Ng chan wing chun

[MOSHE]

hello,

i trained myself few times with ng chan in hong kong and in france (from where im native) when he came to visit us
i can confirm to you and to people interesting in wing chun that he was the more accomplished student of yip man ,to who he gave most of his knowledge and know how in wing chun,like the kicks.
authentic wing chun is not really what you see ,in the movements ,it is more what you dont see in the way to become free of the movements and to organise your strength regards your will
and thats the problem of wing chun today,because what people think of wing chun to be very efficient and impressive,they cannot achieve it against other syle more basic .
the reason is that they perfomed only movements ,and they teach only movements because nobody teached them the know how of wing chun
so ,in a way ,what people are practising today is not the authentic wing chun of leung chan or yip man
this wasnt the case of ng chan ,and of his closest student ki ping pun which one was living with him
Im open to any question or discussion
regards

[LoneTiger108]

Im open to any question or discussion
regards

I would hope you are as you may have just offended quite a lot of people here! :rolleyes: (Don't worry I don't get offended easily!)

Here's a few questions for you:

Are there any further resources available on your teachers story? Apart from this one http://www.wingchunkyn.com/

Have you ever trained in other Wing Chun schools? Or other Martial Arts for that matter? And for how long? With who?

Lastly, how would you explain the differences you suggest in more detail?

[MOSHE]

there is no really web support on ng chan activity
but people like po kin wah ,leon tin ,moy yat and others knew for sure that this discret man had a different approach than them.few of them was trying to ontain technics fron him
i have anyway some pictures that i can put on the site
i have been practising for more than 20 years ,and began by wing chun from vietnam ,than wing chun from china ,and met several sifu ,that the reason im direct in my way to describe it .when i made contact with the arms of ng chan and ki ping pun ,nobody had such strength ,sensation ,energy;i understoos how a women like wing chun could defeat men experimented in fighting.
i dont want to offend anybody and plus im not selling any commercial but people who want to be objectives have to ask them this question :
let say that what you see in a movie where people are perfoming wing chun is the reality
ask yourself if a women practising the same way as you ,could perform in a such impressive way and defeat people from karate ,hung gar etc ...
people are mistaking on one point ,to be soft during shi sao doent mean to be like light in contact and than physical when you want to enter
how a women could do that !
thats one part of the know how of wing chun ,both man and women have to have access to the same form of power ,there is no difference in the energy coming from a man or a women
thats wing chun
so if you train with women ,ask yourself if its possible for them to defeat you ?
and you get the answer on the quality on wing chun your are practising
thats not women who have to train like man but men to have access to a more natural strength of women
that the origine of the style

[MOSHE]

there is no really web support on ng chan activity
but people like po kin wah ,leon tin ,moy yat and others knew for sure that this discret man had a different approach than them.few of them was trying to ontain technics fron him
i have anyway some pictures that i can put on the site
i have been practising for more than 20 years ,and began by wing chun from vietnam ,than wing chun from china ,and met several sifu ,that the reason im direct in my way to describe it .when i made contact with the arms of ng chan and ki ping pun ,nobody had such strength ,sensation ,energy;i understoos how a women like wing chun could defeat men experimented in fighting.
i dont want to offend anybody and plus im not selling any commercial but people who want to be objectives have to ask them this question :
let say that what you see in a movie where people are perfoming wing chun is the reality
ask yourself if a women practising the same way as you ,could perform in a such impressive way and defeat people from karate ,hung gar etc ...
people are mistaking on one point ,to be soft during shi sao doent mean to be like light in contact and than physical when you want to enter
how a women could do that !
thats one part of the know how of wing chun ,both man and women have to have access to the same form of power ,there is no difference in the energy coming from a man or a women
thats wing chun
so if you train with women ,ask yourself if its possible for them to defeat you ?
and you get the answer on the quality on wing chun your are practising
thats not women who have to train like man but men to have access to a more natural strength of women
that the origine of the style

[Pacman]

does what you learned come from yuen kay san's brother who moved to vietnam?

[MOSHE]

no

regards

[Ultimatewingchun]

My first wing chun (Ving Tsun) instructor was Moy Yat, and I studied with him form 1975-1983....before becoming a student of William Cheung in TWC - who, btw, in Moy Yat's opinion (I once asked him) was the best fighter in the Yip Man clan.

But he also said a few things once about Ng Chan:

Firstly, that he was very much a loner and something of a mysterious character; and secondly, that, in Moy Yat's words: "His (Ng Chan's) kung fu was the most complete" - meaning that he learned the most about wing chun from Yip Man than anyone else.

Don't really know what that means, but Moy Yat did say it once. And yes, Moy Yat did say that Ng Chan once lived with Yip man.

[Ultimatewingchun]

My first wing chun (Ving Tsun) instructor was Moy Yat, and I studied with him form 1975-1983....before becoming a student of William Cheung in TWC - who, btw, in Moy Yat's opinion (I once asked him) was the best fighter in the Yip Man clan.

But he also said a few things once about Ng Chan:

Firstly, that he was very much a loner and something of a mysterious character; and secondly, that, in Moy Yat's words: "His (Ng Chan's) kung fu was the most complete" - meaning that he learned the most about wing chun from Yip Man than anyone else.

Don't really know what that means, but Moy Yat did say it once. And yes, Moy Yat did say that Ng Chan once lived with Yip man.

[MOSHE]

hello,

i can tell you what i know about ng chan
i met him first in hong kong when his close student ki ping pun introduced him to me.
he trained me and i met some other students of him and from yip man
for the little story ,some of them trained as well with bruce lee by the time he was student of yip man
they wasnt the ones you know by the media but most of them was either working for the police or even for the opposite ...
there was as well po kin wah who had the same sifu of leon tin and who was learning from ng chan
a lot of sifu was looking to receive technics from him ,but because of his character ,very special ,he was very distant about that
you have to know that yip man wasnt showing his technics really in public.he was visiting each of his closest students and was teaching them differents things from one to another ;ometting some very special details ,very important to be really accomplished in wing chun
he was even mixing the wing chun that he received from the time he was in china to the one he received from the son of leun chan in hong kong (what is the authentic wing chun)
by the way ,without looking for any polemic) ,they told me that willian cheung left hong kong to australi queit young and that the reason his basics movements are different of the one of yip man and ng chan
ng chan was working for the bus company in hong kong when he started with yip man
dont forget that wing chun is a style ,which one should be behind the door ,and it was absolutly out of question for yip man and ng chan to teach the very essence of the system to too much people ...

[MOSHE]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

hello,

i can tell you what i know about ng chan
i met him first in hong kong when his close student ki ping pun introduced him to me.
he trained me and i met some other students of him and from yip man
for the little story ,some of them trained as well with bruce lee by the time he was student of yip man
they wasnt the ones you know by the media but most of them was either working for the police or even for the opposite ...
there was as well po kin wah who had the same sifu of leon tin and who was learning from ng chan
a lot of sifu was looking to receive technics from him ,but because of his character ,very special ,he was very distant about that
you have to know that yip man wasnt showing his technics really in public.he was visiting each of his closest students and was teaching them differents things from one to another ;ometting some very special details ,very important to be really accomplished in wing chun
he was even mixing the wing chun that he received from the time he was in china to the one he received from the son of leun chan in hong kong (what is the authentic wing chun)
by the way ,without looking for any polemic) ,they told me that willian cheung left hong kong to australi queit young and that the reason his basics movements are different of the one of yip man and ng chan
ng chan was working for the bus company in hong kong when he started with yip man
dont forget that wing chun is a style ,which one should be behind the door ,and it was absolutly out of question for yip man and ng chan to teach the very essence of the system to too much people ...

[Ultimatewingchun]

Some questions about this, Moshe:

"you have to know that yip man wasnt showing his technics really in public.he was visiting each of his closest students and was teaching them differents things from one to another ;ometting some very special details ,very important to be really accomplished in wing chun..."

***I'VE HEARD THIS BEFORE...
.........................


"he was even mixing the wing chun that he received from the time he was in china to the one he received from the son of leun chan in hong kong (what is the authentic wing chun)
by the way ,without looking for any polemic) ,"

***I'VE ALSO HEARD THIS SAME THING FROM WILLIAM CHEUNG - that what Yip Man learned in Hong Kong from Leung Bik (the son of Leung Chan) was indeed the "real" wing chun.
...................................

"they told me that willian cheung left hong kong to australi queit young and that the reason his basics movements are different of the one of yip man and ng chan"

***BUT THIS PART OF YOUR STATEMENT IS UNCLEAR? What is the reason for the differences between William Cheung's movements and those of Yip man and Ng Chan?

[Bully]

Interesting post Moshe.

Even more interesting to see how this thread will turn out.

[MOSHE]

***BUT THIS PART OF YOUR STATEMENT IS UNCLEAR? What is the reason for the differences between William Cheung's movements and those of Yip man and Ng Chan?[/QUOTE]

if you are not teached the best way ,or for the time you need to accomplished youself;
so ,if you were too young and not enough mature to undestand the system
or if you are missing some technics ,you will try to substitute one way or another.
Your physic as well will influence your technics ;
if you tall ,short ,or slim or fat ,with muscles ...
See what happened with people who have implemented wing chun with ,grabbling ,fighting on the ground ,chi kong,shina ...
they go far from the authentic W C
BUT at the same time if when ,fighting against another style and as a result you see that you are not doing more than kick boxing ,you can tell yourself that you have not been teached wing chun
and please this is not a way to offend people who train serously and honnestly ,but just to try to give you an true picture of the reality of a style that not everybody can have access to authentic one
but this can help you to question yourselves ,to ask you question about you training and the way to improve it
let me add something ,i have been during a while the only student of ki ping pun ,i neither paid anything ,because himself when he was leaving at ng chan house didnt pay anything.the only price that i have to provide was only to show motivation and to train serously but i receive an very classic teaching ,i neither practise repeating the same sequence of movement 20 times that an different sequence.
i had to get familiar with a concept attached to each movement and that to be free of the movement
and this is already the base of wing chun because if you train several time the same sequence ,its already not anymore wing chun
wing chun try to teach to ready for any kind of situation that you will try to drive yourself but if you plane something too precise during the training you become dead and your technic is mechanic not alife like it should be
there is neither the two same situations in fighting
i understand that people who live from the teaching has to be abble to provide something to motivate their student but training in a mechanical way kill the system and the ability to improve above the movements

[MOSHE]

***BUT THIS PART OF YOUR STATEMENT IS UNCLEAR? What is the reason for the differences between William Cheung's movements and those of Yip man and Ng Chan?[/QUOTE]

if you are not teached the best way ,or for the time you need to accomplished youself;
so ,if you were too young and not enough mature to undestand the system
or if you are missing some technics ,you will try to substitute one way or another.
Your physic as well will influence your technics ;
if you tall ,short ,or slim or fat ,with muscles ...
See what happened with people who have implemented wing chun with ,grabbling ,fighting on the ground ,chi kong,shina ...
they go far from the authentic W C
BUT at the same time if when ,fighting against another style and as a result you see that you are not doing more than kick boxing ,you can tell yourself that you have not been teached wing chun
and please this is not a way to offend people who train serously and honnestly ,but just to try to give you an true picture of the reality of a style that not everybody can have access to authentic one
but this can help you to question yourselves ,to ask you question about you training and the way to improve it
let me add something ,i have been during a while the only student of ki ping pun ,i neither paid anything ,because himself when he was leaving at ng chan house didnt pay anything.the only price that i have to provide was only to show motivation and to train serously but i receive an very classic teaching ,i neither practise repeating the same sequence of movement 20 times that an different sequence.
i had to get familiar with a concept attached to each movement and that to be free of the movement
and this is already the base of wing chun because if you train several time the same sequence ,its already not anymore wing chun
wing chun try to teach to ready for any kind of situation that you will try to drive yourself but if you plane something too precise during the training you become dead and your technic is mechanic not alife like it should be
there is neither the two same situations in fighting
i understand that people who live from the teaching has to be abble to provide something to motivate their student but training in a mechanical way kill the system and the ability to improve above the movements

[Ultimatewingchun]

Moshe,

There is no need to start a new thread with each of your posts, you can keep answering questions and making comments on just one thread about Ng Chan - like this thread. :D

Okay...

But what I'm really asking is for some details about what you see that's different in William Cheung's TWC (assuming you have seen TWC)...

what's different about TWC's "basic movements" (as you put it earlier)...than what you've seen in Ng Chan's wing chun - and in particular, the wing chun that he (Ng Chan) got from Yip Man that came from his training in Hong Kong with Leung Bik (Leung Chan's son).

The version of wing chun that you referred to earlier as the "authentic" wing chun.

What are the differences between this and William Cheung's TWC?

Please be specific.

[YungChun]

Please be specific.

Don't hold your breath Victor.. :rolleyes::p:D

[bennyvt]

wow thats a new one. He was the only person to learn proper VT. So leung shueng, lok yiu, wong sun leung, tsui sun tin, yip bo ching (who I have heard was his best guy but doesn't teach) all were not taught properly. So he let people teach a ****ty version of VT using his good name.
I think a few people have already claimed the "I was the one who learnt real ving tsun and no one else did" I think details would be helpfull to see if this just another, master of almightyness complex.

[hunt1]

Benny Yip Bo Ching has been dead for a long time. Died before Yip Man. He did and didn't teach depending on your pov. He had a few friends he trained as workout partners and to help improve his wing chun but no he never had a school or officially had students.

[MOSHE]

hello,

i have to tell you that first im in this forum because i try to be in contact with a member who said that his father was a student of ng chan.so ive been catched by the interest to inform who practise wing chun about some that i know

anyway the more important is that people enjoy what they are doing and after to be abble to appreciate themselves ,honestly if what they are practising is answering to their expectations

to do this ,you have two ways ,
to test yourself with others and to check if technicly speaking (certainly not with physic strength) you drive the situation
or to meet more sifus and to see if they have something special

you asked me about william cheung
the difference between his wing chun and the one of ng chan is big ,very far

the position of the basics movements ,we can say can look close but in fact in the insight of wing chun are quite far
the stance is different
and the know how totally different
i have no time to start a description of all the movements

but i will try to explain in general and if you have a good mastering (sensation) of your body and some experience you will understand the point

i recall you first that the strength and energy that you have to provide in wing chun has to be the one that we are expecting from a women (who doesnt try to look like a man)

plus in wing chun when the hand launch an attack ,it has to come back only one the opponent is down and this in one movement
but one movement in wing chun is not like boxing where your punch and the hand step back each time for the following to attack

in wing chun the hand doents step back but when your arm meet an obstacle ,than you circulate by the shortest way (and this, as often you need) to strike the point you decide to strike
this is called one movement because during this your sensation and strengh move on differents locations of your forearm and hand and this never stop ,if its sopped your become dead in the way of wing chun because at this moment you are not anymore driving the situation (an empty moment)
if between each movement you stop your flow even a micro sec in you arm (like for exemple physical style of fighting when there is a break or a contraction between 2 movements ) you are not anymore practising what is making the specificty of wing chun
so knowing that a women created this style and is abble to provide a very particular strength ,and is abble to use the opponent force as well ;she organised differents movements which ones help to create a leverage in order to deflect attacks ,to control all kind of energy in the opponent arm and to allow you to circulate without any break or stop in the flow of your movements
this said should help anyone to keep in mind the purpose of wing chun

simple exemple ;you do bon sao followed by tan sao like you learned ,you must feel that the transition between both kill your flow of continuous sensation and stength to control continusly an other arm
that is not a good leverage

i hope i have answered to your expectation ,and sorry for my english (being french)
regards

[MOSHE]

not sure if i sent to right thread

[LoneTiger108]

let me add something ,i have been during a while the only student of ki ping pun ,i neither paid anything ,because himself when he was leaving at ng chan house didnt pay anything.the only price that i have to provide was only to show motivation and to train serously but i receive an very classic teaching ,i neither practise repeating the same sequence of movement 20 times that an different sequence. i had to get familiar with a concept attached to each movement and that to be free of the movement and this is already the base of wing chun because if you train several time the same sequence ,its already not anymore wing chun

This is interesting to me because it sounds like we have had a similar experience in our learning of Wing Chun. I guess the term toedai may be familar to you?

It would be good to hear more from you. Share some more ideas of what Ng Chans Wing Chun was like and how you practise today. You have forms? Concepts? Curriculums?

[Ultimatewingchun]

You sent it to the right thread.

[stonecrusher69]

***BUT THIS PART OF YOUR STATEMENT IS UNCLEAR? What is the reason for the differences between William Cheung's movements and those of Yip man and Ng Chan?

if you are not teached the best way ,or for the time you need to accomplished youself;
so ,if you were too young and not enough mature to undestand the system
or if you are missing some technics ,you will try to substitute one way or another.
Your physic as well will influence your technics ;
if you tall ,short ,or slim or fat ,with muscles ...
See what happened with people who have implemented wing chun with ,grabbling ,fighting on the ground ,chi kong,shina ...
they go far from the authentic W C
BUT at the same time if when ,fighting against another style and as a result you see that you are not doing more than kick boxing ,you can tell yourself that you have not been teached wing chun
and please this is not a way to offend people who train serously and honnestly ,but just to try to give you an true picture of the reality of a style that not everybody can have access to authentic one
but this can help you to question yourselves ,to ask you question about you training and the way to improve it
let me add something ,i have been during a while the only student of ki ping pun ,i neither paid anything ,because himself when he was leaving at ng chan house didnt pay anything.the only price that i have to provide was only to show motivation and to train serously but i receive an very classic teaching ,i neither practise repeating the same sequence of movement 20 times that an different sequence.
i had to get familiar with a concept attached to each movement and that to be free of the movement
and this is already the base of wing chun because if you train several time the same sequence ,its already not anymore wing chun
wing chun try to teach to ready for any kind of situation that you will try to drive yourself but if you plane something too precise during the training you become dead and your technic is mechanic not alife like it should be
there is neither the two same situations in fighting
i understand that people who live from the teaching has to be abble to provide something to motivate their student but training in a mechanical way kill the system and the ability to improve above the movements[/QUOTE]

Just flow!!

[MOSHE]

i dont have this term in mind

[Phil Redmond]

@ moshe Are you saying that the only good WC student was Ng Chan and that the only good WC is from Yip Man?
Yip Man had seniors you know.
What about the WC that Leung Jan taught when he went back to his native village of Gu Lo? Of course you know who Leung Jan was.

[MOSHE]

i dont make any judment about what is good or not
i just say that regarding what was the style at the begining ,the one from yip man that he received from the son of leung chan is the closest to
speaking about the way it is practised in china for example ,the wing chun of sung sun (i dont remember the exact name) ,i knew his daughter in france and practised at this time with her husband ,its is quite physical and not the same approach of the one of yip man which one is more feminine.ome reason was that sha wa chan had very strong arms ,so in this system they use a lot the larp sao
concerning ng chan ,perhaps there is others who received the same as him ,i dont know.
what i can tell you ,is that what they show up to their students or on their website is out of the roots and authentaticity of wing chun.

[LoneTiger108]

I'm trying to understand your posts MOSHE but it is quite difficult!

If I've picked up what I think I've picked up from this last one then I can see where you're coming from and can (almost) agree! If I were you I wouldn't concern yourself too much with what is available online and what is authentic.

Wing Chun has grown far more than ANYONE expected and this does mean that it will develop in it's own way. Some for good and some not. At least you now have that scope to choose from and it sounds like you have a good grounding anyway.

[Bully]

Where abouts in France are you Moshe?

[yellow aster]

It is very interesting to learn about another student of Yip Man. I had never heard of this individual before. Merci.

[Vajramusti]

It is very interesting to learn about another student of Yip Man. I had never heard of this individual before. Merci.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ditto for sure. I ignore the comments on the uniqueness of that lineage pending more information.

joy chaudhuri

[MOSHE]

where abouts in france are you moshe?

near versailles ,suburb of paris

[MOSHE]

I'm trying to understand your posts MOSHE but it is quite difficult!

If I've picked up what I think I've picked up from this last one then I can see where you're coming from and can (almost) agree! If I were you I wouldn't concern yourself too much with what is available online and what is authentic.

Wing Chun has grown far more than ANYONE expected and this does mean that it will develop in it's own way. Some for good and some not. At least you now have that scope to choose from and it sounds like you have a good grounding anyway.

My english is not so fluent
whatever ,if you have any precise question dont hesitate
first i was just trying to contact a member called muketi
i dont use to participate to forum ,but for the time i will do it ,i will try to provide in my comments or answers ,a logic that will help some people to rethink their wing chun in order to improve it
i will not say everything but some point should be very relevant

regards

[Ultimatewingchun]

Joy and yellow...

Just to reiterate what I said much earlier on this thread: I heard about Ng Chan from waaay back in my early days training under Moy Yat.

And based upon what Master Moy had to say, I've always been intrigued by this guy, but not surprised that virtually no one's ever heard of him - for Moy Yat did say that Ng Chan was very much a loner and a bit of a mystery.

And all Grandmaster William Cheuing had to say about him when I asked (during the first TWC weekend I ever attended back in 1983)...was that "Yeah, Ng chan. He's my sidai."

That was it.

