Huen Sau

[wtxs]

May had been covered before, but anyway...

Aside from the simple basic usage of clearing the line by interception of the incoming, redirecting/vectoring of the attack pass your high/low inside/outside gate to facilitate mounting an immediate counter, what other ways do you utilize the Huen? (In theory or REAL usage :p)

[Vajramusti]

May had been covered before, but anyway...

Aside from the simple basic usage of clearing the line by interception of the incoming, redirecting/vectoring of the attack pass your high/low inside/outside gate to facilitate mounting an immediate counter, what other ways do you utilize the Huen? (In theory or REAL usage :p)
---------------------------------------------------
The uses of huen sau are endless-it's an important enough motion to be there in every ending of every section of the hand forms of wing chun. Among other things huen sao training eases going around a line of force. But like everything else it must be well connected to the dynamics of structure.
Huen sau can also be the basis of many very close quarters attacks.

joy chaudhuri

[k gledhill]

think always of what the other hand does as the huen is in action....attacking...in conjunction with jum strikes usually, ergo so many in the dummy using a jum strike or a sidepalm [elbow in] to contact and ensure facing ....while the opposite arm strikes.

..for recovery of mid level attack lines at us....one reason low gaun sao came into use was the mid section lowering huen sao didnt go past the. er....midsection...:D

the huen is used with the lowering forearm, the hand does a 1/2 circle , like an old school paper cutter using the big lowering handle as it slices down on the incoming line of force.
by design it can recover the flanking side of the incoming arm...as a jum strike recovers the angling attack simultaneously in one beat....

the technique wont work with elbows out, surprisingly ! :D


in the dummy we do many huen sao's with lowering forearm on one arm while doing a jum strike using the other arm...,always making a attacking action .....the huen will recover a flank angle on the incoming arm simultaneously as the jum strike will take over the attack/defense line as the huen now spent, now cycles to become a rear attacking hand ...

we turn while executing this on the dummy to train 'facing' while executing the techniques..not to stand in front of a guy and use 2 extended arms in a basic stance pivoting ....cycling the defensive action becoming the attacking action repeat 3 times....each attack/defense is simultaneously executed.regardless of angles faced....

we can use the huen in many ways as Joy mentioned. to manipulate ourselves into attacks etc...

[anerlich]

You can huen the neck as well as the arms. Even the legs in a groundfighting/open guard situation.

[Vajramusti]

You can huen the neck as well as the arms. Even the legs in a groundfighting/open guard situation.
---------------------------------------------------------

True

joy chaudhuri

[LoneTiger108]

May had been covered before, but anyway...

Aside from the simple basic usage of clearing the line by interception of the incoming, redirecting/vectoring of the attack pass your high/low inside/outside gate to facilitate mounting an immediate counter, what other ways do you utilize the Huen? (In theory or REAL usage :p)

One of the most realistic methods I have seen is using huen sau to deflect grabs to the wrist. Maybe it's core to Wing Chun because this was the first defence tactic shown to women?


You can huen the neck as well as the arms. Even the legs in a groundfighting/open guard situation.

If you're using the motion to 'hook' the neck/arm/leg then I would call that kau sau, not huen sau. Just my view.

[wtxs]

One of the most realistic methods I have seen is using huen sau to deflect grabs to the wrist. Maybe it's core to Wing Chun because this was the first defence tactic shown to women?

You're so right! We've gotten so caught up In trying to find more ways to use the WC tools, we had glossed over the most basic and obvious ... breaking out of an wrist grab. :o:cool:

[anerlich]

If you're using the motion to 'hook' the neck/arm/leg then I would call that kau sau, not huen sau.

Call it what you want, it's essentially the same movement.

[Lee Chiang Po]

I have used it a time or 2, but I think it is mostly a defense technique that is used by a Wing Chun fighter against another Wing Chun fighter. Grabbing wrists and arms is a common method of trapping and pulling someone off balance. It is common in Jujitsu as well. This is indeed a method of escaping that grip and possibly applying your own grip and trapping technique. Well, along with slugging him with the other hand. It might be used a number of different ways, but I would venture that it is a simple basic escape technique from the trap.

