Chi Sao - What do you get?

[sanjuro_ronin]

We chat a lot about chi sao
Understatement, I know.

But what do YOU feel YOU get from chi sao that you can't get from doing anything else?

[Frost]

of course i only did wing chun for a little bit (but i have also done other short hand styles) but i feel i got some sensitivity, close range hitting and learned to cover the center of the body, learned about elbow position etc but i feel i understand all this much better from clinch training and grappling than i ever did from doing these drills. My sensitivity, ability to hit from close range, ability to tie up the opponent and cover the centre of the body i feel were all better trained from the clinch and grappling.

[k gledhill]

read the post i made in the alan gibson thread....

VT is a systematic progression of developing techniques that allow the concepts to work.

we need core ability to have solid punches with balnced mobile attacking and defending ability.

With dan chi sao we develop basic striking skills

with chi-sao we exchange force with each other to develop solid movement under pressure as drills, while striking and attacking with relentless , explosive striking. developing intuitive distance awareness for hitting with force and balanced movement. the distance awareness being a key element and adopting natural angles to arms/legs as they come at us. iow we arent trying to develop sensitivity for its own sake ...thats a by-product of the aforementioned drilling.

by alignment skills in early drilling dan chi-sao, we are made aware of how to taek advantage of simple unaligned force towards us...not to stick to it and feel its intent :D we know that already.



after chi-sao you enter into basic fighting drills how to enter into a guy attacking with the skills and attributes developed earlier....if a mistake appears it can be isolated to a drill.

fighting is the goal. mobility, relentless attacking ability. strong stances that displace by natural strength from training in constant contact with a mutual partner. We dont seek to stabilize opponents by offering ourselves as support like the drill.

we become like a moving mountain with arms like lightning...:D cue the flute !

[sanjuro_ronin]

read the post i made in the alan gibson thread....

VT is a systematic progression of developing techniques that allow the concepts to work.

we need core ability to have solid punches with balnced mobile attacking and defending ability.

With dan chi sao we develop basic striking skills

with chi-sao we exchange force with each other to develop solid movement under pressure as drills, while striking and attacking with relentless , explosive striking. developing intuitive distance awareness for hitting with force and balanced movement. the distance awareness being a key element and adopting natural angles to arms/legs as they come at us. iow we arent trying to develop sensitivity for its own sake ...thats a by-product of the aforementioned drilling.

by alignment skills in early drilling dan chi-sao, we are made aware of how to taek advantage of simple unaligned force towards us...not to stick to it and feel its intent :D we know that already.



after chi-sao you enter into basic fighting drills how to enter into a guy attacking with the skills and attributes developed earlier....if a mistake appears it can be isolated to a drill.

fighting is the goal. mobility, relentless attacking ability. strong stances that displace by natural strength from training in constant contact with a mutual partner. We dont seek to stabilize opponents by offering ourselves as support like the drill.

we become like a moving mountain with arms like lightning...:D cue the flute !

And you can't get that from any other method?

[k gledhill]

Only VT .....who else does elbows like us ?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Only VT .....who else does elbows like us ?

Ok, you said:
fighting is the goal. mobility, relentless attacking ability. strong stances that displace by natural strength from training in constant contact with a mutual partner.

The only method to get : "mobility, relentless attacking ability, strong stances that displace natural strength from constant contact " is chi sao?

Then, how do other systems get those qualities?

[SAAMAG]

The key is that you're getting those things via the wing chun techniques. You can of course get all those things from other systems, but it will be done differently.

I was talking about this with my Sifu the other day. He said that the unbridged skills are probably going to be more utilized for the most part --especially with those of lessor skill. He said the Chi sao skills come into play mostly when you meet someone of the around the same or greater skills.

But when he shows chi sao skills, its got nothing to do with flowery hands or going over prearranged tech 1 , tech 2, etc. Its all about posture, directing to the center, reacting to what's given in a manner that immobilies the other person completely.

What I get out of it...is learning to use the wing chun tools effectively to completely control my opponent. You can learn to control your opponent effectively with good clinch work as well from wrestling, muay thai, and the like--but not in the wing chun sense.

