One feather cannot be added.

[Hendrik]

In the treatise of Tai Chi by Wang Zong Yue.
http://www.whynaturalhealth.co.uk/taichi/index.cfm?s=classics&p=treatise


It said,

One feather cannot be added.


What is One feather cannot be added means? How is that apply to practicing and Applying TaiChi?

[kfson]

I would guess it means something as light as a feather would be extremely burdensome... similar to the straw that broke the camel's back or a parallel concept, 4 ounces that moves 4 tons.

[MartialDev]

"One feather cannot be added" means that your equilibrium is so precise, that the weight/pressure of even one feather will signal you to move the rest of your body in compensation.

What it does NOT mean--attention ZMQ students--is that one feather will knock you over. :p

[scholar]

"one feather cannot be added" means that your equilibrium is so precise, that the weight/pressure of even one feather will signal you to move the rest of your body in compensation.

What it does not mean--attention zmq students--is that one feather will knock you over. :p

+1

At an advanced enough level any motion, any change of position, from the inside or the outside, no matter how slight, will change everything...

[taai gihk yahn]

In the treatise of Tai Chi by Wang Zong Yue.
http://www.whynaturalhealth.co.uk/taichi/index.cfm?s=classics&p=treatise


It said,

One feather cannot be added.


What is One feather cannot be added means? How is that apply to practicing and Applying TaiChi?

feather = thought; thoughts float in and "stick" to you; in the state of pure mho gihk, no thoughts attach...

[Hendrik]

The questions still remain,


What is One feather cannot be added means?
How is that apply to practicing and Applying TaiChi?

[dirtyrat]

The questions still remain,


What is One feather cannot be added means?
How is that apply to practicing and Applying TaiChi?

I thought it has something to do with sensitivity and awareness.

What do you think it means, Hendrik?

[Hendrik]

I thought it has something to do with sensitivity and awareness.

What do you think it means, Hendrik?



What do I think doesnt mean a thing.

The issue is how is one's lineage transmission is.


IMHO,

Awareness, Sensitivity, thought, no thought...equilibrium....etc are nice words but mean nothing when it comes to practice. Answer with these words might as well said, " I dont know'.

[dirtyrat]

What do I think doesnt mean a thing.

The issue is how is one's lineage transmission is.


IMHO,

Awareness, Sensitivity, thought, no thought...equilibrium....etc are nice words but mean nothing when it comes to practice. Answer with these words might as well said, " I dont know'.

then why bother starting a discussion on it, Hendrik? Are you looking for someone on this board? Hmmm.... ;)

I don't practice taijiquan anymore but I feel the above words still holds importance in practice. Without them, you're just mindlessly performing a dance routine.

[Hendrik]

then why bother starting a discussion on it, Hendrik? Are you looking for someone on this board? Hmmm.... ;)

I don't practice taijiquan anymore but I feel the above words still holds importance in practice. Without them, you're just mindlessly performing a dance routine.



Since there are lots of people practice Taiji or internal art here. I am looking for comparing notes with others.

the answer given by each person reflex which area one is working in.


you said
Without them, you're just mindlessly performing a dance routine.
IMHO even with it if it is up for any intepretation, it is also mindlessly dancing.

[dirtyrat]

Since there are lots of people practice Taiji or internal art here. I am looking for comparing notes with others.

and yet you don't share any of yours....

[dirtyrat]

IMHO even with it if it is up for any intepretation, it is also mindlessly dancing.

No one's going to get it on the first try. But that's normal in the course of learning.

A teacher is important but they can only point you in the right direction (like when you "touch hands" with your sifu). Its up to the student to do the work.

[Hendrik]

No one's going to get it on the first try. But that's normal in the course of learning.

A teacher is important but they can only point you in the right direction (like when you "touch hands" with your sifu). Its up to the student to do the work.



I totally agree with you.
Decades ago , I myself too likes to interperate my way with my logic. and later find out it really is a wasting of time.

IMHO, No one's going to get it on the first try is no a valid is no longer a truth for me. That is because if one got the proper direction, then the first try might not get it precise but it will not out of the range.

What I experience is that in general we get it out of the range via our own intepretation and could never get any result no matter how we try later because our concept is out of the range to begin with.


To touch hands with a sifu could also misleading, IMHO.
one dont have to touch hand with a sifu to be told what is and how to apply the "One feather cannot be added." concept. and if the sifu doesnt know then touching hand with him just makes two ignorance. IMHO

on the other hand, those who think they can get the answer by deriving from books reading are also trouble most of the time.

so, the questions remain, what is One feather cannot be added. how to apply and what will one attain with practice it correct?

[extrajoseph]

What is “one feather cannot be added”?

It means your body is so sensitized through long and correct training that even a minute movement from your opponent, like a feather landing on your body, can set off your reaction. It is a metaphor for excellence but in reality probably impossible to achieve due to limitation in our sensitivity to touch.

How to apply?

When practising Taiji, lift the crown of your head as though it is being suspended from above with the Qi sunk to the lower Dantian. Strictly move in accordance with the gravitational force, without leaning or inclining to the front, back or to the sides.

Keeping your body integrity while building up your body awareness, so over time when the right feels the any touch, the left will respond and while the left feels any touch, the right will respond immediately.

If your opponent wants to push you upward you can go up with him even higher without losing your integrity by constantly following the gravitational force. If your opponent wants to push you downward you can go down with him even lower without losing your integrity by constantly following the gravitational force. In the end you can be so sensitive and so fast that you are as light as a feather when moving forward or retreating.

What will one attain with practice correctly?

Your opponent will not be able to sense you while you alone can sense him, because you have developed your sensitivity with speed to such an extend that even a feather cannot be added, to use a metaphor, without you knowing.

These are just words, but if you have a chance to do some push-hands with the likes of Chen Xiaowang, then you will understand the degree of sensitivity we are capable of, but of course none of us can be a superman and go beyond our human capability.

Hence "one feather cannot be added" is a metaphor of sensitivity we aim for but it is not something we can actually do.

[Hendrik]

Excellent Sharing.

IMHO,
In my experience, This is very similar with how I would write about it years ago. I found it is loaded with lots of good information. However, none of it is that useful to make the internal art to become real. With all these information, one certainly still cant do it or cant enter into the door.

In my lineage, “one feather cannot be added” turn out to be a practicing method which needs to follow on every move.






What is “one feather cannot be added”?

It means your body is so sensitized through long and correct training that even a minute movement from your opponent, like a feather landing on your body, can set off your reaction. It is a metaphor for excellence but in reality probably impossible to achieve due to limitation in our sensitivity to touch.

How to apply?

When practising Taiji, lift the crown of your head as though it is being suspended from above with the Qi sunk to the lower Dantian. Strictly move in accordance with the gravitational force, without leaning or inclining to the front, back or to the sides.

Keeping your body integrity while building up your body awareness, so over time when the right feels the any touch, the left will respond and while the left feels any touch, the right will respond immediately.

If your opponent wants to push you upward you can go up with him even higher without losing your integrity by constantly following the gravitational force. If your opponent wants to push you downward you can go down with him even lower without losing your integrity by constantly following the gravitational force. In the end you can be so sensitive and so fast that you are as light as a feather when moving forward or retreating.

What will one attain with practice correctly?

Your opponent will not be able to sense you while you alone can sense him, because you have developed your sensitivity with speed to such an extend that even a feather cannot be added, to use a metaphor, without you knowing.

These are just words, but if you have a chance to do some push-hands with the likes of Chen Xiaowang, then you will understand the degree of sensitivity we are capable of, but of course none of us can be a superman and go beyond our human capability.

Hence "one feather cannot be added" is a metaphor of sensitivity we aim for but it is not something we can actually do.

[YouKnowWho]

What is One feather cannot be added means?

I truly don't believe it makes any sense. It's so difficult to achieve this kind of extream situation that the waight of one feather can make any difference.

[Hendrik]

I truly don't believe it makes any sense. It's so difficult to achieve this kind of extream situation that the waight of one feather can make any difference.


I am totally agree with you if we explain it as literature or philosophy.

[dirtyrat]

From A Study of T'ai Chi Push-Hands by Xiang Kai Zhang

There is also a saying, "A feather cannot be added, a fly cannot alight." That is to say, push-hands must be practiced with completely refined and acute sensitivity. Then even if a feather or something as light as a fly falls on the body, it will be felt.

But one does not allow the feather to stop or the fly to rest its feet, The feather cannot stop because it does not arrive at a flat or stable surface, For the same reason, the fly cannot stand balanced; it will not stop its fluttering wings and alight on the body. This is an extreme way of describing the light agility of T'ai Chi push-hands.

Both of the tai chi instructors I studied with encouraged me to take up dancing. When I learned the waltz, I decided to have fun with this by making my leads more and more subtle as we went along. Some gals would complain, but a couple of my partners were really good at following my leads. I really learned a lot from them.

[Hendrik]

IMHO






There is also a saying, "A feather cannot be added, a fly cannot alight." That is to say, push-hands must be practiced with completely refined and acute sensitivity. Then even if a feather or something as light as a fly falls on the body, it will be felt.

