mangled body were found strewn along the highway at great distance.

First responders treated the case as a hit and run. The county district attorney's office denied the possibility of racist motivations, and said comparisons to the Byrd lynching were "preposterous."

mawali

04-05-2010, 05:45 PM

Oh God, give us a break. :rolleyes:

I see you still blame Bush for Hurricane Katrina. It's a waste of time to try and speak rationally to someone like that.

Come on, dude! If you claim I blame Bush for Hurrican Katrina, show me where I stated as such. I never did! But if you say so and link where I stated as such, you are a far superior man than I!
Hurrican Katrine was weather related i.e. Bush did not cause it (as far as I know) but his inaction was slow enough for some people to wonder why?

I extrapolate from the party of Bush (i.e. actions and response time) that they (Katrina victims) as an extension of policy, should not be granted health care as is espoused by the present rhetoric!

Drake

04-05-2010, 05:55 PM

I think the corect statement should be : I blame Fmr Pres Bush for the lack of action and support in response to Hurricane Katrina.

It was embarassing how he commended the losers running FEMA even as things spiraled out of control down there. Had we not had GEN Honore down there, who actually gave a crap, it would have been much worse.

Did you see some of the e-mails sent between FEMA leadership? I would have swept that place clean if I were in charge.

David Jamieson

04-06-2010, 05:03 AM

1bad65

04-06-2010, 07:17 AM

1bad65

04-06-2010, 07:20 AM

Brandon McClelland, 24, was dragged to death beneath a truck driven by two white men in Paris, Texas last month. McClelland was black. The site of his death is about 200 miles from the location where James Byrd was murdered in a similar manner ten years ago.

McClelland's murder took place on September 16, 2008. Parts of his mangled body were found strewn along the highway at great distance.

First responders treated the case as a hit and run. The county district attorney's office denied the possibility of racist motivations, and said comparisons to the Byrd lynching were "preposterous."

Where is there a word about the suspect's political leanings or beliefs?

I'm telling you right now, automatically lumping racists and Nazis in with Republicans needs to stop right now. I'm all for rational debate, but you're being ridiculous.

1bad65

04-06-2010, 07:23 AM

I think he's been shamed into silence now, or he is furiously reading through things looking for stuff he can answer easy because he will never ever speak to the difficult points raised here.

It's not 1bad's MO.

If he can't tag a neo - con ditto head line onto something and then go into pea**** mode, he won't play. He needs to feel like he's done something. :p

even though this is a time waster while a dbase backs up and compiles for me. lol

Get off it. I have over 6,000 posts. And I reply too much, if anything. ;)

Actually my computer at home is acting up. So as of late I mostly post at work, when I have a few minutes to spare. If you don't believe me, look at my post times the last month or so. I'll bet money that a good 95% or more of them are between 9am and 5:30pm, my time.

Pork Chop

04-06-2010, 07:39 AM

I'm telling you right now, automatically lumping racists and Nazis in with Republicans needs to stop right now. I'm all for rational debate, but you're being ridiculous.

but it's fair for every other tea party poster to equate Obama with Stalin?
relabeling our country the USSA?

ps - it was neo-Nazis, as in: the guys that have the militant compounds in the woods - not too dissimilar from all of these militias; he's not referring to the German variety.

SanHeChuan

04-06-2010, 07:47 AM

First off, do not lump in Nazi's with our side. We despise that garbage.

The pilot here in Austin specifically named GW Bush in his suicide letter/manifesto, so calling him a right-winger is ridiculous. He seemed mad at everyone, certainly not just the left.

If you can site black power groups as marks against the left, then we can use white power groups against you. I think that's fair. We hardly sport the black panthers any more than you support neo-Nazi's.

As for the Tea party, they mainly tout themselves anti-tax and don't necessarily support republicans, putting their own candidates to run against them. And just because you’re on the right doesn't mean you have to support Bush. The Austin guy was anti-tax that is the parallel I draw with the Tea party. But I concede that he might not be right-wing, or sympathetic to the tea party. Probably was though :p

What about Timothy McVeigh surely he meets the requirements of ONE right-winger on par with the violence you cited.

The point is we are talking about current events, the Tea Party, the Militias, the hate groups that are all right leaning are growing and acting badly NOW.

David Jamieson

04-06-2010, 07:48 AM

Where is there a word about the suspect's political leanings or beliefs?

I'm telling you right now, automatically lumping racists and Nazis in with Republicans needs to stop right now. I'm all for rational debate, but you're being ridiculous.

I don't think there is an automatic lumping in of anything.

I'm pretty certain those murderers weren't democrats though and it is YOU who plays the division game, so suck it up when it gets played back with you.

1bad65

04-06-2010, 08:55 AM

I don't think there is an automatic lumping in of anything.

I'm pretty certain those murderers weren't democrats though and it is YOU who plays the division game, so suck it up when it gets played back with you.

Again, where is there a word about the suspect's political beliefs or leanings? You're article didn't even give their names!

1bad65

04-06-2010, 08:56 AM

but it's fair for every other tea party poster to equate Obama with Stalin?
relabeling our country the USSA?

ps - it was neo-Nazis, as in: the guys that have the militant compounds in the woods - not too dissimilar from all of these militias; he's not referring to the German variety.

They make those camparison's based on his policies, not his skin color or political affiliation.

And fyi, the Tea Party groups do not welcome or condone Nazis or neo-Nazis.

1bad65

04-06-2010, 09:00 AM

If you can site black power groups as marks against the left, then we can use white power groups against you. I think that's fair. We hardly sport the black panthers any more than you support neo-Nazi's.

As for the Tea party, they mainly tout themselves anti-tax and don't necessarily support republicans, putting their own candidates to run against them. And just because you’re on the right doesn't mean you have to support Bush. The Austin guy was anti-tax that is the parallel I draw with the Tea party. But I concede that he might not be right-wing, or sympathetic to the tea party. Probably was though :p

What about Timothy McVeigh surely he meets the requirements of ONE right-winger on par with the violence you cited.

The point is we are talking about current events, the Tea Party, the Militias, the hate groups that are all right leaning are growing and acting badly NOW.

No way dude. I equated the Black Panthers as a left leaning group, yes. But you specifically mentioned the Tea Party people. So show where THAT GROUP welcomes or condones neo-Nazis or drop it.

The pilot was also anti-business as well. You can try to paint him as a right-wing zealot all you want, but any rational, objective look at the facts will show you are barking up the wrong tree.

Tim McVeigh was what the press deems a "right wing" guy. But again, you mentioned the Tea Party. So show how the Tea Party and McVeigh are connected, and how where the Tea Party folks condoned him and/or his actions please.

Pork Chop

04-06-2010, 09:11 AM

They make those camparison's based on his policies, not his skin color or political affiliation.

And fyi, the Tea Party groups do not welcome or condone Nazis or neo-Nazis.

policies...
"A policy is typically described as a deliberate plan of action to guide decisions and achieve rational outcome(s)."

and yet you discourage comparisons with groups of people who hang out in compounds with weapons & spew hate filled rhetoric when a lot of these militias do the SAME EXACT THING!

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2010-04-04/news/ct-met-tea-party-0405--20100404_1_tea-party-express-rally-health-care

And those NeoNazis at the Tea Party event were doing just fine until they unfurled their Hitler flag...
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dawn-teo/video-scuffle-ensues-when_b_358152.html

1bad65

04-06-2010, 09:13 AM

And those NeoNazis at the Tea Party event were doing just fine until they unfurled their Hitler flag...
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dawn-teo/video-scuffle-ensues-when_b_358152.html

So once they let it be known who they really were, things were not "just fine", right?

Pork Chop

04-06-2010, 09:34 AM

So once they let it be known who they really were, things were not "just fine", right?

not exactly
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alex-brantzawadzki/tea-party-militants-nazis_b_437605.html

On Jan. 22 the Council of Conservative Citizens attended a Florida Tea Party, where members distributed two boxes of their newsletter and 250 Council business cards. The CofCC is the political face of the white power movement. Their mission statement declares that they "oppose all efforts to mix the races of mankind, to promote non-white races over the European-American people."

by your logic, Tea Party people are anti-immigration as well:
"Ironically, New Times columnist Stephen Lemons, a stalwart activist for immigrants, was also asked to leave."
oh the ironing that a bunch of caucasians in america are against immigration...

SanHeChuan

04-06-2010, 09:36 AM

No way dude. I equated the Black Panthers as a left leaning group, yes. But you specifically mentioned the Tea Party people. So show where THAT GROUP welcomes or condones neo-Nazis or drop it.

Oh so you can bring up lefties from any time or place, but I'm am confined to the current tea party group? That's not fair. If I can only use the bad examples in the Tea party then you can only bring up lefties that are contemporary to the tea party. Where is that list of atrocities?

David Jamieson

04-06-2010, 09:46 AM

Again, where is there a word about the suspect's political beliefs or leanings? You're article didn't even give their names!

would you like me to look that up?
You asked for examples of right wing violence.
I gave you those examples.

If you can't accept that the wing you like to sit on does those things, then maybe you shouldn't enter into discussions like this?