[Vajramusti]

And you can't get that from any other method?
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A common mistake is to regard chi sao as just a drill. The more you learn wing chun, the more you can do with your chi sao in a good Ip Man tradition. In chi sao you can tell how much wing chun a person has developed. Development of control , different kinds of timing,- your self and the other person,different kinds of timing, learning distance, lines, angles, circles, centering, balancing,engaging, disengaging, stepping, locking, unlocking, breaking,cavity work, using different parts of the hand and feet, attacking, blocking,semi grabbing, familiarity with different kinds of power, varying speeds, positioning... all relevant in chi sao.

Wing chun step by step progressive development is a great way to organize all of the above. And there is more to chi sao than just single and double rolling,



Sure you can get some of this in other ways.I see no problem with people doing some other art.But wing chun is my carefully chosen art. To each his own. Wing chun progressive development is a great way to organize all of the above. And there is more to chi sao than just single and double rolling,If someone does not like chi sao- probably best to find some other art.Keep it honest- don't call it wing chun.
Depending on one's preference a wing chun person can adjust to a sport of their choice.

As I often point out- wing chun diversity often shows lack of quality control in the art. Using poor examples of wing chun creates many straw man arguments against it.Without chi sao you end up mimicking wing chun motions.

joy chaudhuri

[sanjuro_ronin]

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A common mistake is to regard chi sao as just a drill. The more you learn wing chun, the more you can do with your chi sao in a good Ip Man tradition. In chi sao you can tell how much wing chun a person has developed. Development of control , different kinds of timing,- your self and the other person,different kinds of timing, learning distance, lines, angles, circles, centering, balancing,engaging, disengaging, stepping, locking, unlocking, breaking,cavity work, using different parts of the hand and feet, attacking, blocking,semi grabbing, familiarity with different kinds of power, varying speeds, positioning... all relevant in chi sao.

Wing chun step by step progressive development is a great way to organize all of the above. And there is more to chi sao than just single and double rolling,



Sure you can get some of this in other ways.I see no problem with people doing some other art.But wing chun is my carefully chosen art. To each his own. Wing chun progressive development is a great way to organize all of the above. And there is more to chi sao than just single and double rolling,If someone does not like chi sao- probably best to find some other art.Keep it honest- don't call it wing chun.
Depending on one's preference a wing chun person can adjust to a sport of their choice.

As I often point out- wing chun diversity often shows lack of quality control in the art. Using poor examples of wing chun creates many straw man arguments against it.Without chi sao you end up mimicking wing chun motions.

joy chaudhuri

Thanks Joy, that was very well put.

[Ultimatewingchun]

We chat a lot about chi sao
Understatement, I know.

But what do YOU feel YOU get from chi sao that you can't get from doing anything else?

***I AGREE with Van that, although there are many other ways to develop good sensitivity, contact reflexes and the like, what chi sao provides is a unique way of doing all of the above in a WING CHUN context: relentless close quarter striking while maintaining control of the center, and if need be, your opponent's arms.

And not just any ol' striking, but a very particular kind: mainly a vertically fisted punch that has the elbow almost directly behind it while squaring up the centerline to the points on his body your attacking - for the most part (which is the basic uniqueness of wing chun)...

since close quarter elbow and knee strikes are thrown very similar to how other styles might throw them...and of course, there are the finger strikes, but this kind of attack is very limited compared to throwing punches.

And as Kevin pointed out, double arm chi sao does provide a good platform for learning and maintaining proper close quarter distancing in order to do the above moves (both offense and defense) efficiently...

and of course good chi sao will also provide the opportunity to learn some subtle unbalancing - and at times some very direct and aggressive pressuring - of the opponent's COG as well.

As for Joy's point that chi sao is more than just a drill - I couldn't disagree more; on the contrary, good wing chun quality contol, imo, has to be measured by a wing chun player's skills in fighting/sparring....

while it is true that if he has little-to-no real chi sao skills - although he may be a good fighter - he's probably not using that much wing chun in his arsenal. That said, to look upon chi sao as being something much more than a drill is to encourage over reliance upon chi sao as the measuring rod in judging one's overall wing chun skills - and imo only sparring/fighting can be such a measuring rod.

