Friendly debate on weight distribution in shifting

[edward]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeDDSVaBXvg

[JPinAZ]

I'd agree with the 50/50 weight distribution as well as not moving your center left/right. I'd also add you don't bounce up and down as well, but it looks like they have that covered.

The shifting the laan sau at 4:20 mark is a bit funky IMO as they are creating a distortion in his facing and between their upper and lower parts. But then, I don't 'shift' too much like this in application anyway.
As I see it, this is just a drill for beginners to understand self CL, maintaining proper whole-body facing and balance control. Typically in application, we pick the feet up when we move, even when shifting/changing the lines, but there are exceptions.

[Pacman]

this is funny. i learned the exact opposite.

i learned to shift 0/100 and the fact that you are moving around the centerline is one of the whole points of that.

[YungChun]

My position on some of this stuff, at least as it relates to the forms... is... That some of the positions and actions in the forms are intended to be extreme.. Some positions test balance, develop strength, or develop a mechanic, it may serve to get you familiar with an undesirable position or condition so you can get out of it or even better use it to your advantage..

So IOW as far as what the forms may have you do, it may not be the preferred action, position or it may be extreme to develop an idea.. This doesn't mean it's wrong, or represent what you should do all the time (preferred positions or actions) or even by choice.. Context is everything..and much of the actions we see in the forms are abstractions of ideas, positions and tools.

[imperialtaichi]

Shifting differently for different purpose.

Sometimes 50/50 for pure rotation, sometimes 30/70 to dissolve an attack, sometimes 80/20 to rotate the strike into the opponent. 0/100 momentarily for mobility.

Moving up and down? Not so much "bouncing" but almost like "falling" through the fist/elbow into the opponent to maximize utilization of the body mass.

In general, I see rules as guides for training beginners. Ultimately, all rules are to be broken. Fight free of inhibitions.

Cheers,
John

[Vajramusti]

That is one of the other ways of turning. Leung Sheun, William Cheung... are some of the other ways of doing it.
Learning the balancing in chum kiu practice allows one to develop/approach all sorts of footwork and adjust to all sorts of motions and different pressures/forces without coming apart or collapsing.
Wow- this can result in "debates" -hopefully civil-between different wing chun folks and setting aside the usual trolling.

joy chaudhuri

[Pacman]

interestingly, another thing 100% opposite is that i learned to shift with the legs. this is where you get the power from

o yeah, also we are on our toes, not our heels.

wow this is like "bizzarro" wing chun to me, hello is goodbye and down is up

i agree, different contexts are important when applying a technique. when i said 0/100 i forgot to say that in practice we do that to develop leg strength and get a feel of swinging your hips around in the biggest arc more using the legs. its harder to shift 0/100 than to stay 50/50, so once you can shift 0/100 then 50/50 i no problem

you might have to adjust how you shift based on where the target is at that moment and other things

my question for the video makers is why they think its important to keep your body, your center, in the same spot while you shift. both shifting on the toes and shifting 0/100 moves your body around, and the guy in the video said that you dont walk like this so dont shift like this.

i dont see the connection between walking and shifting. to me, shifting is for power generation and evasion. what does it have to do with walking?

[Liddel]

I disagree with most of whats said. I wont say its wrong but i feel its a boxed in mentality.

Firstly relating a turning horse to walking which is a controlled fall is rediculous IMO and poor irrrelevant mentality when related to fighting where you intend to be balanced as much as possible. :o

The statement at 104 that using anything but 50/50 will have you "never develop proper flow in your footwork" is contrary to my own experience using 70/30.

If one watches the science of infighting (something we can all see on youtube)as an example
WSL uses a 70/30 stance and demonstrates flowing shuffling stepping foward back and side to side. So this statement in the clip is worthless IMO unless what they as "proper flow" just means "thier way" :rolleyes:

One other problem i have with the clip is at 150 when Ed shows a 60/40 turning horse which is offered as incorrect because "his center is never in line with the pole".
Now i use 70/30 for this very reason (and others), when used - my center has now moved off line letting forces given to my center go away from it as it moves and/or deflects incomming forces away. I also use 70/30 as my heel when turned into a side stance is right under my bum for horse support. In the example of 50/50 given the knee is supporting his weight over the center. I feel the heel support is superior to that of the knee when in a dynamic moving environment like sparring.

