The Finer Points...

[YungChun]

Of how to cheat, chase hands and otherwise, do whatever it takes to "win" or if you have to, even stalemate in ChiSao...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVRaSTzUFBE

The only downside being that you are virtually tossing out any useful aspects of the drill..

Talk about the blind leading....

What a load.:mad:

Kevin would you mind ripping this to pieces please.. Thx. :)

[k gledhill]

no elbow idea at all. patty cake. sad really.

[YungChun]

no elbow idea at all. patty cake. sad really.

True... And essentially the entire core focus of the drill is gone.. As a result, all those mesmerized students diligently trying to duplicate that crap, may later wonder why it doesn't translate into functional application, if they try to use it...

Why doesn't ChiSao translate into functional elements? Because some can only can see the drill as a game to win and not the purpose of the drill. Then they invent all kinds of ways to win at a game that has nothing to do with VT..

This guy honestly can't even do ChiSao very well and so appears to like to force stale, useless positions to keep the younger ones confused..

[Tom Kagan]

Jim, please post a url to a video of your ChiSao in a comparable situation so I and others can make a full critique. :/

[Liddel]

no elbow idea at all. patty cake. sad really.

Pretty dissaponting really.

No elbow idea is just the start, even with elbow techs/behaviour firmly grasped and made into an actual applicable skill, if you dont combine it with the horse then :o
Terrible force against force in parts and lack of horse see him leaning into his partner to literally stuff him. Good against a compliant partner in a demo :(

I see an inability to utilise Foook Sau as a big problem out there in the VT world, many just do what is seen here and push and also grab using the palm as a touch point and the fingers as leverage for control.
This then makes it extremely difficult to use the ideas and tech taught in Dan Chi Sau.

Ive seen Kwok look much better and smoother in application,(only in net videos though) not sure why hes different here but i never did like stop start demos from anyone anyway.

Amazed at the poor horse, must have been a tired day - i give him the benefit of the doubt :rolleyes:


Jim, please post a url to a video of your ChiSao in a comparable situation so I and others can make a full critique. :/

Come on Tom, anyone would be a fool if they thought they could post vids for all to see and not expect critics to surface.

[YungChun]

Pretty disappointing really.

No elbow idea is just the start, even with elbow techs/behaviour firmly grasped and made into an actual applicable skill, if you dont combine it with the horse then :o
Terrible force against force in parts and lack of horse see him leaning into his partner to literally stuff him. Good against a compliant partner in a demo :(

I see an inability to utilise Foook Sau as a big problem out there in the VT world, many just do what is seen here and push and also grab using the palm as a touch point and the fingers as leverage for control.
This then makes it extremely difficult to use the ideas and tech taught in Dan Chi Sau.


Good points..



Come on Tom, anyone would be a fool if they thought they could post vids for all to see and not expect critics to surface.

Yeah, how dare I?... LOL

TFB

Putting stuff out there is one thing.. I will eventually post some stuff--means nothing..

There's a big difference in putting stuff out there and calling yourself a "grand master"... These types must be debunked..trying to $ell this 'stuff' as 'advanced' anything is simply wrong--I mean really.

Anyone, who says these "GMs" shouldn't be called on this stuff, okay, let's hear why not..

[k gledhill]

It should make us ask , "what is chi-sao for ?" maybe it would be easier to ask what its not for ....

think of the SLT form, the elbows tightly held inwards to develop a technique for striking.

then why have hands feeling like they are in the vid posted with elbows pulled backwards besides their bodies out and wide etc...? answer they arent meant to. They should be developing an idea from the form, not some abstract hand game for kicks.

The chi-sao drills are intense enough on their own , without inventing hand patty cake :D

[SAAMAG]

Chi sao is merely one drill in a grander scale of training. What he's doing there isn't promoting the skill that it's meant to promote.

At the same time though...have you ever touched hands with Kwok? Have you ever touched hands with any of Kwok's students? Trashing a vid because of its "relaxed" state of goings-on isn't the same as feeling a person's skill and then critiquing it based on the feel of it.

You also don't know the context of what he's showing, or the intent of what he was illustrating to them. Perhaps he was showing them something that was "incorrect"?? (I don't believe that was the case but the point is we really don't know unless we were there).

Just remember that critiquing is one thing, talking **** is another.