WHICH BRINGS ME TO A VERY IMPORTANT QUESTION THAT SANJURO OBVIOUSLY WAS TRYING TO ADDRESS IN THE FIRST POST ON THIS THREAD...

A good wrestler, grappler type can develop similar skills within their platforms (like pummeling)...and other styles can do similar things...

but if you want to understand the whole wing chun close infight striking game - and ability to flow through, around, above, and below openings in your opponent's defenses in order to strike him from very close...then you have to be skilled in chi sao - and then translate those chi sao skills into actual fighting/sparring...

since few other fighting methods (if any) do this particular thing as well.

[chusauli]

I get dynamic weight training. I am always to striving to get a person's weight on top of me, so I can manipulate it, guide it, control it, throw it and set up linked strikes from the manipulation.

WCK is based on indexing for tools - that is whatever fits in the gates at that moment, given the time and position relative to the opponent.

There are no fixed stances, only balance. There is no form/shape, only body structure in the moment. There are no hand techniques, only dealing with energy, which creates these moments in time that people call techniques.

[t_niehoff]

I go away for vacation for two weeks and come back to the inmates running the asylum.

Chi sao is not a drill? WTF is it then?

It's really very, very simple once you get past the fantasy, pretend-fighting perspectives. This sums it up drilling in a straightforward, clear way. The blog pertains to BJJ, but applies to ANY martial art:

http://caneprevost.wordpress.com/2010/04/11/the-golden-rule-of-drills/

The test for any skill development drill is: does what you do in the drill closely resemble your fighting? If not, then you are practicing one thing to do another, and that's the definition of poor training.

[SAAMAG]

I go away for vacation for two weeks and come back to the inmates running the asylum.

Chi sao is not a drill? WTF is it then?

It's really very, very simple once you get past the fantasy, pretend-fighting perspectives. This sums it up drilling in a straightforward, clear way. The blog pertains to BJJ, but applies to ANY martial art:

http://caneprevost.wordpress.com/2010/04/11/the-golden-rule-of-drills/

The test for any skill development drill is: does what you do in the drill closely resemble your fighting? If not, then you are practicing one thing to do another, and that's the definition of poor training.

Punching the speedbag doesn't look like anything a boxer would do in a fight, but it increases certain attributes boxers find valuable. A drill in general builds certain attributes or skills that are valuable in combat. The skill of touch sensitivity is important to wing chun with respect to it's techniques. Most people here realize the drill for what it is. Then again many do not. As long as a person keeps in mind what the goal of the drill is--and makes sure to be working towards that goal--the drill will be useful. One you stray away from it, its a waste of time (unfortunately this is what most of the YM line has done).

[Lee Chiang Po]

Chi Sao is indeed a drill. There can be any number of drills that can be called Chi Sao. It is as all WC drills, a system whereby 2 Wing Chun practitioners can practice their skills. Because only Wing Chun fighters use these techniques you can not really do these drills with fighters from other systems. They simply do not do Chi Sao as such, so all the Chi Sao you can do will not ready you to fight necessarily. It only teaches you to use your side of the equation. If you get into a fight somewhere it is not likely that it will be with another WC fighter, so you would be doing one sided Chi Sao. You will not get tanned, pakked, bonged, or rickidoed. Chi Sao is any drill whereby you train a particular technique or set of techniques, such as trapping for instance. You get to apply your defensive techniques, then your training partner gets to apply his or her own defensive techniques, back and forth. I think that when people started turning it into some sort of game it lost some of it real meaning.
I have had a rather unusual number of fights in my life, and I have met up with people with all sorts of different fighting skills, but I have yet to run up on another Wing Chun fighter. And most of these different fighting skills were not at all highly trained. This is not to say that an individual that is strong and aggressive can not give you one hell of a fight. What I am saying is that Chi Sao only works with someone that does chi sao.

[anerlich]

I go away for vacation for two weeks and come back to the inmates running the asylum.

The inmates have always run the asylum, however in your absence there seems to have been a lot less paranoid ideas of reference, one less person with a messiah complex, and rather less OCD about theoretical fighters.