I chop and change my weight distribution in sparring, mainly 70/30 but at times in dynamic movement im 50/50. But the comments made in the clip are contrary to how ive been taught and my experience.

each to thier own.

DREW

[SAAMAG]

Shifting differently for different purpose.

Sometimes 50/50 for pure rotation, sometimes 30/70 to dissolve an attack, sometimes 80/20 to rotate the strike into the opponent. 0/100 momentarily for mobility.

Moving up and down? Not so much "bouncing" but almost like "falling" through the fist/elbow into the opponent to maximize utilization of the body mass.

In general, I see rules as guides for training beginners. Ultimately, all rules are to be broken. Fight free of inhibitions.

Cheers,
John

I was gonna reply, but this about sums it up.

[Ultimatewingchun]

I doubt if Wong Shun Leung ever used a 70/30 when fighting or seriously sparring. In TWC we use a 50/50 at all times except when getting ready to kick...at which point it's a 100% weight transfer to the support leg.

[YungChun]

Folks seem to overlook the fact that you can't always choose your weight distribution when trying to manage force... This should be a given..

The CK step is it bik ma? Cannot develop the compression engine (rear leg) in the form with 50/50.. With 50/50 training in that step you are developing half the power, half the compression and half the loading (balance recovery) of the rear power generator.. There is NO benefit to developing a power generator with half the compression/loading...

Moreover, when you kick and you have more weight on your lead you must shift the weight first and then kick.. VT idea is to be ready to kick already when using that stepping as well as keeping the lead leg "free" to harass, trap and disrupt him down below, again not something you can do with the lead leg loaded..

Having said that... It is just as incorrect to adopt that kind of rear stance as a full-time fighting stance IMO.. It simply represents a mechanic, a dynamic and a tool that has it's place, time and purpose in VT fighting.

BTW: Anytime you press off with the rear and lift the lead leg you have 0/100... IF you are balanced you will not be leaning and then you see part of this dynamic in action--if you begin to lose you balance this dynamic trains you to pull that single leg/foot back under you to recover--an amazing dynamic IMO.

[k gledhill]

we try to convey balance in motion constantly as it would be fighting, so pivoting and shifting is done along the central axis line /spine. We shift and pivot according to the balance not the exact drilling foot moves 3"x3"x3"x, etc....so trying to dissect it is redundant to us , like saying , do we face at angle of 45 deg or 43 deg ?? you over analyze it. if your off balance it should be shown to you by fighting or drills to improve it.

chum kil is the way for this, we see it as a balance control drill. Utilizing hips legs elbows as a unit. making the controlling actions of turning an opponent easier because we use all things at once ie lan sao to arm with hips thrust in and leg use, if the stance is bad it will show because we will fight your attempts to move us...

you feel balance or not your adjustments are intuitive not fixed. We try to make our ability to deliver a ko strength punch at all times ideally. If your unbalanced ? how can you....

the hands on drills are for the transfer of force and help developing balanced stances in motion while maintaining our distances to make an attack always, relentless .

We try to strengthen each others stance control, axis stability ,ie, as a drill we can push a guy we face in lok sao, before moving away ourselves, disengaging and moving back at an angle... to really make them work to fight the push away we give them as they then attack the guy moving away....without leaning forwards , back, etc...

so the guy has to fight being pushed backwards in ygkym 1st , then explode after the pusher...who simply offers an arm for a drill choice ...so I would shove you suddenly and then step away just as suddenly , making your job to stay in your stance before attacking, iow not moving back easily....good drill.

