How many of YM's students fought??

[Phil Redmond]

I ask this because a student asked me. It is an honest question.
Actually I was glad he asked me. He's interested in fighting and like me feels that one needs to learn fighting from someone with fighting experience. I'd even ask how many WC people from any lineage fought?

[Ironmike]

I was told by my Sifu that the Ho Kam Ming and Fong lineage were fighters. They fought in full contact fights all over Asia. I am sure there are many others.

[Phil Redmond]

That's good too know. I keep getting comments on our student's fight clips saying that WC wasn't made for full contact. :rolleyes:

[TenTigers]

yeah, but comments from who?
"The moon is not affected by the baying of wolves"
There will always be people who never put in the time and proper training to make their Gung-Fu effective, whether it be in the ring or the street.
It's funny how these are usually the ones who have the most to say.

[couch]

yeah, but comments from who?
"The moon is not affected by the baying of wolves"
There will always be people who never put in the time and proper training to make their Gung-Fu effective, whether it be in the ring or the street.
It's funny how these are usually the ones who have the most to say.

True.

"Those who know do not talk. Those who talk do not know." - Chapter 56, Tao Te Ching

[m1k3]

yeah, but comments from who?
"The moon is not affected by the baying of wolves"
There will always be people who never put in the time and proper training to make their Gung-Fu effective, whether it be in the ring or the street.
It's funny how these are usually the ones who have the most to say.

This seems to go with the number of people, including some in this forum, who say what Alan Orr's people do is not Wing Chun.

[Pacman]

i am one of those people. perhaps the only one, but i am open minded.

i asked if someone could please point out in the videos one instance where any WC fighting principle is used, because i see none.

and before someone says "loy lau hui sung", that means more than just being aggressive or else any unskilled fighter who just rushes in could be said to follow that principle.

[Frost]

i am one of those people. perhaps the only one, but i am open minded.

i asked if someone could please point out in the videos one instance where any WC fighting principle is used, because i see none.

and before someone says "loy lau hui sung", that means more than just being aggressive or else any unskilled fighter who just rushes in could be said to follow that principle.

how can a style that is meant to be so efficent and effective then have so little prove of it working on tape, why do you think this is?

[YungChun]

how can a style that is meant to be so efficent and effective then have so little prove of it working on tape, why do you think this is?

Why do so many WCK fights, where someone tries to show later how various WCK techniques were used, don't even have any plain old vanilla WCK (chung choi) punches in them?? Is it that hard to use WCK punches?

Beats me.. I have no trouble using those punches..

[Frost]

Why do so many WCK fights, where someone tries to show later how various WCK techniques were used, don't even have any plain old vanilla WCK (chung choi) punches in them?? Is it that hard to use WCK punches?

Beats me.. I have no trouble using those punches..

then show us it working, or point to a clip of it working, thats all people are asking for.

its all well and good people saying that it works and they can make it work, but in this day and age surely one or two videos must be around of people using what evryone agrees is good wing chun, hell we see enough demos of good wing chun and enough videos of what people call bad wing chun in fights wheres the good stuff in action?

[goju]

how can a style that is meant to be so efficent and effective then have so little prove of it working on tape, why do you think this is?

the lovely "mc dojo"phenomenon has ruined pretty much every martial art

[Ultimatewingchun]

Against a skilled fighter it can work well if and when you've gained a position at very close quarters - and against a scrub it can work well from just about anywhere.

But imo, against a skilled fighter, (ie.- boxing, kickboxing, Muay Thai, some karate, wrestling, etc.) - some longer range type moves that don't really exist in wing chun, per se...are in order so as to get to close quarters without being picked off first with boxing type punches, or possibly kicks, or a shoot to the legs, or whatever.

I use boxing leads, crosses, round punches, overhands, etc. to get in close (and possibly some long range kicks)...and then drop my elbows down-and-in...and go to work with vertical fist blasts frequently when I spar with guys who are good at the kinds of arts I've mentioned.

No vids to show of this right now, as I'm in a major transition looking for a new school location, but will try to post something on this in the future.

[Frost]

the lovely "mc dojo"phenomenon has ruined pretty much every martial art

Not really BJJ clubs, Thai clubs, boxing clubs, judo schools full contact karate schools can all point to videos of guys using there stuff in competition looking exactly like they do in training ...even if mc dojo is to blame there must be a few schools that spar and have the good stuff if not then the whole style must be brought into question surely?

[goju]

Not really BJJ clubs, Thai clubs, boxing clubs, judo schools full contact karate schools can all point to videos of guys using there stuff in competition looking exactly like they do in training ...even if mc dojo is to blame there must be a few schools that spar and have the good stuff if not then the whole style must be brought into question surely?

those are still very few

ive seen plenty of lousy boxing and thai clubs out there

and no the style shouldnt be brought under question the way its taught andf who is teaching it should

[Frost]

those are still very few

seen plenty of lousy boxing and thai clubs out there

No actually there are lots of good thai and boxing gyms, hell i live in the middle of nowwhere and i can find three thai gyms run by proven fighters and two good boxing gyms (one of which randy turpin and his brothers trained in), and 2 judo clubs both with good competition records.......

But thats not the point the point is regardless of what you or i say about the state of thai, boxing or BJJ the fact is i can post dozens of clips of good thai guys using there art, same for boxing and judo etc, i can post hundreds of them a quick youtube search throws them up, yet there is not 1 good video of wing chun that guys on this forum can agree is good wing chun in action.... don't you find that a bit odd?