[MOSHE]

i will provide more soon

[MOSHE]

Joy and yellow...

Just to reiterate what I said much earlier on this thread: I heard about Ng Chan from waaay back in my early days training under Moy Yat.

And based upon what Master Moy had to say, I've always been intrigued by this guy, but not surprised that virtually no one's ever heard of him - for Moy Yat did say that Ng Chan was very much a loner and a bit of a mystery.

And all Grandmaster William Cheuing had to say about him when I asked (during the first TWC weekend I ever attended back in 1983)...was that "Yeah, Ng chan. He's my sidai."

That was it.

he met as well ki ping pun in paris

[chusauli]

Just thinking I have seen Ng Chan's WCK before. There is a Walter Wong here in Los Angeles who taught Mike Young, Douglas Wong and Bill Henderson. Walter was Ng Chan's student.

Douglas Wong wrote a book - "Deceptive Hands of Wing Chun" a while back...

Bill Henderson wrote "Wing Chun (Southern Style Kung Fu)".

Its not that different from the other branches of Yip Man's WCK. There is one section of Biu Jee that has Kwun Sao, though.

[Vajramusti]

I didn't think that Ng Chan wing chun would be very special- I just wanted to listen.

joy chaudhuri

[Ultimatewingchun]

he met as well ki ping pun in paris

***ARE you saying that William Cheung once met ki ping pun once in Paris?

[MOSHE]

Just thinking I have seen Ng Chan's WCK before. There is a Walter Wong here in Los Angeles who taught Mike Young, Douglas Wong and Bill Henderson. Walter was Ng Chan's student.

Douglas Wong wrote a book - "Deceptive Hands of Wing Chun" a while back...

Bill Henderson wrote "Wing Chun (Southern Style Kung Fu)".

Its not that different from the other branches of Yip Man's WCK. There is one section of Biu Jee that has Kwun Sao, though.

i have seen these books
my sifu doesnt know these guys,and most of the time ng chan were showing to him the technics and him was showing it to the other students
but even before him a lot of guys were learnig only for few months than left ...
for sure that not the wing chun i learned

[MOSHE]

***ARE you saying that William Cheung once met ki ping pun once in Paris?

yes ,fore sure

[Vajramusti]

i have seen these books
my sifu doesnt know these guys,and most of the time ng chan were showing to him the technics and him was showing it to the other students
but even before him a lot of guys were learnig only for few months than left ...
for sure that not the wing chun i learned
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I would not hold anyone responsible for that bad book- The Deceptive Hands of Wing chun- besides the author.It was nice to have the publisher as a relative.

joy chaudhuri

[chusauli]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I would not hold anyone responsible for that bad book- The Deceptive Hands of Wing chun- besides the author.It was nice to have the publisher as a relative.

joy chaudhuri


I often refer to that as the "Deceptive Book of Wing Chun"... :)

[kung fu fighter]

if you have any precise question dont hesitate
i will try to provide in my comments or answers ,a logic that will help some people to rethink their wing chun in order to improve it

Hi MOSHE,

What are some of the main differences when comparing NG Chan interpretation of wing chun to some of Yip Man's other students such as Yip Ching, Wong sheung Leung and Ho Kam Ming in regards to applications and fighting?

[Ultimatewingchun]

I've read your posts and replies about Ng Chan patiently - hoping to find out more about the man Moy Yat once referred to in a conversation with me as the student of Yip Man whose "wing chun was the most complete - because he once lived with Yip Man."

And you also said that the "authentic" wing chun was what Yip Man learned in Hong Kong from Leung Bik, clearly inferring that Ng Chan also learned from Yip Man what it was that Yip Man had learned from Leung Bik - and not just what Yip Man had originally learned on the mainland from Chan Wah Shun.

And by now just about everyone knows that William Cheung has said that he learned the Leung Bik version of wing chun from Yip Man very secretly during the time that he (William Cheung) lived with Yip Man. And William Cheung has said that the Leung Bik version is the "authentic" (hence the word "Traditional") wing chun.

QUITE A PARALLEL, huh???!!!

And you've said that William Cheung once met a student of Ng Chan's in Paris...but you've also said that William Cheung's TWC lacks some "basic movements" (your words) that make it less efficient than what Ng Chan knew and has taught.

This is fine, Moshe, except that without some very specific details (or perhaps even a vid-or-two for us to see)...you're not telling us enough to be taken seriously.

WHAT EXACTLY IS DIFFERENT BETWEEN WILLIAM CHEUNG'S WING CHUN AND NG CHAN'S WING CHUN?

Given the parallel stories about both men - you can't be taken seriously without providing very clear specifics when you say that one of them used less effective and efficient "basic movements" than the other.

This tells us nothing.

[LoneTiger108]

Personally I think that if you make this tread about verifying or condemning what Sifu William Cheung does now or has done during his time with Ip Man then we will lose Moshe and his (potentially) vital input!

[Ultimatewingchun]

There is no real input - it's become yet another "we've got the real wing chun" claim without any specifics to back it up. But I'm offering MOSHE the chance to get specific, especially since there is another story from another lineage that runs very parallel.

Sorry, but when he makes statements like the "basic movements" one he made - I want to see backup evidence.

William Cheung has said that the Leung Bik version of wing chun he learned (which he now calls TWC) was the authentic wing chun, and if I may paraphrase his claims: these (TWC) movements are the "basic movments of wing chun that are the most efficient."

EXACTLY WHAT MOSHE IS SAYING ABOUT NG CHAN'S WING CHUN.

Okay, but MOSHE also says that Ng Chan's wing chun is very different from William Cheung's TWC in its "basic movements".

Fine, but now it's time to back that up with some details/specifics/evidence. You see, whether you agree with William Cheung's assessment of the TWC "difference" or not (and you don't have to agree)...

and regardless of whether or not you believe William Cheung's story as to where TWC came from...

at least he's shown the world what this "TWC" wing chun system looks like; and yes, in many ways it is different than what the rest of Yip Man's students were doing - regardless of whether or not someone deems those differences as better or worse .

So If you're going to make claims like these - you need to at least show people what you're talking about.

Otherwise, it's nothing but talk.

So this doesn't have to be a William Cheung vs. Ng Chan debate - but simply a conversation that includes full disclosure.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Thanks for your post, Raymond. Could you ask your dad if he knows which year (or years) was it that Ng Chan lived with Yip Man?

[Vajramusti]

I wanted to add my thanks for your post -Raymond.

joy chaudhuri

[Bully]

Me too, whilst I am not interested in the politics, I love the history/stories/memories to be passed on about WC/VT etc.

Thanks again.

[MOSHE]

iv no much time right now to answer you in detail
im not trying to polemic
so please feel relax
and again sorry for my english ,which one give a special tone to my writing

i trained 20 years with ki ping pun and met as well ng chan several time and pratised with him

i have benchmarks in order to evaluate wing chun that perhaps you dont have
i have seen practising others like w c ...
my purpose is not to try to demolish other wing chun ,every one has to be happy with what he receive

but dont forget that all these masters have created commercial system that is opposite to the uniqueness of wing chun .which one is a style ,hiden behind the door

so what i was proposing ,is to give you rules or concepts that should help to evoluate your own wing chun
if you read me again ,and analyse it with calm ,you will be in a better situation to question yourself

i cannot teach wing chun through the forum ,describing each technic of ng chan and even worst ,to compare it to others.
let us try to be at a higher level, and try to exchange concept
example :
i was saying that the movements should provide leverage ,to provide a feminine force,and to allow you to be close if front of your opponent
to allow as well a continuous flow of movements without break that should cause to go to develop phycical force (masculine force), to allow as to drive the opponent arms
if your movements respect this ,thats good .if not try to correct it

regards

[Ultimatewingchun]

Yeah, okay...whatever.

[sanjuro_ronin]

but dont forget that all these masters have created commercial system that is opposite to the uniqueness of wing chun .which one is a style ,hiden behind the door

That speaks volumes.

[yellow aster]

MOSHE,
Are you currently teaching Wing Chun in France?

[MOSHE]

that speaks volumes.

im not familiar with this expression (im french) ,what does this mean please ?

[MOSHE]

moshe,
are you currently teaching wing chun in france?

right now im not located in france ,and i do have a small group of students

[sanjuro_ronin]

im not familiar with this expression (im french) ,what does this mean please ?

It means that when someone starts talking about
"masters have created commercial system that is opposite to the uniqueness of wing chun .which one is a style ,hidden behind the door ",
they are basically stating the tired and used " We have the real WC" crap that is heard over and over again.
Of course, YOU wouldn't do anything like that, would you?
You would never sell your students a fake version of WC?
You would give your hard working dedicated students all that the need to survive in a fight, right?
But not these other "commercial sifus", no they created a fake and commercial WC, not the REAL one that you have, right?

[goju]

interesting albeit some what farfetched story:D

[MOSHE]

It means that when someone starts talking about
"masters have created commercial system that is opposite to the uniqueness of wing chun .which one is a style ,hidden behind the door ",
they are basically stating the tired and used " We have the real WC" crap that is heard over and over again.
Of course, YOU wouldn't do anything like that, would you?
You would never sell your students a fake version of WC?
You would give your hard working dedicated students all that the need to survive in a fight, right?
But not these other "commercial sifus", no they created a fake and commercial WC, not the REAL one that you have, right?

thats life !!!
some are blessed with the best ,and others differently !
you can decide to receive my post like you are writing ,but you could have choose another way ,and try to understand the new pespective that i was trying to open for others.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Riiiiight...

[sanjuro_ronin]

thats life !!!
some are blessed with the best ,and others differently !
you can decide to receive my post like you are writing ,but you could have choose another way ,and try to understand the new pespective that i was trying to open for others.

You offered NO perspective for others, you offered nothing new under the sun, as the say goes.
You sound condesending and it sounds like you were insinuating that what everyone else was taught was commercial and not the real WC.
And like everyone else that things that way about anything without knowing EVERYTHING, you are wrong, period.

[goju]

this almost reminds me of cult like aspects that were discussed in martial arts on previous thread:D

[sanjuro_ronin]

this almost reminds me of cult like aspects that were discussed in martial arts on previous thread:D

What? cults and mind ****ing in the MA?
You're crazy !!!
:D

[goju]

i am not crazy! i have merely seen the light and opened the doors of my mind to the various alternate universes of reality!!!!

[kung fu fighter]

thats life !!!
some are blessed with the best ,and others differently !
you can decide to receive my post like you are writing ,but you could have choose another way ,and try to understand the new pespective that i was trying to open for others.

How can you yourself be sure, you learnt the best if you are not even willing to compare notes:). Could you at least give a few general points as to why you feel this way. No one is asking you to teach them online!

[Vajramusti]

See the beginning of the thread:Moshe started off nicely about NG Chan who has not been much in the lime light and Raymond shared some insights from what his father told him about Ng Chan.

But Moshe- perhaps because of language gap possibly got drawn into the not unusual contentious chemistry of this net forum and pushed some wrong buttons- by assuming that all of wing chun outside of his is mercenary, masculine etc etc.

I would not be too hard on a relatively new poster.

joy chaudhuri

[Phil Redmond]

iv no much time right now to answer you in detail
im not trying to polemic
so please feel relax
and again sorry for my english ,which one give a special tone to my writing

i trained 20 years with ki ping pun and met as well ng chan several time and pratised with him

i have benchmarks in order to evaluate wing chun that perhaps you dont have
i have seen practising others like w c ...
my purpose is not to try to demolish other wing chun ,every one has to be happy with what he receive

but dont forget that all these masters have created commercial system that is opposite to the uniqueness of wing chun .which one is a style ,hiden behind the door

so what i was proposing ,is to give you rules or concepts that should help to evoluate your own wing chun
if you read me again ,and analyse it with calm ,you will be in a better situation to question yourself

i cannot teach wing chun through the forum ,describing each technic of ng chan and even worst ,to compare it to others.
let us try to be at a higher level, and try to exchange concept
example :
i was saying that the movements should provide leverage ,to provide a feminine force,and to allow you to be close if front of your opponent
to allow as well a continuous flow of movements without break that should cause to go to develop phycical force (masculine force), to allow as to drive the opponent arms
if your movements respect this ,thats good .if not try to correct it

regards

I see that you have 20 years in WC. Well, I have 40 years in WC with many different Sifus and I still don't say that I have the Holy Grail of WC. You need to tone it down a little because I'm not impressed in the least. Throughout my WC history I have NEVER said that other people's WC is less then mine. Do you know why? It's because NONE of us were present during the development of WC. We can only report what our respective Sifus tell us and to me that's not enough. Otherwise opinions/stories are like a**holes. Everyone has one. I'd also like to add that I competed in MANY full contact events using WC. My WC has worked for me. I NEVER lost a competition. Have you tested your superior WC in competitions?????

[LoneTiger108]

I agree. We should not be too harsh on him even though a lot of the information he provided matches to what my dad told me in the past...

... The complicated politics was probably one of the reasons why he remained low-profile, as well as not accepting too many students.

I hear you, but unfortunately I think too much ammo has been given to the ego-brigade! :(

EDIT:
Sorry, I didn't really mean that! Many who post here just simply like to excahnge info and ideas but we do get interrupted on a regular basis...

[Bully]

How about you write in your native French Moshe?

We may be able to understand a bit better then? I mean someone on here must be fluent? I can speak a bit, but not enough for the tech WC stuff.

Just a thought? Rather than bickering? Dont forget not all cultures are the same and whilst some of you guys think Moshe is belittling your WC, try going to France and explaining in their language why you think your version of WC is effective. Meanings may get lost in translation.

Cheers

Bully

edit, I see we have some Canadian guys, anyone from the French speaking part? Quebec iirc??

[chusauli]

Type it in French - I studied French for 5 years and still read. We can always have Google translate for us.

Rene speaks French fluently, my friend Jacques does also.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Thanks for the post, Raymond...

Very interesting (and seemingly thorough) timeline and lists of who studied with Yip Man, and where...and when.

And very interesting (and seemingly thorough) timeline for Yip Man's entire life history.

I won't argue about who was sihing/sidai between William Cheung and Ng Chan - because how could I know for sure?

Still interested in when it was exactly that Ng Chan lived with Yip Man.

Do you know?

[Vajramusti]

I get the impression from one "history" that Ng Chan began after WSL when IM had shifted from
teaching at the Restaurant workers union (where Leung Sheung began)to Hoi Tan st... then a year or two later the school moved back to the Restaurant workers union where W. Cheung became a student... making Cheung- Ng Chan's sidai.

The changes were related to union politics and changes in union leadership possibly.

In the long run it doesn't matter- (who knows?the shadow knows)what matters is how the art was taught by different people...and
according tp Moshe...Ng Chan's wc was more cognizant of the feminine side of wing chun than some others.I wish Moshe or your father could elaborate more on that?(Without generalizing about all other wing chun)

Impressions can be interesting though real history can be problematic. There are different timelines sometimes given...but not all private students knew each other. There is also Ip Chun's time line though he came to HK much later around 1962?

I am often skeptical of "histories"-especially where egos of the narrators are involved.

Getting late-no proof reading or editing.... good night!

joy chaudhuri

I am thankful that a great art continued downstream to our times.

[Ultimatewingchun]

I do remember Moy Yat once saying that Ng Chan was Duncan Leung's sifu.

[LoneTiger108]

Impressions can be interesting though real history can be problematic. There are different timelines sometimes given...but not all private students knew each other.

It's not only that the private students didn't know eachother, it's also difficult because most of the younger commercial students didn't know them either.

I guess with Ip Man Private' actually meant 'Private'!

At a gathering held last weekend, my Uncle Sifu Austin Goh talked briefly about how Lee Shing was so proud to learn from Ip Man, and he cherished the time he spent with him in Hong Kong, mostly learning in Hotel rooms! He felt that he also had been passed something very special indeed and this was one of the main reasons for his reluctance to teach brawlers and trouble makers.


Also Sifu Ng Chan was good friends with Chow Tze Chuen (from Kowloon Bus of HK) and Moy Yat, and often visited by them.

It seems that Ng Chan was around at similar times to Lee Shing (1950's), so I was wondering if anything has ever been said to you about them knowing eachother? Lee Shing was only in his thirties back then.

[LSWCTN1]

I do remember Moy Yat once saying that Ng Chan was Duncan Leung's sifu.

maybe true, maybe not.

big trees catch more wind and i understand that MY and DL weren't exactly best friends...

[Ultimatewingchun]

If you read Raymond's post carefully, it says that Duncan started with Ng Chan and then became Yip Man's student.

[LSWCTN1]

just thought...

wasnt it ng chan doing a knife form on one one the VTAA meetings' DVDs?

[MOSHE]

我写了因电影的原因而出现的一大批急于赚钱的咏春拳大师,有人不快乐是正常.其实教拳赚钱也无可厚非,至于 有多少技术,一般商业行为,也不是很重要,只是,我生平痛恨哪些骗人的行为,特别学拳的人,大部分为少年, 年青人,社会经验不多,不要希骗他们,另外的是,不要每每自称大师.
咏春拳从来没有掌门,没有宗师,也没有徒弟,只有传人.传人是继承核心技术和咏春拳的精神意义 ,粱赞-粱壁-叶问-伍灿-粱厚---,郭富原本是叶问早期选中的传人,但其天资不够[算我不客气.对不起,]但他所学的核心技术箅是很多包括刀,及打胍法,从他的相片拿刀方式,但视频里跟哪个女记者的左 右[手+禁.打不出这个字],他转手时,身体摆动太大,即是说,他腰马还不过关,跟伍灿与仑佳的学生在酒店chi手的视频伍灿所用的摊 手拦手,[立=同音]手,上脖子[胫=同音],完全不是哪个层次,伍灿转了马,都看不见,和他chi手的人连反应都没有.至于郭伟湛,打椿时,身体摆耒 摆去,无马无形,相去已远,至于,棍.刀,视频所见,巳离题.我说得不客气,但绝对真话,无谓 生气.
咏春拳传人要默默不出名,所以绝对没有什么关门弟子,五大,十大弟子,今天人们开口秒杀,.咏春拳就是为此 而
咏春拳就是为此而创,单是这原因.已经不会轻易教人,今天,人们使用简单的技术已觉了不起,何 况核心技术,
咏春拳先不说十二胍法而从梅花椿说起,整个清初到民国福建及两广[广东,广西]都是反清义仕之重地,天地会[三合会]洪门所众对外称'少林'或'南少林'没有寺,不是今天的河南少林寺[在我眼里,这个少林寺是中国武术的最大骗子]秘密训练军队,所以各地各村都练武,从太平军,三元里平英团到民国岭南拳术都发挥淋漓尽致,岭南拳术的独特 搏斗,上梅花椿成为高手绝对的技术搏斗，货真价实,咏春拳上梅花椿,首先,马要稳而不要马死实,走动快速, 除了拳脚,步法更加讲究,最为简单是打对方的脚,抢占对方所立之椿,所以就有了所谓的梅花椿步马练习方法和 技术,即梅花步,练习梅花椿,得要从小念头开始,一脚而立,另一脚成护脚姿势,合上双眼,用半小时打完小念 头,这样,你就知道怎样在椿上站得稳,
咏春拳脚法如手法,多而密,连环八脚,生死八脚,死里求生八脚,正身横脚,正身正脚,转身正脚,侧身横脚, 圈脚.拍脚.护脚,绑脚，摊脚，膝头等,我们打脚时练好脚尖,脚内侧,外侧,脚背,俩面脚眼骨.脚跟,脚小 腿[即俗称上下五寸之处.做到手到脚到,手脚一起打对方.
八斩刀,使用双刀,马步要灵活,走马快速而稳,今时视频所见

[MOSHE]

所见,根本就不是八斩刀,公开表演,1960年代,香港的电影演员-李居安小姐在香港TVB欢乐今宵表演过一点,其他可以说全不是,或者根本不懂,连拿刀都不知道,看看郭富的 相片,人家怎样拿刀.不讲技术,你不是传人,你连拿刀的力都没有,人家拿把关刀,大刀打你,你试试打?圈刀 就不见有人表演,视频所见的八斩刀,连刀形都不知所谓,看看郭富的相片,刀是哪个样子,使用双刀如机械人, 马步僵硬,双手无动作,全身空间大出,如果对手拿个樱枪,包你全身都出血.
六点半棍原本是樱枪,于携带不方便而改成棍,岭南拳术地城原因使用长棍跟太极的大杆完全不同,我们用硬木, 他们用白腊杆,基本单头棍以圈,挑,点为主,但咏春拳六点半棍练得好的传人也不多,因为很需时,练圈点没有 十年八年.使用不得.,现代人,对岭南的单头棍都不了解,视频里的六点半棍连力都没有,拿棍拿不起,连拿在 什么地方都不知,粱挺的如五郎八卦棍,北京的王大师是太极大杆,六点半棍,首先拿棍棍尾不外露,双手距离在 一手之内.单头棍是以静打对方动作,不是走来走去,试想搏斗时,人家从后面攻击,你如何?所以,我们有'漏 棍',人家对你冲进棍内,你如何?所以有双方抢棍反抢棍等,
标指,动作简单易学,如果这样谁都可以发挥威力,但好象不见谁能发挥出她的威力,首先,有没有 练手指插沙?[争]肘都不知如何发出.
寻桥,故名思义,走马寻桥,咏春拳的马,极为难练难用,虽然狗屁理论一大堆,什么提肛,收肚,挺胸,但就偏 偏做不出,一到寻桥马,就有前弓后箭,三体式.太极式,种类凡多,小念头的二字x羊马基础全不见,剩下的就 只有直线向前打拳,要不就走个大偏身摊打,并且昂身,上文叫我看医生的上海元生堂的哪个小孩,我在咏春拳论 坛看到你们的照片,你们哪些马,前面的脚是曲的,快成形意拳三体式了,咏春拳马是重心脚在后,起脚身不动, ,
小念头,人们说得最多的一套,但明白吗?说几个举例,圈手收拳,谁都例行如事,以为是行礼,其实小念头一开 始就为训练长桥发力,特别是伸直手,圈手收拳,这里告诉你,伸直手握拳,有一天,有人用一个长 桥级拳[如蔡李佛]你握紧拳,手心向下,等他的手撞向你的拳头骨,因为他是内手撞来,搅不好碰上手的胍门举不起,哪需复什,你 马上可以试,整天中线冲拳，马怎样走？可知咏春破中手？咏春拳巧妙处处都是,看似简单,学起来 难,
我不是职业教拳,只是爱好,来学的人,很多是长期习武之人,各门各派,我对得最多的,以前是蔡李佛1960 年代
,香港有三十万人学,70年代有泰拳,
看一编文章,香港有个马明达,说什么马步不用练,狗屁,马步是中国拳术的最重要部分,不是什么练马步是为了 骑马,马步是发挥力量的基础,北方种麦,地干,下地时担上重的东西不觉得难,而且多用车推拉,而南方稻田, 你试想下田担上重东西,走在烂泥带水而你看不见底时,马步不好,你马上摔倒,所以,岭南拳术都讲究练马步, 而冠以马步之称刚刚是借用了打仗时两军交战人马步伐协调的重要性,
很多带艺来学的人,一见到木人椿就忍不住动手,但都没办法用得上力,打椿一定要用力,而且要把打椿打出来的 力用于搏斗上,永远记住,武力,武就要有力,没有力一切免谈,然后是力用准用巧,一身牛力,打几下就累,哪 不是术.