Knife training will also enhance the sharp pivoting parry's to gain space for counters , here you shift to a intuitive distances that you feel will allow defense and attack possibilities. if the hips are bad and the axis line leaning the attacker / partner will feel it and show with command of your bad positions...part of the learning curve , what feels solid whats weak ...is just as important to learn from fighting each other as testers for each others weaknesses ...

we pivot on the heels , this allows the axis line to remain straight up and balanced...we try to move and attack/fight like this but not like rockem sock em robots.

we shift in small steps allowing a constant line of force to come out of our contact points, hard to do if you make big steps ie step big pause, step yawn ....if your on someone and they are trying to escape it has to be fast, balanced not leaning forwrds over chasing...even if you reach you have lost force transfer ability. no knockout force.

pole drills also help to develop strong core work :D

shifting can be subtle shadow work too, like the shell game, now you see me, now you dont, stance and hand work...can be frustrating to the partner :D the idea is to remove yourself tactically to another position laterally for your counter attacking position with only a slight shift and hand lead switch for the partner...the partner has to keep an attack coming regardless of your move...it makes a good drill for going in a more controlled manner forwards because of the awareness to sudden side shifts, and attempts to counter you....from seung ma ~ toi ma progression...no pre-contact like chi-sao more about using all the drilling /forms for fighting each other.

if you try to use the guy as a support , by the sudden disapearance of both arms and positions, you can easily gain counter attacks to guys who over commit entry to 'where you were' ..the drill also involves the counter entry requireing the strong combination of shift , sharp hip pivot driving , facing and regaining entry to the partner before they can re-face....pretty energetic :D:D we do several 2 minute rounds with alternating partners...random movement and counters with shifting to counter attack the attacker, who for the drill will just make punches in one drill....

progression to sparring fighting is seamless.

[SAAMAG]

Kevin can u please divide your response into chapters? :D

[k gledhill]

hah ..we talk in whole approach to fighting ....takes more words ! I am leaning towards doing clips online.

[SAAMAG]

hah ..we talk in whole approach to fighting ....takes more words ! I am leaning towards doing clips online.

I'd subscribe to that.

[Ultimatewingchun]

I hope they'll be a lot easier to follow than your posts. :p

[SAAMAG]

^ hahahahahaha :D. He's gonna have a you tube video where it's all chopped up like a 70's editing job!

[k gledhill]

a clip is easier to follow... i keep forgetting to take a clip. I will try this week. my friends who read my posts say the same :D but i try anyway ! :D

[Lee Chiang Po]

The gentleman in the video clip was correct in what he said. Anything else is incorrect. Now, it is impossible to maintain a percentage of weight on either leg. We will not always maintain exact percentages because we simply can't, and there will be times when we will deliberately not. However, shifting and turning might be two different things, and simply turning requires you to do so on the heels to maintain position of the body, while shifting could entail turning on the balls of the foot, which in turn makes the body shift from one side to the other. The entire body must raise up and move to another location.
Everything in Wing Chun is done a certain particular way. Every time. It is done that way for a reason and a purpose. If you alter that and do it in any other way you then violate the principals of that purpose. I'm not trolling or trying to make people mad. That is just the way it is.

[Vajramusti]

The gentleman in the video clip was correct in what he said. Anything else is incorrect. Now, it is impossible to maintain a percentage of weight on either leg. We will not always maintain exact percentages because we simply can't, and there will be times when we will deliberately not. However, shifting and turning might be two different things, and simply turning requires you to do so on the heels to maintain position of the body, while shifting could entail turning on the balls of the foot, which in turn makes the body shift from one side to the other. The entire body must raise up and move to another location.
Everything in Wing Chun is done a certain particular way. Every time. It is done that way for a reason and a purpose. If you alter that and do it in any other way you then violate the principals of that purpose. I'm not trolling or trying to make people mad. That is just the way it is.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Good points. Some of the confusion apparently comes from folks not making a distinction between
developing balance and torque adjustments one makes in real situations. Knowing and incorporating a standard provides a basis for variations.
I have no problem with folks doing their chor ma some other way. Different arts have their own dynamics. BTW- I have see WSL's chor ma in person- he was equally balanced on both legs in his turns.

