WC in MMA

[Knifefighter]

This is what Wing Chun looks like when it is trained and fought full contact in an MMA environment:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gR3beL5CWo

A good example of how WC should be used against another trained multi-discipline fighter.

[t_niehoff]

Instead of focusing on what WCK will look like in MMA, I think it is better to focus the question more narrowly -- how will YOUR WCK look in MMA? Can YOU do in fighting what YOU train to do as YOU train to do it? That's the test for any martial art or martial artist.

The ONLY way to know the answer to that question is to try it and see -- fight/spar in a MMA environment. If a person hasn't done that, all they have is speculation and fantasy.

[Lee Chiang Po]

So, which one was doing Wing Chun? I couldn't tell. T is right, the only way to see if what you do works is to fight, but not in a MMA atmosphere. Everything turns into Muay Thai in a MMA situation. I get a kick out of watching the MMA fights on TV where they introduce the fighters as some sort of Martial Arts belt holder, but you never see it in the fights. You would expect to see some of each fighters trained skills, but for some reason all we see is the same thing with both fighters. Just like this video clip. It just looks like 2 amature MMA fighters doing boxing and slap kicking.
If you are going to prove anything you are going to have to get away from this MMA thing and come up with a way to have full contact fights without all the rules and equipment. You are going to have to stop training MMA and training whatever skill set you have. If you train MMA fighting like everyone else does you will end up fighting the MMA way.

[sanjuro_ronin]

So, which one was doing Wing Chun? I couldn't tell. T is right, the only way to see if what you do works is to fight, but not in a MMA atmosphere. Everything turns into Muay Thai in a MMA situation. I get a kick out of watching the MMA fights on TV where they introduce the fighters as some sort of Martial Arts belt holder, but you never see it in the fights. You would expect to see some of each fighters trained skills, but for some reason all we see is the same thing with both fighters. Just like this video clip. It just looks like 2 amature MMA fighters doing boxing and slap kicking.
If you are going to prove anything you are going to have to get away from this MMA thing and come up with a way to have full contact fights without all the rules and equipment. You are going to have to stop training MMA and training whatever skill set you have. If you train MMA fighting like everyone else does you will end up fighting the MMA way.

That was awesome !!!
:D:D:D:p:D:D:D

[HumbleWCGuy]

This is what Wing Chun looks like when it is trained and fought full contact in an MMA environment:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gR3beL5CWo

A good example of how WC should be used against another trained multi-discipline fighter.

That video has been posted a few times. The winner is certainly a decent fighter but it is difficult to say that he was showing how to bring WC to the cage considering that there was no vertical fist, the crosses were all overhands, and he had a preference for taking his opponent down in spite of the fact that he had teh upright battle in hand.

I think that if one is going to show himself to be a WC man, he needs to go out and start throwing tight crisp vertical fists. Obviously, one should make adjustments as a fight wears one, but I can't say that this fellow represented WC in this instance even if it is his base art.

[goju]

im gonna dig a big pit in my backyard and we can fight to the death in it

any takers?
:D:p

[t_niehoff]

So, which one was doing Wing Chun? I couldn't tell. T is right, the only way to see if what you do works is to fight, but not in a MMA atmosphere. Everything turns into Muay Thai in a MMA situation.


What I am saying is that I don't think it prudent to paint with a broad brush (what should WCK look like) but rather make the question a personal/individual one (do you fight like you train to fight).

You DO need to put anything you do in a MMA environment since that environment permits the contestants to fight in all ranges (stand up, clinch and ground). What good is your stand up if you can be taken down at will (which completely neutralizes your stand up)?

When you do put what you do in a MMA environment, you will find that it will force you to greatly adapt your game.



I get a kick out of watching the MMA fights on TV where they introduce the fighters as some sort of Martial Arts belt holder, but you never see it in the fights. You would expect to see some of each fighters trained skills, but for some reason all we see is the same thing with both fighters. Just like this video clip. It just looks like 2 amature MMA fighters doing boxing and slap kicking.
If you are going to prove anything you are going to have to get away from this MMA thing and come up with a way to have full contact fights without all the rules and equipment. You are going to have to stop training MMA and training whatever skill set you have. If you train MMA fighting like everyone else does you will end up fighting the MMA way.

MMA isn't a "style" or an "art" -- it is a ruleset, an environment. Fighters who compete in MMA, or just practice it for fun, do what works, whatever works. If you show them something that works better, they'll steal it. There is a reason that you see the same things in all MMA fights -- those are the things that have proved to work consistently, and so people adopt them.

If I put you in a MMA environment for 6 months and had you spar regularly, you'd start doing those things that work and stop doing those things that don't (since you'd keep getting killed doing those things).

When you don't go through that process, it is easy to fantasize about what you would or could do.

[chusauli]

In my system, we don't use a "vertical" punch - we use a "diagonal" punch - a vertical fist held with the thumb upwards at a 45 degree angle. This is the same angulation of the punch I learned from William Cheung and Hawkins Cheung.

Aaron is using my system, at the end of the fight, he has trapped the opponent and is executing several punches in succession before he submits him with a guillotine (last move of Biu Jee).

[SAAMAG]

Last move of biu gee is a guillotine?? I thought the last move was the 3 bows to budda or whatever people call it. Sometimes depending on the lineage some people have punches or kicks at the end. But generally it's the bows with the prayer palm overhead.

A guillotine?!

[Knifefighter]

So, which one was doing Wing Chun? I couldn't tell. T is right, the only way to see if what you do works is to fight, but not in a MMA atmosphere. Everything turns into Muay Thai in a MMA situation. I get a kick out of watching the MMA fights on TV where they introduce the fighters as some sort of Martial Arts belt holder, but you never see it in the fights. You would expect to see some of each fighters trained skills, but for some reason all we see is the same thing with both fighters. Just like this video clip. It just looks like 2 amature MMA fighters doing boxing and slap kicking.
If you are going to prove anything you are going to have to get away from this MMA thing and come up with a way to have full contact fights without all the rules and equipment. You are going to have to stop training MMA and training whatever skill set you have. If you train MMA fighting like everyone else does you will end up fighting the MMA way.

When WC works successfully (at least against someone who is skilled, conditioned, and knows something about striking, groundfighting, and takedowns), it will look pretty much like you saw in the clip. Changing the rules and getting rid of the equipment will not change anything at all. The old no-rules vale tudo fights pretty much showed that fighting looks pretty much the same when it is trained multi-discipline fighter vs. trained multi-discipline fighter.

Theoretical, fantasy, non-fighters who have never gone full contact against another person with multi-discipline skills will probably never understand this, however.

[Knifefighter]

That video has been posted a few times. The winner is certainly a decent fighter but it is difficult to say that he was showing how to bring WC to the cage considering that there was no vertical fist, the crosses were all overhands, and he had a preference for taking his opponent down in spite of the fact that he had teh upright battle in hand.

I think that if one is going to show himself to be a WC man, he needs to go out and start throwing tight crisp vertical fists. Obviously, one should make adjustments as a fight wears one, but I can't say that this fellow represented WC in this instance even if it is his base art.

The thing that makes Aaron's guys different than many tradionalists is that they get it. They know goal is not to show one as a WC guy or any type of specific style, but to use what works best in the circumstances to win.

There's a reason they are using somewhat differing techniques and style... because that's what works best. If the other stuff worked as good or better, they'd be using it.

[SAAMAG]

Their stuff isn't all that different. If you take a look at their extreme wing chun series...its wing chun...just applied in a more mma type of format.

[Knifefighter]

Their stuff isn't all that different. If you take a look at their extreme wing chun series...its wing chun...just applied in a more mma type of format.

OK, it's the same. Whether you want to call it different or the same, that's pretty much what it looks like... just like most other fighting.

[anerlich]

Last move of biu gee is a guillotine??

I can sort of see that application in TWC, though IMO it is a stretch and if you tried ot do it as is the guy has loads of room to escape.

IMO the gum/tan/garn section in SLT is a better approximation of slapping on a guillotine.

Not IMO that practicing either form will necessarily prepare you to apply a good choke.

[SAAMAG]

I can understand inventive ideas of application of the forms, but I never thought of it as that...though I can see it.

Though you're right, the only way to gain skill in applying a guillotine is (just like any other grappling move) you do it to someone who doesn't want you doing it to them.

[HumbleWCGuy]

The thing that makes Aaron's guys different than many tradionalists is that they get it. They know goal is not to show one as a WC guy or any type of specific style, but to use what works best in the circumstances to win.

There's a reason they are using somewhat differing techniques and style... because that's what works best. If the other stuff worked as good or better, they'd be using it.

I have no problem with them doing a lot of other stuff. I do a lot of other stuff too, but it isn't WC. The ultimate goal is to win fights. If WC suites you then use it. If WC does not then use something else. This guy was using something else so let's not call it WC.

I would certainly call myself a practitioner of non-classical WC, even by those standards, I would have a hard time calling that fighting WC.

[Knifefighter]

I have no problem with them doing a lot of other stuff. I do a lot of other stuff too, but it isn't WC. The ultimate goal is to win fights. If WC suites you then use it. If WC does not then use something else. This guy was using something else so let's not call it WC.

I would certainly call myself a practitioner of non-classical WC, even by those standards, I would have a hard time calling that fighting WC.

OK, then... I guess WC doesn't work very well against trained, multi-disciplined fighters. Otherwise, he would have used it.

[HumbleWCGuy]

OK, then... I guess WC doesn't work very well against trained, multi-disciplined fighters. Otherwise, he would have used it.

The WC that he learned probably doesn't.

[Knifefighter]

The WC that he learned probably doesn't.

LOL... but you have the "real" WC that works, while these guys don't, I suppose. :cool:

Funny how every single guy in the history of WC who puts other people down for not using their WC "correctly", but claims to have the "real" stuff himself has absolutely zero evidence of this. I guess you can join the join the crowd on that one.

[Pacman]

Aaron is using my system, at the end of the fight, he has trapped the opponent and is executing several punches in succession before he submits him with a guillotine (last move of Biu Jee).

if that is trapping, then every bully in the united states who gets his victim in a headlock and starts pounding away is a wing chun expert too.

aaron won the fight because he was in better shape. the other guy was gassed.

aside from the alleged "trapping" what other use of wing chun was there?

[Pacman]

LOL... but you have the "real" WC that works, while these guys don't, I suppose. :cool:

Funny how every single guy in the history of WC who puts other people down for not using their WC "correctly", but claims to have the "real" stuff himself has absolutely zero evidence of this. I guess you can join the join the crowd on that one.

there are lots of videos out there. if the only evidence you consider valid is winning an MMA fight, that is another thing.

[Knifefighter]

there are lots of videos out there. if the only evidence you consider valid is winning an MMA fight, that is another thing.

Please post one.

[HumbleWCGuy]

LOL... but you have the "real" WC that works, while these guys don't, I suppose. :cool:

Funny how every single guy in the history of WC who puts other people down for not using their WC "correctly", but claims to have the "real" stuff himself has absolutely zero evidence of this. I guess you can join the join the crowd on that one.

I don't think that I hold a monopoly on good WC. That WC guy who smoked you in that video seemed to have pretty good WC. Ducan Leung's guys have outstanding WC. I am sure that other members of this forum do as well.

Edit:
Dale, if you are just here to start your usual nonsense, then I recommend that you get a permanent ban. If you are going to post clips like the one at the top of this thread and call them WC then you have absolutely no idea about WC and really have zero business on this forum or any kung fu forum for that matter.

[Lee Chiang Po]

What I am saying is that I don't think it prudent to paint with a broad brush (what should WCK look like) but rather make the question a personal/individual one (do you fight like you train to fight).

You DO need to put anything you do in a MMA environment since that environment permits the contestants to fight in all ranges (stand up, clinch and ground). What good is your stand up if you can be taken down at will (which completely neutralizes your stand up)?

When you do put what you do in a MMA environment, you will find that it will force you to greatly adapt your game.



MMA isn't a "style" or an "art" -- it is a ruleset, an environment. Fighters who compete in MMA, or just practice it for fun, do what works, whatever works. If you show them something that works better, they'll steal it. There is a reason that you see the same things in all MMA fights -- those are the things that have proved to work consistently, and so people adopt them.

If I put you in a MMA environment for 6 months and had you spar regularly, you'd start doing those things that work and stop doing those things that don't (since you'd keep getting killed doing those things).

When you don't go through that process, it is easy to fantasize about what you would or could do.

This is my point. It is a ruleset and an environment. In order to compete there everyone has to adopt and adapt. They end up with the same ruleset so they pretty much end up having to use the same fighting techniques and methods as everyone else. I can not and probably never could compete in the ring, as it is with most everyone else. We have exceptional individuals that shine there, and a whole bunch of other people that really want to. A gung fu system is designed to be used in a way as to make you equal to others as best as possible. In the ruleset environment of MMA you also have to be extremely fit in order to compete with any real expectations. Just look at the top fighters in MMA today. Would you have any prayer of a chance in beating any one of them? No. Most of us wouldn't. Some of them got caught shooting steriods to make them stronger. This is the key with MMA. Learning and skill are following far behind physical training and strength training. In order to get a fellow into an arm bar, kemora? You have to be stronger than he is in order to force the arm into position and hold it. And if you are not strong enough it won't happen, or he just might force his arm out of it. Just look at all the top guys. They are all well above average in what they do. Everyone else is just wishing. You can not reasonably expect any none sport fighting system to be able to do anything in such an environment.

[chusauli]

if that is trapping, then every bully in the united states who gets his victim in a headlock and starts pounding away is a wing chun expert too.

aaron won the fight because he was in better shape. the other guy was gassed.

aside from the alleged "trapping" what other use of wing chun was there?

Pacman,

That is a trap - its not going to be "Fan Sao" like in Chi Sao... that's fantasy stuff. In real fights, you do it that way to deliver the goods. See how Aaron does not wind up- his hands strike from where they are.

You look at the body and you know the pressure Aaron is exerting comes from the body structure. But then, I know most people in WCK have no body structure and can't see it. They merely strike from the arms, which is not enough to knock anyone out.

Its okay to criticize, but what do you do in MMA matches? Show me your good WCK and ideal WCK working. My grandstudent Aaron can at least deliver the goods and won.

[Knifefighter]

I don't think that I hold a monopoly on good WC. That WC guy who smoked you in that video seemed to have pretty good WC. Ducan Leung's guys have outstanding WC. I am sure that other members of this forum do as well.
Seems to be no evidence of any of them fighting full contact... what a surprise. :rolleyes:


If you are going to post clips like the one at the top of this thread and call them WC then you have absolutely no idea about WC and really have zero business on this forum or any kung fu forum for that matter.
Funny, but I'd be willing to bet Aaron and his guys would beg to differ in terms of whether or not they are using WC.

[Knifefighter]

This is my point. It is a ruleset and an environment. In order to compete there everyone has to adopt and adapt. They end up with the same ruleset so they pretty much end up having to use the same fighting techniques and methods as everyone else. I can not and probably never could compete in the ring, as it is with most everyone else. We have exceptional individuals that shine there, and a whole bunch of other people that really want to. A gung fu system is designed to be used in a way as to make you equal to others as best as possible. In the ruleset environment of MMA you also have to be extremely fit in order to compete with any real expectations. Just look at the top fighters in MMA today. Would you have any prayer of a chance in beating any one of them? No. Most of us wouldn't. Some of them got caught shooting steriods to make them stronger. This is the key with MMA. Learning and skill are following far behind physical training and strength training. In order to get a fellow into an arm bar, kemora? You have to be stronger than he is in order to force the arm into position and hold it. And if you are not strong enough it won't happen, or he just might force his arm out of it. Just look at all the top guys. They are all well above average in what they do. Everyone else is just wishing. You can not reasonably expect any none sport fighting system to be able to do anything in such an environment.

WOW!!! Talk about clueless.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Seems to be no evidence of any of them fighting full contact... what a surprise. :rolleyes:


Funny, but I'd be willing to bet Aaron and his guys would beg to differ in terms of whether or not they are using WC.

Maybe so but if I remember correctly, Aaron or someone close to him posted the clip the first time. It basically got the same review that it is getting now. I know that my post was deleted and maybe the whole thread. It has been a while.

[SAAMAG]

That's the thing about Orr's guys. No one is saying they can't fight, but what they are saying is that it's not WC. I used to be one of those people until I did more research on what they do, took a look at their 7 DVD set and therein were the principles of wing chun being used, along with the punches, and varied use of techniques like lan sao and other things. It's not 1800's WC, it's applied WC from an MMA perspective for modern day.

So now I look at it as more of an mma using WC elements type of style, because it's got wing chun in there, just not in the traditional sense

[Knifefighter]

Maybe so but if I remember correctly, Aaron or someone close to him posted the clip the first time. It basically got the same review that it is getting now. I know that my post was deleted and maybe the whole thread. It has been a while.

What a surprise! All the theoretical, fantasy, non-fighters trash-talked the fighting of a WC guy who is actually going out there and fighting. No wonder WC is generally a laughingstock. The pretend guys are telling the guys who are actually out there representing that they are doing it wrong.

But OK, lets assume you are right, that they are unable to use their WC. That must mean that WC, as a system, suks big time. Take a guy and training him in wrestling, bjj, boxing, muay thai, and/or sambo for 8 months or so and he will be able to use the majority of what he has learned.

I saw him using BJJ quite effectively, even though he has significantly less BJJ training than WC training.

Oh well, I guess that just speaks to the superiority of BJJ.

[Pacman]

That is a trap - its not going to be "Fan Sao" like in Chi Sao... that's fantasy stuff. In real fights, you do it that way to deliver the goods.

WC or any other fighting style won't look 100% like how you practice because in a real dynamic situation you have to adjust for distance, angles, balance, and a ton of other things etc.

I get that.

However you can't call grabbing a guy behind the head and punching him trapping. That is simply ridiculous.

I can tell you objectively and unemotionally why that is not WC trapping. It has nothing to do with how it looks either.

The whole point of trapping, the whole idea is to neutralize your opponents weapons be it hands or feet. So lets say you trap an arm then you have two of your hands against his one. You are safer. Now you have the advantage. That is trapping.

By standing in front of someone, putting one hand behind your opponents head and punching him is not trapping because you are still in the line of fire. He can hit you just as much as you are hitting him. The fight is still an open exchange.

[Pacman]

That's the thing about Orr's guys. No one is saying they can't fight, but what they are saying is that it's not WC. I used to be one of those people until I did more research on what they do, took a look at their 7 DVD set and therein were the principles of wing chun being used, along with the punches, and varied use of techniques like lan sao and other things. It's not 1800's WC, it's applied WC from an MMA perspective for modern day.

So now I look at it as more of an mma using WC elements type of style, because it's got wing chun in there, just not in the traditional sense

curious. what is modified? what principles are they doing?

im talking about in the fight.

[Alan Orr]

Seems to be no evidence of any of them fighting full contact... what a surprise. :rolleyes:


Funny, but I'd be willing to bet Aaron and his guys would beg to differ in terms of whether or not they are using WC.

I must say - Dale I respect, as he understands what fighting really is about. You train your art and develop your skills - then you use them!

It answer to the question - Aaron and my guys all train wing chun - chu sau lei wing chun - which I feel is very different to a lot of wing chun as we use our forums and chi sao to develop our skills - timing, positioning, power and so on. Then we fight - punch and kick!!! Thats martial arts.

The forms and chi sao are about personal development of your skill, its not fighting! I was sparring tonight with Neil and a top MMA fighter who comes to learn our punching, power development and timing etc and I can tell you most wing chun guys would not last 20 seconds with these guys. Its hard work!

In wing chun you see So many people doing forms and chi sao, but no sparring or fighting! The forms and chi sao are Training tools. Like a boxing on a speed bag. You don't see them bring a speed bag to a fight or punch in the way they punch a speed bag. Its very funny, as really good wing chun as a lot to offer - we have training protocals that help us develop our skills to become second nature. But a lot of wing chun guys don't see that the art is in the application under pressure.

Its when you are in the hole being punched and you see that opening that you are awake. Doing forms and chi sao is like drilling armbars and having a light roll in BJJ. Thats all good and important, then you have to step it up and see what works well all the time and also for you. I really feel that a lot of wing chun guys are only doing half the training! lol Time to try the other half - the hard half!

Before you judge you have to understand. I train Wing Chun, wrestling and BJJ with top instructors, I have trained with top fight trainers, I have 20 guys in my group fighting MMA, I train, teach and learn from top MMA fighters, my guys have won Pro and Semi Pro MMA fights (with our wing chun) - so I feel I have the background to have an informed view.


These clips are Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun -


Neil Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun punching

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiSYTNJDvUg&feature=related


Wing Chun Boxing -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPxklnLPeRM&feature=related



Chu Sau Lei chi sao demo -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKkp19KV9xg&feature=related

Best

Alan

[Knifefighter]

Good post Alan. You and your guys are the antithesis of the pretend, theoretical non-fighters saying you are not using "real" WC. Keep up the good work.