[Frost]

Against a skilled fighter it can work well if and when you've gained a position at very close quarters - and against a scrub it can work well from just about anywhere.

But imo, against a skilled fighter, (ie.- boxing, kickboxing, Muay Thai, some karate, wrestling, etc.) - some longer range type moves that don't really exist in wing chun, per se...are in order so as to get to close quarters without being picked off first with boxing type punches, or possibly kicks, or a shoot to the legs, or whatever.

I use boxing leads, crosses, round punches, overhands, etc. to get in close (and possibly some long range kicks)...and then drop my elbows down-and-in...and go to work with vertical fist blasts frequently when I spar with guys who are good at the kinds of arts I've mentioned.

No vids to show of this right now, as I'm in a major transition looking for a new school location, but will try to post something on this in the future.

thanks for the honest answer victor, so you see wing chun as primarily a close range system that you should train alongside other arts to make it effective?

[goju]

1 good video of wing chun that guys on this forum can agree is good wing chun in action.... don't you find that a bit odd?

not really especially considering its the internet this type of arguement comes up regularly with different things:D

[Pacman]

But imo, against a skilled fighter, (ie.- boxing, kickboxing, Muay Thai, some karate, wrestling, etc.) - some longer range type moves that don't really exist in wing chun, per se...are in order so as to get to close quarters without being picked off first with boxing type punches, or possibly kicks, or a shoot to the legs, or whatever.


i know we've talked about this many times but i really dont like the blanket statement that wing chun does not have the ability to let the practitioner get close

aside from my own personally experience and ability to name the moves that exist, it doesn't make sense logically, assuming that the developers have half a brain, that would develop an art where it cant be utilized except in a predetermined situation

the only exception to this rule are sport MAs where rules dictate the art and have seperated a portion of the art to use in sport as TKD or even sport BJJ

not trying to be a pedantic @$$hole like terrence, but i think it would be fair to say that you have not learned a WC that can get you into the inside, but there is WC that can

being specific, there are many WC lineages that turn the body when punching and do not stand square towards the opponent but have a slight lead off stance. This gives it the reach equivalent in boxing.

[Pacman]

Not really BJJ clubs, Thai clubs, boxing clubs, judo schools full contact karate schools can all point to videos of guys using there stuff in competition looking exactly like they do in training ...even if mc dojo is to blame there must be a few schools that spar and have the good stuff if not then the whole style must be brought into question surely?

exactly, because they have competitions which serves as a type of quality control and motivator for people to train effectively instead of just recreationally

WC has no such thing

As a result you have people who don't know wtf they are talking about because anyone can call himself "Sifu" or "Master". Who is going to call them out and challenge him if he is a nice guy and not talking mad ish?

KF Sifus these days are like Real Estate Agents or CFPs. Anybody can be one with barely any qualifications and the average one has no idea what they are talking about.

btw, there are vids of people sparring with WC just like they train out there. but whether they are "good" or "bad" will always be up for discussion. the reason being that everybody's WC is different.

[Ultimatewingchun]

thanks for the honest answer victor, so you see wing chun as primarily a close range system that you should train alongside other arts to make it effective?

***INDEED, I've been saying exactly that on this forum for a good five years or so now.

In a close quarters street environment wing chun, as is, can work very well against most people. But it is a close range fighting system, and once there's an open space to work with, and you're up against someone with good boxing skills, for example...

longer range moves are needed to get to wing chun range. The same against a good kickboxer, karate fighter, etc. That's been my observation (of others) and my direct personal experience sparring with people.

[Vajramusti]

I understand Victor's oft repeated position- but my own position remains different- but our stances, footwork , strategy and tactics are also likely to be different.

On the point made by someone else- many good wing chun folks are not on this list, and not on U tube and don't spend time convincing forum skeptics.

IMO- there are no fixed ranges-you can adjust your footwork depending on the range, angle and distance and line relationships between the opponents.

On Phil's question-

Quite a few people I know have tested their skills in full contact and in self defense and against
"resisting" opponents..

joy chaudhuri

[Phil Redmond]

i am one of those people. perhaps the only one, but i am open minded.

i asked if someone could please point out in the videos one instance where any WC fighting principle is used, because i see none.

and before someone says "loy lau hui sung", that means more than just being aggressive or else any unskilled fighter who just rushes in could be said to follow that principle.
People who know TWC can clearly see it here:
http://www.youtube.com/user/sifupr#p/u/8/M1bSkRY3iWI

[Phil Redmond]

. . . . . some longer range type moves that don't really exist in wing chun, per se...
They do exist. :)

[Ultimatewingchun]

Yes, some do exist. You're right, and you and I know very well about one particular wing chun system that has more longer range concepts and moves than most other systems, now don't we?

But my contention is that against a really skilled boxer/kickboxer/Thai boxer type - there are limitations within EVERY wing chun system, per se....about getting to its preferred range and dominating the fight.

The single biggest reason, imo, why so many wing chun fighters (regardless of lineage) are often accused of looking like boxers, kickboxers, or JKD guys; that is, those that spar/fight frequently, or go into competitions.

They look that way because quite often that's what it's going to take to get in close enough to do a more "conventional" looking wing chun.

[YungChun]

aside from my own personally experience and ability to name the moves that exist, it doesn't make sense logically, assuming that the developers have half a brain, that would develop an art where it cant be utilized except in a predetermined situation
{snip}
being specific, there are many WC lineages that turn the body when punching and do not stand square towards the opponent but have a slight lead off stance. This gives it the reach equivalent in boxing.


