Muay Thai vs Bagua/ Nak vs Maoshan

[cerebus]

And so.... Maoshan a.k.a. Ben Hill, recently fought a Muay Thai fighter named Nakmeezy. This is what happened...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4ls7SAbN24&feature=player_embedded

In my own view, Hill didn't train for this match. He was out of shape and he had... well, he had nothing really. He didn't seem to know what he was doing. I've heard that he's a good Bagua practitioner but he doesn't seem to be able to apply it to fighting.

He had made some comments in writing after the fight along the line of Bagua not being a "ring" art, but rather a "street" art. But surely Bagua (at least the systems I'm familiar with) has plenty of simple and basic techniques which would be very applicable in the ring? What makes people think that if they can't use some of the most basic methods of their art in the relative safety of a ring fight, that they will somehow magically be able to apply more complex methods in a real street fight? That just doesn't make much sense to me...

[goju]

He had made some comments in writing after the fight along the line of Bagua not being a "ring" art, but rather a "street" art. I.


yeah after that what ever else he has to say is pretty much bunk:rolleyes::D

[sanjuro_ronin]

One fighter spends his time fighting, the other, doesn't.
The winner was the one that was the better fighter.
The MT went easy on him, he could have really drilled him a few times.
Bagua guy had the typical lack of conditioning that guys that don't do full contact have, he wasn't used to getting hit hard and every time he got hit, he lost more of what little conditioning he had.
He hands were not very good, his kicks were irrelevant.
The MT guy had good power and speed and hit the bagua guy pretty much at will.

[goju]

but only if they allowed kicks to the crotch then he would have shown that mt guy what for!!!:rolleyes::D

i cant see the vid but i thought bagua guys had their iron body stuff?

[taai gihk yahn]

that was painful to watch;

and then there's the post hoc commentary (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bxOTmOZELA&feature=related)...

BTW, didn't Mao Shan have some other dust-up on a playground with some guy like a a year ago where he also got pwned?

[dimethylsea]

that was painful to watch;

and then there's the post hoc commentary (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bxOTmOZELA&feature=related)...

BTW, didn't Mao Shan have some other dust-up on a playground with some guy like a a year ago where he also got pwned?

That video of the Lyte/Maoshan fight was suppressed. Maoshan and company complained to youtube about "copyright" infringement and had it taken down so it wouldn't embarrass them.

[SoCo KungFu]

but only if they allowed kicks to the crotch then he would have shown that mt guy what for!!!:rolleyes::D

i cant see the vid but i thought bagua guys had their iron body stuff?

Don't forget the obligatory thumb in the eye and the biting of auditory organs

[bawang]

hi im busy in life(school ) but after watching this guy video i realkly want to say sumting
i think hes brave for trying and being recorded on video, but i think he didnt really learn his lesson because he didnt get hurt enough. i learned my lesson back in high school my front tooth almsot fell off.
if he got knocked out he wouldnt be saying the "too deadly for ring" thing after the fight. when i got knocked out i never spoke to anyone about martial arts for 3 years.

[Frost]

One fighter spends his time fighting, the other, doesn't.
The winner was the one that was the better fighter.
The MT went easy on him, he could have really drilled him a few times.
Bagua guy had the typical lack of conditioning that guys that don't do full contact have, he wasn't used to getting hit hard and every time he got hit, he lost more of what little conditioning he had.
He hands were not very good, his kicks were irrelevant.
The MT guy had good power and speed and hit the bagua guy pretty much at will.

spot on the bagua guy had no conditioning and was not used to getting hit or hitting anyone....MT guy was playing with him most of the time, some nice takedowns and lovely knees in the clinch. the bagua guy had nothing really, no power no real technique just dived in on occasion

[goju]

Don't forget the obligatory thumb in the eye and the biting of auditory organs
lets not forget the dreaded DIM MAK!:eek:


doesnt this maoshan person post here on occasion?

[SoCo KungFu]

That video of the Lyte/Maoshan fight was suppressed. Maoshan and company complained to youtube about "copyright" infringement and had it taken down so it wouldn't embarrass them.

Is Lyte that kinda skinny dude that was doing that 52 Blocks stuff?

[SoCo KungFu]

spot on the bagua guy had no conditioning and was not used to getting hit or hitting anyone....MT guy was playing with him most of the time, some nice takedowns and lovely knees in the clinch. the bagua guy had nothing really, no power no real technique just dived in on occasion

Just think about it in context of that Nak wasn't even using elbows or knees above gut level....

[Frost]

Just think about it in context of that Nak wasn't even using elbows or knees above gut level....

he was playing with him taking it easy...although he looked a bit annoyed when he had the bacl mount and hit his head...after that the bagua guy didn't want to come out and play

[SoCo KungFu]

lets not forget the dreaded DIM MAK!:eek:


doesnt this maoshan person post here on occasion?

Oh yes, there will be blood...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Pcsg5_LEJ4

[bawang]

2:03 "high subdue tiger" 2:06 "bait leg" 2:09 "god fist" 2:13 walled in all directions 2:14 "resting bull" 2:32 "bird spreads wings" 2:44 "sitting mountain" 2:47 "luohan guards door/luohan prays" 3:18 "reverse single whip" 3:31 "bird return to nest/yaza tests sea" 3:35 "tiger grabs head" 3:40 "resting bull" 3:44 "ground cannon" 4:43 "reverse single whip" 4:48 "cannon to the head" 4:54 "gold rooster stands on one leg"

the muay thai guy did more kung fu techniques than him

[SoCo KungFu]

he was playing with him taking it easy...although he looked a bit annoyed when he had the bacl mount and hit his head...after that the bagua guy didn't want to come out and play

Yeah that's what I'm saying. He was way holding back, not trying to disfigure dude. Man that'd have been brutal had he gone all out....

[dimethylsea]

Is Lyte that kinda skinny dude that was doing that 52 Blocks stuff?

Yep.
Quick summary:
Maoshan and Lyte square off. Maoshan attempted to close with that "happy slap" thing, they went to the clinch, Lyte got a nice judo throw (a rearward reap/suplex thing), nearly ippon quality but he followed Maoshan down and went to the ground on top of Maoshan.
Lyte maintained top position, full mount, transitioned to side mount, Maoshan rolled the wrong way, gave up his back, Lyte got a possible RNC, Maoshan defended it, managed to escape. Turtled up. Lyte does GNP, it reverses to north-south, Lyte superior. And that was it.

Lyte won handily if you are scoring for a decision.
1.) Got the takedown.
2.) Dominant position through the ground phase.
3.) Attempted a good sub and scored well for the GnP.

[goju]

who the hell was that telling him to walk the citcle? his corner? lol

[Frost]

Yeah that's what I'm saying. He was way holding back, not trying to disfigure dude. Man that'd have been brutal had he gone all out....

yep for all his talk on here a while ago he looked like he has never been in a fight before it was like watching a new guy in his first sparring match

[SoCo KungFu]

who the hell was that telling him to walk the citcle? his corner? lol

I was thinking that same thing....

[goju]

i kept thinking of "sweep the leg johnny!!!" every time i heard that:D

[Yum Cha]

I agree, Mui Thai guy was just cruising. Didn't see much more than a couple of winks of Ba Qua, and then it degenerated into nothingness.

Tragic.

[taai gihk yahn]

2:03 "high subdue tiger" etc.
the muay thai guy did more kung fu techniques than him
LOL; bawang, don't u ever get tired of winning the Intern3tz?


Yep.
Quick summary:
Maoshan and Lyte square off. Maoshan attempted to close with that "happy slap" thing, they went to the clinch, Lyte got a nice judo throw (a rearward reap/suplex thing), nearly ippon quality but he followed Maoshan down and went to the ground on top of Maoshan.
Lyte maintained top position, full mount, transitioned to side mount, Maoshan rolled the wrong way, gave up his back, Lyte got a possible RNC, Maoshan defended it, managed to escape. Turtled up. Lyte does GNP, it reverses to north-south, Lyte superior. And that was it.
good summarizing (u shud try sum Proust); funny, it's almost like he didn't learn a darn thing about grappling / being on the ground since then...and it pretty much obvitates the argument about his bagua being for t3h str33t, not the ring, since he had his head handed to him in that venue as well...


yep for all his talk on here a while ago he looked like he has never been in a fight before it was like watching a new guy in his first sparring match
some of his mistakes were tragic - like reflexively dropping both his hands to "defend" against the low kicks - I mean, that's so beginner it's not even funny...

[cerebus]

some of his mistakes were tragic - like reflexively dropping both his hands to "defend" against the low kicks - I mean, that's so beginner it's not even funny...

And how about the spinning around, which he did a few times? Among many other very basic mistakes... :(

[dimethylsea]

I bet if Bostonbagua Dale actually fought it would look like that. Real fighting is a lot different from hitting bricks. Bricks do not hit back.

-1.

Subject of the thread is Maoshan. Not casually trolling on a third party.

Besides.. Dale is a big guy like me, not a little dude like Maoshan. Superheavy's fight different than the hobbits of this world.

I will say this.. if I went up against a fighter like Nakmaseez (with his obvious conditioning) in my weight class I'd probably get whupped also.

The only thing I would say is... I would have gone out on the second round, let my hands droop, took a hit, gone down and stayed down. Not answering the bell is not an option.

[cerebus]

I bet if Bostonbagua Dale actually fought it would look like that. Real fighting is a lot different from hitting bricks. Bricks do not hit back.

Really? And you're basing this on.... what?

[SoCo KungFu]

I bet if Bostonbagua Dale actually fought it would look like that. Real fighting is a lot different from hitting bricks. Bricks do not hit back.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4rkCwONu64&feature=related

[cerebus]

Bricks do not hit back.

But Dale Dugas does.... hard.... ;)

[IronFist]

What is the move done by the Muay Thai guy at 3:32 and also at 4:08? It looks like a punch but kicking the same side leg out behind you at the same time? Like a superman punch or something?

[ghostexorcist]

that was painful to watch;

and then there's the post hoc commentary (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bxOTmOZELA&feature=related)...

BTW, didn't Mao Shan have some other dust-up on a playground with some guy like a a year ago where he also got pwned?
He was beat up by some guy using 52 blocks. I think he should stop trying to fight people with actual combat skills or at least stop video taping it.

[Pork Chop]

yah a superman punch
a lot of guys are infatuated with it
i used to pull it off on quick, little guys all the time - one of the few ways i could catch them.
now when people pull it on me i just get ticked. lol

[goju]

some of his mistakes were tragic - like reflexively dropping both his hands to "defend" against the low kicks - i mean, that's so beginner it's not even funny...

hey ill have you know sir i routine slapped away the ultra devastating kicks of shaolin do practioners with my hands!!!!:d

[Frost]

What is the move done by the Muay Thai guy at 3:32 and also at 4:08? It looks like a punch but kicking the same side leg out behind you at the same time? Like a superman punch or something?

yep a superman punch, when he started using that you could tell he was playing around and felt no threat at all

[taai gihk yahn]

He was beat up by some guy using 52 blocks. I think he should stop trying to fight people with actual combat skills or at least stop video taping it.
really; the thing to bear in mind is this - he's supposedly a top shelf sifu; if so, how does he reconcile that he functions like a total newb? I mean, it's one thing to get beaten by a guy who's better than u,there's no shame there at all, as long as you r fighting in a manner comparable to ur purported skill level; but to go out and show a total lack of clue, and to do it repeatedly, is just...weird!


hey ill have you know sir i routine slapped away the ultra devastating kicks of shaolin do practioners with my hands!!!!:d
piffle! I stop SD kicks thousands of miles away with my qi-projection before they get anywhere near to me!

[ghostexorcist]

This is a training video he put up before the fight. It just looks totally unrealistic. All he is doing is slapping a tree and bumping it with his sides and stomach. He doesn't really seem to be putting too much force into it either. The thai boxer was probably running his ass off, hitting the bag, and sparring like crazy. It's obvious why Maoshan did not win.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIq4jZAijvc

He seems to be white-washing his page of negative comments (via youtube's "uploader comment pre-approval"). I posted a comment about his loss and compared it to the one at the hands of the 52 blocks guy. I doubt my comments will ever see the light of day. Here is an example of him stepping around the hard questions:


williamwilson666 Did this fight go down? 5 days ago


Maoshan (uploader) @williamwilson666
Yes 1 day ago

Maoshan (uploader) @tpbisdivine
Nothing odd. Something was on my eye. 1 day ago

[David Jamieson]

ok, so couple of things.

1) why does this guy call himself a sifu?

2) why does this guy think he can fight when he is consistently getting his ass handed to him?

3) I hope he learns that his training method is incorrect if he is going to attempt to actually fight.

Finally, what the heck does this got to do with Dale? lol
This is about Maoshan and his repeated failures while attempting to use what he learned.

I am guessing they taught him wrong? As a joke?

[ghostexorcist]

I am guessing they taught him wrong? As a joke?
Ha! Like Wimp Lo from Kung Pow.