[LSWCTN1]

One of the most realistic methods I have seen is using huen sau to deflect grabs to the wrist. Maybe it's core to Wing Chun because this was the first defence tactic shown to women?
.

is that not chasing the hand Spencer :eek:

there is a much better way for men or women to do this, and its right there in snt...

for me, huen is used when their bridge or angling is stronger than ours. we huen and find a new attack line

[LoneTiger108]

is that not chasing the hand Spencer :eek:

I wouldn't say that at all. More like sticking hands ;)


there is a much better way for men or women to do this, and its right there in snt...

for me, huen is used when their bridge or angling is stronger than ours. we huen and find a new attack line

I agree with huen also being used to regain the attacking line, but not only when our opponent is stronger. As for the hand release you mention in SNT, fme without huen sau in play too a women would find it very difficult to 'brush off' a srong grab with that set. I did as I'm only 5ft7 and under 10 stone! It took much more understanding and training with footwork and angling to pull it off, the huen sau however works instantly with little skill.

[LSWCTN1]

I wouldn't say that at all. More like sticking hands ;)



I agree with huen also being used to regain the attacking line, but not only when our opponent is stronger. As for the hand release you mention in SNT, fme without huen sau in play too a women would find it very difficult to 'brush off' a srong grab with that set. I did as I'm only 5ft7 and under 10 stone! It took much more understanding and training with footwork and angling to pull it off, the huen sau however works instantly with little skill.

gaan sau set in snt

tense fist, slightly increasing forarm size
opposite arm sweeps
initially grabbed arm drives forward

much easier and more effective then huen. ime of course

[LoneTiger108]

gaan sau set in snt

tense fist, slightly increasing forarm size
opposite arm sweeps
initially grabbed arm drives forward

much easier and more effective then huen. ime of course

Yep! That's the set I mentioned being very difficult to apply without set skills. Even the 'clashing' of your arm against the opponent to force a release really does go against much of what I learnt. This set actually has other applications and reasons outside of the scrappy 'brush hands' technique of the 80's!

Seriously, get a beginner to try that against a skilled grab and they will have difficulty. Huen sau is so much simpler and more effective for the beginner.

[LSWCTN1]

Yep! That's the set I mentioned being very difficult to apply without set skills. Even the 'clashing' of your arm against the opponent to force a release really does go against much of what I learnt. This set actually has other applications and reasons outside of the scrappy 'brush hands' technique of the 80's!

Seriously, get a beginner to try that against a skilled grab and they will have difficulty. Huen sau is so much simpler and more effective for the beginner.

its not difficult?

one arm plls the other pushes - similar to destoying a persons structure when fighting - always rocking them back and forth.

i liked your sifu - he actually seemed the most impressive of the 3 that i saw on our second meeting. granted it was a limited time so that has to be taken into consideration.

which do you think he would advocate?

albeit we are taught that if you are physically not able to do something then you find another way.

[k gledhill]

gaan sau set in snt

tense fist, slightly increasing forarm size
opposite arm sweeps
initially grabbed arm drives forward

much easier and more effective then huen. ime of course


tut sao isnt to release a grabbed wrist....bg has the wrist grab release methods.
what you call the 'gaunn sai set' is actually recovering an attacking hand after striking ...all about making a new wu sao.

[LSWCTN1]

tut sao isnt to release a grabbed wrist....bg has the wrist grab release methods.
what you call the 'gaunn sai set' is actually recovering an attacking hand after striking ...all about making a new wu sao.

i dont think i follow what you mean here? oh well, each to their own...

another way is to shoot forward and inch or 3 with a 'tan' shape hand and grab the underside of their grabbing arm

step and pull back then go forward. they go flying!

many, many ways... i was just recounting which i have felt to be the best

[Vajramusti]

kgledhill is basically correct. Tuit sao-the last motions in slt before punches has other effective uses. It wont work most of the time against a strong completed grab. If you catch the bridge arm before completion of the grab- a somewhat different matter.

Better to punch- if after punching 101 you have developed an effective punch.

joy chaudhuri

[wtxs]

another way is to shoot forward and inch or 3 with a 'tan' shape hand and grab the underside of their grabbing arm

step and pull back then go forward. they go flying!

many, many ways... i was just recounting which i have felt to be the best


Yes you can do that and be effective, but IMHO it violates the WC's direct/simplicity concept ( takes three actions), gives opponent too much time to respond and redirect. If you choose to use the Tan ... shoot forward with your mass behind you, if grip loosens, launch the Tan into any of strikes/attacks along with your free hand. If the grip still holds ... likely he will be forced backward, and you should be attacking with your free hand already. My .02 of the day.

