hua jin and Fa jin

[Hendrik]

Would you like to share your experience on how to cultivate hua jin (dissolve jin) and fa jin (issuing jin)?

May be it is good to start with the definition of what is hua jin and fa jin and continous on to the process of how this phenomenon manifest by one.

[Scott R. Brown]

Would you like to share your experience on how to cultivate hua jin (dissolve jin) and fa jin (issuing jin)?

May be it is good to start with the definition of what is hua jin and fa jin and continous on to the process of how this phenomenon manifest by one.

You first! Why would anyone want to answer you when all you do is condescend in return?

Define the terms yourself and then tell us how you train them.

Then we will be happy to correct you and condescend to you!

If you want to know what I have to say about fa jin, do a search. I wrote something about it about 6 or 7 years ago.

But FIRST

YOU tell us what YOU think about!

[bawang]

how to get fajin

1. stand in front of sand bag
2. hit it
3. ???
4. get fajin

[Scott R. Brown]

Hey!! You took out your purple cow reference....now my post doesn't make any sense!:p

[bawang]

i dont know what u r talking about. there is no purple cow.

ur crazy

[Scott R. Brown]

i dont know what u r talking about. there is no purple cow.

ur crazy

Well, that explains everything then...thank you for clearing that up for me!

You are wiser than Hendrik and do your sifu proud!

[Hendrik]

Well, that explains everything then...thank you for clearing that up for me!

You are wiser than Hendrik and do your sifu proud!



You generate so much noise as usual.

[YouKnowWho]

how to get fajin

1. stand in front of sand bag
2. hit it
3. ???
4. get fajin

That's better than hitting in the thin air as most of the "performers" do and that's for sure. We still need to traing:

- How to create a chace for Fajin.
- Where to hit.
- Use which part of our body to hit.

We should not talk about MA as "solo" without the reference of "opponent". During discussion, it's too easy to lead the discussion into "performance", "health", "meditation" and away from "combat".

1st it's difficult to use Hua (dissolve) Jin to dissolve a punch to your head or a kick to your knee. 2nd it's easier to move out of the way and then borrow the force than try to "dissolve" it. Dissolve means "make it disapper" which violate the principle of "borrow your opponent's force to against your opponent". If your opponent loans you $500 and you just throw it into toilet, it won't do anybody any good.

[Scott R. Brown]

You generate so much noise as usual.

What do you do.......in order to not waste your last few brain cells you just post the same thing on every thread?

Try thinking up a new insult for each thread, or your posts become the noise you complain about, just like everything else all you know is how to hypocrisy!


That's better than hitting in the thin air as most of the "performers" do and that's for sure. We still need to traing:

- How to create a chace for Fajin.
- Where to hit.
- Use which part of our body to hit.

We should not talk about MA as "solo" without the reference of "opponent". During discussion, it's too easy to lead the discussion into "performance", "health", "meditation" and away from "combat".

1st it's difficult to use Hua (dissolve) Jin to dissolve a punch to your head or a kick to your knee. 2nd it's easier to move out of the way and then borrow the force than try to "dissolve" it. Dissolve means "make it disapper" which violate the principle of "borrow your opponent's force to against your opponent". If your opponent loans you $500 and you just throw it into toilet, it won't do anybody any good.

Nice post and good points.

Hitting air can never demonstrate proper power.

Power and dissolve always depends upon ones base and balance. Force is generated according to these.

The best way to dissolve a force to the head is to meet the force. Proper timing is a must. Just as the strike is about to meet your skull abruptly in a sharp movement of about only one to two inches, move towards the force. This breaks the timing of the incoming force and reduces the power. It can also break the fist and/or wrist of the assailant if timed properly.

Of course, one must focus the impact you receive to the harder portions of your skull and not your jaw. You could do it with your nose, but it will still most likely break....and hurt!

[bawang]

1st it's difficult to use Hua (dissolve) Jin to dissolve a punch to your head or a kick to your knee. 2nd it's easier to move out of the way and then borrow the force than try to "dissolve" it. Dissolve means "make it disapper" which violate the principle of "borrow your opponent's force to against your opponent". If your opponent loans you $500 and you just throw it into toilet, it won't do anybody any good.


borrowing force is reverse throws and counter punching. dissolving is parrying and evading.

