Anyone heard of Vikoga wing chun?

[Eric_H]

Hello,

Recently it came to my attention the system called "Vikoga" wing chun. I found some information on it here: http://www.accsoft.com.au/~cheng/pages/intro.htm
(http://www.accsoft.com.au/~cheng/pages/intro.htm)

Looking at the webpage they state:



How does VIKOGA work?

VIKOGA works by defining unambiguously the qualities and the workings of the cultivated individual and how best to achieve success in this cultivation.
It employs the latest cutting-edge mindset and paradigms to ensure that it is a thoroughly contemporary technology, yet it retains the utmost - and inmost - practicable Internal Arts knowledge as a basis to tap into our fullest potentials.

VIKOGA regards human beings as a triadic biologic entity having a Conciousness, a Mind and a Body. Consummate cultivation works on the 3 in varying degrees, at varying levels. VIKOGA identifies the Internal Arts pathway as the most potent program to achieve this cultivation of the self. Hence, the defining work is training in the Internal Arts.

Some Core Cardinal Characteristics of VIKOGA

* The generation of a 3-dimensional force-field.
* This force-field consists of vector forces.
* These vector forces are convergent in nature.
* The resultant force is the vanguard force.
* The mindwill or intent mobilises, leads and controls these forces.
* The physical movements reflect this force-field.
* The use of this force-field is in covering ourselves and invading the enemies space.
* The main shapes of the force-field are the cone, the sphere and the geocubicone.
* The physical movements are also for generating and working with this force-field.



Never before in the martial arts have i heard of "generating force fields" as something to achieve, does that require a flux capacitor? :D

[chusauli]

I have heard of it.

Basically, it is the teachings of Victor Leow, a student of both WSL and Tsui Sheung Tien. Victor also has studied Tai Ji and Ba Gua and other arts.

He is quite knowledgeable.

And he is quite skilled at packaging and making acronyms. :)

[CFT]

Sounds seriously wacky. Like a Trancendental Meditator tripping in acid and a geometry textbook.

Have you seen the lineage diagram (http://www.accsoft.com.au/~cheng/pages/lineage.htm)? All roads lead to Victor Leow!

According to the diagram he has had some dealings with David Peterson. Would would interesting to hear what David has to say.


And he is quite skilled at packaging and making acronyms. It's that which is off-putting (for me at least).

[Eric_H]

Hey CFT,

I didn't see that diagram before: http://www.accsoft.com.au/~cheng/pages/lineage.htm

With that many teachers it makes me wonder if he spent much time with them or just kind of floated around. Maybe went to a seminar or two with each one, claims them as a teacher and went on to the next one.

[duende]

Force fields are over-rated IMO... WonderTwin powers always seem to be able to penetrate them! :D

[Ultimatewingchun]

Hey CFT,

I didn't see that diagram before: http://www.accsoft.com.au/~cheng/pages/lineage.htm

With that many teachers it makes me wonder if he spent much time with them or just kind of floated around. Maybe went to a seminar or two with each one, claims them as a teacher and went on to the next one.

***I'VE SEEN this kind of thing before. There are people I know (or know of) who've spent a ridiculously short amount of time training with one or the other of my two wing chun instructors (Moy Yat & William Cheung)...

and they include Moy Yat and/or William Cheung on their "resume" of wing chun experience when asked; or worse yet, on their bios when you go to their website.

It's a joke.

[goju]

i stopped reading at force fields:rolleyes::D

[chusauli]

Kidding about branding aside, his information shows that he is quite analytical and knowledgeable.

David Petersen mentioned he knew him and I had a few correspondences with him. He taught my co-author, Y. Wu.

[anerlich]

the geocubicone

WTF?

I googled it and the only references are the vikoga site or posts from other poor b@st@rds wondering what it is.

It sounds like a good name to give to the next BJJ sweep to be invented.