[k gledhill]

we don't try to use 2 hands to fight one. trying to escape a grabbed wrist with tut sao is taking both your hands to fight one. In BG we learn to recover.
Huen sao involves the forearm lowering as a mid section parry. Coupled with a simultaneous jum strike....we do this many many times while facing on the dummy.
Due to the fixed arms of the dummy guys tend to use wrist only with elbows out, won't work, so guys try to 'hook' things with elbows up ..cr&p ! :)

hit face ..dont play hand games.

[k gledhill]

i dont think i follow what you mean here? oh well, each to their own...

another way is to shoot forward and inch or 3 with a 'tan' shape hand and grab the underside of their grabbing arm

step and pull back then go forward. they go flying!

many, many ways... i was just recounting which i have felt to be the best

when your using 2 hands to deal with one of theirs your not attacking anymore.
the basic striking ideas of the system are training us to use less to accomplish more...iow we have strikes that multifuntion as they extend one at a time cycling.

to train to use both your hands extended togethet along your centerline is a bad habit because if they are you ...what would you do ? answer trap their 2 equally extended arms. why we use a lead and rear hand cycling to attack.
the rear hand is always making the new strike.
attack don't look for 'appplications' in SLT.

[LoneTiger108]

... i liked your sifu - he actually seemed the most impressive of the 3 that i saw on our second meeting. granted it was a limited time so that has to be taken into consideration.

which do you think he would advocate?

albeit we are taught that if you are physically not able to do something then you find another way.

Thanks for the kind words about my Sifu! At least you HAVE met him! And I would have to say at this point he is no better or worse than anyone of his brothers, he just has a different view as he is one of the eldest still teaching in our family.

FME I think he would prefer the example I gave, as this was his first set he generally taught everyone. It's not that everyone was physically not able to just punch the opponent in the face, but more because it exhibited a control over your reaction, and like Lee Chiang Po has mentioned, you can instantly grab back and strike whilst keeping the opponent under control.


tut sao isnt to release a grabbed wrist....bg has the wrist grab release methods.
what you call the 'gaunn sai set' is actually recovering an attacking hand after striking ...all about making a new wu sao.

Tuet sau (tut sau) may be used for quite a few things and I wouldn't limit it to either of your suggestions to be honest.

It can also be viewed as an intro to lan sau and chum kiu (3 bars/three fists) but agian, many uses depending on where you're at...

[k gledhill]

Thanks for the kind words about my Sifu! At least you HAVE met him! And I would have to say at this point he is no better or worse than anyone of his brothers, he just has a different view as he is one of the eldest still teaching in our family.

FME I think he would prefer the example I gave, as this was his first set he generally taught everyone. It's not that everyone was physically not able to just punch the opponent in the face, but more because it exhibited a control over your reaction, and like Lee Chiang Po has mentioned, you can instantly grab back and strike whilst keeping the opponent under control.



Tuet sau (tut sau) may be used for quite a few things and I wouldn't limit it to either of your suggestions to be honest.

It can also be viewed as an intro to lan sau and chum kiu (3 bars/three fists) but agian, many uses depending on where you're at...



tut sao is a fundamental idea of the VT system. very important.

BTW it is the beginning actions of every form , also done low for elbows. IOW its not high low gaun sao at all....ever wonder why such an aggressive fighting method starts withdouble defensive move of high & low gaun sao , answer... it doesnt.

:D it has one purpose. YOU can make up anything you want , its called martial arts. Judging from your movies posted, your teacher invented a lot of stuff, thats his business.

we recover the wu sao in the same timing as the extending strike, for a specific reason. its only aimed low to keep elbows low. meant to be aimed along line as strikes.


wrists x along the centerline, extending to double man sao, or for terminology nerds, a double bil sao , really signifying a striking lead hand done together to ensure reach with either 'Facing'...then back to double wu sao xing the line X, double rear attacking hands.
The basis for a "no thinking attack line". Done together to ensure facing squarely along line.