But one does not allow the feather to stop or the fly to rest its feet, The feather cannot stop because it does not arrive at a flat or stable surface, For the same reason, the fly cannot stand balanced; it will not stop its fluttering wings and alight on the body. This is an extreme way of describing the light agility of T'ai Chi push-hands.



A good sharing however anyone who follow this will not attain anything but confusion.











Both of the tai chi instructors I studied with encouraged me to take up dancing. When I learned the waltz, I decided to have fun with this by making my leads more and more subtle as we went along. Some gals would complain, but a couple of my partners were really good at following my leads. I really learned a lot from them.

Dance get one to be more loose up. however that still is not A feather cannot be added.

[YouKnowWho]

A good sharing however anyone who follow this will not attain anything but confusion.

This is the problem when discussing abstract subject like this. If you said that you are confused, people will say that your MA skill is not in high level. If you said that you understand it clearly, you may not be honest to yourself. It's a lose-lose discussion subject IMO. :D

[Hendrik]

This is the problem when discussing abstract subject like this. If you said that you are confused, people will say that your MA skill is not in high level. If you said that you understand it clearly, you may not be honest to yourself. It's a lose-lose discussion subject IMO. :D


IMHO,

It is like the Zen discussion, some presenting confusing stuffs and if you point that out, people will say that you dont know Zen and attack you that way just because they like to be the guru of high level.

To be real honest, this is what get the Chinese IMA into trouble. often people think these fuzzy and confusing stuff are superior and can get one into short cut and become a super star some days. but in fact that some days never come because that is not the way how it suppose to work.

[YouKnowWho]

this is what get the Chinese IMA into trouble.
Agree 100% there. When EMA guys are sweating in their hard work out, the IMA guys sit around table, drink tea, and talk about abstract subjects. :D

[dirtyrat]

Dance get one to be more loose up. however that still is not A feather cannot be added.

We have yet to hear any of your thoughts on the subject, friend.....

[Hendrik]

We have yet to hear any of your thoughts on the subject, friend.....


As in my previous post, One feather cannot be added is a method of training needs to perform in every move for my lineage, nothing abstract at all.

as it says


There are many other kinds of martial arts. Although their forms are distinct from one another, overall they are nothing more than the strong taking advantage of the weak, or merely the slow yielding to the quick. Having strength to strike those without strength, the slow of hand giving way to the quick of hand - these are all from inherent natural ability, and bear no relationship to the capability that comes from earnest study. Examine the expression "Four ounces deflect one thousand pounds." Clearly this is not accomplished by means of strength. Observe a situation in which one who is aged can skillfully fend off a throng. How can this ability be one of speed?

without the One feather cannot be added is a method of training one will never get to the above state.

[Hendrik]

Agree 100% there. When EMA guys are sweating in their hard work out, the IMA guys sit around table, drink tea, and talk about abstract subjects. :D


In the reality, the IMA guys has to train atleast 100% more then the EMA guys because there are more training needs to be done in additional to the EMA basics. IMHO

[dirtyrat]

As in my previous post, One feather cannot be added is a method of training needs to perform in every move for my lineage, nothing abstract at all.

without the One feather cannot be added is a method of training one will never get to the above state.

i think i know where you're going with this.

could you tell us more about this training method you're talking about?

[extrajoseph]

Excellent Sharing.

IMHO,
In my experience, This is very similar with how I would write about it years ago. I found it is loaded with lots of good information. However, none of it is that useful to make the internal art to become real. With all these information, one certainly still cant do it or cant enter into the door.

In my lineage, “one feather cannot be added” turn out to be a practicing method which needs to follow on every move.

The theory implied that one should do every movement with “one feather cannot be added” in mind, that goes without saying. It becomes real when one puts the theory to applications in practice, that is how to enter any doors.

[Hendrik]

i think i know where you're going with this.

could you tell us more about this training method you're talking about?



Certainly a training method is not a wish and also not some abstract philosophy but something one needs to drill on it again and again and again ....


IMHO, a common problem in IMA is one confuse between ideas, abstract philosophy, thoughts, reality, and skill cultivation.

For example, those who train Taiji with music, that sure will give one some feeling of ease and freedom, but that is not different then solo slow dance which is experessing one's idea. But Those are not martial art.

There are those train Taiji with all kind of philosophical saying, that sure will give one some type of mystical talk which sound deep. similar to David carredin's look and talk in the kung fu TV series. But those are a personal fantasy similar to writing a book the way one wants and feel satisfaction with it ...etc.


There are those train Taiji similar to new age religion on peace and relax, that sure will give one some type of relaxation. however, that is not Taiji because one needs to get deep into the loosing to get to one feather cannot add state of mind and body.




if one can do the one feather cannot add, then one can make the opponent think it is a wall but found out it is a piece of silk at contact, there the opponent will react to throw him/herself backward with all cost in order to keep the balance. and one uses no force at all, in fact, one dissolve one's force away at the instant to let the opponent has no pivot to nail.
This is the state of Hua Jin or dissolve the incoming jin. it is not resist, it is not withdraw, but dissolve oneself and the other party lost its balance and bounce back due to the supprise and balancing act to avoid fall.


just some thoughts.

[extrajoseph]

Just to contribute further to the discussions and not to say another method is wrong.

The training method we learned to develop the ideal of "one feather cannot be added" is to do the form and the individual practices as though they are made up of thousands and thousands of zhanzhuang postures, not unlike a series of cartoon frames joined up to make a movie.

So in the end, every part of our body is sensitized to gravity and work like a conduit for gravity, the aim is if we can feel the subtle gravitational force in our movements and be rooted and centered all that time (that is to channel it to the ground without breakage), then the chance of feeling "a feather landing on our body" without loosing the body integrity is much higher, when dealing with a sudden oncoming of your opponent's force.

Your body becomes a conduit and your opponent is not pushing you but the ground itself, like gravity, and you would know how to deal with it because you are already sensitized to the only natural force we can connect to in your constant practice.

[Scott R. Brown]

Everyone has contributed thoughtful comments!

I prefer to not consider any of these as important from a practical perspective, although I understand and enjoy the philosophical perspective most here are coming from.

Inherently balance/imbalance, sensitivity/non-sensitivity, feather/no-feather are all contrivances of the mind.

We create the idea artificially and then attempt to conform ourselves to the artificial idea. This limits our perceptions and actions and we are no longer free to respond to events spontaneously.

If one disregards all contrivances there is no feather or its effects, no sensitivity or lack thereof, no balance to lose.

If one does not "try" to succeed, one cannot lose. If one does not attach to an "I" there is no one to lose anyway.

If there is no feather, one cannot be added and the "contrived idea" of "one feather cannot be added" has no meaning or effect on our actions!

If one conforms to the contrivance of the concept that "one feather cannot be added" they tend to try to attempt to conform their behavior/actions to that "idea" and they become bound by it.

While ideas are meant to transmit information about a specific condition or action, we must not bind ourselves to any idea or concept or that idea/concept becomes a prison we cannot reach beyond!

[kfson]

In the treatise of Tai Chi by Wang Zong Yue.
http://www.whynaturalhealth.co.uk/taichi/index.cfm?s=classics&p=treatise


It said,

One feather cannot be added.


What is One feather cannot be added means? How is that apply to practicing and Applying TaiChi?

One feather can not be added implies the concept of capacity. This means that some number of feathers have been added and there is no more capacity. This doesn't seem to fit in the concept of the paragraph or the context.

I checked my library and found this book:
THE DAO OF TAIJIQUAN- WAY OF REJUVINATION
by Jou, Tsung Hwa

He translates the concept:
"The entire body is so light that a feather can be felt and so pliable that a fly can not rest without setting it into motion."

(Chapter 4, page 179)

[Hendrik]

Great sharing and contributing.

IMHO, this too I have gone through many many years of practice and it is still not the one feather cannot add because one feather cannot add is about handling. training to do the form as thought they are made up of thousands and thousands of zhanzhuang postures doesnt say anything or do anything about feather.

This then also become a greatest myth or misleading in CMA today. Go to such as the WCK forum and you will see lots and lots of people taking doing things slowly means internal art. Well, this is totally screw up but the general believe it so much that it becomes a taboo to speak against it. Well, one can do those slow and made up of thousands and thousands ZhanZhuang stuffs but is it the real thing? look at the world see what is the evidence.





Just to contribute further to the discussions and not to say another method is wrong.

The training method we learned to develop the ideal of "one feather cannot be added" is to do the form and the individual practices as though they are made up of thousands and thousands of zhanzhuang postures, not unlike a series of cartoon frames joined up to make a movie.

So in the end, every part of our body is sensitized to gravity and work like a conduit for gravity, the aim is if we can feel the subtle gravitational force in our movements and be rooted and centered all that time (that is to channel it to the ground without breakage), then the chance of feeling "a feather landing on our body" without loosing the body integrity is much higher, when dealing with a sudden oncoming of your opponent's force.

Your body becomes a conduit and your opponent is not pushing you but the ground itself, like gravity, and you would know how to deal with it because you are already sensitized to the only natural force we can connect to in your constant practice.