[Alan Orr]

WC or any other fighting style won't look 100% like how you practice because in a real dynamic situation you have to adjust for distance, angles, balance, and a ton of other things etc.

I get that.

However you can't call grabbing a guy behind the head and punching him trapping. That is simply ridiculous.

I can tell you objectively and unemotionally why that is not WC trapping. It has nothing to do with how it looks either.

The whole point of trapping, the whole idea is to neutralize your opponents weapons be it hands or feet. So lets say you trap an arm then you have two of your hands against his one. You are safer. Now you have the advantage. That is trapping.

By standing in front of someone, putting one hand behind your opponents head and punching him is not trapping because you are still in the line of fire. He can hit you just as much as you are hitting him. The fight is still an open exchange.

You have no clue bro!

trapping - is controling your opponent.

If you roll in BJJ you will find that pinning and trapping is all about control skills.

Wing Chun is the same. If you can't move well then you are limited and then you are set up.

Its not about trying to hold someones hands so they can't hit you. Thats just holding and hoping! If an opponent can not work their game that are trapped.

This may be just to slow them down or to make them gas from using to much energy etc but in the end its about the result it produces.

[Alan Orr]

Good post Alan. You and your guys are the antithesis of the pretend, theoretical non-fighters. Keep up the good work.

Thanks Dale, keep fighting the good fight bro

[SAAMAG]

Alan,

Can you illustrate for the guys who've not looked into chusaolei stuff what (in originally posted clip) was directly from a wing chun skillset?

[Alan Orr]

Alan,

Can you illustrate for the guys who've not looked into chusaolei stuff what (in originally posted clip) was directly from a wing chun skillset?


Punching Power development

Structure power - ie rooting - base - linking and delinking frame

Balance and reaction to pressure

Positioning

Angles of punching

Cutting punches - control of line of attack

Forward pressure

Don't look for lap and pak of bong sao guys!! These are you blueprints for your own understanding of the space you use around you. They are not blocks etc

If I use a cutting punch on the outside of your arm. Ie a wing chun punch that uses your forearm to pin (trap)as you punch then I quickly punch again. that is the energy of pak and lap - Ie one hand punching and cutting then as it pulls back it draws and the second punch then cuts.

Pak and lap drills are for students to learn the angle, timing, position - then you just throw 2 punches - with good timing, good position, good line control (trapping)

You don't need two hands on one!


best Alan

[Pacman]

Its not about trying to hold someones hands so they can't hit you. Thats just holding and hoping! If an opponent can not work their game that are trapped.


never said anything about holding hands. i said its about neutralizing their attacking weapons like their hands and feet.

if you define WC trapping as basically any method to controlling an opponent so that they cannot work their game 100% then thats great. You can't argue with someone's definition. Its better that understand someone's opinion than agree.

[Pacman]

i think this discussion has diverted to the legitimization of Robert Chu's Wing Chun, which is not the intent of any critique of the video.

Even with the videos and explanations of your WC, I really do not see where in that video ANY of this stuff is used (aside from the questionable headlock and calling a Biu Jee/guillotine choke). Perhaps it is too fast to for me to see, could someone please point it out?




Punching Power development

Structure power - ie rooting - base - linking and delinking frame

Balance and reaction to pressure

Positioning

Angles of punching

Cutting punches - control of line of attack

Forward pressure

Don't look for lap and pak of bong sao guys!! These are you blueprints for your own understanding of the space you use around you. They are not blocks etc

If I use a cutting punch on the outside of your arm. Ie a wing chun punch that uses your forearm to pin (trap)as you punch then I quickly punch again. that is the energy of pak and lap - Ie one hand punching and cutting then as it pulls back it draws and the second punch then cuts.

Pak and lap drills are for students to learn the angle, timing, position - then you just throw 2 punches - with good timing, good position, good line control (trapping)

You don't need two hands on one!


best Alan

[SAAMAG]

i think this discussion has diverted to the legitimization of Robert Chu's Wing Chun, which is not the intent of any critique of the video.

Even with the videos and explanations of your WC, I really do not see where in that video ANY of this stuff is used (aside from the questionable headlock and calling a Biu Jee/guillotine choke). Perhaps it is too fast to for me to see, could someone please point it out?

Well the punching power development isn't something you're going to "see" but rather feel.

The "structure power - ie rooting - base - linking and delinking frame" should be evident with their "presenting" (i.e. placing the hips forward, keeping the back straight, and using proper structure as opposed to muscle to link power from the ground).

Balance is a byproduct of proper stance and structure

Reaction to pressure & positioning, if keeping with the principles of WC should be such that they are maintaining their space and hitting as opportunities arise, not focusing on chasing hands of course, using angled stepping to move into more advantages positions (angles of punching), and using your own attacks as simultaneous defense (cutting punches).

The forward pressure would come from--most evidently anyway--in the idea of "escort what leaves and rush in at loss of contact". Answering an attack, sticking with the opponent, and rushing in when they retreat.

Though to be honest all of that can be seen in just about anyone doing good stand-up fighting.

[Knifefighter]

Though to be honest all of that can be seen in just about anyone doing good stand-up fighting.

Bingo! And that's why it doesn't look that much different from other standup styles when it is done in an effective manner.

[HumbleWCGuy]

That's the thing about Orr's guys. No one is saying they can't fight, but what they are saying is that it's not WC. I used to be one of those people until I did more research on what they do, took a look at their 7 DVD set and therein were the principles of wing chun being used, along with the punches, and varied use of techniques like lan sao and other things. It's not 1800's WC, it's applied WC from an MMA perspective for modern day.

So now I look at it as more of an mma using WC elements type of style, because it's got wing chun in there, just not in the traditional sense

I could not make a general claim about his guys. I can only say what I think of that video; I believe wasn't a great expression of WC. I don't want to make that seem like a bad thing. No one should have to apologize for winning a fight. Style points don't really count for anything accept for in these kinds of debates.

I will check out the videos when i can to see if I change my opinion.

[SAAMAG]

I could not make a general claim about his guys. I can only say what I think of that video; I believe wasn't a great expression of WC. I don't want to make that seem like a bad thing. No one should have to apologize for winning a fight. Style points don't really count for anything accept for in these kinds of debates.

I will check out the videos when i can to see if I change my opinion.

They do things a bit differently, there will be things that you may not agree with, but hopefully more things that you will find helpful. Definitly not what you'll be used to seeing with most wing chun in there. Then again my "internally" biased sifu does a lot of things in the same way. Either way I enjoyed the episodes that I saw, and found them very insightful.

[taai gihk yahn]

seems that with all the talk about WC looking like / not looking like WC, people are forgetting that WC, like any MA, is a path to the top of the mountain, that mountain top being successful in combat against a skilled, resisting opponent; notice that as the mountain gets taller, it's gets narrower, it gets less diverse, the paths start to converge and become less differentiated as they approach the goal; the ****her away you are from that mountain top, the more you can afford individual differentiation, so you have the luxury of stylistic idiosycracies; but when u reach the top, u can't do that - you have to put all that aside to leave only the functional outcome; and that is why when u apply WC or any other art successfully, it's going to all look very similar, because u are at the top of that mountain with someone else, and that is where our intrinsic structural make-up as individuals comes out - certain things are more biomechanically efficient / effective, and it is these techniques that will "come out" in a way that will obviate the stylistic aspects one observes in a controlled environment;

"style" is a template upon which grows and ultimately frees oneself from; to fixate / hold onto the ideal of form, because it's what a style "should" look like, is delusion; if one can fight and it looks like a style, then either the guy u r fighting is a scrub, or there are lots of rules in place that allows one to function that way;

[SAAMAG]

Bingo! And that's why it doesn't look that much different from other standup styles when it is done in an effective manner.

Absolutely. But here is where the discord lies with most people: they're looking for the "style".

Any good system will have all those prementioned attributes in it. A style however, is the distinct "flair" of doing things. That's what people are missing and that's what they're looking for. They want to see the vertical punches, the tan, bong, fook in motion. They want to see wing chun footwork, and all that sort of stuff.

That's why this discussing is going on. Though I agree with the comment above, the closer you get to the top of mountain, paths become more scarce and start to converge, I also have seen where the style is retained in the system...

[Phil Redmond]

Absolutely. But here is where the discord lies with most people: they're looking for the "style".

Any good system will have all those prementioned attributes in it. A style however, is the distinct "flair" of doing things. That's what people are missing and that's what they're looking for. They want to see the vertical punches, the tan, bong, fook in motion. They want to see wing chun footwork, and all that sort of stuff.

That's why this discussing is going on. Though I agree with the comment above, the closer you get to the top of mountain, paths become more scarce and start to converge, I also have seen where the style is retained in the system...
Yes Mon . . .:)

[duende]

Absolutely. But here is where the discord lies with most people: they're looking for the "style".

Any good system will have all those prementioned attributes in it. A style however, is the distinct "flair" of doing things. That's what people are missing and that's what they're looking for. They want to see the vertical punches, the tan, bong, fook in motion. They want to see wing chun footwork, and all that sort of stuff.

That's why this discussing is going on. Though I agree with the comment above, the closer you get to the top of mountain, paths become more scarce and start to converge, I also have seen where the style is retained in the system...


People too often judge things by shapes and techniques. If they don't see a Tan sau in the mix, then somehow that translates for them as not being WC.

When in fact the real beauty of WC is in understanding and expressing WC's core principles.... Principles based on facing and range (TIME), occupation of space and key positioning (SPACE), and structural energy, rooting, and leverage (ENERGY)

Oddly enough, it is this same shape and technique thinking by certain "WC Experts" on this board that makes communication and sharing so difficult at times.

Anyways... nice post.

[Phil Redmond]

People too often judge things by shapes and techniques. If they don't see a Tan sau in the mix, then somehow that translates for them as not being WC.

When in fact the real beauty of WC is in understanding and expressing WC's core principles.... Principles based on facing and range (TIME), occupation of space and key positioning (SPACE), and structural energy, rooting, and leverage (ENERGY)

Oddly enough, it is this same shape and technique thinking by certain "WC Experts" on this board that makes communication and sharing so difficult at times.

Anyways... nice post.
Exactly, just like when WSL was told that the knee he used in a fight wasn't WC. He said he used the closest weapon to the closet target. To me WC is one tool in my toolbox. I've studied many different arts in my career. Should I not use something that is effective because people who don't fight make comments?

[Pacman]

im not even looking for what I think is WC style at this point, im looking for examples of what they call WC in action. im not saying its a bad thing, but when a claim is made "here look at our WC in action" and i see none im just questioning things.

like ive said the first time this video was posted. congrats to everyone involved for their success.




Reaction to pressure & positioning, if keeping with the principles of WC should be such that they are maintaining their space and hitting as opportunities arise, not focusing on chasing hands of course, using angled stepping to move into more advantages positions (angles of punching), and using your own attacks as simultaneous defense (cutting punches).

i did not see much angled stepping. i saw him going straight in. i also didnt see any simultaneous attack/defense. i saw him walking straight toward the guy and throwing looping punches because the other guy was sitting there tired and covering up

if you can help me see this, please let me know where in the video is a good place to look



The forward pressure would come from--most evidently anyway--in the idea of "escort what leaves and rush in at loss of contact". Answering an attack, sticking with the opponent, and rushing in when they retreat.

IMO there is a difference between the wing chun concept of keeping pressure on the opponent and simply being aggressive at times and charging in.

i saw aaron bobbing and weaving and covering up at times (putting no pressure on the opponent) and then going straight towards the guy to attack (no sticking)

i at times cover too and back away when I am caught in a bad situation, but im just saying that i saw no examples of what you stated


Bingo! And that's why it doesn't look that much different from other standup styles when it is done in an effective manner.

no, he said any style could implement these principles. he is not saying that every effective fighter does do that.

[Phil Redmond]

. . . . i did not see much angled stepping. i saw him going straight in. i also didnt see any simultaneous attack/defense. i saw him walking straight toward the guy and throwing looping punches because the other guy was sitting there tired and covering up . . .
I've seen boxing matches won where there was not even one uppercut used, where there were no body shots, etc. Does that disqualify it as boxing? I don't know your history so please take no offense, but I must ask if you've ever competed.

[Pacman]

I've seen boxing matches won where there was not even one uppercut used, where there were no body shots, etc. Does that disqualify it as boxing? I don't know your history so please take no offense, but I must ask if you've ever competed.

no offense taken. im not emotionally attached to this discussion at all. i have nothing against anyone here, im just making an observation

ur example is a bit different. im not saying he is not a WC fighter or he doesnt train in "real" WC. Im just saying I saw nothing implemented in that fight that goes along with WC tactics

what separates wing chun from other standup styles are certain tactics and movements. i personally didnt see any of these. thats all im saying. if someone can point out a point in the video where this happens (can be something general like protecting his center) then please help me out. i have an open mind.

in your example is the boxer winning the match by only throwing jump spin kicks? if so, then no hes not using any boxing. otherwise if he did something in the realm of boxing then yes he is qualified as using some boxing.

with regards to having ever competed i will send you a PM if its that important to you. my background is completely and utterly non-consequential to this discussion. if i were trying to recommend a way to train or what to do in a fight this would be relevant, but in this case it makes no difference whether i am a UFC champ or a couch potato because the facts are the facts.

[grasshopper 2.0]

This is what Wing Chun looks like when it is trained and fought full contact in an MMA environment:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gR3beL5CWo

A good example of how WC should be used against another trained multi-discipline fighter.


awesome! so does this put an end to questions like "show me that WC works?"

[SAAMAG]

No worries man. Well I took a look at THIS video to see if Aaron was doing what they talk about in the video series. Knowing what to look for here's what I saw:

In terms of direct wc technique I saw their version of lan sao, I saw the square body facing, I saw what could be deemed biu ma, the hook punches could be catagorized as the hooking punch from biu gee, the huen on the neck combined with the uppercuts is indeed wc (you even see that in ip mans movie scenes).

On the flip side I also saw overhands as you stated, jabs, and pure bjj/mma type stuff as well. So all in all I'd say he used wing chun within the context of the fight, but it wasn't completely a "wing chun" fight per say.

A pure wc stylist would fight his fight, not play into the other guys fight (I.e grapple when he could have continued the standup / wc), nor would he use bjj just because the venue is mma.

Then again...if you understand the concept...all else is just energy and motion. There's no right or wrong...only what works and what doesn't.

[bennyvt]

i think it comes down to why certain things are used. Like the hook punches, were they done for a vt reason. Ie closest distance, going around a block etc. Or was he just throwing hooks. Using vt is about using the most simple technique to make the most damage. Not doing something them justifing it by saying but they do hooks in bj. I watched the orrh video series and most was ok but alot was bjj etc justified using vt ideas. There is on gulliten in bj. Even the guy i learn shoot off said it was just bjj. Don't get me wrong, nothing wrong with mixing stuff to be a complete fighter but don't call a rear naked choke a vt move, way have been the best way of beating him but it wasn't vt.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Exactly, just like when WSL was told that the knee he used in a fight wasn't WC. He said he used the closest weapon to the closet target. To me WC is one tool in my toolbox. I've studied many different arts in my career. Should I not use something that is effective because people who don't fight make comments?

I don't think anyone is criticizing Aaron or Allen for that matter. We are criticizing Dales erroneous assessment of Aaron's performance. As far as I am concerned no one should have to apologize for winning a fight. I am sure that they are all competent WC men as well.

Also, I tend to take the view that classical Wing Chun is a pretty narrow set of skills that should be supported by additional training. Having said that, I believe at some point the "other stuff" can dominate over the WC. If that is someone's ultimate expression then so be it but let's be real about what it is.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Seems to be no evidence of any of them fighting full contact... what a surprise. :rolleyes:



As far as I can tell, you don't have an extensive documented record. Concerning the ranges of combat that are central to the WC forum, you have zero credentials. You fancy yourself a fighter but as far as I can tell you just had a few fights.

[sanjuro_ronin]

WC has a very specific skillset, one that makes it look like WC.
Of course since it is applied VS WC in training it only "looks" like WC when it is VS WC.
Other systems don't have this issue because their skillset is more "natural" and less "distinctive".
Aaron's WC, ie: Roberts WC is an excellent, modern version of WC, it takes all that WC is - principles and concepts, and applies it in a modern environment.
It's look is irrelevant because it looks like what it HAS to look like under whatever conditions it is being used.
Fact is, it is effective and get's the job done and has the key characteristics of good WC:
Simple, Direct, Effective.

[t_niehoff]

there are lots of videos out there. if the only evidence you consider valid is winning an MMA fight, that is another thing.

What I consider good evidence is seeing someone able to make what they do -- WCK or whatever -- work against good, skilled fighters. Isn't this the standard for any competitive activity? How can you say someone is a good chessplayer or a good tennis player or good wrestler? That they can hold their own against good, proven skilled people.

[t_niehoff]

I've seen boxing matches won where there was not even one uppercut used, where there were no body shots, etc. Does that disqualify it as boxing? I don't know your history so please take no offense, but I must ask if you've ever competed.

This sort of misses the point.

Boxers may not use every single move in their arsenal of movement in a particular match, BUT all their movement in any match is all boxing movement. The move in their boxing matches just like they train to move.

[t_niehoff]

People too often judge things by shapes and techniques. If they don't see a Tan sau in the mix, then somehow that translates for them as not being WC.

When in fact the real beauty of WC is in understanding and expressing WC's core principles.... Principles based on facing and range (TIME), occupation of space and key positioning (SPACE), and structural energy, rooting, and leverage (ENERGY)

Oddly enough, it is this same shape and technique thinking by certain "WC Experts" on this board that makes communication and sharing so difficult at times.

Anyways... nice post.

This is all nonsense.

In the martial arts, we train to move in certain ways to accomplish certain tasks. If you don't practice doing this (here is the task, now practice doing it), you won't be able to move that way to accomplish your goals. Having a principle in mind won't translate to good movement -- you need to practice the movement itself. If you practice some movement but then when fighting use another movement, how is this good training?

You could say that tennis is really just "understanding and expressing tennis' core principles.... Principles based on facing and range (TIME), occupation of space and key positioning (SPACE), and structural energy, rooting, and leverage (ENERGY)" too. But that's all bullsh1t. Looking at tennis from thatn perspective won't help you develop as a player. It's not just that you do these things but HOW (physically) you do them, whether you are accomplishing your objectives, if you are able to use your tools (techniques), etc.

A forehand drive is a part/tool of tennis, just as a tan sao is a part/tool of WCK.

[Frost]

When WC works successfully (at least against someone who is skilled, conditioned, and knows something about striking, groundfighting, and takedowns), it will look pretty much like you saw in the clip. Changing the rules and getting rid of the equipment will not change anything at all. The old no-rules vale tudo fights pretty much showed that fighting looks pretty much the same when it is trained multi-discipline fighter vs. trained multi-discipline fighter.

Theoretical, fantasy, non-fighters who have never gone full contact against another person with multi-discipline skills will probably never understand this, however.

true very true i remember the old no rules days and the fights looked exactly like they do today, only much wilder and less skilled

[Frost]

there are lots of videos out there. if the only evidence you consider valid is winning an MMA fight, that is another thing.

really? not being an a$s but where are they, because outside of alot of demos and guys showing how it should be done no one has posted any actual fight footage (MMA, shanshu, street fighting or even full contact sparring) showing real wing chun in action that people agree is real wing chun and a good example of the style in use perhaps you can?

[Frost]

This is my point. It is a ruleset and an environment. In order to compete there everyone has to adopt and adapt. They end up with the same ruleset so they pretty much end up having to use the same fighting techniques and methods as everyone else. I can not and probably never could compete in the ring, as it is with most everyone else. We have exceptional individuals that shine there, and a whole bunch of other people that really want to. A gung fu system is designed to be used in a way as to make you equal to others as best as possible. In the ruleset environment of MMA you also have to be extremely fit in order to compete with any real expectations. Just look at the top fighters in MMA today. Would you have any prayer of a chance in beating any one of them? No. Most of us wouldn't. Some of them got caught shooting steriods to make them stronger. This is the key with MMA. Learning and skill are following far behind physical training and strength training. In order to get a fellow into an arm bar, kemora? You have to be stronger than he is in order to force the arm into position and hold it. And if you are not strong enough it won't happen, or he just might force his arm out of it. Just look at all the top guys. They are all well above average in what they do. Everyone else is just wishing. You can not reasonably expect any none sport fighting system to be able to do anything in such an environment.

My lord do you really believe all this, you need to think through your sentences before posting them this is wrong on so many levels it’s not even funny :eek:

[t_niehoff]

My lord do you really believe all this, you need to think through your sentences before posting them this is wrong on so many levels it’s not even funny :eek:

You have just expressed my sentiments for 97% of all posts on this forum!

