Real Kung Fu or Not?

[bprm4rnt]

How does one know that the Kung Fu they are learning is real Kung Fu and not a "water-down" version of the Kung Fu? Even of the current Sifu's out there, how do you know that what was taught to you is something real/authentic and not a "water-down" version?

[taai gihk yahn]

if the guy teaching you is wearing robes and has a shaved head, it's da r3alz

anything else is cr@p

[SanHeChuan]

You educate your self. About your style, about kung fu, and martial arts in general. You read kung fu magazine, you watch video's, you cross hands and you make comparisons. The only real way to tell is through experience, if you're a newb someone else's experience. ;)

[goju]

if the guy teaching you is wearing robes and has a shaved head, it's da r3alz

anything else is cr@p

he has to be a hermit too and perferably blind:D

[Scott R. Brown]

There is no such thing as REAL Kung Fu!

It is an arbitrary designation designed to make what I learn BETTER than what you learn, which makes me SMARTER than you, COOLER than you, MORE DANGEROUS than you, MORE IMPORTANT than you, and MORE MAGNANIMOUS than you, because I allow that you are unaware that your Kung Fu is NOT authentic and that you cannot help it because you are nothing more than an innocent dupe! (In short, you cannot help it that you are stupid and I am wise!)

I am waiting for you to acknowledge my beneficent WONDERFULNESSICTY for deigning to take the time to answer your silly question with my patient ALL KNOWING knowlegeability!

<And don't for get to bow in my presence!!!>

BTW I am serious...just using satire to illustrate the point!

[No_Know]

You might not get to know. But take what you get. Learn that well. Then be appropriate. You can tell if a block misses a certain attack. Adjust what you were doing to find the allowed variableness that keeps that technique that technique. Even watered-down material contains a grain if original Truth. from the seed grows the flower. Practice with Appropriateness and let your! Kung-Fu learning and ability Blossom.

No_Know

[mooyingmantis]

There is no such thing as REAL Kung Fu!

It is an arbitrary designation designed to make what I learn BETTER than what you learn, which makes me SMARTER than you, COOLER than you, MORE DANGEROUS than you, MORE IMPORTANT than you, and MORE MAGNANIMOUS than you, because I allow that you are unaware that your Kung Fu is NOT authentic and that you cannot help it because you are nothing more than an innocent dupe! (In short, you cannot help it that you are stupid and I am wise!)

I am waiting for you to acknowledge my beneficent WONDERFULNESSICTY for deigning to take the time to answer your silly question with my patient ALL KNOWING knowlegeability!

<And don't for get to bow in my presence!!!>

BTW I am serious...just using satire to illustrate the point!

Very true!

Unfortunately, most students will never know for several reasons:

1. Lineage means little. Some become lineage holders simply because there is no one else still alive or deemed worthy to be the "true" heir when an instructor passes away.

2. Instructors (Yip Man, Ueshiba, etc.) often change how and what they teach over the course of their teaching career. Which is the true kung fu?

3. Many Chinese instructors are unscrupulous and hold back instruction, or even purposefully teach things wrong to most of their students, while only teaching the "true" art to a select few. LOL! I always wonder how the select few really know if they were given the real deal or not. Maybe they were just patsies too!

4. Few instructors pass on a style without changes. No two people experience or interpret the same event in the same way. So changes are inevitable from generation to generation whether on purpose or not, whether realized or not.

I am more concerned with whether I am true to what I have been taught, rather than whether what I was taught is true or not.

Richard

[mawali]

The basic questions are as follows in finding out if you ware learning "real wushu':
1. Are you looking for forms and performance oriented gymnastics?
2. Are you looking for martial knowledge and experience?
3. What is your purpose? Gymnastic or martial

a. If gymnastic and competition based then the present wushu teachers are good for you, who ever they maybe. Invest in a teacher whose students have won tournaments if this is your goal. You cannot go wrong if this is the choice.

b. If you want martial, study 1 year with a wushu teacher then switch to shuaijiao!
Any good wushu teacher can teach competition based fitness so that is why I recommend. It is a learning tool. Shuaijiao is great for a young person who wishes to learn good skill.

[jdhowland]

I am more concerned with whether I am true to what I have been taught, rather than whether what I was taught is true or not.

Richard

Well put!

Most systems are modified to fit the changing times/cultures/values. That doesn't necessarily mean watered down, just adapted to fit the outlook of the teacher.