Tut sao is the same thing , just a progression of that idea, where we always have one lead and one recycling to make an attacking action.

lead / rear swapping ...the idea of tut sao is the recovery of the wu in the same timing as the striking hand makes contact, the following idea in SLT is cycling strikes focus on the striking hand .

by position X the rear wu brought back defensively will then, as it strikes from across the line either side, intersect anything on our centerline. Meaning we can simply make angles that will naturally intersect our strikes. We can also recover the attempted blocking of our lead , not by fighting with the hand in that scenario, but striking into the available space with the wu sao as we bring back the spent preceding strike....if you have developed the tan strikes and jum strikes you can see what will happen naturally.

tut sao is like a short dagger that keeps stabbing from opposite arm pit to centerline either side as the other knife comes back to restrike in the same beat/timing . the knife stabs forwards as the arm driving it moves across a space before us , sweeping anything in the space away from the line using either side of the forearms, depending what angle you are to the target.

each hand has a short dagger in it.

when we do a bong sao and a rear hand it can be this action tut sao, because your striking from wu sao as the bong elbow drops and comes back to wu itself.

tut sao makes one sound.

if you think its for removing a wrist grab your teacher is a fool. and you are dumber. okay maybe thats a bit unfair , but you get the idea. If you trying to have a technical edge over an opponent, and all they have to do is grab your wrist to make you fight their one hand with both of yours , well...what do you think ? Can you knock them out cold by attacking their hand with both of yours in a deadly tut sao move ?:D

your not far off the idea, but you have to think of it as a sweeping action, clearing a space and re chambering a bullet in the same beat/move [ for shawchemical ] . natural spacial sweeping, even if thers nothing there we do the same sweep of our centerline , making contact along our line one that is simultaneous with our attacking along it, non thinking action from chi-sao, drill exchanges, etc...this is why we angle and cut across the face of the dummy as we attack drill with it, we intersect the arms at angles ...if we dont get stopped on our line we hit, lat sao chit cheung, if we meet something along the way we deal with it without thinking, striking/attacking , if they go defensive , they will try to stop our lead hand every time, so its up to us to be able to re-cycle the rear hand, and not go over trapping , making us defensive...somebody has to have a good attack ; )

as for' lan sao' , thats completely different. another thread, this ones already approaching MASSIVE!

[LoneTiger108]

:D it has one purpose. YOU can make up anything you want , its called martial arts. Judging from your movies posted, your teacher invented a lot of stuff, thats his business.

Of course, you must be correct! Anything that doesn't comply with YOUR teaching method is obviously just made up :rolleyes: This was something we used to joke about as we knew that some narrow minded people would take this view. My Sifu invented Wing Chun!! :D


if you think its for removing a wrist grab your teacher is a fool. and you are dumber. okay maybe thats a bit unfair , but you get the idea. If you trying to have a technical edge over an opponent, and all they have to do is grab your wrist to make you fight their one hand with both of yours , well...what do you think ? Can you knock them out cold by attacking their hand with both of yours in a deadly tut sao move ?:D

Knocking someone out is not the intention of the method I talked of. And as for the further insults, you honestly do make me laugh! A beginner could hold one of your arms with both of my hands in such a way that you wouldn't even be able to move, and then of course you better be ready for their legwork coz it will be launching very quickily indeed! All your 'Wing Chun doesn't do this' chat is so out of date and boring to be honest! Wake up and see the flowers in bloom dude and stop concentrating on an old dried out petal!


:as for' lan sao' , thats completely different. another thread, this ones already approaching MASSIVE!

It's not so different. Its just an idea I was putting across. But I agree, chum kiu is another thread...

[k gledhill]

Not 'my' teaching method , I didnt make it up ;) about time you smelled the coffee.

BTW great technical rebuttal ...NOT ! ;) speaks for itself.

Lan sao is another technique altogether.

The fact that you try to make tut sao 'whatever' is also revealing your lack of understanding.

It is a fundamental idea at work. The fact that you dont even acknowledge that is all I need to know.


Its what makes fighting with the system work, iow how to continue an attack in the blink of an eye , after the lead hand has been stopped, bridged, intercepted , without resorting to using 2 hands .

It cuts time, makes the transition seamless and allows a flowing attacking action. Making a more efficient assault.

Your the one with the narrow mind, you wont even ask how it works ....you've already shut your mind off to a new idea. And it is new to you Spencer. Never heard it before ? figure it out dude.

It is a major fighting idea of the system.

[LoneTiger108]

The fact that you try to make tut sao 'whatever' is also revealing your lack of understanding.

It is a fundamental idea at work. The fact that you dont even acknowledge that is all I need to know.

Fact is, I DO acknowledge that it has a specific purpose, but just disagree with what you say it is. I have only given options that's all and considering I presented a practical IDEA OF HUEN SAU I find it funny that we're even at this point of debate!


Its what makes fighting with the system work, iow how to continue an attack in the blink of an eye , after the lead hand has been stopped, bridged, intercepted , without resorting to using 2 hands .