[Hendrik]

IMHO,



"The entire body is so light that a feather can be felt and so pliable that a fly can not rest without setting it into motion."


excellent idea. however it is similar to somedays we will levitate. and have the person who translate this levitate yet?

[Hendrik]

IMHO,

one could think as much as one likes. still that doesnt say anything on

One feather cannot added.





Everyone has contributed thoughtful comments!

I prefer to not consider any of these as important from a practical perspective, although I understand and enjoy the philosophical perspective most here are coming from.

Inherently balance/imbalance, sensitivity/non-sensitivity, feather/no-feather are all contrivances of the mind.

We create the idea artificially and then attempt to conform ourselves to the artificial idea. This limits our perceptions and actions and we are no longer free to respond to events spontaneously.

If one disregards all contrivances there is no feather or its effects, no sensitivity or lack thereof, no balance to lose.

If one does not "try" to succeed, one cannot lose. If one does not attach to an "I" there is no one to lose anyway.

If there is no feather, one cannot be added and the "contrived idea" of "one feather cannot be added" has no meaning or effect on our actions!

If one conforms to the contrivance of the concept that "one feather cannot be added" they tend to try to attempt to conform their behavior/actions to that "idea" and they become bound by it.

While ideas are meant to transmit information about a specific condition or action, we must not bind ourselves to any idea or concept or that idea/concept becomes a prison we cannot reach beyond!

[Hendrik]

One feather cannot be added needs a way of training and handling. without that the idea is a good idea but just an idea which cannot turn into reality.

when there are just ideas and not working. it is similar to staring and sharing the ideas and ideas of how we think and how nice it will be somedays when we are levitate but that somedays could never come.

[bawang]

it means u r light on ur feet and very fast
run with weight vest and lift weights for internal power

[Scott R. Brown]

IMHO,

one could think as much as one likes. still that doesnt say anything on

One feather cannot added.

That is all any of this is Hendrik, what people think about "one feather cannot be added".

The fact you do not "think" it says anything only means you do not understand as much as you "think" you do!

[kfson]

it means u r light on ur feet and very fast
run with weight vest and lift weights for internal power

So that's how someone becomes light in his loafers.

[charlyws]

you can find it in TaijiQuan Lun by Wong ZongYue.

一羽不能加, 蠅虫不能落.
(one single feather cannot be added, Fly can not alight)


this is correlated with contact point. Means that when someone has a contact point with you. you must let go of him or throw him away, so there is no pressure from the opponent that make you collapse.

the analogy is like this (using chinese scale ==> you can see it in chinese traditional medicine store)

"If there are 10 pounds who come, throw away those 10 pounds before she alighted to the scales, if there was 100 pounds which came, throw away before is also perched on the scales, then what happens is that scales are always in a state of balance, because no one could perch so that the scales remain in state 0. "

[charlyws]

I truly don't believe it makes any sense. It's so difficult to achieve this kind of extream situation that the waight of one feather can make any difference.


It is make sense, if we practicing it in correct way. The idea is only to know our correct posture. when there is a contact point our commonly posture will be change and goes to collapse or become not stable or not solid anymore.

so, th classic means that when there is contacted with someone, we just throw it away or in others words, we only correct ourself posture to original place.

[Hendrik]

It is make sense, if we practicing it in correct way. The idea is only to know our correct posture. when there is a contact point our commonly posture will be change and goes to collapse or become not stable or not solid anymore.

so, th classic means that when there is contacted with someone, we just throw it away or in others words, we only correct ourself posture to original place.


IMHO,

Ok, so how to practicing it in the correct way to be able to attain the state of One feather cannot be added?

Knowing correct posture, when there is a contact point ...just doesnt do it. cant infact bring one to that state.

At high speed the mind is almost useless not to mention if it needs to taking care of correct posture and contact point and points......etc. the mind is useless and there are so many things needs to be processed. that is a dead trap.

Those stuffs just dont work. Eventhought is sound logical.

As an example, try to bend one's toes and strech one's thump and control one's breathing in the same time will get one stuck. The mind cant handle these well, try it.

[charlyws]

first :

Your correct zhanzhuang must be developed (it takes years), then baduanjing etc..

second:
you must develop external structures (sorry cannot say which parts because it is in my secret lineage).

after the basic foundation is complete, you only develop how to move and how to react. and the body automatically move on.

if you try to think one by one without proper practice the answer is you only wasting your time to know whats goin on, how to do this, to do that.

not many things to think. it's only natural just like you walking. no need to think how to move the leg, how to lift up the feet before it take one step ,etc.

it's natural and very easy . ONLY IF you have done the proper one.

Why because in practicing we try to develop our body and mind. when our body and mind become one , it is like when we walk, we laugh, we speak. (we dont need to think how we move our tounge, our teeth, etc)

it's not a dead trap. and it is possible. Taiji is create based on this.

and why must contact point? because Taiji is create only for self Defence not to attacking.

[charlyws]

oo sorry newbie just want to share my experienced. I'm not good enough and still learning too. what i share is based on my experienced with my sifu.

and sorry to say if there are certyain topic that i couldnt share because it will be direct to my internal training. :)

[Skip J.]

more cross-cultural exchange going on here.... I guess english is the middle ground?????

[charlyws]

more cross-cultural exchange going on here.... I guess english is the middle ground?????

:D sorry for my bad english. i'm not from englad or US. so i'm not good in english. :D

[Skip J.]

:D sorry for my bad english. i'm not from englad or US. so i'm not good in english. :D

Don't be sorry here!!!!! It's a common thread whenever hendrik posts, so there's nothing new under this sun!!!!

Quite a few folks get caught up in the english syntax and a lot of discussions happen because of use of certain words....

Of course, hendrik mite be from here and is just runnin' us up a tree, but it doesn't look like it..... I personally enjoy discussions with hendrik myself.... I'm kinda weird that way...

me... I'm a full-blown beginner... the idea I could aspire to "one feather" sometime in my lifetime is fairly intriguing tho....

[dirtyrat]

if one can do the one feather cannot add, then one can make the opponent think it is a wall but found out it is a piece of silk at contact, there the opponent will react to throw him/herself backward with all cost in order to keep the balance. and one uses no force at all, in fact, one dissolve one's force away at the instant to let the opponent has no pivot to nail.
This is the state of Hua Jin or dissolve the incoming jin. it is not resist, it is not withdraw, but dissolve oneself and the other party lost its balance and bounce back due to the supprise and balancing act to avoid fall.



IMHO,

Ok, so how to practicing it in the correct way to be able to attain the state of One feather cannot be added?

Knowing correct posture, when there is a contact point ...just doesnt do it. cant infact bring one to that state.

At high speed the mind is almost useless not to mention if it needs to taking care of correct posture and contact point and points......etc. the mind is useless and there are so many things needs to be processed. that is a dead trap.

Those stuffs just dont work. Eventhought is sound logical.



My second taijiquan instructor could do these things you talked about.

Its not as hard as you may think. You just need to "let go." If your instructor has the touch, then all that's needed is to put in the time and "touch hands" with him. In fact, that's my reason for not studying with him anymore (I thought he's holding back). Most of the time he just wants to focus on practicing the form. I wanted to do more push hands. The push hands he taught was the standard single and double hand push hands along with a freestlye method that kind of looks like greco-roman wrestling.

He also likes to use some psychology and get into his opponents head.

I never got as good as he is, but enough to give him a harder time.

[charlyws]

hehe okay than. hope you could understand what i wrote :D


me too, i'm also a beginner. :)

hope don't mind if i share my opininon.

[Skip J.]

hehe okay than. hope you could understand what i wrote :D


me too, i'm also a beginner. :)

hope don't mind if i share my opininon.
welcome on board!!!!

[extrajoseph]

Great sharing and contributing.
IMHO, this too I have gone through many many years of practice and it is still not the one feather cannot add because one feather cannot add is about handling. training to do the form as thought they are made up of thousands and thousands of zhanzhuang postures doesnt say anything or do anything about feather.


Is it possible then to show us a video of someone doing the training correctly according to your experience?

[Hendrik]

Is it possible then to show us a video of someone doing the training correctly according to your experience?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGBfmEocCoM

[extrajoseph]

After all these great words, you bring out Cheng Man-Ching. 井底蛙望天!

[Hendrik]

After all these great words, you bring out Cheng Man-Ching. 井底蛙望天!

what's wrong with Cheng Man-Ching?

also 井底蛙望天! it is for the purpose of insulting?

[Scott R. Brown]

IMHO,

Ok, so how to practicing it in the correct way to be able to attain the state of One feather cannot be added?

Knowing correct posture, when there is a contact point ...just doesnt do it. cant infact bring one to that state.

You practice by not worrying about it Hendrik. If one is practicing in order to understand, ”one feather cannot be added”, they are wasting mental energy and not focusing properly upon their training. The condition of, ”one feather cannot be added”, occurs naturally with years of proper training and patience. If you seek it, you will not find it. It occurs of itself in the fullness of time!