[LoneTiger108]

Just remember that critiquing is one thing, talking **** is another.

One of the best one-liners I've seen this year! :D

[Tom Kagan]

There's a big difference in putting stuff out there and calling yourself a "grand master"... These types must be debunked..trying to $ell this 'stuff' as 'advanced' anything is simply wrong--I mean really.

Anyone, who says these "GMs" shouldn't be called on this stuff, okay, let's hear why not..

When you make the kind of statements which you in essence did: "That's not the real __ng __un!", the onus is on you to then show what is. Prove his 'stuff' doesn't, as you put it, "translate into functional application, if they try to use it" or that your method to achieve similar results translates much better. The dearth of independently verifiable proof of the 'cause and effect' of the given methods is what means nothing, not whether any of us finally have the stones to put up a video. Without that proof, then yes, as the distinction Vankuen made, you're just talking smack. You failed to call him on anything.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Sure, there a bunch of things on that vid that can easily be criticized, but remember this:
Carlson Gracie (RIP) thought enough of Samuel Kwok's wing chun to once do a joint WC/BJJ seminar with him.

And Carlson's student, Vitor Belfort, coincidentally? enough once put a 6 second knockout devastation on no less than Wanderlai Silva with a barrage of straight blast forward attack punches that was the closest thing I've ever seen in professional mma to wing chun - even if his punches were being thrown horizontally and not vertically.

[k gledhill]

Ive met Sam several times and done chi-sao with him...in London. Its preety bad regardless ...nobody to correct you when your a GRAND MASTER ; ) except master of almightyness maybe ? I could be wrong.

[Liddel]

Vic with respect, thats clutching at straws is it not?
Belforts win at ultimate brazil(?) is one of my favorite KOs but is hardly an example of VT, perhaps our straight line strategy at best....

But if we can say that about what we see of Vitor in a video clip, then whos to say anyone cant comment on what we see in the Kwok Clip ?


Carlson Gracie (RIP) thought enough of Samuel Kwok's wing chun to once do a joint WC/BJJ seminar with him.

Thats why i personally had written 'he must have had a bad day' because with your quote above in mind... i expect more from a video featuring him :o

Rather than us all having a disagreement about this one off example, what are peoples opinion of his horse behaviour, the disconnect i see between hands and feet, loss of elbow stuffing actions and grabbing control rather than Formal Fook Sau use.... Lets focus on the VT not the man...

Am i off base with my comments, thoughts opinions anyone ? (about the VT)

DREW

[Ultimatewingchun]

I understand the Belfort/wing chun thing is a bit a stretch, but I've always suspected that Carlson saw what he saw from guys like Kwok and had his trainers work it out on their own - the result being Belfort's own version of a chain punch attack. Could be wrong about that, I suppose, but that's what I personally think about the Kwok/Gracie joint seminar affair.

And yeah, I'm not impressed with Kwok's vids (and I've seen a number of them)...but hey, we've all done some real questionable chi sao and wing chun whatnot from time-to-time, haven't we?

As for the "grandmaster" titles (or even the "master" titles) within wing chun - yes, they're waaay over done. I agree.

[k gledhill]

I wasnt impressed with him, no elbow use lots of wild slapping shots ...wide open, first thing I did was simply step in and palm him in the chest...no answer . Felt like he was into ego maintenance more than anything else. ergo if you hit him in chi-sao he would try to retaliate with a wild slap to try to hit you anyway he could for his 'entourage ' to see :D no idea about why he got hit if you follow me..

[Ultimatewingchun]

I wasnt impressed with him, no elbow use lots of wild slapping shots ...wide open. Felt like he was into ego maintenance more than anything else. ergo if you hit him in chi-sao he would try to retaliate with a wild slap to try to hit you anyway he could for his 'entourage ' to see :D

***I'VE SEEN this kind of thing you describe before, so I don't doubt what you say. But it's indicative of a whole "protect the ricebowl" mentality that goes waaay beyond Samuel Kwok.

And the only answer, imo, are wing chun full contact sparring tournaments that become more-and-more invitational to other styles as times passes.

Using chi sao as a measuring rod of one's wing chun skills is a joke, imo. It's nothing more than a drill that can sometimes get a bit competitve; but in the end, that's all it is: a drill.