If you want to blanket the left with your choices of who is what and where is where etc (the SLA example you gave for instance) then you need to understand that the same tools you chose to use will be used to retort as well.

I'm surprised that you would feign you need to be educated on that point. :)

so, let's talk about McVeigh then.
right winger? check.
clear political affiliation to the GOP? check
clear political views? check
remorse for his actions. none.

explain.

1bad65

04-06-2010, 10:48 AM

On Jan. 22 the Council of Conservative Citizens attended a Florida Tea Party, where members distributed two boxes of their newsletter and 250 Council business cards. The CofCC is the political face of the white power movement. Their mission statement declares that they "oppose all efforts to mix the races of mankind, to promote non-white races over the European-American people."

by your logic, Tea Party people are anti-immigration as well:
"Ironically, New Times columnist Stephen Lemons, a stalwart activist for immigrants, was also asked to leave."
oh the ironing that a bunch of caucasians in america are against immigration...

So if I attend a Democrat gathering and pass out Nazi literature, does that mean the Democrats support Nazi beliefs?

1bad65

04-06-2010, 10:49 AM

Oh so you can bring up lefties from any time or place, but I'm am confined to the current tea party group? That's not fair. If I can only use the bad examples in the Tea party then you can only bring up lefties that are contemporary to the tea party. Where is that list of atrocities?

You brought up the Tea Party. You set the goalposts, not me.

Pork Chop

04-06-2010, 10:50 AM

So if I attend a Democrat gathering and pass out Nazi literature, does that mean the Democrats support Nazi beliefs?

no, but it would mean that the democrats running the democrat gathering were condoning your membership drive.

1bad65

04-06-2010, 10:53 AM

would you like me to look that up?

Of course I would like that. If you call the suspects right wingers, I expect you to be able to prove it.

You asked for examples of right wing violence.
I gave you those examples.

You gave an example of violence, yes. But nowhere did it mention a word about their political leanings. Again, it didn't even mention the suspects' names!

If you can't accept that the wing you like to sit on does those things, then maybe you shouldn't enter into discussions like this?

Again, I obviously will not accept that certain people are "right wingers", when you can't even provide their names, much less their political leanings.

so, let's talk about McVeigh then.
right winger? check.
clear political affiliation to the GOP? check
clear political views? check
remorse for his actions. none.

explain.

You explain. Show the proof that McVeigh supported the GOP.

1bad65

04-06-2010, 10:56 AM

Heck, some idiot recently fired a gun near Republican Rep Eric Cantor's office, blowing out a window. You don't see me saying I know the guy is a left wing nut.

1bad65

04-06-2010, 10:57 AM

no, but it would mean that the democrats running the democrat gathering were condoning your membership drive.

Not at all. What if they were not notified and were completely unaware of my activities?

Pork Chop

04-06-2010, 11:40 AM

Not at all. What if they were not notified and were completely unaware of my activities?

but they were openly advertising and recruiting.
apparently a lot of people took the literature.
so if things were really "not okay" upon "finding out who they were", they would've been escorted away like the guys with the flag.

one of the drawbacks of not having any central leadership is that there's no one who can give a definitive statement of what you stand for.

now i understand that you'll take the same stance as all the other tea baggers and deny any relation with significant portions of the people who show up to support your cause.

i understand that tactic but i feel it's greatly flawed.

you (the demonstrators) just provided a platform for people to spew hate.
either you guys can take responsibility for it and run your demonstrations a little better, or you're going to be criticized for the actions of your constituency.

SanHeChuan

04-06-2010, 11:49 AM

You brought up the Tea Party. You set the goalposts, not me.

You challenged us, you set the goal posts, unfairly. If the Title of the thread was your goal post you shot way wide with your examples as none of those were tea partiers. :p

Pork Chop

04-06-2010, 11:57 AM

Heck, some idiot recently fired a gun near Republican Rep Eric Cantor's office, blowing out a window. You don't see me saying I know the guy is a left wing nut.

are we talking about the randomly fired bullet?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/26/eric-cantor-bullet-shot-a_n_514651.html

or are we talking about the nut with the youtube video?
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36084257/ns/politics-capitol_hill/

coz it might be a little hard to consider him a hard line lefty when he's doing this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdOfwx6I3kQ&feature=player_embedded

"Yes, President Obama, you and Vice President Biden and Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid and your security council say very bad things about me. Your punishment is coming, the swine, it will be severe and you will beg for mercy to your God. It will be severe."

1bad65

04-06-2010, 12:45 PM

but they were openly advertising and recruiting.
apparently a lot of people took the literature.
so if things were really "not okay" upon "finding out who they were", they would've been escorted away like the guys with the flag.

Come on Pork, you're above this. Notice they said they were the "Council of Conservative Citizens". They didn't come as the Aryan Nations, or the American Nazi Party, White Power, or anything similar to that.

one of the drawbacks of not having any central leadership is that there's no one who can give a definitive statement of what you stand for.

Agreed. But you can show just one speaker at a Tea Party event who spouts neo-Nazi garbage?

now i understand that you'll take the same stance as all the other tea baggers and deny any relation with significant portions of the people who show up to support your cause.

Now the neo-Nazis are "significant portions" of the Tea Party movement? :rolleyes: Let me guess, you have no statistics to back that ridiculous assertion up, right?

you (the demonstrators) just provided a platform for people to spew hate.
either you guys can take responsibility for it and run your demonstrations a little better, or you're going to be criticized for the actions of your constituency.

Again, show any speaker at these gatherings that openly preaches neo-Nazi beliefs.

1bad65

04-06-2010, 12:52 PM

are we talking about the randomly fired bullet?

Who knows. Who cares. My point was that I didn't immediately get on here and say a left-wing nut tried to shoot Rep Cantor. While you guys are saying right-wingers are doing certain acts and you guys don't even have the suspects names. :rolleyes:

"Yes, President Obama, you and Vice President Biden and Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid and your security council say very bad things about me. Your punishment is coming, the swine, it will be severe and you will beg for mercy to your God. It will be severe."

While I don't call people "swine", the guy has some of it right. They will have to face God, and be judged by Him. And they have openly called for legalizing the killing unborn children, so I bet He may be pretty severe on them.

How they (Biden and Pelosi) can still take Communion is beyond me, but then again that 'church' is headed by a former Hitler Youth, so I don't put much stock in that 'religion'.

Pork Chop

04-06-2010, 10:20 PM

Now the neo-Nazis are "significant portions" of the Tea Party movement? :rolleyes: Let me guess, you have no statistics to back that ridiculous assertion up, right?

I'll freely admit I have some biases here;
particularly after discussing the comments hurled at those congressmen (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/03/20/AR2010032002556.html) with a local friend/coworker.

again, he took what appears to be the standard, two-part, tea party debate stance:
1. they're not associated with us, they don't represent us
2. vids or it didn't happen

i mean if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, walks like a duck....

1st - you've got a history of racial epithets hurled by demonstrators at tea party functions (whether you want to take responsibility for it or not)

2nd - you've got videos out there of official rallies with very little minority representation. including a documentary about a rally that tried to focus on its diversity by highlighting the lone speaker and lone audience member as the only 2 people of color in the whole crowd.

3rd - you've got a platform that is very anti-illegal-immigration and it's pretty common knowledge that many anti-illegal-immigration rants are thinly-veiled racism.

4th - you've got neo nazis themselves going on record that tea party events are prime recruiting ground & exactly what they need to further their cause; including a report of open, active recruiting.

the accusations that there is a connection between conservatives (http://www.snopes.com/politics/quotes/limbaugh.asp) and racism (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tiLVTzljOjA&feature=player_embedded) are nothing new. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgbg604XqPY)

The idea being that we're talking the kinda racists that whisper "black people" if they think there might be any around, not the ones that burn a cross on your front lawn. You know the ones that deny being racist for 40 minutes straight, right before telling you how such & such race is inferior, maybe even tossing around the n word (but only about the "stupid" ones). so the very overt, smoking-gun type situations are going to be a lot more subtle and not going so far as having a neo nazi give a hate speech at a rally.

to be honest, i really respected the tea party folks at the beginning for getting involved and putting themselves out there.
over time that sentiment changed though:
strike 1 was hooking up with palin, who scares the crud out of me and i believe has absolutely no business being in politics, but will probably be able to scare enough easily swayed folks to get her in there.
strike 2 was the bad behavior at rallies. I don't think this is the day and age for tossing racial epithets, gay bashing, spitting on folks, or yelling "baby killer" while someone else was addressing the house floor (regardless of your abortion stance, it was in poor taste).
strike 3 is the vandalism

at this point, i don't even care if they have any valid points to their rants and protests. i'm done with people that can't act like grown ups.

1bad65

04-07-2010, 07:06 AM

I'll freely admit I have some biases here;
particularly after discussing the comments hurled at those congressmen (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/03/20/AR2010032002556.html) with a local friend/coworker.

again, he took what appears to be the standard, two-part, tea party debate stance:
1. they're not associated with us, they don't represent us
2. vids or it didn't happen

i mean if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, walks like a duck....

What's wrong with that? :confused: There has been some video/audio of those alleged incidents, and so far not one racial slur has been caught on tape.

