Wing Chun Instructors Certified Via Seminars and Distance Learning?

[HumbleWCGuy]

I don't want to come off as if no one can become competent by learning WC via seminar or distance learning. However, it is an uphill battle.

I am not completely sure, but it is my understanding that WC permeated North America via seminar and distance learning during the 70's and 80's. Is there any truth to that and has it affected the quality of WC if it did?

[tigershorty]

didn't you just answer your own question?

[Lee Chiang Po]

If a person has a martial mentality he can learn easily. It just might take him a little longer maybe. He would learn even faster if he had a training partner. When I seen Wing Chun for the very first time, It was not well known at all. It was an obscure gung fu fighting system that only a few people had heard of and almost no one knew or understood. Today there are so many different kinds of Wing Chun it just seems endless.
I have read adds by some really well known institutions of martial arts that offer distance training. I guess that is what you are talking about? They provide video of the techniques and moves, you train them, then send them a video of yourself performing them with some skill. They then sell you a colored belt. You can take courses in math, literature, just about everything, and then by testing can see just how well you have learned it. So, why not a martial art? Not everyone trains to be a sport fighter, and even if they did, how many of those that train sport fighting ever make a name for themselves? What really counts is that you train yourself. How well you do it depends on just how strong your will to learn it is.

[wtxs]

I'm the Supreme Grand Master of The Poison Hand Ving Tzun system, I can training you to an Twelve Degree Black Sash Master in just twelve weeks. All you have to do is give me your next new born son, but you have to enroll within the next hour before the offer expires. This is an one time public offering, don't be a loser...call NOWWWW! 1-900-555-5555

[HumbleWCGuy]

I'm the Supreme Grand Master of The Poison Hand Ving Tzun system, I can training you to an Twelve Degree Black Sash Master in just twelve weeks. All you have to do is give me your next new born son, but you have to enroll within the next hour before the offer expires. This is an one time public offering, don't be a loser...call NOWWWW! 1-900-555-5555

We have to give up our first born and pay for the call? That's cold blooded. :D Of course, if it is poison hand...

[Ultimatewingchun]

Touchy question, HumbleWCGuy, but it is an issue that periodically needs to be addressed.

I spent 8 years learning Ving Tsun directly from Moy Yat here in NYC (1975-1983)....and then I became a student of William Cheung in TWC...

and since August, 1983 through to April, 2006 (the last seminar I've attended to date)...during that 23 year period I have fallen into the category of people your thread addresses.

But it has been a very long time (23 years and counting)....and through those years I've spent God-knows-how-many hours with William Cheung at public seminars, semi-private seminars, private lessons, etc.

And so for me, technically it's been long distance training since he lives in Australia and has been coming here to the NYC/New Jersey area two-three times per year - and I've also been to seminars in Boston, Massachusetts and in Boulder, Colorado as well.

And because I never wanted to be awarded a certificate/rank without truly deserving it, I personally made a decision long ago to space out my tests and not try to rush them in any way; ie.- it was 7 years of training before I took my Level 10 Instructor Grade test for Gold Sash (October, 1990).

Took the first test (Butterfly Sword form) towards Master Level (Red Sash) 3 years later in 1993 - and waited 10 years (I kid you not) to take the next test: Butterfly Sword fighting applications
(in 2003)...

even though by then I already knew the material for 2 more tests beyond the test I took in 2003 (Dragon Pole form/Dragon Pole fighting applications)...

and I still haven't even taken those tests yet, and it's now 2010 !!!

I didn't want to just know the material - I've wanted to be very good at the material before testing.

And many of my students have complained through the years that they "should have taken their Gold Sash test by now but haven't," etc...

but my biggest concern was whether or not they could actually fight with the material I've taught them, first-and-foremost.

The same standard I've held myself to.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Vic... You have had plenty of direct training in the art to do what you are doing if you ask me. I only trained with my Sifu for 6 years. It was brutal training to begin with and I took many private lessons.


I am mainly asking because we are seeing a lot of Muay Thai Instructors who are purely ranked by seminar. It has degraded the quality quite a bit IMO. It was my understanding that WC had the same issues in the 70's and 80's.

[Ultimatewingchun]

I believe that there is some truth to what you're saying as regards wing chun in that time frame.