SPARRING/FIGHTING is the measuring rod - everything else is bull5hit.

[YungChun]

When you make the kind of statements which you in essence did: "That's not the real __ng __un!", the onus is on you to then show what is. Prove his 'stuff' doesn't, as you put it, "translate into functional application, if they try to use it" or that your method to achieve similar results translates much better. The dearth of independently verifiable proof of the 'cause and effect' of the given methods is what means nothing, not whether any of us finally have the stones to put up a video. Without that proof, then yes, as the distinction Vankuen made, you're just talking smack. You failed to call him on anything.

All due respect I think that's a crock.. He was called on numerous things... It's not my job to meet some criteria you establish... I simply state my opinion, make a case/statement and open a discussion..for purposes of discussing.. Hey there's an idea, discuss the subject... you think it has merit? Make a case.

Perhaps more examples of what one could do right vs do wrong..however, several things were cited.. The list is too long to cite it all.. Anyone with any decent experience in VT can and did see so much wrong there, it needs to be addressed.. You think it should be left alone? You think anyone should be able to sell anything as "advanced VT"? Or is it something else?

More folks should be addressing this stuff not less.. I am not obligated to do anything other than state my opinion... My opinion on this is that it does not represent good VT training, for many of the reasons expressed here and more; that it does not translate to fighting because of those reasons and beyond that is useless except perhaps to pad someone's ego and pockets.. Is that talking smack? I say no, you can say whatever you like.

The point is that VT is a simple idea of taking, clearing, using the line, etc to release power and force to do damage--not chase hands, not use force on force, not to stalemate, not play silly games that have no connection to the aforementioned VT idea, use of the line and so on...

There are a lot of VT techniques, attributes that may or may not have a place in VT fighting, IMO none of that does.. Core VT elements were missing and what was present (also seen when he does ChiSao with his Sifu) was not good ChiSao, yet cited as "advanced" but does not relate to the idea of VT in fighting because it doesn't use any core VT elements, tools, tactics, mechanics correctly.. It simply attempts to circumvent the entire core tactic set of the art by using ChiSao as a game unto itself. We see BS stalemating, poor use of tools and no VT tactics.. What's left attempts to fill this void by taking advantage of the limits of the drill and students' pocketbooks...

What's wrong with VT??? This kind of training and those who would rather let it go than address it...

[YungChun]

SPARRING/FIGHTING is the measuring rod - everything else is bull5hit.

Disagree..although T might agree.. We can see all kinds of things there that are problematic.. They won't get BETTER with more pressure, more realism..in fact the opposite..we know is true..

VT training done correctly may well have benefits.. VT training done incorrectly/badly almost certainly does not.

[Liddel]

Using chi sao as a measuring rod of one's wing chun skills is a joke, imo. It's nothing more than a drill that can sometimes get a bit competitve; but in the end, that's all it is: a drill.

SPARRING/FIGHTING is the measuring rod - everything else is bull5hit.

I get where your comming from, especially with Dan Chi and Phoon sau, but i will say that if i watch someone doing Gor Sau or Lux i can get a really good idea on how his/her sparring and fighting is going to be...

Take Kwoks opponent, he has a real prob dealing with some of the forces given to him here and i dont see as many VT tools coming out from him that kwok shows. No kwan sau to deal with trapped hands no karp juarn to free his stuffed hands against his body or even guarn sau, pak sau....nope.

All he has as habbit actions are tan and bong and his legs are disconnected from his hands.. That gives me a good idea what Chun will or wont come out in sparring.

I dont mean to sound argumentitive Vic, i value your opinion but if i agreed whole heartedly with your call id be inclined to drop Chi Sau all together and just spar.
:p

If one cant bring out VT tools in an isolated setting like Gor Sau Lux Sau etc then chances are in a higher intensity platform like sparring your going to have more trouble.