[taai gihk yahn]

The only thing that can be said about this fight or any fight is there is a winner and a looser. The winner is the better fighter on that day.

no, u can say quite a bit more, based on the past history and available videos;

[SAAMAG]

Ha! Like Wimp Lo from Kung Pow.

That's what I was thinking about when I saw the term Sifu.

[ghostexorcist]

Maoshan just sent me a nasty email reply toa comment I tried to post on his training video:


Why don't you step to me and see if my applications are for real? I never trained for sports.
Real life is all I've ever done. Another youtube gangster. Your appropriately named, Ghost.
Hiding behind your keyboard popping ****. Your saying my Ba Gua is not real? Step to me and find out. I've used it for 30yrs and don't bear a mark to say other wise. Step to me and know it won't be about competition at all. you want to see just what Ba Gua is? I'll show you. No Gloves, rules or ref or no cops in the vicinity.

[taai gihk yahn]

Maoshan just sent me a nasty email reply toa comment I tried to post on his training video:

someone call a waaaambulance;

[goju]

are their any good bagua sparring vids

ive always been fascinated with the art

[JAZA]

He couldn't throw a decent punch.
Isn't Bagua a circle art?. So why he was using the centerline throwing weak snap kicks. Why he stand on one foot on a clinch, too?

Is Maoshan related to Black Taoist. I have a lot of respect for his Bagua.

[IronFist]

so the superman punch isn't a very high percentage move?

what is 52 blocks style? is it that jailhouse style? i heard that was pretty effective, similar to peekaboo or crazy monkey or something... or any i thinking of something else?

[YouKnowWho]

I've heard that he's a good Bagua practitioner but he doesn't seem to be able to apply it to fighting.
Let's be realistic.

- A boxer will have powerful punches.
- A MT guy will have powerful kicks.
- A Judo guy will have powerful throws.

What will a Bagua guy have? May be the question should be asked as, "What moves do you expect to see a Bagua guy to use in fight?"

Some IMA guys may think that they can "yield", "follow", "sticky" their opponent to death. In order to end a fight, you will need powerful punch, powerful kick, powerful throw, or powerful lock no matter what style that you train.

[cerebus]

Let's be realistic.

- A boxer will have powerful punches.
- A MT guy will have powerful kicks.
- A Judo guy will have powerful throws.

What will a Bagua guy have? May be the question should be asked as, "What moves do you expect to see a Bagua guy to use in fight?"

Specific moves I would expect from a Bagua guy? I guess that depends on his particular system. The Tienjin Gao Yi Sheng Bagua lineage holders who my initial Bagua training came from were all Shuai Jiao practitioners and competitors in their younger days, so there were lots of throws and takedowns in our lineage. The Liang Zhen Pu style that I currently practice also has some nice sweeps and throws.
Both systems also contain a wide variety of punches, kicks, knee and elbow strikes, shoulder strikes, plenty of techniques that would work well in the full-contact ring if one trains to spar full-contact with them (THAT of course is the crucial ingredient in being able to use them. Not just training them as drills or in light sparring, but training them in full-contact sparring against trained and skillful full-contact fighters).

[YouKnowWho]

If all the good stuff are in CMA then why some CMA is not effective in the ring? The problem is the training priority. A Judo guy will devote all his lifetime trying to develop some dependable moves. But some of our CMA guys just work form after form without intention to develop any 'door guarding" moves.

Too much emphasis on the defense moves such as "yield", "follow", "sticky", ... and not enough emphasis on the offense moves such as "upper cut", "round house kick", "shoulder throw", ...

[cerebus]

If all the good stuff are in CMA then why some CMA is not effective in the ring? The problem is the training priority. A Judo guy will devote all his lifetime trying to develop some dependable moves. But some of our CMA guys just work form after form without intention to develop any 'door guarding" moves.

Too much emphasis on the defense moves such as "yield", "follow", "sticky", ... and not enough emphasis on the offense moves such as "upper cut", "round house kick", "shoulder throw", ...

Yup. Sparring against a skilled sparring partner is essential.

And yeah, "yield", "follow", etc, are necessary but HAVE to be followed with realistic counter attacks.

[mickey]

Greetings,

What I find strange is that Maoshan got swept, again, by the same technique Lyte used against him.

mickey

[cerebus]

Greetings,

What I find strange is that Maoshan got swept, again, by the same technique Lyte used against him.

mickey

Not so strange if he didn't change his training methods between the two fights, which it looks like he didn't.

[goju]

If all the good stuff are in CMA then why some CMA is not effective in the ring? The problem is the training priority. A Judo guy will devote all his lifetime trying to develop some dependable moves. But some of our CMA guys just work form after form without intention to develop any 'door guarding" moves.

Too much emphasis on the defense moves such as "yield", "follow", "sticky", ... and not enough emphasis on the offense moves such as "upper cut", "round house kick", "shoulder throw", ...


yes i recal a popular white crane( i believe wc) master being asked what would be the first technique he would do if he had to defend himself

im sure the interviewer expected some archaic technique but the master just said id get up from my chair and punch him in the mouth lol

the bare basics are often neglected sadly

[Frost]

so the superman punch isn't a very high percentage move?

what is 52 blocks style? is it that jailhouse style? i heard that was pretty effective, similar to peekaboo or crazy monkey or something... or any i thinking of something else?

its normally not something you catch on a guy in the first round, you need to find your range and he needs to tire and have his hands low....yoju only use it from the getgo if you know you are much better than the other guy

yep you are right about 52

[Frost]

He couldn't throw a decent punch.
Isn't Bagua a circle art?. So why he was using the centerline throwing weak snap kicks. Why he stand on one foot on a clinch, too?

Is Maoshan related to Black Taoist. I have a lot of respect for his Bagua.

He couldn't punch because he has never trained to hit anything that was hitting back hard, he stood on one leg because he was scared of the knees and didn't want to eat another one,

yes he is and why do you respect his Bagua?

and LMAO at when he argued he trains for the streets, can you imagine what the thai guy would have done to him if he was allowed to elbow etc and took it seriously like a street fight?

[taai gihk yahn]

onand LMAO at when he argued he trains for the streets, can you imagine what the thai guy would have done to him if he was allowed to elbow etc and took it seriously like a street fight?

No, don't u realize that guys who train for the ring go into synaptic shut down when they find themselves in a street situation?

[Frost]

No, don't u realize that guys who train for the ring go into synaptic shut down when they find themselves in a street situation?

oh i forgot that thanks for reminding me :D

bit like guys who train for the street losing their powers and skills when they have to put on 4oz gloves and fight on a surface other than smashed bottles lol

[Pork Chop]

so the superman punch isn't a very high percentage move?


not usually that high damage
it gets in on a lot of people because they don't know how to defend against it.
most people don't use the defensive push kick to take advantage of the exposed ribs and it is a tricky punch to read, because it looks like a kick.

[mickey]

Greetings,

It looks like Maoshan fell for the old fashioned "bait and switch." He was supposed to fight Lyte and ended up taking this fight. There is footage of Nak and Lyte lightly sparring with each other. They are friends. The Thai boxer knew of Maoshan's weaknesses and used the same sweep that Lyte did as well as the ground choke hold from the back with leg wrap that Lyte used.

Cerebus is right, Maoshan should have taken the time to make corrections to his fight game. Maoshan appears to be incredibly helpless against attacks to his left side. It may have something to do with his visual field. He may be better off fighting from a southpaw stance.

mickey

[dimethylsea]

Greetings,

It looks like Maoshan fell for the old fashioned "bait and switch." He was supposed to fight Lyte and ended up taking this fight. There is footage of Nak and Lyte lightly sparring with each other. They are friends.


All these guys are friends. It was a smoker match dude. That's probably part of why Nak didn't really open up on him.. it was a friendly gym smoker and they were both well acquainted with each other.

[IronFist]

not usually that high damage
it gets in on a lot of people because they don't know how to defend against it.
most people don't use the defensive push kick to take advantage of the exposed ribs and it is a tricky punch to read, because it looks like a kick.

How does one do/defend against a superman punch?

I never learned that one. Link to vid or something?

[TenTigers]

with a Kryptonite block, of course! Silly!:p

[taai gihk yahn]

oh i forgot that thanks for reminding me :D

bit like guys who train for the street losing their powers and skills when they have to put on 4oz gloves and fight on a surface other than smashed bottles lol
precisely; it's all about the smashed bottles that cue u into ur "glow"...


He may be better off fighting from a southpaw stance.
mickey
he may be better off fighting at the south pole...

[dimethylsea]

How does one do/defend against a superman punch?

I never learned that one. Link to vid or something?

Fight Footage
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFh3mVbIUOI

How-To
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5AHoLF3etQ

How to defend it? Keep your hands up. It's a punch to the head.. you defend it like you defend any punch to the head.. cover or slip it :D

[taai gihk yahn]

How does one do/defend against a superman punch?

I never learned that one. Link to vid or something?

If do correct, no can defense.

[Yum Cha]

If do correct, no can defense.

Like every big move, move laterally. Easy to say, hard to do.

[goju]

How does one do/defend against a superman punch?

I never learned that one. Link to vid or something?

move out of the way

do what fedor did to arvloski lol

[omarthefish]

Let's be realistic.

- A boxer will have powerful punches.
- A MT guy will have powerful kicks.
- A Judo guy will have powerful throws.

What will a Bagua guy have? May be the question should be asked as, "What moves do you expect to see a Bagua guy to use in fight?"

Some IMA guys may think that they can "yield", "follow", "sticky" their opponent to death. In order to end a fight, you will need powerful punch, powerful kick, powerful throw, or powerful lock no matter what style that you train.

I would expect to see really good footwork. More specifically, I'd expect him to often be able to outflank his opponent and attack from the side door. I'd expect him to neutralize most attacks with forward diagonal movement. Attackwise I would expect either a lot of tight hook punches or some reasonably decent throwing.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Here is the thing, IF your training doesn't work in the RING, with limited rules and a controlled environment, how can it EVER work on the street with no rules ??

For bagua to be effective VS MT ( for example), it must be trained VS MT.
Why?
MA systems with highly specialized skill sets are far more dependent on timing and such than are "general skill set" MA as MT.
As such, when Bagua is trained vs Bagua, it will work best VS bagua.
MT, because it has a general skill set ( Hit the guy in front of you) it doesn't really need to train VS a specific style ( though that does help of course).

Maoshan looks like a guy that is interested in testing his skills and this is always a good thing for a MA, the issue seems to be that his training is not up tp par, he is stuck in the illusion of street VS ring and he doesn't seem to be "learning" from his fights.

[Frost]

Here is the thing, IF your training doesn't work in the RING, with limited rules and a controlled environment, how can it EVER work on the street with no rules ??

For bagua to be effective VS MT ( for example), it must be trained VS MT.
Why?
MA systems with highly specialized skill sets are far more dependent on timing and such than are "general skill set" MA as MT.
As such, when Bagua is trained vs Bagua, it will work best VS bagua.
MT, because it has a general skill set ( Hit the guy in front of you) it doesn't really need to train VS a specific style ( though that does help of course).

Maoshan looks like a guy that is interested in testing his skills and this is always a good thing for a MA, the issue seems to be that his training is not up tp par, he is stuck in the illusion of street VS ring and he doesn't seem to be "learning" from his fights.


why do you have to be so sensible and reasonable it spoils all the fun on here:(

[sanjuro_ronin]

why do you have to be so sensible and reasonable it spoils all the fun on here:(

Well, I can't post pics of hot babes all the time, can I?
:D

[Frost]

Well, I can't post pics of hot babes all the time, can I?
:D

why not?!:D

[David Jamieson]

*snip*

Maoshan looks like a guy that is interested in testing his skills and this is always a good thing for a MA, the issue seems to be that his training is not up tp par, he is stuck in the illusion of street VS ring and he doesn't seem to be "learning" from his fights.


It's clear by looking at him that he doesn't train for intense contests.

no offense but I have yet to see any bagua used in a fighting sense.
Nobody trains it to fight with it and no one has demonstrated that with free form or free style fighting to date.

everybody does a solo form with it and no one has ever fought publically with any success with it except for the legends of forbidden city guards etc etc.

[taai gihk yahn]

MA systems with highly specialized skill sets are far more dependent on timing and such than are "general skill set" MA as MT.
I think u hav just qi--balled the TCMA nail squarely on the head...

it begs the question, what then, is the value / point, if any, of training such a highly specialized skill set that only "works" against itself (or similar sets), given that a) a generalized skill-set is what you would expect most people these days to have, and b) it apparently takes an inordinate amount of time to achieve competency in terms of that skill-set's own intrinsic criteria, meaning that for far less time you could have skils that are far more applicable across the board;

of course, bagua, as the stories go, was "traditionally" taught by Dung as an adjunct to people who already had a base system - so maybe that answers the question right there...but again, that may have been fine 100+ years ago in China - but here we are in a very different context, which apparently bears out the lack of relevance (if we assume that Maoshan is performing bagua skill at a "high" level...)