joy chaudhuri

[k gledhill]

yes wsl vt is moving to maintain a balanced stance 'I' axis line vertical , meaning weight is recovered to equalize and have the ability to shift in any direction required instantly.

speed of movement requires the drilling be to stabilize your stances, chi-sao is this weight /force transfer control amongst other things. We deliberately try to destabilize each other in drills in contact but fight from no contact. when we make contact with fists or whatever the connection from our stable stances ensures force is transmitted efficiently providing us with good strong punching/parries whatever, in motion as we fight attacking in or angling off lines of force using sudden waist pivots with pak sao counter strikes ...
slt + ck. trying to over stick/chase hands in drills or roll and deflect stuff is the wrong thinking for us, we are trying to WORK the stances to be strong and have arms that are relaxed yet unyeilding when contact is made, striking out instantly with explosive force at hight speeds in continous barrages ...if you stick t much you tend to go in a different outcome. you want to find hands first rather than destroy the opponent asap.

fighting is movement striking with the freedom to express yourself in the here and now of YOUR moment, using these things from drilling....to fight.

[k gledhill]

^ hahahahahaha :D. He's gonna have a you tube video where it's all chopped up like a 70's editing job!

hah ! Ill use the Abbott and Costello routine " whos on first whats on second routine as the explanation" ....and "I dont know's on third" btw :D
or
the vessel with the pestle holds the pellet with the poison, but the chalice from the palace holds the brew that is true...but wait I thought the flagon with the dragon held the pellet with the poison.....:D

its easier hands on :D

[Vajramusti]

hah ! Ill use the Abbott and Costello routine " whos on first whats on second routine as the explanation" ....and "I dont know's on third" btw :D
or
the vessel with the pestle holds the pellet with the poison, but the chalice from the palace holds the brew that is true...but wait I thought the flagon with the dragon held the pellet with the poison.....:D

its easier hands on :D
----------------------------------------
Possibly a Danny Kaye routine?

[k gledhill]

D Kaye in a connecticut yankee in king arthurs court , a classic routine :D

abott and costellos routine is classic too.

via duck why not a horse ?

[Knifefighter]

I doubt if Wong Shun Leung ever used a 70/30 when fighting or seriously sparring. In TWC we use a 50/50 at all times except when getting ready to kick...at which point it's a 100% weight transfer to the support leg.
As bipedal creatures, it is impossible for us to move without transferring 100% of the weight to the locomotion producing limb. Movement in bipedal creatures is essentially "losing balance and then regaining it again."

[SAAMAG]

Yep. I was watching some science show and they were talking about that. The human process of walking is such that you are literally falling and catching yourself with each step. Interesting in that it doesn't feel that way.

[k gledhill]

try walking forwards as you progresively lean backwards....:D

[Knifefighter]

try walking forwards as you progresively lean backwards....:D

Unless the laws of physics were repealed, you still have to put 100% of the weight on the propelling limb... and you are still off balance. If you weren't, it would be impossible to move.

[YungChun]

Unless the laws of physics were repealed, you still have to put 100% of the weight on the propelling limb... and you are still off balance. If you weren't, it would be impossible to move.

You can move and still be balanced.. When you move and are unbalanced that's called falling.. LOL

[t_niehoff]

You can move and still be balanced.. When you move and are unbalanced that's called falling.. LOL

Yes, you can move while maintaining your balance -- we all do this all the time. And when we move forward, we shift our weight from leg to leg (sometimes very quickly so it appears we haven't transferred our weight) while maintaining our balance. The 50-50,70-30, etc. weight distributions are only guidelines for beginners and pertain more to idealized postural alignment than anything else. In fighting/application things are much more dynamic.

As I look at it, we are never balanced but always in the process of maintaining our balance -- that distinction, while perhaps subtle, is important.

[Knifefighter]

As I look at it, we are never balanced but always in the process of maintaining our balance -- that distinction, while perhaps subtle, is important.

Bingo! To move, you must be unbalanced for a time.