I agree for the most part.. I never deal with ideas in such a ridged manner that would stop me from "blading" if I want or need to.

When you are on the inside square facing for use of VT methods is perfectly fine, but on the outside if you need to lead--do it. Folks who need to move a certain way and decide not to because they might break a rule are lost.

Also as you said there are loads of outside tools and tactics in all VT.. The centerline concepts can be applied on the outside as well as the inside albeit with changes. There are loads of leg moves and bridge tools as well that can assist in closing.

Most of all "we" the fighter has movement and tactics that IMO go beyond style.. When you compete in any kind of sport fighting all fighters must adapt these kinds of ubiquitous tactics of timing, deception, movement, cadence, trickery, etc..

In short I think it's up to the fighter to use whatever be it from VT or from another art.. If you want to use pure VT that's cool and if you want to be eclectic that's cool too but I see this as strictly a personal choice neither being superior.

[TenTigers]

Pardon my ignorance of WCK, but in the MYJ set there are many instances where you are not facing square, but are positioned (if even momentarally) in a lead stance. Of course, when the rear hand comes into play, the body does indeed turn and face-but don't we all to apply torquing power? This seems to have been ignored? Yes? No?

[Phil Redmond]

Yes, some do exist. You're right, and you and I know very well about one particular wing chun system that has more longer range concepts and moves than most other systems, now don't we?

But my contention is that against a really skilled boxer/kickboxer/Thai boxer type - there are limitations within EVERY wing chun system, per se....about getting to its preferred range and dominating the fight.

The single biggest reason, imo, why so many wing chun fighters (regardless of lineage) are often accused of looking like boxers, kickboxers, or JKD guys; that is, those that spar/fight frequently, or go into competitions.

They look that way because quite often that's what it's going to take to get in close enough to do a more "conventional" looking wing chun.
I guess our WC isn't "conventional" then. ;) Plus we don't need boxing to work against boxers.
You know who we train with right? I can pick you up one weekend, bring you to South Jersey and drive you back to the city so you can meet the people I'm talking about. We haven't hung out in a while anyway.

[anerlich]

i know we've talked about this many times but i really dont like the blanket statement that wing chun does not have the ability to let the practitioner get close

I don't think it's that so much as the notion that WC's forte is in the range where you can contact the opponent with both hands. Most WC I've seen certainly has at least some tools for getting into this preferred range with minimum risk and maximum cover. Certainly better tools than some grapplers did in the early UFC days (run at the guy and try to clinch and hope he doesn't knock you out on the way in).

If that is accepted (and it's up to each of us to decide that) the next question is whether to use the WC tools to close range and develop these to a high level, or whether applying tools from another source might be more effective at long range (or at clinch range).

IMO Wing Chun is not final or complete. It is a framework, not a cage.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Do you mean something like this, Phil?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jt3rOtqnnDk


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzlDFKNoJ2M


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CtbeFKeJpkc&feature=PlayList&p=77949D1DB771F9A9&playnext_from=PL&playnext=1&index=58

.........................

Or perhaps this recent one of Adrian Luke Sinclair? (Who started out as my student in TWC back in the day, and who now trains TWC with Rahsun Herkul...pick this one up at 1:40 into the vid):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNo4Gas2A4I

IS THIS WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT?

[Phil Redmond]

Do you mean something like this, Phil?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jt3rOtqnnDk


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzlDFKNoJ2M


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CtbeFKeJpkc&feature=PlayList&p=77949D1DB771F9A9&playnext_from=PL&playnext=1&index=58

.........................

Or perhaps this recent one of Adrian Luke Sinclair? (Who started out as my student in TWC back in the day...pick this one up at 1:40 into the vid):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNo4Gas2A4I

IS THIS WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT?

No, I meant with the Keith's guys that train with the pro boxer I told you about.
It would be good to hang out with your kung fu brothers anyway. Also, Sifu will in in NJ around the 20th of April and he's doing seminar on the 24th and 25th. You coming?

[chusauli]

The topic is how many of YM's students fought... sometimes I think of these questions as "How many of YM's students were juvenile delinquents with emotional/insecurity problems?...How many thugs did YM teach?...or perhaps, How many of YM's students have committed aggravated assault?"

Many times these forums with their talking of street effectiveness or effectiveness in fighting is stupid. One studies martial arts, and in the eyes of the law, if you really fight with it, you are committing aggravated assault, especially if you have gone beyond self defense.

And the chat sometimes here gets real silly, taunts, challenges, wanting to duel, libel, verbal assault - one wonders if we live in the old West or 21st century.

[chusauli]

Another way to look at it is:

"How many of you commit crimes and don't want to be a law abiding citizen?" :)

[YungChun]

Totally.. They should all be rounded up and whipped with a wet noodle...:p:o;):D

[punchdrunk]

you do not need to be a criminal to use your Wing Chun, in fact there are many careers and professions that require the use of force. At this time it is very easy for weekend warriors to test themselves fairly safely at other schools, inter school sparring has become common at contact schools. In the past schools had matches as well but they are not the "death matches" on roof tops that many made them out to be. They had judges and ref's and people to step in for participants best interests if the need should arise. There always have been students that want to try things on unsuspecting easy marks... maybe they choose that because they feel it is safer than other trained people? Their skill level will of course reflect their lack of quality experience. Who would you rather train with.. R. Couture or the MMA fan that beats up drunken college students at night clubs?