It cuts time, makes the transition seamless and allows a flowing attacking action. Making a more efficient assault.

What you're describing here IMO is simply continual hand work (lien wan) and this IS indicated at this point of SLT but never restricted to tuet sau alone.


Your the one with the narrow mind, you wont even ask how it works ....you've already shut your mind off to a new idea. And it is new to you Spencer. Never heard it before ? figure it out dude.

It is a major fighting idea of the system.

Of course you're right. I've never heard of this tech before and your whole spiel is new to me :rolleyes:

[k gledhill]

hah nice try.

[SAAMAG]

The fact that you guys think your version of wing chun is more right over another is the real funny thing. Do you honestly believe that either one of you has the "inside line" on what the original intent of a movement in a form set is? I mean really?

Wing Chun is what you make of it. Applications of the forms will vary from one person to the next, because everyone's wing chun is individualized and their interpretation of the form will vary. The only time something is "wrong" is when is doesn't answer the question being posed. Then you have to go through some things to figure out if it's (1) your own lack of skill, (2) your lack of understanding, or (3) a combination thereof.

Tut sao technically means "freeing hand" does it not? So the idea of it being used to "free" the hand through the swiping and pulling would seem to be a logical interpretation. Does it work for everyone? There's too many variables to say that it would work 100% for everyone.

Could it also be interpreted as "freeing" up the hand (for other uses) -- as in replacing the wu or using the hand to support the man sao? Sure. The movement lends it self to either scenario.

The bottom line is, no one has the "real" wing chun. What makes it real is how well it works for you in today's world.

[LSWCTN1]

when your using 2 hands to deal with one of theirs your not attacking anymore.


equally, if someone is grabbing you and NOT striking. they probably aren't much of a threat (bar if they are armed).

if that is the case then two hands to one (without striking) must be the most realistic, legal, way?

as i say, each to their own.

you are taught to strike strike and then strike some more.

we are taught to strike when you create the opportunity, and to stay stuck until then. not chasing hands - as soon as they leave an area worth protecting you strike (mostly) :D

[k gledhill]

The fact that you guys think your version of wing chun is more right over another is the real funny thing. Do you honestly believe that either one of you has the "inside line" on what the original intent of a movement in a form set is? I mean really?

Wing Chun is what you make of it. Applications of the forms will vary from one person to the next, because everyone's wing chun is individualized and their interpretation of the form will vary. The only time something is "wrong" is when is doesn't answer the question being posed. Then you have to go through some things to figure out if it's (1) your own lack of skill, (2) your lack of understanding, or (3) a combination thereof.

Tut sao technically means "freeing hand" does it not? So the idea of it being used to "free" the hand through the swiping and pulling would seem to be a logical interpretation. Does it work for everyone? There's too many variables to say that it would work 100% for everyone.

Could it also be interpreted as "freeing" up the hand (for other uses) -- as in replacing the wu or using the hand to support the man sao? Sure. The movement lends it self to either scenario.

The bottom line is, no one has the "real" wing chun. What makes it real is how well it works for you in today's world.

wing chun is what you make it ...after you learn it ;) while learning you abide by the techniques to allow the concepts to work.

"freeing hand" ...to do what with ? free it to to do what ...ATTACK>>>>. remember BG has ways to recover a grabbed wrist, so why make the tut sao do what you already have . IOW the SLT contains the basic ideas for delivering a concept to attack as defense. freeing hand doesnt mean it has been grabbed , now break the rules of the basic attacking idea .

The freeing part is just that yiu recycle the lead after it has been deflected, intercepted, lifted, allowing the arms to keep doing what they are doing without stopping .

its not an exclusive idea to one or the other VT....

swiping a grabbed wrist with the push / pull isnt what we use it for. Tut sao precedes the striking in SLT . to teach a fundamental idea of maintaining the rear attacking hands ability to function, yes by freeing it from the lead cycling action it was previously, it comes back in the same timing.

There are specific ideas we adopt in SLT that can be changed in Bil Gee...reason for bg.