[chusauli]

You can move and still be balanced.. When you move and are unbalanced that's called falling.. LOL

Yes, scientifically speaking, walking is falling and catching yourself.

[k gledhill]

this thread got silly

[Knifefighter]

this thread got silly

What is silly is thinking that you can do any physical activity that requires locomotion and keep your weight doing anything except constantly shifting from 100% on one leg to 100% on the other leg. What's funny is that you have entire sub-systems of WC that are supposedly based on 70/30, 100/0, etc, when the only time you could have that would be if you never moved.

[zerojjc]

Ultimately, all rules are to be broken. Fight free of inhibitions.

Cheers,
John

:D I agree, and well said!

[k gledhill]

What is silly is thinking that you can do any physical activity that requires locomotion and keep your weight doing anything except constantly shifting from 100% on one leg to 100% on the other leg. What's funny is that you have entire sub-systems of WC that are supposedly based on 70/30, 100/0, etc, when the only time you could have that would be if you never moved.

I/we dont talk in 70/30-60/40 bs either, I mentioned that earlier...im not arguing either. :D

We talk of fighting , motion, angling....who fights statically ?

we walk like a pendulum. The problem is we do it badly.

A pendulum is a device that transforms kinetic energy of motion into gravitational potential energy and back. As it moves through the bottom of its arc, the pendulum's velocity and thus its kinetic energy— mass times velocity squared divided by two, or mv 2/2— reach a maximum. At the top of its arc, the pendulum slows to a stop, but at that point the potential energy— mass times gravity times height— is at its peak. As the pendulum falls back down, potential energy is converted back to kinetic energy. In a good pendulum the conversion is close to 100 percent, with only a bit of energy lost to the friction of moving through the air and that of the bearing from which it is hung. One nudge, and a pendulum keeps swinging a long time.

With each step you walk, you yourself become an inverted pendulum: You pivot around the foot that's on the ground, as if you were using that leg to pole-vault, and your center of mass, somewhere in the belly, describes an arc. As you plant a foot on the ground in front of you, the ground exerts a force back up your leg that slows you down, and you continue slowing as you rise up on that foot to the top of your arc. At that point your kinetic energy is at a minimum— but your potential energy is at a maximum. As you fall forward into the next step, that stored potential energy is converted back into kinetic energy, and you accelerate again.

"If the body were a perfect pendulum— if it could convert the kinetic energy into potential energy and back without wasting a calorie— walking would be nearly effortless," says Heglund, a physiologist at the University of Louvain in Belgium. "But you're only 65 percent of a perfect pendulum." In other words, 35 percent of the energy for each step has to be supplied afresh from the food you burn. Fish and birds do better: They burn less energy per unit distance than we do, even though birds are fighting gravity all the time, and fish have to fight their way through a dense liquid. "So why are we sweating? Where's the work?" asks Cavagna. "It's work we're doing against ourselves. It's a lack of coordination."

[YungChun]

What is silly is thinking that you can do any physical activity that requires locomotion and keep your weight doing anything except constantly shifting from 100% on one leg to 100% on the other leg. What's funny is that you have entire sub-systems of WC that are supposedly based on 70/30, 100/0, etc, when the only time you could have that would be if you never moved.

That measurement refers to a stance..a stance in a form.. The stance in the form teaches a kind of stepping, loading (receiving force), compressing that force (storing power) and alignment. Many of the stances are seen as some kind of static "thing" you should always do, this is not correct, it simply represents a mechanic, a tool or transitional (extreme) position, dynamic or tactic..


Bingo! To move, you must be unbalanced for a time.

And as an example the CK step does a remarkable job of shortening that "time of unbalance" and how to recover it.

[YungChun]

Yes, scientifically speaking, walking is falling and catching yourself.

That's true.. but is the bik ma step walking? Is there really a point of "falling" during any part of that step?

There is centered movement, balanced motion and unbalanced, off centered motion... The former is the goal...