[wkmark]

I read the above and actually understood what the article was about. If anyone needs an English Translation... given time I think I can do.

[MOSHE]

it would be nice to do it

[MOSHE]

link ng chan lineage

http://www.wingchunkyn.com/bbs/

[aznandy625]

Not sure how accurate this is.

1953 – 1954
Yip Man 60 to 61 years old Hong Kong The school was moved to Hoi Tan Street . Students at that time were Wong Shun Leung, Wong Kiu, Wong Chok, Ng Chan and others. Yip Man also taught private lessons at Three Princes Temple on Yui Chow Street , Shamshuipo. Students were Lee Hon and others.

http://www.hkwingchun.com/root/yipman

[Franck]

Bonjour MOSHE,

Je t' ai envoyé un mp.

Franck

[MOSHE]

hello,

anyone interesting to learn ng chan wing chun in israel can contact me

regards

[kung fu fighter]

Here is the man himself, his body structure kind of reminds me of Ho Kam Ming from what little I can remember.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9VK1HJNkfA&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7A710p5iess&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bf8s2ZCC7Vg&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAibm4DnsoA&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wt3oSndkAnA

[Vajramusti]

Here is the man himself, his body structure kind of reminds me of Ho Kam Ming from what little I can remember.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9VK1HJNkfA&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7A710p5iess&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bf8s2ZCC7Vg&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAibm4DnsoA&feature=related
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not really- but then we all have our own perceptions.

joy chaudhuri

[WC1277]

Here is the man himself, his body structure kind of reminds me of Ho Kam Ming from what little I can remember.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9VK1HJNkfA&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7A710p5iess&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bf8s2ZCC7Vg&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAibm4DnsoA&feature=related

Agree with joy

The first video where he comes out with the tan for no reason to open the line is against core concept. Asking hands are only performed along center line otherwise it's chasing hands. Forms completely different also

[MOSHE]

六点半棍


我这里是大白天，很热。我的小白电脑，被偷，现在的有点慢。还有，楼上，请保持论坛平等，不要 用称呼。
下面介绍，因而会涉及一些人，如有得罪，请原谅，绝无恶意，纯讨论，并留给新一代继而成传，发展。希望不要 单单为了赚钱而误导下一代，愧对祖先。
1，为什么咏春拳会在云云岭南武术兵器里，只选一长一短的单头棍和双短刀呢？
2，要了解兵器使用特性，原理。因为长度，重量都有严格定义，它们主要涉及力量的表现和场合应用 。
3，兵器使用力量是拳术力量的伸然，它不会超出本身拳术的发力原则。
上述原因，不会误入正宗不正宗之争。我受现代教育，讲求逻辑，追求历史文化关系，分辨传说，调查，例证，说 出不是之处，必有解释。
咏春拳是反清组织用于追杀叛徙的'护法拳'.她属于组织而不是个人.所以,没有拜师,没有师徙关系,只有传 人.不开神位拜祖师,不拜神.只有烧黄纸斩鸡头发毒誓.
棍.刀是五梅选的.棍来自至善.刀来自苗x.

图中是双刀原形,而咏春刀因为运用特性原因,改短很多,但保留了尖,护手,扣反兵器叉.而不是今日所见的开 山刀形.
咏春刀用,剌,斩,圈,拍,扣,反汤[音],捆,耕方式运用,脚法,马走位配合特大力量,而绝不是人们今天视频看到那种空位百出,没有步法,没在力量 的所谓咏春刀.如果这些人说懂,不妨叫他们表演最基本的内外圈刀,剌[标]刀.但我可以负责任讲,没有,因为走马都不懂,何来刀.
讲回棍.岭南拳术,棍有很重耍地位.[北方不是].
下继续.
这有原因,1是材料,北方没有好的硬木.但有白蜡杆.2战争多,枪更具威力,[但分大枪和花枪].岭南一带有来自西南的硬木,藤等,而这些材料,经过桐油处理,非常坚硬不易变形.用于日常,不露眼.3受 俞大猷影响.俞大猷1503-1580,明朝战将,福健人.棍法非常好,少林寺当时也派人跟他习棍.
岭南拳术,棍有三种.单头棍[鼠尾棍]双头棍[齐眉棍]双夹单[两者之间].为什么北方没有这些特点?原因是使棍有威力,跟桥手有直接关系,而枪主要跟身形配合,对桥手要求不高.而 单头棍正是桥手纯熟后的最佳兵器.贡杆原理,经过长时间苦练,配合棍长丈二,无论单对一,或单对多,非常有 利,能保持距离,看清对手.岭南有云,'棍怕老郎'言出有因.经过长期练习,力量使用自如,经验老到,一棍 在手,在如一夫当关.以前舞狮,各人携带兵器,必有两条单头棍压阵尾.
咏春单头棍,单然用拳术力量方法为基础,即桥力,手力,打击力.[千万不要尽信什么力从地起,六合,,,,等一大堆,咏春拳手脚发力独立,最少要求.各位可以试试,坐在椅上 ,一手两指轻轻拿块板,或溥砖,另一手把它打断.如果你发不出力,那就不是咏春拳的基本力.叶问当年在大角 咀一间茶室跟蔡李佛何秋讲数,就是坐着把手肘放在台上,拳头对着何秋说,一动就一拳打死你]
言归正转.单头棍威力特点,1为圈.圈以带有震荡力[搏斗,力为主,招为咐,无力一切不须讲]为主,控棍尖走圈附带震荡有如多点[有如花,所以在起梅花之称]这时,站在棍前的人,会感到眼花.圈在兵器接触时,可圈走对方兵器或带偏方向.这是最难练好的动作和力量. 四十二年,我自已这方面都不满意.
2,点.点的力量也要求很高.首先得点得准,有力.下续
点棍为棍法攻击重点使用之一,打脚,打手,打兵器.打脚用于阻击对手走动.试想每次走位,总是脚先出,如果 每次伸脚,都备棍封,如何走?手执兵器,棍就直接点打手.打兵器,长期练圈点,有震荡力能直接震荡对方拿兵 器的虎口,重者,虎口破裂.点棍包括压,压着对方长兵器.或者对手拿个单刀藤碟,你如何对付?点压.人们表 演单头棍,圈起梅花,点打碗底,更好者,点打枧核.这就足够表现功夫了.
3挑,点挑经常相互使用.挑棍打下巴,打手,打会阴.挑兵器.圈点挑,这是最基本经常练习,什至 终身.
4拦,拦棍带有扫.六点半棍有近180度水平拦棍,直拦,顺拦,高低拦,对方近身后拦等.
5割,割棍一般带着走马转变角度使用,打击对手高低进攻,拦割长短兵器,马步.
6标,标即剌.故名思意.剌向对方.看似简单,实为高难度.直,这个直带劲,劲到棍尖,不摆动.标棍不轻易 用,不随便用,棍出自己露空,非常危险.绝不是视频那些大师,不停地标,更不是象机械操走来走去,空位百出 ,棍尖大摆动,一看就假.
7半点漏棍,下续
漏棍为每家长短棍法必有的技术，也是中国武术特式。持棍面对敌人，这时有人从身后杀到，如何？最快当然是棍 尾漏打。
六点半棍之漏，包括反夺棍，对手迫近，漏棍转手，手脚并用，寸棍必争。棍头当作棍尾用。
整套棍法严密全面[其他门派易然]分别在于力量技巧运用。中国拳术，冷兵器，最高追求。是力的最完美最高威力的结合，是我们先人的最具知慧的 表现，世界独一无二。单头棍和长剑，一静一动，最具代表。
咏春拳选择一棍一刀为兵器，是深经熟滤。刀可快速杀人。棍可全面应对，拳脚上梅花桩。
练习单头棍，圈。棍尖须挂物，以前乡下，圈桶。桶不用绳，用竹勾，挑着竹勾圈到桶转[我还做不到，所以不满意自己]。
直棍，标。以龙形枪作为练习马步，标棍。直棍难在不能摆动，力到棍尖。咏春棍握一臂之长，棍尾不外露，丈二 长，单是拿起己不容易。今时的二米六棍，原是双夹单，并非单头棍。丈二正好运用贡杆原理，发挥力到棍尖。三 种棍，各种用力方式完全不同，马步走位不同，不可混为一谈。

这个就是从双头棍改成的刺刀术，镜头正中的人就动作纯正，枪身合一，其他就不成了。
六，七十年代的中国刺杀术，把伏枪，拦枪，漏枪，刺，挑运用得非常好。所以我总有一短棍放在车上，以备所需 ，因我专门研究过刺杀。
双头棍在岭南拳术中除咏春外，几呼都有，这里不讨论。
双夹单，以蔡李佛的最具代表。
咏春六点半棍练习，有三点chi棍,割,拦,挑,打上,中,下.并且有刀对棍对练.
古劳的,我于1960年代尾,在九龙见过冯生,冯珠,想来他们在的话,也有70多80.
广洲的,没有,
寸劲大师非常假,推人当寸劲,如果人正面站着,在上身以60度角推,很容易往后跌,任何人都可以做寸劲大师 .
黎式也是,打醉汉视频,用的是柔道转身摔.在搏斗中,露背最危险,只有曰本人那样笨才有,如果黎师傅当时走 进对方右边,用脚一打对方脚跟,对方马上坐在地上,又或者用你们的所谓外廉手右手扣对方右手胍门,左手扣他 曲池,这样就完全可控制他,如果他再反抗,一拍他手就脱臼.下次有机会试试.
至于德国那位,你的双手胸前拿棍,樱枪可以,单头棍这样重,标不出.我在法国,相隔不远.
1960年代,九龙公园,郭运平我们相遇过,
又可能得罪人,只是简单回应一下所见.
棍大至如此.有机会可以谈淡拳,椿.

[MOSHE]

六点半棍


我这里是大白天，很热。我的小白电脑，被偷，现在的有点慢。还有，楼上，请保持论坛平等，不要 用称呼。
下面介绍，因而会涉及一些人，如有得罪，请原谅，绝无恶意，纯讨论，并留给新一代继而成传，发展。希望不要 单单为了赚钱而误导下一代，愧对祖先。
1，为什么咏春拳会在云云岭南武术兵器里，只选一长一短的单头棍和双短刀呢？
2，要了解兵器使用特性，原理。因为长度，重量都有严格定义，它们主要涉及力量的表现和场合应用 。
3，兵器使用力量是拳术力量的伸然，它不会超出本身拳术的发力原则。
上述原因，不会误入正宗不正宗之争。我受现代教育，讲求逻辑，追求历史文化关系，分辨传说，调查，例证，说 出不是之处，必有解释。
咏春拳是反清组织用于追杀叛徙的'护法拳'.她属于组织而不是个人.所以,没有拜师,没有师徙关系,只有传 人.不开神位拜祖师,不拜神.只有烧黄纸斩鸡头发毒誓.
棍.刀是五梅选的.棍来自至善.刀来自苗x.

图中是双刀原形,而咏春刀因为运用特性原因,改短很多,但保留了尖,护手,扣反兵器叉.而不是今日所见的开 山刀形.
咏春刀用,剌,斩,圈,拍,扣,反汤[音],捆,耕方式运用,脚法,马走位配合特大力量,而绝不是人们今天视频看到那种空位百出,没有步法,没在力量 的所谓咏春刀.如果这些人说懂,不妨叫他们表演最基本的内外圈刀,剌[标]刀.但我可以负责任讲,没有,因为走马都不懂,何来刀.
讲回棍.岭南拳术,棍有很重耍地位.[北方不是].
下继续.
这有原因,1是材料,北方没有好的硬木.但有白蜡杆.2战争多,枪更具威力,[但分大枪和花枪].岭南一带有来自西南的硬木,藤等,而这些材料,经过桐油处理,非常坚硬不易变形.用于日常,不露眼.3受 俞大猷影响.俞大猷1503-1580,明朝战将,福健人.棍法非常好,少林寺当时也派人跟他习棍.
岭南拳术,棍有三种.单头棍[鼠尾棍]双头棍[齐眉棍]双夹单[两者之间].为什么北方没有这些特点?原因是使棍有威力,跟桥手有直接关系,而枪主要跟身形配合,对桥手要求不高.而 单头棍正是桥手纯熟后的最佳兵器.贡杆原理,经过长时间苦练,配合棍长丈二,无论单对一,或单对多,非常有 利,能保持距离,看清对手.岭南有云,'棍怕老郎'言出有因.经过长期练习,力量使用自如,经验老到,一棍 在手,在如一夫当关.以前舞狮,各人携带兵器,必有两条单头棍压阵尾.
咏春单头棍,单然用拳术力量方法为基础,即桥力,手力,打击力.[千万不要尽信什么力从地起,六合,,,,等一大堆,咏春拳手脚发力独立,最少要求.各位可以试试,坐在椅上 ,一手两指轻轻拿块板,或溥砖,另一手把它打断.如果你发不出力,那就不是咏春拳的基本力.叶问当年在大角 咀一间茶室跟蔡李佛何秋讲数,就是坐着把手肘放在台上,拳头对着何秋说,一动就一拳打死你]
言归正转.单头棍威力特点,1为圈.圈以带有震荡力[搏斗,力为主,招为咐,无力一切不须讲]为主,控棍尖走圈附带震荡有如多点[有如花,所以在起梅花之称]这时,站在棍前的人,会感到眼花.圈在兵器接触时,可圈走对方兵器或带偏方向.这是最难练好的动作和力量. 四十二年,我自已这方面都不满意.
2,点.点的力量也要求很高.首先得点得准,有力.下续
点棍为棍法攻击重点使用之一,打脚,打手,打兵器.打脚用于阻击对手走动.试想每次走位,总是脚先出,如果 每次伸脚,都备棍封,如何走?手执兵器,棍就直接点打手.打兵器,长期练圈点,有震荡力能直接震荡对方拿兵 器的虎口,重者,虎口破裂.点棍包括压,压着对方长兵器.或者对手拿个单刀藤碟,你如何对付?点压.人们表 演单头棍,圈起梅花,点打碗底,更好者,点打枧核.这就足够表现功夫了.
3挑,点挑经常相互使用.挑棍打下巴,打手,打会阴.挑兵器.圈点挑,这是最基本经常练习,什至 终身.
4拦,拦棍带有扫.六点半棍有近180度水平拦棍,直拦,顺拦,高低拦,对方近身后拦等.
5割,割棍一般带着走马转变角度使用,打击对手高低进攻,拦割长短兵器,马步.
6标,标即剌.故名思意.剌向对方.看似简单,实为高难度.直,这个直带劲,劲到棍尖,不摆动.标棍不轻易 用,不随便用,棍出自己露空,非常危险.绝不是视频那些大师,不停地标,更不是象机械操走来走去,空位百出 ,棍尖大摆动,一看就假.
7半点漏棍,下续
漏棍为每家长短棍法必有的技术，也是中国武术特式。持棍面对敌人，这时有人从身后杀到，如何？最快当然是棍 尾漏打。
六点半棍之漏，包括反夺棍，对手迫近，漏棍转手，手脚并用，寸棍必争。棍头当作棍尾用。
整套棍法严密全面[其他门派易然]分别在于力量技巧运用。中国拳术，冷兵器，最高追求。是力的最完美最高威力的结合，是我们先人的最具知慧的 表现，世界独一无二。单头棍和长剑，一静一动，最具代表。
咏春拳选择一棍一刀为兵器，是深经熟滤。刀可快速杀人。棍可全面应对，拳脚上梅花桩。
练习单头棍，圈。棍尖须挂物，以前乡下，圈桶。桶不用绳，用竹勾，挑着竹勾圈到桶转[我还做不到，所以不满意自己]。
直棍，标。以龙形枪作为练习马步，标棍。直棍难在不能摆动，力到棍尖。咏春棍握一臂之长，棍尾不外露，丈二 长，单是拿起己不容易。今时的二米六棍，原是双夹单，并非单头棍。

[MOSHE]

丈二正好运用贡杆原理，发挥力到棍尖。三种棍，各种用力方式完全不同，马步走位不同，不可混为 一谈。

这个就是从双头棍改成的刺刀术，镜头正中的人就动作纯正，枪身合一，其他就不成了。
六，七十年代的中国刺杀术，把伏枪，拦枪，漏枪，刺，挑运用得非常好。所以我总有一短棍放在车上，以备所需 ，因我专门研究过刺杀。
双头棍在岭南拳术中除咏春外，几呼都有，这里不讨论。
双夹单，以蔡李佛的最具代表。
咏春六点半棍练习，有三点chi棍,割,拦,挑,打上,中,下.并且有刀对棍对练.
古劳的,我于1960年代尾,在九龙见过冯生,冯珠,想来他们在的话,也有70多80.
广洲的,没有,
寸劲大师非常假,推人当寸劲,如果人正面站着,在上身以60度角推,很容易往后跌,任何人都可以做寸劲大师 .
黎式也是,打醉汉视频,用的是柔道转身摔.在搏斗中,露背最危险,只有曰本人那样笨才有,如果黎师傅当时走 进对方右边,用脚一打对方脚跟,对方马上坐在地上,又或者用你们的所谓外廉手右手扣对方右手胍门,左手扣他 曲池,这样就完全可控制他,如果他再反抗,一拍他手就脱臼.下次有机会试试.
至于德国那位,你的双手胸前拿棍,樱枪可以,单头棍这样重,标不出.我在法国,相隔不远.
1960年代,九龙公园,郭运平我们相遇过,
又可能得罪人,只是简单回应一下所见.
棍大至如此.有机会可以谈淡拳,椿.

[MOSHE]

Hello,

you have to know that ng chan is perfoming somethimg not too much seriously (like for the videos of yip man)
i have been practising with him ,and that was quite different,

regards

[MOSHE]

link to a website of ki ping pun
http://www.wingchunkyn.com/bbs/index.php

[talisker]

你怎么样？
是你吗？
鲁

[MOSHE]

the post is from ki ping pun ,im his student

[chusauli]

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not really- but then we all have our own perceptions.

joy chaudhuri



Not much similar to HKM, HKM uses his body...

[kung fu fighter]

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not really- but then we all have our own perceptions.

joy chaudhuri

I was referring to how they both keep their arms compact, but you're right the power generation is definately different.