[Scott R. Brown]

borrowing force is reverse throws and counter punching. dissolving is parrying and evading.

What would you call biting! Tasting the opponents Chi?

[bawang]

hua jin dissolving force actually means putting ice cubes up your anus and letting them melt "dissolve". this greatly increases your qi especially if you practice siu nim tao very slow at the same time.
if you dont have ice u can use sugar molasses carrots etc

[taai gihk yahn]

hua jin dissolving force actually means putting ice cubes up your anus and letting them melt "dissolve". this greatly increases your qi especially if you practice siu nim tao very slow at the same time.
if you dont have ice u can use sugar molasses carrots etc

stop revealing Hendrick's secret training regimen!

[Scott R. Brown]

stop revealing Hendrick's secret training regimen!

Now that you said that I have to take the ice cubes out of my butt.......good thing I didn't try the molasses carrots first!

[KTS]

is dissolving and issuing really that different?

[SPJ]

is dissolving and issuing really that different?

yes it can happen at one stroke.

1. basing on space and timing

you yield or avoid most of the power from the opponent

2. you then contact and control the opponent's forearm, wrist, elbow. shoulder etc

most of your neutralizing or dissolving

already done in 1

3. you guide the opponent's force away from your vital area and release or fa your jin at the same time.

again timing and space/positioning are everything.

so your hua and fa can be done in a sequence.

---

or you may hua and da

or you may hua and na

or you may hua and shuai

---

[Hendrik]

hua jin dissolving force actually means putting ice cubes up your anus and letting them melt "dissolve". this greatly increases your qi especially if you practice siu nim tao very slow at the same time.
if you dont have ice u can use sugar molasses carrots etc



you might like to make fun of hua jin, however, those who have hua jin ability, for example if you press on their chest, they just have to let go without withdraw or resist and redirect. but intent to let their force pivot dissolve, the one who press will feel like pushing soft pillow where they cannot land their force.

Thus, this is not the same with withdraw, resist, redirect force with intention. but using intention to command dissolving. in this type of hua jin, one doesnt use much space or force but re alighn one's six direction force vectors with intention.

Thus, one feather cannot be added because one doesnt let the other party to find the force point.

[SPJ]

yes there are may ways of hua jin

what you just described is called absorption or xi hua.

:cool:

[Scott R. Brown]

hua jin dissolving force actually means putting ice cubes up your anus and letting them melt "dissolve". this greatly increases your qi especially if you practice siu nim tao very slow at the same time.
if you dont have ice u can use sugar molasses carrots etc


you might like to make fun of hua jin......

Most people call it "a sense of humor".....you should look into getting one yourself....if your sifu gives you permission of course!:p


...those who have hua jin ability, for example if you press on their chest, they just have to let go without withdraw or resist and redirect. but intent to let their force pivot dissolve, the one who press will feel like pushing soft pillow where they cannot land their force.

....they could also reverse the force and send the opponent onto their butt!

[Hendrik]

yes there are may ways of hua jin

what you just described is called absorption or xi hua.

:cool:


SPJ,

Ya, there are so many things from this field, I come to know this is possible after decades of searching. without being clearly explain to me, i would never know it is possible.

[Hendrik]

....they could also reverse the force and send the opponent onto their butt!

Reverse is completed by Xi Hua alone.
It is the opponents who lost the force focal point in supprise break their own root and bounce back/out with thier own force in order to balance their own act.

to slip in jin or issue jin at the movement of the opponents bounce back is going for damaging similar to shoot a crossbow arrow into the bulls' eye. which most wont do due to mo duk.

Thus, Fa jin and Hua jin are different, in the scientific term,

Fa jin is to align many dynamics three diamentional force vectors to form a resultant force for a certain purpose such as penetration.

Hua jin is for de-align or scatered out the resultant force into many force vectors and disolve it.