[Ultimatewingchun]

The inmates have always run the asylum, however in your absence there seems to have been a lot less paranoid ideas of reference, one less person with a messiah complex, and rather less OCD about theoretical fighters.

***AWESOME :D;):p

[grasshopper 2.0]

I get dynamic weight training. I am always to striving to get a person's weight on top of me, so I can manipulate it, guide it, control it, throw it and set up linked strikes from the manipulation.

WCK is based on indexing for tools - that is whatever fits in the gates at that moment, given the time and position relative to the opponent.

There are no fixed stances, only balance. There is no form/shape, only body structure in the moment. There are no hand techniques, only dealing with energy, which creates these moments in time that people call techniques.

i second that. there's a very wing chun-specific muscles/structure that chi-sao, when done correctly, that no other exercise (i can think of) that comes close to targeting those muscle groups and/or in the same way. it's not a tension, or lifting, it's just a flexible resistance and over time, the amount of load you can "take on" increases and increases..

creates a ridiculously solid structure and adds boom to that punch.

[bennyvt]

i think chi sao is a way me practicing certain reflexes to be used in a fight. This is a way of doing there skills as many times as possible in a short time. I find sparing is more about getting in and out. Both are needed. Too much of one you tend to go weird

[t_niehoff]

Punching the speedbag doesn't look like anything a boxer would do in a fight, but it increases certain attributes boxers find valuable.


The speed bag isn't a skill building drill -- you are not developing boxing skill by doing it.



A drill in general builds certain attributes or skills that are valuable in combat. The skill of touch sensitivity is important to wing chun with respect to it's techniques.


"Sensitivity" is just timing derived from our tactile sense.

Chi sao permits you to learn and practice various WCK contact skills/movements but not in a context as you will really use them -- as your opponent/partner isn't "feeding" you realistic movement (he is not moving as a whole as he will in fighting). So, the timing/sensitivity you are getting in chi sao is a false one, an unrealistic one. There is no real timing or sensitivity to be had from chi sao.

You don't get better at fighting by pretend fighting.



Most people here realize the drill for what it is. Then again many do not. As long as a person keeps in mind what the goal of the drill is--and makes sure to be working towards that goal--the drill will be useful. One you stray away from it, its a waste of time (unfortunately this is what most of the YM line has done).

The real problem with what most people in WCK do is they go about things from the wrong end.

[YungChun]

Chi sao permits you to learn and practice various WCK contact skills/movements but not in a context as you will really use them -- as your opponent/partner isn't "feeding" you realistic movement (he is not moving as a whole as he will in fighting). So, the timing/sensitivity you are getting in chi sao is a false one, an unrealistic one. There is no real timing or sensitivity to be had from chi sao.


Sorry but this is just (more) hyperbolic and uninformed BS..

You can't train to take the line from those who don't hold it.

You can't do focused and progressive training on close range VT in a generic sparring environment.

You can't train VT tools and techniques in a focused and progressive manner in a generic sparring environment.

This is seen in examples (and there are many) of those who cannot even do these things (basics) in a drill (ChiSao).. Which you have intimated is easy to do..(it is not).. So if so many can't even do this in ChiSao they certainly won't be able to do them in sparring. Moreover, sparring depending on what kind of sparring will encompass a wide range of tactical conditions.. This makes it impossible to FOCUS on close range work because much of the time one will be doing other things, like outside movement, ground, clinch (grappling) etc..

So the purpose of the drills is to provide a platform that amplifies the close range (VT range) and specific VT conditions to work off of.. No one thinks that these are the only conditions one will see in the fight, but they are the conditions VT trains. VT trains those conditions and focuses on certain ranges, tools and conditions that IT operates in and uses.. It does not attempt to train things it does not do... That should be obvious.. as it is true for any style.. Boxing does not focus on ground work.. Boxing does not focus on what VT does, etc..

The drills are the drills and they are great drills when done right.. No one except you has suggested that these drills are the end of the training; no one except you has suggested that these drills somehow are fighting..or sparring..

Most of your objections about the drills would be just as true for GorSao, or simply VT vs VT sparring...

