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David M
06-08-2000, 02:15 PM
I studied a southern family style art similar to Tsoi Lay Fut for 8 years. Now I am studying with a very good Sifu from Shandong, in Northern Longfist, 8 step PM, 7 star PM and plum blossom fist PM. Can anyone tell me the real differences between these styles, practically. I am just starting the Praying Mantis forms, and the info would be very much appreciated. My Sifu is very traditional, and I have other questions to raise with him when the rare chance comes to chat with him. Many thanks! :-)

bamboo_ leaf
06-11-2000, 03:27 AM
My first teacher taught plum flower in Korea,
he never really spoke much, weather this was due to the language or
maybe it was just his way hard to say.
The main differences that I can see between 7-star and plum flower
is that the 7-star seems to be a more direct and straight-line art.
Med to small range movements using small circles in the hand forms
very quick direct attacks.
The plum flower that I learned makes use
of larger circles in the hand forms; the form movements comparatively
speaking are med to large. It also uses more of the waist in its
movements.The idea and form seem
to be more circular in its approach to combat.

Otherwise most of the movements seem to be the same, I hope this helps.

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enjoy life

bamboo leaf

[This message has been edited by bamboo_ leaf (edited 06-11-2000).]

laughing tiger
06-14-2000, 05:52 AM
many thanks, Bamboo leaf! I always enjoy your posts :-)

bamboo_ leaf
06-14-2000, 12:27 PM
thanks

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enjoy life

bamboo leaf

Michael Dasargo
06-14-2000, 01:30 PM
David,

Ba Bu Tang Lang Quan was derived from the Mui Hua Tang Lang system. Jiang Hua Long(aka Ghost Hands) feared that the footwork of Tang Lang would not carry over into his elder years. So after cross refrencing the footwork of Ba Kua and Tom Pei, Jiang Hua Long created 8 Step.

His disciple, Fong Hua Yi(Ghost Shadow), orginally excelled in Shui Chiao. After studying with Jiang Hua Long, Fong Hua Yi developed a deeper understanding of the Martial Arts. With this new understanding, he was able to effectivley incorperate Shui Chiao into Ba Bu Tang Lang.

To answer your question, footwork and an emphasis on throwing is what differentiates Ba Bu from Qi Xing. Remember, It's the theoritical approach to fighting that's indicative of any given system, not the physical movements alone.

So your teacher is from Shandong? I'm assuming that he/she is very old and trained with Wei Xiao Tang or from his student. Xun Guang Long perhaps? Just curious.

Hope it helps,

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M.Dasargo
The Traditinal Kung Fu Academy
San Diego, CA.USA

laughing tiger
06-14-2000, 03:59 PM
Mr. (no disrespect)Dasargo, what a very nice and very informative post! Thank you very much! My Sifu, "duke" Cheung is in Orange County. He has direct family lineage to the founder of one of the Chen Styles of Taijiquan. He studied (sorry, I don't know my northern history well) with a very famous Yang instructer, who either studied with, or has direct lineage to the founder of Yang style. As an infant, Master Cheung was sent to a temple for a number of years to live and study long fist. When the cultural revolution swept China, there was a price on his head, due to his martial prowess, as we as a few locally well known challenges imposed on him. So, as a young man, he fled for his life to Korea. After a few years, he returned to China, narrowly escaping with his life. Went back to Korea and then on to the U.S. Wish I had more details for you (and me!) :-( He is very old fashioned and is of the mind that, well, if you are there to study, he is there to teach...and he is VERY humble...so getting info, and then decifering his sort-of english is tough bisiness! LOL
If you have the time, or the desire. I would very much enjoy hearing any thoughts you have on Praying Mantis, no matter what theyare. I studied 2 southern styles for a number of years (together, almost 20 years) and I would love to hear anything you may wish to say about P.M. or long fist. Many thanks! :-)

mantis108
06-15-2000, 02:50 AM
Hi all,

Great post by all.

I study Tai Chi Praying Mantis which I believe was branched off from Mui Fa (plum blossom). My Sigung was Chui Chuk Kai. Thanks to Sigung's efforts, our lineage enjoys the benefit of Tai Chi (Chen style small circles). Over the past 15 years or so, I have been working on linear/circular, Hard/soft, high/low planes, Four ranges of combat, etc... I come to a conclusion (this is of course my own observations and I do not speak for the other practitioners). All these, on solo, boil down to three facts: balance, mobility (footwork), and breathing.

Balance gives the moves the "Gong" (solid aspect). No "meaningful" strikes, even in defense, can come about without a strong balance.

Mobility articulates "Yau"(soft aspect). Without good fookwork all the study of linear/circular, planes, and ranges,etc... became empty.

Breathing brings out the "Jing Shan" (esscence, the right dose of ying/yang) of the moves. Try to execute the same movement with or without the correct breathing. I'm sure you'll be suprised by the difference.

IMHO, I think these three facts are important to Mantis which is primarily as a striking art.

BTW, I condition the lower limbs first, then the mid-section, Last the upper body.

In the spirit of this thread, I share my limited knowledge with everyone.

Peace and joy to all

Mantis108


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Contraria Sunt Complementa

laughing tiger
06-15-2000, 04:05 AM
Mantis108, great post! Thanks for the sharing of your knowledge and wisdom. Hey, I learned something today. Woohoo! (doing a little tiger dance):-)

Michael Dasargo
06-19-2000, 11:30 AM
Laughing Tiger,

Just out of curiosity, is your teacher also known as "Lin"?