Knowing the correct posture does do it and it does bring one to “that state”! It is the first step in a process of learning. You should know that if you know anything at all and are not trying to show off your ignorance! Learning is a process of steps and knowing the correct posture is just the first step of that learning. Once one becomes advanced they do not concern themselves with posture because posture occurs “of itself” naturally which frees the mind. Prior to the advanced level one’s mind is preoccupied with the posture, just as you are preoccupied with the principle, “”one feather cannot be added”. Once one is neither preoccupied with principle nor posture, it will occur “of itself”.


At high speed the mind is almost useless not to mention if it needs to taking care of correct posture and contact point and points......etc. the mind is useless and there are so many things needs to be processed. that is a dead trap.

Those stuffs just dont work. Eventhought is sound logical.

You apparently don’t understand much about training or teaching. It is only a dead trap if one is preoccupied. It is the nature of beginners to be preoccupied. One must LEARN not to be preoccupied over time, but it is appropriate for beginners to be so. Once actions are internalized, they occur naturally, but this is the advanced stage.

Why would you try to rob a beginner of his natural stage of learning?


As an example, try to bend one's toes and strech one's thump and control one's breathing in the same time will get one stuck. The mind cant handle these well, try it.

This is totally ridiculous! You mean YOU can’t do it! If your mind gets stuck when performing three simple actions you have no business trying to teach others what you do not understand.


oo sorry newbie just want to share my experienced. I'm not good enough and still learning too. what i share is based on my experienced with my sifu.

and sorry to say if there are certyain topic that i couldnt share because it will be direct to my internal training. :)

You are doing fine charlyws. Your explanation was very good and contributed a new and interesting view on the topic.

Don’t be too concerned with Hendrik. He does this all the time….first he will pose a question, then he will wait for others to say what they think, then he will criticize everyone’s posts implying only he knows the truth of the matter, but in truth he makes a fool of himself.

Then after a time he will start a new thread and do the same thing again.


... the idea I could aspire to "one feather" sometime in my lifetime is fairly intriguing tho....

Just train seriously and it will happen on its own eventually!

[Scott R. Brown]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGBfmEocCoM

Please explain how an old man doing a form demonstrates your point of "one feather cannot be added"!

[dirtyrat]

Please explain how an old man doing a form demonstrates your point of "one feather cannot be added"!

He can't! ;)

[Scott R. Brown]

He can't! ;)

Of course he can't....he can't explain anything....all he can do is criticize others without offering any constructive comments.

But I like to ask anyway! ;):)

[YouKnowWho]

Please explain how an old man doing a form demonstrates your point of "one feather cannot be added"!
It's so trivial. Anybody with 20 IQ should be able to figure this out. :D

I'm so rich that if I just deposit 1 cent more into my bank account, my account will explore.

[Scott R. Brown]

It's so trivial. Anybody with 20 IQ should be able to figure this out. :D

LOL!!! That's the problem, only fools have the imagination to create such a ludicrous fantasy out of their robotic mind spinning rainbow dreams and then actually believe their fantasy accurately represents reality!:)

[charlyws]

in taijiquan lun before one single feather....

there is 進 之則愈長, 退之則愈促. ( Forward even longer, withdrew even more cornered.)



that point is also related for One Single Feather Cannot be added,.....


anyone has hear about this?

[charlyws]

what i learn in Taiji is we must try to "listen" and to "undertand" our self and our body.This what we called "center"

not try to think how opponent move, just think how is "myself"

Learning "center" in Taiji is very important. This is the basic foundation. if someone lost basic then he/she will lost his/her taiji.

[Hendrik]

what i learn in Taiji is we must try to "listen" and to "undertand" our self and our body.This what we called "center"

not try to think how opponent move, just think how is "myself"

Learning "center" in Taiji is very important. This is the basic foundation. if someone lost basic then he/she will lost his/her taiji.



Great point.

If one think of a certain physical point as the center or root. then one gives the opponent the nailing point for him to applied his force.

[kung fu fighter]

You practice by not worrying about it Hendrik. If one is practicing in order to understand, ”one feather cannot be added”, they are wasting mental energy and not focusing properly upon their training. The condition of, ”one feather cannot be added”, occurs naturally with years of proper training and patience. If you seek it, you will not find it. It occurs of itself in the fullness of time!

Knowing the correct posture does do it and it does bring one to “that state”! It is the first step in a process of learning. You should know that if you know anything at all and are not trying to show off your ignorance! Learning is a process of steps and knowing the correct posture is just the first step of that learning. Once one becomes advanced they do not concern themselves with posture because posture occurs “of itself” naturally which frees the mind. Prior to the advanced level one’s mind is preoccupied with the posture, just as you are preoccupied with the principle, “”one feather cannot be added”. Once one is neither preoccupied with principle nor posture, it will occur “of itself”.



You apparently don’t understand much about training or teaching. It is only a dead trap if one is preoccupied. It is the nature of beginners to be preoccupied. One must LEARN not to be preoccupied over time, but it is appropriate for beginners to be so. Once actions are internalized, they occur naturally, but this is the advanced stage.

Why would you try to rob a beginner of his natural stage of learning?



This is totally ridiculous! You mean YOU can’t do it! If your mind gets stuck when performing three simple actions you have no business trying to teach others what you do not understand.



You are doing fine charlyws. Your explanation was very good and contributed a new and interesting view on the topic.

Don’t be too concerned with Hendrik. He does this all the time….first he will pose a question, then he will wait for others to say what they think, then he will criticize everyone’s posts implying only he knows the truth of the matter, but in truth he makes a fool of himself.

Then after a time he will start a new thread and do the same thing again.



Just train seriously and it will happen on its own eventually!


I completely agree

[YouKnowWho]

not try to think how opponent move, just think how is "myself"

Learning "center" in Taiji is very important. This is the basic foundation. if someone lost basic then he/she will lost his/her taiji.
MA is just like sex, it's 2 persons art. It cannot be viewed "solo". Many people trained Fajin into the thin air all their life and never intend to train Fajin into a human body.

There are 5 elements in combat, there are:

- Timing
- Opportunity
- Angle
- Force
- Balance

Timing, opportunity, and angle will make no sense if there is no reference to your opponent. Even the force will need to be delieved onto your opponent's body. Balance also has to do with your opponent's body weight when you throw him.


You practice by not worrying about it...
This concept is important. If you think that you have, you truly don't have it. The power that you think is not your true power. The speed that you think is not your true speed. When you response to your opponent without the luxury of thinking, whatever come out of your body at that moment will be the truly you.

If you have center, you don't need to think about it, it will be there. If you don't have center, even if you think about it, it still not going to help you.

[Hendrik]

This concept is important. If you think that you have, you truly don't have it. The power that you think is not your true power. The speed that you think is not your true speed. When you response to your opponent without the luxury of thinking, whatever come out of your body at that moment will be the truly you.

If you have center, you don't need to think about it, it will be there. If you don't have center, even if you think about it, it still not going to help you.



Yup. that's true.

[SPJ]

In the treatise of Tai Chi by Wang Zong Yue.
http://www.whynaturalhealth.co.uk/taichi/index.cfm?s=classics&p=treatise


It said,

One feather cannot be added.


What is One feather cannot be added means? How is that apply to practicing and Applying TaiChi?

it means to use just enough force in your move.

an extra ounce more of weight or force will be too much.

so even the weight of a feather is added, we will over do it.

so just right, not too much and not too little--

---

[Hendrik]

it means to use just enough force in your move.

an extra ounce more of weight or force will be too much.

so even the weight of a feather is added, we will over do it.

so just right, not too much and not too little--

---

Great Great answer.

you know the "music"

How long have you pratice taiji? and who you learn from if I may ask.


A song for you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJ1f7auNrBw

人从容
剑出手自然也就从容
刺向天地之间的那一点红

[Hendrik]

If you could answer like SPJ I salute you.

nice try, next time.




You practice by not worrying about it Hendrik. If one is practicing in order to understand, ”one feather cannot be added”, they are wasting mental energy and not focusing properly upon their training. The condition of, ”one feather cannot be added”, occurs naturally with years of proper training and patience. If you seek it, you will not find it. It occurs of itself in the fullness of time!

Knowing the correct posture does do it and it does bring one to “that state”! It is the first step in a process of learning. You should know that if you know anything at all and are not trying to show off your ignorance! Learning is a process of steps and knowing the correct posture is just the first step of that learning. Once one becomes advanced they do not concern themselves with posture because posture occurs “of itself” naturally which frees the mind. Prior to the advanced level one’s mind is preoccupied with the posture, just as you are preoccupied with the principle, “”one feather cannot be added”. Once one is neither preoccupied with principle nor posture, it will occur “of itself”.



You apparently don’t understand much about training or teaching. It is only a dead trap if one is preoccupied. It is the nature of beginners to be preoccupied. One must LEARN not to be preoccupied over time, but it is appropriate for beginners to be so. Once actions are internalized, they occur naturally, but this is the advanced stage.

Why would you try to rob a beginner of his natural stage of learning?



This is totally ridiculous! You mean YOU can’t do it! If your mind gets stuck when performing three simple actions you have no business trying to teach others what you do not understand.