[duende]

The main underlying principles and concepts involved in this philosophy include -
* The Universal First Motive Force - known as Qi (also spelled as Ch'i).
* The Yin-Yang Model - the First Universal Bipolar Paradox.
* The Pentaphasic Homeostasis Model - the 5-Transformative Universal Principle.
* The Pakua System - the Octal-Hexagrammatic Table of Concordance in All Changes.
* The Celestial Stems & Terrestrial Branches System of Correspondence.
* Classical Systems of Strategy.
* Traditional Chinese Medical System.
* Ancient Practical Cosmic Worldview and Applications.
* Practical Ancient & Contemporary Philosophies.
* Aspects of Fuzzy Logic, Theory of Chaos & Complexity, Bio-electromagnetism,
Scientific Finer Forces, Total Quality Management, to name a few.


Wow...

[Eric_H]

Maybe that's the problem, my logic isn't fuzzy enough to understand WTF this guy is talking about. :eek:

[LSWCTN1]

David Petersen mentioned he knew him

i should hope so! he's listed as one of his teachers!

[Sardinkahnikov]

The main underlying principles and concepts involved in this philosophy include -
* The Universal First Motive Force - known as Qi (also spelled as Ch'i).
* The Yin-Yang Model - the First Universal Bipolar Paradox.
* The Pentaphasic Homeostasis Model - the 5-Transformative Universal Principle.
* The Pakua System - the Octal-Hexagrammatic Table of Concordance in All Changes.
* The Celestial Stems & Terrestrial Branches System of Correspondence.
* Classical Systems of Strategy.
* Traditional Chinese Medical System.
* Ancient Practical Cosmic Worldview and Applications.
* Practical Ancient & Contemporary Philosophies.
* Aspects of Fuzzy Logic, Theory of Chaos & Complexity, Bio-electromagnetism,
Scientific Finer Forces, Total Quality Management, to name a few.


Wow...

"Uhm, but sifu, how do I block a punch to the face?"

Heh, just joking.
I've heard about more complex geometric models in Wing Chun theory, but never to the extent of that list. The only thing that it is missing is a reference to quantum mechanichs :p

[CFT]

The Pentaphasic Homeostasis Model - the 5-Transformative Universal Principle.Which is just Ng-Hang, the 5 elements.


The Pakua System - the Octal-Hexagrammatic Table of Concordance in All Changes.Why doesn't he just stick with "Bagua" instead of going all pseudo-scientific?


The Celestial Stems & Terrestrial Branches System of Correspondence.Tiangan, dizhi. Classical Chinese numerology, time keeping, zodiac.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earthly_Branches
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celestial_stem


As to the rest? Is it really necessary?

[chusauli]

Branding, just branding.

Although there is a lot of relevance to the original Chinese concepts that have a lot of use.

[sanjuro_ronin]

It's just names people, branding like Robert says.
Even the Dog Brothers do it with their "dracula","zirconia", "interfaces" and a few other "propriety linguistics".

[goju]

It's just names people, branding like Robert says.
Even the Dog Brothers do it with their "dracula","zirconia", "interfaces" and a few other "propriety linguistics".

of course it is but stuff like that is silly and poitnless no matter whos doing it.:rolleyes:

[bennyvt]

As far as I was told he went to a few WSL seminars. I got told from a guy that actually taught him (from jim fung's school) he was ****ed as he was the only person who wasn't on the list. He is on a wsl video at jim fung's and wsl keeps on having a go at him for his crappy translations, eventually jim has to try then they get Barry and his wife wendy (Wsl's sister)

[Hendrik]

I like this piece of music

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtBJFFrFuoU&feature=related

because
the beginning sounds baroque, then it later sounded like Mozart, after that, you hear some Bolcom, and finally, you get something... Chopin-ish or Alkan-ish?


I hope somedays there are those who could compose and evolve WCK similar to create the above music.

One certainly needs deep insight to do those fusion and evolution....etc , just hope that some good piece of art will come.

[sanjuro_ronin]

of course it is but stuff like that is silly and poitnless no matter whos doing it.:rolleyes:

Well, you gotta name the stuff !
You can use a chinese name to sound more legit for some people or use whatever term you find amusing or that in your view, best describes it.
It's no more silly than a "Phoenix-eye fist" or "eagle claw".