SLT IS NOT FOR APPLICATIONS

[k gledhill]

we begin each form with the same thing ....then as we learn the form we make the functional alternating action of the arms recovering with individual arms....cycling....developing an idea.
we do the same tut sao action in CK ..done low to stop elbow raising up....

you really think we would have a ' how to remove wrist grab' at the end of these actions in CK too ?

after an energy that opens a line for the rear hand....howw to go into that space with little thought to both clearing the lead hands job as you strike and attack...simultaneously done ...seamless.

the idea is that we sweep a space that is before us using the simultaneous actions inherent of the SLT without making both the arms able to be trapped if the arm went forwards in parrallel ...
one arm will naturally recover the flank of the arm/side your attacking.

think about it...if soemone doesgrab a wrists low like you think tut sao why not hit them with your free hand ?
if we have more efficient means in BG for this very thing AND only using one arm !...why even waste time with a thought that will make you use 2 in our attacking ideas of SLT

BTW I havw had many many fights that start with guys grabbing my wrists...when they do THEY can't hit you either if they grab both writsts I relax and smile while we are in this situation. : )

no need to hit either and break the law....yet , that's your call.

BTW Bil Gee also has the tut sao, only we do it under the arm ...so if the arm is lifted upwards we have a way to reclaim the attack due to the inability to go over the bridge as normal.

its not about 'who has the inside line' its always been there....sadly guys don't study long enough, so they may fill in gaps with their own ideas....

oh well, make of it what you will.

[LoneTiger108]

The fact that you guys think your version of wing chun is more right over another is the real funny thing. Do you honestly believe that either one of you has the "inside line" on what the original intent of a movement in a form set is? I mean really?

The funny thing is that you 'interpret' anything I say as meaning that my way is 'best'! :confused:

Read through again, as I'm pretty sure all I was attempting to do was have a conversation about 'differences' not who's is right or wrong.

[SAAMAG]

I wasn't saying that you said that. "Best" wasn't the idea between you two, it was who was more correct in the interpretation of the movement.

The point being that you guys are arguing about taut sao--a single technique in a single form set that was created so long ago and so many generations ago that to think that one knows exactly what the intended meaning was at the time of its inclusion into the form is just plain...well...arrogant.

It's not about "not training long enough" either as Kevin thinks. Someone could look at the taut sao movement and decipher the same use or idea as either one of you in just a moments time. Because it is an interpretation--much like those ink blots that you see psychologists using.

Long story short is that both of you are right, and both of you are wrong. It all just depends on your audience's perspective of whatever your ideas are.

FWIW--I originally learned it to be a wrist release, as that's what I was told. But since then have found far more profound tidbits of knowledge in the forms. As Kevin says, it promotes the idea of replacing the wu, which I agree with as well. At the same time I understand that different people think different things about the form...but in looking at slt, to me it is meant to solidify the foundation of the system's ideas, where the application of those ideas are endless.

[LoneTiger108]

Long story short is that both of you are right, and both of you are wrong. It all just depends on your audience's perspective of whatever your ideas are.

Well said! And I agree totally. :D


FWIW--I originally learned it to be a wrist release, as that's what I was told. But since then have found far more profound tidbits of knowledge in the forms. As Kevin says, it promotes the idea of replacing the wu, which I agree with as well. At the same time I understand that different people think different things about the form...but in looking at slt, to me it is meant to solidify the foundation of the system's ideas, show the basic techniques, promote the "internal" aspect of the system, and just give an overall feel.

Also agreed, and I would add that it only gives an 'overall feel' of Gin San Wing Chun, square body skills, at the beginning.

Back onto the tuet sau, this set in the SLT was also where I experienced the first reference to four posture training (which did cover the 'freeing hand' ideas discussed) This wasn't something 'made up' or 'invented' by my Sifu. It just made alot of sense at the time and it lead very nicely into the intro for second form.

FWIW Now I see these four postures everywhere, but that was where I was first exposed to the idea.

[k gledhill]

Have fun with your tut sao's :D arrogant ? Im only helping out. there are many thinking its a wrist grab thing....wrong thinking !

5 minutes sparring can reveal a lot about seeking SLT applications ;) whatever it is, it has to be fast!

I wondered for a while why the main points of the system are done pointing down to the ground ...like the opening actions. tut sao's ...its a fundamental idea of our fighting method...

[SAAMAG]

Have fun with your tut sao's :D arrogant ? Im only helping out. there are many thinking its a wrist grab thing....wrong thinking !

5 minutes sparring can reveal a lot about seeking SLT applications ;)

Waaaaaaiit. Didn't you say applications would be a person's downfall? ;) Though I agree some good ol sparring teaches more honestly than some teachers do.

So I guess you're sticking to the premise that you have the one and only correct idea as to the intent of the form's movements.

It's too bad that the one thing you don't know, is that your cup is overflowing.