You are doing fine charlyws. Your explanation was very good and contributed a new and interesting view on the topic.

Don’t be too concerned with Hendrik. He does this all the time….first he will pose a question, then he will wait for others to say what they think, then he will criticize everyone’s posts implying only he knows the truth of the matter, but in truth he makes a fool of himself.

Then after a time he will start a new thread and do the same thing again.



Just train seriously and it will happen on its own eventually!

[charlyws]

MA is just like sex, it's 2 persons art. It cannot be viewed "solo". Many people trained Fajin into the thin air all their life and never intend to train Fajin into a human body.

There are 5 elements in combat, there are:

- Timing
- Opportunity
- Angle
- Force
- Balance

Timing, opportunity, and angle will make no sense if there is no reference to your opponent. Even the force will need to be delieved onto your opponent's body. Balance also has to do with your opponent's body weight when you throw him.




From my point, it can be viewed in "solo". Taiji basic principle is to know how our self. Because Taiji is truly self defense, means that there is no attacking move at first.

I learnt just only to correct my center. when the opponents come i just switch the center to be correct posture. so it means that i only think my self even when the enemy came. not try to figure how to block it etc.. The mind should not be going outside , it should be stay still in inside.


So When taiji must face another taiji, there will be no fight (if both of them truly undsertand what taiji is). because the will not to attack each others.










If you think that you have, you truly don't have it. The power that you think is not your true power. The speed that you think is not your true speed. When you response to your opponent without the luxury of thinking, whatever come out of your body at that moment will be the truly you.

If you have center, you don't need to think about it, it will be there. If you don't have center, even if you think about it, it still not going to help you.

Yes, agree with that.




just opinion from newbie :D

[charlyws]

it means to use just enough force in your move.

an extra ounce more of weight or force will be too much.

so even the weight of a feather is added, we will over do it.

so just right, not too much and not too little--

---

your quote should be this one (not in the single feather)

察四兩撥千斤之句, 顯非力胜
remember the sentences "4 tail deflect 1000 pounds", obviously this is not achieved with rough energy.



and it continues with..

觀 耄耋能御眾之形, 快何能為.
Seeing an very old man face a group of people, there is no way using speed


立如平 准, 活似車輪,
stand like a scale, move like a wheel

[Hendrik]

your quote should be this one (not in the single feather)

察四兩撥千斤之句, 顯非力胜
remember the sentences "4 tail deflect 1000 pounds", obviously this is not achieved with rough energy.



and it continues with..

觀 耄耋能御眾之形, 快何能為.
Seeing an very old man face a group of people, there is no way using speed


立如平 准, 活似車輪,
stand like a scale, move like a wheel


These concept is great. let's not talk only about abstract and ideas.

what is the mechanics to do it? what is rough energy? and how is there is no way using speed?

care to share?

[charlyws]

as long as not in my internal recipe is okay :D

what is the mechanics to do it?
you must really understand the first principle. It's really difficult if you want to detail how to move one by one. becase it depends on situation and depends on how energy came from the opponents.

at least i can say, if your teacher taught you zhan zhuang and etc.. my suggest you must learn that first until your body is ready to do some external training.

sorry i cannot give the detail.


what is rough energy?
it's something that only use muscle force and has a lot of intent to take down/hit /kick the enemy.

it's like when our car is not moving the engine is dead( i don't know the english :( ), and we want to pushed it. that;s similar like rough energy. we don't care how our posture like, we bend away our leg just to try to make the car move forward, we used a lot of energy.

that's what i called rough energy. or like a boxer try to hit someone with anger or fury, but he didn't consider on his posture. if the punch is not hit the target his body will going to collapse.

that's what i called rough energy.

so consider to that boxer example. if taiji only care of "center", it would be easy only using a very little energy to push him away on his collapse condition.

it's only example. there are more condition when taiji person is not going to evade or block the opponent force, but they only need to change the direction on their center so the opponent will has an unstable posture.


and how is there is no way using speed?

My answer is : AWARENESS .

Like i said before we must keep our mind inside not outside. When you have reach the awareness you will be notice how easy it is.

When you ask how to do it?
i will answer try from zhan zhuang first. because it develop our awareness too

Note: i'm not in that state yet. i'm still training too

[Scott R. Brown]

If you could answer like SPJ I salute you.

nice try, next time.

Nice try at condescension there Hendrik!

Your question, Hendrik, was never asked with the intent to engage others in an open and interesting discussion, but to inflate your own robotic rainbow dream image of yourself!

You asked your question, as you always do, with the implication you are the parent educating your children. Your quote here does nothing but demonstrate my point.

Just about every contribution here has been a variation of the same theme. They all represent a different perspective of the same idea and are a good attempt at making sense of your aphorism.

Here is the problem with any quote of this type:

An instructor has trained for many many years. A student asks him a question about his experience. The instructor replies, "It is like when one feather cannot be added!" This reply, which is unnecessarily cryptic by the way, describes an experience the instructor has had and is an interpretation by HIM of HIS experience with HIS training, that is all. It is not profound or special in anyway. It is no different than a person describing the taste of an orange or what happiness feels like to another person. These descriptions are only ONE way to describe a state of being and the description is NOT the thing.

This aphoristic description, and others like it, tend to lead naive students, and blind followers like yourself, to seek after the experience of the of the quote, which is nothing but a "rainbow dream fantasy", rather than just train and learn directly for themselves.

Because of aphorisms like this, students tend to try to conform their own personal experience to that of the authority's description. They use the quote as a fixed measure of their accomplishment and this traps them into the false experience of another. This does not mean the original experience of the instructor was a false experience, but that his description of the experience is a false representation of reality; it is a shadow representation. This is true of ALL descriptions, the description is NOT the thing itself and students confuse the description with the reality thinking the conformation of their own experience to the false reality is more important than having THEIR OWN experience!

They think, "If I don't feel light as a feather, if I don't perform or feel as the aphorism describes, I am not THERE yet." They think they are "supposed" have this feeling or they are not proficient enough in their skill. This is too bad, because it binds the student to another person's experience and colors their own experience with a false representation of reality. As long as the student attempts to conform their experience to that of another's they will not understand fully for themselves.

Any description is nothing more than a finger pointing the way. It is important not to confuse the finger with what it is pointing towards, and not to confuse a "description" of reality with reality itself!

It is also important not to try to conform our own experience to that of another. Our experience is our own as theirs is their own. Descriptions of experiences/reality by others are false/shadow representations, they may help, but they may also hinder us in unsuspected ways!

BTW your highness:

No one here needs your approval. You are not the final word on anything, so get over yourself!

[Hendrik]

I gave up reading your post after a few sentences. lots of word as usual but no content.

basically, this is a typical case for those who is trying very hard to be the expert however has no practical training to back one up. and keep argue why one is an expert eventhough it is already obvious one dont have it.

Safe some energy to train with a true master instead of keep arguing. That benifit you more and also not misleading others on the topic.





Nice try at condescension there Hendrik!

Your question, Hendrik, was never asked with the intent to engage others in an open and interesting discussion, but to inflate your own robotic rainbow dream image of yourself!

You asked your question, as you always do, with the implication you are the parent educating your children. Your quote here does nothing but demonstrate my point.

Just about every contribution here has been a variation of the same theme. They all represent a different perspective of the same idea and are a good attempt at making sense of your aphorism.

Here is the problem with any quote of this type:

An instructor has trained for many many years. A student asks him a question about his experience. The instructor replies, "It is like when one feather cannot be added!" This reply, which is unnecessarily cryptic by the way, describes an experience the instructor has had and is an interpretation by HIM of HIS experience with HIS training, that is all. It is not profound or special in anyway. It is no different than a person describing the taste of an orange or what happiness feels like to another person. These descriptions are only ONE way to describe a state of being and the description is NOT the thing.

This aphoristic description, and others like it, tend to lead naive students, and blind followers like yourself, to seek after the experience of the of the quote, which is nothing but a "rainbow dream fantasy", rather than just train and learn directly for themselves.

Because of aphorisms like this, students tend to try to conform their own personal experience to that of the authority's description. They use the quote as a fixed measure of their accomplishment and this traps them into the false experience of another. This does not mean the original experience of the instructor was a false experience, but that his description of the experience is a false representation of reality; it is a shadow representation. This is true of ALL descriptions, the description is NOT the thing itself and students confuse the description with the reality thinking the conformation of their own experience to the false reality is more important than having THEIR OWN experience!

They think, "If I don't feel light as a feather, if I don't perform or feel as the aphorism describes, I am not THERE yet." They think they are "supposed" have this feeling or they are not proficient enough in their skill. This is too bad, because it binds the student to another person's experience and colors their own experience with a false representation of reality. As long as the student attempts to conform their experience to that of another's they will not understand fully for themselves.

Any description is nothing more than a finger pointing the way. It is important not to confuse the finger with what it is pointing towards, and not to confuse a "description" of reality with reality itself!

It is also important not to try to conform our own experience to that of another. Our experience is our own as theirs is their own. Descriptions of experiences/reality by others are false/shadow representations, they may help, but they may also hinder us in unsuspected ways!