[MOSHE]

[言永]春拳为一门非常独特的人体徙手和冷兵器搏斗技术，一直以来，并没有真正公开传授，这基于历史原因和祖训誓言 。吾师伍灿。 生前已有意公开，维受限于誓言，只能授于传人。我不是传人，只是受恩于师，居于馆里，观恩师练习，侧面学到 拳技。今天能公开的尽量公开而不受祖训誓言所限，见证吾师生前心意。并希望各师兄弟体量师父之难处，不是不 教，而是誓言所限。当然，咏春拳的正统精神，技术和起源，应以传人为准，望我各学员日后无须争 议。 小谂头；寻桥，标指，为咏春拳法度，手法，马步身形的基础，从简单到整体有系统地完善。正确与否，应从三套 拳为衡量标准，动作状态以几何原理为主，肌肉收缩受控原理为力量的来源，不存在神秘性，也没有气功之言，呼 吸处在自然中。 小谂头 ，尊定了咏春拳的所有基本手法，法度，达成大脑控制肌肉收缩，身形，马，眼精注视，平衡等等之 练习。 寻桥 ，把搏击中的马走位，几何角度转换，手脚法配合使用基础，特别是对手在数倍于已时的几何角度交错使用的系统 综合练习。 标指， 把前段练习功能集中并全方位使用，利用精确力量，角度，身形，步法攻击对手，实现快速解决对手的目的。记住 梁壁所讲，与人搏击，出手不过三，即每次打斗不须多过三招，解决对手，这是咏春拳基本要求。 木人椿，综合了手法，马步，走位，脚法，目视，身体各部的统一与单独，力量的不同方向使用和加强各动作运动 限制内的实践性练习，使用，利用自己的力量反弹而把木人椿变活来练习，打击力量越大，反弹越大原理而实现力 量增长和有效控制为目的。 梅花步脚法，基础性的 绑脚，侄脚，摊脚，内外拍脚，拦脚，正脚，横脚，切脚，膝击，各种散式连环脚法，生死八脚，死里求生八脚， 连环八脚。必须首先把脚练松才能实现，学过的同学，应知其威力。 梅花桩，基本练习，以七枝为基础，马步基础非常重要，配合梅花步脚法练习。 六点半棍，各同学可同时练习，以圈，点，挑，为基础，一动作一动作练习。 八斩刀，可先练，单双手圈刀，标刀，斩刀作基础。 打胍，穴位。较特殊，不公开。 自梁赞起-----梁壁----叶问------ 郭富-----？-？，？ 伍灿------梁厚------梁。。。。。。。以上为各代传人。 自梁赞后，常见的咏春拳为陈华顺咏春拳，叶问公开的也是这部分，不公开是梁壁部分。 咏春拳作为中国文化一部分，在全世界独一无二的中国武术中的一份子，希望各同学珍惜学习，而不 致于她失传。

[MOSHE]

Xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

[Hendrik]

link to a website of ki ping pun
http://www.wingchunkyn.com/bbs/index.php


I found this in the web

咏春绝技，源自少林。招无虎鹤，法无五行。


are you serious on these saying stuffs?

[Hendrik]

My dad always mentions that when you Chi Sao with Ng Chan, the movements are very smooth, soft, and controlling, and can easily and unexpectedly upset your balance.

On the contrary, some Wing Chun Sifu's like Chu Shong Tin (my dad learned from him briefly before going to Ng Chan) are still fairly rigid even though they also promote softness while others are just simply hit happy.


My dad still says that to this day, not many Wing Chun practitioners, including himself, have that same soft controlling movement like Ng Chan. Perhaps it's one of those skills that was passed to Ng Chan from Yip Man when they lived together.


Regards,
Raymond


It is because of skill or is it because Ng Chan has a different type of training platform or structure compare with others?

[MOSHE]

Ng chan had everything different comparing to others.

When yip man was doing shi sao with others ,he was just playing.

But by the time he was living with ng chan ,he gave to him a very different structure of movements ,and a very close watching to what he was perfoming in order to catch the very original wing chun.

Plus ,ki ping pun explained to me that shi sao is to be used only at the first stage of the learning of wing chun .
The beginner will be used to certains movements and motions
after that ,very rare. Only once a week at best

but yip man kept others students busy with this , and let them free to practise shi sao for most of their training time

regards

[WC1277]

Ng chan had everything different comparing to others.

When yip man was doing shi sao with others ,he was just playing.

But by the time he was living with ng chan ,he gave to him a very different structure of movements ,and a very close watching to what he was perfoming in order to catch the very original wing chun.

Plus ,ki ping pun explained to me that shi sao is to be used only at the first stage of the learning of wing chun .
The beginner will be used to certains movements and motions
after that ,very rare. Only once a week at best

but yip man kept others students busy with this , and let them free to practise shi sao for most of their training time

regards

You are very ignorant my friend and if that's what ki ping pun told you then he is a liar.

[MOSHE]

I forgot that you were there !!!

[WC1277]

I forgot that you were there !!!

No, you are ignorant because you have a closed mind regardless of language barrier. Please tell me what you do outside of Chi Sao to develop your skill other than sparring? Remember though anytime you touch hands it's Chi Sao in some form. So please enlighten all of us?

[MOSHE]

first read a translation of the post above in chinese
after i will add on it

[WC1277]

first read a translation of the post above in chinese
after i will add on it

Why don't you Google translate it for all of us? I don't have time to do your work for you

[Vajramusti]

On Moshe's posts re Ng Chan.

Mpshe - I deliberately did not critique the first video on Ng Chan. I merely pointed out
to kung fu fighter that his perception of similarities to Ho Kam Ming were not mine.

But now you have gone on to generalizing about others and supposedly that Ip man just deliberately let others go on with chi sao. A presumptuous and amazing claim.

BTW in the Ng Chan chi sao clip- when he came down from bong to tan in a defensive movement he was hand chasing, IMO. You are welcome to a contrary opinion.

joy chaudhuri

[Hendrik]

Raymond,

where are you located? Hungary?

[WC1277]

Alright moshe,

Just wasted 15 minutes of my life to translate that Chinese to find it's complete nonsense. We're all waiting for your excellent explanation now?

[Vajramusti]

I think it's ignorant for others to not have an open mind about Ng Chan system.

Best regards,
Raymond
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Raymond- I am all ears-why not explain some unique aspects of Ng Chan's approach to wing chun.
I don't think that folks so far have been close minded- just differing when comparisons are made to some others's wing chun.

BTW several other people stayed with Ip Man.

joy chaudhuri

[MOSHE]

The reason the wing chun of ng chan is unique ,is very simple.

Wing chun is not a system with lineage like any other style

there is no family and no reference to any sifu publicly

why

the only purpose for wu mei and wing chun ,was to build a art to kill any kind of opponent ,to serve the cause of the revolt against the mandshous.

So they didnt want anything else ,then to train killers.

Perhaps you can start to understand that this women, wing chun who was nothing else than a killer ,wasnt practising the kind of wing chun that you find anywhere.

After that, just one or two persons was elected to receive this package of technics and had to swear

not to speak ,
not to show
or to make any reference to their background.

Thats the reason why yip man elected only two persons ;
kor fu in china and later ng chan in honk kong
(when somebody feels the need to train a second one many years after ,its because perhaps something is not complete with the first one)


after the elected person had made the ceremony of the oath, his master has finished his mission and will not interfere anymore with his successor


this is why ,even others students of yip man were not even conscious of that.
Yip man ,like leun chan,just taught them various versions of the wing chun of shan wa son

regards

see the post of my sifu to understand why we can speak about that

[WC1277]

The reason the wing chun of ng chan is unique ,is very simple.

Wing chun is not a system with lineage like any other style

there is no family and no reference to any sifu publicly

why

the only purpose for wu mei and wing chun ,was to build a art to kill any kind of opponent ,to serve the cause of the revolt against the mandshous.

So they didnt want anything else ,then to train killers.

Perhaps you can start to understand that this women, wing chun who was nothing else than a killer ,wasnt practising the kind of wing chun that you find anywhere.

After that, just one or two persons was elected to receive this package of technics and had to swear

not to speak ,
not to show
or to make any reference to their background.

Thats the reason why yip man elected only two persons ;
kor fu in china and later ng chan in honk kong
(when somebody feels the need to train a second one many years after ,its because perhaps something is not complete with the first one)


after the elected person had made the ceremony of the oath, his master has finished his mission and will not interfere anymore with his successor


this is why ,even others students of yip man were not even conscious of that.
Yip man ,like leun chan,just taught them various versions of the wing chun of shan wa son

regards

see the post of my sifu to understand why we can speak about that

Dude, I'm sorry that you were led to believe that, I really am. I don't want to ruin your passion for your lineage, so I'll just say this. The story is completely fabricated for self serving purposes, period.

[MOSHE]

No problem for me.
The fact is that i just experimented what im reporting
i opened a window ,you take or not,i dont care

regards

[GlennR]

No problem for me.
The fact is that i just experimented what im reporting
i opened a window ,you take or not,i dont care

regards


Can you keep it closed

[WC1277]

No problem for me.
The fact is that i just experimented what im reporting
i opened a window ,you take or not,i dont care

regards

You experimented?..............you've disrespected almost every single person either on this forum or viewing this forum and honestly I just feel bad for your blindness, goodbye

[LoneTiger108]

When yip man was doing shi sao with others ,he was just playing.

FWIW I totally agree with that statement, especially if we're talking of his HK days. I have heard similar comments.


Plus ,ki ping pun explained to me that shi sao is to be used only at the first stage of the learning of wing chun

Again, this makes total sense to me.


The beginner will be used to certains movements and motions after that ,very rare. Only once a week at best

Dunno about the once a week thing, but this too was talked about with my own Sifu. He is of the understanding that what Ip Man presented to te western world was a beginning, and something that was meant to be added to. Unfortunately this 'update' didn't happen because Ip Man died.


but yip man kept others students busy with this , and let them free to practise shi sao for most of their training time

I know that Ip Mans HK students were left to be 'free' and discover their own strengths and weknesses, but this is because he was teaching them individually and there weren't many people he taught that were interested in teaching for him, or the Wing Chun name during his lifetime. That all kinda exploded once he died.

I mean no offence to anyone here either, as I know we all look at what we have as 'special' and some here have an active life teaching for money and its a career choice for them. I'm simply saying that there are still many mysteries about Wing Chun that are unsolved, and to shoot the messenger is just as silly as the messenger being a bit offensive in delivering his message!! :(

I personally would be very interested to hear more about Ng Chan or any direct student of Ip Man for that matter, because there are far too few left alive today and we need to keep a bit more of an open mind. Just saying...

[LoneTiger108]

The story is completely fabricated for self serving purposes, period.

And you KNOW this 'how' exactly??

What story have you been told? :D

[Tom Kagan]

On the contrary, some Wing Chun Sifu's like Chu Shong Tin (my dad learned from him briefly before going to Ng Chan) are still fairly rigid even though they also promote softness while others are just simply hit happy. My dad still says that to this day, not many Wing Chun practitioners, including himself, have that same soft controlling movement like Ng Chan.

You are confusing "circular" with "soft" and "angular" with "rigid".

I can say firsthand that Tso Shong Tin is not rigid; he is angular. I am not currently judging whether that is better than circular, but merely pointing out there is a distinction you, and perhaps your dad too, are missing.

[WC1277]

And you KNOW this 'how' exactly??

What story have you been told? :D

Spencer, there are no secret oaths that made Ip man only train two people the true "killer" system of wing chun! Even if there was at one point, Ip man didn't adhere to it, I can guarantee you that......stop searching for the mystical in wing chun, please....

[MOSHE]

there is no mystical things in wing chun

tell me something

if you give your all package of technics to a women ,will she be able to win a real fight against a man ?

the answer is NOOOO at 1000 percent

and this worth for most of the students of yip man ,because he taught them something much more closer to the shan wah son system rather than leung bik

and leung did the same thing at his time

and because what you are practising is not working for women ,it could not be the original system,which one has been conceived by two women and for women used

i hope that some people will be able to be objective about that, and will understand why in this forum ,some are thinking that something is missing in their system , and than need to add technics from others styles ,or to train fighting with gloves etc ...

this is a no sense !!!

[WC1277]

there is no mystical things in wing chun

tell me something

if you give your all package of technics to a women ,will she be able to win a real fight against a man ?

the answer is NOOOO at 1000 percent

and this worth for most of the students of yip man ,because he taught them something much more closer to the shan wah son system rather than leung bik

and leung did the same thing at his time

and because what you are practising is not working for women ,it could not be the original system,which one has been conceived by two women and for women used

i hope that some people will be able to be objective about that, and will understand why in this forum ,some are thinking that something is missing in their system , and than need to add technics from others styles ,or to train fighting with gloves etc ...

this is a no sense !!!

You're an idiot moshe!

I know a few women who learned a non-ng Chan system that would run circles around you and your insecure teacher...

[MOSHE]

certainly you are missing the point !

the terms #ignorant# or #idiot# that you are using ,resume your poor potential of argumentation

[WC1277]

certainly you are missing the point !

the terms #ignorant# or #idiot# that you are using ,resume your poor potential of argumentation

No, you're not worth my time to articulate to you why you're wrong. You going to continue on being ignorant and insulting regardless

[jesper]

No, you're not worth my time to articulate to you why you're wrong. You going to continue on being ignorant and insulting regardless

Dont ever discuss with an idiot, they will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience

[WC1277]

Dont ever discuss with an idiot, they will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience

Good point, thanks

[Muteki]

You are confusing "circular" with "soft" and "angular" with "rigid".

I can say firsthand that Tso Shong Tin is not rigid; he is angular. I am not currently judging whether that is better than circular, but merely pointing out there is a distinction you, and perhaps your dad too, are missing.

I'm talking about rigid as in when the moment the contact is made. Ng Chan, on the other hand, is very soft, controlling, and absorbing the instant the contact is made, and the balance is upset without hitting you. My dad didn't get that same feeling from TST. No doubt that TST is very good structure-wise (circular and angular), my dad still praises him for that, especially his SLT is very detailed and the amount of training he put his students through (at least 6 months of SLT).

I don't think my dad misunderstood any of the Wing Chun concepts, he had just as much experience as those who claimed they had 40 years of WC in this forum and tested his WC against other schools in his younger days! No offense and I don't mean to declare other schools suck or anything. I'm just reiterate what his experience was when comparing TST and Ng Chan. :)

Anyway, this thread has become school bashing thread, I don't wish to continue to discuss in this thread anymore. I can see that Mosh would like to promote a bit more about Ng Chan, but I also don't think it's appropriate to start off that harsh. Otherwise, it becomes the classic TWC vs. the non-TWC ages ago.

[Tom Kagan]

I'm talking about rigid as in when the moment the contact is made. Ng Chan, on the other hand, is very soft, controlling, and absorbing the instant the contact is made, and the balance is upset without hitting you. My dad didn't get that same feeling from TST. No doubt that TST is very good structure-wise (circular and angular), my dad still praises him for that, especially his SLT is very detailed and the amount of training he put his students through (at least 6 months of SLT).

I don't think my dad misunderstood any of the Wing Chun concepts, he had just as much experience as those who claimed they had 40 years of WC in this forum and tested his WC against other schools in his younger days! No offense and I don't mean to declare other schools suck or anything. I'm just reiterate what his experience was when comparing TST and Ng Chan. :)

No offense either, but either you are misunderstanding your dad, he is miscommunicating something to you, or he is incorrect.

Your first paragraph proves my point. Even if you don't yield, you are doing the exact same thing you are attributing to Ng Chan: controling and absorbing. You're just doing it differently. Don't like my use of "angular" or not "circular"? Fine, pick another word. But if you are "rigid", your hands are dead; you cannot react.

Tsu Shong Tin can do it as you ascribe: by yielding. He just prefers not to. Maybe he's too lazy to move. ;)

[Vajramusti]

Trubblman- that was poor judgement and in very bad taste IMO.

joy chaudhuri

[LoneTiger108]

Spencer, there are no secret oaths that made Ip man only train two people the true "killer" system of wing chun! Even if there was at one point, Ip man didn't adhere to it, I can guarantee you that......stop searching for the mystical in wing chun, please....

I'm not searching for anything mystical. My Sifu blew all that cr4p away when I first met him in 1994! :D

And I don't recall agreeing with that part of Moshe's post either.

I, for one, have been taken into the family in a similar 'oath' type manner and have made 100s cups of tea for my Sifu too, not just one! ;) Nothing to do with killing though, just a cultural path for those who are chosen fme...

[MOSHE]

lonetiger

I personally would be very interested to hear more about Ng Chan or any direct student of Ip Man for that matter, because there are far too few left alive today and we need to keep a bit more of an open mind. Just saying...[/QUOTE]

once ,i dont have the date in mind,yip man was very upset against all his students (i know the reason ,but its better not to tell why, let say that they just interefered in his private life)
he didnt appreciate and didnt want anymore to teach them.

so he asked ng chan to move all his personals things to a new location.

after a while the students had regrets about what happened and went to apologize,and asked him to resume their learning .
he accepted ,but then ng chan was living with him ,and yip man asked him to be in charge of the teaching for few years

[k gledhill]

lonetiger

I personally would be very interested to hear more about Ng Chan or any direct student of Ip Man for that matter, because there are far too few left alive today and we need to keep a bit more of an open mind. Just saying...

once ,i dont have the date in mind,yip man was very upset against all his students (i know the reason ,but its better not to tell why, let say that they just interefered in his private life)
he didnt appreciate and didnt want anymore to teach them.

so he asked ng chan to move all his personals things to a new location.

after a while the students had regrets about what happened and went to apologize,and asked him to resume their learning .
he accepted ,but then ng chan was living with him ,and yip man asked him to be in charge of the teaching for few years[/QUOTE]

What years is ng chan meant to teach...?

[MOSHE]

i will ask to my sifu

[Vajramusti]

Moshe- I am on the run -an additional reason for being brief.

1. Before his retirement there was a group whose leader tried to manage an aspect of Ip man's life.


2. Understandable if Ng Chan helped him move.

3. The above has zilch to do with Ip man teaching Ng Chan the real goods.

4. Ng Chans forms in the videos shows wing chun- nothing exclusive.

5. You are passing on a broken telephone set of messages.

6. Why not enjoy your wing chun rather than making exaggerated and distorted
and un-necessary claims on this list that reflect on Ip Man;s students and to some extent on Ip man.

joy chaudhuri

[MOSHE]

What years is ng chan meant to teach...?[/QUOTE]

HE STARTED TO ASSIST YIP MAN IN 1956,WHEN THEY MOVED TO THE DISTRICT OF YU MA TI

[Vajramusti]

What years is ng chan meant to teach...?

HE STARTED TO ASSIST YIP MAN IN 1956,WHEN THEY MOVED TO THE DISTRICT OF YU MA TI[/QUOTE]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ip Man had public group classes and private classes in 1956.

No one but he himself did the one on one private instruction.

joy chaudhuri

[MOSHE]

Only one name for each movement of wing chun
but so much difference from one sifu to another one

strange !!!

So far you go from the original, how much more you will have tu use muscles strength

when wing chun built the system,she gave one name for one specific movement with a very precise location, and not for something different

thats the original

wing chun is just as precise as geometry

1cm away , and it is not anymore working

so why mister x is doing so different from you ?

[trubblman]

Only one name for each movement of wing chun
but so much difference from one sifu to another one

strange !!!

So far you go from the original, how much more you will have tu use muscles strength

when wing chun built the system,she gave one name for one specific movement with a very precise location, and not for something different

thats the original

wing chun is just as precise as geometry

1cm away , and it is not anymore working

so why mister x is doing so different from you ?

Dont get what you are saying - is this supposed to be sarcasm?

[Vajramusti]

Could be a language problem. Not clear exactly who he is addressing.

Further, I don't think that Yim Wing Chun,if she was a real person had a a name for each and every movement.
Agree that one should strive for precision in developing movements in wing chun training.

joy chaudhuri

[k gledhill]

Only one name for each movement of wing chun
but so much difference from one sifu to another one

strange !!!

So far you go from the original, how much more you will have tu use muscles strength

when wing chun built the system,she gave one name for one specific movement with a very precise location, and not for something different

thats the original

wing chun is just as precise as geometry

1cm away , and it is not anymore working

so why mister x is doing so different from you ?

I agree, a cm either way and your in trouble. knowing the geometry is key to a functional 'fighting' system. You dont need geometry in sticking overturning c r a p.
There are certain key actions being discussed on another thread that gives the reasons for so many variations.

[MOSHE]

dont get what you are saying - is this supposed to be sarcasm?

no

trying to prove what i was writing above,about original and sha wah son
wing chun

[Tom Kagan]

thats the original

wing chun is just as precise as geometry

1cm away , and it is not anymore working


If your movements are 1 cm away from a break down, your kung fu sucks.

[k gledhill]

If your movements are 1 cm away from a break down, your kung fu sucks.


Wrong, if your kung fu isnt capable of fighting to this level of position then your in trouble. Why do you think hand chasing is such a cardinal sin in our centerline system ?

[CFT]

Wrong, if your kung fu isnt capable of fighting to this level of position then your in trouble. Why do you think hand chasing is such a cardinal sin in our centerline system ?Haven't you previously poo-pooed the idea of a 47.5-degree tan sao, etc.

Now you have to be 'inch perfect'? In a fight? Really? When you have to deal with incoming force at such a speed you don't even have time to think but can still be accurate to a centimetre?

[k gledhill]

Haven't you previously poo-pooed the idea of a 47.5-degree tan sao, etc.

Now you have to be 'inch perfect'? In a fight? Really? When you have to deal with incoming force at such a speed you don't even have time to think but can still be accurate to a centimetre?

Not pooing it , jokingly implying more precision..
Thats the whole point you just hit on.
Can you be this precise at speed with force, timing, etc.

mindlessly

The centerline concept and our arms relationship to it as we intersect the line with each rotation, attacking.