1st - you've got a history of racial epithets hurled by demonstrators at tea party functions (whether you want to take responsibility for it or not)

2nd - you've got videos out there of official rallies with very little minority representation. including a documentary about a rally that tried to focus on its diversity by highlighting the lone speaker and lone audience member as the only 2 people of color in the whole crowd.

History of racial ephitets? This is news to me. Please back this assertion up.

So what if there are few minorities? FYI, Obama got 95% of the black vote. Face it, blacks overwhelmingly vote Democrat. What is the Tea Party supposed to do? Kidnap some blacks and put them in the crowd? Offer money for blacks to show up?

3rd - you've got a platform that is very anti-illegal-immigration and it's pretty common knowledge that many anti-illegal-immigration rants are thinly-veiled racism.

So because we want laws on the books enforced, we are racists? Get out of here with that garbage.

4th - you've got neo nazis themselves going on record that tea party events are prime recruiting ground & exactly what they need to further their cause; including a report of open, active recruiting.

First off, back that assertion up. Second, do you believe everything a neo-Nazi tells you?

1bad65

04-07-2010, 07:09 AM

"ALBANY, N.Y. – They've been called Oreos, traitors and Uncle Toms, and are used to having to defend their values. Now black conservatives are really taking heat for their involvement in the mostly white tea party movement — and for having the audacity to oppose the policies of the nation's first black president.

"I've been told I hate myself. I've been called an Uncle Tom. I've been told I'm a spook at the door," said Timothy F. Johnson, chairman of the Frederick Douglass Foundation, a group of black conservatives who support free market principles and limited government.

"Black Republicans find themselves always having to prove who they are. Because the assumption is the Republican Party is for whites and the Democratic Party is for blacks," he said.

Opponents have branded the tea party as a group of racists hiding behind economic concerns — and reports that some tea partyers were lobbing racist slurs at black congressmen during last month's heated health care vote give them ammunition.

But these black conservatives don't consider racism representative of the movement as a whole — or race a reason to support it

Angela McGlowan, a black congressional candidate from Mississippi, said her tea party involvement is "not about a black or white issue."

"It's not even about Republican or Democrat, from my standpoint," she told The Associated Press. "All of us are taxed too much."

Black voters have overwhelmingly backed Democratic candidates, support that has only grown in recent years. In 2004, presidential candidate Sen. John Kerry won 88 percent of the black vote; four years later, 95 percent of black voters cast ballots for Obama.

Black conservatives don't want to have to apologize for their divergent views.

"I've gotten the statement, 'How can you not support the brother?'" said David Webb, an organizer of New York City's Tea Party 365, Inc. movement and a conservative radio personality.

Among the 37 black Republicans running for U.S. House and Senate seats in November is Charles Lollar of Maryland's 5th District.

McGlowan believes the tea party movement has been unfairly portrayed as monolithically white, male and middle-aged, though she acknowledged blacks and Hispanics are a minority at most events.

Racist protest signs at some tea party rallies and recent reports by U.S. Reps. John Lewis, D-Ga., and Barney Frank, D-Mass., that tea partyers shouted racial and anti-gay slurs at them have raised allegations of racism in the tea party movement.

Black members of the movement say it is not inherently racist, and some question the reported slurs. "You would think — something that offensive — you would think someone got video of it," Bazar, the conservative blogger, said.

"Just because you have one nut case, it doesn't automatically equate that you've got an organization that espouses (racism) as a sane belief," Johnson said."

Source:
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/04/06/black-tea-party-activists-called-traitors/

Pork Chop

04-07-2010, 07:23 AM

What's wrong with that? :confused: There has been some video/audio of those alleged incidents, and so far not one racial slur has been caught on tape.

History of racial ephitets? This is news to me. Please back this assertion up.

i already did (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/03/20/AR2010032002556.html)
and i guess you're going to your go-to strategy:
when someone calls the tea-party on slinging racist insults at congressmen, unless it's on video it "didn't happen", regardless of the number of witnesses and comments from both the GOP & other Tea Party members chastising them for doing it (http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/88081-gop-leaders-disavow-tea-party-activists-epithets-toward-lawmakers).
of course all those people that were doing the name calling and spitting were just democrat plants right? :rolleyes:

and as far as that last assertion... (http://gawker.com/5211747/neo+nazis-tea-parties-are-the-white-revolution-weve-been-waiting-for)

seeing as how the head of the GOP is an african american, you'd think that the tea party wouldn't have so much trouble getting significant numbers of african americans, let alone other minorities.

i just can't believe you guys are so adamant about refusing to admit any wrongdoing in these circumstances. instead of saying "hey, yeah, things got out of hand and people were saying some stuff they didn't mean in the heat of the moment"; it's: deny, deny, deny, and when in doubt, deny some more. but I guess Reagan taught you guys that one. (http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1P2-1333936.html)

Pork Chop

04-07-2010, 07:26 AM

Source:
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/04/06/black-tea-party-activists-called-traitors/

now is this from the 23 hours of the day that Fox news is considered "entertainment" and is allowed to make up their facts? or is this from the one hour where they actually do some research?

1bad65

04-07-2010, 10:19 AM

now is this from the 23 hours of the day that Fox news is considered "entertainment" and is allowed to make up their facts? or is this from the one hour where they actually do some research?

Actually FoxNews got it here:
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D9ETR1380&show_article=1

So now it counts.

And you do realize that FoxNews has much higher ratings than CNN or MSNBC, right? Actually the Cartoon Network has higher ratings than CNN and MSNBC. :D

1bad65

04-07-2010, 10:20 AM

Pork,

Speaking of spewing racism, what's your take on Obama's pastor Wright?

Pork Chop

04-07-2010, 10:22 AM

Actually FoxNews got it here:
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D9ETR1380&show_article=1

So now it counts.

interesting article

And you do realize that FoxNews has much higher ratings than CNN or MSNBC, right? Actually the Cartoon Network has higher ratings than CNN and MSNBC. :D

cartoon network has some solid programming. :p
i can't decide whether that many people buying into glenn beck is scary or sad.

1bad65

04-07-2010, 10:45 AM

cartoon network has some solid programming. :p
i can't decide whether that many people buying into glenn beck is scary or sad.

I have no idea how it breaks down by show. I do know I do not watch Glenn Beck at all myself. Sean Hannity is good though.

solo1

04-07-2010, 10:52 AM

Blacks have some nerve being FOR keeping the money they earn, wanting government smaller and less intrusive and God Forbid they think a socialist in the white house is a bad thing no matter what his color is. What would the good reverand wright have to say about this?

Pork Chop

04-07-2010, 10:53 AM

Pork,

Speaking of spewing racism, what's your take on Obama's pastor Wright?

you mean ex-pastor as of may of last year?
racist old black man
then again anti-semitism from christian ministers is nothing new.
i've also got at least one 5%er friend and my last name derives directly from Yakub. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yakub_(Nation_of_Islam))
i definitely don't agree with those kind of view points.
racism is a very negative thing & inexcusable, but it does exist.
affirmative action may be a racist policy, but it's nothing compared to the institutional racism that's existed in this country since the beginning, or having to deal with double standards like DWB.
he's also not arming himself & select followers in some remote militia compound.
so it's a bit of a stretch to lump him in with neo nazis.

YouKnowWho

04-07-2010, 11:04 AM

What will happen when a black tea party member (who is also a member of the Black Panther Party) sits next to a white tea party member (who is also a KKK member)?

I believe the chance that this could happen in the democrate party is very low.

MasterKiller

04-07-2010, 11:09 AM

What will happen when a black tea party member (who is also a member of the Black Panther Party) sits next to a white tea party member (who is also a KKK member)?

Jungle fever?

MasterKiller

04-07-2010, 11:37 AM

FOR keeping the money they earn,

http://www.cbpp.org/archiveSite/4-12-04tax-f1.jpg

Personal taxes for the middle class aren't exactly at a historical high, now are they?

MasterKiller

04-07-2010, 11:51 AM

WASHINGTON – Tax Day is a dreaded deadline for millions, but for nearly half of U.S. households it's simply somebody else's problem.

About 47 percent will pay no federal income taxes at all for 2009. Either their incomes were too low, or they qualified for enough credits, deductions and exemptions to eliminate their liability. That's according to projections by the Tax Policy Center, a Washington research organization.

Most people still are required to file returns by the April 15 deadline. The penalty for skipping it is limited to the amount of taxes owed, but it's still almost always better to file: That's the only way to get a refund of all the income taxes withheld by employers.

In recent years, credits for low- and middle-income families have grown so much that a family of four making as much as $50,000 will owe no federal income tax for 2009, as long as there are two children younger than 17, according to a separate analysis by the consulting firm Deloitte Tax.

1bad65

04-07-2010, 11:53 AM

I believe the chance that this could happen in the democrate party is very low.

You must have never heard of the Exalted Cyclops Robert Byrd (D-WV).

1bad65

04-07-2010, 11:54 AM

Personal taxes for the middle class aren't exactly at a historical high, now are they?

That only covers the income tax. It leaves out sales taxes, for example.

Count total taxes, and it's around 40%.