[bennyvt]

sounds like the propestive of someone that doesn't fight and is making excuses as to why he hasn't.

[chusauli]

Sounds like someone who is fantasizing themselves as a "fighter", lacks emotional maturity, and doesn't realize the consequences of their actions... and a poor speller. Perhaps too many blows to the head in "realistic training". :)

I'm not saying there is no time to fight, or that if you do it you shouldn't win or that one should train unrealistically.

Many of Yip Man's early students who did fight, fought against other martial arts enthusiasts or gangsters. But many of the real fights could have been avoided...had HK in the 1950's been tougher on the youth, there would have been greater consequences.

Gang rape in prisons happen. So as much bravado as you got, even tigers have to sleep.

[sanjuro_ronin]

If people want to fight there are many venues open to them to do that, even with limited or no rules even.
That was not always the case.
People fight more now then they ever did because it is more socially acceptble to do so.

[Liddel]

From what im told, for many of the earlier students you needed three fights under your belt to progress.

There were times that my sifu and WSL would go with Lok Yiu to other schools to fight, many of which were competing schools in the same area.

My Sifu was asked on more than one occasion by Ip to go to test another Wing Chun schools sifu as he was sharing cool aid and making claims about his VT vs Ip Man style VT. (History doesnt change much there lol)

From all accounts there were no arrests as all were consenting adults and many were known in the local community by police as being Martial artists.

Some were full contact most were no head shots.

[shawchemical]

Sounds like someone who is fantasizing themselves as a "fighter", lacks emotional maturity, and doesn't realize the consequences of their actions... and a poor speller. Perhaps too many blows to the head in "realistic training". :)

I'm not saying there is no time to fight, or that if you do it you shouldn't win or that one should train unrealistically.

Many of Yip Man's early students who did fight, fought against other martial arts enthusiasts or gangsters. But many of the real fights could have been avoided...had HK in the 1950's been tougher on the youth, there would have been greater consequences.

Gang rape in prisons happen. So as much bravado as you got, even tigers have to sleep.

Wow. I think the insecurity may just be a character trait you suffer from, not benny.

Sweat at training to avoid bleeding on the streets. YOu have a very twisted view of the world if you believe that taking necessary steps to defend yourself, your family or the citizen who cannot defend themselves without grabbing a gun or a blade is an aggravated assault.

Fighting is not always assault, nor is the person who fights always a juvenile delinquent or a criminal. Benny is right in his assessment that your justification of not testing the effectiveness of your training in REAL combat sounds more like someone trying to justify their lack of willingness to fight, or their utter cowardice.

Unless you have pressure tested the gross motor skills, and the application of them how on earth can you ever be confidant that they will work in a life or death situation??

You draw a long bow to link a fight to a potential gang rape in prison. I'm not saying they don't happen, but it seems as though you have been watching far too many episodes of OZ, and have been convinced that it is a true reflection of what goes on in prison. If you end up in prison, you can always choose solitary confinement.

There was a scroll on the wall of our school which said, (i paraphrase, the exact wording escapes me) "Unless you are prepared not only to fight, but to fight and win you can never truly defend yourself."

It's not about wanting to fight. It's about the realisation that in order to make the tools work for you when you need them, you need to know the intricacies of their application.

[sihing]

From what im told, for many of the earlier students you needed three fights under your belt to progress.

There were times that my sifu and WSL would go with Lok Yiu to other schools to fight, many of which were competing schools in the same area.

My Sifu was asked on more than one occasion by Ip to go to test another Wing Chun schools sifu as he was sharing cool aid and making claims about his VT vs Ip Man style VT. (History doesnt change much there lol)
From all accounts there were no arrests as all were consenting adults and many were known in the local community by police as being Martial artists.

Some were full contact most were no head shots.

Drew,

Just curious, what other Wing Chun schools were in Hong Kong around that time that weren't associated with Yip Man, I thought Yip brought it out of china and was the first? Besides Weng Chun and that clan.

James

[Liddel]

Drew,

Just curious, what other Wing Chun schools were in Hong Kong around that time that weren't associated with Yip Man, I thought Yip brought it out of china and was the first? Besides Weng Chun and that clan.

James

This is something i talked with sifu about years ago. But from what i recall the gist of it was after a visit and agreed fight the guy was a hybrid of Mainland VT and Hung Gar, so to be fair lets say he was a MMA er of the day :o

Apparently a side effect of VTs popularity in those days was kungfu schools teaching what they 'called VT' to draw in students, but in fact was something all together different or even worse was someone teaching what they had SEEN rather than what theyd been TAUGHT.

One of the times Sifu was asked to go to a school by Ip was to visit an ex student who although not reaching a teaching level in the eyes of Ip had opened his own school on the other side of town teaching VT.

Ip didnt like this.

DREW

[sihing]

Don't want to detrack to much from this meaningful and insightfull thread we have going here:rolleyes:, thanks Drew for you clairification:)

James

[Ironmike]

Phil asked a simple question and all you guys started with this complicated nonsense once again. I'm so tired of all you so called martial artists intellectualizing everything about wing chun. Go hit a wall bag and do some push ups, or better yet, got get into a real fight and shut the f up already!! Wing Chun is a simple style, remember that's one of its principles, and all I hear on this forum is a bunch of old lady bickering! Instead of making things complicated and confusing most of you need to go practice your first form, or go into a boxing gym and spar a seasoned boxer and get hit a little. Geez what have we become??