[YouKnowWho]

Is there really a point of "falling" during any part of that step?
You can use your body falling to pull your opponent6 down with you. If you can catch yourself and regain your balance back, you have just execute a perfect throw.

http://img245.imageshack.us/img245/7585/changleglifting.jpg

[Hendrik]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeDDSVaBXvg



IMHHHHO

if WCK is like this then WCK is over.

These shifting stuffs have developed into a point that one is no longer human but trying to become a robot or woodern dummy or not nature at all. thus, this type of art will not be able to flow.

Just to be real real real honest, this type of stuffs is exactly why the short Jin of WCK 1850 lost.

[Hendrik]

Bingo! To move, you must be unbalanced for a time.

To fajin one needs that unbalance to accelerate and propel out.
and one purposely did that because that is how one control acceleration and also not standing there to be grap and take down.

[Hendrik]

That's true.. but is the bik ma step walking? Is there really a point of "falling" during any part of that step?

There is centered movement, balanced motion and unbalanced, off centered motion... The former is the goal...

IMHO

who cares about bik ma or this ma or that ma? those stuffs are just tools for training to explore one's limit or boundary in movement. WCK is not other nam kuen.

EVery fajin is a falling, using the drop the weight and let the center of gravity force to accelate one without using any muscle or big horse stance step. it goes down accelerate and propel out when the opponent contact one's body.

What centered movement? what balance motion? who care about balance motion? using the impact of the opponent to balance the motion. a self balance motion is a waste of energy and make one stuck.

[LSWCTN1]

I doubt if Wong Shun Leung ever used a 70/30 when fighting or seriously sparring. In TWC we use a 50/50 at all times except when getting ready to kick...at which point it's a 100% weight transfer to the support leg.

how i presently learn (Ng Chun Hong - WSL/Jui Wan) we are taught probably around 80%-20%

when we strike we do not transfer like a boxer on a 50-50 (although i can of course see that benefit too). we always drive through the heels of our back foot.

different strokes for different folks...

[t_niehoff]

I/we dont talk in 70/30-60/40 bs either, I mentioned that earlier...im not arguing either. :D

We talk of fighting , motion, angling....who fights statically ?


Apparently most people who practice WCK don't fight at all.



we walk like a pendulum. The problem is we do it badly.


No we don't -- we do it extremely well. We're able to walk around for days at a time without falling down!



A pendulum is a device that transforms kinetic energy of motion into gravitational potential energy and back. As it moves through the bottom of its arc, the pendulum's velocity and thus its kinetic energy— mass times velocity squared divided by two, or mv 2/2— reach a maximum. At the top of its arc, the pendulum slows to a stop, but at that point the potential energy— mass times gravity times height— is at its peak. As the pendulum falls back down, potential energy is converted back to kinetic energy. In a good pendulum the conversion is close to 100 percent, with only a bit of energy lost to the friction of moving through the air and that of the bearing from which it is hung. One nudge, and a pendulum keeps swinging a long time.

With each step you walk, you yourself become an inverted pendulum: You pivot around the foot that's on the ground, as if you were using that leg to pole-vault, and your center of mass, somewhere in the belly, describes an arc. As you plant a foot on the ground in front of you, the ground exerts a force back up your leg that slows you down, and you continue slowing as you rise up on that foot to the top of your arc. At that point your kinetic energy is at a minimum— but your potential energy is at a maximum. As you fall forward into the next step, that stored potential energy is converted back into kinetic energy, and you accelerate again.

"If the body were a perfect pendulum— if it could convert the kinetic energy into potential energy and back without wasting a calorie— walking would be nearly effortless," says Heglund, a physiologist at the University of Louvain in Belgium. "But you're only 65 percent of a perfect pendulum." In other words, 35 percent of the energy for each step has to be supplied afresh from the food you burn. Fish and birds do better: They burn less energy per unit distance than we do, even though birds are fighting gravity all the time, and fish have to fight their way through a dense liquid. "So why are we sweating? Where's the work?" asks Cavagna. "It's work we're doing against ourselves. It's a lack of coordination."

More theoretical nonsense.

[t_niehoff]

That's true.. but is the bik ma step walking? Is there really a point of "falling" during any part of that step?