1bad65

04-07-2010, 11:56 AM

MasterKiller

04-07-2010, 12:22 PM

That only covers the income tax. It leaves out sales taxes, for example.

Count total taxes, and it's around 40%.

I agree. But the Federal government has no control over State and Local taxes.

MasterKiller

04-07-2010, 12:24 PM

This is absolutely terrifying.

How can anyone read this and say "the rich" don't pay taxes? :rolleyes:

The combination of the tax cuts enacted in 2001 and the tax cut enacted in 2003 is giving households that make more than $1 million a year an average tax cut of more than $120,000 in 2004, according to new analysis by the Urban Institute-Brookings Institution Tax Policy Center. This is nearly 200 times the size of the average tax cut that families in the middle of the income scale are receiving. http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=1804

They don't have it that bad, either. And you don't exactly see a lot of Bentley's rolling up at Tea Party events.

The whole idea of a "Tea Party" was concocted so people could demonstrate against Obama without drawing ire for "not supporting the troops." When Bush was in office, these same people routinely said it was tantamount to aiding and abetting terrorists to protest a wartime president.

YouKnowWho

04-07-2010, 12:55 PM

About 47 percent will pay no federal income taxes at all for 2009. Either their incomes were too low, or they qualified for enough credits, deductions and exemptions to eliminate their liability.

I know some one who did not pay any income tax last year but he had to pay over $30,000 property tax. I'll not call that person's "liability had been eliminated". The federal government will get you one way or another.

MasterKiller

04-07-2010, 01:05 PM

I know some one who did not pay any income tax last year but he had to pay over $30,000 property tax. I'll not call that person's "liability had been eliminated". The federal government will get you one way or another.

Property taxes are State and Local mandates, NOT Federal.

David Jamieson

04-07-2010, 01:31 PM

If you really want to end the tea bagger violence, then you need to hunt them down and kill them.

Then immediately hold hands, form a circle and sing kumbaya! :D

It's not like you'd make any sort of intellectual dent in the nation by discarding these un-american bums anyway. lol

1bad65

04-07-2010, 01:37 PM

I agree. But the Federal government has no control over State and Local taxes.

But the point is how taxed the middle class is. It's not over who is levying the taxes, but the total amount of the taxes.

1bad65

04-07-2010, 01:39 PM

The whole idea of a "Tea Party" was concocted so people could demonstrate against Obama without drawing ire for "not supporting the troops." When Bush was in office, these same people routinely said it was tantamount to aiding and abetting terrorists to protest a wartime president.

You're dead wrong. It's full of folks who feel overtaxed, quite worried about the size of the Federal government, and want the rampant spending to stop. Even the article said that.

Just go to YouTube and watch the Tea Party speakers. See how many times you hear the words "taxes" vs how many times you hear the word "troops" if you don't believe me.

MasterKiller

04-07-2010, 01:40 PM

But the point is how taxed the middle class is. It's not over who is levying the taxes, but the total amount of the taxes.

With Federal Taxes at record LOWS for the middle class, the obvious targets for Tea Party activities would be State and City taxes. It doesn't do any good to petition Congress, or even elect a Republican majority to the House and Senate, to get changes to State and Local tax codes.

That's why the Tea Party is a sham.

1bad65

04-07-2010, 01:48 PM

Property taxes are State and Local mandates, NOT Federal.

And read today's news too. The Obama regime is considering a national sales tax.

Now he can break two campaign promises in one shot! He not only promised not to raise taxes on the middle class, he said you don't raise taxes during a recession because that causes a depression.

1bad65

04-07-2010, 01:50 PM

With Federal Taxes at record LOWS for the middle class, the obvious targets for Tea Party activities would be State and City taxes. It doesn't do any good to petition Congress, or even elect a Republican majority to the House and Senate, to get changes to State and Local tax codes.

That's why the Tea Party is a sham.

Record lows? What planet are you living on?

How is it a sham? They aren't just running/supporting candidates on the Federal level, they are doing so on local and State levels as well. Maybe you should research them a little more before you bash them.

MasterKiller

04-07-2010, 01:53 PM

Record lows? What planet are you living on?

http://www.cbpp.org/archiveSite/4-12-04tax-f1.jpg

1bad65

04-07-2010, 02:47 PM

YouKnowWho

04-07-2010, 06:41 PM

Property taxes are State and Local mandates, NOT Federal.

Believe it or not, I didn't realize that until today.

Blacks have some nerve being FOR keeping the money they earn, wanting government smaller and less intrusive and God Forbid they think a socialist in the white house is a bad thing no matter what his color is. What would the good reverand wright have to say about this?
This is quite sad indeed.

A friend of mine is a Chinaman. His father in law is a white conservative Freemason and KKK member. One day my friend told his father in law that he was interesting in join in those secrety society if possible. His father in law said, "Since you are Chinese and non-christian, it may be difficult for you to join in the Freemason. It will be almost impossible for you to joint in the KKK (my friend was interesting in Freemason only but his father in law though he was interesting in both)."

The day that my friend realizes that he has tried to use his hot face to touch somoen's cold ass, he may realize that he is more than just "stupid".

MSNBC just reports today, "There are only 5 black tea party members".

MasterKiller

04-08-2010, 06:12 AM

Keep in mind also MK that your graph shows the burden, not the rate. The rate right now is very high (possibly at record highs, I've not had time to check). The reason the burden is low is that "the rich" are having a higher burden placed on them, thus lowering the middle class's burden. The poor do not pay income taxes, so they have no rate or burden.

Record highs, hardly. The current rate through 2009 is between 10 and 35%, depending on the bracket. Between 1982 and 1986, it was 12 to 50%, and during WWII, it was anywhere between 19 and 94%.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e5/MarginalIncomeTax.svg/585px-MarginalIncomeTax.svg.png

MasterKiller

04-08-2010, 06:25 AM

Believe it or not, I didn't realize that until today.
Remember, you live in Texas, where there is no State income tax, and to make up for it, they charge outrageous property taxes.

1bad65

04-08-2010, 06:59 AM

Remember, you live in Texas, where there is no State income tax, and to make up for it, they charge outrageous property taxes.

Incorrect.

Any State income tax would go to the State. Property taxes are local taxes, the money does not go to the State.

1bad65

04-08-2010, 06:59 AM

Record highs, hardly. The current rate through 2009 is between 10 and 35%, depending on the bracket. Between 1982 and 1986, it was 12 to 50%, and during WWII, it was anywhere between 19 and 94%.

What is that a graph of? It is not labelled in any way.

MasterKiller

04-08-2010, 07:04 AM

What is that a graph of? It is not labelled in any way.

"Partial history of changes in the U.S. federal income tax rates for individuals (and the income brackets) since 1913."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_tax_in_the_United_States

SanHeChuan

04-08-2010, 07:22 AM

You're dead wrong. It's full of folks who feel overtaxed, quite worried about the size of the Federal government, and want the rampant spending to stop. Even the article said that.

Mandate to Save America (http://mandatetosaveamerica.com/)

1. Acknowledge The Centrality Of Faith - We call for the right to publicly acknowledge God;

2. Protect human life - We call for the protection of human life from conception to natural death;

3. Save Traditional Marriage - We call for marriage to remain the union of a man and a woman and we further call for families and parental rights to be strengthened;

4. Stop Judicial Tyranny - We call for judges to be constrained by the Constitution and laws of the land;

5. Protect The Rights Of Parents to control the education of their children - We call for educational expenditures to follow parental choice;

6. Limit the size of government - We call for honesty in our government, limited to constitutional functions;

7. Protect our economic freedom - We call for a free-market economy, because it rewards hard work, creates jobs and maximizes human potential;

8. Practice fiscal responsibility, lower taxes and reduce spending - We call for lower taxes, less spending, an affordable government and the end of runaway deficits;

9. Focus on national security - We call for a foreign and military policy that protects Americans, maintains our national sovereignty and secures our borders;

10. Secure energy independence - We call for more exploration, development, production and use of all energy resources.

tea party problems revealed (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mike-green/tea-party-problems-reveal_b_524412.html)
When a sweet little old lady from Idaho boils down the economic crisis in America to the notion that the election of a Black president with a presumed socialist agenda has brought the nation to its knees and threatens the future of America, it reveals the depth and width of the chasm between the Tea Party movement and reality.

Ignorance Is Bliss for the Tea Party Crowd (http://wallstreetpit.com/20793-ignorance-is-bliss-for-the-tea-party-crowd)
Tuesday’s tea party crowd, however, thought that federal taxes were almost three times higher than they actually are. The average response was 42% of GDP and the median was 40%. The highest figure recorded in all of American history was half those figures: 20.9% at the peak of World War II in 1944.

....

Tea party goers also seem to have a very distorted view of the direction of federal taxes. They were asked whether they are higher, lower or the same as when Barack Obama was inaugurated last year. More than two-thirds thought that taxes are higher today and only 4% thought they were lower; the rest said they are the same.

As noted earlier, federal taxes are very considerably lower by every measure since Obama became president. And given the economic circumstances, it’s hard to imagine that a tax increase would have been enacted last year. In fact, 40% of Obama’s stimulus package involved tax cuts.