[Knifefighter]

really? not being an a$s but where are they, because outside of alot of demos and guys showing how it should be done no one has posted any actual fight footage (MMA, shanshu, street fighting or even full contact sparring) showing real wing chun in action that people agree is real wing chun and a good example of the style in use perhaps you can?

I think he said the clips of Phil's guys are good examples of WC being used.

[Knifefighter]

My lord do you really believe all this, you need to think through your sentences before posting them this is wrong on so many levels it’s not even funny :eek:

You pretty much have to disregard everything that guy posts because he is clearly posting from a fantasy, made-up world view.

[sanjuro_ronin]

My lord do you really believe all this, you need to think through your sentences before posting them this is wrong on so many levels it’s not even funny :eek:

Obviously LCP has chain blasted the correct and shattered your little glass world of MMA !!!
Don't hate !!
:D

[t_niehoff]

You pretty much have to disregard everything that guy posts because he is clearly posting from a fantasy, made-up world view.

I will say it again -- You have just expressed my sentiments for 97% of all posts on this forum!

[Frost]

Obviously LCP has chain blasted the correct and shattered your little glass world of MMA !!!
Don't hate !!
:D

i have never seen so much rubbish in one post before it is mesing eith my mind thats true:eek:

[sanjuro_ronin]

i have never seen so much rubbish in one post before it is mesing eith my mind thats true:eek:

You need to get out in the WC forums more !

[duende]

From the Chi Sau thread....



I get dynamic weight training. I am always to striving to get a person's weight on top of me, so I can manipulate it, guide it, control it, throw it and set up linked strikes from the manipulation.

WCK is based on indexing for tools - that is whatever fits in the gates at that moment, given the time and position relative to the opponent.

There are no fixed stances, only balance. There is no form/shape, only body structure in the moment. There are no hand techniques, only dealing with energy, which creates these moments in time that people call techniques.

Sound familiar anyone?? Sure sounds like an interpetation of HFY Time, Space, and Energy concept to me!

But then we get the back track...



You could say that tennis is really just "understanding and expressing tennis' core principles.... Principles based on facing and range (TIME), occupation of space and key positioning (SPACE), and structural energy, rooting, and leverage (ENERGY)" too. But that's all bullsh1t. Looking at tennis from thatn perspective won't help you develop as a player. It's not just that you do these things but HOW (physically) you do them, whether you are accomplishing your objectives, if you are able to use your tools (techniques), etc.

A forehand drive is a part/tool of tennis, just as a tan sao is a part/tool of WCK.

Come on guys... this good cop, bad cop routine is getting really old.

[SAAMAG]

i think it comes down to why certain things are used. Like the hook punches, were they done for a vt reason. Ie closest distance, going around a block etc. Or was he just throwing hooks. Using vt is about using the most simple technique to make the most damage. Not doing something them justifing it by saying but they do hooks in bj. I watched the orrh video series and most was ok but alot was bjj etc justified using vt ideas. There is on gulliten in bj. Even the guy i learn shoot off said it was just bjj. Don't get me wrong, nothing wrong with mixing stuff to be a complete fighter but don't call a rear naked choke a vt move, way have been the best way of beating him but it wasn't vt.

That's why I worded it the way I did. I would add that the strikes chosen should be those that are the most economical in terms of risk. Biggest payout with the least amount of risk.

A hook punch is described as a "tight C". I've also heard it called a "tight L" as it's still a straight punch--just coming from the side.

Within a WC mindset hook punches (if keeping in line with all its guidelines) should only be thrown when at that particular moment in time it is more economical and logical. So for example like you said going around a strong block instead of trying to move it. If someone has a much stronger arm than you are able to manipulate--what's more economical--trying to unsuccessfully slap it around to punch directly through the tunnel or just punch around it? A similar example would be because he's covering up through the middle and your arm is on the outside--the most natural and economical punch is the hook.

So you use the punch as you see fit to reap the benefits with as little risk as possible. It's right there in the forms--so why not use it to its maximum potential? When I spar, I don't sit there and pummel someone with chain punches while they're covering. I vary the punches, hit different targets, from different angles...why? Because it's the smarter thing to do. You keep throwing chain punches the other guys gonna know that and adapt very quickly.

As to the rest of it, yea, I agree that any grappling is a byproduct of their mma / bjj training. Otherwise WC would have been doing that stuff all along. It's not there's been an epiphany of the wing chun forms, its that some of the stuff is (by a looong stretch) being related to wing chun's forms.

Kinda like how people try to fit all the stuff going on in the world to prophecies told by people thousands of years ago. It could fit, but it doesn't mean that it was meant to.

[chusauli]

Duende,

I write my own stuff - not play good cop or bad cop. And my stuff is not an interpretation of HFY. Your view is this.

We live in a 4-D world: height, width, depth and time, so its all slivers of reality, (perhaps this is branding, too).

Your TSE theories seem to be Wave Theory related to what Einstein postulated and a cross between Buddhist theories.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Duende,

I write my own stuff - not play good cop or bad cop. And my stuff is not an interpretation of HFY. Your view is this.

We live in a 4-D world: height, width, depth and time, so its all slivers of reality, (perhaps this is branding, too).

Your TSE theories seem to be Wave Theory related to what Einstein postulated and a cross between Buddhist theories.

And if you did borrow.... no one should care.

[Pacman]

What I consider good evidence is seeing someone able to make what they do -- WCK or whatever -- work against good, skilled fighters. Isn't this the standard for any competitive activity? How can you say someone is a good chessplayer or a good tennis player or good wrestler? That they can hold their own against good, proven skilled people.

im not saying that. ive seen it and experienced it. many others here have too, but the only way you'll believe it is if you see it happen on spike TV. i understand your skepticism of others, and thats fine, but you have to acknowledge that just because you havent seen it in UFC doesnt mean that its bull****. there are other factors

if the gracies had not made their BJJ so public, we probably would not know much about it.

[Pacman]

**** you just insulted your sifu. what disrespect!


From the Chi Sau thread....




Sound familiar anyone?? Sure sounds like an interpetation of HFY Time, Space, and Energy concept to me!

But then we get the back track...



Come on guys... this good cop, bad cop routine is getting really old.

[Lee Chiang Po]

WOW!!! Talk about clueless.


Are you refering to you or me? I know that you are an expert on this subject since you actually had a fight, even if you got whipped. And I have seen what you consider fighting skills. Of course I must be absolutely clueless since I was not able to see any remote resemblence of Wing Chun in the video you used to make your point. Did you have someone tell you that it did, or did you actually make that assumption yourself?
I think what you are trying to do here is compare yourself with some of the top fighters of MMA, and I assume that it is supposed to in some way give your opinions credance, but you are not an MMA fighter in any sense of the word, and none of your opinions carry any more weight than mine or anyone elses. When you post videos such as this you need to except what comments are made without your usual flattery. Otherwise give up the effort or find something with a bit more convincing visuals.

[Pacman]

if you break it down like that, anything can be considered WC. i can say that anyone who throws a hook is using biu gee moves...anyone who grabs another persons head is using a huen sau...anyone that steps forward can be said to use biu ma.

watch I can do ths with anything:


now these guys have really taken their WC to a new level

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLz-sl1ZfBs

they use what could be called the WC hook kick, but sometimes kick to the head with it too. i also saw some front kicks and sidekicks too. they dont use their heel and thrust but that is because they are using WC in a Taekwondo context, so they have to mix it up with spinning back kicks etc. and adjust for the situation

but dont worry all the energy in spacetime is conserved according to the law of conservation of energy so that its only transformed between WC energy and TKD energy. dont worry!

notice the straight line agression? when one attacks, the other rushes in. thats a great example of "loy lau hui sung"! when they fall down over each other, thats a good example of "sinking" energy too

this is real good WC in a TKD context. awesome job guys.

this is how real WC works in a TKD context!

come on. this is sad. congrats to them, but iwth all the complaints of FANTASY from terrence and the other MMA fanboys, lets not fantasize about what is WC


No worries man. Well I took a look at THIS video to see if Aaron was doing what they talk about in the video series. Knowing what to look for here's what I saw:

In terms of direct wc technique I saw their version of lan sao, I saw the square body facing, I saw what could be deemed biu ma, the hook punches could be catagorized as the hooking punch from biu gee, the huen on the neck combined with the uppercuts is indeed wc (you even see that in ip mans movie scenes).

On the flip side I also saw overhands as you stated, jabs, and pure bjj/mma type stuff as well. So all in all I'd say he used wing chun within the context of the fight, but it wasn't completely a "wing chun" fight per say.

A pure wc stylist would fight his fight, not play into the other guys fight (I.e grapple when he could have continued the standup / wc), nor would he use bjj just because the venue is mma.

Then again...if you understand the concept...all else is just energy and motion. There's no right or wrong...only what works and what doesn't.

[duende]

Duende,

I write my own stuff - not play good cop or bad cop. And my stuff is not an interpretation of HFY. Your view is this.

We live in a 4-D world: height, width, depth and time, so its all slivers of reality, (perhaps this is branding, too).

Your TSE theories seem to be Wave Theory related to what Einstein postulated and a cross between Buddhist theories.

Robert,

I simply wrote... "Principles based on facing and range (TIME), occupation of space and key positioning (SPACE), and structural energy, rooting, and leverage (ENERGY)"

Does this sound like wave theory?? Or Buddhism for that matter??

It's physics 101 and how it applies to strategy in combat. Plain and simple.

Does that sound like branding to you? Or only when others beside yourself express these understandings??

I'm not here to attack you or anything like that. I'm here to share understandings with my fellow WC practitioners.

But attacks by your student Terence (that are obviously contrary to your teachings) make this forum a drag.

[t_niehoff]

im not saying that. ive seen it and experienced it. many others here have too, but the only way you'll believe it is if you see it happen on spike TV.


People can convince themselves of all kinds of things. My point is that the way to tell whether something is sound of not -- whether our training or some technique or whatever -- is ONLY by getting in and mixing it up against GOOD fighters.

Lots of people claim to do that, but for some mysterious reason (sarcasm alert) they can never show it. It's like Bigfoot, they claim it exists but they just can't seem to produce one. ;)



i understand your skepticism of others, and thats fine, but you have to acknowledge that just because you havent seen it in UFC doesnt mean that its bull****. there are other factors


We know what works in fighting, we can see it for ourselves by just watching MMA. The evidence for that is right before your eyes.

You, however, are making the claim that there is "some other way" of fighting that works just as well as what MMA people do, right? Yet, you can't produce ANY evidence to support your claim.

Claims that can't be supported by evidence are bullsh1t.



if the gracies had not made their BJJ so public, we probably would not know much about it.

So, is WCK not public?

[SAAMAG]

if you break it down like that, anything can be considered WC. i can say that anyone who throws a hook is using biu gee moves...anyone who grabs another persons head is using a huen sau...anyone that steps forward can be said to use biu ma.

watch I can do ths with anything:



come on. this is sad. congrats to them, but iwth all the complaints of FANTASY from terrence and the other MMA fanboys, lets not fantasize about what is WC

Sooo first you ask politely for someone to discuss what might be considered to be wing chun based on the CSL perspective, and then when that's done...you tell everyone to get real.

Whether you like it or not, it is what it is. I tried to describe what I saw from their perspective based on what I know from their video series. Hell, I could be wrong too! But from my limited knowledge of what they do, and the more intimate knowledge of what I do, those were my assessments. :D

As the saying goes...don't take what you're told as truth in your WC, go out and test it. You will find your own iteration of wing chun then. Wing chun is a tool to be mastered. It should not be your master.

[Ultimatewingchun]

It's amazing to me how much "we do that too" is going on here - instead of just recognizing things for what they are: elements of wing chun crosstrained with elements of boxing, kickboxing, MT, wrestling/grappling, etc...

is the way to go.

Period.

And then there's some people on this thread who may have said in the past that they don't need to add any boxing type moves/footwork (or what have you) to their wing chun to make it effective in an mma/real fighting setting...

and now, not only are they on the bandwagon for an mma approach - but are doing revisionist history about how they may have felt about "how complete" their wing chun was...as recently as a week ago.

And then we hear things like "there really is no functional" pak, lop, bong, garn, etc. - within an mma (real fighting) setting. Oh, really?

Let's just call it as it is, shall we?

What Aaron (and guys like Alan Orr) are doing is A version of wing chun that works pretty well - and it's mixed with elements of other fighting styles, (ie.- a guillotine is a guillotine, not a bil jee move).

There's no shame in adding to your wing chun - it shows that your're smart.

And there's nothing lasting to be gained by saying that you're not adding to your wing chun when clearly you are.

And there's certainly no benefit (since your previous posts can easily be looked up in the archives) in saying that you believed in crosstraining your wing chun all along.

So good for Alan, Aaron, and the rest of those guys...They're doing some good things with their version of wing chun - and what they've added to it.

And as time goes on, I suspect other people within the wing chun world will be doing similar things with their version of wing chun...and what they've added/crosstrained into it.

And it's about time, imo.

[SAAMAG]

Dude who are you talking about that's changing from a purist to a cross-trainer?

[Ultimatewingchun]

Let's put it this way: not you.

[Knifefighter]

Are you refering to you or me? I know that you are an expert on this subject since you actually had a fight, even if you got whipped. And I have seen what you consider fighting skills. Of course I must be absolutely clueless since I was not able to see any remote resemblence of Wing Chun in the video you used to make your point. Did you have someone tell you that it did, or did you actually make that assumption yourself?
I think what you are trying to do here is compare yourself with some of the top fighters of MMA, and I assume that it is supposed to in some way give your opinions credance, but you are not an MMA fighter in any sense of the word, and none of your opinions carry any more weight than mine or anyone elses. When you post videos such as this you need to except what comments are made without your usual flattery. Otherwise give up the effort or find something with a bit more convincing visuals.
I'm not comparing myself to top MMA fighters. They train full time, do that for their living, and, as a general rule are about 25 years younger than I am. However, I do have a bit of experience in that realm. You, on the other hand, attempting to compare yourself to me is 20 times more ludicrous than me attempting to compare myself to them. It is clear by every post you have ever made that you are the epitome of the theoretical, fantasy-world, pretend, non-fighter.

[m1k3]

It's amazing to me how much "we do that too" is going on here - instead of just recognizing things for what they are: elements of wing chun crosstrained with elements of boxing, kickboxing, MT, wrestling/grappling, etc...

is the way to go.

Period.

And then there's some people on this thread who may have said in the past that they don't need to add any boxing type moves/footwork (or what have you) to their wing chun to make it effective in an mma/real fighting setting...

and now, not only are they on the bandwagon for an mma approach - but are doing revisionist history about how they may have felt about "how complete" their wing chun was...as recently as a week ago.

And then we hear things like "there really is no functional" pak, lop, bong, garn, etc. - within an mma (real fighting) setting. Oh, really?

Let's just call it as it is, shall we?

What Aaron (and guys like Alan Orr) are doing is A version of wing chun that works pretty well - and it's mixed with elements of other fighting styles, ie.- a guillotine is a guillotine, not a bil jee move).

There's no shame in adding to your wing chun - it shows that your're smart.

And there's nothing lasting to be gained by saying that you're not adding to your wing chun when clearly you are.

And there's certainly no benefit (since your previous posts can easily be looked up in the archives) in saying that you believed in crosstraining your wing chun all along.

So good for Alan, Aaron, and the rest of those guys...They're doing some good things with their version of wing chun - and what they've added to it.

And as time goes on, I suspect other people within the wing chun world will be doing similar things with their version of wing chun...and what they've added/crosstrained into it.

And it's about time, imo.

Stands up and starts clapping.

[chusauli]

Robert,

I simply wrote... "Principles based on facing and range (TIME), occupation of space and key positioning (SPACE), and structural energy, rooting, and leverage (ENERGY)"

Does this sound like wave theory?? Or Buddhism for that matter??

It's physics 101 and how it applies to strategy in combat. Plain and simple.

Does that sound like branding to you? Or only when others beside yourself express these understandings??

I'm not here to attack you or anything like that. I'm here to share understandings with my fellow WC practitioners.

But attacks by your student Terence (that are obviously contrary to your teachings) make this forum a drag.

Alex,

I am referring to myself branding. I think you are mistaken. I have no monopoly on truth or expression.

T does his thing, I do mine. I am not responsible for his opinion, that is all I want to say.

TSE is Wave Theory and is also discussed in Taoism and Buddhism. As I said, its all 4D.

[t_niehoff]

It's amazing to me how much "we do that too" is going on here - instead of just recognizing things for what they are: elements of wing chun crosstrained with elements of boxing, kickboxing, MT, wrestling/grappling, etc...

is the way to go.

Period.


It's really simple:

1) If you want to be a well-rounded fighter then you need to cross-train.

2) You are only as good as your sparring partners.

3) Theories about what works or doesn't work is bullsh1t.



And then there's some people on this thread who may have said in the past that they don't need to add any boxing type moves/footwork (or what have you) to their wing chun to make it effective in an mma/real fighting setting...


Boxing, MT, WCK, etc. are various skill sets. If you practice MT, do you also need to box or do WCK to have a decent stand-up game? No. It's the same with WCK -- it provides you a method of fighting and the skills to implement that method. You don't NEED to supplement it with boxing or MT.

However, you do need to train against good boxers and MT fighters, to try practice using your WCK against them.

But, if someone wants to mix in boxing or MT, that's fine -- it's like a boxer who adds MT to his game.



and now, not only are they on the bandwagon for an mma approach - but are doing revisionist history about how they may have felt about "how complete" their wing chun was...as recently as a week ago.


"Complete" is total nonsense.

What people should do instead of theorizing is get out and do it, and see for themselves. Go to a good MMA school and spar -- that will show you what YOU need to do.

There are people who do that, and then there are people who don't but theorize.



And then we hear things like "there really is no functional" pak, lop, bong, garn, etc. - within an mma (real fighting) setting. Oh, really?


Can YOU do them? Do YOU go to a good MMA school, spar, and consistently pull these things off? If not, then your opinion is bullsh1t, it is theory.



Let's just call it as it is, shall we?


I always do.



What Aaron (and guys like Alan Orr) are doing is A version of wing chun that works pretty well - and it's mixed with elements of other fighting styles, ie.- a guillotine is a guillotine, not a bil jee move).

There's no shame in adding to your wing chun - it shows that your're smart.

And there's nothing lasting to be gained by saying that you're not adding to your wing chun when clearly you are.

And there's certainly no benefit (since your previous posts can easily be looked up in the archives) in saying that you believed in crosstraining your wing chun all along.

So good for Alan, Aaron, and the rest of those guys...They're doing some good things with their version of wing chun - and what they've added to it.

And as time goes on, I suspect other people within the wing chun world will be doing similar things with their version of wing chun...and what they've added/crosstrained into it.

And it's about time, imo.

Alan and his guys are doing what Robert tells all of his students -- let application be your sifu.

[t_niehoff]

T does his thing, I do mine. I am not responsible for his opinion, that is all I want to say.


Robert, I think some people are so caught up in the TMA culture of "group think", and so used to having their views given to them by their "sifu", that they find it difficult to understand that this is not how you (and I) approach things.

[SAAMAG]

They don't find it difficult, they find it monotonous and annoying that you only know how to say one thing (regardless of whether they agree or not).

[duende]

Robert, I think some people are so caught up in the TMA culture of "group think", and so used to having their views given to them by their "sifu", that they find it difficult to understand that this is not how you (and I) approach things.

More attacks... Nice.

How about just admitting that as a student of CSL your post is clueless and contradictory to the teachings of Robert. Or at least those I quoted.

As this is a thread about CSL WC and it's usage in MMA. It would seem logical that you would have something insightful to contribute... But obviously you do not.

[HumbleWCGuy]

They don't find it difficult, they find it monotonous and annoying that you only know how to say one thing (regardless of whether they agree or not).

When did the idea of heavy moderation stop? It seemed that Dale and T were on a one way ticket out of town, but suddenly it's vapidity at it's best once again.

[sanjuro_ronin]

What exactly do Terrence and Dale do that you believe warrants banning?
Do they lie?
Do they make false claims?
Do they harrase posters?
DO they use profanity?

[Ultimatewingchun]

I don't read Terence Niehoff's posts anymore (he's on my IGNORE LIST)...but I can fully understand the sentiments to ban him - as he's an endless pit of gutless mockery, redundancy, double standards, and out-and-out bull5hit...

and he's hijacked and derailed COUNTLESS threads over the last 5 years or so.

But I suspect the moderator(s) won't ban him unless he does start using profanity or what have you.

So imo the IGNORE LIST is the best way to go.
.........................

As for Dale Frank, he's a troll, through-and-through ...waaay more often than not - but one with some serious martial arts credentials. So I've come to believe that to ignore him (small "i") is the best way to go when he puts on the troll hat.

[HumbleWCGuy]

What exactly do Terrence and Dale do that you believe warrants banning?
Do they lie?
Do they make false claims?
Do they harrase posters?
DO they use profanity?