[CFT]

Well, you gotta name the stuff !
You can use a chinese name to sound more legit for some people or use whatever term you find amusing or that in your view, best describes it.
It's no more silly than a "Phoenix-eye fist" or "eagle claw".Yeah, but:


The Pentaphasic Homeostasis Model
The Octal-Hexagrammatic Table of ConcordanceSounds like something out of Harry Potter!

[Frost]

Yeah, but:

Sounds like something out of Harry Potter!

yep giving names to specific movements can help students remember positions, eddie bravo does this (crackhead control, twister etc) but using silly sounding phrases to make youself and your style sound special is just silly:eek:

[sanjuro_ronin]

It old news guys, examples:
Autokinematic response
Matrix paradigms
Mental and Physical interphase
VISUALIZATION !
LOL !

[chusauli]

We see it all around us. Its human nature to make yourself feel special.

Don't tear vikoga apart just because he does stuff that all of us do in a way. Why buy a certain name brand?

Coca Cola much better than Pepsi (personally I prefer RC :)) or store bought cola? Anyway, these days its better to buy "organic".

Labels abound, look at TWC, WSL, Chu Shang tin, Lee Shing, and others, including myself. We all do it.

Maybe vikoga is doing it to the extreme or blatantly...but not much different than anyone else.

[Ultimatewingchun]

...A prize for who amoungst us can up with a brand new name for a new :rolleyes: wing chun style. A super name that all of us wished we had thought of first.

Or perhaps three winners if we get a lot of responses: Gold, Silver, Bronze.

But listen, don't just give a name, also give a sentence or two as to what is it about this new style of wing chun that merits this name! :cool:

[CFT]

Labels should help the learning process, not hinder it. OK, I agree that the original Chinese terms might be just as bad but that is the legacy; why replace one "confusing" term with another.

[chusauli]

Victor, we don't need to make up anything - true life is stranger than fiction! LOL!

I still think T's Red and Black Checkered Flag WCK was the real deal!

[Ultimatewingchun]

D a m n, Robert...you've ruined my contest. I really thought I'd be getting the GOLD.

I was gonna go with "ULTIMATE WING CHUN"...

5hit !!!:(


:D :D :D

[TenTigers]

I teach some students with various forms of autism, many quite high on the intellectual scale-borderline genius. They speak like that.
They also attend Star Trek conventions....

[Hendrik]

My view on a new start-up are that most doesnt get enough depth, similar to make tea with cold water instead of cooking with hot water That is sad because they didnt realized their ideas and innovation.

If they go one step deeper or further, then lots of things changes. one can really smell the tea.



For example, we all talk about Fajin....etc and Structure....ect. and look around, after a decade or so of talking fajin and structure, everyone knows the term, and they incoorporate the term into their art as they think; but how many really know the "it"? not to mention, how many has travelled deeper than what was talked about decades ago?

I found most people stay at the rooting, the dan dien, the ... level. Those are not it, it cant be and it needs to go deeper to really know what is going on.

if that has been a deeper development, then lots of things will not be the same today. IE not that easy to get take down....etc.


So, that is how all these pop understanding and terms goes. like a pop song everyone sings and then forget years later without even know what it is eventhough one remember the name of the song.

[goju]

Well, you gotta name the stuff !
You can use a chinese name to sound more legit for some people or use whatever term you find amusing or that in your view, best describes it.
It's no more silly than a "Phoenix-eye fist" or "eagle claw".

well thats just it call a punch and a punch GOD D AMN IT!! lol

stuff like this just comes off to dungeons and dragons for me i like the no nonsense approach you know for those of us who dont want to be jedis :D

[LSWCTN1]

...A prize for who amoungst us can up with a brand new name for a new :rolleyes: wing chun style. A super name that all of us wished we had thought of first.

Or perhaps three winners if we get a lot of responses: Gold, Silver, Bronze.

But listen, don't just give a name, also give a sentence or two as to what is it about this new style of wing chun that merits this name! :cool:

i have seen somewhere that it used to be known as 'Coming Home Boxing' or somesuch similar

[Eric_H]

The terms you use to describe something should be simple, direct and to the point. Anything else just ain't wing chun.