The idea is progression, starting with a lower stress, low complexity environment and then adding more as the student progresses.. Again, we see that most folks can't even express many of VT's elements in a drill.. And if they can't do that, well then we know they won't be able to do it in sparring.. VT is a smart progressive training system..that is great for what it is, progressive VT training.

Simple as that..

[shawchemical]

The speed bag isn't a skill building drill -- you are not developing boxing skill by doing it.



"Sensitivity" is just timing derived from our tactile sense.

Chi sao permits you to learn and practice various WCK contact skills/movements but not in a context as you will really use them -- as your opponent/partner isn't "feeding" you realistic movement (he is not moving as a whole as he will in fighting). So, the timing/sensitivity you are getting in chi sao is a false one, an unrealistic one. There is no real timing or sensitivity to be had from chi sao.

You don't get better at fighting by pretend fighting.



The real problem with what most people in WCK do is they go about things from the wrong end.

Does your point really only highlight that many people aren't training efficiently, not that the drills themselves are flawed??

[shawchemical]

The speed bag isn't a skill building drill -- you are not developing boxing skill by doing it.



"Sensitivity" is just timing derived from our tactile sense.

Chi sao permits you to learn and practice various WCK contact skills/movements but not in a context as you will really use them -- as your opponent/partner isn't "feeding" you realistic movement (he is not moving as a whole as he will in fighting). So, the timing/sensitivity you are getting in chi sao is a false one, an unrealistic one. There is no real timing or sensitivity to be had from chi sao.

You don't get better at fighting by pretend fighting.



The real problem with what most people in WCK do is they go about things from the wrong end.

The speed bag is only a skill building drill. Hand eye coordination is a skill which can be developed and improved. Relaxed but fast and accurate hand positioning is a skill to be developed and improved. It's got some corollary benefits, but primarily a skill improvement device.

The ideas are directly linked to combat, even if the techniques are applied slightly differently while hitting it. What is boxing really?? Hitting a moving target with your hands trying to cause as much damage as possible (or score points) while receiving as little in return as possible. The speed bag is as much a skill building exercise as the floor to ceiling or hitting a heavy bag.

THe amount of skill you take out of an exercise, or the measure of what you learn through a given exercise depends on your focus and application during the drill.

[t_niehoff]

Does your point really only highlight that many people aren't training efficiently, not that the drills themselves are flawed??

Whether you see the drills as "flawed" depends on what you believe they do.

If you see the WCK drills as developing fighting skills (by doing the drills, you can then perform the actions in fighting), then they are flawed since they don't and can't do that.

If, however, you see them ONLY as a platform for learning the actions (techniques, movements, etc.) of WCK, then they aren't flawed.

[t_niehoff]

The speed bag is only a skill building drill. Hand eye coordination is a skill which can be developed and improved. Relaxed but fast and accurate hand positioning is a skill to be developed and improved. It's got some corollary benefits, but primarily a skill improvement device.


That's not a skill -- a skill is your ability to perform a task with max certainty and min time/effort. Coordination is an attribute that goes into skill.



The ideas are directly linked to combat,


Who cares if "ideas" are directly related to "combat"? You could say that about almost anything.



even if the techniques are applied slightly differently while hitting it. What is boxing really?? Hitting a moving target with your hands trying to cause as much damage as possible (or score points) while receiving as little in return as possible. The speed bag is as much a skill building exercise as the floor to ceiling or hitting a heavy bag.


Obviously you haven't trained under a good boxing coach -- boxing is much, much more than that and is very sophisticated. But, you can't appreciate that by NOT doing it.

Hitting the heavy bag isn't a skill building drill either -- it is a conditioning drill.



THe amount of skill you take out of an exercise, or the measure of what you learn through a given exercise depends on your focus and application during the drill.

No, you ONLY develop skill by and through performing that skill itself. How do you develop skill at riding a bike or swimming or surfing or any other athletic activity? By and through the performance of the activity. It's no different with WCK.

[t_niehoff]

Sorry but this is just (more) hyperbolic and uninformed BS..

You can't train to take the line from those who don't hold it.

You can't do focused and progressive training on close range VT in a generic sparring environment.

You can't train VT tools and techniques in a focused and progressive manner in a generic sparring environment.