Terrence doesn't use profanity. Both practice conversational terrorism to ensure that nothing worthwhile ever gets discussed. I would call that harassment. Conversational terrorism involves a number of tactics which include making a conscious decision to "misunderstand," other posters to continue the conversation. Constantly posting the same drivel day in and day out when it is not appropriate to do so might be termed as flooding.

Dale certainly harasses posters outright and he never contributes to intelligent discussion. Most if not all of Dale's posts devolve into senseless name calling. Dale is just here to call people clueless theoretical fighters and to drop challenges. Dale has nothing but disdain for WC and it's practitioners and only comes here to malign and insult unless you worship him. Any attempt at reasonable discussion results in an insult from Dale.

[JPinAZ]

Just for clarification


And if you did borrow.... no one should care.

Agreed. Unless it's followed with "I write my own stuff " :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

I would suggest you follow Victor's advice.
Nothing that thy have done would warrant a ban, considering far worse crap that has happened and by anonymous posters to boot.

This is an internet discussion forum, if you don't like someone;s views you say, I disagree, make YOUR point and IF it has merits, it will stand on its own.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Just for clarification



Agreed. Unless it's followed with "I write my own stuff " :)

Well put. ...

[Ultimatewingchun]

Terrence doesn't use profanity. Both practice conversational terrorism to ensure that nothing worthwhile ever gets discussed. I would call that harassment. Conversational terrorism involves a number of tactics which include making a conscious decision to "misunderstand," other posters to continue the conversation. Constantly posting the same drivel day in and day out when it is not appropriate to do so might be termed as flooding.

Dale certainly harasses posters outright and he never contributes to intelligent discussion. Most if not all of Dale's posts devolve into senseless name calling. Dale is just here to call people clueless theoretical fighters and to drop challenges. Dale has nothing but disdain for WC and it's practitioners and only comes here to malign and insult unless you worship him. Any attempt at reasonable discussion results in an insult from Dale.

***HARD to argue with that. I think we should shoot the both of them.

And then it'll be a lot easier to i g n o r e them.

:rolleyes:;):cool:

[t_niehoff]

More attacks... Nice.

How about just admitting that as a student of CSL your post is clueless and contradictory to the teachings of Robert. Or at least those I quoted.

As this is a thread about CSL WC and it's usage in MMA. It would seem logical that you would have something insightful to contribute... But obviously you do not.

Funny, you accuse me and Robert of "good cop bad cop" OUT OF THE BLUE, and then when I respond, I am the one attacking!

The point of my post is that I don't parrot Robert's teachings -- as you parrot your instructor's. Application (fighting) is my sifu (teacher). As Bob Dylan sang, "Don't follow leaders."

My dad taught me how to play chess, but I became a chessmaster on my own, through my own hard work. My views on chess and WCK are my own, based on my own experience. I am not constrained by my teachers or limited to their views.

Try to grasp this: CSL WCK is just a curriclulm, Robert's way of teaching the fundamentals of WCK -- to talk about it's usage in MMA is silly. You don't "use" a curriculum in fighting. WCK is WCK.

If you or anyone wants to learn how to use WCK in MMA, then go train at a MMA school. If you don't do that, you will never learn. And people who talk about it (using WCK in MMA) without having done it are simply spewing nonsense that they really know nothing about.

[Knifefighter]

Dale certainly harasses posters outright and he never contributes to intelligent discussion. Most if not all of Dale's posts devolve into senseless name calling. Dale is just here to call people clueless theoretical fighters and to drop challenges. Dale has nothing but disdain for WC and it's practitioners and only comes here to malign and insult unless you worship him. Any attempt at reasonable discussion results in an insult from Dale.
If you go back and look at my posting history, almost every time that I have harassed someone, it is the result of that person putting someone else or some other style down with completely clueless "facts (ie, the clueless LCP, who spewed his ignorance that MMA fighters are only good because of drugs and conditioning and your ignorance in stating that Alan's guy was not able to use "real" WC effectively against a skilled opponent).

Often times, I'm actually sticking up for people from your very style. This thread is no different. You guys just get pizzed because I don't let you get away with it. If anything you should be banned for your stupid statements that a WC guy who has actually fought doesn't know how to use WC.

[t_niehoff]

Terrence doesn't use profanity. Both practice conversational terrorism to ensure that nothing worthwhile ever gets discussed.


What you call "worthwhile", I call fantasy.



I would call that harassment. Conversational terrorism involves a number of tactics which include making a conscious decision to "misunderstand," other posters to continue the conversation. Constantly posting the same drivel day in and day out when it is not appropriate to do so might be termed as flooding.


So much of what is posted here is nonsense, bullsh1t, fantasy, etc. and so I can't help posting the "same drivel" to expose it as such.

[anerlich]

Dale has real experience and is highly regarded on a number of other forums. I feel he is a valuable forum member.

Terence is like Dale minus the experience, insights, intelligence, charisma and charm or any other useful or redeeming qualities, other than bringing to the forum a huge balloon of pomposity and arrogance, which is fun for target practice, though it gets boring because it becomes all too easy and repetitive.

Still, he's done nothing that deserves a ban, though he does deserve copious derision, mainly so his head doesn't swell to the point where he can't fit through standard doorways. For your own good, T.

:D

[Pacman]

So, is WCK not public?

my point is that if the gracie had not decided to compete in the UFC, and stuck to competing in bjj tournaments, most people here would not know anything about bjj. and that fact would not take away from its effectiveness

so you cant intelligently conclude that because you have not seen it done in an MMA tournament that its useless

[Pacman]

Sooo first you ask politely for someone to discuss what might be considered to be wing chun based on the CSL perspective, and then when that's done...you tell everyone to get real.

Whether you like it or not, it is what it is. I tried to describe what I saw from their perspective based on what I know from their video series. Hell, I could be wrong too! But from my limited knowledge of what they do, and the more intimate knowledge of what I do, those were my assessments. :D

As the saying goes...don't take what you're told as truth in your WC, go out and test it. You will find your own iteration of wing chun then. Wing chun is a tool to be mastered. It should not be your master.

yes, i wanted to discuss this, and im discussing. you made a point, i made a counterpoint. you can feel free to retort my opinions i have no problem with that.

[Pacman]

im glad someone is calling it what it is. WC has already changed over time in the past--people have added to it or taken away from it.

Given that WC is in large part concepts it is not surprising that different WC lineages can be so different.

i think its ok for alan and his guys to say that they have added to or changed WC to suit their needs, but to say that a guillotine is a Biu Jee move or that grabbing a guys head is a huen sau is a disservice by blurring definitions and only confuses the already confused WC masses.



It's amazing to me how much "we do that too" is going on here - instead of just recognizing things for what they are: elements of wing chun crosstrained with elements of boxing, kickboxing, MT, wrestling/grappling, etc...

is the way to go.

Period.

And then there's some people on this thread who may have said in the past that they don't need to add any boxing type moves/footwork (or what have you) to their wing chun to make it effective in an mma/real fighting setting...

and now, not only are they on the bandwagon for an mma approach - but are doing revisionist history about how they may have felt about "how complete" their wing chun was...as recently as a week ago.

And then we hear things like "there really is no functional" pak, lop, bong, garn, etc. - within an mma (real fighting) setting. Oh, really?

Let's just call it as it is, shall we?

What Aaron (and guys like Alan Orr) are doing is A version of wing chun that works pretty well - and it's mixed with elements of other fighting styles, (ie.- a guillotine is a guillotine, not a bil jee move).

There's no shame in adding to your wing chun - it shows that your're smart.

And there's nothing lasting to be gained by saying that you're not adding to your wing chun when clearly you are.

And there's certainly no benefit (since your previous posts can easily be looked up in the archives) in saying that you believed in crosstraining your wing chun all along.

So good for Alan, Aaron, and the rest of those guys...They're doing some good things with their version of wing chun - and what they've added to it.

And as time goes on, I suspect other people within the wing chun world will be doing similar things with their version of wing chun...and what they've added/crosstrained into it.

And it's about time, imo.

[Pacman]

Robert, I think some people are so caught up in the TMA culture of "group think", and so used to having their views given to them by their "sifu", that they find it difficult to understand that this is not how you (and I) approach things.

you are the biggest example of a sheep who thinks he is not a sheep.

[Ultimatewingchun]

my point is that if the gracies had not decided to compete in the UFC, and stuck to competing in bjj tournaments, most people here would not know anything about bjj. and that fact would not take away from its effectiveness

so you cant intelligently conclude that because you have not seen it done in an MMA tournament that its useless

***THIS is an excellent point, Pacman...

And by way of a few examples of your point (that I alluded to on a previous post)...I believe the day will come in a credible mma fighting event...wherein we'll see some crosstraining wing chun guy who's also using moves like pak, lop, bong, garn, to name a few...

and using them very efficiently.

But I don't want "particulars" like those I just mentioned to take away from the main thrust of your post: If you haven't yet seen it used successfully in an MMA tounament as of yet - that doesn't automatically mean that it's useless.

You're 100% correct.

[Pacman]

My dad taught me how to play chess, but I became a chessmaster on my own, through my own hard work. My views on chess and WCK are my own, based on my own experience. I am not constrained by my teachers or limited to their views.


do you also play chess with your super secret underground chess club that someone can only join after 10 years of playing hopscotch?



If you or anyone wants to learn how to use WCK in MMA, then go train at a MMA school.


and MMA school basically means learning some boxing, MT, BJJ, and learning to sprawl and do a double leg takedown

so if i want to learn WC i need to go learn MT etc? now I know why you required that other guy to learn years of MT before joining your underground fighting organization

[Knifefighter]

so if i want to learn WC i need to go learn MT etc?
If you want to be able to apply it against someone knowledgeable of MMA you do.

[Pacman]

If you want to be able to apply it against someone knowledgeable of MMA you do.

again, because MMA standup basically equates to boxing and MT so your quote would be...

if i want to be able to apply it against someone knowledgeable of boxing or MT i need to learn boxing or MT. otherwise anyone knowing boxing or MT cant be dealt with.

[goju]

thats as rediculous as saying a boxer or mt guy has to learn kung fu in order to deal with it lol

all you have to do is train in a realistic fashion to be able to apply yoru art no matter what you study

[chusauli]

im glad someone is calling it what it is. WC has already changed over time in the past--people have added to it or taken away from it.

Given that WC is in large part concepts it is not surprising that different WC lineages can be so different.

i think its ok for alan and his guys to say that they have added to or changed WC to suit their needs, but to say that a guillotine is a Biu Jee move or that grabbing a guys head is a huen sau is a disservice by blurring definitions and only confuses the already confused WC masses.

Pacman,

You're stuck in technique mode - BJ's last Sam Bai Fut moves have no inherent meaning - it is the mechanics that made it into a guillotine. It can be a joint lock, parry, redirect, throw, etc. In my system we do not look at one possibility - we look at least 8-9 possibilities.

The FutSao WC system I remember did not have Sam Bai Fut like in YM WCK. Of course, I may not have been exposed to the real Fut Sao system. Of course, I am going by memory you are a FutSao guy...

[HumbleWCGuy]

If you go back and look at my posting history, almost every time that I have harassed someone, it is the result of that person putting someone else or some other style down with completely clueless "facts (ie, the clueless LCP, who spewed his ignorance that MMA fighters are only good because of drugs and conditioning and your ignorance in stating that Alan's guy was not able to use "real" WC effectively against a skilled opponent).

Often times, I'm actually sticking up for people from your very style. This thread is no different. You guys just get pizzed because I don't let you get away with it. If anything you should be banned for your stupid statements that a WC guy who has actually fought doesn't know how to use WC.

Sorry but you were already upset and starting to harass as soon as people disagreed with your basic premise that the clip demonstrated WC. Moreover, those of have met you in person have said that you admit to your internet trolling behaviors in person. Like a child, you blame your own bad behavior on someone else. Irrespective of the situation, you alone are responsible for you actions. Whether you think that you were provoked or not you need to get a hold of your own actions.

As for my comment about not knowing correct Wing Chun: There are two common themes MA right now (among many). People leaving TMA and find MMA because they were trained inadequately. The other theme is to call their MMA TMA to bolster their lack of understanding in TMA and/or to bolster their credibility as a MMAist.

[Alan Orr]

The reason I don't post much on these forums is due to being so bored of hearing people being so upset with guys like Terrence and Dale, who in my mind are some of the few guys that know what they are talking about. LOL

It only confirms the lack on understanding of not only wing chun but of fighting.

Time to talk about the art and lost understanding of its use!

[Alan Orr]

If you want to be able to apply it against someone knowledgeable of MMA you do.

100% correct

[Alan Orr]

More attacks... Nice.

How about just admitting that as a student of CSL your post is clueless and contradictory to the teachings of Robert. Or at least those I quoted.

As this is a thread about CSL WC and it's usage in MMA. It would seem logical that you would have something insightful to contribute... But obviously you do not.

Attack on what?

What could be more true? In CSL wing chun we are able to think with our own minds. Our teacher is open minded and has given us the gift of understanding so we are not trapped into one way of thinking, seeing or doing.

[Alan Orr]

I don't read Terence Niehoff's posts anymore (he's on my IGNORE LIST)...but I can fully understand the sentiments to ban him - as he's an endless pit of gutless mockery, redundancy, double standards, and out-and-out bull5hit...

and he's hijacked and derailed COUNTLESS threads over the last 5 years or so.

But I suspect the moderator(s) won't ban him unless he does start using profanity or what have you.

So imo the IGNORE LIST is the best way to go.
.........................

As for Dale Frank, he's a troll, through-and-through ...waaay more often than not - but one with some serious martial arts credentials. So I've come to believe that to ignore him (small "i") is the best way to go when he puts on the troll hat.


Yes, great idea. It someone is not saying what I want then ignore them. Good way to learn.

[Alan Orr]

It's amazing to me how much "we do that too" is going on here - instead of just recognizing things for what they are: elements of wing chun crosstrained with elements of boxing, kickboxing, MT, wrestling/grappling, etc...

is the way to go.

Period.

And then there's some people on this thread who may have said in the past that they don't need to add any boxing type moves/footwork (or what have you) to their wing chun to make it effective in an mma/real fighting setting...

and now, not only are they on the bandwagon for an mma approach - but are doing revisionist history about how they may have felt about "how complete" their wing chun was...as recently as a week ago.

And then we hear things like "there really is no functional" pak, lop, bong, garn, etc. - within an mma (real fighting) setting. Oh, really?

Let's just call it as it is, shall we?

What Aaron (and guys like Alan Orr) are doing is A version of wing chun that works pretty well - and it's mixed with elements of other fighting styles, (ie.- a guillotine is a guillotine, not a bil jee move).

There's no shame in adding to your wing chun - it shows that your're smart.

And there's nothing lasting to be gained by saying that you're not adding to your wing chun when clearly you are.

And there's certainly no benefit (since your previous posts can easily be looked up in the archives) in saying that you believed in crosstraining your wing chun all along.

So good for Alan, Aaron, and the rest of those guys...They're doing some good things with their version of wing chun - and what they've added to it.

And as time goes on, I suspect other people within the wing chun world will be doing similar things with their version of wing chun...and what they've added/crosstrained into it.

And it's about time, imo.


Again - missing the whole point.

We are not added to our wing chun. We are using our wing chun.

The CSL system is alive its not a set of applications, thats a basic level of martial arts.

[HumbleWCGuy]

The reason I don't post much on these forums is due to being so bored of hearing people being so upset with guys like Terrence and Dale, who in my mind are some of the few guys that know what they are talking about. LOL

It only confirms the lack on understanding of not only wing chun but of fighting.

Time to talk about the art and lost understanding of its use!

My criticism of them have nothing to do with their general philosophy of martial arts. I share their perspectives. I am critical of Dale because of his disingenuous motives for being on this forum. I am critical of Terrence because he is here just to keep arguments going and flip flops positions more as an annoyance rather than a change in understanding. Others feel exactly the same way. As far as I can tell, very few people dislike either based on their views on training. That might have been the case in the past, but I can't say that it currently is. They are disliked for the unwarranted negativity that they bring to threads that they post on rather than their view points on fighting per-say.

[goju]

being so bored of hearing people being so upset with guys like Terrence and Dale, who in my mind are some of the few guys that know what they are talking about. LOL

It only confirms the lack on understanding of not only wing chun but of fighting.



Funny because people on here who have competed have called them both crack pots especially terrence:D

[Knifefighter]

Funny because people on here who have competed have called them both crack pots especially terrence:D

"People who have competed"... yeah, right. Other than Alan and his guys, I'm pretty sure no one else who posts here has competed.

[Pacman]

Pacman,
You're stuck in technique mode - BJ's last Sam Bai Fut moves have no inherent meaning - it is the mechanics that made it into a guillotine. It can be a joint lock, parry, redirect, throw, etc. In my system we do not look at one possibility - we look at least 8-9 possibilities.

well im glad to know your point of view. i guess this is where we differ. in my view, WC consists of proper mechanics and actual techniques. one technique can have many applications, i agree, but i am not as liberal and abstract with my definitions as you are.

did you read my TKD WC analysis? IMO that is about as strong of a connection as anything else on this video. of course it might seem comical because you know i am not serious, but what about my post is more far-fetched than any WC analysis of this video?



The FutSao WC system I remember did not have Sam Bai Fut like in YM WCK. Of course, I may not have been exposed to the real Fut Sao system. Of course, I am going by memory you are a FutSao guy...

sorry i am not a fut sao guy

[Pacman]

The other theme is to call their MMA TMA to bolster their lack of understanding in TMA and/or to bolster their credibility as a MMAist.

*BANG* direct hit!

[Ultimatewingchun]

As for my comment about not knowing correct Wing Chun: There are two common themes MA right now (among many). People leaving TMA and find MMA because they were trained inadequately. The other theme is to call their MMA TMA to bolster their lack of understanding in TMA and/or to bolster their credibility as a MMAist.

***BUT you left out the third theme, Humble...

Enhancing their TMA by adding elements from other styles. :D

[goju]

"People who have competed"... yeah, right. Other than Alan and his guys, I'm pretty sure no one else who posts here has competed.

yes you're an accomplished grappler therefore yuu should stick to talking about what you know GRAPPLING

why you insist on carrying on about stand up arts is beyond me especially when you consider youre not really good at any of them:rolleyes::D

[Ultimatewingchun]

My criticism of them have nothing to do with their general philosophy of martial arts. I share their perspectives. I am critical of Dale because of his disingenuous motives for being on this forum. I am critical of Terrence because he is here just to keep arguments going and flip flops positions more as an annoyance rather than a change in understanding. Others feel exactly the same way. As far as I can tell, very few people dislike either based on their views on training. That might have been the case in the past, but I can't say that it currently is. They are disliked for the unwarranted negativity that they bring to threads that they post on rather than their view points on fighting per-say.

***COULDN'T have said it better, Humble. One is basically a troll and the other is a complete joke.

[SAAMAG]

I'm just tired of seeing the same **** discussed over and over again in every thread topic. I mean even a pull string toy baby has a better capacity for varying subject matter then these two guys do.

Don't get me wrong what they're saying in regard to application success being a direct byproduct of training is true, as is the idea of sparring being an accepted component of the curriculum.

But does one have to repeat it over and over and over and over and over and over and over......




...and over again??

[goju]

I'm just tired of seeing the same **** discussed over and over again in every thread topic. I mean even a pull string toy baby has a better capacity for varying subject matter then these two guys do.

Don't get me wrong what they're saying in regard to application success being a direct byproduct of training is true, as is the idea of sparring being an accepted component of the curriculum.

But does one have to repeat it over and over and over and over and over and over and over......




...and over again??

the problem i have with it (or amusement) is that they think what they are saying is reinventing the wheel and hasnt been conluded for the what the past couple of centuries? lol:D

[SAAMAG]

the problem i have with it (or amusement) is that they think what they are saying is reinventing the wheel and hasnt been conluded for the what the past couple of centuries? lol:D

There is THAT too lol.

[anerlich]

Terrence and Dale, who in my mind are some of the few guys that know what they are talking about. LOL

You're half right, Alan ... the second half.

[JPinAZ]

What could be more true? In CSL wing chun we are able to think with our own minds. Our teacher is open minded and has given us the gift of understanding so we are not trapped into one way of thinking, seeing or doing.

Wow, that's great. People thinking for themselves, what a breakthru...... :rolleyes:

But, Duende's post was in response and directed toward T, not you. While T's been given the blessing by his sifu to do his own thinking, seeing and doing (everyone else BTW, usually gets that at birth), I guess he wasn't given the permission do the talking for himself since he's got you to speak for him. ;)

Funny, T said: "I think some people are so caught up in the TMA culture of "group think", and so used to having their views given to them by their "sifu".... By your words, you are allowed to think and see for yourselves only as a gift from yours...

[Ultimatewingchun]

Wait a minute, JP...