When one's physical body is able to adapt to the alignment and de alignment, one uses Intention to manifest the force vectors operation and thus it says using the Yee not force. If one reach this state, This is the state of Dong Jin.




only then one could make sense of the



There are many other kinds of martial arts. Although their forms are distinct from one another, overall they are nothing more than the strong taking advantage of the weak, or merely the slow yielding to the quick. Having strength to strike those without strength, the slow of hand giving way to the quick of hand - these are all from inherent natural ability, and bear no relationship to the capability that comes from earnest study. Examine the expression "Four ounces deflect one thousand pounds." Clearly this is not accomplished by means of strength. Observe a situation in which one who is aged can skillfully fend off a throng. How can this ability be one of speed?

in The Tai Chi Treatise of Wang Zong Yue

Because one plays with the alignment and de-alignment platform which goes beyond form and strength.




These skill comes from lots of in depth technics, doing the sink chi to dan dien... alone will not get there because this is something build on top of the basic.


however, after one has the skill, then every inhale and exhale could be hua jin and fa jin because it reach the state of Tze Ran and Tze Roo, Tze Ran means it smoothly resonance , Tze Roo means it is effortless. notice I use the term resonance not Nature as most will translate Tze Ran. This is because it is about resonance with the universe not about self interpreation of one's own habit or believe or theory. It is how one syncronize with the rythm of the universe. as for Tze Roo, without the effortless, one's kung fu is still forceful and not ready.

In my personal experience, I really dont see how one can get the basic of this without one or more experience sifu who has mastered the art and also a deligent practice of atleast two hours a day for say three to five years.

[KC Elbows]

That's better than hitting in the thin air as most of the "performers" do and that's for sure. We still need to traing:

- How to create a chace for Fajin.
- Where to hit.
- Use which part of our body to hit.

We should not talk about MA as "solo" without the reference of "opponent". During discussion, it's too easy to lead the discussion into "performance", "health", "meditation" and away from "combat".

1st it's difficult to use Hua (dissolve) Jin to dissolve a punch to your head or a kick to your knee. 2nd it's easier to move out of the way and then borrow the force than try to "dissolve" it. Dissolve means "make it disapper" which violate the principle of "borrow your opponent's force to against your opponent". If your opponent loans you $500 and you just throw it into toilet, it won't do anybody any good.

Good post.

[KC Elbows]

Reverse is completed by Xi Hua alone.
It is the opponents who lost the force focal point in supprise break their own root and bounce back/out with thier own force in order to balance their own act.

to slip in jin or issue jin at the movement of the opponents bounce back is going for damaging similar to shoot a crossbow arrow into the bulls' eye. which most wont do due to mo duk.

Thus, Fa jin and Hua jin are different, in the scientific term,

Fa jin is to align many dynamics three diamentional force vectors to form a resultant force for a certain purpose such as penetration.

Hua jin is for de-align or scatered out the resultant force into many force vectors and disolve it.

When one's physical body is able to adapt to the alignment and de alignment, one uses Intention to manifest the force vectors operation and thus it says using the Yee not force. If one reach this state, This is the state of Dong Jin.




only then one could make sense of the



in The Tai Chi Treatise of Wang Zong Yue

Because one plays with the alignment and de-alignment platform which goes beyond form and strength.




These skill comes from lots of in depth technics, doing the sink chi to dan dien... alone will not get there because this is something build on top of the basic.


however, after one has the skill, then every inhale and exhale could be hua jin and fa jin because it reach the state of Tze Ran and Tze Roo, Tze Ran means it smoothly resonance , Tze Roo means it is effortless. notice I use the term resonance not Nature as most will translate Tze Ran. This is because it is about resonance with the universe not about self interpreation of one's own habit or believe or theory. It is how one syncronize with the rythm of the universe. as for Tze Roo, without the effortless, one's kung fu is still forceful and not ready.

In my personal experience, I really dont see how one can get the basic of this without one or more experience sifu who has mastered the art and also a deligent practice of atleast two hours a day for say three to five years.

Liked this post as well.