[dirtyrat]

phil asked a simple question and all you guys started with this complicated nonsense once again. I'm so tired of all you so called martial artists intellectualizing everything about wing chun. Go hit a wall bag and do some push ups, or better yet, got get into a real fight and shut the f up already!! Wing chun is a simple style, remember that's one of its principles, and all i hear on this forum is a bunch of old lady bickering! Instead of making things complicated and confusing most of you need to go practice your first form, or go into a boxing gym and spar a seasoned boxer and get hit a little. Geez what have we become??

yeeeeeeeeahh!!

[jflow78]

I would have chimed in a little earlier, I stumbled across this discussion a few days ago, but it took a couple days to activate my account. ANYway, this is going to sound ridiculous since I don't know anyone here and obviously there's not a way to verify this (short of contacting Sifu Colorado or any one of the instructors at his Kwoon), but I've seen video of Ron Heimberger (RIP) in about 10 different fights.

I was a student of Carlos Colorado (one of Sifu Heimberger's students) and he had a video that had recordings of Ron fighting several different people from several different brands of martial arts. I was a new student at the time, in Wing Chun, but had practiced kickboxing for about 6 years before and had limited exposure to JKD, so I had a LOT of questions as to how effective these things would have been in a real fight (though obviously I believed in the principles and the theory).

The thing I had the hardest time with was the whole "soft" thing, coming from an art where harder is better, and so a group of us were at Sifu Colorado's for a get together, and one of the older students brought up the video, so he pulled it out.

Several matches were done in one of Sifu Heimberger's previous clubs, and against other martial artists in town, it was somewhere in Idaho (sorry, I don't remember the exact town) where he first started teaching. The guys he fought included a Judo practitioner, a couple Karate pract.s, a pract. of another form of Kung Fu, I don't remember what else but it was a pretty broad spectrum. He had a couple grapplers but most of the guys were primarily standing strikers. He also had a guy just off the street who popped him hard enough to give Sifu a bloody nose. Then at the end of the video was a sparring session he did against a kickboxer who was supposed to be a champion in several competitions (according to Sifu Colorado).

(As an aside, Sifu Heimberger got in a lot of fights when he was first learning and teaching, because he was, in his own words, "dumb". He said he spent a lot of time trying to prove, to himself mostly, that he was better than such and such or that WC was better than THAT art, whatever it was at the time.)

The fights were interesting. Like I said, it's not as if Sifu Heimberger got away clean, he got hit, but the fights weren't close. Most of them ended quickly, right after Sifu was inside. The guy that did best against him was the street fighter, IMO. The kickboxer did good, and I remember more about this fight because it was the longest, but Sifu was fast enough (and I mean incredibly fast, especially in person) that the kickboxer had problems with his timing. One specific instance I still remember clearly was when the kickboxer was bouncing from toe to toe and as soon as his weight was being shifted to his front foot, Sifu kicked him in the thigh. You could hear the sound from the impact, and the guy went down, that was the last part of the fight and I'm not sure what happenned to him, but it didn't look good. As a former kickboxer, I can at least tell you that the guy was technically sound and looked good, but I can also say, he never would have seen the kick coming because Sifu was punching simultaneously and most of his focus would have been on the hands. It's just not something you often think about in kickboxing because it's extremely awkward to throw a punch and a kick on the same side (maybe a front kick and a jab, but there's not much power in it). Anyway, it was impressive, IMO.

I've looked for the video on the internet, but I'm not sure how many copies are out there, Sifu Colorado's is the only copy I've ever seen, and he's traditional enough that he rarely brings it out, even for his own students. He wants you to have faith in the system because you learn and feel it working, not because you see someone else succeed and then jump on the wagon. I can understand it, but I think it does give the perception that the art isn't for the street. However, I can say, after seeing that video, I can definitely attest that it works even against very good practitioners of other arts (at least I know the kickboxing guy was good).

I've had other experiences with it, but I was only able to take it from Sifu Colorado for about 6 months, then I joined the Air Force and since that time haven't lived anywhere near a legitimate Wing Chun Sifu, that I knew of (I'm in St. Louis now if there are any suggestions, but I can't find anyone here either, so far). I can say, from first hand experience, Sifu Heimberger was EXTREMELY skilled and faster than even Sifu Colorado (while I was with him). He would be one of those guys that's just naturally gifted, but then works his rear off to take himself as far as possible, like some MMA fighters.

So I can't say that any of those guys were at the same level as he was, but very few people that I've personally met have been. Of course, how many of us are ever going to be on the same level as a UFC champion or a Master of Wing Chun at anything? Not many. Our time is probably more constructively spent practicing our respective arts, or going to a class from another art to try it out, rather than trying to prove which one is superior. That's never going to happen, no art is going to win EVERY fight, not BJJ, not MT, not WC. There are lots of factors that go into a fight that could change the outcome ( for example a Black belt in BJJ vs a guy that's been doing WC for six months and vice versa).

I know the burden of evidence is on the Wing Chun practitioners, but most Wing Chun practitioners don't care, and traditionally the art is kind of secretive anyway, or has been for most of its existence. Give it some time and I'm sure you'll see some people using it in a broader spectrum. I don't, personally, see that as a good thing, because the longer I've thought about it, the more I recognize that I appreciate it's quiet anonymity.

Sorry this is so long, but I thought it was relative to the conversation, and hopefully the question. Oh, and Hi, I'm new.