Did I read this right? Did you just encourage Terence Niehoff to do even more talking!!!:eek:

Oh God, another thread just about ready to hit the skids...:p







....Well, maybe it was time. :cool:

[JPinAZ]

naw, he doesn't need any encouragment from me! He's a lawyer, they talk even when they don't have a leg to stand on..

This thread was doomed to hit the skids the minute it started :p

[Phil Redmond]

"People who have competed"... yeah, right. Other than Alan and his guys, I'm pretty sure no one else who posts here has competed.
I post here. ;)

[kung fu fighter]

The FutSao WC system I remember did not have Sam Bai Fut like in YM WCK. Of course, I may not have been exposed to the real Fut Sao system. Of course, I am going by memory you are a FutSao guy...

Hey Robert,

Who did you study Fut sao wing chun with, was it Henry Leung in NYC?

[anerlich]

While T's been given the blessing by his sifu to do his own thinking, seeing and doing

I just hope his sifu has learned from his mistake.

[Knifefighter]

I post here. ;)
Oh yeah, forgot about you...sorry. Other than you, that's it, so it so it look like byozo was wrong once again.

[goju]

Oh yeah, forgot about you...sorry. Other than you, that's it, so it so it look like byozo was wrong once again.

what about sanjuro?

I suppose naming people here who competed after you said there were none makes me wrong? lol

**** i should have thought before i typed......:rolleyes:

you are aware of what sarcasm is right little buddy?:D

[SAAMAG]

Not withstanding that by "competing" he means only MMA sanctioned events.

Noting the sarcasm...these are by far the better measuring stick over actual fights, full contact matches between schools, and full contact fighting as a regular regimen within your own circle of training partners.

It's quite arrogant to think that if you haven't fought in an MMA match that you cannot fight. Some of us have been training long before MMA was even a buzz-word. Though right about now I'm having a hard time finding sparring partners who will spar even with gear let alone without it.

[goju]

ah i see so you compete in three very low level mma matches and you can act like an ass on a forum when youre old

i didnt know thats how the process worked
:D

[t_niehoff]

The reason I don't post much on these forums is due to being so bored of hearing people being so upset with guys like Terrence and Dale, who in my mind are some of the few guys that know what they are talking about. LOL

It only confirms the lack on understanding of not only wing chun but of fighting.

Time to talk about the art and lost understanding of its use!

What's interesting is that all the guys who get out and put in significant time training/sparring with good, proven fighters, basically share the same general views -- which come from the same sort of experience.

[Frost]

You need to get out in the WC forums more !

this place confuses me, I thought wing chuns whole appeal was it was quick and easy to learn and super efficient...yet on here you learn that it’s about as complicated as quantum mechanics, very very few people can do it and none of them can be bothered to post a video of how it is done correctly in action...oh well I guess we are lucky in that every poster here seems to belong to that elusive group that got the real stuff

[Frost]

I would suggest you follow Victor's advice.
Nothing that thy have done would warrant a ban, considering far worse crap that has happened and by anonymous posters to boot.

This is an internet discussion forum, if you don't like someone;s views you say, I disagree, make YOUR point and IF it has merits, it will stand on its own.

I think that the problem a lot of the counter agreements can’t be backed up by anything other than well this is what I have seen or believe, and thus they can’t stand up on their own, I have said all along the way to shut T up show him he is wrong post a video of yourself or someone else pulling of the things he says can’t work against what he would call a good proven fighter

[Frost]

my point is that if the gracie had not decided to compete in the UFC, and stuck to competing in bjj tournaments, most people here would not know anything about bjj. and that fact would not take away from its effectiveness

so you cant intelligently conclude that because you have not seen it done in an MMA tournament that its useless

Is it ok if we conclude its useless because we have not seen it done anywhere, in any combat form, or fight...either personally on DVD or on the net...is that ok?

Would you agree that if you can’t see it done in any physical arena, MMA, Thai, Sanshou, grappling, judo, rugby then the chances of it working are small, because if it did work and was a good move those styles would have already discovered it for themselves, much as all wrestling styles developed a form of the underhook independently of each other ?

And the Gracie’s had always competed in NHB alongside BJJ/grappling, they felt it was important for a style to prove itself that it fault as many different other styles as possible under as limited rules as possible, radical I know but go figure, and just competing in BJJ tournaments would have taken away its effectiveness as a fighting art this can be seen when pure BJJ guys go into MMA without changing the way they fight, it’s a wakeup call for them

[Frost]

Funny because people on here who have competed have called them both crack pots especially terrence:D

really like who? beacuse the few people i know of on here who have competed or trained guys to compete agree with much of what Dale says if not the way he says it :D

[LSWCTN1]

i think its ok for alan and his guys to say that they have added to or changed WC to suit their needs, but to say that a guillotine is a Biu Jee move or that grabbing a guys head is a huen sau is a disservice by blurring definitions and only confuses the already confused WC masses.

this really relates to peoples learning i guess...

my father learnt in the 70'sin a very traditional manner and he was showing me different types of 'tan sau' that they do last night.

to me he was showing jut sau and tut? sau, but to him they were tan because thats how the hand shape ended up. similar thing with him turning, imo, from bong to lan. to him it was still bong

to me the energies were different, so regardless of the shape they where NOT tan and bong etc. some people may just take the shape and use it in any manner.

if they can use it for that, incorrect or not, and i cant use it for the 'correct' way; which is better...?


The FutSao WC system I remember did not have Sam Bai Fut like in YM WCK. Of course, I may not have been exposed to the real Fut Sao system. Of course, I am going by memory you are a FutSao guy...

i have a feeling that i know who he is and if i am correct then he knows his stuff.

[sanjuro_ronin]

what about sanjuro?

I suppose naming people here who competed after you said there were none makes me wrong? lol

**** i should have thought before i typed......:rolleyes:

you are aware of what sarcasm is right little buddy?:D

AH dude, what I do can hardly be called WC, even if I did Moy Yat WC for almost 5 years.
I use many of the principles but to call it WC is, well wrong.
Plus I agree with Dale and Terrence, though I disagree with their methods.

[Frost]

yes you're an accomplished grappler therefore yuu should stick to talking about what you know GRAPPLING

why you insist on carrying on about stand up arts is beyond me especially when you consider youre not really good at any of them:rolleyes::D

really have you seen any of dales stand up , he has fought full contact here and has written about going to Japan to fight in full thai rules back in the day, he has also been in MMA fights..who else here is that qualified to talk about striking..you?:eek:

[Frost]

ah i see so you compete in three very low level mma matches and you can act like an ass on a forum when youre old

i didnt know thats how the process worked
:D

or you can moan about not finding anywhere to train and then act like an ass :D

[HumbleWCGuy]

What's interesting is that all the guys who get out and put in significant time training/sparring with good, proven fighters, basically share the same general views -- which come from the same sort of experience.

I am sorry, which proven fighters have any of the three of you fought? I don't mean sparred or rolled with; I mean fought.

[Knifefighter]

I am sorry, which proven fighters have any of the three of you fought? I don't mean sparred or rolled with; I mean fought.
I fought the number 2 ranked professional Japanese kickboxer in a televised fight sometime back in the 80's. I fought Eric Knaus, who is considered by many to be the worlds' best stickfighter, in a Dog Bros match.

Do those count?

How about you, which proven fighters have you fought?

[lkfmdc]

I fought the number 2 ranked professional Japanese kickboxer in a televised fight sometime back in the 80's. I fought Eric Knaus, who is considered by many to be the worlds' best stickfighter, in a Dog Bros match.

Do those count?

How about you, which proven fighters have you fought?

we all know he will come back with something along the lines of "blah blah blah blah" :D

[Ultimatewingchun]

I fought the number 2 ranked professional Japanese kickboxer in a televised fight sometime back in the 80's. I fought Eric Knaus, who is considered by many to be the worlds' best stickfighter, in a Dog Bros match.

Do those count?

How about you, which proven fighters have you fought?

***AND YET you've got nothing better to do than hangout on a wing chun forum in order to endlessly beat your chest and take shots at the wing chun posters???

I would think that someone with your credentials would spend his time on other martial arts websites; you know, the forums much more worthy of your presence.

Strange....

[goju]

or you can moan about not finding anywhere to train and then act like an ass :D

i never moaned i just dont feel like wasting my money and time on a gym again for nothing

ive been looking into eastons bjj im likely going to end up there :D

[goju]

I fought the number 2 ranked professional Japanese kickboxer in a televised fight sometime back in the 80's. I fought Eric Knaus, who is considered by many to be the worlds' best stickfighter, in a Dog Bros match.

Do those count?

How about you, which proven fighters have you fought?

any proof of the kick boxing match? i know alot of 200 fights you claim to have participated in have to be believed by your word alone:D

as for the stick fight (shrugs) good for you

[goju]

AH dude, what I do can hardly be called WC, even if I did Moy Yat WC for almost 5 years.
I use many of the principles but to call it WC is, well wrong.
Plus I agree with Dale and Terrence, though I disagree with their methods.
ah i didnt say you didnt wc i just noted youre one of the people who has competed ont he board

im sure others have as well but i dont talk to many on here:D

[SAAMAG]

One thing that needs to be distinuished as well is that while anyone can fight anyone in a NHM/MMA/UFC type match-- it really necessarily bring any creditials to knowing "the real way to fight".

But why you may ask?

It's because you can still engage in actual combat and learn nothing from it. You can be just as unskilled before the fight as you are after it. Yes you will have obtained "experience" but not all experiences are equal.

Experience in losing means that you have more to work on--this could be in general mechanics, strategy, tactics, conditioning...whatever. It could also mean that you were indeed proficient in those areas but that the other guys relative skill was higher in one or all areas.

Experience in winning means you're on the other end of the spectrum. It means that you had superior relative skill in any or all of the aformentioned areas. You were the better man that day.

Does it mean that because you've done this several times that you are now an authority on a style's effectiveness? Nope. What is does mean is that YOU were able to use what you trained against specific people under specific conditions.

I can fight Mike Tyson 5 times over...and each time I try and ultimately fail in my application of wing chun against him doesn't mean that wing chun sucks (or that I have some newfound elitist knowledge over the rest of the "sheep"), it means that Mike Tyson is a monster that I cannot win against regardless of the style--because I as a person am no match for him.

[goju]

this place confuses me, I thought wing chuns whole appeal was it was quick and easy to learn and super efficient...yet on here you learn that it’s about as complicated as quantum mechanics,

in reality theres not really any martial art that is quick and easy to pick up


really like who? beacuse the few people i know of on here who have competed or trained guys to compete agree with much of what Dale says if not the way he says it

the dreaded "Reverse punch" debate comes to mind both him and igor were carrying on about it not working and some one( i dont remember who) came on here and noted they used it during kock down karate competitions sucessfully they both got quiet real soon afterwards:D


really have you seen any of dales stand up , he has fought full contact here and has written about going to Japan to fight in full thai rules back in the day, he has also been in MMA fights..who else here is that qualified to talk about striking..you

With that attitude kimbo slice is qualified to talk about grappling simply because hes competed in competitons that use it:D

Look, the whole point of the forum is to for others to hang out with other martial artists , learn about other styles/training etc.etc. and share their opinion on different things.

The keyword is OPINIONS.Everyone is entitled to theirs and no one's opinion has more worth than anothers . For all we know we may be ALL full of of **** and cant do anything:D BUT there still is plenty of room for every body to put in their opinions whether or not this is true. However when some one comes on here and pretty much bashes everyone else and plays the "i know more than you" routine i have an issue with that.

As victor noted IT IS odd how some one with such supposed credentials has nothing better to do than flex his e-chest at the board and challenge posters( some young enough to be his kid) to meet him up for a go on the mat:rolleyes:

people who are accomplished pro fighters tend to not hang around the net acting this way they usually are you know... training lol

[t_niehoff]

I am sorry, which proven fighters have any of the three of you fought? I don't mean sparred or rolled with; I mean fought.

Sparring when done realistically is fighting.

[t_niehoff]

***AND YET you've got nothing better to do than hangout on a wing chun forum in order to endlessly beat your chest and take shots at the wing chun posters???

I would think that someone with your credentials would spend his time on other martial arts websites; you know, the forums much more worthy of your presence.

Strange....

The only thing that is strange is that people like you ignore what he says because it conflicts with your views which are based on NEVER training with any decent fighters.

[t_niehoff]

naw, he doesn't need any encouragment from me! He's a lawyer, they talk even when they don't have a leg to stand on..


When are you and Victor earning your GEDs?

[HumbleWCGuy]

I fought the number 2 ranked professional Japanese kickboxer in a televised fight sometime back in the 80's. I fought Eric Knaus, who is considered by many to be the worlds' best stickfighter, in a Dog Bros match.

Do those count?

How about you, which proven fighters have you fought?

We have to hold you to your own standard. Without documentation your stories hold no credence. As far as Eric, I am going to call that a sparring match.

[HumbleWCGuy]

we all know he will come back with something along the lines of "blah blah blah blah" :D

Exactly because Dale's delusions carry no weight.

All you need to know about Dale's illustrious kickboxing career.

Here is Dale evenly matched with another man.


part 1 - http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fu...ideoID=2237585, stand up stuff

part 2 - http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fu...ideoID=2288188, ground stuff.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Sparring when done realistically is fighting.

Sparrring done correctly rarely matches the intensity of the ring, cage, or street. If you think that it does then you need to step into the ring. In a ring all the play-nice, and goodwill that you take advantage of is gone.

So now you are going to tell me how you held your own against a top notch mma fighter in a real sparring match?

[m1k3]

How many times do we have to hear this argument? Here let me finish it for you.

Sparring isn't the same as fighting!
Yes it is!
No it isn't!
Yes it is!
No it isn't!
Yes it is!
No it isn't!
Yes it is!
No it isn't!
Yes it is!
No it isn't!
Yes it is!
No it isn't!
Yes it is!
No it isn't!
Yes it is!
No it isn't!
Yes it is!
No it isn't!
Yes it is!
No it isn't!



Can we move on now?

[goju]

How many times do we have to hear this argument? Here let me finish it for you.

Sparring isn't the same as fighting!
Yes it is!
No it isn't!
Yes it is!
No it isn't!
Yes it is!
No it isn't!
Yes it is!
No it isn't!
Yes it is!
No it isn't!
Yes it is!
No it isn't!
Yes it is!
No it isn't!
Yes it is!
No it isn't!
Yes it is!
No it isn't!
Yes it is!
No it isn't!



Can we move on now?

but then it will turn into an arguement on whether or not we should move on:D

[HumbleWCGuy]

but then it will turn into an arguement on whether or not we should move on:D

Terrence will do whatever it takes to keep the argument going to fuel his addiction to the internet.

[JPinAZ]

When are you and Victor earning your GEDs?

hahaha! that's all you have?
my bad if you're talking about a spelling error, here - 'encouragement'. If I miss a letter here or there, it's just a reflection of my hurry to type when I have other things to do, like train.

But since you are in the mood to ask questions, here's some for you:
So, when did your sifu give you the 'gift' of thinking and doing for yourself? How very nice of him to bestow that on his students :rolleyes:
And when does Alan stop speaking in your place? Do you guys need special permission for that too?
Also, with all your talk in the past of what a joke titles like 'master' and 'grandmaster' are, you seem to have no problem calling yourself one.. ;)


What's interesting is that all the guys who get out and put in significant time training/sparring with good, proven fighters, basically share the same general views -- which come from the same sort of experience.
And, since you group yourself with these others, who are the good, proven fighters you've trained and sparred with? (since you failed to answer the question the first time around)
And fwiw, sparring and fighting are very different. Anyone who's done both would know this. Just shows what a poser you really are.

[Ultimatewingchun]

...showing the constant contradictions that Terence Niehoff has engaged in about the nature of chi sao.

But I think I now know why there's so much confusion in his mind about wing chun.

You see, he actually started out as a blackbelt in karate before he got into wing chun - and his frustration at not being able to deal with wing chun fighters in those days is what lead him to study the art.

But since he's just not that good at anything (I know this because he himself has said this numerous times)...

he eventually got very disenchanted with wing chun also.

But anyway, here's a video of Terence from back in his karate days; and after seeing this, you'll have a better understanding of the man's problems.

In fact, I'm almost ready to shed a tear for the guy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbRhAsacMvw&feature=related

[HumbleWCGuy]

I am telling you that Terrence is an internet addicted nut case who will say anything to keep arguments going.

[Pacman]

Is it ok if we conclude its useless because we have not seen it done anywhere, in any combat form, or fight...either personally on DVD or on the net...is that ok?

yes it would be ok to conclude, except thats not the case. people have experiences outside of a public sanctioned sporting event.

the whole notion that you don't know **** if you don't compete in a sporting event is crazy. there are many people that train and fight hard outside of these venues.

i personally have seen WC used effectively as it was taught against MT boxers and western boxers. I myself have personally fought against two boxers. One was a regional GG boxing champ in the LA area. The other had no real credentials but he had been boxing for over 10 years. Yes we had headgear on and gloves on and no one was holding back.

against the MT boxer i saw the WC guy raise his knee to block the MT round kick and in accordance with WC principles and tactics he then kept his knee raised and did a piercing heart kick (front heel kick) thrusting to the guys abdomen and he was out. he never saw it coming or expected it because most other fighting styles would block and then attack or block and wait to block again, but in WC blocking and attacking is one movement.

someone said in this thread "i thought WC is supposed to be simple". the movements are simple on the surface and the ideas are pretty simple on the surface, but to apply it all is not so simple.

the problem is that the ideas are passed down are like a game of telephone, and often times when someone doesnt fully understand it gets warped and twisted. people add things to try to bolster their lack of skill or change things up completely and its not even WC anymore.

[Pacman]

It's because you can still engage in actual combat and learn nothing from it. You can be just as unskilled before the fight as you are after it. Yes you will have obtained "experience" but not all experiences are equal.


my thoughts exactly

[Ultimatewingchun]

ppeople have experiences outside of a public sanctioned sporting event.

The whole notion that you don't know **** if you don't compete in a sporting event is crazy. There are many people that train and fight hard outside of these venues.

I personally have seen wc used effectively as it was taught against mt boxers and western boxers. I myself have personally fought against two boxers. One was a regional gg boxing champ in the la area. The other had no real credentials but he had been boxing for over 10 years. Yes we had headgear on and gloves on and no one was holding back.

Against the mt boxer i saw the wc guy raise his knee to block the mt round kick and in accordance with wc principles and tactics he then kept his knee raised and did a piercing heart kick (front heel kick) thrusting to the guys abdomen and he was out. He never saw it coming or expected it because most other fighting styles would block and then attack or block and wait to block again, but in wc blocking and attacking is one movement.

Someone said in this thread "i thought wc is supposed to be simple". The movements are simple on the surface and the ideas are pretty simple on the surface, but to apply it all is not so simple.

The problem is that the ideas are passed down are like a game of telephone, and often times when someone doesnt fully understand it gets warped and twisted. People add things to try to bolster their lack of skill or change things up completely and its not even wc anymore.

***this...

[Knifefighter]

***AND YET you've got nothing better to do than hangout on a wing chun forum in order to endlessly beat your chest and take shots at the wing chun posters???

I would think that someone with your credentials would spend his time on other martial arts websites; you know, the forums much more worthy of your presence.

Strange....

LOL... you do bring up a good point.

However, ya gotta say something when you've got a clueless nutcase who thinks Dog Bros matches are sparring, puts down other fighters who have actual clips up when he has never done anything himself, and calls other people trolls when all he does is troll.

[JPinAZ]

LOL... you do bring up a good point.

However, ya gotta say something when you've got a clueless nutcase who thinks Dog Bros matches are sparring, puts down other fighters who have actual clips up when he has never done anything himself, and calls other people trolls when all he does is troll.

hmmmmm.... I don't think T will be too happy to hear you talking about him like this...
(as he confuses sparring and fighting quite often, trolls all the time and has puts down everyone without one clip himself)

[Frost]

[QUOTE=goju;1005841]in reality theres not really any martial art that is quick and easy to pick up

yes there are if you can't use what you know within a few months that art is usless, now mastery of the art is another thing but thai, boxing, judo BJJ can all be picked up easily enough...why not wing chun?


[QUOTE]the dreaded "Reverse punch" debate comes to mind both him and igor were carrying on about it not working and some one( i dont remember who) came on here and noted they used it during kock down karate competitions sucessfully they both got quiet real soon afterwards:D

the chambered reverse punch is useless when head shots are allowed as most karate guys found out when they went full contact in the 60's and then they learned boxing, this is a documented fact



[QUOTE] With that attitude kimbo slice is qualified to talk about grappling simply because hes competed in competitons that use it:D

well he is more qualified than a bunch of arm chair fighters who have not competed or do you think you know more than someone who has actually been there and done what you only talk about...serious question?
[
QUOTE][QUOTE=goju;1005841]
Look, the whole point of the forum is to for others to hang out with other martial artists , learn about other styles/training etc.etc. and share their opinion on different things.
The keyword is OPINIONS.Everyone is entitled to theirs and no one's opinion has more worth than anothers . For all we know we may be ALL full of of **** and cant do anything:D BUT there still is plenty of room for every body to put in their opinions whether or not this is true. However when some one comes on here and pretty much bashes everyone else and plays the "i know more than you" routine i have an issue with that.