Tea Party: Everything You Know Is Wrong (http://www.ourfuture.org/blog-entry/2010020822/tea-party-everything-you-know-wrong)

The Tea Party's fallacy is that they assume that the national budget is just like their own household budgets. According to a recent poll, paying down debt is the number one concern of American families right now; and since most of us see the nation as simply an extension of the family, it's natural to think that if we have to tighten our belts, Uncle Sam should have to do it, too.

...

We've had 80 years of experience using the Keynesian cure in countries all over the globe, and we know it works. Given that long certainty, reducing the debt right now would be the most irresponsible thing we could possibly do. And there's no serious economist in the world who will tell you otherwise.

...

If you pin them down on where they think the waste is, it becomes obvious they're still operating under the delusion that most of their tax money is going to entitlements to undeserving slackers who didn't follow the rules (starting with Rule One, which is: Be Born White). You cannot get them to believe that these programs are actually a very small part of the federal budget -- less than 15%, and shrinking.

.................................................. .....

1bad65

04-08-2010, 09:37 AM

"Partial history of changes in the U.S. federal income tax rates for individuals (and the income brackets) since 1913."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_tax_in_the_United_States

So it is not a graph representing total taxes.

What's your opinion on the national sales tax the Obama regime is considering?

1bad65

04-08-2010, 09:40 AM

Tea party goers also seem to have a very distorted view of the direction of federal taxes. They were asked whether they are higher, lower or the same as when Barack Obama was inaugurated last year. More than two-thirds thought that taxes are higher today and only 4% thought they were lower; the rest said they are the same.

If you don't think taxes are going up to pay for all this "free" healthcare, you're insane. And FYI, the regime just yesterday said a Federal sales tax may be coming soon...

1bad65

04-08-2010, 09:42 AM

We've had 80 years of experience using the Keynesian cure in countries all over the globe, and we know it works. Given that long certainty, reducing the debt right now would be the most irresponsible thing we could possibly do. And there's no serious economist in the world who will tell you otherwise.

This has to be one of the most dishonest/ridiculous things I've ever read. The liar/fool wrote this has zero credability.

And his idiocy continues:

If you pin them down on where they think the waste is, it becomes obvious they're still operating under the delusion that most of their tax money is going to entitlements to undeserving slackers who didn't follow the rules (starting with Rule One, which is: Be Born White). You cannot get them to believe that these programs are actually a very small part of the federal budget -- less than 15%, and shrinking.

Shrinking??? LMAO at that. It's gonna skyrocket in about 4 years when all that "free" healthcare becomes available.

And IMO, it should be 0%.

MasterKiller

04-08-2010, 09:58 AM

What's your opinion on the national sales tax the Obama regime is considering? I haven't heard anything about it. If anything, I'd rather we had a national lottery, which would raise funds but wouldn't be mandatory.

David Jamieson

04-08-2010, 10:30 AM

I haven't heard anything about it. If anything, I'd rather we had a national lottery, which would raise funds but wouldn't be mandatory.

we do a couple fo national lotteries up here. funds are used for initiatives across the country like sports arenas for smaller towns that could never afford one, healthcare centers, you name it and lottery commissions are putting money into it.

Still, we get taxed up the yinyang anyway. Such is the lot of a Canuck.:p

1bad65

04-08-2010, 11:17 AM

I haven't heard anything about it. If anything, I'd rather we had a national lottery, which would raise funds but wouldn't be mandatory.

But yet you supported Obamacare, with it's mandatory participation.

Pork Chop

04-08-2010, 11:20 AM

This has to be one of the most dishonest/ridiculous things I've ever read. The liar/fool wrote this has zero credability.

this debate caused me to do some research.
since i haven't taken any economics classes as part of my mba yet, i needed a quick definition and this seemed pretty good:
http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-keynesian-economics.htm

i really learned a lot from this link:
http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/KeynesianEconomics.html

The massive U.S. tax cuts between 1981 and 1984 provided something approximating a laboratory test of these alternative views [Keynesian and Classical economic theories]. What happened? The private saving rate did not rise. Real interest rates soared. With fiscal stimulus offset by monetary contraction, real GNP growth was approximately unaffected; it grew at about the same rate as it had in the recent past. Again, this all seems more consistent with Keynesian than with new classical theory.

Finally, there was the European depression of the 1980s, the worst since the depression of the 1930s. The Keynesian explanation is straightforward. Governments, led by the British and German central banks, decided to fight inflation with highly restrictive monetary and fiscal policies. The anti-inflation crusade was strengthened by the European monetary system, which, in effect, spread the stern German monetary policy all over Europe. The new classical school has no comparable explanation. New classicals, and conservative economists in general, argue that European governments interfere more heavily in labor markets (with high unemployment benefits, for example, and restrictions on firing workers). But most of these interferences were in place in the early 1970s, when unemployment was extremely low.

granted, i'm still a noob at this stuff and 2 links is an over simplification of a science that has been going on for centuries.

but I've been laid off before.
I know soldiers who've had to rely on food stamps.
We're coming off 2 of the worst years on record for job layoffs (figures that I'm surprised don't get brought up more when talking about the housing collapse).

It's pretty common knowledge that lower income people spend a higher percentage of their money on things like food, that kick money back into the economy.
On the other hand people in the higher brackets of income are more likely to save their money, effectively taking it out of the economy, especially in the climate of an unsure market.

So i'm not really against a redistribution of wealth.
Even if that money is given to those that are "undeserving".
I'm sorry people can't keep their (our) stuff.
Sorry people gotta be inconvenienced and "forced" to pay for stuff they didn't sign up for.
Sometimes helping people is the right thing to do.
And any economist will tell you that sometimes you gotta spend money to make money.

1bad65

04-08-2010, 11:21 AM

I haven't heard anything about it.

Here is a story about it:
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/bam_man_pitching_national_sales_TyKWnlkz2W09rQuHKP Jx4J

1bad65

04-08-2010, 11:23 AM

The massive U.S. tax cuts between 1981 and 1984 provided something approximating a laboratory test of these alternative views [Keynesian and Classical economic theories]. What happened? The private saving rate did not rise. Real interest rates soared. With fiscal stimulus offset by monetary contraction, real GNP growth was approximately unaffected; it grew at about the same rate as it had in the recent past. Again, this all seems more consistent with Keynesian than with new classical theory.

He lost all credability there.

1bad65

04-08-2010, 11:24 AM

Still, we get taxed up the yinyang anyway. Such is the lot of a Canuck.:p

We're not far behind you. And we are catching up fast....

Pork Chop

04-08-2010, 11:26 AM

If you don't think taxes are going up to pay for all this "free" healthcare, you're insane. And FYI, the regime just yesterday said a Federal sales tax may be coming soon...

wow there's a big difference between "may be coming soon" and "something we should maybe consider".

Pork Chop

04-08-2010, 11:29 AM

He lost all credability there.

Alan S. Blinder has been on the Princeton faculty since 1971, taking time off from January 1993 through January 1996 for service in the U.S. government—first as a member of President Clinton’s original Council of Economic Advisers, and then as Vice Chairman of the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System. In addition to his academic writings [books, academic articles] and his best-selling introductory textbook, he has written many newspaper and magazine columns and op-eds and, in recent years, has been a regular columnist for The New York Times Sunday Business section. He also appears frequently on television on PBS, CNBC, Bloomberg, and others. Dr. Blinder is a past president of the Eastern Economic Association, past vice president of the American Economic Association, and a member of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences, the American Philosophical Society, and the American Academy of Political and Social Science.

and who are you again?

MasterKiller

04-08-2010, 11:43 AM

We're not far behind you. And we are catching up fast....

LOL...who is we? You live in Texas, which has one of the lowest Tax burdens in the country.

http://www.taxfoundation.org/files/sl_burden_texas-20080807.swf

David Jamieson

04-08-2010, 11:48 AM

I am usually one to apply Occam's Razor to pretty much anything.

Tea party people by that measure are basically this:

a) predominantly white folks

b) predominantly right wing (far)

c) carefully racist

d) poorly educated about their government

e) poorly educated about their constitution and bill of rights

f) mostly educated by Glen Beck, Bill O'Reilly and Rush Limbaugh

g) are fixated on Ronald Reagan for some weird reason ( Hey, he's dead! H'es not coming back and he was long ago and far away...like starwars. lol )

mawali

04-08-2010, 01:05 PM

I don't trust either party but Rush (and those of his ilk) has stated repeatedly, and ad nauseum, that Obama plans to raise taxes but now a report comes out saying that only 47% will do so, which I thought is a good thing that they don't based on exemptions, credits, etc.

Now Rush is mad that these same people have followed the law and through leagl means, they do not have to pay or are owed money! It seems to depend on which strategy will aggravate the Taa Party with their smoke and mirrors, policies.

1bad65

04-08-2010, 01:27 PM

and who are you again?

I'm the guy who says interest rates did not soar during Reagan's terms. And I'm the guy thats right about that. It is what it is.

1bad65

04-08-2010, 01:28 PM

LOL...who is we? You live in Texas, which has one of the lowest Tax burdens in the country.

http://www.taxfoundation.org/files/sl_burden_texas-20080807.swf

By 'we', I meant Americans. Not Texans.