We use ballistic force in actions 'along' the line to open the line up 'without' leaving it ourselves.

Its genius .

The only limit is the human ability to not make mistakes, ergo the system is seen as a self correcting of mistakes we make when facing this idea ourselves.

Why Chi-sao is a compliant drill , to improve our mistakes, speed up mindless reactions to face, chase, deal with interceptions AND attack in every action...

Easy ?:D

Everyone I have shown this idea too all agree...all have said the same thing when shown ...

" Why havent I ever had this method explained before ? "

[Tom Kagan]

Wrong, if your kung fu isnt capable of fighting to this level of position then your in trouble. Why do you think hand chasing is such a cardinal sin in our centerline system ?

What about fighting to your level of strawman? Apparently, that isn't a cardinal sin in your system.

[CFT]

Not pooing it , jokingly implying more precision..
Thats the whole point you just hit on.
Can you be this precise at speed with force, timing, etc.What is theoretically a flaw (1 cm) is not necessarily one that can be capitalized upon by someone else when there is a modicum of reality at play.

[k gledhill]

What about fighting to your level of strawman? Apparently, that isn't a cardinal sin in your system.

Only if you dont understand...you dont, can your ego take that ?

[k gledhill]

What is theoretically a flaw (1 cm) is not necessarily one that can be capitalized upon by someone else when there is a modicum of reality at play.

Thats the reality, how close can we get to that perfection ?

Thats the idea...

[MOSHE]

消沉中期（1954-1962年）
不幸叶师开始再次吸食鸦片，继续战前时期的嗜好，并与有共同嗜好的上海女子相好。自此时开始，叶问开始无心 教授，梁相和骆耀等时常好言相劝，最终(1955年)导致徐尚田以书面劝说，当时的主要弟子除了伍灿之外， 都在信中签署联名。
当时的梁相、骆耀、徐尚田和叶步青一起在上海街叶步青家中学至木人桩中段。叶步青在香港是第一个学习木人桩 者。在其家安装的木人桩亦是问公来港所接触的第一台木桩。
叶问看到书信后，一言不发，并找到伍灿帮助，即日迁移到上海女子位于李郑屋邨的住处，且生了一名儿子叶少华 。
梁相身为大师兄，叶师认为徐尚田上书一事，必是梁君计策。梁于是离港到澳门工作一年，事件平定后再回来解释 。
其他弟子都来交心并愿意追随终身，全套108式桩法和八斩刀法皆在此时传出。李小龙和梁绍鸿是此处的早期学 生，伍灿为助教，邻近巴士职工多人来习武，邹子传于此时加入。由于李郑屋邨住处地方狭窄，并无处可放置木人 桩设备，这时期的学生鲜能接触木桩长棍。60年代，李小龙回港后，欲重金给与问师学习木人桩不 果。
1962年，得悉两名儿子来港，又在一群弟子关怀之下，决心戒掉鸦片烟，并迁到大埔道兴业大厦。
半退休时期（1963年后）
两名正室儿子叶准和叶正于1962年到港，晚间居于父亲教拳处，日间出外工作，当时相处并不和睦。邓生探长 得到师父王柱（梁相大弟子－四虎中的短脚虎）引见执弟子礼，当时观塘警务人员亦有多人学习咏春，这时叶问的 生活较为好转，可是教拳已稍微有心无力。邓生、彭锦发和篮贤等弟子发起成立联谊会，在会中教拳，待经费自给 自足之余，部分与老人家退休生活。
邓生成立体育会
邓生认为咏春拳是值得发扬的实用武术，故倡议组织及规划整理咏春拳的内容，并联络师公梁相及各位师叔公辈会 面，望能成立联谊会。并选择年青有现代教育根基可以代表咏春派的新一辈教练，意图推广与青少年和学生们。因 为利益和辈份的问题，选择谁人主理总教一职，困难重重。

[MOSHE]

叶问宗师(1893--1972) ，在世享寿七十九年。他一生对詠春的发扬，居功至伟。世界上不少詠春界人士及詠春拳术的爱好者，历来发表不 少有关宗师的文章，有探讨技术的、研究历史的、以及纪述宗师一些生活鳞瓜的。为此，借宗师一百周年诞辰之庆 ，编写宗师年谱，以供有关人士日后参考。本年谱主要纪录宗师对詠春一派的相关历史及贡献，而对于他的学业、 职业等则从简处理。此外，宗师一生亲炙门生千累万，绝难一一罗列，当中如有挂漏实非所愿，敬希 海涵为盼。
1893年10月10 (清光绪癸已年九月初五)，宗师生于广东省佛山市，即前广东省南海县佛山镇。是故宗师对其籍贯常书成广东南 海。宗师严亲乃叶霭多、严慈吴瑞，姊弟共计四人。分别为长兄继格、姊允媚(适庞) 、妹允堪(适傅) 及宗师继问。
1899年--1905年(清光绪己亥至乙巳年)，宗师六至十二岁。佛山。宗师随陈华顺公(找钱华)学习詠春拳术。当时陈 华顺公设教在佛山镇桑园大街的叶氏宗祠。因叶氏宗祠正是宗师家族的宗祖祠堂，故宗师有缘随陈华顺公习武。当 时和宗师一起的同修，计有雷汝济、吴仲素、吴小鲁……
1905年宗师十二岁。佛山。陈华顺公仙逝。华公大乐之前，嘱咐吴仲素助宗师完成詠春艺业。稍后，宗师随众 师兄们护送华公灵柩返乡——顺德陈村安葬。
1905年--1907年(清光绪乙已年至丁未年)，宗师十二至十四岁。佛山。宗师谨遵华公遗言，随师兄吴仲素勤修拳艺。 当时吴仲素设馆于普君墟的线香街某处，而在吴馆习武的尚有阮奇山，姚才(姚祺之父) 等。
1908年(清光绪戊申年)，宗师十五岁。香港。宗师得姻亲庞伟庭资助，来港求学，就读于赤柱区，圣士提反 书院，而住在港岛，半山区，坚道某处。
1909年--1913年(清宣统巳酉年至1913年)，宗师十六至二十岁。香港。宗师得同班同学的介绍而认识梁碧，其后 ，宗师再随梁碧深造詠春近四年。
1914年， 香港、日本神户、佛山。宗师得乃兄继格协助，拟远赴日本求学，后因事故未果。
1914年--1937年，宗师廿一至四十四岁。佛山、广州。在这二十多年的岁月里，可简述宗师的生活如下：工作方面：大 致上是从事军、警方面的工作。家庭方面：娶妻张永成为元配夫人，亦佛山望族。其为清光绪戊戌政变中，历史关 键人物，清末大臣张荫垣的后人。子嗣方面：宗师与元配所生有四，按排序为叶学准(叶准) 、学正(叶正) 、雅心(适伍) 、雅媛(适吴) 。这时期宗师除工作外，社交应酬人缘甚好，更喜与武林人士交往，相互研究及切磋武术因而武名大噪。南国武林 同道都知道佛山有叶问。宗师亦不时与詠春同门交换心得，探讨所学。当年叶家有一大花园，空地广阔。在那里经 常见到宗师与同门进行黐手锻炼；而在大厅另一角，置有木人桩一具，宗师时常在那里埋头苦练。其时，常与宗师 一起练拳的同修除阮奇山，姚才外，还有叶仲康、黎协篪、汤继等诸位。
1937年，宗师四十四岁。佛山。日寇南侵，南中国沦陷。
1937年--1945年，宗师四十四至五十二岁。佛山。八年抗战，佛山沦陷，由伪zf管治。宗师素重节义，生活十分艰难 ，家中时有断炊之苦，幸赖宗师好友周清泉不时接济。宗师为报其恩，遂答应收其子周光耀为徒，并 于1941年--1943年间，在永安路联昌花纱行内设教。与周光耀同期学拳的还有郭富、陈志新、吕应、伦佳，周细……以上 诸位，应算是叶问宗师行教以来的第一批门生。上述同门，除陈志新、吕应已身故外，现仍健在者如郭富、伦佳两 位，仍分别在广州，佛山两地教授詠春拳术。
1945年，宗师五十二岁。佛山。中国抗战胜利。
1945年--1949年，宗师五十二至五十六岁。佛山、广州。这时期是宗师工作上最繁忙的日子，就连他一直醉心的詠春功 夫也得暂时放下。唯独在1948年时候，彭南经宗师好友汤继介绍，及自己的苦求下，宗师最终答允在百忙之中 拨冗到上沙众义体育会，对彭南在拳上作过一些指导。
1949年，宗师五十六岁。澳门、香港。大陆解放后，宗师决定经澳门到香港。在澳门逗留期间，宗师得朋友帮 助，旅居于草堆街朋友开设的雀鸟铺达半月。最终离澳低港，开展了宗师人生的一页。
1950年--1953年宗师五十七至六十岁。
1950年七月，经同乡李民介绍，宗师终于在香港开始第一个詠春拳术班，地点在九龙深水埗区大南街的饭店职 工总会。开班初期，仅得梁相、骆耀……等八位，他们全是该会的职工。而于稍后参加的同门，则有除尚田、叶步 青、招允、李恩荣、罗炳、文少雄……后来大家公称这阶段为[前期饭店工会] 。与此同时，宗师还在饭店职工总会位于香港岛上环区的公安分会设教。在该处习拳的，有李荣、余美琼、李银欢 ……
1953年--1954年，宗师六十至六十一岁。当时由于饭店总会的行政架构改选，梁相重选落败。工会理事易人后，宗师发 觉与他们道不同，难相为谋，遂将拳馆硬迁至深水埗区海坛街某处设教。当时投到宗师门下者，相继有黄淳梁、王 乔、黄作、伍灿……其间，宗师有到深水埗区汝洲街的三太子庙作私人教授，从学者有李汉等。
1954年--1955年，宗师六十一至六十二岁。梁相重掌饭店工会行政大权，宗师又将拳馆迁回饭店公会。这时期大家公称 为 [后期饭店公会]。加入这期詠春班的同门有李金成、简华捷、卢文锦、张卓庆、梁绍雄……
1955年--1957年，宗师六十二至六十四岁。这时宗师又迁馆至九龙油麻地区利达街某处设馆。那时投到宗师门下者，计 有李小龙、陈成、张学健、萧煜民、潘炳烈、彭锦发……
1957年--1963年，宗师六十四至六十九岁。在这五年多时间中，宗师设教于深水埗区李郑屋村某处，这时期的从学者， 计有麦普、杨熙、梅逸、何金铭等。同时礼聘宗师作私人教授的同门特别多，分别有：1)在港岛筲箕湾区顺记缸 瓦铺设教，从学者有王伯夷、王荣、杨淙瀚、周乐志、黄国有……2)在九龙尖沙咀区宝勒巷某处设教，从学者有 唐祖志、李伟志、陈德超、谭礼等。
1962年--1963年，宗师六十九至七十岁。宗师将拳馆迁至大埔道六十一号兴业大厦一单位设教，当时到馆从学者有张耀 荣、何联、章静安、陈暖林、陈太炎、郭思恩……而私人教援的地点则在尖沙咀区式华洋服铺，从学者有郑彼德和 在宝勒巷设教时的一班旧生。
1963年--1965年，宗师七十岁至七十二岁。这时宗师再迁馆至大角咀福全街的大生饭店的阁楼设教。该处原为饭店的货 仓，由饭店东主何联借予宗师师用。到馆从学者，多为兴业大厦时期的旧生，除何联外，尚有杨宗瀚、屈榕生、彭 锦发、章静安、李恩荣、邱克苏……这时期宗师教授私人课的地点设在九龙新蒲岗衍庆街某宅。到上址学拳的，多 为警务人员，计有邓生、蓝贤发、袁志刚、李耀辉、黄国……

1965年--1972年，宗师七十二至七十九岁。大生饭店的教务结束后，宗师并没有另置新馆，而多留在通菜街住所了。此 时宗师年事已高，心境早作半退休状态。虽然如此，但他不时仍作个别教授。这时期，个别到宗师住所学拳的同门 ，有王仲华(一谔居士) 、黄禧、韩泽全等。而出外援拳时的驻脚地方有四处：1) 詠春体育会。詠春体育会于1967年经zf批准成为注社团有限公司，亦是本港国术组织中第一个注的团体。当 时会方决定在会址开设詠春拳班，由宗师主持，协助宗师的助教有章静安、冯汉、黄汉忠……但该班维持仅三数个 月就停止了。 2)九龙窝打老道陈卫匡家中。从学者除了陈卫匡、陈肇龙兄弟外；还有王子安、陈锦铭、钟佑、刘汉琳、文彦光 等……3)九龙旺角区自由道刘汉琳家中的天台。此乃窝打老道援拳时的延续。陈卫匡因事未能继续学习，大家就 移址往刘汉琳处继续练拳。在这时加入的同门有王嗣明，宗师还正式收录一位名吴月多的女弟子。 4) 香港岛司徒拔道肇辉台，叶承芍律师府邸。在这里从学者，不单是叶律师，其他人士都是大律师身份。这里也可说 宗师最后一处教拳的地方。宗师因年迈得病，终于在1972年12月1日(农历十月二十六日) 在通菜街家中辞世。终年享寿七十有九岁。

[k gledhill]

Any chance we can get a literal translation, babel fish aint doing it. ?

[Tom Kagan]

Only if you dont understand...you dont, can your ego take that ?

Can yours?

Your strawman is you created a different point of contention - slight alterations causing slight improvements - so that you could attempt to argue against the point I addressed - a BREAK DOWN.

If a 1 cm change causes your movement to break down, you suck. If that happens, maybe what you were taught sucks too, but you definitely suck.

Feel free to commit more logical fallacies if you choose to respond again. (Your last post I just quoted contains another.)

[k gledhill]

Can yours?

Your strawman is you created a different point of contention - slight alterations causing slight improvements - so that you could attempt to argue against the point I addressed - a BREAK DOWN.

If a 1 cm change causes your movement to break down, you suck. If that happens, maybe what you were taught sucks too, but you definitely suck.

Feel free to commit more logical fallacies if you choose to respond again. (Your last post I just quoted contains another.)

You dont understand. try that....

[MOSHE]

Hello

I am interested to receive from the readers of this thread
Some videos links that in their opinion
Are the best and the more original wing Chun

Thanks

[k gledhill]

Hello

I am interested to receive from the readers of this thread
Some videos links that in their opinion
Are the best and the more original wing Chun

Thanks

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2KOppj4r8JY :D makes me grin

[Tom Kagan]

You dont understand. try that....

And you do, right?

I understand perfectly. You chose to stick with an appeal to authority logical fallacy.

[k gledhill]

And you do, right?

I understand perfectly. You chose to stick with an appeal to authority logical fallacy.

otay.........:D

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=MOSHE;1113094]Hello

I am interested to receive from the readers of this thread
Some videos links that in their opinion
Are the best and the more original wing Chun

Thanks
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Best to do your own research and make up your own mind.

joy chaudhuri

[MOSHE]

I just want to have a better view of what is wing chun for people in this forum

[Vajramusti]

I just want to have a better view of what is wing chun for people in this forum
-----------------------------------------------------------------
That's a tall order- many folks on this list-each with their preferences...
some parallel ideas on where I am coming from:

http://www.tempewingchun.com/
www.fongswingchun.com/

www.windycitywingchun.com/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oB_nBdOfkQY


www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3WYVCWHc30

Hope that helps.

joy chaudhuri

[WC1277]

Augustine Fong -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aE16oTCYDzw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0u3IFLCrBU&feature=relmfu

http://www.fongswingchun.com/ChainPunchDemo.mp4


Here's a couple new videos of that Matt guy who used to post here a little while back. He's modified his WC a little bit but none the less I think his skill is pretty good in his strong areas. I like his SLT in the second video -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYrSYl-N7s4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgDlvlndQro

(This one I just like even though it's more sparring than Chi Sao really) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axeKt8Gnjeo



Ed from WCWC doing a decent representation of Fong's dummy form -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdIisl26L0E&feature=channel_video_title

[LoneTiger108]

I just want to have a better view of what is wing chun for people in this forum

My Sigung (GM) Lee Shing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dD6_7mzAQs

And just to re-iterate, I wasn't taught by Lee Shing I was taught by his 7th student Sifu Joe Man ;):D

[MOSHE]

Did you ever ask yourself ,why wooden dummies ARE made WITH very heavy wood , but when using it ,PEOPLE dont strike it strongly ?

And there is no doubt that from the beginning wooden dummies were always made with heavy wood

[Vajramusti]

www.youtube.com/watch?v=ernBJ9RfHxg

Not bad.

Joy Chaudhuri

[Tom Kagan]

otay.........:D
So now you're trying to make an appeal to pity?

Did you ever ask yourself ,why wooden dummies ARE made WITH very heavy wood , but when using it ,PEOPLE dont strike it strongly ?

I know the reasons. However, in light of your previous gems, please humor me and answer your own questions.

[MOSHE]

I was giving the answer in my question

its evident that it has to be strike strongly

not really in order to harden the arms

but in order to build the strength

every hit is precise and regarding a certain know how

i can add that regarding what i see away ,it doesnt seem that people are practising this way

[LoneTiger108]

every hit is precise and regarding a certain know how

i can add that regarding what i see away ,it doesnt seem that people are practising this way

It is hard to drill the wooden man properly (if there IS such a thing!) when many people who buy and train with this equipment have never received any personal instruction at all. Then they upload a video of their 'wailing' ;)

Basic wooden man sets were introduced to me pretty early on in training. There was no mystique about the wooden man. No waiting 2 years or so to learn the 108/116. Just simple Wing Chun sets built up over time...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBv5oE5VNHg

[MOSHE]

Only around 11 cm between the upper arms of the dummy
the hEighT of the dummy is in connection with the hEIghT of the tan sao

the feet allow TO WALK AROUND without having to step back
,,,,,,

[k gledhill]

The height is relative to each persons elbow, so should adjust for students. The lifting , hinging action of the elbow should be avoided, lower is better . We do our drilling with this also in mind, low fok/jum elbows on low tan elbows, all good habits to connect the chain of force to the body as a unit. Not stance alone, then arms hinge up, etc...

[Tom Kagan]

I was giving the answer in my question

its evident that it has to be strike strongly

not really in order to harden the arms

but in order to build the strength

every hit is precise and regarding a certain know how

i can add that regarding what i see away ,it doesnt seem that people are practising this way

Well then, your answer is incorrect.

The reason the dummy is made of hardwood is because hardwoods are indigeneous to southern china and are cheap, plentiful, and do not require significant skill to work with as a raw material.

Poor southern chinese peasants studying an uncommon form of kung fu probably would have made the dummy out of mud if they could have figured out how to make a mud dummy practical.

[MOSHE]

That's so weak!!!
For sure you don't know anything about it

I don't want any polemic but you think twice before answering this way

[Tom Kagan]

That's so weak!!!
For sure you don't know anything about it

I don't want any polemic but you think twice before answering this way

And you do, right?

I see you are joining k gledhill in creating logical fallacies. You created two there: an Ad Hominem, and also an appeal to authority.

I'll let you two in on a little secret: if you can't express your point of view, you don't know the subject matter. When it comes to discussion, debate, sharing ideas, and teaching, your kung fu sucks. Maybe what you were taught sucks, too. but who cares because your own kung fu definitely sucks.

[k gledhill]

And you do, right?

I see you are joining k gledhill in creating logical fallacies. You created two there: an Ad Hominem, and also an appeal to authority.

I'll let you two in on a little secret: if you can't express your point of view, you don't know the subject matter. When it comes to discussion, debate, sharing ideas, and teaching, your kung fu sucks. Maybe what you were taught sucks, too. but who cares because your own kung fu definitely sucks.

Its hard to describe easy to show, come by one day.

[Tom Kagan]

Its hard to describe easy to show, come by one day.

That's fine. Such a situation would be a different skillset than here, anyway.

I doubt however, you will be able to demonstrate how a 1 cm change can make everything go to pot ... unless your kung fu sucks. ;-)

[Graham H]

unless your kung fu sucks. ;-)

only one way to find out Tom......go!

GH

[Tom Kagan]

only one way to find out Tom......go!

GH

What does he want to show me again? Whether he can make a 1 cm change and start sucking? I say he can't show that. LOL.

[Graham H]

What does he want to show me again? Whether he can make a 1 cm change and start sucking? I say he can't show that. LOL.

No but he may try and hit you then you can do all that stuff you keep writing about!

[Tom Kagan]

No but he may try and hit you then you can do all that stuff you keep writing about!

What "stuff to do" in such a situation did I write about? I stay out of those innane online conversations.

I think you're confusing me with someone else. Or drunk posting again. Or both.

[Graham H]

What "stuff to do" in such a situation did I write about? I stay out of those innane online conversations.

I think you're confusing me with someone else. Or drunk posting again. Or both.