[chusauli]

When people have experience fighting, its still not you fighting.

Yip Man may have defeated the fighters of his day, but it wasn't you, nor were his skills passed on to you from your sifu - it is your job, which is what I am getting at.

For example, Hawkins had his share of fights and challenge matches in HK and Australia, but I had my own share of fights and challenge matches in NYC and LA. If you look at it - Yip Man had his opponents in Futshan and HK, and all these opponents were all different people. How can situational experiences from different time frames be used in the moment of spontaneous combat NOW? You don't fight from memory...you fight now in the moment.

Yes, "sweat now, bleed less later"...I'm all for that. But does it really matter how many of Yip Man's students fought, when what counts is really your experience?

Its not what is passed down...it is what you do.

[Dale Dugas]

Excellent post Robert.

[Phil Redmond]

Phil asked a simple question and all you guys started with this complicated nonsense once again. I'm so tired of all you so called martial artists intellectualizing everything about wing chun. Go hit a wall bag and do some push ups, or better yet, got get into a real fight and shut the f up already!! Wing Chun is a simple style, remember that's one of its principles, and all I hear on this forum is a bunch of old lady bickering! Instead of making things complicated and confusing most of you need to go practice your first form, or go into a boxing gym and spar a seasoned boxer and get hit a little. Geez what have we become??
LOL....soft ??? I still say that if you haven't done some sparring/fighting against people from other styles intent on crushing you haven't done a martial "war" art. Of course I'm going to get some flack from people who will NEVER go and test what they do. But I can deal with that. :cool:
p.s. no offense to the hobbyists.

[jflow78]

Sorry, I didn't mean any offense with "soft". It's just what my Sifu said when I first came in to find out what Wing Chun was (a soft art). The term I should have used was relaxed. It took me a while to learn to allow my muscles to not be tense all the time, when punching and everything.

[wkmark]

I ask this because a student asked me. It is an honest question.
Actually I was glad he asked me. He's interested in fighting and like me feels that one needs to learn fighting from someone with fighting experience. I'd even ask how many WC people from any lineage fought?

Back in the days from what I read/recalled from the Yip Man Lineage, the fighters were:

Ho Kam Ming, Wong Shun Leung, Duncan Leung, William Cheung, Bruce Lee. These were the names that were constantly brought up. I am sure there are others, but i probably am not aware of them yet.

And from my Sifu Wong Shun Leung's comments, you have to fight in order to know what works and what doesn't.

[bennyvt]

did you learn off wsl. Cool. Im from that lineage through barry lee. Good to see another wsl guy here.

[wkmark]

did you learn off wsl. Cool. Im from that lineage through barry lee. Good to see another wsl guy here.

Bennyvt, yes i learned the basics off of Sifu Wong Shung Leung quite a while back. I have heard GREAT things about Barry Lee. Again, great to see you here.

[Phil Redmond]

Phil asked a simple question and all you guys started with this complicated nonsense once again. I'm so tired of all you so called martial artists intellectualizing everything about wing chun. Go hit a wall bag and do some push ups, or better yet, got get into a real fight and shut the f up already!! Wing Chun is a simple style, remember that's one of its principles, and all I hear on this forum is a bunch of old lady bickering! Instead of making things complicated and confusing most of you need to go practice your first form, or go into a boxing gym and spar a seasoned boxer and get hit a little. Geez what have we become??
I been so busy with the play and haven't been here a while but you just said a mouthful. I did WC because I wanted to fight period. I'm no hood or gangster but as a Marine I understood the "martial" in martial art. If I'd wanted just theory and form I'd have studied some form of Tai Chi (I'm not counting Chen).
I stand by the fact that to teach a martial art you have to have tried what you're teaching. Those who say that you don't need to know how to fight or have never fought are just fooling themselves and their students.

[Phil Redmond]

. . . . But does it really matter how many of Yip Man's students fought, . . .
It matters that people who can't fight teach fighting. I would learn swimming for someone who's never been in the water. You have your opinions and I'm not changing mine. If you can't fight you shouldn't be teaching fighting PERIOD.

[Phil Redmond]

Back in the days from what I read/recalled from the Yip Man Lineage, the fighters were:

Ho Kam Ming, Wong Shun Leung, Duncan Leung, William Cheung, Bruce Lee. These were the names that were constantly brought up. I am sure there are others, but i probably am not aware of them yet.

And from my Sifu Wong Shun Leung's comments, you have to fight in order to know what works and what doesn't.
WSL was spot on but there will be people who disagree. :rolleyes:

[Phil Redmond]

There are things involved in fighting that you can't get from doing only chi sao, drills and forms. In a fight you can get sensory deprivation due to the higher heart rate and other variables. Too many WC people in particular argue theory having never had to use their WC under pressure. And there are usually the most critical of what others do when they themselves have never pressure test what they advocate.

[k gledhill]

There are things involved in fighting that you can't get from doing only chi sao, drills and forms. In a fight you can get sensory deprivation due to the higher heart rate and other variables. Too many WC people in particular argue theory having never had to use their WC under pressure. And there are usually the most critical of what others do when they themselves have never pressure test what they advocate.

True many try to argue with no real fighting experience. Many only have
one on one ring experience, never facing multiple attackers in real situations.

[Sihing73]

He's interested in fighting and like me feels that one needs to learn fighting from someone with fighting experience. I'd even ask how many WC people from any lineage fought?