Every functional martial art (boxing, BJJ, judo, MT, sambo, wrestling, etc.) makes sparring the core learning/training platform.

Just as they do, you can make sparring a progressive and focused activity -- IF YOU KNOW HOW.



This is seen in examples (and there are many) of those who cannot even do these things (basics) in a drill (ChiSao).. Which you have intimated is easy to do..(it is not).. So if so many can't even do this in ChiSao they certainly won't be able to do them in sparring. Moreover, sparring depending on what kind of sparring will encompass a wide range of tactical conditions.. This makes it impossible to FOCUS on close range work because much of the time one will be doing other things, like outside movement, ground, clinch (grappling) etc..


Chi sao in many ways is counter-productive -- it gives you a false sense of WCK as you are only practicing unrealsitic WCK when you do it.

You can start off by teaching trainees HOW TO USE the basic strategic framework of WCK (the faat), HOW TO USE the basic skills to execute that game plan, and then let them practice actually DOING it against a genuinely resisting opponent (sparring), and then build off that basic framework. That's what we do.

Of course, this presumes that the instructor himself knows the basic strategic framework, knows how to use the fundamental skills to execute it, etc.



So the purpose of the drills is to provide a platform that amplifies the close range (VT range) and specific VT conditions to work off of.. No one thinks that these are the only conditions one will see in the fight, but they are the conditions VT trains. VT trains those conditions and focuses on certain ranges, tools and conditions that IT operates in and uses.. It does not attempt to train things it does not do... That should be obvious.. as it is true for any style.. Boxing does not focus on ground work.. Boxing does not focus on what VT does, etc..


I agree with you. But, instead of using a platform that is unrealistic and doesn't develop fighting skills -- look, people like TST, etc. have been doing chi sao their entire lives and couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag, doesn't that tell you that chi sao doesn't develop skill?-- why not use a realistic platform? Why not practice doing it exactly like you will, under the same conditions, the same context, etc.? In that way, your drilling looks exactly like your fighting.



The drills are the drills and they are great drills when done right.. No one except you has suggested that these drills are the end of the training; no one except you has suggested that these drills somehow are fighting..or sparring..


And because they are not fighting/sparring they cannot develop fighting skills. That's the whole point. You don't learn to fight and develop fighting skills by NOT fighting. So these drills are mainly a waste of time. I say "mainly" since they are fine as an introduction, a way to learn the actions themselves (develop coordination, etc.). But once you have that and are comfortable doing the action, it is time to move on -- after that the drill becomes a disease. And, you don't need to learn that way. As the functional arts show us, there is a better way.



Most of your objections about the drills would be just as true for GorSao, or simply VT vs VT sparring...


It's true on anything that isn't realistic.



The idea is progression, starting with a lower stress, low complexity environment and then adding more as the student progresses.. Again, we see that most folks can't even express many of VT's elements in a drill.. And if they can't do that, well then we know they won't be able to do it in sparring.. VT is a smart progressive training system..that is great for what it is, progressive VT training.

Simple as that..

The trouble is there is NO progression with unrealisitic training, it is an illusion.

[ZenMindT]

There are no fixed stances, only balance. There is no form/shape, only body structure in the moment. There are no hand techniques, only dealing with energy, which creates these moments in time that people call techniques.

************************************************** ***************
IMHO, this statment says more about WC (as I see it at least) thany any thread on here. Thanx for that Chusauli.

[chusauli]

Thank you Zenmind!

Learning WCK is like learning a foreign language in school. You learn phrases, pick up practice dialogues, take tests, but when it comes down to it - can you really speak the language?

I learned French for 5 years in Jr. High and High School. I read some books in French, and at times, I've flown AirFrance for 17 hours, listened to lectures of French speaking acupuncturists with English translation, watch French movies, and when I was in Paris, I struggled and stammered to find where my luggage was... LOL! And in Canada, my French was ridiculed! I admit, my spoken French and grammar is terrible.

So one can learn something, but it is not natural. Perhaps because I already am bilingual it is my excuse, and perhaps if someday I live in a French speaking country, I can draw upon it.

WCK not practiced well and not learned well will be like my lousy French and would be BS.