BTW your highness:

No one here needs your approval. You are not the final word on anything, so get over yourself!

[Hendrik]

and how is there is no way using speed?

My answer is : AWARENESS .

Like i said before we must keep our mind inside not outside. When you have reach the awareness you will be notice how easy it is.

When you ask how to do it?
i will answer try from zhan zhuang first. because it develop our awareness too

Note: i'm not in that state yet. i'm still training too


Tell me after you get to into that state, as I know from those who has been there, that AWARENESS path is oversimplified and never works.


I take you read chinese. The following is for you and all who read chinese. also if some one volumteer to translate it to English that will be wonderfull.


This is from 王骧陆居士全集:


乃后人硬派在精气神功夫上，以守窍守丹田为执一之唯一法门、而误尽苍生矣。
此又误解内静两字，而其弊有由来也。

今略论之。古人内静之功，守之弥笃。但静坐者，每反觉心之纷乱。此本是静之初步，如水之能见底者，其上清也 。彼以心之纷乱无安著处，遂无形流于压制，不知心念只有随觉随去不理之一法一理，或思有以制止之，皆心上加 心，徒增纷乱。且此守一功夫，必灵机活泼者，庶无呆守死执之病。

再加心有静内之见，于是存于肉体之内，久久静极，自见血气流转上下升沉，此时甚觉舒适，且可除病长生，而练 精化气，练气化神之法以起，功夫深入，自可聚精成形，阳神自顶门而出，然而摄心内定之功，外敬之法，忘之久 矣，转以精气神为道，为心，为无上妙法，彼心无把持，阳神远出，逢得小通，不知一遇幻境，心便惑荡或受惊吓 ，即不能回入躯壳而成颠狂，此流弊何可胜道。

再加筑基不能自然，一涉贪得，又成阻阂，以至腹胀而死。盖心未动前之精，是为真精，一动即为浊精。心著于丹 田，气即随之，浊精固于一处，不化则胀结，不善化则漏精而死。此全是肉体上危险功夫，究于道何关，此可痛也 。然原其初心，未始不想内静求定，徒以贪得长生不死，或得小神通，误入歧途



There are lots of information not available to the west yet. and those are critical.....

[Scott R. Brown]

I gave up reading your post after a few sentences. lots of word as usual but no content.

basically, this is a typical case for those who is trying very hard to be the expert however has no practical training to back one up. and keep argue why one is an expert eventhough it is already obvious one dont have it.

Same thing I said to you only I said it much better and with more meaningful examples and explanations. You know...without all your cryptic mumbo jumbo crap!

Never the less a wise person would have read it before presuming to criticize rather than continuing their foolishness! But you are trapped by your ego and cannot see beyond your own simple-mindedness.


Safe some energy to train with a true master instead of keep arguing. That benifit you more and also not misleading others on the topic.

You might try taking your own advice first before giving it to others, but then that is what I have to say to you with nearly every post, but you are too stupid and too busy pretending to be a master to pay attention. Your master must have been very amused by your over inflated ego and sense of self-importance!

But don't worry....I'll always be here to help keep you from hiding from yourself!

Pretending to be something you are not is only fooling yourself with your own robotic rainbow fantasy dream, it fools no one else.

You are welcome for repeatedly helping you face the truth about yourself. :)

[Scott R. Brown]

Tell me after you get to into that state, as I know from those who has been there, that AWARENESS path is oversimplified and never works.

Why do you insist on judging the experiences of others who you know nothing about and about topics you know nothing about?

Since you ONLY know from "those who have been there" but have NOT been there yourself, you don't know anything about it at all. Better, then, to keep your opinions to yourself, since you admit no knowledge about if from the first.

All your comments are just your robotic rainbow dream fantasy speculating about what you know nothing about!


There are lots of information not available to the west yet. and those are critical.....

No.....they are not!

[charlyws]

Hendrik,

from your point, i believe that you don't believe it. because from what you typed, you have no experienced on facing a person who has capable to do that.

why i am so sure about Awareness ? because i have a lot experienced on facing that condition when i'm training with my Shifu.


it's okay you don't believe it. i only want to give different side of view from commonly most people think.

i'm not pushed you to believed it. perhaps on entire life you don't believe it. because you always not believed what the origin (classic) said. you only believed based what you have gain. not others gain.

it's like : How do you say that taste of sugar is so sweet, even you have not try the sugar?


try to consult with your master. if he can't answer or he can't show it there are only 2 conditions:
1. he don't get it
2. he doesn't want to show it first until you have gain your skill

[Hendrik]

IMHO, What I said if you read my post is your claim of Awareness is over simplified and can never work.

If you think awareness can do it as you believe or you state, share with us what is awareness and how is it cultivate and how is it influence the physical? at what state of awareness one can do it?



See, Shifu and experience....etc are relative. and there is nothing to do with believe it or not. It is the process. and thus, getting into personal of "you have no experienced on facing a person who has capable to do that." just mean you like to short cut and make others accept your point with brute force. that is not going anywhere because it doesnt mean anything.

Why do I give credit to SPJ? because he knows what is it and how to train it.






Hendrik,

from your point, i believe that you don't believe it. because from what you typed, you have no experienced on facing a person who has capable to do that.

why i am so sure about Awareness ? because i have a lot experienced on facing that condition when i'm training with my Shifu.


it's okay you don't believe it. i only want to give different side of view from commonly most people think.

i'm not pushed you to believed it. perhaps on entire life you don't believe it. because you always not believed what the origin (classic) said. you only believed based what you have gain. not others gain.

it's like : How do you say that taste of sugar is so sweet, even you have not try the sugar?


try to consult with your master. if he can't answer or he can't show it there are only 2 conditions:
1. he don't get it
2. he doesn't want to show it first until you have gain your skill

[charlyws]

Maybe it's useful for you hendrik:

On training, pls don't have a lot expectations only on result. Beside only to focus on the result why you don't enjoy about the progress?

If you have a lot expectation on result, and you can't gain it. You'll be disappointed.
You'll stuck on that condition or even worse you will hate and burn to anger about what you have done.

So try to being happiness with your training. not only seek the result. The result is a bonus. but what you have experienced on training is truly the result.

cheers..

[Hendrik]

There is a different between chasing restlessly for result and living in a causal world where one does a certain thing and there will be an effect based on the cause.

I am not talking about chasing restlessly for result but discuss the cause and effect.

Thus, saying , believing in AWARENESS, or dont expect anything....enjoy the progress etc those are off topic.

Can one telling those who are cooking sand to enjoy the progress of cooking and somedays the sand will turn into rice?






Maybe it's useful for you hendrik:

On training, pls don't have a lot expectations only on result. Beside only to focus on the result why you don't enjoy about the progress?

If you have a lot expectation on result, and you can't gain it. You'll be disappointed.
You'll stuck on that condition or even worse you will hate and burn to anger about what you have done.

So try to being happiness with your training. not only seek the result. The result is a bonus. but what you have experienced on training is truly the result.

cheers..

[charlyws]

IMHO, What I said if you read my post is your claim of Awareness is over simplified and can never work.

If you think awareness can do it as you believe or you state, share with us what is awareness and how is it cultivate and how is it influence the physical? at what state of awareness one can do it?



See, Shifu and experience....etc are relative. and there is nothing to do with believe it or not. It is the process. and thus, getting into personal of "you have no experienced on facing a person who has capable to do that." just mean you like to short cut and make others accept your point with brute force. that is not going anywhere because it doesnt mean anything.

Why do I give credit to SPJ? because he knows what is it and how to train it.


How to cultivate awareness is only do the proper training and only proper repetition that will make you on that state.

From basic like zhan zhuang and etc..

Sorry like i said, if the answer is close enough to my internal curriculum i won't answer it.

i can only said, it will open your eyes, it will gain your excellent reaction, it will grow your hearing, and others of senses.


Yes, SPJ is good

[Hendrik]

you dont even have to share how to cultivate awareness, just explain what awareness is according to you and how is it related to the physical....etc.

That is nothing with your internal curriculum, it is about how clear you could define and describe what you mean. and only if one can define and describe clearly what one means one knows it isnt it?






How to cultivate awareness is only do the proper training and only proper repetition that will make you on that state.

From basic like zhan zhuang and etc..

Sorry like i said, if the answer is close enough to my internal curriculum i won't answer it.

i can only said, it will open your eyes, it will gain your excellent reaction, it will grow your hearing, and others of senses.


Yes, SPJ is good

[charlyws]

There is a different between chasing restlessly for result and living in a causal world where one does a certain thing and there will be an effect based on the cause.

I am not talking about chasing restlessly for result but discuss the cause and effect.

Thus, saying , believing in AWARENESS, or dont expect anything....enjoy the progress etc those are off topic.

Can one telling those who are cooking sand to enjoy the progress of cooking and somedays the sand will turn into rice?


yes, you not said that you chasing the result restlessy. but you already describe it by yourself. :)


discuss about cause ==> said ealier have you done your basic and gain "center"?