Hmmmm,

I am willing to bet I have the most experience.....................provided fighting with the ex-wife counts :D

[Frost]

True many try to argue with no real fighting experience. Many only have
one on one ring experience, never facing multiple attackers in real situations.
Im sure you didnt aim this at Phil as a former Marine i assume hes faced his fair share of non ring opponents :)

But getting back to your point if i had a penny for every TCMA guy who claimed to be a bouncer and having faced multipul opponents id be very rich.......i always question how the h*ll they managed to keep their jobs and not get landed in jail especially here in the UK knowing how our police forces are :)

stories are just that, what ring fighters have usually is easily proven fight records and sparring clips, heck id settle for just some sparring clips from the bouncer crowd :)

[Vajramusti]

Unfortunately macho chest beating is common on this forum.
To some it's silly and boring.

[k gledhill]

Im sure you didnt aim this at Phil as a former Marine i assume hes faced his fair share of non ring opponents :)

But getting back to your point if i had a penny for every TCMA guy who claimed to be a bouncer and having faced multipul opponents id be very rich.......i always question how the h*ll they managed to keep their jobs and not get landed in jail especially here in the UK knowing how our police forces are :)

stories are just that, what ring fighters have usually is easily proven fight records and sparring clips, heck id settle for just some sparring clips from the bouncer crowd :)

No Phil is an ex-marine so it goes without saying :D

Yeah if I had a dollar for every troll who said what you did I would also give up one of my 3 jobs .... I have also sparred outside of bars in gyms too :D I know "outside a bar" , crazy talk !

BTW the local police knew me well, and liked me because I dealt with guys they would have to if I didnt ... the police coached me how to give statements so I wouldn't sound like knocking a guy out cold was a bad thing. They came up with this..." The man attacked me, I threw my hands out to defend myself and he fell over ":D

[Fa Xing]

They came up with this..." The man attacked me, I threw my hands out to defend myself and he fell over ":D

LOL!

I like that, and I will have to remember that for later....:D

[trubblman]

The man attacked me, I threw my hands out to defend myself and he fell over ":D

When I was in corrections, we were taught to write or say, Such and such attacked me. Fearing for my safety I did_________________.

[Phil Redmond]

No Phil is an ex-marine so it goes without saying :D
Actually, because I was discharged honorably former Marine is the correct term. Once a Marine, always a Marine is the saying. Every Marine is my brother/sister.
Esprit Du Corps. Semper Fidelis.

[Vajramusti]

Actually, because I was discharged honorably former Marine is the correct term. Once a Marine, always a Marine is the saying. Every Marine is my brother/sister.
Esprit Du Corps. Semper Fidelis.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have had two former Marines as good students.One served in Desert Storm and the other in SE Asia and the Middle east. He was/is a super marksman.

[k gledhill]

Actually, because I was discharged honorably former Marine is the correct term. Once a Marine, always a Marine is the saying. Every Marine is my brother/sister.
Esprit Du Corps. Semper Fidelis.

I stand corrected, yes it doesnt sound right.

[k gledhill]

When I was in corrections, we were taught to write or say, Such and such attacked me. Fearing for my safety I did_________________.

I have many versions ;) as always beware the witnesses who can give ....alternative views :D had that at a restaurant in China town London one night. We went to Wong KI a huge multilevel rest. with famously rude waiters who literally barked at you to order , if you didnt they would take your menus and scream for you to leave for all to hear.
Well it got so guys would go there just for kicks to rile up the waiters. We would go there after training every class for the good cheap food. We got along with the waiters as well, the head chef being a close friend and student of our sifu.
Anyway a drunk grup of suits shows up and in less than 5 minutes where fighting the waiters, so we joined in to help them and ..hehe things quickly went into full riot, I had one guy pinned to a wall, another was kicking a guy he dropped under a table of eaters..and more of the same...needless to say when the Police showed , the 'witnesses' SAW us beating the c r a P out of the suits :D and everyone got jailed over night...except myself and another guy who didnt get grassed on...

[EternalSpring]

Not tryna annoy anyone with this question, but I was wondering:

Has it been unanimously agreed on by everyone that a sifu who is not considered a fighter himself(or just doesn't have much fighting experience, because lets be honest, every sifu says they've tested their kung fu in SOME way "on the streets" at least once) cannot produce good fighters?

I personally dont agree with such a notion, although that's just my opinion its only equally (or possibly less) valid than the other opinions here. I think a sifu can understand a lot about the techniques in an art/system/etc and then teach them to someone who wants to fight. And by actual fighting, the student can test what his sifu taught him and eventually be a good fighter if he puts the work in (since, as someone mentioned before, a sifu's fighting ability and experience does not at all mean that his students can fight, otherwise it wouldn't even matter if Yip Man's students fought since most of us can safely conclude that YM at least used his art in combat)

[Yoshiyahu]

Your Sifu cant make you a good fighter...only you can!!!!




Not tryna annoy anyone with this question, but I was wondering:

Has it been unanimously agreed on by everyone that a sifu who is not considered a fighter himself(or just doesn't have much fighting experience, because lets be honest, every sifu says they've tested their kung fu in SOME way "on the streets" at least once) cannot produce good fighters?