If the teaching involves more memorization than effort, you may have some blank spaces to fill in.

jd

[wiz cool c]

Most kung fu is watered down these days.I have been living and training in chia for four years now,and about 95 percent is taught fo exercise and health. I t is common to learn and practice the form with an occasional aplication being taught.

So,i would say does youyr teacher teach two man sets,or drills,and do they spar regualary. This would be the way to know if what you are learning is watered down. At the same time you can alwaystrain application and fighting with your classmate on your own time.This is what i do.

[sanjuro_ronin]

How does one know that the Kung Fu they are learning is real Kung Fu and not a "water-down" version of the Kung Fu? Even of the current Sifu's out there, how do you know that what was taught to you is something real/authentic and not a "water-down" version?

How do you know?
Simple really.
If when you need it, it is there and it works, then you have learned the real kung fu (whatever the **** that means).
Everythign else is window dressing.

[bawang]

How does one know that the Kung Fu they are learning is real Kung Fu and not a "water-down" version of the Kung Fu? Even of the current Sifu's out there, how do you know that what was taught to you is something real/authentic and not a "water-down" version?

if your sifu has huge muscle and fist the size of a big pot he has good kung fu

[David Jamieson]

How does one know that the Kung Fu they are learning is real Kung Fu and not a "water-down" version of the Kung Fu? Even of the current Sifu's out there, how do you know that what was taught to you is something real/authentic and not a "water-down" version?

You don't know. As someone who is just beginning, it's likely that you don't know anything and therefore cannot make such an assessment. Especially in regards to esoterica as associated with Kung Fu practice such as qi gong, iron skills, meditation and all the other stuff associated with learning and practicing Kung Fu.

For kuen, or sets if it is a mainstream style, you should be able to compare a set with someone else from that style.

so, while it may not be 100% the same, it will have marks of recognition in the pattern and types of techniques expressed.

all teachings are not equal regardless of the field of study.
don't expect to get golden eggs from tin soldiers. :)

[MightyB]

Watch a class and then participate with your BS meter on. Don't listen to all the mumbo-jumbo pseudo-science yoda-psychology that most teachers try to throw around. Ask yourself- is what they are showing real, and is what they are attempting to do a teachable skill. Can they demonstrate their claims on a non-student. For instance, if someone says that they can do a no-touch knockout, ask them to try it on you. They'll of course back off saying something like you don't have the ability to withstand such a force of chi... blah blah blah. It fails the test. It's not a useable or teachable skill.

I always asked myself this question to keep it "real". If I were to face someone who's put in equal time and is physically equal to me in another style such as Thai Boxing- would what I'm doing and practicing be effective against them. If the answer is "no", look at the questions I asked above. It could be that the style is real, but your approach to learning or the teacher's approach to instructing might not be effective. That you can change. BS will always be BS.

[MightyB]

a good instructor can demonstrate even something that seems to be impossible:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hebr2ytgv2I&feature=related

[jmd161]

How does one know that the Kung Fu they are learning is real Kung Fu and not a "water-down" version of the Kung Fu? Even of the current Sifu's out there, how do you know that what was taught to you is something real/authentic and not a "water-down" version?

Actually, it's fairly simple...

If your sifu can show you what, when, and why you use given techniques with the proper speed, and power... chances are you're getting the real deal. If he can explain as well as show you the do's and don't and why it's a do or don't you're proably on the right track. If he's willing to deal with your asking questions you've got a GREAT sifu.

[iron_leg_dave]

It should impress you deeply, not because it is flashy or whatever, but because there is a powerful resonance of skill in the upper level students.

[KC Elbows]

There is no such thing as REAL Kung Fu!

It is an arbitrary designation designed to make what I learn BETTER than what you learn, which makes me SMARTER than you, COOLER than you, MORE DANGEROUS than you, MORE IMPORTANT than you, and MORE MAGNANIMOUS than you, because I allow that you are unaware that your Kung Fu is NOT authentic and that you cannot help it because you are nothing more than an innocent dupe! (In short, you cannot help it that you are stupid and I am wise!)

I am waiting for you to acknowledge my beneficent WONDERFULNESSICTY for deigning to take the time to answer your silly question with my patient ALL KNOWING knowlegeability!

<And don't for get to bow in my presence!!!>

BTW I am serious...just using satire to illustrate the point!