[Hendrik]

1st it's difficult to use Hua (dissolve) Jin to dissolve a punch to your head or a kick to your knee. 2nd it's easier to move out of the way and then borrow the force than try to "dissolve" it. Dissolve means "make it disapper" which violate the principle of "borrow your opponent's force to against your opponent". If your opponent loans you $500 and you just throw it into toilet, it won't do anybody any good.


Logically you are right.

However, Hua jin is also the basis of Iron within cotton where if by accident or no choice situation one has to take the impact. One could cut the damage to the minimum or even scratch-less.


BTW : move out of the way and then borrow the force doesnt work for advance players because there are set up....etc. often you cannot sustain an inch you lost a thousand mile.

IE if you move out from the center line attact of the WingChunner. you dead because you will not able to gain momentum before their chain punches lander on you like a mechine gun. If you move away from a grapple you also dead because you also lost the proper momentum or walk into a trap.

The chinese said, using the face to face to encounter and special / unpredictive to defeat. if one doesnt have the jin handling under thier belt. chances is they could not face the encounter and no way to defeat with special. Thus, mind speculation is great but when it comes to the real deal one needs all weapons one can get, so that one can face off and win with unpredictive.

[YouKnowWho]

move out of the way and then borrow the force doesnt work for advance players ...

This is not a fair comparsion. If your opponent is higher level than you, nothing will work no matter what you do.


If you move away from a grapple you also dead because you also lost the proper momentum or walk into a trap.
I'm sure you have heard, "Lead your opponent into the emptiness." When your opponent shoots at your leading leg, if you step your leg back (increase the distance), press and pull the back of his neck, and "borrow his force", you can make him to "eat sh!t like a dog".


doesnt work for advance players ... if you move out from the center line attact of the WingChunner. you dead because ... If you move away from a grapple you also dead ...
All WC guys and grapplers have 3 heads and 6 arms. When they come, we (Taiji guys) had better to put our tail between our legs and run like hell. Training in Taiji doesn't mean that we should lose faith in ourselves? :D

We should have confidence that if we want our opponent to fall on the east, they won't dare to fall on the west.

[Scott R. Brown]

This is not a fair comparsion. If your opponent is higher level than you, nothing will work no matter what you do.

If we want to get technical....nothing beats a good gun! It takes less time to train to use it effectively and it wins every time its tried!

[YouKnowWho]

nothing beats a good gun!

Someone once said,

- If your opponent beats you with open hands, you should come back with a knife.
- If he still beats you with knife, you should come back with a gun.
- If he still beats you with gun, you shoul get a rope, find a quite place, and hang yourself.

[SPJ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qezdj40SZcE&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N59msUnyy1g

take cover or get out of line of fire asap

or just shoot back

but always take cover first.


---

:D

[SPJ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qezdj40SZcE&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N59msUnyy1g

take cover or get out of line of fire asap

or just shoot back

but always take cover first.


---

:D

just like firing a gun, we have to know both the firing and recieving ends.

fa jin and hua jin althou different ends

we have to understand both

that is if the opponent is fa jin how do we hua his fa jin

----

[Hendrik]

just like firing a gun, we have to know both the firing and recieving ends.

fa jin and hua jin althou different ends

we have to understand both

that is if the opponent is fa jin how do we hua his fa jin

----



yes, that is true.

[Hendrik]

I'm sure you have heard, "Lead your opponent into the emptiness."


sure, without have to move an inch using hua jin into lead him to not be able to land his force.

But one needs to learn hua jin instead of moving away or withdraw.

Withdraw is Tiu, Resisting is Ting. Both are not the way.

[Scott R. Brown]

just like firing a gun, we have to know both the firing and recieving ends.

fa jin and hua jin althou different ends

we have to understand both

that is if the opponent is fa jin how do we hua his fa jin

----

All you need do is out fa jin his fa jin, unless you are smaller than him!

[Hendrik]

All you need do is out fa jin his fa jin, unless you are smaller than him!



That is exactly the following description of non Taiji.