1bad65

04-08-2010, 01:33 PM

I am usually one to apply Occam's Razor to pretty much anything.

Tea party people by that measure are basically this:

c) carefully racist

d) poorly educated about their government

e) poorly educated about their constitution and bill of rights

STFU with that racist crap. The Democrats are the Party with the KKK Exalted Cyclops sitting in the Senate. Not the Tea Party. Not the Republicans.

And let's see what the Exalted Cyclops says on race:
"I shall never fight in the armed forces with a Negro by my side... Rather I should die a thousand times, and see Old Glory trampled in the dirt never to rise again, than to see this beloved land of ours become degraded by race mongrels, a throwback to the blackest specimen from the wilds." -Robert Byrd (D-WV)

You show me anything like that garbage coming out of a Tea Party speaker.

As to education, look up "Obama voters" on YouTube if you really want to see uneducated morons taking part in the political process.

MasterKiller

04-08-2010, 01:48 PM

You show me anything like that garbage coming out of a Tea Party speaker.

http://blogs.e-rockford.com/applesauce/files/2009/09/racist_tea_party.jpg

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll316/sandyonsignal/teapartypic.jpg

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2009/POLITICS/09/17/obama.witchdoctor.teaparty/art.obama.protest.sign.cnn.jpg

http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/teapartysign1sm.jpg

YouKnowWho

04-08-2010, 02:47 PM

If you don't think taxes are going up to pay for all this "free" healthcare, you're insane. And FYI, the regime just yesterday said a Federal sales tax may be coming soon...

I thought Austin, Texas is still a blue city in the red state.

7 years ago right after I retired from IBM in Austin, Tx, my health insurace cost me $500 monthly. 7 years later it cost me $1,100 monthly. Since I live on fix amount of IBM pension check, if my health insurance double in another 7 years, I won't be able to afford it. I have worked for IBM for 28 years and retired formally. I consider myself as middle class and hard working people. If I have problem with the current health insurance, I can see others who are in my age will have the same problem.

If the insurance company win, we'll all lose.

Pork Chop

04-08-2010, 02:58 PM

I'm the guy who says interest rates did not soar during Reagan's terms. And I'm the guy thats right about that. It is what it is.

I think there's some confusion over terminology

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_interest_rate

The "real interest rate" is approximately the nominal interest rate minus the inflation rate (see Fisher equation and below for exact equation). Since the inflation rate over the course of a loan is not known initially, volatility in inflation represents a risk to both the lender and the borrower.

because that guy's not wrong.

http://www.nber.org/papers/w3037
(national bureau of economic research)

During the first Reagan term, the battle to lower inflation acted to
maintain the high real interest rates carried over from the Carter years
and, while the increase in structural deficits did not raise real rates
much, the reduction in private saving due to the unwinding of the second
OPEC shock and an aggressive foreign policy that heightened fear of nuclear
war raised real interest rates to levels not seen since the late 1920s.

YouKnowWho

04-08-2010, 03:04 PM

One thing that I don't understand is when Bush started the war and spent lot of federal government money, the right wind conservative didn't say anything. Why?

Pork Chop

04-08-2010, 03:05 PM

I have worked for IBM for 28 years and retired formally.

I used to work for ibm from 1998 to 2000 in the AIX risc/6000 tech support group.
I remember trying to find your training group at the park a few times, but didn't have any luck; didn't realize you actually worked there - i lived right across the street.
ended up training with pickens.
small world :)

my health insurance recently jumped almost $100 a month and the amount of service went down. this is supposedly in preparation for taxes that aren't going to hit for another 8 years. i doubt i'll even be at the same company or on the same insurance in 5 years, let alone 8. so i'm not a huge fan of insurance companies and believe very little of what they say. if this legislation does half of what it's been touted/promised to do I don't think i'll complain.

Pork Chop

04-08-2010, 03:08 PM

One thing that I don't understand is when Bush started the war and spent lot of federal government money, the right wind conservative didn't say anything. Why?

my point exactly.

and why weren't they talking about "big brother" or our civil rights being eroded when the patriot act was eclipsing the bill of rights? or when the previous administration was caught straight out ignoring the privacy act and other protections when it suited them? where were these Tea Party people then?

given that my dad was military, i grew up with a lot of conservative influence, but these days I just can't believe anything that comes out of their mouths.

YouKnowWho

04-08-2010, 03:13 PM

I used to work for ibm from 1998 to 2000 in the AIX risc/6000 tech support group.
I remember trying to find your training group at the park a few times, but didn't have any luck; didn't realize you actually worked there - i lived right across the street.
ended up training with pickens.
small world :)
My group used to meet next to the basketball court. Right now that park had been converted into a shopping center now.

http://www.yelp.com/biz_photos/Ug2bD2dM783boFdBWPVLVQ?select=y9ATM9T5etEjLlZqv-_fow

Pork Chop

04-08-2010, 03:15 PM

My group used to meet next to the basketball court. Right now that park had been converted into a shopping center now.

http://www.yelp.com/biz_photos/Ug2bD2dM783boFdBWPVLVQ?select=y9ATM9T5etEjLlZqv-_fow

wait, that's not on IBM campus is it?
maybe i was thinking the wrong park entirely!

YouKnowWho

04-08-2010, 03:16 PM

Maybe you still remember this park:

http://johnswang.com/Side_Door_Chop.wmv

http://johnswang.com/tearing_resist.wmv

Sorry for the side track. Now come back to the tea party. I believe there are at most 20% of ths US population who share the same view with the tea party. It's a minority group that will not do much harm to US any way.

1bad65

04-09-2010, 07:02 AM

I'm asking for a speaker at Tea Party event guys.

See, Exalted Cyclops Byrd is a sitting Senator, so I want a speaker. Not just a pic of someone who may or may not be a Tea Partier. Again, I could go to a Democrat meeeting and hold up racist signs, it says nothing about the event itself. So again, I want a speaker.

1bad65

04-09-2010, 07:05 AM

One thing that I don't understand is when Bush started the war and spent lot of federal government money, the right wind conservative didn't say anything. Why?

Nor did Hillary or Edwards. They voted 'yes', agreeing with Bush. Obama was not in the Senate at that time, so he did not vote.

1bad65

04-09-2010, 07:10 AM

my point exactly.

and why weren't they talking about "big brother" or our civil rights being eroded when the patriot act was eclipsing the bill of rights? or when the previous administration was caught straight out ignoring the privacy act and other protections when it suited them? where were these Tea Party people then?

given that my dad was military, i grew up with a lot of conservative influence, but these days I just can't believe anything that comes out of their mouths.

Actually, many of the Tea Partiers tend to have Libertarian beliefs. Ron Paul voted against the Patriot Act, and he is pretty much a Libertarian (anti-income tax, pro-drug legalization, anti-war).

Someone here mentioned Austin's politics earlier. While we are liberal here (Bolshevik Doggett is our Congressman), the local headshops (Planet K) were huge Ron Paul supporters. I actually saw more Ron Paul bumper stickers around town than Obama ones.

David Jamieson

04-09-2010, 07:32 AM

STFU with that racist crap. The Democrats are the Party with the KKK Exalted Cyclops sitting in the Senate. Not the Tea Party. Not the Republicans.

And let's see what the Exalted Cyclops says on race:
"I shall never fight in the armed forces with a Negro by my side... Rather I should die a thousand times, and see Old Glory trampled in the dirt never to rise again, than to see this beloved land of ours become degraded by race mongrels, a throwback to the blackest specimen from the wilds." -Robert Byrd (D-WV)

You show me anything like that garbage coming out of a Tea Party speaker.

As to education, look up "Obama voters" on YouTube if you really want to see uneducated morons taking part in the political process.

wow, you are deluded aren't you.

you got one old man from ancient egypt ****ing dust and in the meantime there are loads and loads of pics of what is clearly blatant and unbridled racism and hate coming from tea party meetings.

and you are telling people to stfu?

dude, open your eyes! take that wool off of them.
YOu support everything taht is wrong with your country.

I find it somewhat odd and a little strange that you even continue. It's as if you are shilling for someone or some org.

1bad65

04-09-2010, 09:08 AM

wow, you are deluded aren't you.

you got one old man from ancient egypt ****ing dust and in the meantime there are loads and loads of pics of what is clearly blatant and unbridled racism and hate coming from tea party meetings.

Ancient Egypt my foot, the guy is still in the Senate!

Again, pics don't count as you cannot tell if the person is a legit Tea Party person or a plant. Notice I keep asking for speakers spouting racism (and I provide proof of Democrats doing it), and not one of you can show me one example.

and you are telling people to stfu?

dude, open your eyes! take that wool off of them.
YOu support everything taht is wrong with your country.

I'll tell anyone who lumps me in with racists and Nazis to STFU.

So low taxes, small government, and rewarding achievement is what's wrong with my country? Get real.

I find it somewhat odd and a little strange that you even continue. It's as if you are shilling for someone or some org.

Nope. I'm just an American who wants whats best for my country, and I want to keep more of MY hard-earned money for my family.

This isn't even Obama's home country.