Actually this is rubbish some opinions are worth more than others, if we are talking about fighting then the person who has actually fought has more weight behind them than someone who has not, they speak from expereince and expereince is a good teacher, believing otherwise is foolish and why martial arts are in the state they are in



As victor noted IT IS odd how some one with such supposed credentials has nothing better to do than flex his e-chest at the board and challenge posters( some young enough to be his kid) to meet him up for a go on the mat:rolleyes:
people who are accomplished pro fighters tend to not han around the net acting this way they usually are you know... training lol

Dale is not a pro fighter and probably posts when at work, his credentials are proven and documented so stop being silly, he chooses to ruffle feathers and speak from his experience whats wrong with that, so many here say they have the good stuff but are loath to actually say what it is, at least he says what he thinks works and what does not and backs it up, i wish others did this too

[JPinAZ]

...showing the constant contradictions that Terence Niehoff has engaged in about the nature of chi sao.


Hey, it was nothing :)
Let a crappy lawyer talk long enough, and the evidence (or lack-of in his case) will present itself soon enough. All I did was put it all in one easy-to-read line of BS. And it's still going on if you read his latest post regarding chi sau!

[goju]

yes there are if you can't use what you know within a few months that art is usless, now mastery of the art is another thing but thai, boxing, judo BJJ can all be picked up easily enough...why not wing chun?


Oh! sorry misunderstood i was thinking in terms of becoming extremely proficient in the art! depending on how hard and frequently you train yes you should be bale t start using your art in that little of a time


the chambered reverse punch is useless when head shots are allowed as most karate guys found out when they went full contact in the 60's and then they learned boxing, this is a documented fact

ive never seen karateka fight with chamber fists outside of really bad schools and some point sparing comps

the fist is kept chambered during kata and the like but sparring/fighting..no

and this is not a boxing influence though alot of karate guys did study that(nothing wrong with that)


well he is more qualified than a bunch of arm chair fighters who have not competed or do you think you know more than someone who has actually been there and done what you only talk about...serious question?

so in your mind its not possible for someone to be better skilled or more knowledgeable than a person just because that person competed?

Look at greg jackson he never competed and hes considered one of the best coaches out there today

and im not bashing competiton i like the idea of them and aspire to it myself but hey we need to wake up to reality anyone can enter themselves into a competiton

it certainly proves they have the courage to get in their but the level of skill varies from horrible to amazing



Actually this is rubbish some opinions are worth more than others, if we are talking about fighting then the person who has actually fought has more weight behind them than someone who has not, they speak from expereince and expereince is a good teacher, believing otherwise is foolish and why martial arts are in the state they are in
its not rubbish the only way we will ever know how full of it any of us are(or not) is if we meet each other personally and spar.




Dale is not a pro fighter and probably posts when at work, his credentials are proven and documented so stop being silly, he chooses to ruffle feathers and speak from his experience whats wrong with that, so many here say they have the good stuff but are loath to actually say what it is, at least he says what he thinks works and what does not and backs it up, i wish others did this too

as i said theres a difference between vocing your opinion and acting like a clown
people that behave like that generally are more talk than anything
:D

[m1k3]

so in your mind its not possible for someone to be better skilled or more knowledgeable than a person just because that person competed?

:D
I tend to side with Frost and his posts pretty well cover my thoughts also. I think it is possible to knowledgeable without competing. I have been a boxing fan most of my life, I am reasonably knowledgeable about the sport and even trained and fought at the inter mural level a long time ago. However almost any boxer who has competed in at a recognized level will be more skilled than I, even if less knowledgeable.

Competition brings about a level of personal skill that can not be attained without competing. Your skill level will always be incomplete unless you compete.

[goju]

hey i understand ( agree) with that but its not like we have manny paciao on here lol

that was the point i was making

i havent fought but ive sparred with people who have competed before

a few times i did extremely well other times i was slapped all over the place

the times i did well was because i was better skilled despite the fact the person had competion experience on me

[HumbleWCGuy]

LOL... you do bring up a good point.

However, ya gotta say something when you've got a clueless nutcase who thinks Dog Bros matches are sparring, puts down other fighters who have actual clips up when he has never done anything himself, and calls other people trolls when all he does is troll.

No, I am just pointing out that your skill level is too low for a top level fighter to take you seriously. I am sure that you thought that you were in the thick of things, but more likely, Eric was humoring you on some level.

[anerlich]

but then it will turn into an arguement on whether or not we should move on

And whether anyone who hasn't moved on under real pressure from opponents who really don't want to move on can really understand what moving on is, or is just a theoretical non-mover-onner.

WRT the video AAron certanly looked the better pugilist, nice crisp shots and I can see body structure behind his movements. However, while he was definitely the better puncher (and better grappler, though the other guy basically didn't do any grappling or defense against grappling), he didn't seem to really do his opponent much damage other than a slow relentless wearing down. I think the telling factor was his superior conditioning, the other dude seemed to be in survival mode dring the last round and a half.

Not to take anything away, this was obviously a clear win to Aaron and that can't be criticised.

I have doubts whether anyone watching the fight, WC backgound or not, who knew nothing of Aaron's background would have picked him as using WC ... which is only a bad thing if you think it is, I don't.

[YungChun]

Pacman,

That is a trap - its not going to be "Fan Sao" like in Chi Sao... that's fantasy stuff. In real fights, you do it that way to deliver the goods. See how Aaron does not wind up- his hands strike from where they are.


Right so 'fansao' and the concept/idea behind it is fantasy, and can't be used in a real fight... I think that says it all...as far as who knows what..

One of the core elements, that makes VT what it is, is about not trapping your own hands.. Can't be done? It has been done and is done...

Fighting using methods that trap your own hands, is fine.. People the world over do it, in fact it's natural.. So are lots of other techniques that have nothing to do with VT...

I know, VT is not a linear art, doesn't emphasize use of the line, BiuJee has a guillotine in it and VT uses the same timing and structure you see in a hockey fight..

Just amazing how many folks have been using VT all these years without any VT training isn't it?

Just as amazing how many claim to teach VT while teaching something completely generic.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Right so 'fansao' and the concept/idea behind it is fantasy, and can't be used in a real fight... I think that says it all...as far as who knows what..

One of the core elements, that makes VT what it is, is about not trapping your own hands.. Can't be done? It has been done and is done...

Fighting using methods that trap your own hands, is fine.. People the world over do it, in fact it's natural.. So are lots of other techniques that have nothing to do with VT...

I know, VT is not a linear art, doesn't emphasize use of the line, BiuJee has a guillotine in it and VT uses the same timing and structure you see in a hockey fight..

Just amazing how many folks have been using VT all these years without any VT training isn't it?

Just as amazing how many claim to teach VT while teaching something completely generic.

***One possible solution....WING CHUN FIGHT LEAGUE. Let's see what all the various wing chun methods can do, whether they're generic or specific.

[YungChun]

***One possible solution....WING CHUN FIGHT LEAGUE. Let's see what all the various wing chun methods can do, whether they're generic or specific.

Sounds fine to me Victor..

I had thought that adapting the classical Knock Down match from Kyokushin Karate but with head shots allowed would also be a good step in the right direction.

[Ultimatewingchun]

That's good too.

[Phil Redmond]

I have the perfect venue for a WC only event in NYC (if that's what some people want).

[Phil Redmond]

Hey Robert,

Who did you study Fut sao wing chun with, was it Henry Leung in NYC?
Fut Sao WC does have Sam Bai Fut. I learned it from Henry Leung.

[Frost]

No, I am just pointing out that your skill level is too low for a top level fighter to take you seriously. I am sure that you thought that you were in the thick of things, but more likely, Eric was humoring you on some level.

In what venue are you considering his skill level to be low? In grappling he competes in advanced masters divisions against the best there is, in stick fighting and edge weapon work he is an original dog brother and fights at most of the gatherings (and really stop with the insults have you seen now those guys fight each other Krauss would not humour him they go full out especially when the dogs fight each other...lunless you know him personally and can get him to tell us otherwise?).

In Thai back in the day he went to Japan to fight the best, in MMA he has fought full rules and has posted videos of this...I agree in MMA he might not be anywhere near the top but he is a lot closer than any of us on here so his opinion is worth a lot, and unless you or any of us want to actually post videos of ourselves fighting full contact then he his head and shoulders above all of us in that regard too

[Frost]

so in your mind its not possible for someone to be better skilled or more knowledgeable than a person just because that person competed?

Look at greg jackson he never competed and hes considered one of the best coaches out there today

and im not bashing competiton i like the idea of them and aspire to it myself but hey we need to wake up to reality anyone can enter themselves into a competiton

it certainly proves they have the courage to get in their but the level of skill varies from horrible to amazing

:D

No not really if they were better skilled they would be competing, those that have not competed have no idea about the training that is involved, about the big mental difference between sparring and fighting

And why on earth do you bring Jackson into this...unless you are equating yourself and all us other are chair fighters with someone who trains with and coach’s great fighters and who has spent years becoming a great coach through trial and error..Do you put yourself in the same league as this guy?

Still let’s take Jackson and GSP...Do you think Jackson is more skilled or knowledgeable about grappling than GSP...I doubt it what he is skilled at is coaching the fighter to beat his opponent and implementing a fight strategy...why because this is what he does what he has experience in. His knowledge of the fight game comes from hands on experience just as a fighters knowledge comes from hands on experience, neither of which most arm chair fighters have

If the level of skill is so low why aren't you out there beating them all up right now...serious question why not?

People always rag on amateur fighters saying the skill level is low etc but are reluctant to step up and show them are bad they are why I don't know.

But for the record yes I feel someone who has been there and done it, regardless of winning or losing knows more about what it takes to get in there and do it and about what actually works than someone who has never been in that environment.

[t_niehoff]

***One possible solution....WING CHUN FIGHT LEAGUE. Let's see what all the various wing chun methods can do, whether they're generic or specific.

Oh, and why not the aikido fight league and the tai ji fight league, etc.? Do you see how silly this is?

Scrubs don't get better fighting with other scrubs. You need to seek out GOOD people to fight/train with.

Plentiful venues already exist for anyone interested in fighting -- why would you expect people who won't fight in these and won't even go mix it up at MMA or MT schools to partake in these things?

[t_niehoff]

hahaha! that's all you have?
my bad if you're talking about a spelling error, here - 'encouragement'. If I miss a letter here or there, it's just a reflection of my hurry to type when I have other things to do, like train.


No, just showing you - by illustration - how infantile it is to resort to personal attacks about someone's profession, education, etc.



But since you are in the mood to ask questions, here's some for you:
So, when did your sifu give you the 'gift' of thinking and doing for yourself? How very nice of him to bestow that on his students :rolleyes:


That's a "gift" I already had, and since Robert stressed it (being critical/skeptical) in his teaching approach, we had a natural fit.

You tried to point out how Robert and I disagree, and my point is that this is natural when you begin thinking for yourself. Robert never wants his students to regurgitate dogma or rely on what he tells his students.



And when does Alan stop speaking in your place? Do you guys need special permission for that too?


Alan speaks when he wants to -- he's a grown, independent man and can do what he likes. Alan doesn't support what I say out of "clan" loyalty (since our only loyalty is to the truth) but because he agrees with what I say (why I agree often with Dale).



Also, with all your talk in the past of what a joke titles like 'master' and 'grandmaster' are, you seem to have no problem calling yourself one.. ;)


LOL! Dude, I'm the ONLY one here on this forum who has said -- over and over again -- that I'm not that good. I KNOW that because I have trained with people who actually are very, very good.

The problem with many here on this forum is that they believe that they and their "master" are "good". All it would take to disavow them of this attitude is a few minutes at a MMA school -- but that's something they avoid like the plague.



And, since you group yourself with these others, who are the good, proven fighters you've trained and sparred with? (since you failed to answer the question the first time around)
And fwiw, sparring and fighting are very different. Anyone who's done both would know this. Just shows what a poser you really are.

I've listed many times before the places I train or have trained.

You think sparring is different than fighting since FOR YOU they are different -- your sparring is unrealistic. Go spar at a MMA school or a MT school and then we'll talk again!

[sanjuro_ronin]

No, I am just pointing out that your skill level is too low for a top level fighter to take you seriously. I am sure that you thought that you were in the thick of things, but more likely, Eric was humoring you on some level.

You didn't see the match and at gatherings, no one HUMORS anyone.

[t_niehoff]

Right so 'fansao' and the concept/idea behind it is fantasy, and can't be used in a real fight... I think that says it all...as far as who knows what..

One of the core elements, that makes VT what it is, is about not trapping your own hands.. Can't be done? It has been done and is done...

Fighting using methods that trap your own hands, is fine.. People the world over do it, in fact it's natural.. So are lots of other techniques that have nothing to do with VT...

I know, VT is not a linear art, doesn't emphasize use of the line, BiuJee has a guillotine in it and VT uses the same timing and structure you see in a hockey fight..

Just amazing how many folks have been using VT all these years without any VT training isn't it?

Just as amazing how many claim to teach VT while teaching something completely generic.

People have all kinds of "IDEAS" of how they believe fighting and fighting with WCK "should" be. These are the "concepts" people, the guys with the "right ideas". But to paraphrase Hawkins, "Theory is great but can YOU do it?"

And not against your own students (who you've programmed to act in certain ways) or against scrubs or against 10 year-olds or in chi sao, but against decently skilled and conditioned people who are really fighting you back -- like what you get at a MMA or MT gym.

Why is it that these "concepts" people never talk about how their "concepts" or "ideas" are working just fine down at the MMA or MT gym?

Instead of "concepts" or "ideas", look whether or not a person is able to do in fighting (against a conditioned and decently skilled opponent) what they train to do as they train to do it. That's the ONLY worthwhile test.

[JPinAZ]

LOL! Dude, I'm the ONLY one here on this forum who has said -- over and over again -- that I'm not that good. I KNOW that because I have trained with people who actually are very, very good

Sorry you suck and can't make you WC work. Not everyone here has the same problem, "Chessmaster"


I've listed many times before the places I train or have trained.

Still avoided the question. WHERE you've trained and WHO you've sparred/fought with are 2 very different things. Anyone can sign up at any gym and still be a scrub that isn't any good (like you)
It's clear you haven't "trained and sparred with any good, proven fighters". So while you might share the views of those that have, you are only nutriding on thier jocks since you haven't gotten those views from your own experience by the qualifications you've listed yourself.


You think sparring is different than fighting since FOR YOU they are different -- your sparring is unrealistic. Go spar at a MMA school or a MT school and then we'll talk again!

Sad thing is, you don't know what a real fight is like, so you only assume to know what each is. Gain some experience, then we'll talk.

[t_niehoff]

Sorry you suck and can't make you WC work. Not everyone here has the same problem, "Chessmaster"


Stop lying to yourself. You can't make your WCK work -- at least not against anyone who isn't a scrub. And that's because of the simple fact that if you aren't already doing it you won't be able to do it. In other words, if you aren't already mixing it up with good (MMA or MT) fighters you won't be able to deal with them. Period. End of story.

And that applies to anyone, including "grandmasters" and "masters" and "sifu".



Still avoided the question. WHERE you've trained and WHO you've sparred/fought with are 2 very different things. Anyone can sign up at any gym and still be a scrub that isn't any good (like you)
It's clear you haven't "trained and sparred with any good, proven fighters".


That you don't see that where you train and who you train with aren't two very different things, that they in fact are very much interdependent, shows that you really have no clue as to what goes on in GOOD gyms. Yes, anyone can sign up at a good MMA school -- but when you do, you will roll with everyone, from black belt to white belt, you'll spar with everyone, from pro MMA fighters to absolute beginners. What makes them good gyms is that you get to train alongside and spar with good, proven fighters. If not, it isn't a good gym!



So while you might share the views of those that have, you are only nutriding on thier jocks since you haven't gotten those views from your own experience by the qualifications you've listed yourself.


Every view I have I earned through experience -- isn't it abundantly clear that I don't take anyone's word for anything (you even pointed out how I disagreed with my own sifu!). I have said that I am not in Dale's league as a fighter -- he has vastly more experience than I am. But you don't need his level of experience to see reality -- you just have to go and experience reality yourself. Go train/spar at a MMA gym for some time and you'll experience reality.



Sad thing is, you don't know what a real fight is like, so you only assume to know what each is. Gain some experience, then we'll talk.

ROFLOL!

Oh, yeah! The "real fighting". ;)

[chusauli]

Right so 'fansao' and the concept/idea behind it is fantasy, and can't be used in a real fight... I think that says it all...as far as who knows what..

One of the core elements, that makes VT what it is, is about not trapping your own hands.. Can't be done? It has been done and is done...

Fighting using methods that trap your own hands, is fine.. People the world over do it, in fact it's natural.. So are lots of other techniques that have nothing to do with VT...

I know, VT is not a linear art, doesn't emphasize use of the line, BiuJee has a guillotine in it and VT uses the same timing and structure you see in a hockey fight..

Just amazing how many folks have been using VT all these years without any VT training isn't it?

Just as amazing how many claim to teach VT while teaching something completely generic.

Jim,

You're taking things out of context. Just because I say that Fan Sao doesn't work, you have to use your rational judgement in understanding why I am saying that. You have to understand the MMA event is a more sport event, but you rarely come across a bridge control type of fighter. When people are striking at you full speed and power, and retracting the arm, you have no bridge to stick against. WCK's trapping was designed against Hung Kuen and other Southern Fist that uses the bridges. Against boxing and Muay Thai, you hardly can see the Fan Sao you do in Chi Sao.

I already spoke about the incidental guillotine from Biu Jee. Its the mechanics. WCK inherently is not a kata done against opponents with Bunkai. Moves occur in the moment.

I gladly welcome you to call me and discuss this if you want, you can reach me at 626 487-1815.

Best wishes,

[goju]

No not really if they were better skilled they would be competing, those that have not competed have no idea about the training that is involved, about the big mental difference between sparring and fightinghttp

your notion is that if you comepte you must be good is as rediculous as saying if youre a martial arts then you automaticlaly can defend yourself lol


And why on earth do you bring Jackson into this...unless you are equating yourself and all us other are chair fighters with someone who trains with and coach’s great fighters and who has spent years becoming a great coach through trial and error..Do you put yourself in the same league as this guy?

well gee golly ger wilikers maybe because it is relevent to the topic at hand? XD

Exactly he has trained realistically. worked hard and learned what works or what doesnt through trial and error and gasp! all with out stepping into ANY type of competitive environment ! how can this be ?especially his sucess rate coaching fighters?

going by some peoples beliefs he should not have a d clue about what to do or who to train since he has never competed hismelf...yet he still does


Still let’s take Jackson and GSP...Do you think Jackson is more skilled or knowledgeable about grappling than GSP...I doubt it what he is skilled at is coaching the fighter to beat his opponent and implementing a fight strategy...why because this is what he does what he has experience in. His knowledge of the fight game comes from hands on experience just as a fighters knowledge comes from hands on experience, neither of which most arm chair fighters have

(shrugs) who knows? maybe he is maybe he isnt. Your assumption that most of us that havent competed yet dont have this or that is extremely naive.my coaches thoughts on my stand up was good enough for me i really could not care less what someone online has to say XD


If the level of skill is so low why aren't you out there beating them all up right now...serious question why not?


People always rag on amateur fighters saying the skill level is low etc but are reluctant to step up and show them are bad they are why I don't know.

sigh please dont twist my words i didnt say everyone at amatuer level was unskilled in fact the martial artist i was most impressed with was an amateur boxer and mma fighter

my point was that the way you act you would think that an amatuer or pro fighter has to pass through the 36 chambers of shaolin in order to qualify to compete XD


But for the record yes I feel someone who has been there and done it, regardless of winning or losing knows more about what it takes to get in there and do it and about what actually works than someone who has never been in that environment.


see this is the point i think people missed i should have clarified earlier when it comes to what works

you me and everybody else can only say what works for us given our physical capabilties

even a fighter cant say definitively that this is the only thing that works and this doesnt(with the exception of rediculous things like leap frogging over someone whos shoots or doinga back flip kick ala bruce lee in enter the dragon:rolleyes:) for another fighter may be able to do what he cant and vice versa

and various theories and beliefs have changed over time considering what works and what doesnt (in mma especially) provingmy point exactly

[JPinAZ]

Yes, anyone can sign up at a good MMA school -- but when you do, you will roll with everyone, from black belt to white belt, you'll spar with everyone, from pro MMA fighters to absolute beginners. What makes them good gyms is that you get to train alongside and spar with good, proven fighters. If not, it isn't a good gym!