If you sound like you're full of nonsense and mumbo jumbo, common logic dictates that you probably are. Just look at Hendrik ;)

[Hendrik]

The terms you use to describe something should be simple, direct and to the point. Anything else just ain't wing chun.

If you sound like you're full of nonsense and mumbo jumbo, common logic dictates that you probably are. Just look at Hendrik ;)



The reason there is partial differential equations is because the basic math cant describe what is going on.

However, that is very different then coin some term just to make it different for marketing purpose.



And,

Basic math common logic doesnt work well in partial differential equation because expanding of the logic is needed.


As for Wck, if one stuck with the so called simple and common sense, one will not be able to do short jin, that is forsure. If one stuck with the common believe of rooting then one cant get to the advance dynamic power generation level. That too is forsure.

[Eric_H]

Hendrik,

If you want to keep adding special short micro jing to your WCK, you go right ahead. Perhaps you too can come up with a cool name for it like "Super dynamic sub space ultimate almightyness pop song micro short jing." Good luck with that, let us know how it turns out.

Back to the topic, so RC has stated that Vikoga is a mix of different WC along with Tai Ji and Bagua. I think that's kind of interesting being that the Bagua body is pretty much a 180 turn from WC. Having previously trained both Yip Man line WC and different styles of Bagua, I feel that they are pretty incompatible.

I wonder, what was missing with Vikoga wing chun that they had to add Tai Ji and Bagua to fill in the holes? Do those pieces even work together?

[goju]

isnt there a buddha hand wc style that has bagua in it as well?

[Eric_H]

Goju, if you're referring to fut sao wing chun, they have a form called Siu Baat Gwa, but is not related to Baguazhang the Dong Haichuan art.

[Hendrik]

Hendrik,

If you want to keep adding special short micro jing to your WCK, you go right ahead. Perhaps you too can come up with a cool name for it like "Super dynamic sub space ultimate almightyness pop song micro short jing." Good luck with that, let us know how it turns out.

Back to the topic, so RC has stated that Vikoga is a mix of different WC along with Tai Ji and Bagua. I think that's kind of interesting being that the Bagua body is pretty much a 180 turn from WC. Having previously trained both Yip Man line WC and different styles of Bagua, I feel that they are pretty incompatible.

I wonder, what was missing with Vikoga wing chun that they had to add Tai Ji and Bagua to fill in the holes? Do those pieces even work together?



I dont know your wingchun.

For me, from the Yik Kam lineage,

Chuin Cheong is Chuin Cheong be it Bagua or Siu Lin Tau.
Hua ken is Hua Jin be it Taiji or Wing Chun.


It is a matter of how deep one goes to know what is behind the label.
It is a matter of not shoot down others dream when one no longer dare to dream the sweat dream. or even lost and confused.


All the styles, if they are a complete one, are just different gates lead to the center of the stadium. Some doest go far enough to enter the stadium thus they dont know. some got trap in front of the gate thinking they have reached the ultimate. Some got trap between gates trying to mix two or three gates thinking that is the ultimate.


As for the short micro jin, in a direct and straight forward way, if one dont know, one dont know WCK by 1850 standard.


Certainly, it is a fantasy if one trying to mix three gates without knowing it is not the gate but the enter deep into the stadium lead one to the ultimate.

[CFT]

Back to the topic, so RC has stated that Vikoga is a mix of different WC along with Tai Ji and Bagua. I think that's kind of interesting being that the Bagua body is pretty much a 180 turn from WC. Having previously trained both Yip Man line WC and different styles of Bagua, I feel that they are pretty incompatible.

I wonder, what was missing with Vikoga wing chun that they had to add Tai Ji and Bagua to fill in the holes? Do those pieces even work together?No, if you look at their website Vikoga is a series of concepts that can be expressed with Wing Chun, Taiji, Bagua, etc. Not a mix.