1bad65

04-09-2010, 09:11 AM

I find it somewhat odd and a little strange that you even continue. It's as if you are shilling for someone or some org.

I find it somewhat odd that a Canadian would continue to debate an American about politics in America. ;)

MasterKiller

04-09-2010, 09:55 AM

Ancient Egypt my foot, the guy is still in the Senate!

Again, pics don't count as you cannot tell if the person is a legit Tea Party person or a plant. Notice I keep asking for speakers spouting racism (and I provide proof of Democrats doing it), and not one of you can show me one example.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8500HxYv-FE&feature=related

That's Sarah Palin speaking in the background.

Of course, you'll say he's a plant...:rolleyes:

1bad65

04-09-2010, 10:41 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8500HxYv-FE&feature=related

That's Sarah Palin speaking in the background.

Of course, you'll say he's a plant...:rolleyes:

Well, he isn't a speaker. Are you guys not understanding what I'm asking for here?

I'm pretty sure you guys are not this dense, don't make me think otherwise. ;)

Pork Chop

04-09-2010, 11:23 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8500HxYv-FE&feature=related

That's Sarah Palin speaking in the background.

Of course, you'll say he's a plant...:rolleyes:

what's funny to me is that one of those links i posted itself linked to a neo nazi forum where one of them said they were going to come down here to that rally.

-----

problem with asking for speakers is that we already outted the fact that the coordinators (i don't say "leaders" because there are no leaders) know that racism is unpopular enough that it could sink their movement if they made a platform of it, they just don't disapprove of it enough to stamp it out from their rallies.

-----

that quote you attributed from robert byrd was from 1944.
i figure we should at least put more info about the man on the table.
byrd took office in 1959.
he filibustered the civil rights act of 1968.
you also forgot to mention that he's third in line for succession of the presidency at the moment (behind biden and pelosi).
but of course people can't change their minds in 40 years, right?
He was given a 100% approval rating by the NAACP for the 2003-2004 congressional session and is responsible for the following quote:

I know now I was wrong. Intolerance had no place in America. I apologized a thousand times... and I don't mind apologizing over and over again. I can't erase what happened.

interesting to note, david duke was originally a democrat before turning republican.
to the republicans' credit, they never really accepted him into the fold.

thing i don't get is how this became a dem vs republican thing.
head of the republican party's black, so i ain't bashing the republican party.
i'm bashing the tea party; who, on occasion, bash the republican establishment.

i actually agree with ron paul on some things, i just think that smaller government isn't the answer (not even feasible at this point).

-----

you act like there's a level playing field when it comes to achievement.
like achievement is won by merit & hard work alone.
this is not the case.
if i make millions of dollars for a company only to get sh!t-canned & lose my house when some under-educated, over-paid ceo can't add simple numbers or gets caught breaking the law, then where's the fairness in that?
what's right about that?
why is it an evil, socialist thing when a government program steps in to help me keep from losing everything?
meanwhile, a guy who has his job because of family connections that sent him to the right schools & gave him a head start in the good ole boy's club is given a loaded gun & a free ride to make bad decision and ruin the lives of thousands of people (see recent layoffs).
Sorry I'm not "blinded by some kind of dreamy notion of the majesty of the individual, who perseveres against all odds, etc etc."

1bad65

04-09-2010, 12:06 PM

problem with asking for speakers is that we already outted the fact that the coordinators (i don't say "leaders" because there are no leaders) know that racism is unpopular enough that it could sink their movement if they made a platform of it, they just don't disapprove of it enough to stamp it out from their rallies.

The problem with asking for speakers is that you guys can't find them. ;)

As for time passed, do I need to post up some racist diatribes by Obama's pastor that were more recent?

you act like there's a level playing field when it comes to achievement.
like achievement is won by merit & hard work alone.
this is not the case.
if i make millions of dollars for a company only to get sh!t-canned & lose my house when some under-educated, over-paid ceo can't add simple numbers or gets caught breaking the law, then where's the fairness in that?
what's right about that?
why is it an evil, socialist thing when a government program steps in to help me keep from losing everything?
Sorry I'm not "blinded by some kind of dreamy notion of the majesty of the individual, who perseveres against all odds, etc etc."

There is a level playing field. You have every right every other American has. Well, except for Congressmen who exempt themselves from many of the laws they pass.

Is our system perfect? No. But it's alot better to reward success than to reward failure, right? Please tell me you agree with that.

meanwhile, a guy who has his job because of family connections that sent him to the right schools & gave him a head start in the good ole boy's club is given a loaded gun & a free ride to make bad decision and ruin the lives of thousands of people (see recent layoffs).

Are you talking about Ted Kennedy here? Heck, that guy even got a freebie murder.

1bad65

04-09-2010, 12:08 PM

Sorry I'm not "blinded by some kind of dreamy notion of the majesty of the individual, who perseveres against all odds, etc etc."

That's truly sad you don't believe in that.

Pork Chop

04-09-2010, 12:42 PM

The problem with asking for speakers is that you guys can't find them. ;)

Whatever floats your boat man.
maybe i'm just too busy being a plant in every single tea party rally out there to dig up some speakers. :rolleyes:

There is a level playing field. You have every right every other American has. Well, except for Congressmen who exempt themselves from many of the laws they pass.

really?
I can be an alcoholic cocaine user and still be elected president?
oh yeah that's right i can't.
i wasn't born in the usa...

Is our system perfect? No. But it's alot better to reward success than to reward failure, right? Please tell me you agree with that.

where's the failure in the part of the guy who works hard, earns the company money but still gets laid off and loses his house?

Are you talking about Ted Kennedy here? Heck, that guy even got a freebie murder.

not a kennedy fan, but i'm sure you can hang at least as many murders/civilian deaths on dubya.

Pork Chop

04-09-2010, 12:55 PM

That's truly sad you don't believe in that.

you think this country rewards hard work?
you think this country rewards education (smart people)?
the hardest workers in this country make the least amount of money.
the smartest & most educated people in a lot of businesses (including mine) are some of the lowest paid.
this country rewards managers, they're the ones that make the most.
if you think that where you went to school or where your family's from doesn't make a difference in getting into upper management, then you know less about business than I even thought.
look up some statistics sometime on female and minority representation in the upper levels of management.
the common accepted theory (excuse) is that bosses tend to promote people that they can relate with; so if you don't come from a certain background, it's not common to break into the club.
there is definitely a lot of class-ism in our society.
to pretend that there's not, or that jumping up the class ladder is as simple as hard work or education is naive.

mawali

04-09-2010, 01:14 PM

This isn't even Obama's home country.

This is utterly false! As long as one parent is America, then per the laws of the Constitution, Obama is. Personally, I would say he is of immigrant background but he is still American in all aspects of association.
I thought such people believed in the sanctity of the US Constitution!

American citizenship is bestowed upon a newborn child in two instances: if the child is born on American soil, or if at least one parent is a citizen of the US. Barack Obama was born in 1961 on Honolulu, in the US state of Hawaii. His father was Kenyan. His mother, however, was American; therefore President Obama is undoubtedly a US citizen.

MasterKiller

04-09-2010, 01:19 PM

This is utterly false! As long as one parent is America, then per the laws of the Constitution, Obama is. Personally, I would say he is of immigrant background but he is still American in all aspects of association.
I thought such people believed in the sanctity of the US Constitution!

You took the bait.

Here comes the video of Michelle Obama's speech in 3...2...1...

SanHeChuan

04-09-2010, 01:43 PM

How Multinational Corporations Dodge Taxes (http://bigthink.com/ideas/19511)

For all the talk about how taxes are too high in the United States, American businesses are paying less now than they used to. In fact, many major corporations don't pay the U.S. government any taxes at all.

1bad65

04-09-2010, 01:50 PM

really?
I can be an alcoholic cocaine user and still be elected president?
oh yeah that's right i can't.
i wasn't born in the usa...

First off, I should have been more clear. Every natural born American has the same rights and opportunities.

Second, Obama's home country is Kenya, and he got elected President. So you might well be able to. ;)

where's the failure in the part of the guy who works hard, earns the company money but still gets laid off and loses his house?

We have unemployment for that. Welfare is a different story. I'm for completely eliminating that.

not a kennedy fan, but i'm sure you can hang at least as many murders/civilian deaths on dubya.

Nope. But nice try.

1bad65

04-09-2010, 01:52 PM

You took the bait.

LMAO at him getting outsmarted by the racist, Nazi, cold-hearted, greedy conservative. ;)

1bad65

04-09-2010, 01:52 PM

How Multinational Corporations Dodge Taxes (http://bigthink.com/ideas/19511)

Oh Jeez, not this worn out playbook again. :rolleyes:

Pork Chop

04-09-2010, 02:22 PM

Nope. But nice try.

yeah, if a president doesn't have to shoulder the burden for an illegal war that he started, and led to the deaths of innocent civilians, then we definitely don't have much to talk about.

funny "worn out playbook" must be a common sentiment, coz that's definitely how i feel about this circle of: "say something stup!d, get proven wrong, deflect by bashing some non-related democrat", rinse, repeat, ad nauseum.