Can one telling those who are cooking sand to enjoy the progress of cooking and somedays the sand will turn into rice?
Yes, they will suddenly know how to cook, and they will realize what they are targeting is wrong. after that they will do proper cook.

[charlyws]

you dont even have to share how to cultivate awareness, just explain what awareness is according to you and how is it related to the physical....etc.

That is nothing with your internal curriculum, it is about how clear you could define and describe what you mean. and only if one can define and describe clearly what one means one knows it isnt it?

i already said that..

it will open your eyes, it will gain your excellent reaction, it will grow your hearing, and others of senses.

so your reaction will be a lot faster if there is a contact point. this isn't like speed when you punch the punchbag. it's speed on body and mind reaction. because your senses is clearly open, you will know what direction of your opponent's move.


you will saw through in 1 condition on that time.

[Scott R. Brown]

Maybe it's useful for you hendrik:

On training, pls don't have a lot expectations only on result. Beside only to focus on the result why you don't enjoy about the progress?

If you have a lot expectation on result, and you can't gain it. You'll be disappointed.
You'll stuck on that condition or even worse you will hate and burn to anger about what you have done.

So try to being happiness with your training. not only seek the result. The result is a bonus. but what you have experienced on training is truly the result.

cheers..

You have made a very good point here charlyws. Too often the eye is on the goal and not on the method/process. If the method/process is followed with patience and diligence the goal follows naturally, of itself, in the fullness of time.


There is a different between chasing restlessly for result and living in a causal world where one does a certain thing and there will be an effect based on the cause.

No there is no difference Hendrik. Chasing restlessly for a result IS following cause and effect, it is just focusing too much on the EFFECT/result and not allowing the CAUSE/method/process to work in its own time! This is exactly what charlyws said!

The cause IS the training, the EFFECT is "not one feather added"!

Try thinking about what you post before you post it instead of just posting disagreement for disagreement's sake!


I am not talking about chasing restlessly for result but discuss the cause and effect.

Thus, saying , believing in AWARENESS, or dont expect anything....enjoy the progress etc those are off topic.

Once again, THINK before you post! They are exactly ON TOPIC! It is exactly the manner in which one acquires the state of “one feather cannot be added”!

Your “one feather cannot be added” is a result of patient and diligent practice that occurs when one allows the method/process of training to create the result/effect as a natural process instead of pushing for the result before the fullness of time allows it to occur on its own. Charlyws is right on here and you are WAY off your own mark because you are automatically disagreeing before you THINK about what charlyws has said.

Remember, THINK BEFORE YOU POST! And avoid posting disagreement just for disagreement’s sake. You are making yourself look foolish again!


Can one telling those who are cooking sand to enjoy the progress of cooking and somedays the sand will turn into rice?

Charlyws’s response to your comment here was very good! I would add that cooking sand produces glass, and remember, THINK before you post and work a bit more on your metaphors! Try to find one that actually makes your point and not the point you are trying to disagree with.


you dont even have to share how to cultivate awareness, just explain what awareness is according to you and how is it related to the physical....etc.

“If your eye is true and your mind unobstructed, there is nothing you cannot overcome, including a sword attack!!!” - Shoju Ronin to the Master Swordsmen after he defeated them all at once with nothing but a fan and no martial arts training!

When one has proper awareness, that is clear/unobstructed perception/insight into matters at hand, they are able to react spontaneously, without rational interference, which results in the ability to defeat even skilled martial artists.

Awareness is developed in a number of ways. The primary method is to avoid rational/intellectual interference in perception. Reactions occur through perception/reaction rather than through perception/interpretation/reaction.


That is nothing with your internal curriculum, it is about how clear you could define and describe what you mean. and only if one can define and describe clearly what one means one knows it isnt it?

And yet again Henrik YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT!!!!

One may have the ability to perform an action without a knowledge of how to explain how they do it to others. Not everyone has literary skill, this is developed over time and practice as is any skill. Not everyone is educated enough or thoughtful enough to explain concepts and principles adequately to others, but that does not mean they are not able to DO it. Your robotic rainbow fantasy mind has trapped you in your fixed beliefs and continually reveals you to be a beginner pretending to be an expert!

Many people know how to explain actions to others without the ability to actually perform that actions themselves. My favorite example of this is Bela Karoli, the pre-eminent Olympic GIRLS gymnastic coach. He has never performed on ANY of the GIRLS apparatuses and yet he is able to coach MANY GIRLS to MULTIPLE Olympic gold medals AND YET HE CANNOT DO IT HIMSELF AND NEVER HAS!

You really ARE a very sad and foolish little man. You have no idea what you are talking about 99% of the time and make foolish comments about things you know very little about!

[Hendrik]

Since you all love to wear the emperor's new cloth. make my day. feel free.




You have made a very good point here charlyws. Too often the eye is on the goal and not on the method/process. If the method/process is followed with patience and diligence the goal follows naturally, of itself, in the fullness of time.



No there is no difference Hendrik. Chasing restlessly for a result IS following cause and effect, it is just focusing too much on the EFFECT/result and not allowing the CAUSE/method/process to work in its own time! This is exactly what charlyws said!

The cause IS the training, the EFFECT is "not one feather added"!

Try thinking about what you post before you post it instead of just posting disagreement for disagreement's sake!



Once again, THINK before you post! They are exactly ON TOPIC! It is exactly the manner in which one acquires the state of “one feather cannot be added”!

Your “one feather cannot be added” is a result of patient and diligent practice that occurs when one allows the method/process of training to create the result/effect as a natural process instead of pushing for the result before the fullness of time allows it to occur on its own. Charlyws is right on here and you are WAY off your own mark because you are automatically disagreeing before you THINK about what charlyws has said.

Remember, THINK BEFORE YOU POST! And avoid posting disagreement just for disagreement’s sake. You are making yourself look foolish again!



Charlyws’s response to your comment here was very good! I would add that cooking sand produces glass, and remember, THINK before you post and work a bit more on your metaphors! Try to find one that actually makes your point and not the point you are trying to disagree with.



“If your eye is true and your mind unobstructed, there is nothing you cannot overcome, including a sword attack!!!” - Shoju Ronin to the Master Swordsmen after he defeated them all at once with nothing but a fan and no martial arts training!

When one has proper awareness, that is clear/unobstructed perception/insight into matters at hand, they are able to react spontaneously, without rational interference, which results in the ability to defeat even skilled martial artists.

Awareness is developed in a number of ways. The primary method is to avoid rational/intellectual interference in perception. Reactions occur through perception/reaction rather than through perception/interpretation/reaction.



And yet again Henrik YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT!!!!

One may have the ability to perform an action without a knowledge of how to explain how they do it to others. Not everyone has literary skill, this is developed over time and practice as is any skill. Not everyone is educated enough or thoughtful enough to explain concepts and principles adequately to others, but that does not mean they are not able to DO it. Your robotic rainbow fantasy mind has trapped you in your fixed beliefs and continually reveals you to be a beginner pretending to be an expert!

Many people know how to explain actions to others without the ability to actually perform that actions themselves. My favorite example of this is Bela Karoli, the pre-eminent Olympic GIRLS gymnastic coach. He has never performed on ANY of the GIRLS apparatuses and yet he is able to coach MANY GIRLS to MULTIPLE Olympic gold medals AND YET HE CANNOT DO IT HIMSELF AND NEVER HAS!

You really ARE a very sad and foolish little man. You have no idea what you are talking about 99% of the time and make foolish comments about things you know very little about!

[Scott R. Brown]

Since you all love to wear the emperor's new cloth. make my day. feel free.

You have got to be THE most ill informed martial artist I have ever known!

[Hendrik]

You have got to be THE most ill informed martial artist I have ever known!

could you focus on the subject discussion? or you are incapable of handling your run away mind?

[Scott R. Brown]

I have repeatedly hendirk and all you do is reply with condescending and ignorant comments.

You are just too ego-centric and self-indulgent in your robotic rainbow dream fantasy to understand what I have written.

Just about every post of mine here would help one to develop and understand your little Chinese ditty! It doesn't make sense to YOU because you apparently have no sense at all!

If you wish to be treated with more respect then learn to treat others with more respect yourself first. Respect is earned!

[Scott R. Brown]

Since you all love to wear the emperor's new cloth. make my day. feel free.

And since you want to be a smart a@ss tell me how this condescension applies to your "topic at hand"!

You have not adequately addressed even ONE of my comments in any of your responses. How is THAT staying on the "topic at hand"?

You have never responded adequately to any comment I have ever made on any thread because you are unable too! You are locked within your own fantasies about the marital arts, Ch'an, Tao and just about any other topic you comment on!

All you can do is make vague and cryptic remarks that make no sense and condescend to others!

If you want others to stay on topic, then set an example and stay on topic yourself and stop insulting others with your condescending remarks!

Get over yourself!

[charlyws]

thx Scott. To Me Hendrik is like my nephew who already at 2 years old. She always ask what is that, what is this, how to be like that..


He starved about information.


to hendrik, i'm not looking for emperor's cloth. what i wrote just base on my truly experienced. i'm not seek for the rightness, and also i'm not push someone to believe my opinion.

i'm just try to share, perhaps it will be useful.



maybe you can start to share about your knowledge about one single feather cannot be added?