[jooerduo]

they have a small following which included a couple of no holds barred fighters who valued their teachings enough to drive over 300kms each way to take lessons.

some of their senior members regularly throw their training partners across the room when practicing fa jins and stuff

the descriptive terms that they use, you can probably do it too if you understand the concepts and follow their methods but its probably easier to mock instead. its can be hard to learn new stuff if you are set in your ways so a lot of beginners fail to grasp the teachings

wing chun, bagua, tai chi, xingyi, they are all pretty much very similar in their internal mechanics and thought processes- just differing in flavours and can be simple stuff once someone tells you the formula

the guy has discipleship under some prominent internal arts teachers including one in kulo wing chun so I think he knows what he is talking about

those who mock are most likely the clueless ones. if you are curious then just visit them and ask why they do what they do, thats the road worth travelling and can do wonders for your own knowledge

[Eric_H]

they have a small following which included a couple of no holds barred fighters who valued their teachings enough to drive over 300kms each way to take lessons.


Ok, so who are they and where are the results of their VIKOGA training?



some of their senior members regularly throw their training partners across the room when practicing fa jins and stuff


Same thing back when i did Moy Yat WC. Fa Jing is nothing special, every chinese martial art pretty much has it.



the descriptive terms that they use, you can probably do it too if you understand the concepts and follow their methods but its probably easier to mock instead. its can be hard to learn new stuff if you are set in your ways so a lot of beginners fail to grasp the teachings


Ah, i see, because their terms are ridiculous I clearly don't understand.



wing chun, bagua, tai chi, xingyi, they are all pretty much very similar in their internal mechanics and thought processes- just differing in flavours and can be simple stuff once someone tells you the formula


Bagua, Tai Ji and Xingyi are all closely related, no doubt. Wing Chun is not though. As I said above, the body expression is totally different and the source is totally different.



the guy has discipleship under some prominent internal arts teachers including one in kulo wing chun so I think he knows what he is talking about


Discipleship doesn't mean jack unless you put in the time, I see guys claiming to be disciples of this and that all the time. Who are these "prominent internal arts teachers?" I don't see them listed in his chart.



those who mock are most likely the clueless ones. if you are curious then just visit them and ask why they do what they do, thats the road worth travelling and can do wonders for your own knowledge


No qualms about going the distance to meet someone who is worth it, but it's up to them to prove that they are worth it. Starting out with a bunch of nonsensical terms and a lineage chart that basically lists everyone under the sun in the Yip Man family isn't really a great place to start.

[CFT]

2003 is calling and wants its thread back ... http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27145

[Hendrik]

Same thing back when i did Moy Yat WC. Fa Jing is nothing special, every chinese martial art pretty much has it.



what is Fajing? what is the result and how to do it?






Bagua, Tai Ji and Xingyi are all closely related, no doubt. Wing Chun is not though. As I said above, the body expression is totally different and the source is totally different.


That depend on who's WCK.

Bagua, Taiji, and Xingyi are totally not related in a begineer's eyes either.

[imperialtaichi]

I know the Vikoga guys very well. In my opinion they have very good methods and techniques.

The principle does like to talk "jargon"; it is more a bad habit than anything else. He would go as far as calling a speed hump a "velocity deterrence device" ;)

He definitely has a kung fu obsession; and he had been doing it for many years and he had many top notch teachers; he is indoor disciple of Beijing Wei Shuren (of Yang Tai Chi), Tian Keyan (Yin Yang Bagua Zhang) and Kulo Wing Chun Leung Wun Zi, of which many of you know Master Wei and Master Leung are both my teachers as well. He also has instructor certificate issued and signed by late Grandmaster Wong Seung Leung. He is also a good friend of Hong Kong Practical Wing Chun Wan Kam Leung, and Master Wan and him address each other as Sihing and Sidai.

In my opinion, all fighting arts share common threads, with different emphasis. After all, we all have four limbs and a head, we are all the same physiologically.

By all means, knock him on his choice of words and names (I do it at his face all the time); but one should not judge further without knowing more about the training and methods.

Cheers,
John

[CFT]

By all means, knock him on his choice of words and names (I do it at his face all the time)I think that is all we've been doing.

But good to get another independent view regarding the training methods.

[chusauli]

The principle does like to talk "jargon"; it is more a bad habit than anything else. He would go as far as calling a speed hump a "velocity deterrence device" ;)



John,

I know of Victor mostly second hand through co-author Y. Wu.

I think the statement above is hilarious and shows he is not a low brow Neaderthal.