I've seen this tactic somewhere before!:D

[PlumDragon]

Actually, it's fairly simple...

If your sifu can show you what, when, and why you use given techniques with the proper speed, and power... chances are you're getting the real deal. If he can explain as well as show you the do's and don't and why it's a do or don't you're proably on the right track. If he's willing to deal with your asking questions you've got a GREAT sifu.I dont think its this simple:

If you know nothing about and have no training in martial arts or fighting, then even a shoddy teacher who has little in the way of significant skill can successfully handle situations above your capability, giving the *perception* that he has a high degree of skill, when in actuality, his skill may be quite low in comparison to others; like, for example, those who constantly pressure test their skills and dont waste time perfecting forms and other non-interactive drills. With everything else, it becomes an issue of relativity--even someone who has trained minimally will have better timing than someone who has never trained at all.

Unfortunately, most students never get the chance to see the error in the line of logic youve portrayed above and go on over the years learning the same old stuff, always amazed by their teacher who seems to perform things better. Its certainly no surprise, as our growth is spurred at a rate directly proportional to the class of our stimulus.

Answering questions reveals nothing. Martial arts is about the performative, not the informative...

[jmd161]

Answering questions reveals nothing. Martial arts is about the performative, not the informative...

I disagree!

From my experience answering questions means a hell of a lot! Most of the shoddy or inept sifu out there can't and won't answer many questions. When I say asking questions I mean the tough questions like take down defense or dealing with a grappler etc... Then if they do answer... you hit them with more questions or explain why that elbow to the back of the head against the shoot or take down is not a good idea. Any sifu worth anything is willing to go there with you not just speak theory!



I dont think its this simple:

If you know nothing about and have no training in martial arts or fighting, then even a shoddy teacher who has little in the way of significant skill can successfully handle situations above your capability, giving the *perception* that he has a high degree of skill, when in actuality, his skill may be quite low in comparison to others; like, for example, those who constantly pressure test their skills and dont waste time perfecting forms and other non-interactive drills. With everything else, it becomes an issue of relativity--even someone who has trained minimally will have better timing than someone who has never trained at all.

Unfortunately, most students never get the chance to see the error in the line of logic youve portrayed above and go on over the years learning the same old stuff, always amazed by their teacher who seems to perform things better. Its certainly no surprise, as our growth is spurred at a rate directly proportional to the class of our stimulus.

I'm not talking about forms work i'm talking real life self defense! I don't want to hear that your art is too deadly to show me techniques or any of the millions of other excuses. I agree anyone with a bit of skill can look good to a beginner I'm talking about the real stuff getting down and dirty a good sifu can explain the when, where, and why behind what you're doing. They also can show you the difference between movie kung fu and real kung fu as well as real speed and power.

[SoCo KungFu]

I disagree!

From my experience answering questions means a hell of a lot! Most of the shoddy or inept sifu out there can't and won't answer many questions. When I say asking questions I mean the tough questions like take down defense or dealing with a grappler etc... Then if they do answer... you hit them with more questions or explain why that elbow to the back of the head against the shoot or take down is not a good idea. Any sifu worth anything is willing to go there with you not just speak theory!


I'm not talking about forms work i'm talking real life self defense! I don't want to hear that your art is too deadly to show me techniques or any of the millions of other excuses. I agree anyone with a bit of skill can look good to a beginner I'm talking about the real stuff getting down and dirty a good sifu can explain the when, where, and why behind what you're doing. They also can show you the difference between movie kung fu and real kung fu as well as real speed and power.

The thing about it is, at least for me, I really don't care what you have to say. Not just being disrespectful, but I'm a mechanical learner. Don't tell me. Show me. Teach by doing it, not talking about it. When a student brings up a question, do it. Let them see right there whether it works or not. If it does great, if not scrap it. Teach by doing, then they can spend the time learning it by doing it as well, be it sparring, rolling whatever.

See when you approach everything from that way, those questions aren't hard at all. Defending a takedown is really very basic. If you've done it, its very easy to show. Its very easy to transmit. And its really a been there done that kinda thing. Which is good. Because it means you did it yourself to find out it works, you continued making it work and then you taught it by doing it and the students are doing it themselves. THIS is why you can be pulling techniques with only few months of BJJ. Why you can be competing at least beginner level in boxing and what have you.