I personally dont agree with such a notion, although that's just my opinion its only equally (or possibly less) valid than the other opinions here. I think a sifu can understand a lot about the techniques in an art/system/etc and then teach them to someone who wants to fight. And by actual fighting, the student can test what his sifu taught him and eventually be a good fighter if he puts the work in (since, as someone mentioned before, a sifu's fighting ability and experience does not at all mean that his students can fight, otherwise it wouldn't even matter if Yip Man's students fought since most of us can safely conclude that YM at least used his art in combat)

[jesper]

Not tryna annoy anyone with this question, but I was wondering:

Has it been unanimously agreed on by everyone that a sifu who is not considered a fighter himself(or just doesn't have much fighting experience, because lets be honest, every sifu says they've tested their kung fu in SOME way "on the streets" at least once) cannot produce good fighters?

I personally dont agree with such a notion, although that's just my opinion its only equally (or possibly less) valid than the other opinions here. I think a sifu can understand a lot about the techniques in an art/system/etc and then teach them to someone who wants to fight. And by actual fighting, the student can test what his sifu taught him and eventually be a good fighter if he puts the work in (since, as someone mentioned before, a sifu's fighting ability and experience does not at all mean that his students can fight, otherwise it wouldn't even matter if Yip Man's students fought since most of us can safely conclude that YM at least used his art in combat)

would you take swimming lessons from a man who has never swimmed himself, or learn hockey from a man who has never been on skates himself

[EternalSpring]

would you take swimming lessons from a man who has never swimmed himself, or learn hockey from a man who has never been on skates himself

I dont think that's a fair comparison because one can learn the techniques in Kung fu without fighting (at least imho), but how does a person learn to swim without swimming? How can he play hockey w/o skating (assuming we're talking ice hockey lol)?

From what I understand, what your question is asking is similar to saying "would you learn kung fu from a guy who didn't learn kung fu." It's not the same as asking would you learn martial arts or fighting from someone who didn't fight, because at the very least a person can learn the technique, how to generate force, strike, pad/bag drilling, and even have partner drilling and sparring without actually "fighting." A person who wants to teach swimming without swimming is offering something he cant do. A person who's advertising Kung Fu is advertising Kung fu, it doesn't necessarily mean that he's had a list of fights. Again, this is from my limited perspective/understanding, but people like Yip Man and many of his students were teaching something they called Ving Tsun, and not just "the art of fighting." The art then could be used to fight or just for health, or w/e purpose the practitioner wants. Even the Kuen Kit shows that there's a lot of important concepts besides the martial arts concepts.

But lots of people in this thread seems to be giving off the vibe that if the sifu didn't fight then he cant produce students that can fight. But even the best fighter in the world can't necessarily produce the best fighters out of his students (imo), he can only pass knowledge, just like any sifu, and its up to the student to apply it.

Not to mention that "fight experience" itself is a shakey term. What does it mean? Street fights? Cage fights? Ring Fights? Winning fights that start in clubs/parties/streets/etc is nice and all, but it doesn't really say much if the opponent isn't too skilled himself. And its pretty common for some tough guy douche to act macho and start fights even though he has little or no martial skill.

This response is to the whole thread btw, not just you. I know i mentioned stuff that you didn't even post about. It's just that (again this is my experience), I've seen people who can fight come from sifus who dont have reputations as fighters. Ive seen people on the forum say that the best way to learn how to fight using one's martial art, is to actually fight in some way. I dont disagree with this, but its just that if a person can learn a martial art and not learn how to fight, then that means martial art skills can be passed down by people who aren't fighters, and if a student wants to be a fighter, he'll have to test his skills and refine his tactics through fighting. Just my 2c

/end rant

[Yoshiyahu]

Kung Fu, Karate, Boxing, MMA any other martial arts...Have techniques and drills that any one who knows the system can teach you...

If someone Knows Kyoshukin katas, strikes, principles, and drills they can teach it to you regardless of their fighting experience. They don't need to know how to fight in order to teach you a system....


But when it comes to actually learning how to fight the best way to do so is by sparring first. Spar against other fighters who are good. Learn what your weaknesses are and what strengths you have...Eliminate your weaknesses and empower your strenghts. Also things that your opponents do that work also copy them. Use them as well. This will make you a better fighter. Alls a person who fought can teach you is how they use to fight in their hay day!

[jesper]

Kung Fu, Karate, Boxing, MMA any other martial arts...Have techniques and drills that any one who knows the system can teach you...

If someone Knows Kyoshukin katas, strikes, principles, and drills they can teach it to you regardless of their fighting experience. They don't need to know how to fight in order to teach you a system....


But when it comes to actually learning how to fight the best way to do so is by sparring first. Spar against other fighters who are good. Learn what your weaknesses are and what strengths you have...Eliminate your weaknesses and empower your strenghts. Also things that your opponents do that work also copy them. Use them as well. This will make you a better fighter. Alls a person who fought can teach you is how they use to fight in their hay day!

a MA teacher who doesnt fight or has fought will introduce loads of ****ty flower technics because they looks cool and feel cool. Dont believe me go to any school where the teachers are ex fighters and compare with the dancers of non fighting schools

[Yoshiyahu]

a MA teacher who doesnt fight or has fought will introduce loads of ****ty flower technics because they looks cool and feel cool. Dont believe me go to any school where the teachers are ex fighters and compare with the dancers of non fighting schools

I agree with you...you have a point...But that is also can be said by teachers who are ex fighters...but dont teach actual fighting just drills, conditioning, forms and chi sau...Unless a teacher actually allows students to spar with one another an others from other school there art is baseless. An will end up having no gravity and no real combat or functionality to it...


Those Teachers who produce fighters are the ones who students fight!