There are many other kinds of martial arts. Although their forms are distinct from one another, overall they are nothing more than the strong taking advantage of the weak, or merely the slow yielding to the quick. Having strength to strike those without strength, the slow of hand giving way to the quick of hand - these are all from inherent natural ability, and bear no relationship to the capability that comes from earnest study.

[Scott R. Brown]

That is exactly the following description of non Taiji.

Yeah...I can see you now Hendrik......"I'm sorry Mister Bad Guy, since I cannot defeat you with my Tai Chi you may crush me and hear the lamentation of my women!":eek:

It isn't about defeating an attacker with Tai Chi, it is about defeating an attacker PERIOD!!!

If you are THAT concerned about defeating your attacker with style, you deserve to lose!

[YouKnowWho]

defeating your attacker with style,
If you can be as rich as Bill Gates, you don't need to borrow. The concept of making you the richest person on earth seems is missing in the Taiji system.

When a Taiji guy is as strong as our California governor, borrow force will have little meaning.

http://galeriekulturistiky.webz.cz/arnold/Arnold%2014.jpg

[Scott R. Brown]

Using a gun is also not using Tai Chi principles according to Henrik, but it will kick ass on every Tai Chi practitioner alive AND dead!

But heaven forbid winning or surviving in the easiest manner possible should be a priority!

BTW: If you have won by either escaping or defeating the enemy or at the very least survived the assault, you have followed true Tai Chi principles!

If you are dead or critically injured when you could have won, because you wouldn't use Hendrik's "non-Tai Chi principles", YOU DIDN'T follow true Tai Chi principles!!!

[Scott R. Brown]

If you can be as rich as Bill Gates, you don't need to borrow. The concept of making you the richest person on earth seems is missing in the Taiji system.

When a Taiji guy is as strong as our California governor, borrow force will have little meaning.

I AM a fan of Tai Chi, but I am realistic about it.

What I like to point out to people stuck in the Tai Chi fantasy is:

Yes! Water will wear away the hardest rock, in about a million years, but dynamite will do it in an afternoon!

Soft against hard is an advantage AT TIMES, but HARDER against hard is almost always better, faster and more efficient!

[YouKnowWho]

HARDER against hard is almost always better,
I have always told people that if you think you are the strongest guy in the tournament, the chance that you may be the champion in that tournament will be high.

http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/3249/changmuscle.jpg

[Hendrik]

Yeah...I can see you now Hendrik......"I'm sorry Mister Bad Guy, since I cannot defeat you with my Tai Chi you may crush me and hear the lamentation of my women!":eek:

It isn't about defeating an attacker with Tai Chi, it is about defeating an attacker PERIOD!!!

If you are THAT concerned about defeating your attacker with style, you deserve to lose!


You obviously doesnt know and not practicing

Sher Zi Sui Ren or careless about one ownself and adapt to other,
hou fa sien tze or the later issue and arrive first,

Which means you dont practice Dao or Zen or Taiji or TCM IMA.

[Scott R. Brown]

You obviously doesnt know and not practicing

Sher Zi Sui Ren or careless about one ownself and adapt to other,
hou fa sien tze or the later issue and arrive first,

Which means you dont practice Dao or Zen or Taiji or TCM IMA.

You never cease to amaze me Hendrik! Just when I think you can't say something more foolish than you already have, you go and say something even stupider than before!

Is there no limit to your arrogance and foolishness? The one thing you have kung fu attainment in is foolishness, that is for sure!

I would never say you know nothing about "Dao or Zen or Taiji or TCM IMA", but I would say you appear to have the understanding of a beginner!

You are a pretender and not a very good one at that!

[Hendrik]

Beside talk big, calling name, and personal attack.... all the low act.

what do you really have?

If you like to communicate,
bring a sincere loving heart which promote a mutual understanding communication.






You never cease to amaze me Hendrik! Just when I think you can't say something more foolish than you already have, you go and say something even stupider than before!

Is there no limit to your arrogance and foolishness? The one thing you have kung fu attainment in is foolishness, that is for sure!