You sound like an idiot sometimes when you talk. Yeah sure, anyone can sign up at a 'good gym'. But, that doesn't mean you WILL roll with anyone at all, or even show up. Or if you do, who's to say you don't just sit in the corner like at seminars and not train with anybody, good or bad ;)

If you knew what you were talking about, you'd realize it's not just the gym you signed up at that make you a good fighter, it's your proven skill you've developed thru that training. And you admittedly don't have any. So who cares what gym you 'are a member' at? If you still suck, what does it matter...

But again, you're still talking generalities, just like a cheap lawyer. You still haven't named ONE 'good' person you've actually trained with. Actually, there still isn't any proof that you train at all, period! Since you can't do that, the only thing that is proven is that you're still nutriding on those that DO train and spar with good proven fighters.
You can't even prove you still don't suck.

You haven't, or you would have given us the goods after the 4th chance..

Basically, all we've been able to gather from your ramblings is that you aren't any good.

[m1k3]

You sound like an idiot sometimes when you talk. Yeah sure, anyone can sign up at a 'good gym'. But, that doesn't mean you WILL roll with anyone at all, or even show up. Or if you do, who's to say you don't just sit in the corner like at seminars and not train with anybody, good or bad ;)



I have NO idea what you are talking about. I am training at my 3rd MMA gym, I train BJJ, and I have NEVER seen anyone sitting on the sidelines unless it was someone coming to see a class. And yes you end up rolling pretty much with everyone.

[m1k3]

well gee golly ger wilikers maybe because it is relevent to the topic at hand? XD

Exactly he has trained realistically. worked hard and learned what works or what doesnt through trial and error and gasp! all with out stepping into ANY type of competitive environment ! how can this be ?especially his sucess rate coaching fighters?

going by some peoples beliefs he should not have a d clue about what to do or who to train since he has never competed hismelf...yet he still does



Sorry but I have to disagree here. His students competed. By them competing he was able to test what worked and what didn't. Competition is still the crucible.

[YungChun]

You're taking things out of context. Just because I say that Fan Sao doesn't work, you have to use your rational judgement in understanding why I am saying that. You have to understand the MMA event is a more sport event, but you rarely come across a bridge control type of fighter. When people are striking at you full speed and power, and retracting the arm, you have no bridge to stick against.


VT does not seek to stick....



WCK's trapping was designed against Hung Kuen and other Southern Fist that uses the bridges. Against boxing and Muay Thai, you hardly can see the Fan Sao you do in Chi Sao.


I agree that many of the techniques will change or not be used in this case... However, the VT idea/tactic remains regardless of what they do and how they do it.. VT does not chase hands, we do not seek to stick.. VT is not "attached" (dirty clinch fighting). VT does not trap it's own hands..and lock up with the opponent.



I already spoke about the incidental guillotine from Biu Jee. Its the mechanics. WCK inherently is not a kata done against opponents with Bunkai. Moves occur in the moment.

Most karate isn't either... Just because some karate and some kata have bunkai doesn't make their kata a foo foo fight against opponents or their bunkai correct.. Most karateka have no clue what the kata means..

None of this will sell the Guillotine in BJ idea..



I gladly welcome you to call me and discuss this if you want, you can reach me at 626 487-1815.


Call you? :confused: Sorry you're not my type Robert.. ;) LOL

[sanjuro_ronin]

Most karateka have no clue what the kata means

This is true and it is twofold:
Sparring allows for kata to be "circumvented".
Most Kata bunkai don't work as well as a got shot to the nads.
:D

[YungChun]

People have all kinds of "IDEAS" of how they believe fighting and fighting with WCK "should" be. These are the "concepts" people, the guys with the "right ideas". But to paraphrase Hawkins, "Theory is great but can YOU do it?"

And not against your own students (who you've programmed to act in certain ways) or against scrubs or against 10 year-olds or in chi sao, but against decently skilled and conditioned people who are really fighting you back -- like what you get at a MMA or MT gym.

Why is it that these "concepts" people never talk about how their "concepts" or "ideas" are working just fine down at the MMA or MT gym?

Instead of "concepts" or "ideas", look whether or not a person is able to do in fighting (against a conditioned and decently skilled opponent) what they train to do as they train to do it. That's the ONLY worthwhile test.


Oh be quiet... Otherwise there'll be no ice cream for you tonight...

[YungChun]

This is true and it is twofold:
Sparring allows for kata to be "circumvented".
Most Kata bunkai don't work as well as a got shot to the nads.
:D

This is why CMA and JMA can both learn from each other....

[sanjuro_ronin]

This is why CMA and JMA can both learn from each other....

The typical applications of forms have become a tad obsolete and I have seen some of these "new" interpretations and, I got be honest, they are overly complicated and most fail horrible in practice.

Forms as a catalogue of techniques and principles is fine, but as "hidden" methods of combat and such, well...nope, sorry.

[JPinAZ]

I have NO idea what you are talking about. I am training at my 3rd MMA gym, I train BJJ, and I have NEVER seen anyone sitting on the sidelines unless it was someone coming to see a class. And yes you end up rolling pretty much with everyone.

Of course you don't, but my post was was directed to T, not you. And I'm sure he understands perfectly what I'm talking about. As far as sitting on the sidelines, or not 'showing up', it's T's specialty. It's an easy way to try to hide the fact that he's got no skill

[m1k3]

Obviously there is a lot of history I am missing here. :D

[Ultimatewingchun]

Indeed, there is...:rolleyes: :cool: ;)

[YungChun]

The typical applications of forms have become a tad obsolete and I have seen some of these "new" interpretations and, I got be honest, they are overly complicated and most fail horrible in practice.

Forms as a catalogue of techniques and principles is fine, but as "hidden" methods of combat and such, well...nope, sorry.

Wasn't talking about forms per se... More about methods and training..

Lots of folks in both JMA and CMA love the forms, for all kinds of reasons.. I see the VT forms as valid if taught correctly, including "de-forming" the students, but I am not a form fan.

[t_niehoff]

I have NO idea what you are talking about. I am training at my 3rd MMA gym, I train BJJ, and I have NEVER seen anyone sitting on the sidelines unless it was someone coming to see a class. And yes you end up rolling pretty much with everyone.

This is the theoretical guys' problem -- they have never really trained as fighters, never trained at a good gym but believe they know. And, they won't listen to anyone (you, me, Dale, etc.) who has and does train at good gyms and with good people. They are lost in their fantasy world and won't even make an effort to go see for themselves (which I suspect is just a part of their fantasy maintenance).

[t_niehoff]

Obviously there is a lot of history I am missing here. :D

What he is talking about is that I attended a "WCK Friendship Seminar" and didn't partake in SOME of the sessions -- because I thought they were nonsense presented by people who didn't know WTF they were doing.

He doesn't like me because I told him that HFY is a load of nonsense.

And, just to highlight the irony, this from a guy who emails me to tell me he is coming to "visit" me to show me the errors of my way but never shows up.

[HumbleWCGuy]

In what venue are you considering his skill level to be low? In grappling he competes in advanced masters divisions against the best there is, in stick fighting and edge weapon work he is an original dog brother and fights at most of the gatherings (and really stop with the insults have you seen now those guys fight each other Krauss would not humour him they go full out especially when the dogs fight each other...lunless you know him personally and can get him to tell us otherwise?).

In Thai back in the day he went to Japan to fight the best, in MMA he has fought full rules and has posted videos of this...I agree in MMA he might not be anywhere near the top but he is a lot closer than any of us on here so his opinion is worth a lot, and unless you or any of us want to actually post videos of ourselves fighting full contact then he his head and shoulders above all of us in that regard too

Dale is a good grappler and that is all that I am willing to give him credit for. As far as the Muay Thai experience, based on his movement in his videos and comments about kickboxing, I can't give him credit for having strong kickboxing fundamentals. Also, I have to hold Dale to his own standard, without documentation of his big Muay Thai fighting career, it did not happen. If he held to his own standard, he shouldn't even bring it up.

[t_niehoff]

VT does not seek to stick....

I agree that many of the techniques will change or not be used in this case... However, the VT idea/tactic remains regardless of what they do and how they do it.. VT does not chase hands, we do not seek to stick.. VT is not "attached" (dirty clinch fighting). VT does not trap it's own hands..and lock up with the opponent.

Most karate isn't either... Just because some karate and some kata have bunkai doesn't make their kata a foo foo fight against opponents or their bunkai correct.. Most karateka have no clue what the kata means..

None of this will sell the Guillotine in BJ idea..

Call you? :confused: Sorry you're not my type Robert.. ;) LOL

The method of WCK (the faat, the strategic approach) comes from our ancestors, and you see it across lineage. You should really learn it. Without it, WCK is a puzzle. The faat is the map, the organizing principle, for putting the pieces of the puzzle together.

[JPinAZ]

What he is talking about is that I attended a "WCK Friendship Seminar" and didn't partake in SOME of the sessions -- because I thought they were nonsense presented by people who didn't know WTF they were doing.

He doesn't like me because I told him that HFY is a load of nonsense.

And, just to highlight the irony, this from a guy who emails me to tell me he is coming to "visit" me to show me the errors of my way but never shows up.

A bunch of BS from a horible lawyer that defends guilty criminals. That should give an idea of this guy's character.
I don't know him personally, so I can't say if I like HIM or not. I am just calling him on the constant BS he spews here every time he posts. He's a poser with admittedly no skill, but acts like he's in league with the guys he nutrides on, which he's not.
He coulnd't make his past arts work agains WCK, so started learning that. Couldn't make his crap WCK work against anybody and now trains MMA. 25+ years later and he still admits he's not good at any of it, so he's turned into bitter and disillusioned little troll of a man.

As for me coming to see him, I hope my work does end up sending me out that way one day ;) But he's crazy if he thinks I would spend my own money and time on a scrub like him. I'm done with this guy. Sorry I wasted so much bandwith on the blowhard, nutriding, skilless poser.

[Pacman]

VT does not seek to stick....



if WC does not seek to stick then what is the idea behind sticky hands?

[YungChun]

if WC does not seek to stick then what is the idea behind sticky hands?

If you'd read any number of posts by myself or others here you would know.. There is some difference of opinion on this apparently..

As seen touched on by this recent post:


Terence [aka ocd dude] is trying to twist the kuit to suit his needs...and make vt dirty clinch fighting. VT isnt dirty clinch fighting. Thats a drill modification, many do it. It can and will be taken apart by a proficient vt FIGHTER ,only takes less than 2 minutes sparring to convince people :D.

Think...if you train to control my arms but I train to circumvent attempts to control my arms and hit simultaneously constantly , relentlessly , who theoretically would have a better % favor in a fight..the guy hitting constantly attacking, or the guy seeking to control and feel before striking, control meaning seeking to stop my arms first. ?

Note that this doesn't mean we are never in contact, never stick or never issue energy, we do.. when needed.

[Knifefighter]

Dale is a good grappler and that is all that I am willing to give him credit for. As far as the Muay Thai experience, based on his movement in his videos and comments about kickboxing, I can't give him credit for having strong kickboxing fundamentals. Also, I have to hold Dale to his own standard, without documentation of his big Muay Thai fighting career, it did not happen. If he held to his own standard, he shouldn't even bring it up.

I've put up vids of me doing grappling, Dog Bros stickfighting, and MMA fights without gloves. I'll tell you what. There are at least partial records of each of these documenting that I have done them. Since that's what I've got documentation on, I'll stick to just those things.

You stick to the things you have documentation on, OK?

Oh, wait a minute... then you wouldn't be able to post at all on anything.

[Vajramusti]

if WC does not seek to stick then what is the idea behind sticky hands?

_______It's (chi sao) called sticky hand (s)_ in translation- don't always stick!!
Wing chun is full of paradoxes.

joy chaudhuri

[HumbleWCGuy]

I've put up vids of me doing grappling, Dog Bros stickfighting, and MMA fights without gloves. I'll tell you what. There are at least partial records of each of these documenting that I have done them. Since that's what I've got documentation on, I'll stick to just those things.

You stick to the things you have documentation on, OK?

Oh, wait a minute... then you wouldn't be able to post at all on anything.

Your "partial record," indicates that you suck at upright fighting and your posts indicate that you have no business trying to act as an authority on any board concerning upright fighting. I am less concerned about what you may or may not have done and more concerned about your lack of knowledge concerning the subject matter of this board and your obvious trolling.

[Ultimatewingchun]

A bunch of BS from a horible lawyer that defends guilty criminals. That should give an idea of this guy's character.
I don't know him personally, so I can't say if I like HIM or not. I am just calling him on the constant BS he spews here every time he posts. He's a poser with admittedly no skill, but acts like he's in league with the guys he nutrides on, which he's not.
He coulnd't make his past arts work agains WCK, so started learning that. Couldn't make his crap WCK work against anybody and now trains MMA. 25+ years later and he still admits he's not good at any of it, so he's turned into bitter and disillusioned little troll of a man.

As for me coming to see him, I hope my work does end up sending me out that way one day ;) But he's crazy if he thinks I would spend my own money and time on a scrub like him. I'm done with this guy. Sorry I wasted so much bandwith on the blowhard, nutriding, skilless poser.

***I'M TELLING YA, JP....

Putting this guy on the IGNORE LIST is one of the best things I've ever done around here. Constantly going over the same garbage with him has no upside. :rolleyes: ;) :cool:

[Knifefighter]

Your "partial record," indicates that you suck at upright fighting and your posts indicate that you have no business trying to act as an authority on any board concerning upright fighting. I am less concerned about what you may or may not have done and more concerned about your lack of knowledge concerning the subject matter of this board and your obvious trolling.

This coming from a video trained "martial artist"... lol. If anyone is a troll with lack of knowledge, it would be you.

[t_niehoff]

A bunch of BS from a horible lawyer that defends guilty criminals. That should give an idea of this guy's character.


Seems like I touched a nerve.

I understand that you can't talk substance with me since you have no substance.



I don't know him personally, so I can't say if I like HIM or not. I am just calling him on the constant BS he spews here every time he posts. He's a poser with admittedly no skill, but acts like he's in league with the guys he nutrides on, which he's not.


I never said that I don't have any skill -- I just say that I'm not that good. At least not compared to what I consider good. Of course, that doesn't mean I'm not light years ahead of the theoretical nonfighters. But, at least I'm not delusional.

Telling people that it is worth listening to guys with experience that know what they are talking about isn't "nutriding". What makes you angry is that I also tell people not to listen to the people -- like you -- who don't have a clue.

And, please, people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.



He coulnd't make his past arts work agains WCK, so started learning that. Couldn't make his crap WCK work against anybody and now trains MMA. 25+ years later and he still admits he's not good at any of it, so he's turned into bitter and disillusioned little troll of a man.


Funny, but in the paragraph above you say that you never met me -- but you know all about me?! LOL!

All you can do is what Victor does (you guys are two peas in a pod): resort to personal name calling, and can never point to anything substantive (evidence or reason) to back up any of your claims or criticisms. I understand. You guys are intellectually bankrupt, so all you can do is make up sh1t.

WCK will work IF -- the BIG "IF" -- you train it like a fighter. It's not the art, it is how you train that really matters. You are only as good as your sparring partners.



As for me coming to see him, I hope my work does end up sending me out that way one day ;) But he's crazy if he thinks I would spend my own money and time on a scrub like him. I'm done with this guy. Sorry I wasted so much bandwith on the blowhard, nutriding, skilless poser.

ROFLOL! Yeah, YOU HOPE your work sends you out to see me. ;) A nancy boy like you will never come to see me just like you'll never walk into a MMA gym. Theoretical nonfighters are just that: nonfighters.

[HumbleWCGuy]

This coming from a video trained "martial artist"... lol. If anyone is a troll with lack of knowledge, it would be you.

This thread is pretty well representative of your M.O. You post one or two things that demonstrate your lack of knowledge and skill and then spend the rest of the time accusing everyone else of not knowing what they are doing. Your posts speak for themselves. There is nothing you can do to save face. Your internet Warriordom is becoming legendary. I am sure that you have thousands of posts on multiple boards all with the same arrogant, misguided, and factually incorrect nonsense.

[t_niehoff]

If you'd read any number of posts by myself or others here you would know.. There is some difference of opinion on this apparently..

As seen touched on by this recent post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by k gledhill View Post
Terence [aka ocd dude] is trying to twist the kuit to suit his needs...and make vt dirty clinch fighting. VT isnt dirty clinch fighting. Thats a drill modification, many do it. It can and will be taken apart by a proficient vt FIGHTER ,only takes less than 2 minutes sparring to convince people .


Bullsh1t. Pure fantasy. Gledhill's NEVER met a "proficient WCK fighter." NEVER. Because they ONLY way to become a proficient fighter, regardless of the style, is by putting in hundreds of hours SPARRING WITH VERY GOOD FIGHTERS. And, he hasn't done that nor has he met anyone who has, including his sifu.

The trouble is when I talk about controlling the opponent while striking, guys like
Gledhill don't have a clue as to what I'm talking about. That's clear from what he says. Like this:



Quote:
Originally Posted by k gledhill View Post

Think...if you train to control my arms but I train to circumvent attempts to control my arms and hit simultaneously constantly , relentlessly , who theoretically would have a better % favor in a fight..the guy hitting constantly attacking, or the guy seeking to control and feel before striking, control meaning seeking to stop my arms first. ?


Clueless. Absolutely clueless. He's so lost in his theoretical drivel ("think . . .") and apparently has never learned the WCK method (faat), that he doesn't get it.



Note that this doesn't mean we are never in contact, never stick or never issue energy, we do.. when needed.


Anyone who fights on the inside will NEED to control the opponent because if they don't, the opponent will control you. That's simply a fact of fighting. WCK's method gives us an organized way (a strategy) to go about getting and using that control. That's not the only way to go about it, MMA people do it to, using a different approach, as do MT people. All anyone needs to do is to fight on the inside -- put in the work -- and they'll see that for themselves. Or, they can live in Kev's and Jim's fantasy VT world.

[JPinAZ]

ROFLOL! Yeah, YOU HOPE your work sends you out to see me. ;) A nancy boy like you will never come to see me just like you'll never walk into a MMA gym. Theoretical nonfighters are just that: nonfighters.

Seems I touched a nerve.

All you can do is resort to personal name calling, and can never point to anything substantive (evidence or reason) of your own to back up any of your claims or criticisms.

Case closed.

[YungChun]

Anyone who fights on the inside will NEED to control the opponent because if they don't, the opponent will control you. That's simply a fact of fighting. WCK's method gives us an organized way (a strategy) to go about getting and using that control. That's not the only way to go about it, MMA people do it to, using a different approach, as do MT people. All anyone needs to do is to fight on the inside -- put in the work -- and they'll see that for themselves. Or, they can live in Kev's and Jim's fantasy VT world.

No, you don't get it. :)

There are times when you need to clear/hit.

There are times when you need to issue "contact" force/hit.

There are times when you need to "trap"/hit.

There are times when you need only hit.

The default is hit..we see hit in all cases..

If the guy is open and unable to offer resistance (say his parry fails) there is no need to "attach" until and unless the attack is interrupted.. THAT'S VT.

He cannot control us while his structure is busted and should he recover he must interrupt our attack... When our attack is interrupted he is in our space... THAT is the flow..

Attack--Interrupt--Change--Attack

See it's not just fighting good people with you, it's you have to do it my way.. Otherwise you're doing it wrong.. NOT! YOU got it wrong brother. You think you can whip everyone's else's butt who doesn't use your interpretation? Good luck with that.. You'd be desperately trying to get a take down and praying.

Anyone can see that the majority of the techniques in VT do not "attach" in the conventional sense, in the sense of what grappler's do.. The techniques you see in VT are methods of removing obstructions; going around obstructions; and clearing away obstructions...

In none of the above do we see "attachment" in the sense of grappling because all those moves/techniques are all changes, meaning they don't stay for more than a moment and they only assist the striking. When there is no need to clear a path, when there is no need to open a path, IOW a path exists we simply use that path..

Moreover, the strikes which you admit do break structure also don't attach which you say you must do to break structure.. (see how your half pregnant on this one?) This is yet another major brain f art on your part which tells me you need more shock therapy..

Your theory is flawed and conflicted..

You also dismiss and deny other core system tactics.. However since you can only tell the theory and not show it there is nothing of any substance, there is no evidence that you do VT.. For the most part you and your group are the only ones who think you're doing VT to be honest..

You could prove it by simply showing it.. But I know you can't do that because then your theory and your colorful interpretation of the "faat" with MMA moves built into it would be seen for what it ISN'T----VT.



Or, they can live in Kev's and Jim's fantasy VT world.


Let's just say for the sake of argument, that Kev consistently kicked your ass in sparring..

How, if at all, would this change your position on these issues?

[Frost]

Dale is a good grappler and that is all that I am willing to give him credit for. As far as the Muay Thai experience, based on his movement in his videos and comments about kickboxing, I can't give him credit for having strong kickboxing fundamentals. Also, I have to hold Dale to his own standard, without documentation of his big Muay Thai fighting career, it did not happen. If he held to his own standard, he shouldn't even bring it up.