And yeah, have heard stories of late about some short cutting in arts like Muay Thai and BJJ also, amoungst other arts.

[Phil Redmond]

I don't want to come off as if no one can become competent by learning WC via seminar or distance learning. However, it is an uphill battle.

I am not completely sure, but it is my understanding that WC permeated North America via seminar and distance learning during the 70's and 80's. Is there any truth to that and has it affected the quality of WC if it did?
Well in NYC that wasn't the case. There were plenty of WC Sifus living and teaching in NYC. I personally trained with Duncan Leung, Alan Lee, Lee Moy Shan, Moy Yat, Chung Kwok Chow, Henry Leung, Alan Lamb, and a Mainland Sifu who taught at the 5 Tiger school in NY. I was already a Sifu when I met William Cheung in July 1983 at which time I became his student.

[HumbleWCGuy]

I can't say enough that I am not pointing the finger at any single person. I am just wondering if in a general sense if the art as been damaged as with MT, BJJ, and others.

[HumbleWCGuy]

I believe that there is some truth to what you're saying as regards wing chun in that time frame.

And yeah, have heard stories of late about some short cutting in arts like Muay Thai and BJJ also, amoungst other arts.

I think that Muay Thai is in bad shape right now. There are a lot of guys teaching it who may or may not have experience in that type of Kickboxing. Guys just run out and get the certification at a two week camp and shell out for a seminar on an annual basis to diversify the offerings at their schools.

[SAAMAG]

To be fair, there are alot of time intensive courses out there for training. It doesn't mean they're bad, just that the quality would again be dependant on the person who learnt and is now teaching.

Muay Thai, can be taught in it's entirety in a very short period from a technical sense. Hell I can show you all the nuances of Muay Thai in a day but you probably wouldn't retain any of it. But that's the key...is it enough time for the person to to retain it well enough to teach it at even the standard level of quality?

Sometimes yes, sometmes no. But the same can be said of people that learn it over ten years.

[duende]

If the student is truly dedicated, then a long distance learning program can work. Through testing and real skill challenges one can assure proper learning and transferance of core knowledge and necessary physical attributes/conditioning.

However, the student/teacher both have to be committed and see to it that real time on hands on learning is still put in. This often means multiple trips/meetings a year IMO.

Rankings and belts don't mean $hit. It's all in the hands.

One of the hardest things to teach is energy dynamics. Advancing the student from mere shapes to expressing key body mechanics is the biggest hurdle.

Also, without constant check-ups... It's easy for the student to go off on their own path which can obviously have a negative efffects at times.

Videos and such can teach basic shapes, but beyond that are extremely limited IMO.

Long distance or local... The student has to put the time in to truly learn.

[t_niehoff]

Martial arts are no different than any other sport or athletic activity.

All it comes down to is can you learn the fundamentals (which shouldn't take very long) and then can you practice using those fundamentals.

Coaching is something else entirely.

There are people who have become very, very good grapplers and world class fighters using distance training.

[wtxs]

We have to give up our first born and pay for the call? That's cold blooded. :D Of course, if it is poison hand...

If you can also sign up 5 of your friends, I'll refund the cost of your call....:p

[LoneTiger108]

I don't want to come off as if no one can become competent by learning WC via seminar or distance learning. However, it is an uphill battle.

I am not completely sure, but it is my understanding that WC permeated North America via seminar and distance learning during the 70's and 80's. Is there any truth to that and has it affected the quality of WC if it did?

I personally couldn't comment on how Wing Chun migrated into Canada but I've always thought of Seminar training as a top-up exercise that is very useful to students who have already grasped the basics and I guess the same can be said for distance learning. I'm also of the opinion the basics of Wing Chun do need a disciplined approach to training, which should be closely monitored by your Sifu, over a continued length of time.

I feel very lucky to have had some quality time with my Sifu before branching out and our relationship is still growing. I guess the question is 'how long is long enough' to get the basics down? And this may all depend on your own talent and weekly training schedule.

From my coaching experience, it took almost two years, two hours per week to create a good basic standard in some dedicated students! At other times I've seen students get it in less than six months with three 2hr sessions a week. Only then would I have recommended attending seminars, but it's only my view.