I filmed David Tua hitting focus mitts before his heavyweight bout against Lennox Lewis and predicted from that the outcome, lucky guess and a bit of intuition but it made me 20 bucks LOL

[Lee Chiang Po]

If you are going to prove a skill by actually fighting, you should do it right. None of this panty waisted rules and gloves . No holds barred, outright fighting. No matter the style or system a person trains, just 2 people step into the ring and fight. No rounds, no rules, no referee. Just make sure neither one has a weapon other than their hands or feet and turn them loose. You see what happened with the tournement in NYC. It turns into a MMA bout. That's what rules and gloves and a referee do.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Of course I believe chi sao training for a wing chun fighter is important - and especially for the very close quarter limb-to-limb contact reflexes and unbalancing that goes along with wing chun close infight striking...use of the centerline from close quarters, angling and cutting from close quarters, etc...

but my point about the limits of "competitive" chi sao is that it does not take into account all ranges - and the kinds of attacks and defenses you might see from other-than-wing chun fighters...

and therefore the ultimate measuring rod for ALL of the ranges is all out sparring.

Chi sao and even gor sao (because it's only against another wing chun fighter) have waaay more limitations than all out sparring against people that do anything - not just wing chun.

[duende]

When you make the kind of statements which you in essence did: "That's not the real __ng __un!", the onus is on you to then show what is. Prove his 'stuff' doesn't, as you put it, "translate into functional application, if they try to use it" or that your method to achieve similar results translates much better. The dearth of independently verifiable proof of the 'cause and effect' of the given methods is what means nothing, not whether any of us finally have the stones to put up a video. Without that proof, then yes, as the distinction Vankuen made, you're just talking smack. You failed to call him on anything.

Tom,

Totally hear ya about talking smack etc..

But we don't need to put up proof about what is wrong with this video. Heck... Wing Chun aside... There are tons of fighting videos that demonstrate how vulnerable one is when they let themselves get stretched out like that. And numerous videos that demonstrate what happens when you collapse your guard like that too.

Chi Sau is for fighting no. 1. And if you can't see any real world application of it, then you are wandering.

Don't even get me started on the hand grabbing. ;)

[HumbleWCGuy]

Of how to cheat, chase hands and otherwise, do whatever it takes to "win" or if you have to, even stalemate in ChiSao...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVRaSTzUFBE

The only downside being that you are virtually tossing out any useful aspects of the drill..

Talk about the blind leading....

What a load.:mad:

Kevin would you mind ripping this to pieces please.. Thx. :)

To me this is pretty well representative of every chi sao demonstration. The person who adheres to rules of good fighting and agreed chi sao standards always looses. The senior WC practitioner sets the parameters for the junior practioner and proceeds to break the "rules." Chi sao in general is a waste anyway.

Edit:
By at least some standard, the very exercise of Chi Sao is chasing hands. If standing square with an opponent with your guard drop below your your shoulders for extended periods of time isn't representative of hand-chasing I don't know what is. At some point hard blocks and covers become more economical. Therefore, I submit that Chi Sao is hand chasing 101.

[t_niehoff]

An interesting thread . . . ranging from how my pretend fighting is better than his pretend fighting to how there is a "right" way to pretend fight to how pretend fighting is actually superior to really fighting in developing fighting skills. Amazing. Simply amazing. It's almost as good as hearing creationists talk about how the planet is really only 6000 years old, and then arguing over the details!

[SAAMAG]

An interesting thread . . . ranging from how my skill in performing this drill is better than his skill in performing the drill to how there is a "right" way to do the drill to how this drill is good for obtaining desired attributes in developing fighting skills. Amazing. Simply amazing. If only I practiced wing chun to the degree that I could make mine work, then I'd be able to contribute something other than the same one-liner mantra for 8 years straight!

I fixed it for you.

[YungChun]

An interesting thread . . . ranging from how my skill in performing this drill is better than his skill in performing the drill to how there is a "right" way to do the drill to how this drill is good for obtaining desired attributes in developing fighting skills. Amazing. Simply amazing. If only I practiced wing chun to the degree that I could make mine work, then I'd be able to contribute something other than the same one-liner mantra for 8 years straight!

No worries T, I'm sure in another 25 years or so you'll have something worthwhile to contribute...

BTW: I was sure you were remanded to the clinic for at least 6 months.. How did you escape???

[k gledhill]

To me this is pretty well representative of every chi sao demonstration. The person who adheres to rules of good fighting and agreed chi sao standards always looses. The senior WC practitioner sets the parameters for the junior practioner and proceeds to break the "rules." Chi sao in general is a waste anyway.