Are you drunk posting??? That explains a lot Tom! :D

[Tom Kagan]

Are you drunk posting??? That explains a lot Tom! :D

At the moment, you're the one up past midnight demonstrating degraded reading skills while responding, so you tell me. ;P

[MOSHE]

For information,beside the fact that I provided the right comment concerning the dummy
There is no in south china,trees with hard wood
For the wood furniture they import from Thailand and birmanie

By the way. That's was ng chan who was teaching to moy yat. Wiliam cheung and bruce lee under the supervision of yip man of course
Look if the son of moy yat or for others with wiliAm cheung
The precedent Chinese post and soon an another will follow
even ask them

Regards

[Tom Kagan]

That's was ng chan who was teaching to moy yat.

Moy Yat had respect for Ng Chan. But the SiHing who taught him the most was Mak Po. Of course, your comment is irrelevant anyway.


Also, LOL @ poor southern Chinese peasants being able to afford imported wood furniture.

[Graham H]

At the moment, you're the one up past midnight demonstrating degraded reading skills while responding, so you tell me. ;P

I think you'll find I live in a different time zone you numpty!! If I was Kevin I would have been round your gaff months ago!! Actions speak louder than words and whilst I enjoy bickering on this forum sometimes when the attacks are personal it's time for a bit of seriousness dont you think??

GH

[Tom Kagan]

I think you'll find I live in a different time zone you numpty!! If I was Kevin I would have been round your gaff months ago!! Actions speak louder than words and whilst I enjoy bickering on this forum sometimes when the attacks are personal it's time for a bit of seriousness dont you think??

GH

You're cute when you're posturing.

I took into consideration you are in a different time zone. That's how I knew what time it was where you are when you posted. As far as personal attacks, your whole style of talking is comprised of personal attacks. I don't put much stake in what your saying, so I don't pay it much mind. As far as what I say, I don't see where I made any personal attacks. That would be slipping into Ad hominem and I usually don't bother with it.

So, unless anything I said about you was was 1) true, 2) insulting, and 3) you also don't like people talking it, I can't say what you'd be upset about. So, if you want to be serious, enlighten me: what did I say which was a personal attack?

[MOSHE]

Guys can you please open a new thread for your conversation and please cancel the lastest one from yesterday
The purpose of this thread is not to insult or to hurt the ego but to inform about our own background of wing Chun even if certain people are not pleased with it

Thanks by advance
Regards
Don't forget I'm not English speaker so I'm sorry for the way I express myself

[CFT]

At the moment, you're the one up past midnight demonstrating degraded reading skills while responding, so you tell me. ;PGraham's post preceding this one was at 22:43 UK time, whilst yours was 38mins past midnight UK time.

[Tom Kagan]

Graham's post preceding this one was at 22:43 UK time, whilst yours was 38mins past midnight UK time.

Fair enough. I messed up the time zone offset for the UK from where I am by two additional hours forward.

So what did I mistakenly call him? Greek? Turkish?

[MOSHE]

最流行忽悠你的咏春问题

几拾年，都没有留意咏春拳的走向，约二年前，无意中一看，原来有很多忽悠。[让那些有思考能力的人自已分析，不认同者，请一笑而过。]现例举一些。
1， 二字钳羊马，要提肛。恐怖。[男同性x者,可能很开心],咏春不是打 铁线拳,不是形意拳.所谓提肛,双腿就会僵硬,从而马步走不快,[也难怪,根本不懂走马].
咏春拳之小谂头[不是小念头]二字钳羊马,为基本马步,练习身体整体在搏斗时平衡,所以,身体整体应该是放松,[放松,在中国功夫里,有特定意义]..如果不明白,找个女性,叫她站个二字钳羊马,有没有必要提肛.
2, 念力.念是谂的发音之误会,[佛山,监步,南海,广洲等一带,各有自已口音],咏春拳要有本身的特色力量,即所谓咏春力[中国功夫之所以家数多,就是因为人体可以用不同的姿态发出不同的具大力量,所谓招式,就是为了更完善地施展 力量.].咏春力是打击穿透力,桥手力.[李小龙是他那代非传人里唯一能打出穿透力的人,但,他没有桥手力].小谂头其实最重要就是要训练人们能够形成咏春拳力,动作构成,目光注向,身体平衡,马步实而不死.。所以 ，念是没有力的。要静练，让大脑能控制肌肉。
3， 咏春拳不需要用力，天大忽悠。拳术最重要是力。看岭南拳术，洪拳特性-挑，劈。撞，工字伏虎，一指定中原其盘桥而指插喉。咏春无力能对打？当年找钱华与黄飞鸿交手，黄挑，华伏。 挑不动，再用力。华转而圈拍黄手挣，定胜负。侠家拳练习时穿边石锁，臂力强大。白眉拳吞胸捎基背，九步推， 背剑手，力量非常。南踪螂勾手，凤眼拳，马步丁不丁，八不八，吞胸收肘。龙形的爪，魔桥的九步推扭马双掌打 。蔡李佛左右寻拿，挂捎插，送肩偷漏手，到谭三的北胜左右插拳加脚，全都力量十足。并且岭南拳术不讲内外家 ，基本不讲气功。
4， 三套拳里的起式，原为洪门反清的特定手势[有别于身前出三指的’三点水’手势]双手交叉.的心在汉土[洪为汉字失去中土为洪]而说成什么挡脚等。
5， 直拳，今天误叫冲拳。双手连环直拳，打成交叉手状。咏春直拳最难打，不能送肩，手臂独立，¬要发得出打击穿 透力，严格来讲，基本上无人。冲拳是撞力，并且要用身体力加在一起，例如太极的般拦拳，形意的冲劈拳等。直 拳打得不好，就成了推力。咏春最忌交叉手，而咏春最少有三种不同的--破中间手。这种所谓冲拳，一个破中手，即死。
6， 肘归中。咏春拳是拳由中心发，不是肘由中心发。一，女人有乳房[虽然清朝女人普遍束胸]这样归肘，有可能吗？二，这个肘归中，不可能手臂有力，作为摊手，根本出不到。成为死动作。.
7， 蒙眼chi手.。搏斗，眼到手到，眼明手快，从来没有人可以蒙着眼搏斗，绝对大忽悠。
8， 地下摔打，别人倒在地上，骑在人身上不停地打。咏春是女人，清代男女有别分得清楚，咏春需要贴身摔别人？笑 话，咏春拳把对手打到断手断脚，易如反掌，把对手打跌于地上，只要用脚迫马，拍脚，踏脚轻易之至，何况摔？ 再者，死里求生八脚，足以应付倒地打到再起身。摔这个也是大忽悠。
9， chi手。现时所谓chi手，完全大忽悠，那些假教练骗人最好方法，两个大男人，你摸他手，互双摸，毫无手 法，马步，软手软脚，站都站不稳。
咏春chi手其实是自己练习好手法，师傅带着你上马，转马，简单过手，从而进一步练习对打。师傅引导，辅导 你把学习到的手法去进攻师傅，而不是师傅打学生。在chi手过程中，指出错误，以实践证明对错。单纯动作， 可以说毫无意义，必须涉及力，角度，马步姿态的正确，马步的高或低，对走马，上马绝对有影垧。拳术搏斗，在 走动中是否可以发得出所需力量，至为重要。如果缺少这些，就是大忽悠。
10， 刀，每个咏春大师都表演。但，我可以绝对讲，都是忽悠。先看刀形

开山刀态。这绝对错，冷兵嚣不会有这错误形状。双方兵器接触，这个形状会把对方兵刃滑向自已，非常危险。另 外，咏春刀主要用腕力，这刀形，手腕都脱掉，根本发不出短劲力。

最基本得象这双刀形，并且较短，以便双手间运转。刀法有如手法，左右攻击，刀剌，斩，圈，捆，耕，梆，拍， 反。快速走马，脚法配合，扣夺兵器等，对付长短兵器，整体完善，生死拼杀之器，何来这样无马无步，无力，空 位百出。
拜托各位大师，不要再忽悠，收起那些刀，如果不是传人，你是绝对不懂的，而且，也绝对没有用刀的力，也不懂 走马，如有不服，试试在单头棍前，一步斩到持棍者，走走你的咏春拳马。
11，木人桩，目前最忽悠人的咏春拳道具。看个桩形图片。

对，都是一枝身，三支手，一只前弓步脚。[注意，前弓步脚]所以，第一个己错，前弓后箭马，前弓绝对不是这个样子的。所以，我说人们不懂走马，这样怎能走左走右？椿身 有如人身，直径23-25cm。上面双手，距离不能超过椿身，双身之间矩离内为4英寸左右，因为咏春运作双手不出身体。

整个木人椿高度有严格要求。
咏春木人椿最早是入地椿，后来严咏春都把椿手打断，才改成挂椿，从而改变力道。
岭南拳术，大多创立清代，作为反清使命，所以非常注重桥手力量，因为对手多切为北方拳术，而北方拳术，多数 缺少这方面。所以，咏春打椿，定要用力，不然，那须用这么硬的木？所以，下面的相片的木人椿， 绝对是忽悠。


这样的椿，小孩都推倒，怎样打？
12， 关门弟子。叶问宗师。这个是凉亭的大忽悠。叶问从来没有收过徒弟，学生叫他师父都不喜欢，而令愿人们叫他‘ 老野’，[广东话，即老头]。把叶问叫作宗师，是他的一个阴谋。宗师的关门弟子，借以提高自己，此人极具心计，以懂英文帮咏春体育会英 文书信来往为名接近叶问[当时体育会只有李文为中文秘书]。
咏春拳之所以特殊，起源于反清，创立此拳目的用于护守组织，追杀叛徙，所以，绝对以杀人为目的，手段狠毒， 从创立开始，已经明确，对手为绝对练武之人，可以说各家各派，己包括在内。基于上术原因，不适合普及大众， 自梁赞起，教人算多，公开者，为陈华顺。继承者为梁壁，即传人。所以，不收徙，不称师傅，不拜祖师，不设神 位。[有人称小念头什么三拜佛，笑料，神位都不设，何来拜佛？]学过的中外学生对我说的同一句话是，这样狠毒的拳，千万不要随便教人。
传人都具有能修习咏春拳的天份，[天份如何？小谂头的第一节能练得准确，如果不能，基本上其他不用了]专心，苦心，不能出名，坚守诺言，斩生鸡头烧黄纸发毒誓。
何为专心？小谂头就是叫你不要问，只要练。因为，全中国唯一的一套拳，从头到尾站在原地不动到完成，一问， 十年都说不清楚。
苦心苦练，怎样苦？举个例，吾师叫‘鬼脚灿’.。为什么？现时的人见泰拳什么踢树。小菜一碟，唔师练的九华 径踢松树。小的我虽然不好，但小腿上下五寸，不怕一拼。
不能出名。吾师一生不出名，叶问对人说，学咏春去广洲找郭富，本身是忽悠你[所以，别以为视频有什么]吾师在香港。吾师绝对苦练，对比两人手腕就知道，黄荛东与吾师chi手视频，相信当时黄师傅举手都难，吾师 手有多重？但吾师尚末有用力。陈华顺与梁壁的咏春拳分别在那里？简单来说，陈华顺发不出咏春力，只有体力的 力。梁壁说，什么叫功夫一山还有一山高？他就一生没有见过所谓育高山，与人交手，从末多用过三下而胜。梁壁 是穿透打击力，奇大的桥手力。
现代社会，通讯发达，很多人以谎言说一百次成真理来抵毁中国文化。如武术上象赵道新之流。井底之徙。中国武 术之伟大在于对力量力学的绝对透切表现。[中国人有三样例子，一，飞马踏燕，二，赵洲桥。三，对驳壳枪的使用。全世界的人，都没法使用此枪作准确射击 ，只有中国人，很多，能。这足以证明中华民族对力学牛B.
有人说,形意拳劈拳力大,.。咏春拳相对下，拳的力量比它大。我见山西农村练劈拳时同时摆桩撞前小腿。而我 们撞松村。真正懂的人，会明白我想说。
最后，用我的咏春拳心得来结束，，，，，
狠准快劲
来留去送
甩手直冲
拳由心发
以进代退
手脚并用
神聚体松

[GlennR]

最流行忽悠你的咏春问题

几拾年，都没有留意咏春拳的走向，约二年前，无意中一看，原来有很多忽悠。[让那些有思考能力的人自已分析，不认同者，请一笑而过。]现例举一些。
1， 二字钳羊马，要提肛。恐怖。[男同性x者,可能很开心],咏春不是打 铁线拳,不是形意拳.所谓提肛,双腿就会僵硬,从而马步走不快,[也难怪,根本不懂走马].
咏春拳之小谂头[不是小念头]二字钳羊马,为基本马步,练习身体整体在搏斗时平衡,所以,身体整体应该是放松,[放松,在中国功夫里,有特定意义]..如果不明白,找个女性,叫她站个二字钳羊马,有没有必要提肛.
2, 念力.念是谂的发音之误会,[佛山,监步,南海,广洲等一带,各有自已口音],咏春拳要有本身的特色力量,即所谓咏春力[中国功夫之所以家数多,就是因为人体可以用不同的姿态发出不同的具大力量,所谓招式,就是为了更完善地施展 力量.].咏春力是打击穿透力,桥手力.[李小龙是他那代非传人里唯一能打出穿透力的人,但,他没有桥手力].小谂头其实最重要就是要训练人们能够形成咏春拳力,动作构成,目光注向,身体平衡,马步实而不死.。所以 ，念是没有力的。要静练，让大脑能控制肌肉。
3， 咏春拳不需要用力，天大忽悠。拳术最重要是力。看岭南拳术，洪拳特性-挑，劈。撞，工字伏虎，一指定中原其盘桥而指插喉。咏春无力能对打？当年找钱华与黄飞鸿交手，黄挑，华伏。 挑不动，再用力。华转而圈拍黄手挣，定胜负。侠家拳练习时穿边石锁，臂力强大。白眉拳吞胸捎基背，九步推， 背剑手，力量非常。南踪螂勾手，凤眼拳，马步丁不丁，八不八，吞胸收肘。龙形的爪，魔桥的九步推扭马双掌打 。蔡李佛左右寻拿，挂捎插，送肩偷漏手，到谭三的北胜左右插拳加脚，全都力量十足。并且岭南拳术不讲内外家 ，基本不讲气功。
4， 三套拳里的起式，原为洪门反清的特定手势[有别于身前出三指的’三点水’手势]双手交叉.的心在汉土[洪为汉字失去中土为洪]而说成什么挡脚等。
5， 直拳，今天误叫冲拳。双手连环直拳，打成交叉手状。咏春直拳最难打，不能送肩，手臂独立，¬要发得出打击穿 透力，严格来讲，基本上无人。冲拳是撞力，并且要用身体力加在一起，例如太极的般拦拳，形意的冲劈拳等。直 拳打得不好，就成了推力。咏春最忌交叉手，而咏春最少有三种不同的--破中间手。这种所谓冲拳，一个破中手，即死。
6， 肘归中。咏春拳是拳由中心发，不是肘由中心发。一，女人有乳房[虽然清朝女人普遍束胸]这样归肘，有可能吗？二，这个肘归中，不可能手臂有力，作为摊手，根本出不到。成为死动作。.
7， 蒙眼chi手.。搏斗，眼到手到，眼明手快，从来没有人可以蒙着眼搏斗，绝对大忽悠。
8， 地下摔打，别人倒在地上，骑在人身上不停地打。咏春是女人，清代男女有别分得清楚，咏春需要贴身摔别人？笑 话，咏春拳把对手打到断手断脚，易如反掌，把对手打跌于地上，只要用脚迫马，拍脚，踏脚轻易之至，何况摔？ 再者，死里求生八脚，足以应付倒地打到再起身。摔这个也是大忽悠。
9， chi手。现时所谓chi手，完全大忽悠，那些假教练骗人最好方法，两个大男人，你摸他手，互双摸，毫无手 法，马步，软手软脚，站都站不稳。
咏春chi手其实是自己练习好手法，师傅带着你上马，转马，简单过手，从而进一步练习对打。师傅引导，辅导 你把学习到的手法去进攻师傅，而不是师傅打学生。在chi手过程中，指出错误，以实践证明对错。单纯动作， 可以说毫无意义，必须涉及力，角度，马步姿态的正确，马步的高或低，对走马，上马绝对有影垧。拳术搏斗，在 走动中是否可以发得出所需力量，至为重要。如果缺少这些，就是大忽悠。
10， 刀，每个咏春大师都表演。但，我可以绝对讲，都是忽悠。先看刀形

开山刀态。这绝对错，冷兵嚣不会有这错误形状。双方兵器接触，这个形状会把对方兵刃滑向自已，非常危险。另 外，咏春刀主要用腕力，这刀形，手腕都脱掉，根本发不出短劲力。

最基本得象这双刀形，并且较短，以便双手间运转。刀法有如手法，左右攻击，刀剌，斩，圈，捆，耕，梆，拍， 反。快速走马，脚法配合，扣夺兵器等，对付长短兵器，整体完善，生死拼杀之器，何来这样无马无步，无力，空 位百出。
拜托各位大师，不要再忽悠，收起那些刀，如果不是传人，你是绝对不懂的，而且，也绝对没有用刀的力，也不懂 走马，如有不服，试试在单头棍前，一步斩到持棍者，走走你的咏春拳马。
11，木人桩，目前最忽悠人的咏春拳道具。看个桩形图片。

对，都是一枝身，三支手，一只前弓步脚。[注意，前弓步脚]所以，第一个己错，前弓后箭马，前弓绝对不是这个样子的。所以，我说人们不懂走马，这样怎能走左走右？椿身 有如人身，直径23-25cm。上面双手，距离不能超过椿身，双身之间矩离内为4英寸左右，因为咏春运作双手不出身体。

整个木人椿高度有严格要求。
咏春木人椿最早是入地椿，后来严咏春都把椿手打断，才改成挂椿，从而改变力道。
岭南拳术，大多创立清代，作为反清使命，所以非常注重桥手力量，因为对手多切为北方拳术，而北方拳术，多数 缺少这方面。所以，咏春打椿，定要用力，不然，那须用这么硬的木？所以，下面的相片的木人椿， 绝对是忽悠。


这样的椿，小孩都推倒，怎样打？
12， 关门弟子。叶问宗师。这个是凉亭的大忽悠。叶问从来没有收过徒弟，学生叫他师父都不喜欢，而令愿人们叫他‘ 老野’，[广东话，即老头]。把叶问叫作宗师，是他的一个阴谋。宗师的关门弟子，借以提高自己，此人极具心计，以懂英文帮咏春体育会英 文书信来往为名接近叶问[当时体育会只有李文为中文秘书]。
咏春拳之所以特殊，起源于反清，创立此拳目的用于护守组织，追杀叛徙，所以，绝对以杀人为目的，手段狠毒， 从创立开始，已经明确，对手为绝对练武之人，可以说各家各派，己包括在内。基于上术原因，不适合普及大众， 自梁赞起，教人算多，公开者，为陈华顺。继承者为梁壁，即传人。所以，不收徙，不称师傅，不拜祖师，不设神 位。[有人称小念头什么三拜佛，笑料，神位都不设，何来拜佛？]学过的中外学生对我说的同一句话是，这样狠毒的拳，千万不要随便教人。
传人都具有能修习咏春拳的天份，[天份如何？小谂头的第一节能练得准确，如果不能，基本上其他不用了]专心，苦心，不能出名，坚守诺言，斩生鸡头烧黄纸发毒誓。
何为专心？小谂头就是叫你不要问，只要练。因为，全中国唯一的一套拳，从头到尾站在原地不动到完成，一问， 十年都说不清楚。
苦心苦练，怎样苦？举个例，吾师叫‘鬼脚灿’.。为什么？现时的人见泰拳什么踢树。小菜一碟，唔师练的九华 径踢松树。小的我虽然不好，但小腿上下五寸，不怕一拼。
不能出名。吾师一生不出名，叶问对人说，学咏春去广洲找郭富，本身是忽悠你[所以，别以为视频有什么]吾师在香港。吾师绝对苦练，对比两人手腕就知道，黄荛东与吾师chi手视频，相信当时黄师傅举手都难，吾师 手有多重？但吾师尚末有用力。陈华顺与梁壁的咏春拳分别在那里？简单来说，陈华顺发不出咏春力，只有体力的 力。梁壁说，什么叫功夫一山还有一山高？他就一生没有见过所谓育高山，与人交手，从末多用过三下而胜。梁壁 是穿透打击力，奇大的桥手力。
现代社会，通讯发达，很多人以谎言说一百次成真理来抵毁中国文化。如武术上象赵道新之流。井底之徙。中国武 术之伟大在于对力量力学的绝对透切表现。[中国人有三样例子，一，飞马踏燕，二，赵洲桥。三，对驳壳枪的使用。全世界的人，都没法使用此枪作准确射击 ，只有中国人，很多，能。这足以证明中华民族对力学牛B.
有人说,形意拳劈拳力大,.。咏春拳相对下，拳的力量比它大。我见山西农村练劈拳时同时摆桩撞前小腿。而我 们撞松村。真正懂的人，会明白我想说。
最后，用我的咏春拳心得来结束，，，，，
狠准快劲
来留去送
甩手直冲
拳由心发
以进代退
手脚并用
神聚体松

Menu at your local Restaurant???

[MOSHE]

Thats from my sifu,i dont have the translation

try to have help in your favorite chinese restaurant !

[CFT]

Fair enough. I messed up the time zone offset for the UK from where I am by two additional hours forward.