[Eddie]

I think u hav just qi--balled the TCMA nail squarely on the head...

it begs the question, what then, is the value / point, if any, of training such a highly specialized skill set that only "works" against itself (or similar sets), given that a) a generalized skill-set is what you would expect most people these days to have, and b) it apparently takes an inordinate amount of time to achieve competency in terms of that skill-set's own intrinsic criteria, meaning that for far less time you could have skils that are far more applicable across the board;

of course, bagua, as the stories go, was "traditionally" taught by Dung as an adjunct to people who already had a base system - so maybe that answers the question right there...but again, that may have been fine 100+ years ago in China - but here we are in a very different context, which apparently bears out the lack of relevance (if we assume that Maoshan is performing bagua skill at a "high" level...)

Star Star Star Star Star <----- 5 stars for good post

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think u hav just qi--balled the TCMA nail squarely on the head...

it begs the question, what then, is the value / point, if any, of training such a highly specialized skill set that only "works" against itself (or similar sets), given that a) a generalized skill-set is what you would expect most people these days to have, and b) it apparently takes an inordinate amount of time to achieve competency in terms of that skill-set's own intrinsic criteria, meaning that for far less time you could have skils that are far more applicable across the board;

of course, bagua, as the stories go, was "traditionally" taught by Dung as an adjunct to people who already had a base system - so maybe that answers the question right there...but again, that may have been fine 100+ years ago in China - but here we are in a very different context, which apparently bears out the lack of relevance (if we assume that Maoshan is performing bagua skill at a "high" level...)

A valid point and one I have ponder quiet a bit, my forte is "gross motor skill" MA:
Kyokushin, Boxing, Hung Kuen, MT, but i also have some experience in the finer and more "specialiased" ones of WC and SPM.
I questioned my HK sifu about this, when his bother was there ( he is a SPM guy) and he basically said what I "knew" he was gonna say:
Specialised hands bring something different to the table and that is a huge edge, IF it can be applied.
And they agreed that, the only way they can be applied is by training them VS what they will be facing and that is NOT each other.
One thing you will find in common with people that CAN apply specialized hands is that they either have LOTS of fighting experience with said "hand" and VS other systems (WSL for example) OR they have a back ground with various systems so they can "translate" the hand to combat better.

[David Jamieson]

Star Star Star Star Star <----- 5 stars for good post

you can rate this thread you know.

I mean, without throwing feces at your monitor! lol :)

top right "rate thread" in the drop menu.

:D

[taai gihk yahn]

Star Star Star Star Star <----- 5 stars for good post

thanks; that said, with your being in China, what would you say the consensus / mind-set over there is in regard to that same issue? I'm guessing that there's a mix of perspectives, from regressive to progressive?

[taai gihk yahn]

A valid point and one I have ponder quiet a bit, my forte is "gross motor skill" MA:
Kyokushin, Boxing, Hung Kuen, MT, but i also have some experience in the finer and more "specialiased" ones of WC and SPM.
I questioned my HK sifu about this, when his bother was there ( he is a SPM guy) and he basically said what I "knew" he was gonna say:
Specialised hands bring something different to the table and that is a huge edge, IF it can be applied.
And they agreed that, the only way they can be applied is by training them VS what they will be facing and that is NOT each other.
One thing you will find in common with people that CAN apply specialized hands is that they either have LOTS of fighting experience with said "hand" and VS other systems (WSL for example) OR they have a back ground with various systems so they can "translate" the hand to combat better.
so then it's a "cherry" versus "sunday" issue - you need the latter to be able to really have any use for the former; and of course pointing out that it follows an asymptotic principle of sorts: you end up putting in a lot of work for the highly limited possibility that you a) may ever need it (because you should theoretically first go with simple / easier / higher percentage stuff) and b) that it will work if you do - so high output for limited return;

brings to mind the whole supposed idea of Lama being an "anti" bridging style, meaning that it was an Alexander and the Gordian knot scenario - "we won't figure it out, we're just not going to play the game; and guess what: when we don't, it works out fine!"

[sanjuro_ronin]

so then it's a "cherry" versus "sunday" issue - you need the latter to be able to really have any use for the former; and of course pointing out that it follows an asymptotic principle of sorts: you end up putting in a lot of work for the highly limited possibility that you a) may ever need it (because you should theoretically first go with simple / easier / higher percentage stuff) and b) that it will work if you do - so high output for limited return;

brings to mind the whole supposed idea of Lama being an "anti" bridging style, meaning that it was an Alexander and the Gordian knot scenario - "we won't figure it out, we're just not going to play the game; and guess what: when we don't, it works out fine!"

Well...I don't argue that view, but at the same time, look at BJJ, it brought something new to the table ( well,not new just neglected) and we saw the results.
The thing is, why the Gracies developed their system VS other systems, to many TMA guys develop their specialised systems VS each other and pay the price after.

[Eddie]

doesnt matter what they think, since comming here i stopped believing all those crap about TCMA.

[ghostexorcist]

Here is the thing, IF your training doesn't work in the RING, with limited rules and a controlled environment, how can it EVER work on the street with no rules ??
That is one of the points I made in my reply to Maoshan's nasty email. I also asked him to review the tape of the fight to see how he didn't use any Bagua at all. I was very polite throughout the entire message and told him to look at my comments as constructive criticism. He hasn't written me back yet.

Based on his initial reply to my original comments, his ego appears to be tied in with his own perceived skills (like many martially-inclined folks). But hopefully he will see that it often takes an outside eye to highlight someone's faults. Once he knows his faults, he can work on fixing them.

[sanjuro_ronin]

That is one of the points I made in my reply to Maoshan's nasty email. I also asked him to review the tape of the fight to see how he didn't use any Bagua at all. I was very polite throughout the entire message and told him to look at my comments as constructive criticism. He hasn't written me back yet.

Based on his initial reply to my original comments, his ego appears to be tied in with his own perceived skills (like many martially-inclined folks). But hopefully he will see that it often takes an outside eye to highlight someone's faults. Once he knows his faults, he can work on fixing them.

People don't like logic dude and here is why:
Sometimes logic forces us to see that we have been wasting years of our lives doing something that doesn't work.
Now, we can ignore that logic and hope it never comes back to bite us on the ass or we can FIX the problem and that doesn't mean scraping the system, just improving the training, that's all.

[taai gihk yahn]

, his ego appears to be tied in with his own perceived skills (like many martially-inclined folks).
I believe that there is a common trend amongst individuals who grow up somewhat disenfranchised by the "system" to build themselves up as an authority figure in an area outside of that system - TCMA being a system to which the mainstream really can't speak, it becomes relatively easy for one to set oneself up as a Master, Professor, Guru, Grand Poo-bah, etc. without those in the main being able to say anything about it; and that worked fine for many years when the mystique of TCMA ruled the waves - "if he says it's so, it must be so, because if it wasn't true, then the Shaolin Ninjas would come and do away with him"; of course, instead of the Shaolin Ninjas, you have a much more mundane mechanism by which the frauds are exposed these days...



People don't like logic dude and here is why:
Sometimes logic forces us to see that we have been wasting years of our lives doing something that doesn't work.
Now, we can ignore that logic and hope it never comes back to bite us on the ass or we can FIX the problem and that doesn't mean scraping the system, just improving the training, that's all.
if you live your life by the maxim "if I someone says something to me that makes me feel really insecure, then I should probably critically examine what they say", then this becomes less of a problem - and over time one gets better at self-regulating in this manner; but it requires the thing people don't seem to like putting time into, which is the skill of dispassionate self-assessment; meaning that, people wither like to not judge themselves at all, or on the other extreme, judge themselves in a way that is self-denigrating (probably because it repeats early childhood patterns they lived with, so in a weird way it gives them a sense of security)
for myself, I see this with therapists al the time - someone has "x" years of experience, and they are shown something that blows away what they were doing - they can either admit they need to "start over" (for a bit, at least), or just ignore it...of course, if u are always looking for a better way of doing things, then it's not nearly as destabilizing when you do find something, and you find over time that you don't have to start from ground zero; it also helps to be a "nobody", because when you are an "authority", it becomes next to impossible to drop that and begin anew, because your self-identity is wrapped up in being an expert and so is your livelihood - if you are teaching a system and find a fundamentally better one, what do you do? maybe in Maoshan's case, it appears he's trying to be able to justify teaching what he's teaching, so he's gonna keep trying to prove he can use it?

[taai gihk yahn]

doesnt matter what they think, since comming here i stopped believing all those crap about TCMA.

fair enough - I was just curious how the perception is at "the source"; but ultimately, you seem to have the "right view"...;)

[Pork Chop]

How does one do/defend against a superman punch?

I never learned that one. Link to vid or something?

err my post kinda mentions that- while they're flying, jack up their exposed ribs with either a push kick or a side kick. otherwise, either shell up or use head movement. the first trick is to be able to read it - because the knee starts to come up like a kick and you've got a split second to respond when you realize it's not a kick.

[Pork Chop]

The Thai boxer knew of Maoshan's weaknesses and used the same sweep that Lyte did as well as the ground choke hold from the back with leg wrap that Lyte used.


i would say it's more likely that maoshan's very vulnerable to these techniques because of his style (or lack thereof).
The kick catch & sweep is common in muay thai (and even more common in san shou).
Anybody who's ever seen a UFC fighting event knows about the rear naked choke.

[taai gihk yahn]

Anybody who's ever seen a UFC fighting event knows about the rear naked choke.
I guess training alone in the snowy woods, he didn't get cable or decent satellite reception...

[taai gihk yahn]

err my post kinda mentions that- while they're flying, jack up their exposed ribs with either a push kick or a side kick. otherwise, either shell up or use head movement. the first trick is to be able to read it - because the knee starts to come up like a kick and you've got a split second to respond when you realize it's not a kick.

it's funny - having done WTF TKD, where u see that punch not infrequently, you kinda get able to "read" the difference between that and a kick (of course, you don't have to worry about 99% of other available techniques, so you can kinda focus on what you do see more specifically)

[Eddie]

fair enough - I was just curious how the perception is at "the source"; but ultimately, you seem to have the "right view"...;)

sorry man. didnt mean to be rude. i was typing while doing something else.

the sanshou people i speak to dont believe in the crap either ;)

one thing i did learn since being here, is multi tasking

[taai gihk yahn]

sorry man. didnt mean to be rude. i was typing while doing something else.
not taken at all as such;


the sanshou people i speak to dont believe in the crap either
yeah, not surprising...they probably scratch their heads at all the peeps who come thousands of miles and pay thousands of $ to play make-believe...

[sanjuro_ronin]

I believe that there is a common trend amongst individuals who grow up somewhat disenfranchised by the "system" to build themselves up as an authority figure in an area outside of that system - TCMA being a system to which the mainstream really can't speak, it becomes relatively easy for one to set oneself up as a Master, Professor, Guru, Grand Poo-bah, etc. without those in the main being able to say anything about it; and that worked fine for many years when the mystique of TCMA ruled the waves - "if he says it's so, it must be so, because if it wasn't true, then the Shaolin Ninjas would come and do away with him"; of course, instead of the Shaolin Ninjas, you have a much more mundane mechanism by which the frauds are exposed these days...



if you live your life by the maxim "if I someone says something to me that makes me feel really insecure, then I should probably critically examine what they say", then this becomes less of a problem - and over time one gets better at self-regulating in this manner; but it requires the thing people don't seem to like putting time into, which is the skill of dispassionate self-assessment; meaning that, people wither like to not judge themselves at all, or on the other extreme, judge themselves in a way that is self-denigrating (probably because it repeats early childhood patterns they lived with, so in a weird way it gives them a sense of security)
for myself, I see this with therapists al the time - someone has "x" years of experience, and they are shown something that blows away what they were doing - they can either admit they need to "start over" (for a bit, at least), or just ignore it...of course, if u are always looking for a better way of doing things, then it's not nearly as destabilizing when you do find something, and you find over time that you don't have to start from ground zero; it also helps to be a "nobody", because when you are an "authority", it becomes next to impossible to drop that and begin anew, because your self-identity is wrapped up in being an expert and so is your livelihood - if you are teaching a system and find a fundamentally better one, what do you do? maybe in Maoshan's case, it appears he's trying to be able to justify teaching what he's teaching, so he's gonna keep trying to prove he can use it?

The thing is, where do you stop?
I mean, you will eventually find someone bad enough to beat and will that justify your MA as opposed to the 1 or 2 or 5 defeats?
Nope.
One defeat is enough because, IF you are a "real" MA and your MA is for the "real world", one defeat means you got killed.
One defeat is enough to see what is wrong and fix it, period.
Especially one as loop sided as we saw.

[Frost]

The thing is, where do you stop?
I mean, you will eventually find someone bad enough to beat and will that justify your MA as opposed to the 1 or 2 or 5 defeats?
Nope.
One defeat is enough because, IF you are a "real" MA and your MA is for the "real world", one defeat means you got killed.
One defeat is enough to see what is wrong and fix it, period.
Especially one as loop sided as we saw.

but when you have trained for decades its far easier to say its for the street not the ring, or for others to say it was the indivuduals failing and not the styles than to actually admit what you hae been being and training is ineffective

[David Jamieson]

but when you have trained for decades its far easier to say its for the street not the ring, or for others to say it was the indivuduals failing and not the styles than to actually admit what you hae been being and training is ineffective

the problem is, it is clear that the guy doesn't actually train for anything.
he simply doesn't invest in training and when he steps in a ring, it really shows that he doesn't invest in his own training.

Now, I'm not the best fighter, I'm probably somewhat mediocre in the grand scheme of things and when held against a competition fighter who is active...well, I suck.

But in my time when I was into it(comp), I invested time and it payed off.

the very fact that dude gets thrashed in the short run by someone who has way less time in speaks volumes to the flaw in the training method.

maoshan can talk all he likes, but he needs to man up and change his training if he is going to continue to try and enter into the ring and he needs to shut up on teh internet with all his crap talk.

Unless he's a total masochist in which case..well he's doing it right? :p

[sanjuro_ronin]

You can't spend your life fighting hard or full contact fighting on a regular basis.
But if you want to test your MA and have confidence in it and not dilusion, you must spend SOME time doing that.
I myself have a few too many injuries and health issues to do full contact on a regular basis, matter of fact I haven\t done it in 2 years.
But I spent better part of a decade doing just that and as much as I could and with whomever I could.
That experience is priceless.

[No_Know]

Someone about 52 (Blocks) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PwMBQCbWnAc)

About 52 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bc9XpqkURBg&NR=1)

One called Sifu Ben Hill seemed to be a Ba Guaist. The demo happened for whyever. one called Black Taoist seemed true-corp Ba Gua if they are teacher student whicheverway, then that's the Ba gua talk and shirt. I did not notice the tie in with 52 Blocks.

The two links go into and seem about information as to what 52 or 52 Blocks is or is about.

I like the community of this 52.

I liked one called Sifu Ben Hill's tree training because I like that kind of thing. I like the wall bouncing for some clips of 52 Blocks stuff, because when younger I did wall work when I was (Ernie Moore Jr.'s Kung-Fu.) Squirrling.

I would do that side body type thing on a cementblock wall or brick or conglomerate or the floor/ground. I think it helped my breathing.

Street doesnt last three minitues. Ring you don't worry about others jumping in. fighting when your sweetheart is watching might differ than when it's just your friends or when no one is wathching...I think one called Sifu Ben Hill has good training. Butthere comes with observation and comprehension and practice of applying how to apply technique in the right place. But the S L I G H Test distraction puts a right technique wrong. And there was at least one place where one called Maoshan could have clocked The other guy (Muay thai) deliberately but there was off (I think). And Maoshan went for throws of the leg much, tried to not hit whyever and got the leg once but perhaps didn't have the preparation for such a limber foe and what would have thrown many non-flexible people left him with a leg and them both standing close.


No_Know

[CFT]

I liked one called Sifu Ben Hill's tree training because I like that kind of thing.I like that kind of thing too, but didn't you think it all looked rather ineffectual? Seemed a bit "slappy" to me, no body behind the palms at all.

Looked like a nice setting though.

[TAO YIN]

Maoshan got the first take down. Real fight over after that because of bled out kidney from knife wound...AND...:D

The real street argument...That is why so many weapon forms. MMA has a form called the 45 9. Great handgun form. Hybrid...

[CFT]

Maoshan got the first take down. Real fight over after that because of bled out kidney from knife wound...AND...:D

The real street argument...That is why so many weapon forms. MMA has a form called the 45 9. Great handgun form. Hybrid...You mean the one at 2:14 that Nak performed on Maoshan?

[TAO YIN]

Whichever one,

I like it in The Last Boy Scout when 'Billy Cole' starts kneecapping to get his touchdown. The Real Football!!!

How many here train for the reality of a gunshot wound? Do you carry tinchut with your to help the wounds? Or? Who practices dodging? What knifes work best for the street and why? What knifes work best for the ring? The cage?

[taai gihk yahn]

Whichever one,

I like it in The Last Boy Scout when 'Billy Cole' starts kneecapping to get his touchdown. The Real Football!!!

How many here train for the reality of a gunshot wound? Do you carry tinchut with your to help the wounds? Or? Who practices dodging? What knifes work best for the street and why? What knifes work best for the ring? The cage?

I always carry an ample supply of Dermabond with me, so I am the Most Prepared for T3h Str33™ out of all of you.

And my wife is a gynaecologist.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I always carry an ample supply of Dermabond with me, so I am the Most Prepared for T3h Str33™ out of all of you.

And my wife is a gynaecologist.

*rimshot*:D

[MasterKiller]

Anyone see Maoshan's "training" video for the fight?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIq4jZAijvc&feature=related

[CFT]

^^
ghostexorcist posted the link on page 3. It doesn't get better with repeated viewing.

[Brule]

^^
ghostexorcist posted the link on page 3. It doesn't get better with repeated viewing.

Actually, i think it does :D

Goes to show that Shaw brothers productions were really only movies and not depiction of real training for da str33t de@dly!!!!!

This whole thing is bad for MA in general. You could see it from the first kick he took and his body language. Man just wasn't ready in no way shape or form.

[taai gihk yahn]

^^
ghostexorcist posted the link on page 3. It doesn't get better with repeated viewing.

And he makes the standard dumb as dog sht comme t about how bagua doesn't train muscle instead it trains tendons bec it's internal

people should actually study anatomy in order to know WTF they are talking about bef repeating garbage lime that

[sanjuro_ronin]

I didn't watch the training video before and now I regret that I watched it.
It must be some kind of joke, I don't believe that ANYONE trains ofr an upcoming fight but NOT fighting.
Sorry, that defies logic and common sense.

[David Jamieson]

lol "training for a fight"

with what? that difficult can of peas that won't open?

that was the most ridiculous "training for a fight video I've seen!"

training forms is NOT training to fight. Training forms is like reading a book with a little exercise. It physical rote memory work that must be taken to other levels to be fully understood (read: applied in context)

tapping pitty pats at a tree is NOT training to fight.

walking in circles is about teh most useless thing you could do to train for a fight.

Training for a fight involves:

1) getting your cardio vascular endurance to it's peak form

2) sparring

3) drilling the crap out of your toolbox favs

4) eat it, sleep it, live it, love it.

Clearly that dude was trained incorrectly and was not prepared for any sort fo real conflict. Sadly, I think there may be more than him who think this is fight training.

To train to fight is not the same as what is trained while learning tma. It's a whole different tack.

[ghostexorcist]

Anyone see Maoshan's "training" video for the fight?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIq4jZAijvc&feature=related
I posted it a couple of pages back. It is pretty ridiculous. Lightly bumping and slapping a tree is not good prep for a fight.

[Yum Cha]

****, with that deep voice and soundtrack, it reminds me of a Barry White video...

Man's got a groove, that's for sure.

[BGZ BadBoy]

I had to chime in here. I don't personally like Ben Hill any more than anyone else does (I've got my reasons), but isn't it all too easy to sit behind a computer and rail him from the safety of your living room, instead of saying something to him personally? I thought his fight was disappointing to say the very least..he was ill-prepared and out classed, and it clearly showed. But instead of trying to come off like the bunch of armchair experts you're making yourselves out to be, why don't you step-up to Nakmeezy and see how long you stand? Better yet, why don't you step-up to Ben and put your money where your mouths are instead of just talking behind his back? Not gonna happen. I guarantee that if Ben were face to face with you, you'd have a whole different attitude. Again, I am anything but a Maoshan fan, but it's just beyond entertaining to sit and listen to a bunch of acne-ridden adolescents run-off at the mouth about someone when he's not even here to defend himself. The obvious act of cowards. Wow, I bet your parents are all SO proud..lol. Peace.

[dimethylsea]

I had to chime in here. I don't personally like Ben Hill any more than anyone else does (I've got my reasons), but isn't it all too easy to sit behind a computer and rail him from the safety of your living room, instead of saying something to him personally? I thought his fight was disappointing to say the very least..he was ill-prepared and out classed, and it clearly showed. But instead of trying to come off like the bunch of armchair experts you're making yourselves out to be, why don't you step-up to Nakmeezy and see how long you stand? Better yet, why don't you step-up to Ben and put your money where your mouths are instead of just talking behind his back? Not gonna happen. I guarantee that if Ben were face to face with you, you'd have a whole different attitude. Again, I am anything but a Maoshan fan, but it's just beyond entertaining to sit and listen to a bunch of acne-ridden adolescents run-off at the mouth about someone when he's not even here to defend himself. The obvious act of cowards. Wow, I bet your parents are all SO proud..lol. Peace.

It's not "talking behind one's back" to have a public conversation in a public forum of which Maoshan is himself a member.

On the contrary more and more we see certain parties sticking to Youtube "trash talk/comment" videos where they are not required to respond to direct and unpleasant questions (not that they were ever good at the battle of internet wits anyway).

The deep and delicious irony of a skinny little midwestern whiteboy trying to run the "ghetto Yin" mentality of the New York crew and dis others on that basis... well I just have to say.. you haven't the melanin levels or the gangstah cred to pull it off.

Sorry.. :D

[BGZ BadBoy]

Wow..the uneducated opinion of a nurse from Tennessee regarding so-called "gangsta cred"..lol. I'll take that into consideration..lol.

[cerebus]

I had to chime in here. I don't personally like Ben Hill any more than anyone else does (I've got my reasons), but isn't it all too easy to sit behind a computer and rail him from the safety of your living room, instead of saying something to him personally? I thought his fight was disappointing to say the very least..he was ill-prepared and out classed, and it clearly showed. But instead of trying to come off like the bunch of armchair experts you're making yourselves out to be, why don't you step-up to Nakmeezy and see how long you stand? Better yet, why don't you step-up to Ben and put your money where your mouths are instead of just talking behind his back? Not gonna happen. I guarantee that if Ben were face to face with you, you'd have a whole different attitude. Again, I am anything but a Maoshan fan, but it's just beyond entertaining to sit and listen to a bunch of acne-ridden adolescents run-off at the mouth about someone when he's not even here to defend himself. The obvious act of cowards. Wow, I bet your parents are all SO proud..lol. Peace.

Why? Because I'm unemployed and live on the other side of the country, that's why. You wanna spot me a round-trip plane ticket and accommodations in NYC, I'd love to set up a match with Ben (if he'd like to do so). Or better yet, spot Ben the ticket & accommodations to come out here to Oakland. I've had many discussions with him over the internet, I appreciate his willingness to fight, but there are many things I'd love to be able to demonstrate in person.

As for cowardice, what have you done? Are you willing to come out here to Oakland and have a match against me? If not, does that make YOU a coward? Not everyone can afford to just jet-set all over the country fighting everyone who wants to fight them. If you ever DO get to Oakland, let me know. I'm always happy to have a scrap with anyone who wants to fight.

[Frost]

I had to chime in here. I don't personally like Ben Hill any more than anyone else does (I've got my reasons), but isn't it all too easy to sit behind a computer and rail him from the safety of your living room, instead of saying something to him personally? I thought his fight was disappointing to say the very least..he was ill-prepared and out classed, and it clearly showed. But instead of trying to come off like the bunch of armchair experts you're making yourselves out to be, why don't you step-up to Nakmeezy and see how long you stand? Better yet, why don't you step-up to Ben and put your money where your mouths are instead of just talking behind his back? Not gonna happen. I guarantee that if Ben were face to face with you, you'd have a whole different attitude. Again, I am anything but a Maoshan fan, but it's just beyond entertaining to sit and listen to a bunch of acne-ridden adolescents run-off at the mouth about someone when he's not even here to defend himself. The obvious act of cowards. Wow, I bet your parents are all SO proud..lol. Peace.

oh god I thought you were going to do us all a favour and stop posting please keep your word this place is much better without your inane ramblings.... and by the way signing everything peace after insulting everyone is just stupid stop it

as for putting up or shutting up why don’t you lead by example and list all those elite fighters you have trained.....

[taai gihk yahn]

I had to chime in here.
Welcome back; glad u hav chosen to participate in at least a somewhat meaningful way as opposed to your usual hit&run style


I don't personally like Ben Hill any more than anyone else does (I've got my reasons),
Ok, so first off, unlike u, the majority of folks here neither lime nor dislike Ben, having had no personal experience w him; so just bear that in mind when u consider the context for most peoples posts on the thread - meaning that whatever is said it's not a comment on him personally but rather on his publically posted videos


but isn't it all too easy to sit behind a computer and rail him from the safety of your living room, instead of saying something to him personally?
Well, yes; it's certainly easier since no one is going to go to Syracuse just to talk to him; as far as safety, r u implying that somehow talking to him in person wud put one at risk for harm?


I thought his fight was disappointing to say the very least..he was ill-prepared and out classed, and it clearly showed.
We wud all agree on that...


But instead of trying to come off like the bunch of armchair experts you're making yourselves out to be,
No one here is making themselves out to b anything other than what they r; which is a mix of people who run tha gamut of active / former full-contact competitors, str33t fighters, the occasional stone-mason/conspiracy theorist :p and egg-headed hobbyist (yours truly)


why don't you step-up to Nakmeezy and see how long you stand?
can't speak for others, myself it wud b about 2.5 sec at this point!


Better yet, why don't you step-up to Ben and put your money where your mouths are instead of just talking behind his back?
Ok, not to sound pedantic, but u DO realize this is a public forum, and if I am not mistaken, Ben has posted here in the past as has Novell, and probably any number of folks associated w them; so it's safe to say he's aware of the thread by now; alternately, I believe Ghostexorcist sent him a direct email w some constructive comments and got a reply consisting or personal attacks and "come say it to my face-isms"; so again, it's not that anyone is trying to talk behind his back;


Not gonna happen. I guarantee that if Ben were face to face with you, you'd have a whole different attitude.
That's a bit of an over-simplification - if I had the occasion to speak face to face and he asked for my opinino, I'd give it the same as here; if he indicated that he didn't want it, I wouldn't; however, the point of this discussion is not so much about critiquing him as an individual or even his peformance per se, but as much about the so-called "internal" or if u want, "traditional" methodology in general; u appear to want to personalize it to the exclusion of there being any purvue for a general discussion - bottom line, while everyone agrees that he should be given credit for stepping into the ring, at the same time it does not absolve him from public commentary and analysis


Again, I am anything but a Maoshan fan, but it's just beyond entertaining to sit and listen to a bunch of acne-ridden adolescents run-off at the mouth about someone when he's not even here to defend himself. The obvious act of cowards. Wow, I bet your parents are all SO proud..lol. Peace.
it's unfortunate that u continue to utilize this puerile method of posting - characterizing people as acne-ridden is just silly, most of us are well beyond adolescence, and again, it's a public forum that he can access as well as anyone; u seem to deal in extremes - in your estimation, unless someone gets up into someone else's face then it's cowardice; but u seem to see the world in black and white as opposed to the shades of gray it really is - and as for my parents, they are very proud of me, thank you very much; are yours proud of you?

[taai gihk yahn]

oh god I thought you were going to do us all a favour and stop posting please keep your word this place is much better without your inane ramblings.... and by the way signing everything peace after insulting everyone is just stupid stop it

as for putting up or shutting up why don’t you lead by example and list all those elite fighters you have trained.....

hey, be nice - he obviously wants to hang here, but just had to show his tough side first - he's really a softie at heart who's had a rough time in life, so give him a little leeway, ok? ;)

[cerebus]

Meh, whatever. As I said in my last post, I'm happy to fight. People who know me know that I'm happy to fight. Take a vacation, come visit the SF Bay Area of California. Bring ice-packs...

[taai gihk yahn]

Meh, whatever. As I said in my last post, I'm happy to fight. People who know me know that I'm happy to fight. Take a vacation, come visit the SF Bay Area of California. Bring ice-packs...
if u fly me out as well, I can fix the looser...:D:cool:

[goju]

who the hell woudl fly across country to spar or fight soemone

sheeesh if you do that you need a girlfriend BADLY LOL

[cerebus]

who the hell woudl fly across country to spar or fight soemone

sheeesh if you do that you need a girlfriend BADLY LOL

Hey, if someone can, or is willing to, cover the costs I'll be happy to fly out & fight. My priority right now is becoming re-employed, so my preference would be that the individual wanting to fight come out here, but hey if I don't end up with a job right away, or the scheduling doesn't screw with any job I might get, I'd love to travel for a fight...

[goju]

Hey, if someone can, or is willing to, cover the costs I'll be happy to fly out & fight. My priority right now is becoming re-employed, so my preference would be that the individual wanting to fight come out here, but hey if I don't end up with a job right away, or the scheduling doesn't screw with any job I might get, I'd love to travel for a fight...


if there was money to be made through the fight that would be motivation for traveling too:D

[Lucas]

pay for some round trip plane tickets for me to australia or hawaii or something of that nature and you can just plain beat my ass, idc. just beat my ass after i take in the sites. thats a free vacation yo.

[cerebus]

Hello? Anyone there? Tyson Durr?

[phoenixdog]

pa kua man is ****.thai man is ****.this fight is bs.

[Pork Chop]

I had to chime in here. I don't personally like Ben Hill any more than anyone else does (I've got my reasons), but isn't it all too easy to sit behind a computer and rail him from the safety of your living room, instead of saying something to him personally? I thought his fight was disappointing to say the very least..he was ill-prepared and out classed, and it clearly showed. But instead of trying to come off like the bunch of armchair experts you're making yourselves out to be, why don't you step-up to Nakmeezy and see how long you stand? Better yet, why don't you step-up to Ben and put your money where your mouths are instead of just talking behind his back? Not gonna happen. I guarantee that if Ben were face to face with you, you'd have a whole different attitude. Again, I am anything but a Maoshan fan, but it's just beyond entertaining to sit and listen to a bunch of acne-ridden adolescents run-off at the mouth about someone when he's not even here to defend himself. The obvious act of cowards. Wow, I bet your parents are all SO proud..lol. Peace.

I remember back during the Nick Thompson fiasco, when Ben was running his mouth then. I posted that if I lived there I'd step up, but I don't have the time or money to go half way across the country. Believe me, there were folks in NY state that were CLAMORING for Ben, so I woulda had to wait in line anyway. Besides that, BT's in my weight class, not Ben, so if I'ma travel cross country to prove something, it'll be against BT not Ben.

As others have said before, both guys come to this site, we've had conversations with both guys. Heck, years back, when I still lived on the east coast, I was in attendance at the Wong Fei Hung Tournament in NJ where BT was hosting his little bagua tournament. Actually there were a bunch of us there: Subitai, TenTigers, meltdawn, Ray Pina, ShaolinLueb, and others I'm forgetting.

[David Jamieson]

I had to chime in here. I don't personally like Ben Hill any more than anyone else does (I've got my reasons), but isn't it all too easy to sit behind a computer and rail him from the safety of your living room, instead of saying something to him personally? I thought his fight was disappointing to say the very least..he was ill-prepared and out classed, and it clearly showed. But instead of trying to come off like the bunch of armchair experts you're making yourselves out to be, why don't you step-up to Nakmeezy and see how long you stand? Better yet, why don't you step-up to Ben and put your money where your mouths are instead of just talking behind his back? Not gonna happen. I guarantee that if Ben were face to face with you, you'd have a whole different attitude. Again, I am anything but a Maoshan fan, but it's just beyond entertaining to sit and listen to a bunch of acne-ridden adolescents run-off at the mouth about someone when he's not even here to defend himself. The obvious act of cowards. Wow, I bet your parents are all SO proud..lol. Peace.

Dude, stfu, *edit <ranting>rrrr</ranting>
the end*

[Yum Cha]

Some guy vainly keeps posting videos of himself (getting owned) on YouTube....

When people publicly talk about his 'publicity machine' the word is, they are talking behind his back? i.e. being disrespectful.

And so, the solution is, to once again, lay out blanket challenges to touch hands and feel his wrath?

Which no doubt leads to more videos of him getting owned, more trash talk, more challenges at an ever increasing frequency...

They say the first rule when you're in a hole is to stop digging.

What does Black Taoist have to do with all this? He used to post here, he was good value. Are these his boys or what?

[David Jamieson]

if u fly me out as well, I can fix the looser...:D:cool: clever


who the hell woudl fly across country to spar or fight soemone

sheeesh if you do that you need a girlfriend BADLY LOL tgy will do it to fix you. it's part of the condolence prize where a guy feels you up after your fight.


pay for some round trip plane tickets for me to australia or hawaii or something of that nature and you can just plain beat my ass, idc. just beat my ass after i take in the sites. thats a free vacation yo. bring health insurance.


I wonder if the united states postal service has a standard shipping fee and a box big enough to hold a martial artist/fighter.;) They do, but you need a friend and a lot of tinfoil to block the back scatter x-ray, so, mark yourself as a statue and remain very still, like a ninja, until you know you're in the air.

[Frost]

I remember back during the Nick Thompson fiasco, when Ben was running his mouth then. I posted that if I lived there I'd step up, but I don't have the time or money to go half way across the country. Believe me, there were folks in NY state that were CLAMORING for Ben, so I woulda had to wait in line anyway. Besides that, BT's in my weight class, not Ben, so if I'ma travel cross country to prove something, it'll be against BT not Ben.

As others have said before, both guys come to this site, we've had conversations with both guys. Heck, years back, when I still lived on the east coast, I was in attendance at the Wong Fei Hung Tournament in NJ where BT was hosting his little bagua tournament. Actually there were a bunch of us there: Subitai, TenTigers, meltdawn, Ray Pina, ShaolinLueb, and others I'm forgetting.

yep and i remember back in the day when those two used to sound off about how most traditional guys can't fight and are dilusional.....and how they were different etc, you reap what you sow

[Brule]

All credit goes out to the guy for trying out his stuff against resisting opponents, that's more than a lot of other TMA's bring to the table. But he's got to see that this is a disconnect in his training. Usually when people spar/fight and get owned, they see the error in their ways and try to improve/fix what they are doing to be better prepared the next time. From the sound of his post-fight video, it doesn't look like he's done that and continues to think his Ba Gua is da street deadly, which is sad to see and unfortunatley is what happens a lot in kung fu circles.

[sanjuro_ronin]

It's simple guys, all the conditioning in the world, in all it's various forms, are tools to get a fighter into "shape", but they do NOT a fighter make, fighting does.
You MUST fight when training for a fight, or at least have had some fighting experience leading up to it ( though sparring should still be included).
If for NOTHING else, just to get used to getting hit by someone trying to hit you HARD.

[Lucas]

bring health insurance.



ive got full coverage :D

are you saying you want to send me to australia and beat my azz in the bush?

[taai gihk yahn]

clever
thank you :cool:


tgy will do it to fix you. it's part of the condolence prize where a guy feels you up after your fight.
as Ross likes to say, I am legally licensed to rub people the wrong way...


bring health insurance.
I don't take insurance...:eek:


remain very still, like a ninja, until you know you're in the air.
then what?...

[Lucas]

I don't take insurance...:eek:




crap.....do you take gene ching's autograph as payment?

[cerebus]

crap.....do you take gene ching's autograph as payment?

Doesn't everybody? :D

[Lucas]

they **** well better!

[MasterKiller]

I had to chime in here. I don't personally like Ben Hill any more than anyone else does (I've got my reasons), but isn't it all too easy to sit behind a computer and rail him from the safety of your living room, instead of saying something to him personally? I thought his fight was disappointing to say the very least..he was ill-prepared and out classed, and it clearly showed. But instead of trying to come off like the bunch of armchair experts you're making yourselves out to be, why don't you step-up to Nakmeezy and see how long you stand? Better yet, why don't you step-up to Ben and put your money where your mouths are instead of just talking behind his back? Not gonna happen. I guarantee that if Ben were face to face with you, you'd have a whole different attitude. Again, I am anything but a Maoshan fan, but it's just beyond entertaining to sit and listen to a bunch of acne-ridden adolescents run-off at the mouth about someone when he's not even here to defend himself. The obvious act of cowards. Wow, I bet your parents are all SO proud..lol. Peace.

LOL at the internet tough guy with "20 years of fight experience" but no fight record accusing others of being internet tough guys!

[taai gihk yahn]

crap.....do you take gene ching's autograph as payment?
having met Gene in person and shook his hand last summer, his autograph does not at present generate the excitement it once did; however, at the point when the skin on my palm has naturally sloughed off, then I suppose I might re-consider...of course, I haven't washed the hand since and in fact I keep it hermetically sealed in a cryogenically cooled plastic bag in order to minimize local metabolic activity, so that may not be for sometime...

[David Jamieson]

then what?...
Then you can move about freely in the box.

[BGZ BadBoy]

Lol at the "MasterKiller" who's got his little pink panties in a bunch over this "internet tough guy"..lol. Still waiting for you to contact me personally instead of just talking smack on a forum thread. Did I mention you haven't yet? Of course you haven't..and you won't. From now on, I'm simply going to respond to your posts with "blah blah blah blah blah blah" because that's all I'm hearing, man..lol. Tell us, does the sand in your vagigi burn at all?..lol. What an idiot..lol.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Lol at the "MasterKiller" who's got his little pink panties in a bunch over this "internet tough guy"..lol. Still waiting for you to contact me personally instead of just talking smack on a forum thread. Did I mention you haven't yet? Of course you haven't..and you won't. From now on, I'm simply going to respond to your posts with "blah blah blah blah blah blah" because that's all I'm hearing, man..lol. Tell us, does the sand in your vagigi burn at all?..lol. What an idiot..lol.

How did you know that MK wears pink panties???
:confused:

[Frost]

Lol at the "MasterKiller" who's got his little pink panties in a bunch over this "internet tough guy"..lol. Still waiting for you to contact me personally instead of just talking smack on a forum thread. Did I mention you haven't yet? Of course you haven't..and you won't. From now on, I'm simply going to respond to your posts with "blah blah blah blah blah blah" because that's all I'm hearing, man..lol. Tell us, does the sand in your vagigi burn at all?..lol. What an idiot..lol.

and i think we are all still waiting to here about all those fighters you have trained......:rolleyes:

[Lucas]

high powered telescope...doesnt everyone have one?

[taai gihk yahn]

How did you know that MK wears pink panties???
:confused:

prolly cause he wears the pair that MK stuffed in his mouth to dampen the screams...

[taai gihk yahn]

Lol at the "MasterKiller" who's got his little pink panties in a bunch over this "internet tough guy"..lol. Still waiting for you to contact me personally instead of just talking smack on a forum thread. Did I mention you haven't yet? Of course you haven't..and you won't. From now on, I'm simply going to respond to your posts with "blah blah blah blah blah blah" because that's all I'm hearing, man..lol. Tell us, does the sand in your vagigi burn at all?..lol. What an idiot..lol.

so, basically, this is an example of how you are NOT going to post on this forum, is it?

[BGZ BadBoy]

TGY..sometimes I just can't help myself. You guys make it way too easy..lol. Entertainment is, after all, entertaining..lol.

[MasterKiller]

http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=5654&stc=1&d=1271958468

[bawang]

wots going on? im confused

[Lucas]

mini flame battle. get your beard ready!

[SoCo KungFu]

Lol at the "MasterKiller" who's got his little pink panties in a bunch over this "internet tough guy"..lol. Still waiting for you to contact me personally instead of just talking smack on a forum thread. Did I mention you haven't yet? Of course you haven't..and you won't. From now on, I'm simply going to respond to your posts with "blah blah blah blah blah blah" because that's all I'm hearing, man..lol. Tell us, does the sand in your vagigi burn at all?..lol. What an idiot..lol.

http://pr.mo.gov/athletics-mmaresults.asp

You aren't listed here. Who have you fought? Who have you trained? Answer or you're just another "cowardly armchair expert." Or as I like to call you, douche.

[MasterKiller]

http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=5655&stc=1&d=1271959285

[SoCo KungFu]

wots going on? im confused

Waldo thinks he's a MMA expert. Claims 20 years of fighting experience. And Goju's cat does bagua. Or was that Waldo's cat?

[SoCo KungFu]

http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=5655&stc=1&d=1271959285

That explains his hat fetish. Look at that forehead!

[bawang]

i think we shudnt be too harsh and give him a break. what would chinese jesus do?
and u guys need to train more. b a man.

[Lucas]

tgy already tried the chinese jesus approach. i only internet when im stuck at work. i get a lot of downtime. when no ones looking i do push ups or sit ups. or standing....can i have some chicken wings?

[bawang]

looking at ben hill and tyler durr reminds me of myself and my own laziness and failing and inspire me to train more. i have no right to make fun of critisize them when im not much better, maybe worse.

[Lucas]

if you do 100 punches every time u eat a piece of chicken, u will be the most powerful kungfu guy ever.

[bawang]

dood how u get so much free tiem

i havent had sleep in the last 2 days because of school
can i have sum monies pls

[Lucas]

i pay too much taxes to give u my monies. :p but im 30 i dont go to school. i work 40+ hours a week. but my job sometimes has very slow periods. sometimes very busy periods. either i am doing 500 things at once, or nothing at all. but then sometimes people put guns in my face too....

[BGZ BadBoy]

SoCo KungFu..I don't know why I'm giving you even this much info (you must've caught me in a good mood..lol), but if you MUST know, try contacting Ike Stafford/Fight Game Productions, Springfield, MO. He ran the fights for all of my guys in Springfield from '99-2001. If you don't know who Ike Stafford is, then you don't know your fight promotion game even half as good as you think you do, my friend.
Also..MasterKiller, Thanks for the pic man! I'm using it for my facebook profile pic..lol. BTW..it's also posted on the website if you care to have a look.

Oh, I almost forgot the link op:

http://www.wudangzenfightclub.yolasite.com/

P.S. MK..Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah (I didn't want you to accuse me of not keeping my word..lol).

[bawang]

with the power of chinese jesus hong xious quan bullets cannot hram u
i pray 2 him everyday befor i lift weits i ask him 2 crush my enemyes

[MasterKiller]

SoCo KungFu..I don't know why I'm giving you even this much info (you must've caught me in a good mood..lol), but if you MUST know, try contacting Ike Stafford/Fight Game Productions, Springfield, MO. He ran the fights for all of my guys in Springfield from '99-2001. If you don't know who Ike Stafford is, then you don't know your fight promotion game even half as good as you think you do, my friend.
Also..MasterKiller, Thanks for the pic man! I'm using it for my facebook profile pic..lol. BTW..it's also posted on the website if you care to have a look.

Oh, I almost forgot the link op:

http://www.wudangzenfightclub.yolasite.com/

P.S. MK..Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah (I didn't want you to accuse me of not keeping my word..lol).

http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=5656&stc=1&d=1271960530

[Lucas]

with the power of chinese jesus hong xious quan bullets cannot hram u
i pray 2 him everyday befor i lift weits i ask him 2 crush my enemyes

have he crush any yet?

[bawang]

he appear to me in a vision he says maybe tomorow but he needs 2 meat a frend so maybe busy

hong xiou quan is the most awesome chinese guy ever. he convinced 1 million farmers he was jesus then took 2000 wives

if he had one poonany a day it would take 7 years to finish maybe 8 if he takes weekened brakes

[Lucas]

you convince me bawang i am converting to your religion. how do i start praying 2 get my enemies crushed?? no u dont get my moonies!

[mickey]

Greetings,

After repeated viewings of Maoshan's latest and the memory of viewings of the Maoshan/Lyte, I find that the fights have a Pythonesque quality to them. especially when Maoshan falls for the same techniques. It is hilarious actually. It reminds me of Super Dave as well.

There is one thing that Maoshan said that does have some truth to it; yet, he does not explain it well. There is a difference between sparring someone and attempting to flat out disengage someone from this planet. The targets are different. One's arousal level is different. One's mindset is different. Have we forgotten those days when tournament competitors got taken out by people who simply knew how to destroy somebody?

mickey

[Lucas]

here is a present for you: hong xiuquan

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/de/Hongxiuquan.jpg

[bawang]

you convince me bawang i am converting to your religion. how do i start praying 2 get my enemies crushed?? no u dont get my moonies!

it easy my fren

u print this off from color printer then pray every day befor u lift weights
"great sky king hong xiuquan pls crush my enemyes and grant me strength thanx"

http://space.tv.cctv.com/image/20081223/IMAG1230017837740652.jpg

[MasterKiller]

SoCo KungFu..I don't know why I'm giving you even this much info (you must've caught me in a good mood..lol), but if you MUST know, try contacting Ike Stafford/Fight Game Productions, Springfield, MO. He ran the fights for all of my guys in Springfield from '99-2001. . Why does he have to chase down the promoter just to get the names of your students? Just post the names of the guys you personally trained who "finished in the tops of their divisions" in MMA and Muay Thai (whatever that is supposed to mean).

[Lucas]

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

what does that say bawang. dont lead me wrong here! i need a religion!

[bawang]

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

what does that say bawang. dont lead me wrong here! i need a religion!
crush ur enemyes c them driven befor u and hear lamentation of their womans

he is 100x better than white jesus

[BGZ BadBoy]

Awww..I think MK's about to cry..lol. Oh, almost forgot..Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah.

[bawang]

which jesus is better chinese jesushttp://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:z5Vls4SAqpKFNM:http://1812.img.pp.sohu.com.cn/images/blog/2008/6/28/20/5/11b746c596e.jpg

or white jesus http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:7dsehjm_w7gIWM:http://hulkhatetimetravel.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/gesumise.jpg

i rest my case

[MasterKiller]

Awww..I think MK's about to cry..lol. Oh, almost forgot..Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah.

Post the names of the guys you personally trained who "finished in the tops of their divisions" in MMA and Muay Thai (whatever that is supposed to mean).

[Pork Chop]

Post the names of the guys you personally trained who "finished in the tops of their divisions" in MMA and Muay Thai (whatever that is supposed to mean).

he's just mouthing off because you said you weren't gonna go up there. lol
if he was antagonizing me, i might get upset too, but it's hard to take a guy that's so tiny and goofy at all seriously.

[Frost]

Awww..I think MK's about to cry..lol. Oh, almost forgot..Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah.

translation i am a video trained nobody who has not trained any fighters and runs classes in my back garden for the few idiots silly enough to train with me

[BGZ BadBoy]

Just a re-post (in-case anyone missed it):

SoCo KungFu..I don't know why I'm giving you even this much info (you must've caught me in a good mood..lol), but if you MUST know, try contacting Ike Stafford/Fight Game Productions, Springfield, MO. He ran the fights for all of my guys in Springfield from '99-2001. If you don't know who Ike Stafford is, then you don't know your fight promotion game even half as good as you think you do, my friend.
Also..MasterKiller, Thanks for the pic man! I'm using it for my facebook profile pic..lol. BTW..it's also posted on the website if you care to have a look.

Oh, I almost forgot the link op:

http://www.wudangzenfightclub.yolasite.com/

P.S. MK..Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah (I didn't want you to accuse me of not keeping my word).

[MasterKiller]

P.S. MK..Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah (I didn't want you to accuse me of not keeping my word).

What a f@cking moron. You claim that you trained fighters that "won their divisions in MMA and Muay Thai," yet can't post a single name. Where did you train them, at the f@cking park? Did they do their cardio on the monkeybars?LOL!

You b1tch about people not backing up their clams, yet you yourself refuse to do just that. When I called you out on the reference to MMA/San Da on your website, your tucked your tail and changed it.

You're the worst kind of wanna-be d0uche...trying and failing to start multiple workout groups, trying to sell DVDs in multiple arts (Wing Chun and Bagua), trying really hard to associate yourself with bigger names to sound relevant, and creating a website to advertise your fake workout group, all with fake disclaimers from fake people trying to bolster your claims and ego.

At 40 years old, it's safe to say you failed at life.

[Lucas]

which jesus is better chinese jesushttp://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:z5Vls4SAqpKFNM:http://1812.img.pp.sohu.com.cn/images/blog/2008/6/28/20/5/11b746c596e.jpg

or white jesus http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:7dsehjm_w7gIWM:http://hulkhatetimetravel.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/gesumise.jpg

i rest my case

what do you call this religion. i prayed before i ate my chicken and after i ate my chicken today to hong xiuquan to crush my enemies.

[goju]

how do i pray for chinese jesus to shut up cat bagua man already:D

[BGZ BadBoy]

MK..In case you think I forgot, Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah..lol. Still waiting for that e-mail or phone call, man. No? Well, I understand..I wouldn't want to phuck with me either..lol. You might want to keep an eye on my website though..just a suggestion..lol.

[MasterKiller]

And even more proof of his d0uch-baggery:


WTBA Membership: WTBA (World Taiji Boxing Association) membership is available on request/pending approval. A $10 fee (lifetime membership) is applied to cover application and proccessing.
http://wudangzenfightclub.yolasite.com/membership-fees.php

But according to the WTBA website, membership is free!


If you wish to join the WTBA, you will find an on-line application form. There is no charge for this in keeping with WTBA policy, that joining fees and grading fees should be nil! however, the applicant must have some knowledge of the WTBA and what is taught or be in some way connected, for instance via Erle's videos etc.

http://www.taijiworld.com/WTBA/wtba.htm

So he's a FRAUD and a wanna-be!

[MasterKiller]

LOL at taking NY San Da off his links page after LKFMDC (the owner of NY San Da) made fun of him!

[Lucas]

how do i pray for chinese jesus to shut up cat bagua man already:D

u need to give bawang monies

[BGZ BadBoy]

BTW..I charge the $10 application and processing fee (my time's not free), not Erle. You can go ahead and apply directly with Erle if you'd like..but without at least some idea of what Erle teaches, you'll get turned-down flat. You can try though, be my guest.
Oh, and that somehow constitutes fraud? Wow..you're just grasping at straws now, man..those little pink panties of yours must really be riding up..lol.
You know, for someone who claims I'm not worth his time, you sure do spend a disproportionately large amount of your time hitting my site and making absurd accusations here..lol. Wow, you are even more pathetic than I thought..lol.

BTW..Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah..lol.

[MasterKiller]

BTW..I charge the $10 application and processing fee (my time's not free), not Erle.BTW..Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah..lol.

You basically charge $10 to mail their form to Erle, which they can do for free. What a d0uche.


but without at least some idea of what Erle teaches, you'll get turned-down flat. You can try though, be my guest.
So you're saying you allow anyone to join HIS organization regardless of his rules, so you can collect $10... Man, what a d0uche.

[goju]

You know, for someone who claims I'm not worth his time, you sure do spend a disproportionately large amount of your time hitting my site and making absurd accusations here..lol. Wow, you are even more pathetic than I thought..lol.

this is exactly what you are doing on here the only difference is we arent wearing a stupid hat:D

[taai gihk yahn]

TGY..sometimes I just can't help myself. You guys make it way too easy..lol. Entertainment is, after all, entertaining..lol.
well, that's kind of a half-baked - your attitude is like, "I post on here to say that I don't wanna post here but then I can't help but posting on here"; why go through all that silliness? admit it - you want to post here - big deal; you can still be a pin-headed twit all you like, we can respect that, but enough with the feigned disinterest already, it's lame;

the other thing about contacting you "in person"; I don't get this - are you suggesting that instead of posting opinions here that people should e-mail / phone you? why bother? that's not any fun at all, to here you get on the horn and listen to you tell them to f*ck off; see, the FUN part is that when it's on the forum, you get to have everyone else respond, which is, as you point out, ENTERTAINING; and that, my good fellow, is what the point of this forum is - like-minded people entertaining each other - didja notice what Gene wrote about this place being "a joke"? look, I mean every so often there's a serious discussion, but most peeps come here for sh1ts and giggles and socializing with others w/similar interests; and part of the fun involves toying around w/folks like you who come on here announcing that they are the Shizzle with the Drizzle - I mean, u may b as BadAsz™ as you claim, but no one really cares, because it doesn't inform the dynamic here;

but I'll tell you what, if you ever do come up to NYC to visit Novell and I have nothing more important to do at the time, I will meet up with you and say everything I have said on here directly to your face, if that will make you happy; now, I don't know if you would want to fight me as a result, personally I am not looking for that sort of thing, but if you really really want to, then I will extend my standard invitation to you that I have done to others here, which is that we can chat with staffs, full contact, no gear, no rules; FYI, my reason for choosing this is because this was the tradition I trained in under the late Sifu Chan Tai San, and he was noted for settling all his debts this way, so out of respect for my late Sifu, I carry on his tradition in the same manner; of course, you will probably win, because I am not a fighter by trade, I am on the other end of the equation, so this stuff is really just a hobby for me; but since you really seem intent on taking things in this direction, then I'll be happy to oblige you;

regards;

[SoCo KungFu]

SoCo KungFu..I don't know why I'm giving you even this much info (you must've caught me in a good mood..lol), but if you MUST know, try contacting Ike Stafford/Fight Game Productions, Springfield, MO. He ran the fights for all of my guys in Springfield from '99-2001. If you don't know who Ike Stafford is, then you don't know your fight promotion game even half as good as you think you do, my friend.
Also..MasterKiller, Thanks for the pic man! I'm using it for my facebook profile pic..lol. BTW..it's also posted on the website if you care to have a look.

Oh, I almost forgot the link op:

http://www.wudangzenfightclub.yolasite.com/

P.S. MK..Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah (I didn't want you to accuse me of not keeping my word).

MMA wasn't legalized in Missouri until 2007. What's your next excuse?

[MasterKiller]

for someone who claims I'm not worth his time, you sure do spend a disproportionately large amount of your time hitting my site .

I never said you weren't worth my time. I love exposing wanna-be d0uche bags.

[MasterKiller]

MMA wasn't legalized in Missouri until 2007. What's your next excuse?

He's teh BAD BOY, so of course his fights were illegal.

I'm still waiting for an explanation on his blog about these "divisions" in Muay Thai and MMA.

[BGZ BadBoy]

MK..Anyone is allowed to apply for WTBA membership directly with Erle if they so choose. I don't ALLOW anyone to join his organization..he makes that decision. How could I possibly hope to ALLOW someone to join HIS organization? I will tell you this, however, as a member of the WTBA since 1993, if someone applies (who is a student of mine) and the application is sent with my recommendation, their membership is much more likely to be accepted..period. Of course, again, they are free to apply directly..I have no control over what anyone else does or does not allow. If that's all you have man, you're outta luck, my friend..lol.

Oh, and Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah..lol.

[MasterKiller]

MK..Anyone is allowed to apply for WTBA membership directly with Erle if they so choose. I don't ALLOW anyone to join his organization..he makes that decision. How could I possibly hope to ALLOW someone to join HIS organization? I will tell you this, however, as a member of the WTBA since 1993, if someone applies (who is a student of mine) and the application is sent with my recommendation, their membership is much more likely to be accepted..period. Of course, again, they are free to apply directly..I have no control over what anyone else does or does not allow. If that's all you have man, you're outta luck, my friend..lol.

Oh, and Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah..lol.

So what are they getting for their $10, again?

[SoCo KungFu]

So what are they getting for their $10, again?

Postage dude. Don't you know how expensive it is to send a big ol' pile of bull****?

[BGZ BadBoy]

BTW, SoCo..all of Ike Stafford's contact and information is clearly posted on my website. Beyond that, I don't know what to tell you. Seems like maybe the sand from MK's vagigi leaked into yours during one of your "private moments" or something..lol. You really should be more careful.

As for MK..you got nothing man..period. Personally, I find your endless grasping at straws beyond entertaining. "I hate this guy so much! He just makes me so mad!"..lol. I can hear you from here, man..lol.

[MasterKiller]

Can't answer the question without sounding like a d0uche, huh? :rolleyes:

How about the names of those fighters? Copy and Pasting PROMOTER information from Ike Stafford's website onto your own without any details about fighters he promoted for you doesn't automatically make you legitimate (well, maybe in wanna-be world it does).

[BGZ BadBoy]

Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah..lol. Afraid to give him a call, too?..lol. Not gonna pap feed you, man..lol.

[MasterKiller]

I charge people $10 to make calls to promoters inquiring about fights that never happened.

[BGZ BadBoy]

Good for you..lol. Oh, and Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah..lol.

[uki]

somebody has some major insecurity issues...

[taai gihk yahn]

somebody has some major insecurity issues...
and doesn't even have the courtesy to answer my invitation to kick it "old school" either - how boorish...

[BGZ BadBoy]

Ok, TGY..if I'm ever in NYC, you're on. Considering you've never made the effort to contact me personally to set anything up, does that make you feel better?..lol.

[Lucas]

why do you say you would lose a staff fight anyway, u may not be a fighter by trade, but you know the staff. pretty important in a staff fight id say :p

[BGZ BadBoy]

Oh, and you're right..I would thoroughly kick your ass..lol.

[Lucas]

Oh, and you're right..I would completely kick your ass..lol.

ur pretty good with a staff?

[uki]

Oh, and you're right..I would thoroughly kick your ass..lol.hc1 box 98... 4th driveway on the right at the top of the hill... mine is the house beyond the stone arch - be nice on your approach or i may mistake you for a hostile individual. :)

[taai gihk yahn]

Ok, TGY..if I'm ever in NYC, you're on.
great; looking forward to meeting you! now, just so I'm clear - when you say "we're on" do you mean for the me saying to you in person everything I've written here (I should probably bring notes then, as I do tend to go on a bit), or "we're on" as in you just want to skip right to the "gong gwun" part?


Considering you've never made the effort to contact me personally to set anything up, does that make you feel better?..lol.
:confused::confused::confused:
I'm still really confused about this whole contacting you personally bit - how does doing it here on the forum make it any different? is there something that you would say to me "in person" (phone / e-mail) that would be different from on here? I mean, the only REAL difference is that, let's say we agree to meet up via phone / e-mail and then, say, someone doesn't show up, or back-tracks, or whatever, well, then there'd be no witnesses that anything was ever agreed on in the first place, right? this way, at least, there are plenty of witnesses who can attest that a meeting was arranged, so if someone doesn't step-up, there's a public record of their shame;

BTW, I pick Uki as my second; in fact, we can go out to his crib in PA and do it there, it's much more conducive of a setting for "old school"; and he's got a cool backyard that's very bagua friendly, I think you'd like it!

You're proud and touchy - I like you, little man!

[taai gihk yahn]

hc1 box 98... 4th driveway on the right at the top of the hill... mine is the house beyond the stone arch - be nice on your approach or i may mistake you for a hostile individual. :)

see?!? he psychically intuited me and has already offered the venue! It's KARMA!!!!

end of August is good for me; how about you?

[taai gihk yahn]

Oh, and you're right..I would thoroughly kick your ass..lol.

excellent! we can make a day of it!

[taai gihk yahn]

ur pretty good with a staff?

I guess that we'll find out, eh?

[uki]

BTW, I pick Uki as my second; in fact, we can go out to his crib in PA and do it there, it's much more conducive of a setting for "old school"; and he's got a cool backyard that's very bagua friendly, I think you'd like it!it's my FRONT yard - get it straight. :p


You're proud and touchy - I like you, little man!i think you need a pink bandana too!!! :D

[SoCo KungFu]

awww... you look pretty ****ing tough with that blue bandana sticking out of your back pocket... LOL perhaps a few years of iron ball juggling and your arms might not look like brittle twigs. :)

**** even Uki taking shots at him. I don't think anyone has united KFM like BGqueerBoy. Even HW8 had some people with him.

[BGZ BadBoy]

TGY..I'll accept your challenge. If I'm ever in NYC, the first thing I'll do is contact you. You of course know, that the moment I do you'll dissapear on me, but I promise not to shame you here when that happens..lol. And yes, you can have a second, of course (you'll most-likely need all the help you can get..lol).

[SoCo KungFu]

TGY..I'll accept your challenge. If I'm ever in NYC, the first thing I'll do is contact you. You of course know, that the moment I do you'll dissapear on me, but I promise not to shame you here when that happens..lol. And yes, you can have a second, of course (you'll most-likely need all the help you can get..lol).

Because your Urkel-esque stature is just sooooo impossing right?

[uki]

TGY..I'll accept your challenge. If I'm ever in NYC, the first thing I'll do is contact you. You of course know, that the moment I do you'll dissapear on me, but I promise not to shame you here when that happens..lol. And yes, you can have a second, of course (you'll most-likely need all the help you can get..lol).you are a ***** ass mother****er... you lame ass piece of **** wouldn't last two ****ing seconds spreading block in the snow... you are a lousy POS that has next to zero self-integrity or esteem... you wouldn't know how to wipe your ****ing ass without toilet paper... come to my house. i double ****ing triple eat your ass for breakfast dare you to show up on my doorstep for a lesson... i can guarrantee you will have earned your respect to talk as you so please, otherwise, if you do not respond, you will be the sole cantakerous ****ing sore that the whole forum will urinate upon out of loss for self amusment, because after your bit of stupidity, no idiot in the broadband will set foot around here. :p

[taai gihk yahn]

TGY..I'll accept your challenge. If I'm ever in NYC, the first thing I'll do is contact you. You of course know, that the moment I do you'll dissapear on me, but I promise not to shame you here when that happens..lol. And yes, you can have a second, of course (you'll most-likely need all the help you can get..lol).
first off, it's not a challenge - we are not allowed to issue challenges here on the forum (seriously - Gene will delete the thread and ban anyone who does that); we're just meeting up for a little chit-chat and demonstration;

anyway, it'll be really impressive when you school me, considering I haven't fought in years and don't train martially anymore; I hope that it''l be worth the trouble and 10 seconds out of your life that it will take for you to take care of me;

[SoCo KungFu]

you are a ***** ass mother****er... you lame ass piece of **** wouldn't last two ****ing seconds spreading block in the snow... you are a lousy POS that has next to zero self-integrity or esteem... you wouldn't know how to wipe your ****ing ass without toilet paper... come to my house. i double ****ing triple eat your ass for breakfast dare you to show up on my doorstep for a lesson... i can guarrantee you will have earned your respect to talk as you so please, otherwise, if you do not respond, you will be the sole cantakerous ****ing sore that the whole forum will urinate upon out of loss for self amusment, because after your bit of stupidity, no idiot in the broadband will set foot around here. :p

Uki just gained +8 cool points :D

[taai gihk yahn]

you are a ***** ass mother****er... you lame ass piece of **** wouldn't last two ****ing seconds spreading block in the snow... you are a lousy POS that has next to zero self-integrity or esteem... you wouldn't know how to wipe your ****ing ass without toilet paper... come to my house. i double ****ing triple eat your ass for breakfast dare you to show up on my doorstep for a lesson... i can guarrantee you will have earned your respect to talk as you so please, otherwise, if you do not respond, you will be the sole cantakerous ****ing sore that the whole forum will urinate upon out of loss for self amusment, because after your bit of stupidity, no idiot in the broadband will set foot around here. :p

and there you see it folks - Uki unleashed! (seriously - first time he's ever responded that way to anyone - wow...)

ok, hold on - are you going to do this before or after I meet up with him? because if it's before, there won't be anything left of him to talk to and that wouldn't be any fun at all...

[uki]

Uki just gained +8 cool points.8?? i feel cheated... it has to be 9 or nothing. :p

[BGZ BadBoy]

SoCo..seriously, is that all you've got? Really? I'm losing all respect for you, man (not that I had ANY WHATSOEVER to begin with..lol).

[Frost]

He's teh BAD BOY, so of course his fights were illegal.

I'm still waiting for an explanation on his blog about these "divisions" in Muay Thai and MMA.

good luck i have been asking for those since he signed up and get no response...

[goju]

you are a ***** ass mother****er... you lame ass piece of **** wouldn't last two ****ing seconds spreading block in the snow... you are a lousy POS that has next to zero self-integrity or esteem... you wouldn't know how to wipe your ****ing ass without toilet paper... come to my house. i double ****ing triple eat your ass for breakfast dare you to show up on my doorstep for a lesson... i can guarrantee you will have earned your respect to talk as you so please, otherwise, if you do not respond, you will be the sole cantakerous ****ing sore that the whole forum will urinate upon out of loss for self amusment, because after your bit of stupidity, no idiot in the broadband will set foot around here. :p


now thats telling em what for!

[taai gihk yahn]

it's my FRONT yard - get it straight. :p
sorry:eek::eek::eek:


i think you need a pink bandana too!!! :D
funny thing, one arrived anonymously in the mail with a Missouri postmark just the other day :confused::confused::confused:


**** even Uki taking shots at him. I don't think anyone has united KFM like BGqueerBoy.
LOL - see? he's done something already no one else could!


Even HW8 had some people with him.
speaking of which, our good friend seems to be MIA - or maybe he's lurking and just declining to post so as not to also be in agreement with everyone else!

[SoCo KungFu]

8?? i feel cheated... it has to be 9 or nothing. :p

We all have to have something to strive for...only 72 more and you can trade them in for:

"+3 lamentation of womenz"

[uki]

now thats telling em what for!i don't recall if it was between a sip of beer or a hit on the pipe. :D

[SoCo KungFu]

speaking of which, our good friend seems to be MIA - or maybe he's lurking and just declining to post so as not to also be in agreement with everyone else!

I don't think the forum-verse could handle that....

[BGZ BadBoy]

UKI..seriously, you're showing your idiot colors. You've made no more attempt to contact me than anyone else here has..so step-up, or STFU..lol. See, here we call idiots like you, "Mouth-runners", and they're a dime a dozen, man. All talk until you drop them like a sack of dirt..lol. Just another chump, another day, it's all the same. Color me COMPLETELY unimpressed..

[ghostexorcist]

which jesus is better chinese jesushttp://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:z5Vls4SAqpKFNM:http://1812.img.pp.sohu.com.cn/images/blog/2008/6/28/20/5/11b746c596e.jpg

or white jesus http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:7dsehjm_w7gIWM:http://hulkhatetimetravel.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/gesumise.jpg

i rest my case
According to Stewie (http://staging.vsocial.net/video/?d=31745), Jesus is Chinese and his last name is Hong. This fits because I've heard a lot of people scream "JESUS H. CHRIST!" You've gotta remember Christ is only a title and not a surname.

[Lucas]

UKI..seriously, you're showing your idiot colors. You've made no more attempt to contact me than anyone else here has..so step-up, or STFU..lol. See, here we call idiots like you, "Mouth-runners", and they're a dime a dozen, man. All talk until you drop them like a sack of dirt..lol. Just another chump, another day, it's all the same. Color me COMPLETELY unimpressed..

how are you not being a "mouth-runner" uki didnt call u on ur credentials he basically just said he could rip you to ****....so why dont you contact him? its a 2 way street you can contact people to buddy. at this point he doesnt need to contact you....you need to contact him. i believe he gave you his contact info. contact him or your just a 'mouth runner' right?

[BGZ BadBoy]

Lucas..Uki's a mouth-breather, I take him about as seriously as I do anyone else here. The guy can barely form a cohesive sentence, much less manage to do much else..lol. I don't see his phone number or personal e-mail posted anywhere..all I have are the ramblings of a lunatic about an address which may, or may not, even be valid. So, I think it's pretty apparent where that's going.

Secondly..as much fun as it's been to watch several of the idiots on this forum run circles around themselves in numerous vain attempts to pin me down on something, anything, I've grown rather bored with the whole fiasco. MasterKiller, keep an eye on the website man..some good things coming your way..lol. To everyone else, peace, I guess, or whatever you deserve dependent upon our conversations..lol. Maybe I'll chime in if I find that I just can't help myself, but we'll have to see. 'Till next time, Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah..lol.

[taai gihk yahn]

how are you not being a "mouth-runner" uki didnt call u on ur credentials he basically just said he could rip you to ****....so why dont you contact him? its a 2 way street you can contact people to buddy. at this point he doesnt need to contact you....you need to contact him. i believe he gave you his contact info. contact him or your just a 'mouth runner' right?
Funny, usualy Dale is the one giving this speech...

[Dale Dugas]

I have no idea who this guy is or if he is real or not.

Dont care.

Life is short.

Train and move on.

[taai gihk yahn]

I have no idea who this guy is or if he is real or not.

Dont care.

Life is short.

Train and move on.

Really? Ur FB friends w him

anyway, he seems ok, just has some free floating agression issues that maybe I can help him work through

[Dale Dugas]

not any more.

I friended him before all this started.

I really do not know him.

I can help him as well as its obvious he has liver qi stagnation issues.

[taai gihk yahn]

not any more.

I friended him before all this started.

I really do not know him.

I can help him as well as its obvious he has liver qi stagnation issues.

That wud b good of u; incidently do u think that ox tongue palm has deleterious impact on meridian flow? I always wondered about that

[Dale Dugas]

no idea as I learned that the fingers should always be spread a tad and relaxed.

One would think that always making the spear shape would cause qi flow to be impeded over time.

[David Jamieson]

bad liver chi = anger issue = no good juju :eek:

hmmmmmn.

Hey, here's a project, how can we cooperate with this fellow in the spirit of not spamming and belligerence only when it serves to humourously amuse others.

That would be some Kung fu!

Or, move on and practice is good too.

How many more things could we try?

[taai gihk yahn]

no idea as I learned that the fingers should always be spread a tad and relaxed.

One would think that always making the spear shape would cause qi flow to be impeded over time.

yes, that was my sense as well - not saying anything about fighting, but from a purely health / meridian perspective it does seem to conflict with the concept of "cho wun / siu ji" (seated wrist / spread fingers); even BP Chan, who I believe was of Yin style lineage (I could be wrong) taught about the fingers being spaced like tiles on a roof;

well anyway, neither here nor there; but thanks for the input

[Dale Dugas]

Brother you are always welcome

[MasterKiller]

MasterKiller, keep an eye on the website man..some good things coming your way...

I charge $10 to look for updates on websites. You'll be receiving my bill.

[goju]

i have the feeling this willb e another jfsusa bullshido fiasco if he meets with anyone:D

[taai gihk yahn]

bad liver chi = anger issue = no good juju :eek:

hmmmmmn.

Hey, here's a project, how can we cooperate with this fellow in the spirit of not spamming and belligerence only when it serves to humourously amuse others.

That would be some Kung fu!

Or, move on and practice is good too.

How many more things could we try?
well, I am going to meet up w/him if he ever comes to NY, although he seems more bent on giving me a lesson as opposed to my saying anything to his face, which was really his original contention, that no one was saying anything to him in person - I tried to oblige and he jumped right over that part! well, maybe him taking 10 seconds to school me (because really, he's a skilled and respected sifu, and I'm a nobody, so if it took any longer that would be really embarassing for him!) will help resolve some of that upward raging liver fire - being a healer is not always easy!

[taai gihk yahn]

i have the feeling this willb e another jfsusa bullshido fiasco if he meets with anyone:D

well I'm not bringing any androgynous kickboxers w/me, that's for sure!

[goju]

well I'm not bringing any androgynous kickboxers w/me, that's for sure!

d amn i was hoping for that:D

[taai gihk yahn]

Brother you are always welcome

likewise; sorry I won't be seeing u at ZCF, was planning to drive up on the Sunday like last year :(
hope the clinical rots r going well! light at end of tunnel ≠ train and all that...

[taai gihk yahn]

d amn i was hoping for that:D

I'll tell ya what - cut ur hair and I'll send u sum estrogen supplements (wife's a gynie, so we hav those laying around the house everywhere) and a bus ticket and we'll just see where that goes, 'k?

[BGZ BadBoy]

Allow me to chime in here from a strictly non-flaming, purely informational perspective (I know, I'm just as surprised as you).
BP Chan was JRQ BaGuaZhang lineage..not Yin. NOT calling you on this, just pointing out the difference.
Second, on the issue of the so-called "ox-tongue" palm shape. You'll likely find it to be a matter of opinion..ask 100 different people, get 100 different answers. However, from my experience, the palm shape has the effect of "consolidating" and "condensing" the energy deep into the muscles, tendons, and bones of the hand, in a sense "focusing" and directing the energy and thereby strengthening the entire structure, right out to the fingertips, if you will. I know of no ill health effects from the correct practice of the Yin Style palm, however, as I also practice JRQ BaGuaZhang, perhaps any possible negative effects have been effectively counterbalanced.

On a side note..practicing the JRQ palm correctly has the effect of "pooling" energy into the palm (laogong point) as well as strengthening the fingers when the correct "Dragon Palm" shape is properly maintained. This in turn, stimulates all of the associated internal organs represented by the various meridians located throughout the hand.

Now..chew on that..lol. Peace.

[goju]

I'll tell ya what - cut ur hair and I'll send u sum estrogen supplements (wife's a gynie, so we hav those laying around the house everywhere) and a bus ticket and we'll just see where that goes, 'k?

ive been told im pretty like a girl before so this may work

[taai gihk yahn]

Allow me to chime in here from a strictly non-flaming, purely informational perspective (I know, I'm just as surprised as you..lol).
never! we KNEW you'd come around!!! ;)


BP Chan was JRQ BaGuaZhang lineage..not Yin. NOT calling you on this, just pointing out the difference.
thanks for the clarification; I was never certain, I only trained with him for ~a year like 15 yrs. ago (although I had hung out w/one of his in-the-door guys for a bit longer before I was "introduced"), and he was very tight lipped about his background (as you no doubt know); the intimation I got was it was Yin Fu, but hey, guyess it wasn't!


Second, on the issue of the so-called "ox-tongue" palm shape. You'll likely find it to be a matter of opinion..ask 100 different people, get 100 different answers..lol. However, from my experience, the palm shape has the effect of "consolidating" and "condensing" the energy deep into the muscles, tendons, and bones of the hand, in a sense "focusing" and directing the energy and thereby strengthening the entire structure, right out to the fingertips, if you will. I know of no ill health effects from the correct practice of the Yin Style palm, however, as I also practice JRQ BaGuaZhang, perhaps any possible negative effects have been effectively counterbalanced.
yeah, that would make sense, I would think one would want to balance out that way, even if it was w/some other more "diffusionary" qigong; the palm shape is almost exactly the same as one where we do a "condensing" in the yik gan ging I do, and then you do a "dragon" palm thing after...


On a side note..practicing the JRQ palm correctly has the effect of "pooling" energy into the palm (laogong point) as well as strengthening the fingers when the correct "Dragon Palm" shape is properly maintained. This in turn, stimulates all of the associated internal organs represented by the various meridians located throughout the hand.
Now..chew on that..lol. Peace.
nothing to chew on - it all makes perfect sense, actually;
as for the dragon palm pooling effect on internal structure, anatomically it makes sense - when u do that palm correctly, you are stimulating flexor dig. profundus, which ties directly into interosseous membrane of arm; copupled w/the coiling walk stimulating the i.o. of the lowere leg, u are getting, I believe, a very direct input to deep connective tissue which is embryologically connected to the layers covering spinal cord (dura mater / arachnoid / pia), so, in a sense you are getting very direct stimulation to the brain /spina cord complex and, vry importantly, the autonomic nervous system, and that is the "connection" in terms of generating organ health; FYI, a lot of this comes via osteopathic theory / methodology, so it's western but not exactly mainstream (lots of interesting crossovers btw osteo and TCM, actually);

see, we might actually have something to talk about after you get down thrashing me!

[taai gihk yahn]

.
BP Chan was JRQ BaGuaZhang lineage...
BTW, in a year I did only first palm (he was a "one-palm-a-year" kinda guy), but we also did a sequence of 8 static postures (mother palms?), a circle walk routine where you go from arms at side down low, palms down, to out to side at shoulder level palms up, then Lion Holds Ball and Monkey Hangs on Tree (I think?), then reverse direction and come back down; we also did something called "square stepping", a "seven stars" arm conditioning drill and a sequence of 10 qigong (Rudy Curry has it up on YT); is that similar to what your branch does? just curious;

[taai gihk yahn]

ive been told im pretty like a girl before so this may work

yer a flower, y'are...