Just wondering,

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M.Dasargo
The Traditinal Kung Fu Academy
San Diego, CA.USA

laughing tiger
06-19-2000, 01:15 PM
Hi Micheal! hmmm..not that I know of. He's in Orange County. Isn't there someone named "Lin" on a website? Thought I saw his name somewhere. Oh well, not my Sifu.He is tall, slender, and very old fashioned...quiet, kind and likes nice people. Doesn't talk a lot.

molum_jr
06-24-2000, 05:30 PM
When I studied with William Fong, one of the younger disciple of Tai Chi Mantis from the Chu, Chuk-Kai lineage, we would get visitors from China checking us out.

Apparently, Plum Blossom Mantis is also known in China as Tai Chi Mantis. Our schools were not connected in any way. I have seen some old pamplets in SF Chinatown, from Taiwan, that were reprints of PRC editions of Plum Blossom Mantis.

bamboo_ leaf
07-14-2000, 11:51 PM
looking to conect with some plum flower, in the sf/ca area.

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enjoy life

bamboo leaf

[This message has been edited by bamboo_ leaf (edited 07-15-2000).]

MIA
08-08-2000, 05:22 PM
It's strange for someone from Shandong (that is, if he was born and raised there after 1949) to claim to know Babu (8 Step) Tanglangquan when it is hardly, if not, practiced at all in Mainland China. The 8 Step Tanglangquan system was brought to Taiwan by Wei Xiao-tang and is now mostly practiced in Taiwan, the United States (via Xun Guang-long), and other parts of the world. Overall, the 8 Step Tanglangquan system is rare in Mainland China since Feng Huan-yi did not transmit his art to many students there.

‘Taiji Meihua Tanglangquan’ is the name chosen to refer to the ‘Plum Flower Mantis Boxing’ practiced in Mainland China. The main figure of this tanglangquan system was Liang Xue-xiang, whose students later branched out to form their own systems of ‘Plum Flower Mantis Boxing.’ One student of Liang Xue-xiang was Jiang Hua-long, who later became famous throughout most of China for his fighting skills.

Jiang had several students, and 3 of these students became famous in Shandong, namely Cui Shou-Shan, Wang Yu-shan, and Li Kun Shan. The latter 3 became known as the "3 Mountains of Laiyang County."*

(* The last Chinese ideogram representing all 3 men's names were 'Shan,' meaning 'mountain.' Laiyang County in Shandong Province is where many famous Tanglangquan practitioners were from.)

One of the ‘3 Mountains of Laiyang,’ Li Kun-Shan, eventually brought his system of tanglangquan to Taiwan, where it is known as ‘Meihua Tanglangquan’ (Plum Flower Mantis Boxing). Another of Jiang Hua-long's students, Ji Chun-ting, settled in Korea and taught the ‘Plum Flower Mantis Boxing’ system there. Of course, another later student of Jiang Hua-long was Feng Huan-yi, who was taught a combination of Tanglangquan, Hsing-I Ch'uan, Tongbeiquan, and Pakua Ch'uan (not to be confused with Pakua Zhang) to form the 8 Step Tanglangquan system.

Speaking of the 8 Step Tanglangquan system, it is definitely one of the more practical tanglangquan systems, which makes effective use of ti, da, shuai, na (kick, punch, throw, and joint locking) combinations. Its footwork is relatively different from other tanglangquan systems. Generally speaking, if a practitioner has practiced Meihua Tanglangquan beforehand, he can see that 8 Step Tanglangquan system still retains most of the original Meihua Tanglangquan techniques, albeit making effective use of techniques taken from other martial art styles that Jiang Hua-long or Feng Huan-yi later incorporated into the fighting system. In any case, there isn't much information about Feng Huan-yi except through the accounts of his student, Wei Xiao-tang, who also contributed greatly to the further development of 8 Step Tanglangquan.

Qixing (7 Star) Tanglangquan is mostly dominated by the system's Hongkong lineage. The Hongkong system of 7 Star Tanglangquan was brought to Southern China via Luo Guang-yu and subsequently introduced to the United States by later successors of the style. One prominent characteristic of 7 Star Tanglangquan is its use of the 'Qixing Bu' (Seven Star Stance) to sweep or trip opponents, but then this technique is also widely used by other tanglangquan systems. In most practitioners’ opinions, 7 Star Tanglangquan has a lot in common with Meihua Tanglangquan, that is, given the fact that practitioners of both tanglangquan systems have had a history of exchanging ideas on fighting techniques. The only difference, however, between the 2 Tanglangquan systems would be the names and content of their forms.

Currently, the Hongkong 7 Star Tanglangquan system is the most widely seen and practiced tanglangquan system in the United States. Overall, practitioners of the Hongkong 7 Star Tanglangquan system have contributed greatly in organizing and promoting the practice of tanglangquan in the United States. In contrast, Meihua Tanglangquan (or Taiji Meihua Tanglangquan) is the most popular style of tanglangquan that is practiced in the Mainland China. However, there are many 7 Star Tanglangquan practitioners still teaching and promoting the system in Shandong and other areas of China.

On the other hand, ‘Taiji Tanglangquan’ (also romanized as ‘Taichi Tang Lang Ch’uan’) is a different branch of tanglangquan and has very little in common with Taiji Meihua Tanglangquan or Meihua Tanglangquan.

[This message has been edited by MIA (edited 08-09-2000).]

bamboo_ leaf
08-08-2000, 07:53 PM
great post lot of info, was wondering if you could conatact me off line.

my ICQ number is listed in my profile.

thanks

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enjoy life

bamboo leaf