There is centered movement, balanced motion and unbalanced, off centered motion... The former is the goal...

Yes, bik ma is stepping -- you move your feet for locomotion. And anytime you move your feet or body, you lose your balance. There is even a kuit which specifically addresses this: Dik Yaat Yee Dong, Jung Sum Yim Hong - enemy shifting/moving 'balance is already empty'.

You don't need to focus on "centered movement, balanced motion" and it doesn't help to focus on it -- it is better to focus on the performance of the task at hand, and your balance, centeredness, etc. will take care of itself.

[k gledhill]

Apparently most people who practice WCK don't fight at all.



No we don't -- we do it extremely well. We're able to walk around for days at a time without falling down!



More theoretical nonsense.

http://discovermagazine.com/2001/jul/featphysics

tell him I just copy pasted ;)....:D

[LoneTiger108]

IMHHHHO

if WCK is like this then WCK is over.

Agred 100%!

Mainly due to the fact that our "Ed" in the clip just bursts into a yawn the moment shifting is mentioned! :eek:

[t_niehoff]

http://discovermagazine.com/2001/jul/featphysics

tell him I just copy pasted ;)....:D

I was a physics major as an undergraduate (and I earned a bachelor of science in physics). Physics won't help you learn or understand WCK or fighting. That approach -- looking to physics -- is nonsense. It's what theoretical nonfighters, martial art nerds, do.

[CFT]

I agree with Terence. Using science to analyse physical movement is OK but one can usually only analyse isolated movements. It would not be realistic to extrapolate any insight to a complex one-on-one encounter like a fight.

I did find an interesting part of that article. About how Keynan women from certain tribes carrying heavy loads on their heads actually were more efficient in their locomotion. I have, at times, done turning and stepping from the Chum Kiu forms with my (then) baby son in my arms. It has always felt much better than when unloaded.

[Hendrik]

I agree with Terence. Using science to analyse physical movement is OK but one can usually only analyse isolated movements. It would not be realistic to extrapolate any insight to a complex one-on-one encounter like a fight.





The serious problem one usually doesnt aware totally with the science analysis is that one cut down a dynamic flow of action and sample it frame by frame and then do the analysis on a particular frame.

Then, one keep talking about that frame and trying to mimic that frame, which is just a static frame and no longer dynamic.

How the heck is mimic a frame can represent the whole dynamic flow?

It cant.

So, why is people cant do fighting? fighting is dynamic. and anyone keep training trying to perfect that "frame" according to science is actually solving a wrong issue which is real life NON exist.

It is like trying to make perfect a photograph and thinking by making perfect a photograph somedays it can turn into a video clip. It is totally a mis logic but i guess most just goes blind.

Wake up WCner.

[CFT]

It not that (IMO). Knowing how is not necessarily knowing why.

Even if you know how to perform a movement efficiently, with power, etc. You still need to know how to apply it in the right context.

[chusauli]

WCK is basically concerned with balance. When a force acts upon you, you have to be stable or else it will topple or delay you.

[chusauli]

That's true.. but is the bik ma step walking? Is there really a point of "falling" during any part of that step?

There is centered movement, balanced motion and unbalanced, off centered motion... The former is the goal...

In Bik Ma, it is the WCK person's attempt to minimize unbalance, but there is a point when uprooted...

To discuss percentages is silly - it depends on the situation.

[k gledhill]

I was a physics major as an undergraduate (and I earned a bachelor of science in physics). Physics won't help you learn or understand WCK or fighting. That approach -- looking to physics -- is nonsense. It's what theoretical nonfighters, martial art nerds, do.

thats why I posted it NERD ! I already said the thread went silly , duh. For some and its becoming obvious why now, we need sledge hammer subtlety ...nerds love 'em. Im a nerd too .

guys are starting to analyze 'walking' get it ?....no ? thats because, your too busy over 'anal' yzing Terence.

[YungChun]

Yes, bik ma is stepping


I asked if it was *walking*... It isn't... The point was covered...The step minimizes the duration of "balance empty"...