Edit:
By at least some standard, the very exercise of Chi Sao is chasing hands. If standing square with an opponent with your guard drop below your your shoulders for extended periods of time isn't representative of hand-chasing I don't know what is. At some point hard blocks and covers become more economical. Therefore, I submit that Chi Sao is hand chasing 101.

not. no, nein, mo....

[t_niehoff]

No worries T, I'm sure in another 25 years or so you'll have something worthwhile to contribute...


Maybe I should take up pretend fighting like you guys, and then I can contribute something to the pretend fighting threads.



BTW: I was sure you were remanded to the clinic for at least 6 months.. How did you escape???

No, I think I've got my sex-addiction under control now. ;)

[HumbleWCGuy]

not. no, nein, mo....

Please elaborate.

[Frost]

Sure, there a bunch of things on that vid that can easily be criticized, but remember this:
Carlson Gracie (RIP) thought enough of Samuel Kwok's wing chun to once do a joint WC/BJJ seminar with him.

And Carlson's student, Vitor Belfort, coincidentally? enough once put a 6 second knockout devastation on no less than Wanderlai Silva with a barrage of straight blast forward attack punches that was the closest thing I've ever seen in professional mma to wing chun - even if his punches were being thrown horizontally and not vertically.

Carslon Gracie did not produce any top fighters once the top team left him (mainly over his inability to abopt modern striking and modern training lol)and it was after this he started to look at wing chun so make of that what you may :)

Belfort never did anything close to wing chun, he left before they even started looking at wing chun so yes coincidence, and although i hate it when wing chun guys do this, call someone a wing chun guy or say he is using wing chun skills BJJ has also been guilty of this........ i used to LMAO when BJJ blackbelt Vitor (and carlsons adopted son) used to run into the ring knock someone out with perfect boxing and the brazilians would chat Jujitsu over and over:D

[t_niehoff]

Carslon Gracie did not produce any top fighters once the top team left him (mainly over his inability to abopt modern striking and modern training lol)and it was after this he started to look at wing chun so make of that what you may :)

Belfort never did anything close to wing chun, he left before they even started looking at wing chun so yes coincidence, and although i hate it when wing chun guys do this, call someone a wing chun guy or say he is using wing chun skills BJJ has also been guilty of this........ i used to LMAO when BJJ blackbelt Vitor (and carlsons adopted son) used to run into the ring knock someone out with perfect boxing and the brazilians would chat Jujitsu over and over:D

Calson never "looked into" WCK as Victor alleges and none of his fighters ever trained in WCK.

Belfort was trained in boxing, not WCK.

These are merely attempts to earn credibility through association. Not surprising really -- how else do you expect them to earn credibility? ;)

FWIW, there have been several seminars where the organizers included both BJJ and WCK -- not because the BJJ instructors wanted WCK included, but out of happenstance.

Some time ago there was a story on the mma.tv forum about how after a seminar Carlson Gracie was asked by a WCK instructor (not Kwok) who also taught at the seminar what he thought of WCK, and he replied that he was very impressed with WCK. Gracie's student - who overheard this -- was surprised since Carlson had always poo-poo'ed most martial arts and had maintained that all you need for fighting is a bit of boxing and BJJ, and asked him about it. Carlson's reply was that he was just being kind, and what was he supposed to do, crush the guy's spirit?

[CFT]

I couldn't watch it through to the end. :(

I was going to give him the benefit of the doubt at the beginning, thinking he was just giving the student some "rigid" structure/force to work with. But then it degenerated pretty much into "slapfighting". Lost his balance a few times. Lots of broken moments where he was actively thinking what to do!

[k gledhill]

Please elaborate.


chi-sao serves a specific purpose, hand chasing is not the goal at all. but the clip we see posted is hand chasing .

[YungChun]

I couldn't watch it through to the end. :(

I was going to give him the benefit of the doubt at the beginning, thinking he was just giving the student some "rigid" structure/force to work with. But then it degenerated pretty much into "slapfighting". Lost his balance a few times. Lots of broken moments where he was actively thinking what to do!

Mind blowing isn't it?

Check out similar sessions with his teacher...

[k gledhill]

sam is a slapper !:D his favorite thing

[YungChun]

sam is a slapper !:D his favorite thing

When he went to slap you, you should have dumped him... :)

[k gledhill]

I already had my answer ;) your all seeing the same answer I got, in that clip.