This is just as applicable to kung fu. Talking about correct structure is just going to get you out of breath. Go grab a phone book, hold it to your chest and have your students hit it. Let them learn what it really feels like to do it correctly. That you can't forget. That's the type of thing you can't get from talking, from forms. Go hit something and really learn. That's why you hear so much from these old condescending Chinese dudes saying gwai lo can't do kung fu. Because they didn't teach right. Its not that people aren't trying (well many aren't) but that the ones that are, don't know any better because they haven't felt it themselves.

[jmd161]

The thing about it is, at least for me, I really don't care what you have to say. Not just being disrespectful, but I'm a mechanical learner. Don't tell me. Show me. Teach by doing it, not talking about it. When a student brings up a question, do it. Let them see right there whether it works or not. If it does great, if not scrap it. Teach by doing, then they can spend the time learning it by doing it as well, be it sparring, rolling whatever.

See when you approach everything from that way, those questions aren't hard at all. Defending a takedown is really very basic. If you've done it, its very easy to show. Its very easy to transmit. And its really a been there done that kinda thing. Which is good. Because it means you did it yourself to find out it works, you continued making it work and then you taught it by doing it and the students are doing it themselves. THIS is why you can be pulling techniques with only few months of BJJ. Why you can be competing at least beginner level in boxing and what have you.

This is just as applicable to kung fu. Talking about correct structure is just going to get you out of breath. Go grab a phone book, hold it to your chest and have your students hit it. Let them learn what it really feels like to do it correctly. That you can't forget. That's the type of thing you can't get from talking, from forms. Go hit something and really learn. That's why you hear so much from these old condescending Chinese dudes saying gwai lo can't do kung fu. Because they didn't teach right. Its not that people aren't trying (well many aren't) but that the ones that are, don't know any better because they haven't felt it themselves.

Didn't I just say the same thing?

I said any sifu worth anything is going to go there with you and show you the speed and power that's needed and you can feel. Maybe I worded it wrong I do tend to do that but that's what I was saying.

[SoCo KungFu]

Didn't I just say the same thing?

I said any sifu worth anything is going to go there with you and show you the speed and power that's needed and you can feel. Maybe I worded it wrong I do tend to do that but that's what I was saying.

Maybe. I didn't get the impression when reading it. But cool we on same page then.

[SevenStar]

How does one know that the Kung Fu they are learning is real Kung Fu and not a "water-down" version of the Kung Fu? Even of the current Sifu's out there, how do you know that what was taught to you is something real/authentic and not a "water-down" version?

If you are learning how to fight, getting in shape, or achieving whatever goals you have, does it really matter? If so, why?

[SevenStar]

You might not get to know. But take what you get. Learn that well. Then be appropriate. You can tell if a block misses a certain attack. Adjust what you were doing to find the allowed variableness that keeps that technique that technique. Even watered-down material contains a grain if original Truth. from the seed grows the flower. Practice with Appropriateness and let your! Kung-Fu learning and ability Blossom.

No_Know

whoa...when did you go back to typing this way as opposed to the old indirectness~ish...some might say?

[SevenStar]

The basic questions are as follows in finding out if you ware learning "real wushu':
1. Are you looking for forms and performance oriented gymnastics?
2. Are you looking for martial knowledge and experience?
3. What is your purpose? Gymnastic or martial

a. If gymnastic and competition based then the present wushu teachers are good for you, who ever they maybe. Invest in a teacher whose students have won tournaments if this is your goal. You cannot go wrong if this is the choice.

b. If you want martial, study 1 year with a wushu teacher then switch to shuaijiao!
Any good wushu teacher can teach competition based fitness so that is why I recommend. It is a learning tool. Shuaijiao is great for a young person who wishes to learn good skill.

illinois? do you train with either monkeyslap or brian ebble?

[uki]

good question... how do we really know we are investing good time in energy... :p

[thelegend731]

Well, you really don't know until you get out there. It is true, experience is the necessary gauge.

But if you really do want to go down the less trodden path, you must really have a yearning to evolve. You need to go out of your way to learn as much as you can to become the best you can. And with each experience and with each new piece of knowledge you gain, you may have a better gauge to measure what is real or not.

[SteveLau]

Some good posts here. Educate ourself is the key, say through research. Then we can compare our findings with what is being taught to us. Authentic kung fu can be good or not good. So is non-authentic one.



KC
Hong Kong

[thelegend731]

Research + Experience. That's the only surefire way.