[Scott R. Brown]

thx Scott. To Me Hendrik is like my nephew who already at 2 years old. She always ask what is that, what is this, how to be like that..

Hi charlyws,

Your contributions are appreciated by many of us.

Hendrik is an interesting fellow. He appears to be trapped within his view of the world system and cannot get out of it. He appears to be so bound by his narrow world view that he cannot conceive of any other view being valid.

According to his own comments on other threads he is trapped by the teachings he received from his teacher, who is dead now, and he cannot seem to get beyond that teaching. If it didn't come from his teacher or a teacher approved by himself, it must be foolishness according to his pattern of comments.

He is so sure of his narrow view that he is condescending to others. I like to mess with him in order to try to jar him out of his self imposed prison.

I believe he means well, he is just a bit immature and does not realize he is still a beginner. And not everything he says is completely false either, he is usually almost on the mark, but just off to the side a bit.

It is all training in my mind! I enjoy him for his contributions and his condescension just as I enjoy everyone else for their contributions and unique personalities.

I truly enjoy your contributions and also YouKnowWho's because you both are adding fresh perspectives on topics we have discussed here many times in the past. SPJ has been around for years and he always adds interesting comments as well!

Please continue to share what you can from your own experiences and from your shifu's teachings that you are permitted!:)

[charlyws]

oo Thx Scott :D

Yes, hendrik is interesting fellow. i fell sorry for his teacher. i don't know that.

Hope this sharing will continue :) . so we could gain more knowledge .

Cheers,

Charly

[mawali]

The questions still remain,


What is One feather cannot be added means?
How is that apply to practicing and Applying TaiChi?

A rare quality to attain only because the bar is high enough and few actually reach it!

The below is one of the best concrete examples based on your question and it concerns Wu style taijiquan though it exists in all CMA to one degree or the next.
SOme Shaolin systems have a similar strategy but, as usual, it ends up being fisticuffs!
'Tingjin' (listening energy) is a facet but it is only a small part! You have to know what to do when /after you sense a direction and either set up to throw or use qinna or push away the opponent! My skill is still low but I am aware (I hope) that always possessing the mind of a "student" is good i.e. being open minded, observing, asking questions and researching and the ability to separate the wishing (BS) from what is real and acknowlwdging that chasm!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUmaFgzD2nk

[Hendrik]

Yup. That is what happen in reality.

the following is a great example too

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bf0DNMElas8


it is not just wishing game but how to make it happen since Jin is an application or Yoong, it must be specific.




A rare quality to attain only because the bar is high enough and few actually reach it!

The below is one of the best concrete examples based on your question and it concerns Wu style taijiquan though it exists in all CMA to one degree or the next.
SOme Shaolin systems have a similar strategy but, as usual, it ends up being fisticuffs!
'Tingjin' (listening energy) is a facet but it is only a small part! You have to know what to do when /after you sense a direction and either set up to throw or use qinna or push away the opponent! My skill is still low but I am aware (I hope) that always possessing the mind of a "student" is good i.e. being open minded, observing, asking questions and researching and the ability to separate the wishing (BS) from what is real and acknowlwdging that chasm!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUmaFgzD2nk

[charlyws]

Yup. That is what happen in reality.

the following is a great example too

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bf0DNMElas8


it is not just wishing game but how to make it happen since Jin is an application or Yoong, it must be specific.

that is psychology.. if somebody can hit people from distance he must could hit "things" from distance too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKuXuDCPfds

that video, is possible only if you have gain your truly Qi. it can move things.

But, in that video the student is one early stage. so, the teacher help him using His teacher's Yin Qi which influence the Yang Qi of that student, so the student can move things.

In this video, The level of Yin Qi of that teacher is absolutely high.

[Hendrik]

I presume you are from South east asia likely Singapore.

There is a different between Taiji kung fuand Mau Shan magic.


We are talking Taiji and internal art here instead of Mau Shan magic.


Could you evoke your Zhen Qi at will? Hua Jin and fajin at will, if you have the cultivation then please share.

What is the key elements of evoking Zhen Qi, Hua Jin (dissolve jin), and Fa Ji ( issue jin) at will?

and What is Zhen Qi? What is Yin Qi?


If not then why speculate and trying to become an expert on something you dont know?






that is psychology.. if somebody can hit people from distance he must could hit "things" from distance too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKuXuDCPfds

that video, is possible only if you have gain your truly Qi. it can move things.

But, in that video the student is one early stage. so, the teacher help him using His teacher's Yin Qi which influence the Yang Qi of that student, so the student can move things.

In this video, The level of Yin Qi of that teacher is absolutely high.

[Scott R. Brown]

ICould you evoke your Zhen Qi at will? Hua Jin and fajin at will, if you have the cultivation then please share.

Can you? If so please demonstrate for yourself instead of posting videos of others doing it!


What is the key elements of evoking Zhen Qi, Hua Jin (dissolve jin), and Fa Ji ( issue jin) at will?

and What is Zhen Qi? What is Yin Qi?

You go first and WE will decide if YOU know what you are talking about!


If not then why speculate and trying to become an expert on something you dont know?

Answer this yourself first and we will condescend to your ignorance too!

[charlyws]

I presume you are from South east asia likely Singapore.

There is a different between Taiji and Mau Shan magic.





Could you evoke your Zhen Qi at will? Hua Jin and fajin at will, if you have the cultivation then please share.

What is the key elements of evoking Zhen Qi, Hua Jin (dissolve jin), and Fa Ji ( issue jin) at will?

and What is Zhen Qi? What is Yin Qi?


If not then why speculate and trying to become an expert on something you dont know?

Sorry, you're wrong. I'm not singaporean. I know there is difference between Taiji and Mo Pai.


SOrry, i'm not go into your trap.And i'll not give any detail about "HOW TO".. GOt It??

why don't you ask your sifu. if you don't believe just live on it. As long you don't open the eyes, your knowledge will be stuck at this current level.

So sorry to you, if you only know from fantasy history. To much FAJIN and so on in your head without noticing the important one.


I could only give you this

http://img64.yfrog.com/i/neijingtu.jpg/ try ask you if you feel you know about shen Qi, Yang Qi, Yin Qi, 3 types of Dantien , etc..

[Hendrik]

why get into so much complexity if one really know it?


Just hold one's body in all movement with as much effort as if one extral feather is added or land on one's body the whole body is going to collapse.

That's it, precise and concise.


If one doesnt know this above, forget about Fa Ji. Hua Ji, Shen Ming, Awareness........etc. Those are just talks because one really doesnt have never done any true practice.

[Scott R. Brown]

why get into so much complexity if one really know it?

You mean just like you did with your overly complicated post on Jin on the Taiju Quan Lun thread!

Hypocrisy is the only thing you are good at isn't it? It must be your sifu who teaches you this!


Just hold one's body in all movement with as much effort as if one extral feather is added or land on one's body the whole body is going to collapse.

That's it, precise and concise.

No! It is a stupid analogy! Try again... but I will help you first!

If you "hold" your body "with effort" you are working too hard and thinking too much about it. You do NOT "hold" your body. It is just there empty of intent or tension/stress.

Do NOT try to hold it and do not use any effort at all. Otherwise you are just a beginner and it is okay til you learn from your practice.

If the body collapses or even if it is merely "as if it was going to collapse" this is over reaction from a tense mind and shows you are still a beginner.

One responds spontaneously (which means appropriately and without aforethought) to the lightest touch. It is not even necessary to be touched. If one responds to the intention of the opponent prior to being touched, or even prior to an outward manifestation of intent or movement this is correct sensitivity.

To respond appropriately means in any way that neutralizes the attack. It might mean meeting the force, dissolving the force, redirecting the force or avoiding the force.

If one does not know this above forget about Fa ji, Hua ji Shen Ming, Awareness......etc.

Those are just talks and empty noise of jabbering old men with no proper sifu to teach them uselessly!



If one doesnt know this above, forget about Fa Ji. Hua Ji, Shen Ming, Awareness........etc. Those are just talks because one really doesnt have never done any true practice.

Keep practicing and maybe someday you will understand, but I know you need your sifu to tell you!

[charlyws]

why get into so much complexity if one really know it?


Just hold one's body in all movement with as much effort as if one extral feather is added or land on one's body the whole body is going to collapse.

That's it, precise and concise.


If one doesnt know this above, forget about Fa Ji. Hua Ji, Shen Ming, Awareness........etc. Those are just talks because one really doesnt have never done any true practice.

hmm.. if one doesnt know about the proper basic , forget about fajin, Jin, Shen Ming etc..

[taai gihk yahn]

by now, Hendrick has not only had a feather added, he's been tarred, feathered and run out of town on a rail!

[Scott R. Brown]

by now, Hendrick has not only had a feather added, he's been tarred, feathered and run out of town on a rail!

Ahhhhhhh!! The good old American West of the 1800's!

I miss those days.....when men were men and women were women.........and couldn't vote!!!!!


<did I just say that out loud>:eek: