american military and violence

[uki]

i thought i'd create this for everyone to post about the violence our military uses against innocent people... some people believe that the american military is honorable, charitable, and morally responsible - made up of a high standard of individuals. :rolleyes:

http://www.allgov.com/Top_Stories/ViewNews/McChrystal_Admits_US_Troops_are_Killing_Innocent_A fghans_at_Checkpoints_100405

http://www.wikileaks.org/

general macarthur was such a swell guy... of course no one will tell you that all those rounded up and sent to fort pickens were executed by firing squad and not by the labour day hurricane... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonus_Army

http://www.whatdoesitmean.com/index1358.htm

please feel free to add your own stories of the humane actions of the modern american military.

:)

[David Jamieson]

so you want to start a fight with military people because of some cherry picked sins of some guy from 50 years ago who was acting during an insane world war?

War is sinful and there is no just war.

So, what can you do about it yourself except not be a soldier?

Picking fights and pointing at failings doesn't do anything but create division, close doors and cause animosity and division in a community.

There is another angle of approach and confrontation is not it. :)

[uki]

so you want to start a fight with military people because of some cherry picked sins of some guy from 50 years ago who was acting during an insane world war?

War is sinful and there is no just war.

So, what can you do about it yourself except not be a soldier?

Picking fights and pointing at failings doesn't do anything but create division, close doors and cause animosity and division in a community.

There is another angle of approach and confrontation is not it. i am simply bringing another angle of perception to the table... i am not the one who will drag people off to arrest and execute them. :)

[David Jamieson]

i am simply bringing another angle of perception to the table... i am not the one who will drag people off to arrest and execute them. :)

MacArthur has been dead longer than many here have been alive.

Why not compare apples to apples.
All leaders were culpable for the deaths of innocent people during all wars.

Why single out a guy who has been dead for years?

You, as an American are complicit in the deaths of thousands. Let's talk about your crimes against humanity for doing nothing while the people you support attack and kill others.

You are an American. You are culpable for those deaths unless you personally take direct action to stop the atrocities committed by people you are part of.

[uki]

Why single out a guy who has been dead for years?to show that the american military will fire upon and kill it's own citizens if ordered to - that's all...

[sanjuro_ronin]

to show that the american military will fire upon and kill it's own citizens if ordered to - that's all...

ALL military can do that, what is your point?

Do you know how m any people the American military employs as soldiers?

[Scott R. Brown]

Or to add a PROPER perspective here....how many people has the American military SAVED???

[sanjuro_ronin]

Or to add a PROPER perspective here....how many people has the American military SAVED???

Well, that is a given.
The point I wanted to make is that, with 100's of thousands of soldiers in their service, what is the % that shouldn't be soldiers?
And how does that rate VS any other employment?
Look, there is crap in the military, that is a given, just as there is crap in law enforcement, in the medical professions, in the engineering professions, teachings, etc.
I mean, to make note that there is a tendency for violence in the military is like saying there is a tendency for lying in politics and a tendency for pole sliding in the fire department.

[Scott R. Brown]

I understood that...I was just addressing uki's point.

While it is important to address injustice no matter where it is found. The implication that the entire military is guilty of the actions of a few is itself unjust!

Weed out the bad apples is the appropriate response, NOT throwing the baby out with the bath water.

With all it problems...the American military has saved more human beings and brought relative freedom to more human beings than any other person or group in the history of mankind.

Fix the problems but do not tar the many along with the few. There are bad apples in all groups!

[sanjuro_ronin]

I understood that...I was just addressing uki's point.

While it is important to address injustice no matter where it is found. The implication that the entire military is guilty of the actions of a few is itself unjust!

Weed out the bad apples is the appropriate response, NOT throwing the baby out with the bath water.

With all it problems...the American military has saved more human beings and brought relative freedom to more human beings than any other person or group in the history of mankind.

Fix the problems but do not tar the many along with the few. There are bad apples in all groups!

Agreed.
It's easy to point out the failings of anything, even more easy when we don't have to do anything but point out the failings.
Some hate cops because of a few bad apples, but sleep at night because of the vast majority of good apples.
Some hate the military because of some bad apples, but can protest and hate them because they are free to do so because of the vast majority of good apples.

[David Jamieson]

active and reserves account for almost 3 million American service personnel

1.5 is active, 1.5 is reserve.

they serve all over the planet.

The actions of one or two servicemen or generals is not the scope of what the US military does or brings to the table.

[1bad65]

You want to bring up war crimes in WWII and say the US was bad?!?!?

I could fill this forum up with documented war crimes by just the Japanese alone. Are you trolling, or just completely ignorant about the facts of war craimes in WWII?

[1bad65]

active and reserves account for almost 3 million American service personnel

1.5 is active, 1.5 is reserve.

they serve all over the planet.

The actions of one or two servicemen or generals is not the scope of what the US military does or brings to the table.

Well said.

[Dragonzbane76]

american military and violence

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

i thought i'd create this for everyone to post about the violence our military uses against innocent people... some people believe that the american military is honorable, charitable, and morally responsible - made up of a high standard of individuals.

http://www.allgov.com/Top_Stories/Vi...kpoints_100405

http://www.wikileaks.org/

general macarthur was such a swell guy... of course no one will tell you that all those rounded up and sent to fort pickens were executed by firing squad and not by the labour day hurricane... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonus_Army

http://www.whatdoesitmean.com/index1358.htm

please feel free to add your own stories of the humane actions of the modern american military.

ding ding the troll boat has come ashore.

http://images.roflposters.com/images/rofl/myspace/1203295287367.jpg.%5Broflposters.com%5D.myspace.jp g

[SanHeChuan]

Violence is what the military does. That's like getting mad at a fish for having scales. It would be nice to have dedicated trained emergency humanitarian units in the military though.

As to the current issuse brought up about killing civilians at check points. There is an escalation of force, and these Iraqi civians have no respect for the danger they are in. They roll up to check point headlessly, they don't respond of commands to stop, they don't stop when you fire warning shots. Who would let some vehicle recklessly hurlling towards you get there. If you were rollling up to an armed check point wouldn't you do so cautiously? They need to insitute drivers education for Iraqis to stop these check point deaths. They are tragic but the soliders first priority is protecting themselves.



http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A28924-2005Mar12.html
The realities of checkpoints in Iraq make random shooting at responsible drivers very unlikely. I'm currently reporting a story on a unit of American soldiers. They're drilled with a stopwatch in the task of setting up a checkpoint -- a "serpentine" of concertina wire, at least three orange cones and, ****hest out, a warning sign. These warning barriers are never forgotten, because soldiers are scared of car bombs. The ****her out a car has to slow down, the better. You will never see disagreement within a platoon over this basic fact of self-preservation.

[Hardwork108]

Or to add a PROPER perspective here....how many people has the American military SAVED???

I hear that they are "saving" people in Iraq every day. Some say that the number of people the American military has "saved" in Iraq is around a million, not counting the US soldiers who have themselves been "saved" by their Iraqui enemies......

[Hardwork108]

Violence is what the military does. That's like getting mad at a fish for having scales. It would be nice to have dedicated trained emergency humanitarian units in the military though.

As to the current issuse brought up about killing civilians at check points. There is an escalation of force, and these Iraqi civians have no respect for the danger they are in. They roll up to check point headlessly, they don't respond of commands to stop, they don't stop when you fire warning shots. Who would let some vehicle recklessly hurlling towards you get there. If you were rollling up to an armed check point wouldn't you do so cautiously? They need to insitute drivers education for Iraqis to stop these check point deaths. They are tragic but the soliders first priority is protecting themselves.


Have a look at Uki's second link. This was not a check point incident and actual occurances had been hidden from the public until very recently. Here it is again:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rXPrfnU3G0

It seems that the soldiers involved in this had "bad eye sights"; could not count; were incapable of identifying weapons, and were anxious to kill!

And to add insult to injury such brain dead soldiers, or those amongst them who survive, come back home and start posting in forums such as this one, where they continue to protect the official position regarding ANYTHING, while referring to anyone who questions the government line, as tin had wearers, conspiracy theorists and so on....LOL

Anyway, I guess that we don't have to stretch our imaginations too far to see that these type of incidents happen regularly over in Iraq, and that the US military sees the Iraquis as nothing more than subhumans, to be killed on a whim. Rather like the US and other First World countries' elite (who are actually behind wars such as this one), view their own military personnel, that is, as mere "animals" who are used as cannon fodder for the benefit of their "intellectually superior" masters.

So the killing will continue and people will seat around and justify all the murder and mayhem (not to mention the day light robbery, suffered by the Iraqi people), until one of these guys wakes up one day and finds a child or a family member of his in a dozen pieces. Perhaps only then he would stop buying the crappy arguments that he may have been peddling up to now.

OF course, this scenario is unlikely to happen in most First World countries and I would not wish it on anyone but I believe that people should stop acting like brain washed zombies!!!!

The war in Iraq is about OIL and PROFIT, together with the fulfillment of some sick New World Order, which major politicians have started to refer to more openly in recent years.

That is all!

It has nothing to do with "saving" the Iraqis from Saddam Hussain, as the Elites of the world do not give a **** about their own people, let alone people on the other side of the world.

It has nothing to do about spreading freedom and democracy, as the countries as the US is not a free country, nor is it Democratic, and nor are any of its allies.

So again, it is daylight robbery and murder, together with a control agenda, known as the New World Order. Anyone who justifies all this suffering as something "necessary" or "noble", is either lying, delusional or brainwashed to the point of insanity!

[uki]

So the killing will continue and people will seat around and justify all the murder and mayhem (not to mention the day light robbery, suffered by the Iraqi people), until one of these guys wakes up one day and finds a child or a family member of his in a dozen pieces. words of wisdom...

Perhaps only then he would stop buying the crappy arguments that he may have been peddling up to now. now imagine what he would be willing to do in order to avenge the death of his loved one... you can be sure it would be done mercilessly and without hesitation - it's a problem, reaction, solution... terrorists are created by violent occupation of their homelands, communities, and way of life. i would be willing to say that most anyone who takes up arms against any occupying military force is simply avenging the deaths of the men, women, and children that are collaterally destroyed by the occupiers... imagine if a foreign force started patrolling american streets with the "legal" ability to conduct home raids, to arrest people, and to fire upon other people you know and have grown up with... imagine watching your brother, father, or uncle dragged out of the house at dinner time only to be shot for having a gun in the house... who could honestly say they would just sit on their sorry a$$es and watch this?? LOL... i know most every single one of you would take up arms to help protect your country, your people, and your way of life... even at the expense of being called an "insurgent", "enemy combatant", or *gasp* a "terrorist". :)

[bawang]

all those rounded up and sent to fort pickens were executed by firing squad and not by the labour day hurricane

so?hjgjgjg

[Hardwork108]

words of wisdom...
now imagine what he would be willing to do in order to avenge the death of his loved one... you can be sure it would be done mercilessly and without hesitation - it's a problem, reaction, solution... terrorists are created by violent occupation of their homelands, communities, and way of life. i would be willing to say that most anyone who takes up arms against any occupying military force is simply avenging the deaths of the men, women, and children that are collaterally destroyed by the occupiers... imagine if a foreign force started patrolling american streets with the "legal" ability to conduct home raids, to arrest people, and to fire upon other people you know and have grown up with... imagine watching your brother, father, or uncle dragged out of the house at dinner time only to be shot for having a gun in the house... who could honestly say they would just sit on their sorry a$$es and watch this?? LOL... i know most every single one of you would take up arms to help protect your country, your people, and your way of life... even at the expense of being called an "insurgent", "enemy combatant", or *gasp* a "terrorist". :)

Wise words too, Uki. The problem is that many people (including some post here) who should know better, are blinded by their own "intelligence"; perceived intelligence and or just plain insecurity.

They accept the sick system that is screwing them every day - robbing their hard earned money; sending them or their children to kill (innocent people) and die in far away lands, for fabricated causes, where the real reason is, as always, money and power for the few elite masters, while the only thing the individual soldier has to gain is to get back home in one piece, with minimum of trauma.

I just keep my fingers crossed, that the current trend of people waking up, continues and eventually reaches forums such as this one. :)

[uki]

I just keep my fingers crossed, that the current trend of people waking up, continues and eventually reaches forums such as this one. well that's why i am here with you!! :D

[Dragonzbane76]

Wise words too, Uki.

you guys done with the circle jerk?

[uki]

you guys done with the circle jerk?actually we were waiting to pull a bukkake when you arrived. :p

[Dragonzbane76]

i'm not into your weird conspiracy circles... sorry wrong blood on this one

[Scott R. Brown]

you guys done with the circle jerk?

Why? You want in on it? Or thinking about starting your own?

You're a reptilian aren't you?

[Dragonzbane76]

you're a reptilian aren't you?
__________________

very much so. ;)

[Hardwork108]

Why? You want in on it? Or thinking about starting your own?

You're a reptilian aren't you?

Dragonzbane does come across as kind of lizard-like, in a slimy sort of way doesn't he?:D

[Dragonzbane76]

Dragonzbane does come across as kind of lizard-like, in a slimy sort of way doesn't he?

guess you'll never know with your fingers clogging up your ears. :p

[Hardwork108]

actually we were waiting to pull a bukkake when you arrived. :p

:eek:

LOL....

[Hardwork108]

guess you'll never know with your fingers clogging up your ears. :p

LOL, just LOL!

Look who is talking! LOL

[SoCo KungFu]

Violence is what the military does. That's like getting mad at a fish for having scales. It would be nice to have dedicated trained emergency humanitarian units in the military though.

We do. That same military training is used often for many humanitarian purposes.

Who was it that rescued and fed thousands of Filipinos when a typhoon wrecked the island sending 100 foot mud slides wiping out villages? Who forced food to those in need WHILE THEIR VERY OWN PEOPLE with power tried to horde resources to use as leverage against the sick, injured, starving villagers? US Military

Who was it, when an earthquake sent tsunami all across southeast Asia, wiping out entire beaches, covering islands and killing hundreds of thousands of people? US Military (oh and let me tell you, seeing a river of hundreds of dead bodies from up in a helo, not a fun site)

Who was it that restored order to a mob going mad for survival following the broken levies during the Katrina disaster, rendering aid to people that were shooting at the very police and military personnel that were trying to aid them? US Military

Who at this very moment, is trying to heal the sick, wounded and displaced in Haiti? US Military (and I very well may be heading down there shortly due to the shortage of medics)

Just because you don't hear about the good we do on the news doesn't mean its not there and doesn't happen. Fact is, those that want to slam the military at every turn are just as much if not moreso brainwashed by the media than the people they like to so often begrudge. Violence sells, people love scandal. Society really is sick and the media feeds off it. There is a lot of good going on that people are so blind to because, sadly and sickly, its just not entertaining.

[Hardwork108]

We do. That same military training is used often for many humanitarian purposes.

Who was it that rescued and fed thousands of Filipinos when a typhoon wrecked the island sending 100 foot mud slides wiping out villages? Who forced food to those in need WHILE THEIR VERY OWN PEOPLE with power tried to horde resources to use as leverage against the sick, injured, starving villagers? US Military

Who was it, when an earthquake sent tsunami all across southeast Asia, wiping out entire beaches, covering islands and killing hundreds of thousands of people? US Military (oh and let me tell you, seeing a river of hundreds of dead bodies from up in a helo, not a fun site)

Who was it that restored order to a mob going mad for survival following the broken levies during the Katrina disaster, rendering aid to people that were shooting at the very police and military personnel that were trying to aid them? US Military

Who at this very moment, is trying to heal the sick, wounded and displaced in Haiti? US Military (and I very well may be heading down there shortly due to the shortage of medics)

Just because you don't hear about the good we do on the news doesn't mean its not there and doesn't happen. Fact is, those that want to slam the military at every turn are just as much if not moreso brainwashed by the media than the people they like to so often begrudge. Violence sells, people love scandal. Society really is sick and the media feeds off it. There is a lot of good going on that people are so blind to because, sadly and sickly, its just not entertaining.

In short, you do what you are ordered to do. If an order was issued today for you to shoot the people you were feeding last year, then you would do it, while accepting any half baked excuse your political masters (given to them by their own masters) came up with.

No one helps disaster victims out of the kindness of their hearts, as long as elite establishment powers are concerned, that is.

I do recognize that many people on the ground level, even in the military, go beyond the call of duty to help is disaster situations.

However, as far as the top of the pyramid is concerned, helping sufferers is a diplomatic move to look good and more often than not will have a political agenda underneath the "niceness", and frankly, it looks even ridiculous when the same forces who are helping in one part of the world, are assisting in the theft of natural resources by killing and bombing the crap out of innocent people in another part of the world.

So, what is the real face of the power that ultimately controls the US/UK military?

[SoCo KungFu]

In short, you do what you are ordered to do. If an order was issued today for you to shoot the people you were feeding last year, then you would do it, while accepting any half baked excuse your political masters (given to them by their own masters) came up with.

No one helps disaster victims out of the kindness of their hearts, as long as elite establishment powers are concerned, that is.

I do recognize that many people on the ground level, even in the military, go beyond the call of duty to help is disaster situations.

However, as far as the top of the pyramid is concerned, helping sufferers is a diplomatic move to look good and more often than not will have a political agenda underneath the "niceness", and frankly, it looks even ridiculous when the same forces who are helping in one part of the world, are assisting in the theft of natural resources by killing and bombing the crap out of innocent people in another part of the world.

So, what is the real face of the power that ultimately controls the US/UK military?

This is so full of bull**** it almost doesn't deserve a response. I wasn't ordered to do anything. They came up with the tasking and said we can afford to send xxxx many people. Ask your families what they think and let us know if you WISH to go. I raised my hand. Deployments like that are almost always by volunteer basis.

The military provided a means for resources. What you think I have a few hundred tons of rice and medical supplies just laying in my storage room? They gave us a means to do something we WANTED to do. But you know what? WTF if it was an order? It would have been a good one cuz people needed help and if that's what it would have taken then all in.

You have no f'n clue what your spouting off about. And frankly as far as the middle east, until your ass has been over there and seen it first hand, you can respectfully STFU. You just don't know.

We kill for oil? They kill for religion? WTF ever, everyone is killing and no one has a good reason to do so. But so long as people want to put one between your eyes or cut off your head or blow you up while you're having breakfast with your kid, you have to defend yourself one way or the other. I find it funny people are so shocked countries fight for resources anyways. Growing populous with dwindling means to sustain it. Every creature on the planet does the exact same thing. Just more proof we all come from monkeys...

[uki]

Just more proof we all come from monkeys...HAHAHAHAHOHOHOHOHHEHEHEHEHEHE!!!! *gasp* LOL *cough* now that just made my day - thanks soco. :p

[Dragonzbane76]

This is so full of bull**** it almost doesn't deserve a response. I wasn't ordered to do anything. They came up with the tasking and said we can afford to send xxxx many people. Ask your families what they think and let us know if you WISH to go. I raised my hand. Deployments like that are almost always by volunteer basis.

The military provided a means for resources. What you think I have a few hundred tons of rice and medical supplies just laying in my storage room? They gave us a means to do something we WANTED to do. But you know what? WTF if it was an order? It would have been a good one cuz people needed help and if that's what it would have taken then all in.

You have no f'n clue what your spouting off about. And frankly as far as the middle east, until your ass has been over there and seen it first hand, you can respectfully STFU. You just don't know.

We kill for oil? They kill for religion? WTF ever, everyone is killing and no one has a good reason to do so. But so long as people want to put one between your eyes or cut off your head or blow you up while you're having breakfast with your kid, you have to defend yourself one way or the other. I find it funny people are so shocked countries fight for resources anyways. Growing populous with dwindling means to sustain it. Every creature on the planet does the exact same thing. Just more proof we all come from monkeys...

we need more people like you good sir. HW8 is just a douchbag plain and simple. He thinks everything is a conspiracy and that the U.S. corporations are behind it all. Keep up the good work.