I agree he is a good grappler, and from the clips he has posted i would say his stick and knife stuff is very good too, or would you say otherwise? as for his stand up his MMA clips showed some really nice clinch and knee stuff, this added to the fact that unlike a lot of people around here he has
a) actually posted clips of himself and
b) had his previous claims to be a bjj blackbelt, dog brother and MMA fighter backed up by records and independant witnesses
tends to make me give him the benifit of the doubt on the thai thing but hey call me a nutrider for that one:)

[goju]

there are fighters though that lie about their exploits cough cough rickson gracie cough:D

as i said before this board may be full of guys who are good or maybe we all all suck lol:D

[t_niehoff]

No, you don't get it. :)

There are times when you need to clear/hit.

There are times when you need to issue "contact" force/hit.

There are times when you need to "trap"/hit.

There are times when you need only hit.

The default is hit..we see hit in all cases..

If the guy is open and unable to offer resistance (say his parry fails) there is no need to "attach" until and unless the attack is interrupted.. THAT'S VT.

He cannot control us while his structure is busted and should he recover he must interrupt our attack... When our attack is interrupted he is in our space... THAT is the flow..

Attack--Interrupt--Change--Attack

See it's not just fighting good people with you, it's you have to do it my way.. Otherwise you're doing it wrong.. NOT! YOU got it wrong brother. You think you can whip everyone's else's butt who doesn't use your interpretation? Good luck with that.. You'd be desperately trying to get a take down and praying.

Anyone can see that the majority of the techniques in VT do not "attach" in the conventional sense, in the sense of what grappler's do.. The techniques you see in VT are methods of removing obstructions; going around obstructions; and clearing away obstructions...

In none of the above do we see "attachment" in the sense of grappling because all those moves/techniques are all changes, meaning they don't stay for more than a moment and they only assist the striking. When there is no need to clear a path, when there is no need to open a path, IOW a path exists we simply use that path..

Moreover, the strikes which you admit do break structure also don't attach which you say you must do to break structure.. (see how your half pregnant on this one?) This is yet another major brain f art on your part which tells me you need more shock therapy..

Your theory is flawed and conflicted..

You also dismiss and deny other core system tactics.. However since you can only tell the theory and not show it there is nothing of any substance, there is no evidence that you do VT.. For the most part you and your group are the only ones who think you're doing VT to be honest..

You could prove it by simply showing it.. But I know you can't do that because then your theory and your colorful interpretation of the "faat" with MMA moves built into it would be seen for what it ISN'T----VT.


You seem to have duplicated your post on another thread-- which I answered there:

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1006354&postcount=26



Let's just say for the sake of argument, that Kev consistently kicked your ass in sparring..

How, if at all, would this change your position on these issues?

All anyone needs to do to convince me of anything is SHOW that they can do it (whatever it is) in fighting against competent (MMA or MT or etc.) fighters.

I have said that I'm not that good. To illustate: I'm not that good on the ground. But, for someone to consistently beat me on the ground, you'll need to be a solid purple or better. And that means you'll need to have put in 400-500 hours of sparring, much of it with very good people. If someone has done that work, they'll consistently beat me.

It's the same with stand-up. I'm not that good, but to beat me someone will need to have put in more than I have of the right kind of work. So, if a person has put in well over several hundreds of hours of sparring, and much of it with very good people, then they'll beat me. If they haven't done that work, just like on the ground, they won't.

It all boils down to the amount of quality sparring you've done.

[Frost]

there are fighters though that lie about their exploits cough cough rickson gracie cough:D

as i said before this board may be full of guys who are good or maybe we all all suck lol:D

I’m not getting into your feelings about the graices we have been over this before and yes people lie about their exploits etc,

the funny thing is Dale never bragged about his achievements it was others on here years ago that ousted him as a dog brother and BJJ blackbelt (as if that was going to help them discredit him lol) and goaded him into putting up videos of himself.... and personally when someone has made claims to be a BJJ blackbelt, a dog brother and MMA fighter and all those things have been proven I tend to cut him slack on things that we can't prove, just as how when someone can't post videos of themselves I tend to disbelieve them until proven otherwise, especially when what they say and the comments they make go against what I know and have experienced

[goju]

I’m not getting into your feelings about the graices we have been over this before and yes people lie about their exploits etc,

the funny thing is Dale never bragged about his achievements it was others on here years ago that ousted him as a dog brother and BJJ blackbelt (as if that was going to help them discredit him lol) and goaded him into putting up videos of himself.... and personally when someone has made claims to be a BJJ blackbelt, a dog brother and MMA fighter and all those things have been proven I tend to cut him slack on things that we can't prove, just as how when someone can't post videos of themselves I tend to disbelieve them until proven otherwise, especially when what they say and the comments they make go against what I know and have experienced

i never viewed it that as such the blackbelt should mean something if it was from a legit school

as far as the dog brothers go i really have no clue about( no really interested in weapon stuff) them outside of the fact they whack each other with sticks full force

[HumbleWCGuy]

I agree he is a good grappler, and from the clips he has posted i would say his stick and knife stuff is very good too, or would you say otherwise? as for his stand up his MMA clips showed some really nice clinch and knee stuff, this added to the fact that unlike a lot of people around here he has
a) actually posted clips of himself and
b) had his previous claims to be a bjj blackbelt, dog brother and MMA fighter backed up by records and independant witnesses
tends to make me give him the benifit of the doubt on the thai thing but hey call me a nutrider for that one:)

I would like to give anyone the benefit of the doubt. I am not on this board to debate or question credentials. I just want to talk about other brands of wing chun and discuss kung fu. But, Dale seems to force the issue.

Here is what I know about Dale Frank:

He believes that WC doesn't work as he has stated over and over again.

He has no Wing Chun credentials to base his judgments on.

Twice now he has posted clips to show "effective Wing Chun" which make me call into question what he knows about WC.

He admits to trolling on the internet to those who he has met in person.

He believes that he is being persecuted by members of this board for his beliefs that sparring and fitness are the foundations for solid martial arts, yet I have seen no posts that have vilified him for his views over the last year.


My problems with Dale's kickboxing to name a few:

First, a bjj blackbelt who goes 2-1 in smoker mma fights only does so for lack of upright fighting skill.

Second, kickboxing back in the 80's and 90's and now is the only sport where you can make your professional debut and receive a title fight all in the same fight. There are a number of titles that are vacant with no one to fight for them. In addition, back in the 80's and early 90's there wasn't much Asian style kickboxing around so it was pretty easy to go out and smoke some American kick boxers and look a lot better than you were. Championships in kickboxing back then and now can be of uncertain significance on some level. Dale never even held a title to my knowledge so what does that mean? All we can say about his kickboxing career is that he had the guts to get out there to train hard and fight a few times.

Third, I was discussing the use of standing arm bar/arm lock to control opponents and he swore up and down that I didn't know what I was talking about until I found a clip to show. Then in an honest moment he admitted that I was correct before he continued his trolling.

Fourth, it is very rare for someone to have had a big kickboxing career to continue to fight and train hard into their late 30's and 40's. The body just gets too broken down generally. His success in masters grappling has me wondering.

Finally, his sparring with Rashun was just icing on the cake as far as I am concerned. It figures in to my analysis very little. I had drawn my conclusions about Dale long before I had seen that clip.

[shawchemical]

You're clueless about VTK Terrence.

It's really as simple as that.

[Ultimatewingchun]

HumbleGuy:

Don't judge Dale Frank by the very light sparring he did with Rahsun Herkul, because it proved basically nothing either way....including the fact that you may not have seen the clips wherein Dale took Rahsun down about three times - as well as the fact that in standup Dale couldn't really penetrate what Rahsun was doing....and Rahsun wasn't even throwing any punches with real intent.

Would he have hurt Dale if he was? We don't know from those vids...

Could Dale have countered such an attack with a successful takedown? Followed by putting a hurt on Rahsun once on the ground? We don't know that from those vids either....

So there's nothing definitive to conclude about either man's fighting skills by watching some (or all) of the Rahsun/Dale vids.

Now if you want to blast Dale for his constant trolling...hey, that's another matter entirely!!! :cool:

[anerlich]

He admits to trolling on the internet to those who he has met in person.

Great Gosh Amighty. How can the cad live with himself? :rolleyes:


He believes that he is being persecuted by members of this board for his beliefs that sparring and fitness are the foundations for solid martial arts, yet I have seen no posts that have vilified him for his views over the last year.

I doubt he honestly believes that and probably said something remotely resembling it once. In any case, I don't think he GAF what people think or say about him. He's a lot less precious about that than a lot of other people on this forum.

Of course no one seriously believes sparring and fitness have any relevance to solid martial arts :rolleyes:

If you think the clip he posted is no good, show us something better, preferably featuring yourself. I disagree with your assessment of it, even though that probably makes me a troll in your eyes.

[LSWCTN1]

No, you don't get it. :)

There are times when you need to clear/hit.

There are times when you need to issue "contact" force/hit.

There are times when you need to "trap"/hit.

There are times when you need only hit.

The default is hit..we see hit in all cases..


unfortunately, i agree with T here :o

and YungChun too.

we learn that we must always 'destroy the walls before attacking the castle' or not 'headhunt'

we are taught to control the opponent at all times, and the things you posted are all examples of the DIFFERENT ways of doing so.

i dont think that T is saying you ALWAYS need to be stuck, just that you need to control the bridge. the bridge is the 'crossing' from you to your opponent. if he has no bridge then you create a bridge.

not by mor? kui, but by striking and closing his opportunity to strike you. this is of course the same strike as K Gledhill always talks about, so I doubt that his and T's theories are that different actually...

like on many things, i actually think T is correct. but like a lawyer who cant attack a watertight argument (case) he attacks the character of the person making that case...

[Frost]

i never viewed it that as such the blackbelt should mean something if it was from a legit school

as far as the dog brothers go i really have no clue about( no really interested in weapon stuff) them outside of the fact they whack each other with sticks full force

i was not talking about you this was years before you joined we ae taling early 2000's i think, a BJJ blackbelt from any BJJ school is a huge thing, not many have them it means he can really grapple

being a dog brother simply means in terms of full contact fighting (with weapons but also without) he really knows what he is talking about

[HumbleWCGuy]

Great Gosh Amighty. How can the cad live with himself? :rolleyes:



I doubt he honestly believes that and probably said something remotely resembling it once. In any case, I don't think he GAF what people think or say about him. He's a lot less precious about that than a lot of other people on this forum.
The point is that he is a disruptive fool who needs to be banned not whether he can live with himself or cares what people think.

[t_niehoff]

unfortunately, i agree with T here :o

and YungChun too.

we learn that we must always 'destroy the walls before attacking the castle' or not 'headhunt'

we are taught to control the opponent at all times, and the things you posted are all examples of the DIFFERENT ways of doing so.

i dont think that T is saying you ALWAYS need to be stuck, just that you need to control the bridge. the bridge is the 'crossing' from you to your opponent. if he has no bridge then you create a bridge.


A bridge doesn't necessarily have anything to do with being in contact your opponent's hands/arms. A bridge is a connection between you and your opponent, an attachment. To control someone I need to have a connection to him, a bridge is that connection. It's just that often that bridge involves an opponent's hands/arms since they tend to have a nasty habit of putting their hands/arms between us.



not by mor? kui, but by striking and closing his opportunity to strike you. this is of course the same strike as K Gledhill always talks about, so I doubt that his and T's theories are that different actually...


Mine isn't a theory, it is what I do (or try to do, anyway). When you are on the inside, regardless of your style, you need to control your opponent. If you don't, terrible things happen.



like on many things, i actually think T is correct. but like a lawyer who cant attack a watertight argument (case) he attacks the character of the person making that case...

Point out where I have attacked anyone's character.

[LSWCTN1]

A bridge doesn't necessarily have anything to do with being in contact your opponent's hands/arms. A bridge is a connection between you and your opponent, an attachment. To control someone I need to have a connection to him, a bridge is that connection. It's just that often that bridge involves an opponent's hands/arms since they tend to have a nasty habit of putting their hands/arms between us.

this was eactly the point i was trying to make


Mine isn't a theory, it is what I do (or try to do, anyway). When you are on the inside, regardless of your style, you need to control your opponent. If you don't, terrible things happen.

it IS a theory. i was saying nothing derogatory by using the word theory, please see definition 1 of the below...
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/theory



Point out where I have attacked anyone's character.

you know what? you're right and i apologise. there i was thinking that the following posts, just from the first page where insulting someones character...

http://martial.securesites.net/forum/showpost.php?p=1006354&postcount=26
http://martial.securesites.net/forum/showpost.php?p=1006299&postcount=23
http://martial.securesites.net/forum/showpost.php?p=1006295&postcount=227
http://martial.securesites.net/forum/showpost.php?p=1006290&postcount=225
http://martial.securesites.net/forum/showpost.php?p=1006031&postcount=198
http://martial.securesites.net/forum/showpost.php?p=1005850&postcount=163
http://martial.securesites.net/forum/showpost.php?p=1005845&postcount=162

:p

i actually agree with you on a lot of things, but you're just a bit of a pompous azz

[Matrix]

The point is that he is a disruptive fool who needs to be banned not whether he can live with himself or cares what people think.Ah come on. You can't ban someone for something like that. This place would be a lot more boring without Terrence and Dale.

[Frost]

The point is that he is a disruptive fool who needs to be banned not whether he can live with himself or cares what people think.

why is he disruptive and a fool, becuase he says things like wing chun won't work in the cage and makes remarks about full contact fighting and grappling......is it so radical to ask for proof from people who say this or that would work?

as for the points you raised in another post to me, Dale is as far as i know a professional S ac C coach so its not unreasonable to assume he looks after himself and knows how to rehab so that probably extended his career somewhat, his thai fights were a while ago and he admits he is more of a grappler these days.......but this does not mean he still doesn't train it or have knowledge of it and he has faught more than 3 times in MMA (the clips he posted were bare knuckle and they would have been before stats were kept on small comps) but even if his record was 2 and 1 thats still a better record than anyone else on here so when it comes to what works in MMA and full contact he still has more expereince than anyone else.

As for judging him on the play fight stuff thats pointless (as Victor pointed out) h*ll i look like that when playing with my old kung fu buddies....why not judge him on his full contact clips i did and i saw nice striking and some really good clinch work what did you think of them?

[t_niehoff]

it IS a theory. i was saying nothing derogatory by using the word theory, please see definition 1 of the below...
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/theory


And I'm saying that what I do is NOT a "theory" -- because I am doing it. My BJJ isn't a theory and neither is my WCK.



you know what? you're right and i apologise. there i was thinking that the following posts, just from the first page where insulting someones character...

http://martial.securesites.net/forum/showpost.php?p=1006354&postcount=26
http://martial.securesites.net/forum/showpost.php?p=1006299&postcount=23
http://martial.securesites.net/forum/showpost.php?p=1006295&postcount=227
http://martial.securesites.net/forum/showpost.php?p=1006290&postcount=225
http://martial.securesites.net/forum/showpost.php?p=1006031&postcount=198
http://martial.securesites.net/forum/showpost.php?p=1005850&postcount=163
http://martial.securesites.net/forum/showpost.php?p=1005845&postcount=162


Saying someone's views are wrong or that they don't know what they are talking about isn't insulting someone's character.



i actually agree with you on a lot of things, but you're just a bit of a pompous azz

I'm pompous? I assume you mean "arrogant"? Yet, I'm the ONLY guy on the forum who admits he's not that good.

I don't think it arrogant or pompous to point out BS and nonsense -- which is pervasive in WCK -- when you see it.

[Knifefighter]

I would like to give anyone the benefit of the doubt. I am not on this board to debate or question credentials. I just want to talk about other brands of wing chun and discuss kung fu. But, Dale seems to force the issue.

Here is what I know about Dale Frank:

He believes that WC doesn't work as he has stated over and over again.

He has no Wing Chun credentials to base his judgments on.

Twice now he has posted clips to show "effective Wing Chun" which make me call into question what he knows about WC.

He admits to trolling on the internet to those who he has met in person.

He believes that he is being persecuted by members of this board for his beliefs that sparring and fitness are the foundations for solid martial arts, yet I have seen no posts that have vilified him for his views over the last year.


My problems with Dale's kickboxing to name a few:

First, a bjj blackbelt who goes 2-1 in smoker mma fights only does so for lack of upright fighting skill.

Second, kickboxing back in the 80's and 90's and now is the only sport where you can make your professional debut and receive a title fight all in the same fight. There are a number of titles that are vacant with no one to fight for them. In addition, back in the 80's and early 90's there wasn't much Asian style kickboxing around so it was pretty easy to go out and smoke some American kick boxers and look a lot better than you were. Championships in kickboxing back then and now can be of uncertain significance on some level. Dale never even held a title to my knowledge so what does that mean? All we can say about his kickboxing career is that he had the guts to get out there to train hard and fight a few times.

Third, I was discussing the use of standing arm bar/arm lock to control opponents and he swore up and down that I didn't know what I was talking about until I found a clip to show. Then in an honest moment he admitted that I was correct before he continued his trolling.

Fourth, it is very rare for someone to have had a big kickboxing career to continue to fight and train hard into their late 30's and 40's. The body just gets too broken down generally. His success in masters grappling has me wondering.

Finally, his sparring with Rashun was just icing on the cake as far as I am concerned. It figures in to my analysis very little. I had drawn my conclusions about Dale long before I had seen that clip.

1- I believe the way the majority of people train WC, means it will mostly work against smaller, lesser skilled opponents. I believe Alan and his guys have proven that you can make it work if you train it and use it differently than the way people who have the views that you do.

2- I probably have more WC credentials than you do. I have stated my WC background several times. You have only referenced video training in your posts about your background.

3- I admit it is funny to see guys like you get riled up. That doesn't mean I make things up or state views that I don't believe in.

4- I don't feel "persecuted". I understand that this is a WC forum and many people will disagree with me. I do know that you often make straight up lies. That doesn't make me feel persecuted. It makes you a dishonest liar.

5- If anything, I disagree that fitness is what makes the fighter. While believe it plays an important role, I completely disagree with people who state that MMA fighters are only good because of their conditioning and use of "supplements."

6- I've stated my MMA record before. I fought in several no-gloved MMA fights before they were sanctioned in CA. My overall record was 10-3.

7- I never said you were right about the standing arm bar. You were wrong and still are. You don't even know what an arm bar is.

The fact is, you refuse to state any background on yourself, yet make things up about other people. I would say that, overall, that would make you the troll who should be banned.

Moderator(s), what do you think?

[HumbleWCGuy]

1- I believe the way the majority of people train WC, means it will mostly work against smaller, lesser skilled opponents. I believe Alan and his guys have proven that you can make it work if you train it and use it differently than the way people who have the views that you do.

2- I probably have more WC credentials than you do. I have stated my WC background several times. You have only referenced video training in your posts about your background.

3- I admit it is funny to see guys like you get riled up. That doesn't mean I make things up or state views that I don't believe in.

4- I don't feel "persecuted". I understand that this is a WC forum and many people will disagree with me. I do know that you often make straight up lies. That doesn't make me feel persecuted. It makes you a dishonest liar.

5- If anything, I disagree that fitness is what makes the fighter. While believe it plays an important role, I completely disagree with people who state that MMA fighters are only good because of their conditioning and use of "supplements."

6- I've stated my MMA record before. I fought in several no-gloved MMA fights before they were sanctioned in CA. My overall record was 10-3.

7- I never said you were right about the standing arm bar. You were wrong and still are. You don't even know what an arm bar is.

The fact is, you refuse to state any background on yourself, yet make things up about other people. I would say that, overall, that would make you the troll who should be banned.

Moderator(s), what do you think?

Please Dale tell me what I have made up?

[sanjuro_ronin]

I don't moderate the WC forum, and I feel for sihing who does !
LOL !

But I would soon ban an anonymous "tow the line" , " I have the real WC" troll than a "you guys suck" troll that is NOT anonymous and actually has more practical MA experience that the majority of people on this whole forum.
That said Dale, and I have the highest respect for you and what you have done, your constant claim that everyone that doesn't fight full contact in a MMA environment is a "fantasy fighter" is, well, Old and tired and it seems that, at least in the WC, is falling on deaf ears.
You are shouting into a hurricane.
Sorry.

[HumbleWCGuy]

I don't moderate the WC forum, and I feel for sihing who does !
LOL !

But I would soon ban an anonymous "tow the line" , " I have the real WC" troll than a "you guys suck" troll that is NOT anonymous and actually has more practical MA experience that the majority of people on this whole forum.
That said Dale, and I have the highest respect for you and what you have done, your constant claim that everyone that doesn't fight full contact in a MMA environment is a "fantasy fighter" is, well, Old and tired and it seems that, at least in the WC, is falling on deaf ears.
You are shouting into a hurricane.
Sorry.

Are you mad because I don't believe in chi now?