I think you identify yourself too much with criticisms of the tea party.
you've got some conservative view points, fine.
Maybe you've even gone to a rally & want to enact some political change.
I don't see the point of over-identifying with a lot of the nutbags.
It shouldn't be so hard to point out or agree with flaws in your own constituency.

ps - define "natural born" ;) coz my "birth of us citizen abroad" birth certificate means i've been a US citizen since birth, and i wasn't born out of some test tube.

SanHeChuan

04-09-2010, 05:58 PM

Oh Jeez, not this worn out playbook again. :rolleyes:

Yes I understand how tiresome the truth would seem to someone like you. :p

David Jamieson

04-10-2010, 06:21 AM

I find it somewhat odd that a Canadian would continue to debate an American about politics in America. ;)

why? It's clear that many canadians understand american politics more than many americans do and you should be happy that at least someone cares about it.

your complaint is typical of someone who stands on a weak and flimsy proposition and then seeks to eliminate voices based on spots, creeds, color etc. And yes, I will continue to lump you in with racists so long as you insist on running with them.

no apologies there dude. You support racists agendas and racist attitudes. It only makes sense that despite your diatribes and despite your semantics that you too are likely a racist who in particular doesn't like black people.

maybe it's because you're one of those "real" americans? I don't know, but it seems that those who brand themselves as such are indeed quite racist by all implications. I mean you're not saying anything about the massive intolerance, anti black and anti gay rhetoric coming out of the tea party camp, so you must agree with it right?

feel free to keep whining about losing political argument to people who aren't even your countrymen though. It certainly proves how weak your position is to begin with after all. :)

1bad65

04-12-2010, 07:29 AM

Yes I understand how tiresome the truth would seem to someone like you. :p

It's only tiresome to have to keep explaining the truth to liberals, yet seeing them rarely able to grasp (or accept) it.

86% of all Federal income taxes are paid by the top 25% of income earners. This is actually up from 2000 when it was 84%. So there goes your 'Bush only gave the rich tax cuts' bs.

The top 50% of wage earners pay 97% of all income taxes.

And the top 1% of wage earners pay 39% of all income taxes, again up from 2000 when they paid 37%.

Sources:
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-soi/05in05tr.xls
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB119786208643933077.html

And yes, one of my sources is the Internal Revenue Service. ;)

1bad65

04-12-2010, 07:32 AM

And yes, I will continue to lump you in with racists so long as you insist on running with them.

Then you are a piece of ****.

FYI, I have Jewish blood in me. My Jewish ancestors came here from Kracow, Poland. That is, the ones who survived the Holocaust.

So I despise racists, and are disgusted by them. And if you keep calling me a racist or a Nazi, then **** you.

And yes, I'll take my ban if it comes my way. But you started it by repeatedly calling me a racist.

1bad65

04-12-2010, 07:34 AM

feel free to keep whining about losing political argument to people who aren't even your countrymen though. It certainly proves how weak your position is to begin with after all. :)

Yeah, I'm really getting drubbed. :rolleyes:

While I supply sources like the IRS to back my assertions up, you guys can't show even one racist speaker at a Tea Party event you guys claim are overran with Nazis and racists.

David Jamieson

04-12-2010, 07:41 AM

Then you are a piece of ****.

FYI, I have Jewish blood in me. My Jewish ancestors came here from Kracow, Poland. That is, the ones who survived the Holocaust.

So I despise racists, and are disgusted by them. And if you keep calling me a racist or a Nazi, then **** you.

And yes, I'll take my ban if it comes my way. But you started it by repeatedly calling me a racist.

seriously dude, you are protesting too much. lol

I really don't care who you are or where you came form or who your ancestors are. It doesn't diminish the fact that you stand on the side of people who actively promote racism and discrimination against others based on race creed and colour ergo you are throwing in with these folks which makes you one of them.

I understand how you may not like that because you are a cherry picker who tries to navigate as carefully as he can through al of it so that he can cling to his racism but not have to fess up to it.

Besides, I'm sure you are aware that "jewish" is not a race. But, this is just another example of your racist attitude. I'm calling you a racist again, and with your last little blowout, I think it's even clearer than before! :)

By all means, keep on with your ridiculous and transparent hateful remarks. lol

1bad65

04-12-2010, 08:00 AM

I really don't care who you are or where you came form or who your ancestors are. It doesn't diminish the fact that you stand on the side of people who actively promote racism and discrimination against others based on race creed and colour ergo you are throwing in with these folks which makes you one of them.

David, how can you say this when you can't even show one example? :rolleyes:

And yes, it's obvious you don;t care, or els you wouldn't repeatedly lower yourself to launching personal, untrue attacks.

I understand how you may not like that because you are a cherry picker who tries to navigate as carefully as he can through al of it so that he can cling to his racism but not have to fess up to it.

**** you.

Besides, I'm sure you are aware that "jewish" is not a race. But, this is just another example of your racist attitude. I'm calling you a racist again, and with your last little blowout, I think it's even clearer than before! :)

By all means, keep on with your ridiculous and transparent hateful remarks. lol

**** you again.

Many people do consider it a race, as well as a religion.

1bad65

04-12-2010, 08:04 AM

yeah, if a president doesn't have to shoulder the burden for an illegal war that he started, and led to the deaths of innocent civilians, then we definitely don't have much to talk about.

He could have ended it by now. Instead, he is spending even more on the war than Bush did.

funny "worn out playbook" must be a common sentiment, coz that's definitely how i feel about this circle of: "say something stup!d, get proven wrong, deflect by bashing some non-related democrat", rinse, repeat, ad nauseum.

You go ahead and tell yourself that.

I think you identify yourself too much with criticisms of the tea party.
you've got some conservative view points, fine.
Maybe you've even gone to a rally & want to enact some political change.
I don't see the point of over-identifying with a lot of the nutbags.
It shouldn't be so hard to point out or agree with flaws in your own constituency.

ps - define "natural born" ;) coz my "birth of us citizen abroad" birth certificate means i've been a US citizen since birth, and i wasn't born out of some test tube.

What criticisms? Lower taxes? Smaller Government? Less Government intervention in our lives?

I've actually never been to a rally/meeting. I may go to one in the future, but who knows.

As to citizenship, it's easy. If you are born here, you are a citizen. If you are born on a military base and your parents are citizens, you are a citizen. That should about cover it, right?

1bad65

04-12-2010, 08:05 AM

seriously dude, you are protesting too much. lol

If someone repeatedly called you a child molester, I'm sure you would protest it as well. As well you should.

David Jamieson

04-12-2010, 08:07 AM

David, how can you say this when you can't even show one example? :rolleyes:

And yes, it's obvious you don;t care, or els you wouldn't repeatedly lower yourself to launching personal, untrue attacks.

**** you.

**** you again.

Many people do consider it a race, as well as a religion.

Uh, many people consider a religion a race? really? what people are those may I ask?

As a person who claims jewish extraction somewhat, please tell me who thinks jews are a race?

you can tell me to **** you all you like, but your are digging your own grave here with your comments and opinions dude.

I am not launching personal attacks, I am merely stating what I observe in your posts. This one here is a major slip by the way. So I quoted it in order to not allow your redaction of yet one more remarkably ignorant and racist claim.

1bad65

04-12-2010, 09:22 AM

Uh, many people consider a religion a race? really? what people are those may I ask?

As a person who claims jewish extraction somewhat, please tell me who thinks jews are a race?

I have no idea of how many people think that, but quite a few do. The Nazis considered it a race, for example.

As to it being a religion, I've noticed that Jews and converted Jews are generally looked at as two groups, but yet it's the same religion.

you can tell me to **** you all you like, but your are digging your own grave here with your comments and opinions dude.

I am not launching personal attacks, I am merely stating what I observe in your posts. This one here is a major slip by the way. So I quoted it in order to not allow your redaction of yet one more remarkably ignorant and racist claim.

Can you perhaps show example(s) of my racism?

David Jamieson

04-12-2010, 09:23 AM

If someone repeatedly called you a child molester, I'm sure you would protest it as well. As well you should.

If I was to exhibit indication that I was, then I would not have much to fight with would I.

Is this something you would like to do? would you like to call me a child molester because i ma pointing out that what you are saying is racist? Is it because many of the tea party people are flat out publicly showing they are racists and that the rest of the people involved are clearly tolerant of that in their ranks. I mean, I don't see anyone pulling those racist signs out of those tea party hands and denouncing them. I don't see you denouncing them or trying to speak about the problem of racism in the tea party groups.

and then your whole flaming nose dive about jewish people...well, that was kind of a seal on the envelope of your antics 1bad.

I'm Jewish by conversion. I was to be married at one time and it was part of that commitment. It fell through, but I am still a convert. Are you telling me that I changed my race? I don't practice Judaism, except when at another Jewish home on a Jewish holiday.

I don't practice Christianity either, unless, under the same circumstances I find myself in the home of someone who does this religious practice and I will participate with them in their practice in their home out of respect for them and their belief. No harm. :)

I am not buddhist, but i have offered incense, I have chanted and I have taken dharma lessons and read with some regularity from the sutras, I also read the bible regularly.

I wonder if you can even grasp that kind of thing?