I would never say you know nothing about "Dao or Zen or Taiji or TCM IMA", but I would say you appear to have the understanding of a beginner!

You are a pretender and not a very good one at that!

[Scott R. Brown]

Beside talk big, calling name, and personal attack.... all the low act.

what do you really have?

If you like to communicate,
bring a sincere loving heart which promote a mutual understanding communication.

Yes Hendrik, you don't come right out and say things directly, as I do, you play passive/aggressive games and insult people in a more round about, but not so subtle ways. Just about everyone can see it, but you! I just call you on it.

I treat you the same way you treat me and others. If you don't like it start by setting an example and acting more appropriately yourself.

I am not trying to set myself up to others as an all-knowing wise person, I only treat you this way. I don't condescend to others and treat them with ridicule, I only treat you this way!

I don't pretend to know what I do not know, as you do. I do not presume to instruct others for their own benefit, but really stroke my own ego, as you do!

I am not ignorant of what I am doing, as you are!

I do not talk about loving others and then insult them in veiled and condescending ways, as you do!

Grow up or go play somewhere else if you can't stand the heat.

Otherwise get used to it, because as long as you presume to condescend to me and others, as long as you pretend to know things you do not, as long as you give poor advice, as long as you make ignorant statements you cannot support, as long as you play with the big boys, I will enjoy playing with you.

I am the Yin to your Yang and the Yang to your Yin. If you really understood Tao and Zen and TMA and IMA you should have figured all this out by now, but apparently your ego is so big it has blinded you to your own ignorance!

[Scott R. Brown]

When a Taiji guy is as strong as our California governor, borrow force will have little meaning.

I just recalled an interview with Franco Colombo many years ago. I don't think it was in Pumping Iron, but it might have been. He was taking some martial arts class. (BTW he was a boxer before he took up bodybuilding) He made the comment, "When someone hits me, I will still be standing, when I hit them, they will fall down!"

[SPJ]

tai chi is about balance.

1. if the opponent is fast, there are ways to deal with that.

2. if the opponent is slow, there are also ways to deal with that.


--

she ji chong ren. forget about ourself and follow the opponent.

hou fa xiang zi. start later but win/control the opponent first/early.

yes, these are ideas about tai chi fighting methods.

--

but if the opponent is weak or slow, we may cai lie zhou kao

if the opponent is strong and fast, we peng lu ji an

---

if the opponent is using a gun

we may use machine gun, grenade, bazooker, drone-- take cover, bullet vest, bullet proof shield etc

--

tai chi is about centering and balancing among all factors.

--

you come I welcom you.

you go I send you home.

there are ways to deal with all things

that is the idea of tai chi.

--

[SPJ]

listening to the rain

or watch the flows of the water/river.

rains keep dropping, they are continuous

tai chi is like a long river flowing constantly or waves after waves

---

the wind blows, the raindrops swing to the side

the water of a river meets a rock, it bypasses or moves around it

--

tai chi is not about meeting resistance head on

tai chi is about bypassing the strong point/resistance and going toward least or less resistant area

in your posture, hand moves, steps and using of the force.

they are yielding, but strong and continuous

let the raindrops hit your face

let the river water flow and bypass your feet

--

[SPJ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3_yLPadDfY&playnext_from=TL&videos=eKuNP6kHp8E

1. cai lie zhou kao are short burst of power issuing like rain drops

they interrupt the opponent's power abruptly or horizontally.

2. peng lu ji an are long and continuing power like a river flows.

they introduce circular power and merge into the opponent's flow of power

rotation of your waist is the main drive, your forearm is following the opponent

---

power issuing.

----

[SPJ]

fighting with the style

this is tough to respond.

we may solve the fighting problems with the same solutions

how to approach it. it is dictated by your style,

--

hua jin

in general

1. you may solve with wrist and hand, solve it with wrist and hand movement

2. if not, recruit the elbow

3. if not, recruit the shoulder

4. if not, recruit the waist

5. if not, change the steps/postures/position

or all of the above

some styles stress certain areas more

--

[Hendrik]

the secret of hua jin starts in the sole and feet.