So what did I mistakenly call him? Greek? Turkish?Yep. You've also got Finland in the North all the way down to S. Africa.

[MOSHE]

Please use private messages and cancel the previous post

thanks by advance

[LoneTiger108]

Just from putting the text through a translation service you get an idea of the article and I found it quite intriguing, and it will be something I pass on mto my Sifu too as I know he will be interested ;)

Thanks to your Sifu for sharing MOSHE

[Vajramusti]

What did the Chinese text say? Why don't you post the translation-if it is important?
Waiters in Chinese restaurants have to work hard for a living.

Moshe- welcome to net list chats---and trying to keep discussions on course.

Yours have gone of course too- shifting from Ng Chan to unfounded generalizations

about others.

joy chaudhuri

[LoneTiger108]

What did the Chinese text say? Why don't you post the translation-if it is important?
Waiters in Chinese restaurants have to work hard for a living.

True. We shouldn't over burden our services workers Joy!! ;)

I found the content to be an attempt to further discuss points that have been raised on this forum recently, which offers a unique insight into Moshe's teachers learning experience. Very sincere (and accurate!) in some points imhhho!

Copy and paste into Google Translate and you get it all a bit jumbled, but again if you have been hanging around that restaurant for a time you will probably be able to pick up the broken/traditional to modern English attempt! Words like 'flicker' are used which really should be 'blurred' and so on. The info I found intriguing was the talk of the knife shape and Ip Mans 'way of learning' and the fact that none of his later students were proper 'apprentices' or even learning to teach, like he was back in his earlier years.

Here it is for those that don't have the chinese on their systems...

ps. I've had to post it in parts coz it was sooooooo long!!

Enjoy deciphering the text!!! :D

[LoneTiger108]

"The most popular question you have on your Wing Chun

Pick up a few years, do not pay attention to the trend of Wing Chun, about two years ago, inadvertently saw that there are a lot of flicker. [For those who have the ability to think their own analysis, do not agree, please laugh it off. ] Now cite a number.
1, the word clamp yangmahe to levator ani. Terror. [X male sex who may be very happy], Wing Chun is not a fist fight wire, Xing Yi Quan is not a so-called levator ani, the legs will be stiff, so slow horse go, [it is no wonder, do not understand cursory].
Wing Chun's small recite the head [is not a small idea of] the word clamp yangmahe, as the basic stances, exercises overall body balance in a fight, so the whole body should be relaxed, [relax in the Chinese martial arts, there is a specific meaning ] .. If you do not understand, to find a woman, told her to stand clamp yangmahe a word, there is no need to levator ani.
2, the read power. Read is recite the pronunciation of misunderstanding, [Foshan, monitoring step, the South China Sea, Guangzhou and other area, each with their own accent], force Wing Chun to have their own characteristics, the so-called force Wing Chun [Chinese Kung Fu Therefore, the number of multi-family, because the body can be different with a different attitude to issue a large force, the so-called moves, is to better display their power.]. Wing Chun is a combat force penetration bridge the hand. [Bruce Lee he was the only descendant of that generation can play non-penetrating, but he did not bridge the hand]. small recite the first the most important is to train people to be able to force the formation of Wing Chun, the action form, note the eyes, body balance, horse real and alive. Therefore, the idea is not power. And they have to practice, so the brain can control muscles.
3, Wing Chun does not require force, big flicker. Boxing is the most important force. Look at Lingnan martial arts, Fist feature - pick, chop. Hit, the word tigers, a designated bridge and the Central Plains of its drive means intubation. Inability to rally Wing Chun? Find the money then played against China and Once Upon a Time, yellow pick, Hua Fu. Pick does not move, and then forced. Chinese film circle turn yellow hand earned, will be played. Xia-style boxing exercises while wearing Stone Lock, a strong arm. Browed boxing back to swallow the chest take along the base, nine step push back the swordsman, the power is. South track mantis hook, water hyacinth boxing, horse not Ding Ding, eight is not eight, swallow chest close elbow. Dragon's claw, devil's nine-step push the bridge twisted palms horse play. Cai Lifo seeking to get around, take along hanging plug, send the shoulder evasion hand, to the three North wins Tan inserted about boxing plus feet, all full force. Lingnan boxing inside and outside the home and do not speak, do not speak the basic qigong.
4, three Taoquan in the style from the original anti-freemason specific gesture for the [different from the front of the three fingers of the 'drops' gesture] with hands folded.'s Heart in the Chinese soil [lost in the flood of Chinese characters soil for the flood] and say what the feet and other gear.
5, straight blow today mistakenly called boxing. Chain straight blow with both hands, hand-labeled cross-shaped. Wing Chun straight blow the hardest hit, can not send the shoulder, arm, independent, ¬ draw against penetration to hair, strictly speaking, basically no one. Boxing is the force of the impact, and to use physical force together, such as Tai Chi-like stopped boxing, Xingyi impulse Piquan and so on. Straight punch well, it becomes thrust. Wing Chun very sensitive to cross-hand, and Wing Chun at least three different - breaking the middle hand. This so-called boxing, a break in the hand, that is dead...

[LoneTiger108]

6, owned by the elbow. Issued by the Center Wing Chun is boxing, not the elbow made by the center. First, women have breasts [Although the Qing Dynasty general bra woman] so go elbow, possible? Second, the return of the elbow, the arm can not be effective, as Tanshou, not simply out. Become a dead movement. .
7, blindfolded chi hand. Fight, hand to eye, sharp-eyed, no one can fight blindfolded, absolutely great flicker.
8, underground beat, others fell to the ground, riding in the human body kept playing. Wing Chun is a woman, men and women do not distinguish the Qing Dynasty, Wing Chun close throw people need? Joke, Wing Chun opponents hit limbs, easy to play down the opponent on the ground, forcing the horse as long as their feet, beat feet, stepping lightly matter, not to mention wrestling? Furthermore, the dead survive eight feet, enough to meet up again fell to the ground hit. This is also a big wrestling flicker.
9, chi hand. At present the so-called chi hand, completely Huyou, the best way to deceive those who leave the coach, the two big men, you touch his hand, each two-touch, no way, horse, soft-soft feet, not stand unstable.
Wing Chun chi practice good hand is her own way, the master with your horse, turn horse, a simple pass-through to further practice sparring. Teacher guidance, counseling you learn to master the way to attack, instead of playing the master students. Chi hand in the process, pointing out the error to proven right or wrong. Simple action, we can say is meaningless, must involve force, angle, the right horse stance, horse high or low, on the cursory, launched absolute shadow Shang. Boxing fight, whether the move can be made in the required draw force is essential. If the lack of these is a large flicker.
10, knife, master of Wing Chun are performances each. However, I can definitely say, are flicker. Look at knife-shaped

Machete state. This is absolutely wrong, there will not be this cold soldiers clamor error shape. Exposure to both arms, the shape will slide into each other's Weaponry their own, very dangerous. In addition, Wing Chun is mainly used wrist knife, the knife-shaped, off wrists are simply unable to pronounce the short impulsive...

[LoneTiger108]

This pole shaped like a basic and short, between your hands to operate. Blade like the way, about attack, knife stab, cut, ring, tie, farming, bang, shoot, anti. Quick cursory, with your feet, seize weapons and other deduction against the length of weapons, the overall improvement of life and death flame of the device, how can so that no horse no step, weakness, vacancies abound.
Come you masters, do not flicker, put away those knives, if not the transmission, you absolutely do not understand, and have absolutely not a knife's edge, do not know cursory, if not satisfied, try to stick in the head before a single , step cut into the Chi Gun who walk your horse Wing Chun.
11, dummy, most Bluff Wing Chun props. See a pile-shaped image.

Yes, all one body, three hands, one foot before the lunge. [Note, the first lunge foot] So, the first has been wrong, after the arrow before the bow horse, before the bow is definitely not like this. So, I said people do not understand cursory, so how can the right to go left to go? Chun body like a person, diameter 23-25cm. Above the hands, no more than piles away from the body, between two-body moment of about 4 inches from the inside, because the operation of Wing Chun, not the body with both hands.

Chun height of the wooden men, there are strict requirements.
Chun Wing Chun wooden dummy is the first piles into the earth, then Yanyong Chun Chun regarded broken hand, was linked into piles, thus changing the strength.
Lingnan boxing, most of the Qing Dynasty was founded, as the anti-mission, it attaches great importance to bridge hand strength, because the opponents cut in northern martial arts, boxing and the north, most lack in this area. Therefore, Wing Chun piling, will be hard, otherwise, it shall be for such a hard wood? Therefore, the following photos of wooden men Chun, absolutely flicker.


This toon, children are torn down, how to fight?
12, close disciples. Grandmaster Yip Man. This is a big pavilion flicker. Yip Man never received apprentice, students master not like him, and that people would like to call him 'old field', [Cantonese, the old man]. Called the master Yip Man, he's a conspiracy. Guru's close disciples, in order to improve themselves, very calculating person, to know English to help sports clubs in English Wing Chun close correspondence in the name of Ip [Levin was only for the Chinese Sports Association secretary].
Wing Chun is special, originated in the anti, founded for this purpose Guardian boxing organization, kill rebel resettlement, therefore, strictly for the purpose of killing, means vicious, from its inception, has made it clear, absolute martial arts rival people can say that various factions, has been included. Technique based on reason, not suitable for universal public, starting from Ryazan, teach people to count and more open, serving Chen Huashun. Successor for the beam wall, that successor. So, do not accept resettlement, do not call the master, do not worship the founder, no tablets. [There is a small idea of ​​what the three called Buddha, jokes, tablets are not set, how to pray? ] Studied a foreign student said to me the same sentence is so vicious punches, do not just teach people.
Successor has the talent to attend Wing Chun, [talent how? Small recite the head section can turn out to be accurate, if not, basically not the other] to concentrate, pains, not known, stick to its promise, cut raw chicken head burn yellow paper a serious oath.
What is the focus? Small recite the head is called Do not ask, just practice. Because only a fist the whole of China, from start to finish to complete stand still not moving, I asked, years are not clear.
Painstakingly worked hard, how hard? For example, My teacher called 'ghost feet Can'. Why? Now people see what Muay Thai kick trees. A piece of cake, teacher training in Kau Wa Keng Well kick pine. Although small, I is not good, but the leg up and down five inches, not afraid of a fight.
Not known. My teacher would never have known, leaves question for people that learn to Guangzhou to find Wing Chun Guo Fu itself is 忽悠 you [So, do not think any video] My teacher in Hong Kong. My teacher never worked hard, compared to two wrist know, yellow grass hand-chi East and With Love video, I believe that Master Huang was a show of hands is immune, With Love hand weigh? My teacher has not been made, but hard. Chenhua Shun and Leung Wing Chun wall were there? In short, Chen Huashun unable Wing Chun power, only physical force. Liang said the wall, what effort there is mountain high mountain? He never had seen so-called sterile mountains, and of negotiating, used three times more than from the end and win. Beam penetrates the wall is striking force, large odd bridge the hand.
Modern society, developed communication, a lot of people to lie a hundred times as truth to discredit the Chinese culture. Zhao said as the martial arts as a new ilk. Bottom of the resettlement. Chinese martial arts greatness lies in the mechanics of the absolute power of carrying out a thorough performance. [There are three examples of the Chinese people, one, riding Pegasus Yan, II, Zhao Island Bridge. Third, the use of Mauser. People around the world, no law to use this gun for accurate shooting, only the Chinese people, a lot of energy. This proves that the Chinese nation on the mechanical cow B.
Some people say, Xing Yi Quan Piquan force,. Wing Chun is relatively lower, the power of boxing than it big. I see the rural areas of Shanxi Piquan practice before the collision at the same time put the pile leg. And we hit Matsumura. Really knows who will understand I want to say.
Finally, use my experience to end ,,,,, Wing Chun
Henzhunkuaijin
To the left to send
Walk away straight
Boxing made by the heart
Yijindaitui
Hands and feet
God polymer Song

THE END!

[CFT]

Finally, use my experience to end ,,,,, Wing Chun
Henzhunkuaijin
To the left to send
Walk away straight
Boxing made by the heart
Yijindaitui
Hands and feet
God polymer Song

THE END!Gotta love these machine translations!

Too long and not enough personal time to post a translation but the closing words are not a problem.


最后，用我的咏春拳心得来结束，，，，，
狠准快劲
来留去送
甩手直冲
拳由心发
以进代退
手脚并用
神聚体松

Finally, I'll use my Wing Chun experience to conclude,,,,,
Ruthlessness allows fast ging
Receive what comes, escort what leaves
On loss of contact, thrust ahead
The fist comes from the heart
Use advancing to replace retreating
Hands and feet are used together
The spirit is gathered and the body is relaxed

[Vajramusti]

Thanks Spencer and Chee-
the mechanical translation gives bits of broken info. Chee's final translation of the ending is classic kuen kuit- showing that Ip man did share the kuen kuit in different degrees with soem of his students.

With appreciation and thanks,

joy chaudhuri

[MOSHE]

I dont have the translation ,but if you can ,you should give attention to the previous one in chinese ,about yip man teaching to his students

[Vajramusti]

I dont have the translation ,but if you can ,you should give attention to the previous one in chinese ,about yip man teaching to his students
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Moshe- I would enjoy reading his views if available, But note--when Ip man taught privately- Ng Chan was not around.. that is certainly true in the years of Ho kam Ming receiving private individualized instruction.
The group classes and private instruction (in each student's case) were different things.

joy chaudhuri

[MOSHE]

.................................................. ..

[MOSHE]

.................................................. .................................

[MOSHE]

.................................................. ....................................

[MOSHE]

See the PICTURE OF MY WOODEN DUMMY THAT i sent before WHICH IS corresponding to THE ONE OF leung bik ,LIKE by the way,TO the one OF yip man in his museum

[MOSHE]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Moshe- I would enjoy reading his views if available, But note--when Ip man taught privately- Ng Chan was not around.. that is certainly true in the years of Ho kam Ming receiving private individualized instruction.
The group classes and private instruction (in each student's case) were different things.

joy chaudhuri

You are certainly right about the regular teaching he was providing.
After all the posts I sent ,you certainly understood that I want with the authorization of my sifu to disclose a message.
At begining when ip man started to extend his teaching to a lot of people he wasn't certainly aware of the expansion by our days

[Vajramusti]

You are certainly right about the regular teaching he was providing.
After all the posts I sent ,you certainly understood that I want with the authorization of my sifu to disclose a message.
At begining when ip man started to extend his teaching to a lot of people he wasn't certainly aware of the expansion by our days
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I appreciate clear factual information about Ng Chan- but you are not always clear - to me any way-
about some of the points you make. There certainly seems there is some preaching and dogmatism. and over reaching.

joy chaudhuri

[CFT]

Thanks Spencer and Chee-
the mechanical translation gives bits of broken info. Chee's final translation of the ending is classic kuen kuit- showing that Ip man did share the kuen kuit in different degrees with soem of his students.

With appreciation and thanks,No problem.

I do wonder if there is a typo with the 2nd character here:

狠准快劲
Ruthlessness allows fast ging

I think it should be 準 (accuracy), so the whole phrase would be:

狠準快劲
Ruthlessness accuracy speed power (ging)

[CFT]

Words like 'flicker' are used which really should be 'blurred' and so on.I was intrigued by this term too since I had not seen it before.

Baidu has an explanation but it is in Chinese.
http://baike.baidu.com/view/2735.htm

忽悠 which Babelfish, etc. translates as 'flicker' does not convey the true meaning IMO.

Seems it is a North Eastern Chinese slang for misleading info, misdirection used to lead people astray/into traps.

So the title: 最流行忽悠你的咏春问题

means the most popular (最流行) Wing Chun problems/issues (咏春问题) to mislead you (忽悠你).

The author is trying to highlight misinformation that is in Wing Chun circles.

[LoneTiger108]

Thanks for that Chee. It's always good to look into these things ;)

[MOSHE]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
i appreciate clear factual information about ng chan- but you are not always clear - to me any way-
about some of the points you make. There certainly seems there is some preaching and dogmatism. And over reaching.

Joy chaudhuri

in fact, i called this thread ng chan wing chun ,but ng chan didnt add or take off anything from what he received from ip man .
But what he received from ip man and what himself gave to two of his students at different time was the wing chun that ip man received from leung bik .
The same that leung bik received from leung chan and the same that wing chun was practising.

All the other one received differents versions from the wing chun that leung chan gave to sha wa son (there is no shame to that ,and that is not insulting people saying that)


see a precedent post to learn for which reason this happened

and if this was secret ,why i can speak about that now ?


My sifu was living with ng chan ,and if ng chan never broke his oath to ip man, not speaking clearly about the wing chun of leung bik ,he didnt hide anything to my sifu when practising with him.

So my sifu took everything like that and ng chan never asked him to do an oath like his precedent student leung heu .

This LAST one cannot speak about it because he made his oath in front of ng chan and ip man
and i know that few years ago .he came to do the same with his son in front of ng chan
these two are the officials but secret depositories of the wing chun

[Vajramusti]

Moshe says:
All the other one received differents versions from the wing chun that leung chan gave to sha wa son (there is no shame to that ,and that is not insulting people saying that)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Condescending, presumptuous, incorrect and boring. How would you, your sifu or Ng Chan know what instruction every single Ip man student received.?

joy chaudhuri

[MOSHE]

Ip man told ng chan
And the fact is that none of you( without disrespect) know about it

[kung fu fighter]

in fact, i called this thread ng chan wing chun ,but ng chan didnt add or take off anything from what he received from ip man .
But what he received from ip man and what himself gave to two of his students at different time was the wing chun that ip man received from leung bik .
The same that leung bik received from leung chan and the same that wing chun was practising.

All the other one received differents versions from the wing chun that leung chan gave to sha wa son (there is no shame to that ,and that is not insulting people saying that)

I didn't see anything different in those clips of Ng Chan that's that different from what yip's other students are doing. The body mechanics is more or less the same.

Perhaps you can point out some of the body mechanics that's unique to Leung Bik's wing chun?

[Vajramusti]

A possibly broken telephone Moshe. Good luck with your secret.

joy chaudhuri

[MOSHE]

I didn't see anything different in those clips of Ng Chan that's that different from what yip's other students are doing. The body mechanics is more or less the same.

Perhaps you can point out some of the body mechanics that's unique to Leung Bik's wing chun?

Don't pay too much attention to these videos like the one from ip man
They are not perfoming seriously
But they can't go against two things
First there stance
Second look how stable and heavy looks their arms and how are straight their movements

Beside that the precision of the movements in siu lim Tao are important and with some differences too that I don't want to comment on the web
Everything is part as well of a know how that only a close supervision from Leung bik to ip man or any other depositaries after them can achieve

In the first posts I hinted some points To help in the self
evaluation of your oWn wing chun
and this is my purpose in this forum

Regards

[LoneTiger108]

in fact, i called this thread ng chan wing chun ,but ng chan didnt add or take off anything from what he received from ip man .
But what he received from ip man and what himself gave to two of his students at different time was the wing chun that ip man received from leung bik .
The same that leung bik received from leung chan and the same that wing chun was practising.

An interesting opinion, especially considering that back in the eighties the name Leung Bik was 'legend' propogated by very few and it was only recently that (because of the Ip Man films?) the Ip Family have now conceded that Leung Bik existed.

This throws up all sorts of questions for everyone who has learnt, what I call, Ip Mans western curriculum. But I only have one question for you MOSHE:

If Ng Chan claims to know the 'original' Leung Family WCK, which I presume existed 'before' he taught the Fung Family 12 hand set, and you can now speak more openly about what you know, what is the curriculum?

[MOSHE]

[QUOTE
If Ng Chan claims to know the 'original' Leung Family WCK, which I presume existed 'before' he taught the Fung Family 12 hand set, and you can now speak more openly about what you know, what is the curriculum?[/QUOTE]

LIKE I SAID ,NG CHAN NEVER SPOKE ABOUT IT BECAUSE HE WAS HOLD BY THE OATH HE MADE TO IP MAN
THE REASON THAT WE KNOW FOR SURE ABOUT IT ,IS BECAUSE NG CHAN WAS VERY CLOSE TO ONE FRIEND OF HIM ,WHO WAS TRAINING AT THE SAME AS SOMEBODY CALLED LEUNG HEU.
NG CHAN PROPOSED TO LEUNG HEU TO MAKE THE SAME OATH IN FRONT OF HIMSELF AND IP MADE,WHAT WAS DONE.
HIS FRIEND WHO WAS AT LEAST AS GOOD OF LEUNG HEU KNEW ABOUT IT AND TOLD THIS STORY TO MY SIFU .
MY SIFU STARTED WITH NG CHAN SEVERAL YEARS AFTER LEUNG HEU ,AND HE NEVER MET HIM .BUT
NG CHAN TOLD HIM THAT HE WILL BE THE SECOND AND THE LAST ONE TO RECEIVED HIS TEACHING.
SO AT THE DIFFERENCE OF LEUNG HEU ,MY SIFU WAS LIVING AT NG CHAN HOME LIKE HIMSELF LIVED WITH IP MAN.
THE FRIEND OF IP MAN WAS TAKING CARE OF HIM AS WELL AND EVEN TOLD HIM THAT HE WAS MUCH MORE PRECISE THAN LEUNG HEU.HE WAS TRAINING MUCH MORE
ANYWAY ,BECAUSE NG CHAN KNEW VERY WELL THE PERSONALITY OF MY SIFU AND BECAUSE HE WANTED CERTAINLY THE WING CHUN TO FIND MORE OPEN SPACE HE NEVER ASKED HIM TO DO THE OATH.

IT MEANS THAT LEUNG HEU IS THE GUY WHO CANNOT NOT SPEAK ABOUT ANYTHING HE KNOWS AND IS AS MUCH OFFICIAL IN THE WING CHUN HISTORY AS LEUNG CHAN OR IP MAN
OTHERS DIFFERENCES WITH MY SIFU :HE HOLD A COPY OF A BOOK THAT RELATE ALL THE FACTS CONCERNING THE WING CHUN, AND THE MISSIONS THEY ACCOMPLISHED,ALL THE DRUGS TO BE USED AND PERHAPS SOME SPECIAL TECHNICS(???)
BY THE WAY ,ITS NOT ALLOWED NORMALY IN ORIGINAL WING CHUN TO CALL THE ONE FROM WHO YOU RECEIVE THE TECHNIC SIFU

[MOSHE]

For the one ,who ask the question about learning how to use the long pole and the knives

dont loose your time and money,
these technics will not help you to improve your hands works and even you can be sure that nobody that you know ,master these technics

of course ,you see them perfoming some movements in the air but so what ?
They dont know to provide the strength to the weapon to make them efficients and to use it properly
simply because ip man never disclose these technics to people allowed to put it in the street

make a test

take a pole ( the right one is 3.03 meters) hit with all the power you can by the side the knives of the guy in front of you
what will happen ?
The knives will fall
what should happen ,if the guy master it:
This one should bring the strength from his hands the end of the blade ,hit the pole with a very strong vibration which one will spread along the pole till the hand of the one holding the pole,and will broke his hand

concerning the strength of the pole :

Put an olive nucleus on the ground, you bring all the strength to extremity of the pole and only there ,
you hit with the same vibration the olive nucleus and it should not rip from there but should burst on the spot where you put it

like i was saying before if the weapons dont bring any advantage to you hands technics
it is impossible to master these weapons with a physical strength

sorry for the english

[Vajramusti]

For the one ,who ask the question about learning how to use the long pole and the knives

dont loose your time and money,
these technics will not help you to improve your hands works and even you can be sure that nobody that you know ,master these technics

of course ,you see them perfoming some movements in the air but so what ?
They dont know to provide the strength to the weapon to make them efficients and to use it properly
simply because ip man never disclose these technics to people allowed to put it in the street

make a test

take a pole ( the right one is 3.03 meters) hit with all the power you can by the side the knives of the guy in front of you
what will happen ?
The knives will fall
what should happen ,if the guy master it:
This one should bring the strength from his hands the end of the blade ,hit the pole with a very strong vibration which one will spread along the pole till the hand of the one holding the pole,and will broke his hand

concerning the strength of the pole :

Put an olive nucleus on the ground, you bring all the strength to extremity of the pole and only there ,
you hit with the same vibration the olive nucleus and it should not rip from there but should burst on the spot where you put it

like i was saying before if the weapons dont bring any advantage to you hands technics
it is impossible to master these weapons with a physical strength

sorry for the english

----------------------------
Good points Moshe. The problem is that you apparently think (wrongly) that Ng Chan only had a secret handshake. Your English was clear enough in this post... less so in the one before the last.

joy

[WC1277]

For the one ,who ask the question about learning how to use the long pole and the knives

dont loose your time and money,
these technics will not help you to improve your hands works and even you can be sure that nobody that you know ,master these technics

of course ,you see them perfoming some movements in the air but so what ?
They dont know to provide the strength to the weapon to make them efficients and to use it properly
simply because ip man never disclose these technics to people allowed to put it in the street

make a test

take a pole ( the right one is 3.03 meters) hit with all the power you can by the side the knives of the guy in front of you
what will happen ?
The knives will fall
what should happen ,if the guy master it:
This one should bring the strength from his hands the end of the blade ,hit the pole with a very strong vibration which one will spread along the pole till the hand of the one holding the pole,and will broke his hand

concerning the strength of the pole :

Put an olive nucleus on the ground, you bring all the strength to extremity of the pole and only there ,
you hit with the same vibration the olive nucleus and it should not rip from there but should burst on the spot where you put it

like i was saying before if the weapons dont bring any advantage to you hands technics
it is impossible to master these weapons with a physical strength

sorry for the english

Moshe, you continue to be insulting in your posts....

While there are many different reasons why certain lineages do things differently, the majority of them are not because ip man intentionally lied to them...

Fong Sifu did a demo one time where someone swung a pole at him. He broke the pole in half by using the snapping motion of a Wu sau which is the same way you can generate power with the butterfly knives. Your stating things you know nothing about moshe...

[MOSHE]

[QUOTE=WC1277;1116259]Moshe, you continue to be insulting in your posts....

While there are many different reasons why certain lineages do things differently, the majority of them are not because ip man intentionally lied to them...


I NEVER SAID THAT HE LIED.
JUST SAY THAT HE WAS TEACHING IN ONE SIDE LEUNG BIK AND ON THE OTHER SIDE SHA WA SON

[MOSHE]

[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1116254]----------------------------
Good points Moshe. The problem is that you apparently think (wrongly) that Ng Chan only had a secret handshake.

OF WHAT I KNOW ,HE GAVE THE LEUNG BIK VERSION TO KOR FU IN CHINA AND LATER ON TO NG CHAN IN HONG KONG

I YOU KNOW MORE ,SHARE IT WITH FACTS ,LIKE IM TRYING

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1116254]----------------------------
Good points Moshe. The problem is that you apparently think (wrongly) that Ng Chan only had a secret handshake.

OF WHAT I KNOW ,HE GAVE THE LEUNG BIK VERSION TO KOR FU IN CHINA AND LATER ON TO NG CHAN IN HONG KONG

I YOU KNOW MORE ,SHARE IT WITH FACTS ,LIKE IM TRYING
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Moshe- your opinions (borrowed or original) outnumber the facts.

Yes- there are some bad mok jongs, yes that IM preferred the narrower rather than the wider dos,
yes without knowing ones body and hand structures and dynamics one does not get the maximum wing chun benefits from the kwan or the do. Ng Chan is not the only one who knew that.
Your repetitious posts are not really unique or revealing to some or perhaps many.

joy chaudhuri

[kung fu fighter]

[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1116254]----------------------------
OF WHAT I KNOW ,HE GAVE THE LEUNG BIK VERSION TO KOR FU IN CHINA AND LATER ON TO NG CHAN IN HONG KONG

Is KOR FU the same person as Kwok Fu?

Are you referring to this guy http://www.wcarchive.com/images/sifus/k/kwok-fu-1s.jpg

[MOSHE]

[QUOTE=MOSHE;1116279]

Is KOR FU the same person as Kwok Fu?

Are you referring to this guy http://www.wcarchive.com/images/sifus/k/kwok-fu-1s.jpg

YES

[MOSHE]

[

###Fong Sifu did a demo one time where someone swung a pole at him. He broke the pole in half by using the snapping motion of a Wu sau which is the same way you can generate power with the butterfly knives. ###
WC

FOR YOUR INFO ,THE POLE SHOULD BE MADE OF HARD WOOD ,SO NO FLEXIBLE.
SO CERTAINLY THE POLE YOU ARE SPEAKING ABOUT BROKE BY HIS OWN WEIGHT BECAUSE OF HIS FLEXIBILITY

[MOSHE]

""""Yes- there are some bad mok jongs, yes that IM preferred the narrower rather than the wider dos,
yes without knowing ones body and hand structures and dynamics one does not get the maximum wing chun benefits from the kwan or the do. Ng Chan is not the only one who knew that.
Your repetitious posts are not really unique or revealing to some or perhaps many."""
Vajramusti


BECAUSE I WANT PEOPLE TO UNDERSTAND THAT REGARDING THE ORIGINAL WING CHUN THERE IS
ONLY ONE WAY TO PUNCH
ONLY ONE WAY TO DO ANY MOVEMENT AND ONE NAME FOR EACH ONE
ONLY ONE WAY WAY TO HIT THE DUMMY

ONLY ONE WAY TO DEVELOP THE STRENGTH (NOT MASCULINE)
AND SO ON

AND NOW YOU SEE IN THE STREET 100 DIFFERENTS WAYS FOR EACH MOVEMENT
PERHAPS CLOSE BUT FOR SHORT MOVEMENTS THATS A LOT

AND AT THE END ,YOU ARE USING PHYSICAL STRENGTH .
AND THAT NOT ANYMORE CLOSE TO ORIGINAL WING CHUN
THERE IS NO PROBLEM FOR ME ABOUT THAT, ORIGINAL WING IS TOO MUCH DANGEROUS, TO BE PUPLIC
BUT PEOPLE NOW ARE EVEN FAR FROM THE SHA WA SON WAY AND THEY WANT TO
TEACH THINGS THAT THEY DONT MASTER AND DONT UNDERSTAND

THATS FOOLISH


LETS DISCLOSE A LITTLE MORE :
IP MAN TOOK OFF A LOT OF KICKS FROM THE DUMMY TAO
AND THERE IS TAOS OF KICKS THAT HE RECEIVED FROM LEUNG BIK

...

[GlennR]

""""Yes- there are some bad mok jongs, yes that IM preferred the narrower rather than the wider dos,
yes without knowing ones body and hand structures and dynamics one does not get the maximum wing chun benefits from the kwan or the do. Ng Chan is not the only one who knew that.
Your repetitious posts are not really unique or revealing to some or perhaps many."""
Vajramusti


BECAUSE I WANT PEOPLE TO UNDERSTAND THAT REGARDING THE ORIGINAL WING CHUN THERE IS
ONLY ONE WAY TO PUNCH
ONLY ONE WAY TO DO ANY MOVEMENT AND ONE NAME FOR EACH ONE
ONLY ONE WAY WAY TO HIT THE DUMMY

ONLY ONE WAY TO DEVELOP THE STRENGTH (NOT MASCULINE)
AND SO ON

AND NOW YOU SEE IN THE STREET 100 DIFFERENTS WAYS FOR EACH MOVEMENT
PERHAPS CLOSE BUT FOR SHORT MOVEMENTS THATS A LOT

AND AT THE END ,YOU ARE USING PHYSICAL STRENGTH .
AND THAT NOT ANYMORE CLOSE TO ORIGINAL WING CHUN
THERE IS NO PROBLEM FOR ME ABOUT THAT, ORIGINAL WING IS TOO MUCH DANGEROUS, TO BE PUPLIC
BUT PEOPLE NOW ARE EVEN FAR FROM THE SHA WA SON WAY AND THEY WANT TO
TEACH THINGS THAT THEY DONT MASTER AND DONT UNDERSTAND

THATS FOOLISH


LETS DISCLOSE A LITTLE MORE :
IP MAN TOOK OFF A LOT OF KICKS FROM THE DUMMY TAO
AND THERE IS TAOS OF KICKS THAT HE RECEIVED FROM LEUNG BIK

...

Gee... its like 1986 all over again

[Vajramusti]

Gee... its like 1986 all over again
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Why 1986?

KFO posts seem to lean towards the cyclical theory of history.

Sometimes the actors change- but the play is the same-
again and again...

joy chaudhuri

[LoneTiger108]

THE REASON THAT WE KNOW FOR SURE ABOUT IT ,IS BECAUSE NG CHAN WAS VERY CLOSE TO ONE FRIEND OF HIM ,WHO WAS TRAINING AT THE SAME AS SOMEBODY CALLED LEUNG HEU...

Okay. Ng Chan knew someone that was training with a guy called Leung Hue (Chinese characters would be good!)

But you have not answered my question :confused:

You mention other stuff in later posts, some I agree with and some I do not, but you have not presented anything other than chat so far on what makes Ng Chan Wing Chun closer to an 'original' (if there ever can be such a thing!) which can also sound like typical marketing trash talk imho.

It sounds like Ng Chan may have a copy of Leung Jans medical book, which I have been told from a reliable source that there are no 'special techniques' hidden in the pages. It's just a herbal recipe book for treating a wide range of injuries caused in the training hall. My Sigung Lee Shing also specialized in the 'herbs'. He was a professional restauranteur too which gave him access to the best chefs and kitchens! But all that's just TCM, and as important it 'can be' to some it still is no closer to solid evidence.

Chan Wah Shun and Wong Wah Bo had different teaching styles and Leung Bik is still just a mystery propogated by Ip Chun in the 2nd movie. I still have seen no hard evidence of his existence. No photos, no family.

What is Ng Chans curriculum? Share some examples of his teachings and we might be on to something here... ;)

[MOSHE]

[
What is Ng Chans curriculum? Share some examples of his teachings and we might be on to something here... ;)[/QUOTE]


I SEE THAT ALL THESE THINGS ARE DIFFICULT TO UNDERSTAND FOR PEOPLE ,BECAUSE THEY HAVE NEVER BEEN IN CONTACT WITH THIS ORIGINAL WING CHUN.

SO ITS DIFFICULT TO IMAGINE .

I SIMPLY AND FRIENDLY PROPOSE YOU OR ANYONE ,TO COME TO MY PLACE TO TOUCH MY ARMS ,TO FEEL THE DIFFERENCE.OR TO LOOK HOW I HIT THE DUMMY

IF YOU ARE DISAPOINTED I PAY BACK THE TRIP

BUT ONLY IN ECONOMIC :)

[LoneTiger108]

I SEE THAT ALL THESE THINGS ARE DIFFICULT TO UNDERSTAND FOR PEOPLE ,BECAUSE THEY HAVE NEVER BEEN IN CONTACT WITH THIS ORIGINAL WING CHUN.

SO ITS DIFFICULT TO IMAGINE .

I SIMPLY AND FRIENDLY PROPOSE YOU OR ANYONE ,TO COME TO MY PLACE TO TOUCH MY ARMS ,TO FEEL THE DIFFERENCE.OR TO LOOK HOW I HIT THE DUMMY

IF YOU ARE DISAPOINTED I PAY BACK THE TRIP

BUT ONLY IN ECONOMIC :)

Sorry dude, but that's a total cop-out! :D

I make you the same offer ;)

And before you jump on the 'I have the original Wing Chun' band wagon and ask all of us to shell out for trips to China, at least have the common decency to answer a simple question or at least upload a clip of your infamous wooden man methods :)

And I was very interested in your Sifu...

[Vajramusti]

Some opinions FWIW on this long thread and I will try to be out of here::
1. Thx to Moshe for beginning a discussion on Ng Chan.
2. No thanks to Moshe on his insufficiently researched comments on everyone else's wing chun.
3. Ki Ping pun appears to have a good stance in his pic.
4. Thx to kung fu fighter for the links to Ng Chan's motions.
5. Ng Chan was obviously a good student of Ip man- but there were others.
6. He does have a kwan sao in his opening!
7. Thx to Muteki for his earlier comments.
8. No-I am not hopping on a plane for Israel- or Germany either- Arizona despite the recent massive dust storms in Phoenix and the heat will do.

Cheers,

joy chaudhuri

[MOSHE]

[ at least have the common decency to answer a simple question or at least upload a clip of your infamous wooden man methods :)

And I was very interested in your Sifu...[/QUOTE]


SO PLEASE ASK A PRECISE QUESTION BECAUSE IM NOT SURE TU UNDERSTAND I

KI PING PUN DOESNT WANT THAT I POST A VIDEO ,HE THINKS THAT PEOPLE WILL SEE ONLY MOVEMENTS (LIKE THEY SEEM LOOKING AT THE VIDEOS FROM NG CHAN AND IP MAN) AND NOT THE FLOW OF STRENGTH ,THE STANCE... THE KNOW HOW ...

REGARDS

[MOSHE]

[Q
2. No thanks to Moshe on his insufficiently researched comments on everyone else's wing chun.

joy chaudhuri[/QUOTE]

PLEASE SEND TO US ANY CLIP ,YOU THINK GOOD

AND WE WILL EXPLAIN WHERE ARE THE PROBLEMS

REGARDS

[MOSHE]

Concerning Leung bik
Several time ip man told ng chan that when he was showing things ,he was stopping in the middle ,seems hesitating , because he was going against his own habit just to show sha wah son way
Once again that's why just his stance and flow of his arms are right in his video

Ip man told him as well that Leung bik made a lot of fight using each time just 2 or 3 movements. He was not so nice , quite tough not like Leung chan

[GlennR]

-------------------------------------------------------------------
Why 1986?

KFO posts seem to lean towards the cyclical theory of history.

Sometimes the actors change- but the play is the same-
again and again...

joy chaudhuri

And thats my point (i just plucked 1986 out of the air).... isnt this just someone else saying best, first, original etc

[Vajramusti]

And thats my point (i just plucked 1986 out of the air).... isnt this just someone else saying best, first, original etc
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
YUP!

joy

[k gledhill]

You never know, there may be a best, original, version....how would you know unless it came to you personally ? Do you travel, try out other lineages, or stay within the confines of your , local gym, state, country, etc... If you dont meet new people, or break out of the, my way or the highway, or loyal to sifu way.
Keep an open mind, you never know what new idea someone may put in it .

[GlennR]

You never know, there may be a best, original, version....how would you know unless it came to you personally ? Do you travel, try out other lineages, or stay within the confines of your , local gym, state, country, etc... If you dont meet new people, or break out of the, my way or the highway, or loyal to sifu way.
Keep an open mind, you never know what new idea someone may put in it .

Is that you being open minded Kevin!?!? ;)

[MOSHE]

is that you being open minded kevin!?!? ;)

on any clip ,i can explain to you ,what the difference with something original
choose something ,you think very good
a tao
a shi sao ...

Regards

and with more objectivity ,you should read again what i posted ,and what i argued ,they are relevant points, regarding a self evaluation of your wing chun

regards

[MOSHE]

Keep an open mind, you never know what new idea someone may put in it .[/QUOTE]



IN THIS THREAD ,I SPOKE ABOUT STRENGTH
LEVERAGE
WOODEN DUMMY
SHI SAO
KICKS
WEAPONS
ROOTS OF WING CHUN
ETC...
NO CONCRETE FEED BACK ON THAT

IM NOT TRYING TO DISTURB ANY BUSINESS IF THERE IS FEW TEACHER OR WING CHUN READING THIS THREAD ,AND WHO ARE JUST NOT STOPPING WRITING THAT WHAT I WRITE IS NOT TRUE
BUT WITHOUT ANSWERING ANYTHING INNOVATIVE

[GlennR]

Keep an open mind, you never know what new idea someone may put in it .



IN THIS THREAD ,I SPOKE ABOUT STRENGTH
LEVERAGE
WOODEN DUMMY
SHI SAO
KICKS
WEAPONS
ROOTS OF WING CHUN
ETC...
NO CONCRETE FEED BACK ON THAT

IM NOT TRYING TO DISTURB ANY BUSINESS IF THERE IS FEW TEACHER OR WING CHUN READING THIS THREAD ,AND WHO ARE JUST NOT STOPPING WRITING THAT WHAT I WRITE IS NOT TRUE
BUT WITHOUT ANSWERING ANYTHING INNOVATIVE[/QUOTE]

What do you want? Applause?

Honestly, not only is what you write nonsense for the most part (real style etc) its just boring

If you want innovative replies, start by being innovative yourself

[MOSHE]

Your reaction is just pathetic

[GlennR]

Your reaction is just pathetic


There goes that innovation again

[k gledhill]

Is that you being open minded Kevin!?!? ;)

Ive left the frog well a long time ago...a cricket fell in and I listened....
I have visited other wells.....

[LoneTiger108]

SO PLEASE ASK A PRECISE QUESTION BECAUSE IM NOT SURE TU UNDERSTAND I

KI PING PUN DOESNT WANT THAT I POST A VIDEO ,HE THINKS THAT PEOPLE WILL SEE ONLY MOVEMENTS (LIKE THEY SEEM LOOKING AT THE VIDEOS FROM NG CHAN AND IP MAN) AND NOT THE FLOW OF STRENGTH ,THE STANCE... THE KNOW HOW ...

REGARDS

It's cool if your teacher doesn't want to upload a video, but I'm asking YOU to. Even if it's just a simple version of SLT, it would be good to see where our similarities are imho.

And I can't ask a more simple question; what is your curriculum? :confused:

But maybe it is better to ask: Do you practise the 3 forms? 108 Wooden Man? Knife and pole forms? Or is your curriculum more like the mainland/Kulo Sansau methods?

[k gledhill]

It's cool if your teacher doesn't want to upload a video, but I'm asking YOU to. Even if it's just a simple version of SLT, it would be good to see where our similarities are imho.

And I can't ask a more simple question; what is your curriculum? :confused:

But maybe it is better to ask: Do you practise the 3 forms? 108 Wooden Man? Knife and pole forms? Or is your curriculum more like the mainland/Kulo Sansau methods?

Whats the strategy, tactics,how do you implement lin sil di da?